C (3:38)

So when the Supreme Court decided, and I want to point out that they had months and months and months where this case was coming up and they needed four justices to say that they wanted to hear it, they and they couldn't get four justices and it would go back and then it would be reintroduced. And this happened over and over and over again. And the reason why this happened is because this is a complete and utter straight at Roe v. Wade. There is no place in current abortion law where a state can completely ban abortion prior to viability, which at best is believed to be around 24 weeks. So banning abortion at 13 weeks is saying we no longer believe that this precedent sent by Roe v. Wade is the standard in which we are going to make sure that abortion laws happen. When this happens with Mississippi, we know that this was something that's completely against the Constitution as it stands at this moment. But the other part about Mississippi is the fact that this is a 15 week abortion ban and Mississippi only actually provides abortions up to 16 weeks. So this is a very incremental and deliberate way of saying this is a challenge. This is the case that we're going to do in order to make sure that the Supreme Court can essentially say, all right, we don't think that viability is a point in which states can say we are not able to ban.

B (5:02)

To my understanding, the prospects that Roe v. Wade will actually just be flat out overturned are maybe pretty slim. Are we looking at more of laws that offer or a decision that allows states to just extremely restrict abortion instead of just, you know, a total free for all where, you know, the decision is overturned.

C (5:23)

The idea of what severely restrict is means a lot based on what your state is and what your access is like already. So that's something that we really have to understand, especially when it comes to out here in the south and in the Midwest. If a state passes a ban, that is a ban on any abortion after the first trimester or any abortion after 12 weeks, when you only have one clinic or two clinics in your state that offers care, when you only have doctors who can come in once or twice a week, when you only have so many patients who can get in and you have 72 hour waits, 48 hour waits, and all of them with multiple appointments, that is really pushing how many people can actually access an abortion prior to the point in which they are suddenly cut off. So what I envision happening is that we are going to see that in the summer of 2022 the Supreme Court is going to say that we no longer believe that states are not able to ban abortion prior to viability. We are willing to look at a case by case basis as to when states can do it prior and maybe we'll back off if it looks like something is being too strenuous. We don't know for sure. And so after that we are going to see a number of states and it's all the states that you would expect that are going to start banning abortion at 14 weeks or at 12 weeks. I honestly believe that we're going to see most states go to 12 weeks. And we've already seen the talking points that have been laid down for this because anti abortion activists will constantly discuss how in comparison to Europe, we have such late abortion laws and every country in Europe usually cuts off at 12 weeks. Of course they cut off at 12 weeks because people have free health care, people have access to early medication abortion. They have access in ways that we don't have in this country and frankly are probably never going to at the rate things are going. So I expect to see that most of the states that currently have trigger bans, which are bans that would make abortion completely legal, illegal, if the courts allowed it to. I see all of them introducing 12 week bans and then it will be a matter of can we actually see patients in time.

B (7:35)

I mean, we know just based on their previous writings and decisions that a lot of the justices on the Supreme Court are, would be excited to overturn Roe v. Wade. So what's, what would stop them from doing that?

C (7:47)

The gop Honestly, I firmly believe that while we see a lot of the talking points come from true believers in the anti abortion groups, Susan B. Anthony list, Americans United for Life, all of those regular groups who believe that there would be nothing better than a human life amendment that meant that from the moment of conception there was no way that you could stop a pregnancy ever. That's what they want. But the idea is that most of the people who are in office who run as Republicans, they don't necessarily want that. I don't believe that they want something so extreme. And it's not just because of their own convenience. It's because it is so easy to run for office as a Republican when you have Roe to run on and when you have abortion to run on. When we look at a pro life candidate, we see, I mean, look at Donald Trump. We see all of the things that a voter is willing to completely forgive, money issues, mistresses, all sorts of utterly inept and corrupt things that as long as they say, but I'm going to make sure that abortion is illegal. I mean, that's so easy to use as an election tool. Why would they be willing to give it up? I don't think they will be. And honestly, I don't think the court will let it. And that is why we're seeing that this case is going to come down right before the 2022 midterms.

B (9:12)

I wonder if that reality is a little bit of a disappointment for you. I know in 2019 you published a piece in Politico saying, or the title was, I'm an abortion rights activist. I hope the Supreme Court Overturns Roe v. Wade. I wonder if you could explain what your argument was in that piece. And do you feel the same way now that that the opportunity to do that is, is a lot closer.

C (9:35)

So my, my reasoning at the time was the fact that we were seeing all of these major abortion bills come down the pike. And we know that for a large amount of the population, abortion is already inaccessible. And because of that, there is no legal abortion. We know that, especially in the south and in the Midwest, that people can't get into clinics. We know that they can't pay for abortions. We know that people are purchasing pills online. Even though that is a legal jeopardy issue. This is what people are doing already. And so my argument was that if no one could access it, then it would really finally galvanize people to understand that this is something that affects everybody. And if we've learned nothing else over the last few years, it's that nobody gets interested in activating change unless they are directly impacted by things. So at the time, I thought this was a great idea. I will say that now, especially having worked at an abortion fund, having worked for an abortion clinic, now we need access to legal abortion. And there's never going to be a place where just being able to get medication abortion is going to be something that can solve all the problems. As much as people would like to say that expanding access to medication abortion will, but I've also seen what it's like to try to financially get people out of a state in order to get to other clinics. If we hit a point, and we will hit a point in the Southeast, where Florida may be the only state in which abortion is legal. And that is an if. When I'm trying to get people from Alabama to the nearest abortion clinic, which will be in southern Illinois, that is not something that is going to be attainable. We can't do that over and over. And it terrifies me, but I don't know what else to do. When Alabama had its total abortion ban in 2019, it had it right after Georgia had just introduced its six week ban, which was also, in essence, a total abortion ban. When Georgia introduced this six week ban and it passed, everybody's reaction was, okay, we should boycott Georgia. Like, somehow this was gonna be the thing that would change everything. Oh, we'll show Georgia we're not gonna give them any political support, resources, et cetera. Couple weeks later, Alabama did a total abortion ban, and everybody's reaction was, we have to save the people of Alabama. Let me give you money. And that was how the Yellow Hammer Fund ended up with about $2 million over just a matter of a couple of days. And that's what we've been using ever since to buy the abortion clinic to get people the care that they want. There is a very different mindset when it comes to total ban versus partial ban, even if that partial ban is in essence a total ban. What has changed, though, over the last two years, though, is people are exhausted economically, politically. Between Covid, between all of the various assaults on everybody's rights, I don't know if that enthusiasm is going to be there. Even if there was an entire. If Roe made it so that abortion was illegal in all of these states, I don't know if the people have the enthusiasm, have the will anymore to fight. And that scares me a lot. I think about it every day.

B (13:08)

Yeah. I mean, and I think about all of the structural barriers to progressive activism having an impact between, you know, Trump's judicial appointees is one thing, but also, like the filibuster you know, the Senate's very existence and how illiberal that is, like the erosion of voting rights.

C (13:25)

It.

B (13:26)

I'm just not confident and I think people are less confident now that that sort of activism can have political impact.

C (13:33)

And the thing that's terrifying about it is the fact that with the, with the Supreme Court essentially in conservative hands, we've lost that wing for good. Unless there is actual judicial reform, we have lost that wing. And even if we have a pro choice majority in the House and we can get a veto proof majority in the Senate and we have the White House at the same time, we still can't guarantee that we can have complete change federal policy as a way of getting abortion to be accessible regardless of location and racial and economic barriers. I don't think this country is capable of it anymore. And if you look back at 2009 when we were doing the Affordable Care act, we couldn't even get abortion in there and we had a veto approved majority. We, we still lost Senator Nelson and that's how we ended up with Stupak Pitts and the Nelson amendment and so many insurers that don't cover abortion. That was when we had complete power like as much as one can get. What do we do now when we have, yes, we have a federal system that can kind of make some change. But what I'm seeing just over the last few months is people are very excited because hey, the FDA may make it so that more people can get access to medication, abortion and hey, we might be able to advocate enough that the Hyde amendment will disappear and then Medicaid can cover abortion, but that's still going to leave all of these states behind because we have telemed bans, we don't have expanded Medicaid yet. It's been 10 years and we still don't have expanded Medicaid. And maybe Medicare for all can come around someday and actually help everybody. But I can't see a way in which states won't find that they can opt out of that as well. And so we're kind of screwed judicially and federally. And I, I don't know how to get around it other than to just tell people that we may have to break some laws and do some bad stuff.

B (15:37)

And we'll talk about what exactly that would look like after the, In your book you write about plans that people can make in some of these states and regions in anticipation of, you know, whether it be the fall of Roe v. Wade or other extreme crackdowns on abortion access. What do you suggest that people do on a personal level and also on a community level to prepare for that kind of thing?

C (16:10)

So the most important thing that I think any person can do is, is we need to change our mindset on how medication abortion looks and how a medication abortion should be used. One of the things that the COVID pandemic did was really make us understand what the situation would look like if Roe is gone and if states really do make abortion illegal. And we saw so many people during the pandemic who either financially or logistically could not get to clinics and were ordering pills online. And when they did that, that was supposed to be the safety net for people to still be able to get care. But we saw a Trump administration that was holding up pills in customs. We saw even worse that in a lot of cases they were being sent over from India and because of the pandemic there, they weren't able to actually manufacture pills. There was a huge shortage in medication abortion over the last year that a lot of people don't know about. And that's one of the reasons that it happened. When it comes to medication abortion, I want it to be at a point someday where people think of it like they do emergency contraception, that it's something that every person has in their medicine cabinet just in case they need it, and can talk to people who are in a safe and trusted network, their friends, their family, people that they really trust. And so that if there is an emergency, somebody can say, hi, I really need that medicine, and you have it there for them, and then you can begin the process, however many weeks it might take to get it again. That is something that I would love to see happen in this world. I do not know how that could happen. I do not know at this point if that's something that might be more possible as we're seeing more medication, medication places start to exist in the states that are allowing it. But that would be the number one thing, is to make sure that every person has access to it, but also realize that not all people are going to want to do medication. There's always going to be a point in which people are going to need procedural abortion either for follow up or for any other reason that they might need it. In which case, when it comes to trying to figure out that bit of care, I think that the Texas bill really helped us understand what the future could look like by putting out this whole idea of aiding and abetting an abortion. This is something that everybody really needs to be aware of. And it was really A wake up call, nice and early. For people to be able to get their minds wrapped around the idea that there is going to be a point in which helping someone or obtaining an abortion will be a crime.

B (18:46)

Again, could you just explain that portion of the Texas law?

C (18:53)

So with the Texas law they have set it up so it's not that the person who is getting an abortion would be criminally charged. Instead there is the ability for any person who assisted that person in getting an abortion to be, to potentially be sued and not just sued by. They could be sued by a stranger, they could be sued by somebody that they know. They could be sued by somebody in the state, out of the state, state. And aiding the bedding could be anything from a grandmother who gives their granddaughter 100 bucks so that she can go get an abortion, A partner who drives somebody over to an abortion clinic. And honestly it could just be people who make stuff up. So it's just a wide range. Any person who is able to like do a case of aiding and abetting can make $10,000. And so essentially there it's snitch laws and it's terrifying. But so it's really helped people understand that when it comes to a post Roeamerica, the most important thing is figuring out if you are going to do any sort of activism, how do you do it safely, so how do you keep it offline as much as possible if you are going to do anything online, how to protect yourself online by making sure that you're not giving away your personal information, that you're not saying things in non security areas, that you're only working with people that you know you trust or that you vetted. That is going to be so much more important and one of the things that is still down the road. Mississippi introduced a bill that did not pass this year, thank goodness. But in their total abortion ban they introduced the idea of making it a felony to provide information about abortion. So telling people where abortions clinics are would officially be a felony. Telling people how they could end a pregnancy using mifepristone and misoprostol, that would be a felony. Providing handouts where they could get that information would be a felony. My book would be a felony big time. There's no end to the ways that people could end abortion access information wise. We already see it with libraries that won't let you get through with certain keywords like what happens if that goes across the system or across the state or through public WI fi. There's so many ways that people need to be exceptionally careful going forward.

B (21:19)

And I know the entire concept of self managed abortion or illegal abortion has been framed in a sort of scary way because that's something we don't want to go back to obviously. And it's often talked about in terms of back alleys and coat hangers and infections and death. And we know that in countries that do have abortion bans, you know, complications from illegal abortions are major drivers of maternal mortality rates. But your handbook actually talks about it seems more optimistic about some forms of self managed abortion. Tell me about that.

C (21:55)

Well, I actually expanded it quite a bit this go around. The first time that I did it, when I did the first edition I gave a lot of information on medication abortion. And I will say right now that if you have the ability to access medication abortion that will always be the safest way that you that a person could do their own self care at home simply because it is just a hormone and then a medication that causes contractions. It's essentially a miscarriage which many people have early miscarriages all the time. And the only thing that's dangerous about medication abortion is that in many places if you don't get it through a clinic, it could put you in jail. It's a legal issue, it's not a physical one. But this go around I did introduce more information on self managed abortion when it comes to using herbs or other easier to obtain materials. And I did that this time for two reasons. One is because I wanted to make sure that if people were looking for that information, and we know that people are looking for that information, A they weren't looking it up online because again we don't want to leave any sort of electronic footprint. But also this is something that's far more accessible for people. If it's the only option, then I want people to know what are the safest means. And so I went through with somebody and made sure that those recipes that I did include were ones that I did not have to worry about somebody potentially if they use too much or too little, that it could have long lasting health effects. The most likely thing that would happen if a person did it wrong is that they would still be pregnant. So it was about making sure that I wasn't gatekeepering information because we know that lots of communities, especially black and brown communities are already doing this because of both tradition and also an obvious and rightly placed mistrust of mainstream medicine which is really racially biased and not a good place in a lot of cases for black and brown people. So I wanted to make sure that people had access to all of the different types of abortion that they would be able to do easily, as safely as possible, but also make sure that, again, I like keeping people off of the Internet in order to make sure that they're safe.

B (24:09)

At the same time, you know, I think about, like, let's assume there's funding, full funding for all abortion funds. There's amazing, you know, extralegal networks of people ready to get abortion medication into states where it's banned. How does that information get into the hands of people who need it and who will need to be in a position to request that support? Especially when, as you said, you know, even using the Internet to find that kind of information can be dangerous or could be dangerous.

C (24:40)

And that's why I have a chapter that's entirely about people figuring out what their risk levels are. I firmly believe that when we get into this age, there is going to be a point in which every person is going to have to decide what risks are, are they willing to take legally in order to make sure that all people have access to bodily autonomy. And it is very important that as we look at this, we make sure that the people who are taking these legal risks are the people who have the most privilege. Because we know that when it comes to incarceration that white people are treated differently than people of color. We know that it's going to affect people differently. I am a privileged white woman, and if I am driving across a border, I am far less likely to have my car searched than somebody who is Latino. There are all of these ways that we can use our privilege and that we have to use our privilege because we are essentially responsible for these laws being in place in the first place, because we are crappy voters and we have let things get out of control, and we have not taken responsibility for all of the inherent white supremacy and racism that we have allowed to go unchecked in this country. And that is why we are in a place now where we have most of our hospitals, religious organizations that believe that they can decide who does and does not deserve health care. This is our problem. And so we, as white people of privilege, are the ones who have to address this and fix this. And so my goal is to make sure that people can go through and figure out how to best choose what legal risks they're willing to take, and also kind of look at what that will mean for their families, for people around them, to make sure that when you are doing civil disobedience or doing something against the law, you are causing the least amount of harm while doing the most amount of good.

B (26:40)

So that's what happens in that world. Now, I want to end with a question about this one. I know that there have been debates, if you want to call it that, in reproductive justice circles about how funding can best be used. There are some really large organizations, like Planned Parenthood, for instance, that has a lot of money for political advocacy. And I've heard that, like, a fraction of that funding could fully fund all requests received by abortion funds from women who need financial support to get an abortion. Would that be in our current political landscape with all of the limitations? You talked about a wise diversion of some of those funds when we have a political situation that is increasingly hostile to movement in favor of abortion rights.

C (27:29)

So I am not against political advocacy. What I am against is nationalized political advocacy. If you look at where we have advocacy groups right now or where we have arms of national advocacy, you will notice that the states that are getting attention are the states where we can see basically Senate races that are possible to win. Everything is all about the Senate, in my opinion, when it comes to how political advocacy and funding works. Georgia is getting attention because Georgia has become something where people can spend money and try to get change. That's great. But what that's doing is leaving out places like Alabama, Mississippi. We are at the absolute bottom. Nobody thinks that they can ever affect change there. And because of that, we are never going to see any money for political advocacy. One of the things that Yellowhammer Fund ended up doing was using some of the money that we received and making sure that there was enough network that was starting to be built of progressive groups, because progressives exist in these areas. If you go and look at the cities, you will see that they vote Democrat. It's a matter of getting more people out to vote, making sure that we are working on issues to get people back, voting rights, making sure that all of the things that help voting access happen. But we don't have networks. We have to build our own networks because nobody is going to going to give us the funding to do it. We have to do that ourselves from the ground up. I live in Tuscaloosa. My state representative is a progressive black man. There are so many wonderful progressive representatives, politicians here, locally and throughout Birmingham and Selma and everywhere else. We have this power, but nobody is ever going to give us any sort of resources to work on it. So what I feel about politics is exactly what I feel about all forms of activism. When you are trying to decide what you are going to do. Do not give money to national groups. Always give money, resources, your time, whatever you're going to do to the most local organization on the ground that you can find, it will go so much further. It cuts out overhead and it's the people on the ground who really need the support because we could build this network. We could be a Georgia, we could be a Florida, we could be do all of this. But we're always going to be the last one to get anything that's really smart.

B (29:54)

And I think that's a great place to end this discussion. Robin is again the author of Handbook for a Post Roe America and the End of Roe v Wade. Robin, thank you so much for joining.

C (30:03)

Thanks for having me.

B (30:11)

So before I let you go, we have a few recommendations for our listeners. What did you bring to our little show and tell us one of the.

C (30:19)

Things that I have really been enjoying and it sounds weird to say because dystopian pandemic reading is always kind of yikes, but I have been really devouring Meg Elison's series, the Book of the Unnamed Midwife. I cannot recommend this series more. It is about an America in a post apocalyptic world where there was a virus that ran through it and it ended up killing almost all of the women. And so it is what happens when one woman essentially dresses as a man and goes throughout the country trying to find survivors and help people not become pregnant if they do not want to be, because giving birth is essentially a death sentence. And the first book is amazing, but as it progresses it has such interesting language and looks at what gender roles are and what gender roles are not and really becomes extraordinarily fluid with the characters themselves and their own ideas of gender and how society looks at it. And it has just been a breathtaking series that I absolutely love.

B (31:30)

Wow, that sounds so good. I can't believe I've never heard of it. So I would normally recommend something with a little more intellectual heft than what I'm about to do, but since summer is fast upon us, I wanted to give a shout out to my ride or Dies of the warmer months. I'm talking of course about my Tevas. The Tevas that I have are not your crunchy uncle's Tevas. They're called the Hurricane Drift Edition. Teva says that they are gravity defying and nearly indestructible. That's truth in advertising, people. These shoes are made out of injection molded Eva, which is basically like a croc material, kind of like rubbery, foamy like plastic. Each one of these shoes, I weighed them weighs only a little more than a quarter of a pound. It literally feels like you're wearing clouds on your feet. And yet I'll never forget my colleague Heather Schwedel's interview with a podiatrist who said that basically all sandals are terrible for your feet and not these ones. They have support. And you know What? In my mid-30s, that's what I need. That's what I want from my sandals. And yet they look cool. They're really chunky, which luckily is like on trend right now. And because they're so chunky, they keep your feet far off the ground, which is great when you're walking around on dirty sidewalks all the time. And they're only $40. So I got these sandals two or three summers ago. Like Tifa said, they're nearly indestructible. They look new. I have white ones, but I wash them and they look brand new. And and I just learned that one of my colleagues and her girlfriend, who are both really fashion forward young people, both bought pairs this year. So I'm confident that this style will continue through post pandemic life again. These are the Teva Hurricane Drift sandals. I promise I'll be back next time with something that will stimulate your brain any a little more, but get these sandals before summer starts and thank me later. So that's our show this week. The Waves is produced by Shana Roth. Susan Matthews is our editorial director. June Thomas provides oversight and much needed moral support, and we have additional production help from Rosemary Bellson. If you are as happy about the return of the Waves as we are, please consider supporting the show by joining Slate. Plus. Members get benefits like zero ads on any Slate podcast and bonus episodes of shows like Slate Cloburn. It's only $1 for the first month. To learn more, go to slate.com the waves plus it feels so great to have the Waves back. I hope you feel the same. And if you like the show, please be sure to subscribe, rate and review the podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts, the Waves will be back next week. Different hosts, different topic, same time and place.