Podcast Summary: "Rudy and the Death of Truth"
Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, justice, and the courts
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guest: Preet Bharara
Date: May 8, 2021
Overview
In this episode, Dahlia Lithwick explores the themes of accountability, truth, and consequences—or their absence—in the post-Trump era. With Preet Bharara, former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York, they discuss the lingering legal and moral challenges posed by the Trump administration, including investigations into Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani, the struggles of the Justice Department, and the broader crisis of truth in American civic life.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Framing the Moment: Six Months After the Election
(00:17–05:35)
- Dahlia opens by situating the episode in "Split Screen America"—a nation moving forward under Biden while parts of the Republican Party reside in an alternate reality denying the 2020 election outcome.
- The enduring question is whether there will be meaningful accountability for actions by Trump, his Justice Department, and his lawyers that subverted democracy.
- The stakes are high: without accountability, past misdeeds could easily recur in future administrations.
- Lithwick frames the choice: "the tension around looking forward, looking back, around accountability and institutional reform."
"The very idea of the rule of law obviously turns on whether there will be consequences or even minimal accountability..." (03:46)
2. On "Resistance" and the Rule of Law
(06:00–08:14)
- Preet rejects the label of "resistor," emphasizing his commitment to rule of law over politicized identification:
"I don't consider myself to be part of whatever is called resistance... I care about the rule of law and the justice system and equality before the law..." (06:04)
- Both agree the justice axis is distinct from left/right politics; truth and justice should be nonpartisan.
3. Preet's Firing and Reflections on Staying vs. Leaving
(08:14–13:43)
- Discussion of whether it's better to leave an administration on principle or stay to mitigate harm.
- Preet clarifies he agreed to remain at Trump’s request based on understanding he would retain independence—until that became untenable:
"At some point... I would have probably had to go, either because I was being meddled with...or because perhaps the office would have been asked to take some position that we didn't think was right." (11:50)
4. Investigations Into Trump: What Matters and What’s Missing
(13:43–17:53)
-
Preet distinguishes between civil and criminal cases Trump is facing but highlights the Manhattan DA’s criminal investigation as most significant.
"Taking these actions indicates...that office believes there's a decent likelihood of a charge." (16:18)
-
Notes substantial investigative resources being devoted—implying real risk for Trump.
-
Preet observes there is likely misconduct “we don’t know about” and expresses skepticism that existing cases capture the full scope of potential wrongdoing.
5. Why Accountability Is Difficult—Mob Boss Playbook
(17:53–22:41)
- Many Trump actions were designed to avoid crossing clear legal lines, complicating efforts to hold him accountable.
- He likens Trump’s methods to those of a mob boss:
"He figures out a way to signal what he wants without outright saying it...it's been very hard to prosecute the mob boss for these precise reasons." (20:46)
6. The Two Kinds of Trump World Associates
(22:41–24:49)
- Lithwick and Preet discuss the two categories of Trump associates:
- Enablers who stopped short of criminality (e.g., Don McGahn)
- “Full on criminals” (Manafort, Cohen, Stone)
- Preet’s analogy: "You hire people who are bank robbers and you say, now I want you to kill the teller. Well, they're not going to kill the teller, but they'll rob the bank." (22:54)
- Irony: Trump can claim that the testimony of convicted aides is not credible—because they are liars.
7. The Rise and Fall of Rudy Giuliani
(24:49–33:13)
- The Ukraine scheme: Giuliani’s alleged effort to pressure Ukraine to announce investigations into Hunter Biden, potentially violating the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA).
- Preet characterizes Giuliani’s transformation:
"The Southern District hasn't changed. Rudy Giuliani has changed." (28:17)
- Giuliani once had legal gravitas and mentored Preet, but adopted unhinged tactics in recent years.
Memorable Quote:
"He's resorted to this kind of crazy rhetoric because that's all he has...But the straight out crazy, nonsensical nature of some of the things he says and does, that is new." (28:41)
8. Is Investigating FARA Violations Against Giuliani “Small Ball”?
(33:13–34:34)
- Preet is skeptical FARA is the sole focus, speculates bigger crimes (tax fraud, money laundering) could be under investigation.
9. Bill Barr: Institutional Damage Without Spectacle
(34:49–38:55)
- Barr, in Preet’s view, was more dangerous than Sessions due to his intelligence and subtlety.
- Barr changed the nature of DOJ by preemptively misrepresenting the Mueller Report.
"His ability to sort of undo in advance, preemptively the findings of the Mueller report...requires tremendous deafness that Rudy Giuliani is not capable of." (36:03)
- Discussion of political actors (e.g., Liz Cheney, Kevin McCarthy) who choose party over principle.
10. Accountability: Can the Courts Alone Restore Truth?
(40:32–44:32)
- Lithwick and Preet discuss Judge Amy Berman Jackson’s opinion calling out Barr for misrepresenting DOJ deliberations—but question whether such moments produce real accountability.
- Preet argues that only broad political rejection—not just prosecution—can bring true accountability:
"I worry that we place too much blame and burden on everyday prosecutors when the problem is much, much, much bigger than that." (46:47)
11. The Death of Truth: A Civic, Not Legal, Crisis
(47:47–52:47)
- Preet and Dahlia see truth itself as embattled—citing enduring lies about the 2020 election, vaccine resistance, and the January 6th insurrection.
"The damage is done when somebody says the truth is X and the other person says there's no such thing as truth...and you can't believe anything." (51:20)
- The rise of deep fakes and conspiracy theorists is identified as a structural threat to shared reality.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On resistance vs. the rule of law:
"I don't identify with any particular capital R resistance." (06:04, Preet Bharara) -
On the Trump mob-boss analog:
"I tend to agree with those people who liken him to a mob boss who doesn't have to say the words...it's been very hard to prosecute the mob boss for these precise reasons." (20:46, Preet Bharara) -
On Giuliani’s transformation:
"The straight out crazy, nonsensical nature of some of the things he says and does, that is new." (28:41, Preet Bharara) -
On Barr’s evolution:
"Bill Barr remained till the very end really sharp, really smart, which is why he was more dangerous than someone like Jeff Sessions." (35:35, Preet Bharara) -
On the limits of legal accountability:
"I'm one of the people—we're always talking about, you know, prosecutors, prosecutors, prosecutors. Even though I was one, they're not the panacea." (44:56, Preet Bharara) -
On the crisis of truth:
"The death of truth...is maybe the greatest tragedy of the Trump administration." (52:22, Preet Bharara)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 00:17 — Introduction, split-screen America post-2020 election
- 06:00 — Preet on rejecting the "resistance" label
- 08:14 — Discussion on staying or leaving in the Trump era
- 13:43 — Current and potential legal exposure for Trump
- 17:53 — Why accountability has proven elusive
- 22:41 — Types of Trump associates: enablers vs. full-on criminals
- 24:49 — Giuliani’s role in Ukraine and his transformation
- 33:13 — FARA and potential charges against Giuliani
- 34:49 — The role and evolution of Bill Barr
- 40:32 — Barr, Judge Amy Berman Jackson, and the challenge of legal accountability
- 44:32 — Deep challenges to accountability and the primacy of truth
- 47:47 — The "death of truth" and civic consequences
- 52:22 — Conclusion: shared truth and the threat of disinformation
Tone and Takeaway
Dahlia Lithwick and Preet Bharara maintain a tone of urgency mixed with pragmatic realism. Both share deep concern over the failure of traditional legal mechanisms to bring about true accountability or restore a shared civic reality. The conversation is laced with both resignation over institutional failures and a call to broaden the struggle for truth beyond the courtroom—to party politics, the media, and society itself.
Final Reflection
Dahlia closes on a lighter note, pointing to the modest relief felt in this quieter political era:
"Let's maybe stipulate that the happy note is that you and I...at least can sleep till 8 on the weekends. How about that?" (53:10)
The episode ends with the sober acknowledgment: legal accountability alone cannot restore shared truth, and the task of cultural repair remains unfinished.
For anyone who hasn't listened, this episode is a trenchant, candid exploration of why law, politics, and information are now entangled—and why, in the Trump era’s wake, simply prosecuting the guilty may not suffice to heal America’s wounds.