Podcast Summary

Podcast: Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, Justice, and the Courts
Episode: The Incrementalist RBG
Date: December 22, 2018
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Guest: Daniel Stiepleman (Screenwriter of "On the Basis of Sex," RBG’s nephew)

Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the legacy and legal philosophy of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg (RBG), framed through the lens of the film On the Basis of Sex, which dramatizes her early legal work. Host Dahlia Lithwick interviews Daniel Stiepleman, the film's screenwriter and RBG’s nephew, exploring the strategy, motivations, and personal history that shaped RBG’s approach to law and gender equality. The episode aims to contextualize RBG not as an unassailable feminist icon but as a precise, pragmatic, and incremental legal thinker.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origin of the Film: Family, Marriage, and the Moritz Case

• Stiepleman’s inspiration struck at the funeral of Martin Ginsburg, RBG’s husband. Hearing Marty’s pride in helping Ruth argue the tax case Moritz v. Commissioner led Stiepleman to see a movie in their relationship and partnership.
  • Notable Quote [03:24]:
    Daniel Stiepleman: “My wife and I very consciously looked to Ruth and Marty as, this is what a marriage is supposed to look like. Let's build a marriage like theirs.”
• Stiepleman reached out to RBG for permission and support; her response was characteristically measured and open:
  • Notable Quote [04:19]:
    RBG (via Stiepleman): “If that's how you think you want to spend your time.”

2. RBG’s Emergence as a Cultural Icon

• When the film began production, RBG had not yet become a pop-culture symbol. Stiepleman notes the irony that during the lengthy writing process, "the country lapped ahead of me" in recognizing her as an icon.
  • Notable Quote [05:31]:
    Daniel Stiepleman: “I thought I was writing the movie that was gonna introduce this woman...and then the country lapped ahead of me.”
• Both Lithwick and Stiepleman acknowledge how popular perception (the “Notorious RBG” meme) sometimes clashes with the actual, more nuanced person.

3. Accuracy, Ego, and Collaboration with RBG

• RBG was deeply involved in reviewing the script, prioritizing accuracy in the law’s portrayal and Marty’s character, and resisting any suggestion that she “invented” women’s rights law.
  • Notable Quote [08:00]:
    Daniel Stiepleman: “Her mantra was always, if you're going to make a portrait of me, make it an accurate portrait. And that was never approached from a place of ego.”
• RBG emphasized her place in a lineage, referencing Dorothy Kenyon, Pauli Murray, and Thurgood Marshall as foundational figures.

4. Sexism and Early Legal Career Barriers

• The episode highlights the entrenched sexism of the 1950s legal world.
  • Only nine women in a Harvard Law class of 500; a real-life dinner where the Dean (Griswold) asked female students to justify their presence.
  • RBG initially masked her true purpose at Harvard, stating she was there to be a more understanding wife.
  • Notable Scene [12:02]:
    RBG (in the movie): “I'm at Harvard to learn more about his [Marty’s] work so I can be a more patient and understanding wife.”

5. Anger, Persuasion, and Incrementalism

• The film and episode explore how RBG’s strategy was not rooted in anger but in learning to be persuasive—especially to figures in authority who doubted her place.
  • Lithwick: “This is a movie about how do I kind of tamp down the anger in order to be an effective persuasive advocate.” [16:16]
• RBG internalized generational lessons: change requires the stamina to wait for culture to catch up to the law, and vice versa.

6. Moritz v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue: Gender Equality via a Male Plaintiff

• The Moritz case stands as a masterstroke of strategy: using a male client’s unfair treatment to show judges the irrationality of gender discrimination.
• Stiepleman frames it as a double origin story—the professional launching point for RBG and a reflection of the equality she lived at home with Marty.
  • Notable Quote [18:03]:
    Stiepleman: “It was the story of a marriage...It's Marty and Ruth arguing in court for something that they had managed to create at home, which was real, genuine equality.”
• The case’s structure exposes how legal gains for women were often more persuasive to male judges when the discrimination affected men.

7. Generational and Strategic Tensions: Protest vs. Litigation

• The episode contrasts “street” activism (embodied by RBG’s daughter Jane and Gloria Steinem) with RBG’s patient, lawyerly approach.
  • Clip [25:54-26:35]:
    Jane to RBG: “If you want to sit around with your students and talk about how shitty it is to be a girl...Don’t pretend it’s a movement, okay? It’s not a movement if everyone’s just sitting. That's a support group, Jane.”
• Both approaches are shown as necessary, but RBG’s incrementalism is ultimately responsible for institutional change.

8. Marty Ginsburg: Partnership Model

• Marty is described as a uniquely supportive spouse—not submissive, but secure in sharing the domestic load and supporting RBG’s ambition.
  • Notable Quote [31:52]:
    Stiepleman: “You have to fight so much out there. You don't want to come home and have to fight it there, too.”

9. Persistent Allies and Subtle Obstacles: Mel Wolf and the ACLU

• Mel Wolf (played by Justin Theroux) is depicted as both an ally and a gatekeeper, worried about the pace and ambition of RBG’s cases.
  • He pushes RBG to be non-threatening so judges aren't alienated—sometimes in patronizing ways (“Would it kill you to smile?” [34:40]).
• The strategic debate highlights the tension between boldness and caution in civil rights litigation.

10. Performance, Identity, and "Finding Her Voice"

• Felicity Jones’ preparation for the role included mastering RBG’s careful speech, balancing between “fitting in” and authenticity.
• RBG modulated her accent and demeanor to minimize being seen as “other”—as a woman, as a Jew, as a Brooklynite.
  • Notable Quote [38:39]:
    Stiepleman: “How much do I want to fit into the mainstream and how much do I want to own myself and be proud of who I am?”

11. RBG’s Optimism, Institutional Change, and Enduring Legacy

• The discussion closes with RBG’s optimism about the resilience of institutional change, even amidst political setbacks.
  • Notable Quote [42:07]:
    Stiepleman quoting RBG: “We weren't angry, we weren't depressed. We had this sense that the world was getting better and we were at the forefront of that change.”
• Lithwick remarks on the permanence of the legal architecture RBG helped build, and the comfort that comes from incremental, legal progress.

Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• [04:19] RBG (via Stiepleman): “If that's how you think you want to spend your time.”
• [08:00] Stiepleman: “Her mantra was always, if you're going to make a portrait of me, make it an accurate portrait.”
• [12:02] RBG (in film): “I'm at Harvard to learn more about his work so I can be a more patient and understanding wife.”
• [16:16] Lithwick: “This is a movie about how do I kind of tamp down the anger in order to be an effective persuasive advocate.”
• [18:03] Stiepleman: “It's Marty and Ruth arguing in court for something that they had managed to create at home, which was real, genuine equality.”
• [31:52] Stiepleman: “You have to fight so much out there. You don't want to come home and have to fight it there, too.”
• [34:40] Lithwick: “He says crushingly, would it kill you to smile? He wants her to be more charming at the 10th Circuit.”
• [38:39] Stiepleman: “How much do I want to fit into the mainstream and how much do I want to own myself and be proud of who I am?”
• [42:07] Stiepleman (quoting RBG): “We weren't angry, we weren't depressed. We had this sense that the world was getting better and we were at the forefront of that change.”

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:34] – Stiepleman explains inspiration for the film at Marty’s funeral
• [05:14] – Discussion of RBG’s rise as a pop-culture icon
• [07:14] – Insights into RBG’s collaboration and feedback on the script
• [09:29] – Scenes illustrating 1950s Harvard sexism and RBG’s “flats among loafers”
• [12:35] – The film as an origin story and RBG’s persuasion strategy
• [17:40] – The choice to focus on Moritz v. Commissioner and its strategic importance
• [25:52] – Dynamics of RBG’s relationship with her daughter Jane and generational feminism
• [28:31] – The character and real-life role of Marty Ginsburg
• [32:35] – Introduction of Mel Wolf as ally and obstacle
• [38:39] – Felicity Jones’s portrayal of RBG and themes of voice and identity
• [41:42] – RBG’s sense of optimism and joy in activism
• [44:35] – The lasting institutional legacy of RBG’s approach

Tone and Style

The conversation is warm, witty, reflective, occasionally irreverent, and fiercely intelligent—mirroring both the film’s tone and RBG’s own disposition. There is a deep respect for history and the law, but also a sense of humor and recognition of RBG's humanity.

Conclusion

This episode offers an engaging exploration of Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s life and legal contributions, emphasizing her incrementalist approach to social change and her resistance to being mythologized. Through Daniel Stiepleman’s perspective as both a family member and screenwriter, listeners gain a nuanced appreciation of RBG’s legacy, the vital role of strategic persuasion in law, and the enduring importance of partnership and optimism in the pursuit of justice.