← Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, justice, and the courts
Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, justice, and the courts
SPECIAL: The Deadly Shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue
00:19:44
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to this special edition of Amicus. I'm Dahlia Lithwick. I cover the courts and the law for Slate. This is an off week for us, but it felt like there was something to say about the events last week in Pittsburgh. And so we have brought in Rabbi Chuck Diamond. He was the rabbi at the Tree of Life Synagogue for seven years and actually in the unaffiliated group for two years before. So nine years at the synagogue. And first of all, Chuck, thank you for joining us this morning. I'm glad to, Dahlia, and I should add two caveats. One is that I've known Chuck since I was 10 years old. He was, I think, the first person who met me when I got off the bus at summer camp, my first time at sleepaway camp.
- [00:55]
B
And you didn't get back on the bus. That's the beautiful thing.
- [00:59]
A
I stayed in no small part because he was a rabbi who juggled. And then my kids actually both know Rabbi Chuck. And I should note that my son Koby, who's 15, is in the studio with me today to say hey.
- [01:12]
C
Hi.
- [01:14]
A
So, Chuck, I guess I want to start with, you know, this is your community. I think you knew 10 of the 11 victims.
- [01:24]
B
I knew nine of the 11 fairly well and didn't really know the other two so well.
- [01:30]
A
And this week for you has just been one funeral after another and trying to comfort the wounded and trying to be with the grieving families. And it's a week. When folks will hear this, it will be exactly a week. And I guess my first question is, how are you?
- [01:53]
B
Well, thank you for asking. You know, it's been obviously a real difficult week. It seems like one long day. And we've been going from funeral as a community, from one funeral to the next, to the next to the next. Today is the last funeral For Rose Mallinger, 97 years old, a beautiful soul, wonderful person, wouldn't hurt a fly. Very active for 97 years old. Her daughter was with her in shul. She would come every week, be there on time. It was a joy having her as a congregant to be her rabbi. I've known her son Allen, since kindergarten. Sort of the special nature of our Jewish community. Tragic. And I will miss Rose so very much. You know, I sort of have become the unofficial spokesman for the Jewish community. The rabbis who were involved are doing such a wonderful job, but they're so not only recovering from the trauma of having been there and having escaped with their lives, in some cases having to watch their congregants being Executed within earshot. And they are so busy officiating at the funerals and comforting their mourners. I give them a lot of credit. So I've been able to fill in. And sort of, because of my connection to the synagogue and to the community, having been raised here and lived here large portions of my life and raised my kids here and live in the house that I grew up in, you know, again, it's been. The media has. Has, I think, been great. I have to say, I compliment all of them, but it's been one thing after the other, calls constantly. And in addition, I have a bar mitzvah tomorrow. So I've had to, you know, I want to make that as joyous as I can for my students.
- [03:58]
A
I wonder if you could. Squirrel Hill. The picture that's been emerging in the press, Rabbi Chuck, is of this kind of. I mean, it was quite literally Mr. Rogers original neighborhood. And we're hearing that, you know, it's just this. I mean, in addition to being this really landmark Jewish neighborhood, also just a place of, you know, settling massive amounts of new refugees in the last few years and sort of minorities and all sorts of just. It sounds like my dream, like my Sesame street dream of America. Can you tell us a little bit about how the rest of the community. We've heard about, you know, Sikhs coming out to support and Muslims raising funds. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like from your end?
- [04:42]
B
Sure. And, Dalia, I'm sort of the big bird, just to give you an idea. It is a wonderful community, and I'm just so happy that I grew up here when I. You know, I have had the great fortune of working in Great Neck, Long island, with a wonderful group of high school kids. And I was in Detroit, Michigan, for a couple years, you know, and I've been very fortunate that way. But I always sort of wanted to come back. Always missed Pittsburgh and Squirrel Hill. It's indeed a very special community, and it's been fairly stable for maybe going on 100 years now. It's known as the Jewish community in town. We've always had kosher food and bakeries, and on Shabbat, you'll see people walking to shul. I always said, I don't care which direction you're going to, what synagogue you go to, as long as you're going to shul on Shabbat. The outreach of the community from all aspects you mentioned, I think the Islamic center has raised a couple hundred thousand dollars. The support from within the Jewish community, the Orthodox rabbis, the Conservatives, the Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis. You know, I have a lot of respect for my colleagues. We all get along. Many of us are friends and we use the word. Somebody, I guess, was being interviewed in Israel and one of the rabbis, the Orthodox rabbis, used the word we and they were shot. You know, what's this we that we talk about ourselves as we? And it's a beautiful thing. Not only that Pittsburgh is a wonderful place to raise your kids and there are Jews and non Jews alike. I can't tell you the number of people who stopped me on the street this week. You know, I'm not Jewish, Rabbi, but let me give you a hug or I love you or thank you. That's what helps us get through this tragedy, the beauty of our community. It was Mr. Rogers neighborhood. Some people have called me the Jewish Mr. Rogers, which is such a great compliment. Excuse my dog in the background. And also the support from around the country has been the same from Jew and non Jew alike, and really from around the world as well. So we are very comforted by that and appreciate that.
- [07:01]
A
Can you. You had posted on Facebook, I think the other day, you had said, you know, the media trucks are starting to leave, the tents are folding up, you know, that the story feels like it's moving on. And I wonder if that's a relief to you a little bit or if there was something that was energy affording about having all that attention. In other words, is it better or worse for you now that folks are turning their eye to the next thing?
- [07:30]
B
Well, that's an interesting question. You know, the media has taken such a hit from various people, which I think is so unfair. They're not the enemy of the people. They've been gracious, they've been kind, they've been comforting. And I've made it a point when I've appeared to thank them on air for what they do. I think it's very important. You know, somebody, one of the gentlemen who happened to be late for services and he was caught in traffic with his college age son and he commented on Facebook that, you know, he felt like they were being a little too intrusive and he sort of resented seeing people talking about his synagogue that weren't even members. And I explained to him that this was so important that there's so many people out there around the country and around the world who are concerned and they need to hear what's going on. It's comforting for them. So I think the media has played an important role in this and I congratulate them. On the way they've handled it, you know, but there's a news cycle and we move from one thing to the other. And, you know, the week before it was the bombs, and now focusing on the election and other various things. So it's a relief to me in a way, just because physically I tried to answer all the demands from my time, from all the media from around the world. We've been focusing on the funerals this week, and the focus should be on the victims and their families. It's a tough time after the Shiva to get on with our lives and to back to some sort of normalcy, but there is no normal, I have to say. So this is the time we really need to be there for the families and the mourners and for the city as we start to heal.
- [09:31]
A
Rabbi Chuck, I think Kobi has a question he wants to ask you.
- [09:34]
C
I'm going to jump in for a sec. So today is Friday, and that means that today is the start of Shabbat. And I know that in the next couple of days, a lot of children are going to be rolling into synagogue for services and Sunday school and whatever they may be going for. But I think those of them that have been informed of this are going to be really scared. So I'm just wondering, what are you going to say to them and what are people going to say to them to kind of comfort them?
- [10:01]
B
Yeah, I think there are different reactions, Kobi. I talked to some high school kids, and it's almost like some of kids your age have become desensitized to these tragedies because they seem to happen so much. You know, there are new terms that you guys are used to, like lockdown.
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C
Yeah.
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B
The next day after the tragedy, there was a prank call to one of the grade schools here, and they went have to go on lockdown. So I do think it's impacted a lot of kids. I do think some kids just sort of, you know, don't know what to do with it because it just happens so much. When I was a kid, I used to have drills for nuclear attack, Right?
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C
Yeah.
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B
And we used to hide under the desks. And I always used to think, like, yeah, this is going to do a lot of good hiding under the desk for a nuclear attack. Now you guys are dealing with a whole different world. Some of. Some of you go to schools with metal detectors, and there's a fear you don't feel safe in the school, which really should be a sanctuary for you. This was an attack on our sanctuary, and the sanctuary should be A place where you're able to feel safe. So what do you say to the kids? I think you say to the kids that, you know, most often we live in a good world, in a safe world, but we have to be there for each other and we have to do good things. And there are a lot of good people in this world and there's hope for the future. And that's sort of the message I think I would give. It's difficult, though. You're right. But we have to be there for the kids and we have to be aware that some kids express it in different ways. Some are, you know, you can tell that they're worried and concerned and sad and some kids sort of keep it in side. So we have to be there for them and we really have to be there for everybody. Thank you for your question, Toby.
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C
Yeah, no problem.
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B
Is that helpful to you?
- [11:58]
C
Yes, it was.
- [12:00]
A
Can I ask you one last question? I was.
- [12:03]
B
You can ask me as many questions as you like.
- [12:07]
A
You know, I was thinking about Kobi and I were in Charlottesville when the Nazis were there a year ago. And. And at the time I think there was this feeling like, okay, this is a bad thing, but it's a one off and now it's over. And then now I think this is this other bad thing and now it's over. And one of the things that my other son asked me this week is, has it always been this way? And how do you explain to kids? I don't know. I think in some communities there's been unbelievable violence for years and years. And it's not. What's different seems to be that the discourse and the language and, you know, things that are being said openly and flagrantly. It hasn't always been this way. Right?
- [13:01]
B
Well, a couple things that are different. One is we have 24 power news and the world is a smaller place. So we. When something happens around the world, we all experience it. And that's. So that's one thing I think that is different. I think also that we live in a time now when the rhetoric has gotten out of control and that some of our leaders have failed to. The words are very important. And I believe the response to Charlottesville was lacking by our leaders. And I think that emboldens people to act out. So I think anti Semitism has sort of always been there, but a lot of times it's under the surface now. People emboldened are emboldened to express their hate in different ways, you know, more publicly. In addition, you know, this was one person who acted here in Pittsburgh, but it was hate combined with guns, and that's a terrible combination. And there are a lot of issues. We need to do something about the proliferation of guns in this country. Look, I don't have a problem with people owning a gun, but I see no use for an assault rifle whose only purpose is to kill people. I don't know why they're legal. I just don't. Nobody can explain that to me. So we have a lot of work to do, and hopefully the next generation can lead us as the wonderful kids in Parkland have done. And so there's hope, I think, but there's a lot of work that needs to be done. And I think our politicians. I've said a few things that they have to get off their rear ends to do something. I think there's a middle ground, and I think we have to start working together. So, to your son, there's been things throughout our lifetime and before that have happened, but it just seems to be happening more often, and we're more aware of it. And as we learn from this experience, it can affect your community. It can happen to you. Give your son a hug for. I love that kid.
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A
Yeah, he loves you, too. I actually just interviewed Emma Gonzalez, one of the Parkland kids, and she said, I have hope. I have hope. And your Facebook post Friday morning said, these are things that I have hope about. I'm grateful about. Can you tell us? You've talked about the unbelievable support across the faith community. The first responders tell us something that. That has given you hope in this, I think probably the most catastrophic week that you've seen as a rabbi in Pittsburgh. But what's giving you hope right now?
- [15:54]
B
It's interesting. The night before, I guess Friday night, I was so depressed, said to my wife, I just can't take this anymore. You know, all the news and what's going on and the hate and the divisiveness in our country and treatment of refugees and, you know, just the list goes on and on and on, as you know, too well, Dalia. And then this happens the next day. But what has given me hope, and I've been in touch with Parkland, I have to say, and survivors of Las Vegas and thinking about maybe something we can do together to try to make a difference. What's given me hope is there's so many good people out there around the world, and I'm hearing from them, you know, on the streets of Pittsburgh, my Facebook posts and the reaction to them, I think I've heard from Every person I said this today, every person I've ever known has been in contact with me. But the love and the support from friends and neighbors and strangers has been overwhelming to me. I've gotten a few hate mail, pieces of hate mail I have to you tell, but not many, very small percentage. And that gives me hope. I think there's good people. The teens of Parkland gave me hope. Your kids give me hope. And as I mentioned in my Facebook page, there's a lot to be thankful for. And even at this tragic time, we have to consider that. I spoke to some of the survivors or the people who didn't make it to synagogue who are feeling guilty. And I said, you've been given the gift of life and appreciate that and make the most of it. You know, you don't have to feel guilty. And those are things. All the first responders and the police department and everybody who's been involved on all levels have just been wonderful. We live in a good community. There are good people in the world, and we just have to do good things for other people. If we do that, Dalia, I think we'll end up being okay.
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A
Oh, Rabbi Chuck, I needed that. Thank you. I think a lot of people needed that. So this is gonna be in people's earbuds on Saturday morning as a lot of Jewish parents are forcing their kids into their scratchy synagogue clothes.
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B
And, yeah, I'm doing something, Dalia, at the corner of, you know, I don't have. I have a little steeple that doesn't have a building. And I sort of see myself. I've become now even more so the rabbi for the unaffiliated. So I'm doing a little something at the corner where the synagogue is at the time that the shooting took place from 9:45 to 10:30. And for Jews and non Jews who were coming. So we'll all be. And I encourage people to be in their own synagogue, you know, to have comfort from their congregation. So I'm sure a lot of people will be coming to shul. This isn't the way I would like to get people to synagogue, mind you, but I think I feel the solidarity all over the country of. And all over the world of people who will be praying and will be together in spirit, I'm going to wish.
- [18:53]
A
You a peaceful and gentle Shabbat Sabbath. And on behalf of those of us at Slate who needed to hear you today, and from Kobe, who's going to.
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C
Say, shvashalom, take care, Toby, I look.
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B
Forward to hugging you at Camp man.
- [19:10]
C
Yeah, me too.
- [19:12]
A
Take care of.
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B
We break in a new director together. Thank you, Dalia. Take care.
- [19:16]
A
Take care. Bye. That is going to do it for this off week edition of Amicus. Thank you for joining us. And we'll be with you next week for our regular podcast.
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B
Sam.