Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, Justice, and the Courts Episode: SCOTUS, Meet The Broligarchs Release Date: May 10, 2025
Introduction
In this compelling episode of Amicus, host Dahlia Lithwick engages in a deep and insightful conversation with renowned tech journalist Kara Swisher. Together, they dissect the intricate web of influence that billionaire tech moguls exert over the American legal system, particularly the Supreme Court. The discussion navigates through the convergence of technology, politics, and law, shedding light on the profound implications for democracy and governance in the United States.
The Rise of Tech Billionaires in Legal Arenas
Lithwick opens the conversation by addressing the post-Trump landscape, questioning the roles of prominent tech figures like Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Marc Andreessen, and Curtis Yarvin. She states:
"Who the heck are Elon Musk and Peter Thiel and Marc Andreessen, Curtis Yarvin and all these weird Billionaire tech Bros. And what do they want from the US Government?"
[02:43]
Swisher elaborates on how these individuals have strategically allied with political powerhouses to influence the judiciary and legislative bodies:
"Harlan Crow and the Kochs entered into an unholy alliance with the Christian right and Leonard Leo... they hoovered up the whole American court system, the state legislatures and the regulatory state, plus the right to vote."
[03:04]
This alliance has led to significant Supreme Court decisions such as Citizens United, Hobby Lobby, Shelby County, Dobbs, Loperbright, and an immunity decision that paved the way for a second Trump administration. Swisher remarks on the unexpected collaboration between traditional Republican figures and modern tech elites:
"We couldn't always understand how that alliance worked out, but we knew it produced... the immunity decision that pretty much gave us the second Trump administration."
[03:18]
Silicon Valley's Shift and Its Constitutional Implications
The discussion shifts to the sudden political shift of Silicon Valley towards the right, culminating in a surge of influence within Washington D.C. Lithwick highlights the rapid transformation:
"So when Silicon Valley took a sharp... Yeet to the right this past January... they shifted all of your data... meme coins turned into the coin of the realm."
[03:38]
Swisher underscores the strategic use of various media platforms by the right to disseminate their narratives, bypassing traditional channels:
"They formed their own medias. They got interested in radio first and then online and blogging and now podcasts... They own the levers of media now."
[07:00]
Elon Musk: A Case Study in Tech Influence and Legal Loopholes
A significant portion of the conversation delves into Elon Musk's role in this shifting landscape. Swisher critiques Musk's strategies and their implications for governance:
"Mark Joseph Stern will join me once more... about a very good news, bad news kind of seesaw week. Eagle Ed Martin is no longer allowed to squat..."
[Note: This quote appears out of context in the transcript and seems to be an excerpt from an ad or outro. It may have been included erroneously.]
However, focusing on relevant content, Swisher discusses Musk's approach to leveraging the legal system:
"He just decides that's a stupid stop sign, I'm going to completely ignore it. And so they do that time and again."
[27:37]
Swisher also touches upon Musk's ventures into AI and Mars colonization, questioning the ethical and regulatory oversight:
"He wants to go to Mars. He's very captivated by the idea that we are going to all die, which humanity's gonna die, and we need to be a multi-planetary species."
[10:13]
The Intersection of AI, Privacy, and Democracy
The conversation transitions into the burgeoning influence of Artificial Intelligence and its ramifications for privacy and democratic integrity. Lithwick raises concerns about AI's potential to manipulate narratives and legal outcomes:
"The danger is anti privacy stuff. The danger is surveillance. The danger is taking away due process and your rights. It's sort of like Minority Report. You're convicted before you murder someone."
[02:22]
Swisher echoes these fears, emphasizing the critical need for legal professionals to understand and harness AI's capabilities:
"Can somebody please invent a crystal ball?... This is, you can... There's no possible way I could do that because no word that I put in a draft ever ends up in the final version."
[15:44]
Legal System's Response and the Future of Regulation
The duo critiques the current legal framework's inadequacies in addressing the challenges posed by Big Tech. Lithwick points out the disparity in regulatory scrutiny between tech giants and other industries:
"You have a lot of regulation on planes, you have a lot of regulation on pharmaceuticals. They don't have any regulation."
[13:51]
Swisher discusses the complexities of implementing effective antitrust laws in the digital age, where traditional metrics of harm are inadequate:
"Antitrust reform is something that's critical given the changing nature of our industry. And we don't really have clear and fair antitrust laws anymore that speak to the moment."
[14:06]
Tribute to Justice David Souter
The episode takes an emotional turn as Dahlia Lithwick pays tribute to the late Justice David Souter, discussing his legacy with Mary Rose Papandrea, a former clerk of Souter and a distinguished professor of Constitutional Law.
Papandrea shares personal anecdotes highlighting Souter's humility and dedication:
"He was a very careful and deliberate justice... he was just doing the work."
[51:38]
She recalls his approachable nature and the profound impact he had on his clerks:
"He didn't want a memorial... he was doing his work... he wanted to do justice."
[55:25]
Swisher and Papandrea reflect on Souter's pragmatic approach to constitutional law, emphasizing his refusal to adhere strictly to originalism or textualism:
"If we cannot share every intellectual assumption that formed the minds of those who framed the charter, we can still address the constitutional uncertainties the way they must have envisioned by relying on reason."
[63:14]
Conclusion
The episode of Amicus masterfully intertwines the intricate dynamics between technology, law, and political power, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of the forces shaping the American judiciary today. Through the insightful dialogue between Dahlia Lithwick and Kara Swisher, coupled with the heartfelt tribute to Justice David Souter, the podcast underscores the critical need for vigilance and informed engagement in preserving the integrity of the legal system amidst evolving societal challenges.
Notable Quotes
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Justice David Souter:
"The Supreme Court should only act and cannot only act when it has the judicial responsibility under the 14th Amendment or any other section of the Constitution."
[63:14] -
Mary Rose Papandrea:
"He was adamant that there not be a memorial for him. He really wanted to do his work, and he enjoyed the work."
[58:06] -
Kara Swisher:
"This court has pushed back on certain things... It's up to voters and citizens because no one is here to save us."
[43:41]
Note: This summary excludes advertisements, introductions, outros, and non-content sections, focusing solely on the substantive discussions and insights shared during the episode.