Amicus With Dahlia Lithwick | Law, Justice, and the Courts

Episode: What Is Impeachment For?

Date: January 7, 2020
Host: Dahlia Lithwick
Notable Guest: Neal Katyal (Former Acting Solicitor General of the United States)

Episode Overview

This episode of Amicus grapples with the central question: "What is impeachment for?" Host Dahlia Lithwick introduces announcements about upcoming coverage on the critical importance of voting and American democracy in 2020. The episode’s focal point is a thought-provoking conversation with Neal Katyal, who discusses the constitutional purpose of impeachment in the shadow of President Trump’s conduct and the urgent political moment.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Relevance of Impeachment Amidst an Impending Election

• Neal Katyal counters the argument: "Why impeach when an election is so close?"

  • Logical Reason: Impeachment is necessary if a president has cheated in an election—waiting for another election to “fix” things is illogical.
  • Historical Reason: The founders anticipated the need for impeachment specifically as a check when an election couldn’t.

  Quote [02:22]:

  "The allegation against the president is really simple, that he cheated in the 2020 election. He tried to get help from a foreign government, and he got caught. So to say, wait for that 2020 election to decide things is kind of like if Dalia and I are playing a game of Monopoly and she accuses me of cheating, and I say, well, let's just figure out whether I cheated by playing another game of Monopoly. I mean, it doesn't make any sense."
  — Neal Katyal

2. Impeachment in Constitutional Design

• The Philadelphia Convention of 1787: Katyal outlines how debate over impeachment unfolded.

  • Early on, some founders (e.g. Elbridge Gerry) downplayed impeachment’s necessity, thinking elections themselves were accountability enough.
  • However, leading figures (like Hamilton and Madison) insisted on impeachment for betrayal of the public trust, notably involving foreign interference.

  Quote [03:40]:

  "What if you have a president who fundamentally betrays the American trust? Are we supposed to wait and just let that happen? What if Madison said one of those presidents has help from a foreign government and so then actually even Elbridge Gerry changes his mind and says, absolutely, that's what we need impeachment for."
  — Neal Katyal

  • Textbook Impeachment Case:
    Katyal stresses that the scenario where a president seeks help from a foreign power for electoral gain was precisely what the framers envisioned impeachment to address.

  Quote [04:35]:

  "It is literally the textbook definition of what impeachment is. A president who goes and seeks help from a foreign government to help him in his election. That is front and foremost what the founders had in mind when they thought about impeachment."
  — Neal Katyal

3. Impeachment and the Strength of the Presidency

• The founders debated whether a powerful executive would need sufficient checks.
• As Alexander Hamilton noted in The Federalist Papers, they sought both a vigorous presidency and the means to remove a president who abused those powers.

4. The Ongoing Threat to Democracy

• Dahlia Lithwick highlights the stakes of the 2020 election, suggesting that issues of election law, foreign interference, and the mechanisms of accountability (like impeachment) are intertwined—and that these topics will be the heart of Amicus’ upcoming coverage.

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• The Monopoly Analogy for Impeachment:

  • “To say, wait for that 2020 election to decide things is kind of like if Dalia and I are playing a game of Monopoly and she accuses me of cheating, and I say, well, let's just figure out whether I cheated by playing another game of Monopoly." (Neal Katyal, [02:38])

• Founders' Foresight:

  • “What if you have a president who fundamentally betrays the American trust? Are we supposed to wait and just let that happen?” (Neal Katyal, [03:45])

• Historical Context:

  • “It is literally the textbook definition of what impeachment is... That is front and foremost what the founders had in mind.” (Neal Katyal, [04:35])

Important Timestamps

• [00:04] – Dahlia Lithwick introduces the upcoming Slate live event on election threats in 2020.
• [02:22] – Neal Katyal discusses logic and history of impeachment, including the Monopoly analogy.
• [03:40] – Reflection on the debates at the Philadelphia Convention around impeachment and foreign influence.
• [04:35] – Concluding insight: seeking foreign help in an election is the archetypal impeachable offense.

Summary: Takeaway for Listeners

• Impeachment is not just a partisan tool or an act of desperation near an election; rather, it is a fundamental constitutional check envisioned specifically for cases involving abuse of power and foreign interference.
• The founders built the concept of impeachment into the very DNA of the presidency to guard American democracy from precisely the threats being debated today.
• Upcoming Amicus coverage will continue to explore these threats and the tools Americans have to address them.

For extended insights and more of the live Aspen Institute conversation, listeners are encouraged to check out the full episode or subscribe to Slate Plus.