Legally Brunette Presents: 'Til Death Do Us Part - John List

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Legally Brunette Presents: ‘Til Death Do Us Part – John List

Podcast: Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes Present (iHeartPodcasts)
Episode: Legally Brunette Presents: 'Til Death Do Us Part – John List
Date: April 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this true crime installment of "Legally Brunette Presents: ‘Til Death Do Us Part," the hosts delve into the notorious John List family murders, a chilling case from 1971 where List killed his entire family and vanished for nearly two decades. The episode begins with an update discussion on the Gerhardt Koenig trial before transitioning to a detailed recap of the John List case—a favorite of one host, especially for its coverage on Forensic Files and its unique twists of forensic artistry. The hosts break down the psychological, financial, and religious motivations behind the crime, examine List’s life as a fugitive, and reflect on the legal, ethical, and social implications.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Quick Update: The Gerhardt Koenig Trial

• Recap of Previous Episode (04:41):
  • The Gerhardt Koenig case involves an anesthesiologist accused of attempting to murder his wife during a hike in Hawaii.
  • Koenig testified in his own defense, claiming self-defense after striking his wife with a rock, alleging marital tensions and her purported emotional affair.
  • His son Emil testified, referring to Koenig only as "the defendant" and recounting post-incident FaceTime calls where Koenig discussed not returning and alluded to suicide.
  • Forensic testimony debated the number of times the victim was struck (prosecution said ~10, defense said 2–3).
  • Host reaction: Skepticism toward Koenig’s narrative and belief in premeditation.

Notable Quotes:

• "Usually when a defendant testifies... they're such a narcissist and they think they can talk their way out of it..." (E, 04:36)
• "The only thing he did right was hide the syringe. Yeah, he succeeded in that." (E, 09:31)
• "How does he... What's the defense against the son? 'That's not true, my son's lying?' It's not looking good for this dude." (E, 12:38)

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Transition to Main Case: John List (14:44)

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2. Introduction to the John List Case (16:15)

• Hosts express fascination for the case, particularly due to its coverage on Forensic Files and ties to classic true crime TV.
• Background:
  • John List: Model religious family man in New Jersey, war veteran, accountant by trade.
  • Lost his job in 1971, hid unemployment from family, and faced financial ruin.
  • In November 1971, murdered wife, three children, and mother; claimed later it was to "save their souls."
  • Lived under a new identity for 18 years before capture following a feature on America’s Most Wanted.
• Hosts position this as “a classic” and note the odd intersection of religion, family reputation, and psychological unraveling.

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3. The List Family Before the Murders

Early Life & Family Dynamics (18:03–21:11):

• John List’s respectable background: Served WWII, worked for Xerox, moved to New Jersey into a mansion with the help of his mother’s down payment.
• Outward image of quintessential “American Dream” family, but financial trouble brewed beneath the surface.
• Wife Helen’s declining health—later attributed to tertiary syphilis—compounded List’s stress.
• John pretended to go to work daily after job loss but spent his days reading newspapers at the train station.
• Financial desperation heightened by pride and an aversion to welfare.

Memorable Moment:

• "Instead of pretending like you're going to work every day and then going to look for another, Bobby just goes to the train station and reads the newspaper." (A, 21:11)

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4. The Crime: Planning & Execution

The Murders (21:13–23:21):

• List methodically murdered his family on November 9, 1971:
  • Killed wife Helen first, then his mother Alma, then daughter Patricia and son John when they returned from school, and lastly his youngest son after attending his soccer game that same afternoon.
  • Hosts express horror at his ability to attend his son’s game with family bodies at home.

Aftermath and Cover-Up (23:23–27:48):

• List placed the bodies on sleeping bags in the mansion ballroom; wrote an extensive letter to his pastor explaining the murders as acts of salvation.
• Systematically removed his image from every family photo to thwart police identification.
• Notified schools by phone that family was "on vacation," set the air conditioning to slow decomposition, and left music and lights on for weeks to simulate occupancy.

Notable Quotes:

• "He removed his face from all of the family photographs to make identification... more difficult. So he went around... and every photograph that he’s in, he cuts his face out of it." (A, 25:45)
• "He contacted the kids' schools and said that the family would be on vacation for two weeks... They’re in the ballroom. They won’t be able to come to school." (A & E, 26:33/26:38)

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5. Evasion & Life as a Fugitive

On the Run (27:48–34:12):

• List vanished, and his car was found at JFK. The case went cold as no clear images or leads existed.
• The mansion later mysteriously burned down.
• Over the next 18 years, List lived as "Robert P. Clark" in Colorado and Virginia, remarried, and reestablished himself as an accountant—seemingly living a normal life, in contrast to his supposed inability to support his original family.
• Hosts puzzle over his psychology: why work so hard under a new name if unwilling before?

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6. Identification, Arrest, and Trial

America’s Most Wanted & the Power of Forensics (34:12–38:05; 36:12):

• In 1989, his case aired on America’s Most Wanted.
• Forensic artist Frank Bender created an age-progressed bust, focusing on details like List’s signature glasses—crucial for his identification.
• A neighbor recognized him, leading to List’s arrest.

Host Commentary:

• "It wasn't just the glasses. A neighbor recognized him and reported him to authorities and he was arrested..." (A, 36:14)
• The new wife, Dolores, described List as a loving, gentle man—unaware of his past.

The Trial & Aftermath (38:08–41:00):

• Defense cited PTSD and mental illness; prosecutors highlighted extensive premeditation.
• Jury convicted List on five counts of first-degree murder; sentenced to five consecutive life terms.
• In interviews, List claimed he murdered his family to ensure their place in heaven and didn’t kill himself because suicide would prevent his own salvation.

Hosts’ Reflections:

• "He was the victim in all of this. And he was ensuring that he was... making sure that his family was going to... make it to heaven. And that was very kind of him." (A, 41:00)
• "Divorce is always the better option, right? Who cares what society will say?" (A, 42:21)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Religious Justification:
  "He carefully cleaned the crime scene... wrote a detailed letter to his pastor explaining his actions. In the letter, he claims that he killed his family in order to save their souls from moral corruption." (A, 24:47)
• On Evading Capture:
  "He removed his face from all of the family photographs to make identification... more difficult." (A, 25:45)
• On the Irony of His New Life:
  "So when he had a family, he didn't want to get a job. And then after he kills his family, he's like, okay, I need to get a job." (E, 34:12)
• On Life Lessons:
  "Divorce is always the better option, right? Who cares what society will say?..." (A, 42:21)

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Notable Timestamps

• 02:41: Introduction to “Till Death Do Us Part” and Koenig Trial Update
• 04:36: Hosts’ perspectives on defendants who testify
• 14:44: Transition from Koenig to John List case
• 16:15: Introduction to John List and his “picture-perfect” life
• 21:13: Financial pressures and plans for murder begin
• 23:21: Murders occur; List covers up the crime
• 25:45: List's methodical removal of himself from photographs
• 27:48: List leaves and begins life as a fugitive
• 34:12–36:12: America’s Most Wanted coverage, age-progressed bust, and arrest
• 38:08: Trial, psychological defense, and sentencing
• 40:55: John List's rationale for not killing himself
• 41:48: John List’s death in prison and hosts’ closing remarks

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Episode Takeaways

• The John List murders are a haunting example of family annihilation fueled by financial loss, toxic pride, and warped religious logic.
• Meticulous planning and deception can delay, but rarely prevent, eventual justice—List was caught thanks to evolving forensics and the public’s vigilance.
• Hosts critically confront societal and religious excuses for domestic crimes, advocating healthy alternatives like divorce over violence.
• The episode blends dark humor, forensic fascination, and pointed social commentary, making for an engaging and thought-provoking listen.

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Transcript

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Hi guys. Welcome to Legally Brunette presents Till Death Do Us Part, where we talk about cases in which wives try to get rid of their husbands or husbands try to get rid of their wives. And today we're going to do an update on the Gerhardt Koenig trial. We talked about it last week, so if you didn't listen to the episode, you should go back and listen to it because again, I feel like you'd have to live under a rock to not have at least know a little bit or have seen his face out there. This is the, the case of the doctor. He's an anesthesiologist who tried to push his wife. Allegedly he did it. Tried. He allegedly tried to push his wife. The Palipuka trail in Hawaii.

[E]

He. He attempted and he failed.

[A]

He failed miserably. And the trial has been going on and we left where we recorded an episode. Ariel had taken the stand and then also the witness and there were some other people that had testified, but at the time that we recorded it, Gerhard had not taken the stand. And we were also contemplating whether his son was going to take the stand and testify.

[E]

Well, we heard he was.

[A]

We heard he was.

[E]

It was hard to believe.

[A]

Right. And we didn't know. I mean, we didn't know if he was going to testify against his dad or what. But now we know. So let's talk about it. Gerhardt took the stand in his own defense, admitting that he struck his wife with a rock during their hike. But he claimed that he was acting in self defense after she allegedly tried to push him off the cliff and attacked him first. So obviously, if his, his whole defense to this trial is self defense, he's going to have to testify on his own behalf because obviously he's the only person that can testify as to what he claims happen. So what do you think about him testifying on his own behalf?

[E]

Usually when a defendant testifies, generally speaking, it's likely against the advice of their attorney. Generally speaking. But they are such a narcissist and they think they can talk their way out of it and they think that they're such, such a charming person that they can, they can get to the

[A]

jury, they can convince them.

[E]

Yeah. And they're not going to let her, he's not going to let her get the word in. He's going to tell it like it is. That's what I think.

[A]

So when he testified, he denied trying to kill her and he denied having the syringes during the incident. Remember how when she testified, she claimed that after he tried to push her to the edge and then she grabbed onto a tree branch and then he grabbed her by the arms and then they wrestled a little bit and then she fell to the ground. She claimed that he straddled her and that he reached down and like, pulled a syringe out that. But the syringe was never found at the scene of the crime. Obviously when he ran after she got hit in the head with the rock and the two hikers came along and helped her down the trail, he could have easily picked up those syringes and gotten rid of him somehow.

[E]

A wet, vegetated area like that, I mean, a little syringe tosses it somewhere far away. It's. It's going to be tough to find.

[A]

He said that the confrontation stemmed from their marital tensions after discovering her. I love how we always call it an emotional affair. It's very. Every article I've ever read about this case always talks about how she had an affair with a co worker, but it's always an emotional affair.

[E]

Bull crap.

[A]

Koenig also testified.

[E]

I get emotional tonight, babe.

[A]

I mean, would you like to have an emotional evening? An emotional.

[E]

I mean, such bull crap, everyone. It's like there's no evidence that actually sl sleeping together, so we can just say it was just emotions.

[A]

It was an emotional affair.

[E]

No exchanging of bodily fluid?

[A]

None. Koenig also testified about feeling, quote, severe emotional distress after hurting his wife and said he contemplated suicide. So this was him on the stand in his own defense. Probably, like you said, with such a huge ego and he's such a narcissist that I'm sure he truly believes that he can convince the jury of his genuine feelings and that she attacked him first and. And tried to push him off the cliff. And he was only hitting her in the head with a lava rock because he was acting in self defense because he was truly scared for his life.

[E]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Then his son testified. Emil. So Emil only referred to his father. I don't know if you noticed this, if you saw any of the testimony.

[E]

I did see it.

[A]

Yeah. But he only refers to his father as the defendant. Throughout the entire testimony, Emil said that his father believed Ariel had been unfaithful and he told him he wouldn't be returning to Maui. Gerhard asked Emil to care for his younger siblings. This is when he's testifying that after the incident, his dad called him via FaceTime.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

He also testified that his father FaceTimed him again.

[E]

So why would he think that his son would want to hear that, hear

[A]

that, or protect him, or any of the above?

[E]

Like, why would he think that that's what he needed to do if it was his buddy and. And his buddy was going to help him kill her and, like, was in on it, like his partner that way, or his mistress that was in on it. I could see that. But why would you think to call his son?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know what kind of relationship he had with his older son. I believe he's 19. But maybe he felt like they had a good father son relationship and his son wasn't gonna. Wasn't gonna turn on him. I don't know. And maybe he was in such an emotional state because he didn't know what to do. Can you imagine how frazzled this is?

[E]

The only thing I can think of is he really didn't know what he was doing. He just needed to reach out to someone. He was just a mess.

[A]

Yeah. Because imagine how frazzled he is. Because from my perspective, I'm going to go with, this is premeditated. He knew what he was going to do. He picked that trail. I believe there's forensic evidence of him doing. Doing searches for trails in Hawaii that have, you know, like, cliffs, you know,

[E]

where to hide a syringe.

[A]

Yes. So I believe that, you know, he had every intention of pushing her off of the cliff that day and then claiming that they were just taking a selfie, and she slipped. And I'm sure in his mind, he thought it was very simple. He thought, we're just gonna go out

[E]

on this trail and nudge her off

[A]

the cliff, and we're just gonna take a selfie as close to the edge as we can, and I'm just gonna push her off, and then I'm gonna be the distraught husband that's crying and says, oh, my gosh. We were taking a selfie and she fell.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

And then. But what happened was she fought her way.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

And then he didn't know what to do.

[E]

She was tougher than he thought.

[A]

Right. So then I think he freaked out, picked up a rock, starts beating her on the head, and then some hikers come along.

[E]

And he did not plan for that.

[A]

No, he didn't plan for any of that. So he doesn't know what to do. This guy's a. Can you imagine what state of Mind he's in, he just runs.

[E]

The only thing he did right was hide the syringe. Yeah, he succeeded in that.

[A]

Exactly. And I do believe that there was

[E]

a syringe because she said I had a blue plunger. She described it.

[A]

I mean there's no way that she went through all of that and then created like a fake narrative about a syringe in the middle of it. Like that makes no sense at all. It's enough just to say he tried to push her off the edge and then he beat her with a rock.

[E]

Yeah, fine, let's. We'll disregard the syringe. You can have that one, Mr. Koenig or what's his name?

[A]

Koenig. Yeah. Well, his name's Gerhardt. Last name Konic.

[E]

Killer. We'll call him killer. And when I saw that defend the, the son testify against the defendant, he seemed like he didn't give a crap about his dad. He wasn't emotional. He was just like, like, yeah, that dude over there. Yeah, he's a killer. Yeah. Put him in jail. Yeah, he did this to me. Like he called me like he did not. Like he was over. He was checked out.

[A]

Yeah. You're saying. Because we've seen other people, like even in the Corey Richards case we were talking about when the boyfriend testified against her.

[E]

I didn't see that one.

[A]

I did, but he was an emotional wreck. You could, did not want to do that. So it was very. He had a hard time on that

[E]

the woman that he was in love

[A]

with was a killer and then he had to testify.

[E]

Whereas this guy was not like, it sucks that my dad's a killer. No, he's like, I want nothing to do with that dude.

[A]

Right. So he does FaceTime again a second time roughly an hour later and said he was going to jump off the cliff before police could catch him. That's an account that contradicts Gerhardt's self defense claim because obviously, well, everything bit

[E]

of evidence contradicts his self defense claim.

[A]

Well, they had a forensic, some type of forensic person testify that apparently Ariel had claimed or her team or the prosecution or whatever had claimed that she had been hit in the head like 10 times. And then they had a forensic expert testify on behalf of the defense claiming that she was really only hit two to three times.

[E]

Yeah, but you know what, in all that struggling, I imagine it's possible forensically that they can show that that lava rock, which we discussed last week as being sharp, hit her and made contact and made. What do you call it, like abrasion laceration, lacerations two to three times or whatever it was. But in all that struggling, maybe there was a lot of wailing of the arms and she was kind of getting smacked around a little bit, but not necessarily like sharp contact was made to her head, like it might have been the back of his hand or something. So excuse her for not having counted the amount of times the lava rock came in direct contact with her head, resulting in lacerations.

[A]

Well, what they're trying to do is they're just trying to say, look, she. That she exaggerates, that she's embellishing. What happened?

[E]

Well, that body cam footage of blood all over her face didn't exaggerate anything.

[A]

Right. All right, well, we will continue to follow the Koenig trial. I'm not sure how much longer. I feel like we're towards the end of this trial and we're going to end up with a verdict relatively soon. So we will keep you informed.

[E]

Likely a guilty verdict.

[A]

Likely a guilty verdict. I can't.

[E]

How does he. What's the defense against the sun? That's not true. My son's lying. It's not looking good for this dude.

[A]

It does not look good.

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Really? All right, let's move on to John List. I don't know if you've ever heard of this. This is an older case. Actually this case fascinates me because I'm sure I've told you all this before, but I am a huge fan of Forensic Files. There actually is forensic files 1 and 2 and these are all, I believe the original Forensic Files. I feel like a lot of the cases are like in the 90s or was it it made in the 90s? Probably. And then the Forensic Files too. It's more like 2000s.

[E]

I don't know when it was made. I just know it's. It airs and it's a timeless classic.

[A]

It is a classic. I love Forensic Files. If you don't get excited when that

[E]

time stamp on that.

[A]

When that intro comes on and she snaps the glasses down in the. In the lab, like the. You know what I mean, where I.

[E]

I fast forward the intro.

[A]

No, you got to watch the intro. The best part of Forensic Files is the intro

[E]

or something like that, right?

[A]

All right, so this is John List, and this is, I would say, is probably one of my favorite Forensic Files. It really sticks out in my mind. That's why I wanted to go through it, because it's perfect. I do. I. I love Forensic Files. I feel like we should do a Forensic Files recap. Recap. Because I just. Just love it. Love Forensic Files. Anyway, also Forensic Files. I don't know why, but there's a lot of episodes that take place in Ohio. So that's just a fun fact about Forensic Files. So John List appeared to live a perfect religious family life in New Jersey. You got to love those perfect religious lives. You always know there's something coming up that's gonna be dark. But after secretly losing his job in 1971, he murdered his wife, three children and mother. In a planned attempt to save their souls from future suffering, he carefully staged the scene and disappeared, successfully evading capture for 18 years while living under a completely new identity. In 1989, he was finally identified after being featured on America's Most Wanted. That's why I love this Forensic Files, too, because they show the American. They show the America's Most Wanted clips with John Walsh, which is another great show. I feel like they need to bring that back. I think they are. I think I saw something.

[E]

Oh, yeah, America's Most Wanted. Yeah, he's. He has streaming stuff.

[A]

Maybe that's it. Maybe that's what I saw.

[E]

Active in kind of that.

[A]

That in that world. Yeah. And then John List was arrest shortly after the America's Most Wanted aired. He was convicted in 1990 and sentenced to life in prison, where he later died in 2008. So let's go back through this guy's early life and family life. So in 1925, John List was born. He served in the U.S. army during World War II. He met his wife, Helen Morris Taylor. John And Helen had three children born between 1955 and 58. And then the List family relocates to Penfield, New York, where John is employed by Xerox. They lived in this big, beautiful home that had a ballroom and multiple bedrooms and, like this Tiffany Light and all kinds of things. So I assume that he made pretty good money. So in 1965, he loses his position at Xerox. But then he goes on to purchase a large 18 room mansion in Westfield, New York, New Jersey. His mother Alma provides the down payment and then that allows her to move in with them. That's a good way to be able to move into your kid's house.

[E]

Oh, say I, I'll pay for it.

[A]

I'll pay for the down payment. I'll give you the down payment for a house. But I have to live with you

[E]

and you would require a big down payment.

[A]

I would require a big down payment. What do you mean? The kids would say I had to pay. They would say I'd had to pay for the whole house and then they still wouldn't let me live there between 1965 and 1971. L works as a commission based insurance salesman, but struggles professionally after two prior jobs fall through. On the surface, the family appeared wealthy, stable and representative of the American dream.

[E]

Key term right there. On the surface.

[A]

On the surface that would be now. In today's terms. On Instagram it would be yes. On Instagram they appear wealthy and stable.

[E]

This dog appears friendly in real life. This dog is dangerous.

[A]

The List family was deeply religious. There's another red flag. And attended church regularly as devout Lutherans. John List even taught Sunday School. In 1970, his wife Helen received treatment for worsening cognitive issues, later diagnosed as tertiary syphilis.

[E]

Oh.

[A]

Tertiary syphilis is a severe, late stage and non infectious form of untreated syphilis, typically developing 10 to 30 years after the initial infection. It causes significant damage to organs including the brain, heart, eyes and bones. I don't know how she, she ended up getting syphilis, but maybe it was from John, I don't know. So he pretends to go to work each day and instead of going to work, he spends his days at the train station reading newspapers. He's not even looking for another job. That's the part that baffles my mind, is instead of like, okay, so he's going to pretend that he's going to work every day. He's going to lie to his family and not tell them that he lost his job. But instead of pretending like you're going to work every day and then going to look for another, Bobby just goes to the train station and reads the newspaper.

[E]

He's looking in the one ads.

[A]

Maybe he secretly took money from his mother's bank accounts to keep up with expenses and he refused to apply for welfare because of pride and fear of embarrassment. During this time period, he became increasingly overwhelmed by financial pressure and expectations. Then on October 14th of 1971, John applied for a gun permit, saying he needs a gun for home protection. Then in early November of 1971, John's daughter Patricia reportedly tells her drama coach that her father has threatened to kill her family. All right. So then he comes up with a plan of how to deal with the finances and the embarrassment of having to go on welfare and the embarrassment of not having a job. He decides the best thing to do is to murder his entire family. So on November 9th of 1971, John List murders his entire family. First, he shoots his wife, Helen, I believe. She's sitting at a table drinking coffee, and I think the kids already left for his school. And he shoots her. So he kills her. Then he goes upstairs, and his mother is in bed. He shoots her in bed. Then his daughter Patricia, I believe, comes home from school, he shoots her. John comes home from school, he shoots him. And then the last son, I believe, had some kind of, like, game or something. He was in sports. So I think John actually went and watched him play sports while the whole family's dead. So everybody's dead in the house. He goes to the son's game, I believe, and watches him. Drives him home and then shoots. Shoots him. So now the whole entire family is dead. He then moves all of them into the ballroom. Well, and he spends the night in the house first. So everybody's dead in the house, Stays the night in the house.

[E]

How come he didn't kill himself?

[A]

I don't know. He should have. But he kills his whole family. And then he moves them all into the ballroom and wraps them in sleeping bags. He even attended his son's soccer game before bringing him home and shooting him several times in the chest and the face. How do you do that? How are you just a normal family man who goes to church every Sunday and teaches Sunday school and has three children and a wife and a mom.

[E]

He's not a normal family. Do you not see that?

[A]

Yeah, but how do you pretend to be a normal family man? Like, is he normal? And then something happens?

[E]

Well, partly. Why? I asked how long it was. But at the time he lost his job, from the time he went and got a gun, how long was he reading those newspapers? Maybe one crazy.

[A]

So within that time period. Or maybe he was always crazy and then he was triggered. Or maybe he wasn't crazy at all.

[C]

Maybe.

[E]

Maybe it was his mom living with him. Who knows?

[A]

You think it was the mom living with him? You think that's what pushed him over there?

[E]

That's when he Killed?

[A]

No, the wife was the first one he killed. He killed his wife first.

[E]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And then he killed his mom.

[E]

The two women in his life.

[A]

Yes, he killed them first. All right, so in November to December of 1971, this is how John List covers up this crime and escapes.

[E]

So he never planned on killing himself?

[A]

No, that was not part of the plan.

[E]

He was just gonna kill the people that he thought he'd be embarrassed in front of.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[E]

And he wasn't embarrassed of killing everyone?

[A]

No. And I guess because he was such a devout Christian. I always love how people use religion.

[E]

Christian killers.

[A]

Right. Like, even when we talk about other cases where people were like, I can't get divorced. It's against my religion, so I'll do just. I'll just murder my spouse. But I guess he. And he had such a reputation in the community, and he was an upstanding.

[E]

I would say that's exactly what it is. It's. It's.

[A]

It's reputation.

[E]

It's fear of people, not fear of God. Right. He's worried about what people are going to think of him, not what really, you know.

[A]

Right. So after the murders took place, he spends the night in the house, and then he places the bodies and the mansion's ballroom on sleeping bags. He wrote a detailed letter to his pastor explaining his actions. In the letter, he claims that he killed his family in order to save their souls from moral corruption. I don't believe that crap for one minute. I just think he was just embarrassed by the financial situation.

[E]

Yeah, he should have killed himself for moral corruption.

[A]

He couldn't afford his lifestyle. He couldn't afford the house. He was skimming money from his mother. He couldn't keep doing that for long. So he's like, how do I get out of this? I'll just kill my family. He carefully cleaned the crime scene and attempt to delay discovery because he needs time to get away. Right. And he removed. This part. Cracks me up. He removed his face from all of the family photographs to make identification of him more difficult. So he went around in the house, and every photograph that he's in, he cuts his face out of it.

[E]

And so, like, as if that's key evidence. Like, detectives use family photos, like, to try to find the suspect.

[A]

I mean, this is the 70s, so I guess there isn't. There's not a digital footprint of this man. It's not like.

[E]

You're right, it was 71.

[A]

It's 71. So if he removes his photograph from the house.

[E]

But there's got to Be other photographs. He went through every photograph, the photograph album and the other kids, probably parents. Where was the. Where's. Oh, he killed her, huh?

[A]

He killed everybody. There's no one left. And he removes all his photographs from the house. So I guess he assumes that if there's no photographs of him, then there's no way that they can put an idea of what he looks like out there.

[E]

You can also walk around with like Karl Marx, like glasses, nose and mustache.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

So no one could see him.

[A]

He contacted the kids schools and said that the family would be on vacation for two weeks.

[E]

They're in the ballroom. They won't be able to come to school.

[A]

Well, you know what? He needed time to get away and start a new life. So he does all.

[E]

Maybe he should have planned all that when he was at the bus station with the newspapers planning it then.

[A]

That maybe he was planning it then, I don't know.

[E]

And he needs more time.

[A]

He. Well, he needs time to evade capture. So if he gets rid of all his photographs and then no one notices that the kids don't show up to school. So he called and said the kids are going to be on vacation for two weeks.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

That means the school is not saying, oh, where are these kids? And they're calling the police. They're not doing.

[E]

The mom, did she work, do we know?

[A]

Well, his mother was 80 something and his wife I doubt worked, so no one's missing her at work. The mother lives with them. She's 84. I don't know, maybe they don't show up for church. I don't know. He turned the air conditioning on high so that they didn't decompose quickly so that there wouldn't be a smell. He left lights on and played music throughout the house to make it seem occupied so that people weren't being like, oh, there's something weird going on. I haven't seen anybody go in and out. He left music on, lights on and air conditioning on high. And then the next day he left the house and completely disappeared.

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[A]

Weeks later, the neighbors became suspicious due to no activity at the home. They're like, it's been the same song over and over and over. Probably right? Yeah. Police entered the house on December 7, 1971. Now remember?

[E]

No, it couldn't have been the same song over and over again. I know, I'm just joking because it's 1971. So it just had to be the radio.

[A]

Well, it said he. Well, how would he can. How would he play music in 1971?

[E]

Radio.

[A]

Just a radio. There was no other way.

[E]

Put a record. It would. It would get to the end of the track and it'd be done.

[A]

Well, maybe he just played a record and then it got to the end of the track and it was done. But he, he murdered his. Remember, he murdered his entire family on November 9th.

[C]

9th.

[A]

The police do not enter the house until December 7th. So he had almost a full month to get away. So the police enter the house on December 7, 1971, and they discovered the bodies. They also found the letter in which list explained the murders. Religious music was still playing throughout the house. Well, how did he do that? It says religious music. It. So religious music was playing in this house for a month?

[E]

It was a religious radio station.

[A]

A religious radio station like Christian rock?

[E]

Rock.

[A]

Christian rock? Yeah. In 71. Was Christian rock a thing in 71?

[E]

I don't know.

[A]

His car was later found at John F. Kennedy International Airport. Despite this, there was no immediate trace of him. Well, and they, they don't know what he looks like because he got rid of all his photographs. So nobody can. Well, they're like, we can't find him. We don't know what he looks like.

[E]

Even better, he should have cut and pasted like someone else's face. On the family photos. And they would have gone after that guy, right?

[A]

Some, some neighbor he doesn't like.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

There was no immediate trace of him and the case went cold. Oddly enough, the List family's mansion burned down several months after the murders. The cause of the fire was never determined and a new house was later built on the property. Well, you know what? That sucks for my, my, you know, I would like to do a legally brunette, you know, oh, tour road trip.

[E]

We can Killers homes.

[A]

Yes. We can't go to the John List mansion now because it burned down and it's.

[E]

What do you have on the list? You have Murdoch.

[A]

Yes, I want to go there.

[E]

Beverly Hills Brothers.

[A]

Well, I've been there.

[E]

Menendez.

[A]

The Menendez brothers house. We definitely need to go to Beverly Hills. Yeah, we should go to Corey Richards mansion in Utah that she bought because she wanted to live in the guest house.

[E]

See it when we drove by.

[A]

Right. We should go there. Yeah. I don't know. Well, I'll make a list. We'll talk about next episode. We'll have our road trip planned out. John List remained missing for 18 years after the murders. He moved to Colorado initially and then later settled in Virginia. He applied for a Social Security card using the name Robert P. Clark and gave a Denver motel as his address. In 1985, he gets remarried to Dolores Miller. The couple moved to Virginia in 1988 and he continued working as an accountant while living a completely normal life.

[E]

So he, when he had a family, he didn't want to get a job. And then after he kills his family, he's like, okay, I need to get a job.

[A]

I don't know. That's what I'm saying. I don't know. When he's sitting at the train station and looking at the newspaper, was he trying to actively find a job? And then he couldn't find a job so he freaked out and killed his family. Or did he just come up with this plan that he's like, I'm not going to get a job. I'm just going to kill my family and I'm going to run away and I'm going to start a whole new life? I don't know. In 1989, his case was featured on America's Most Wanted. A forensic artist created an age progressed image of John List. But listen, this image that they created on America's Most Wanted, they made a bust of him. It was not a.

[E]

Well, how do they even know what he looked like? Cut all the photos out.

[A]

I don't know. They. I'm sure they had to have found some photo or someone, I don't know, but they made.

[E]

Oh, they had to have an. They found a child photo. That's why they had to do an age.

[A]

Oh, that's right. You're right. Oh, you remember it now?

[E]

Well, it was only five. No, I'm just figuring it out because you're telling me he killed him in 71.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

And they found him in what year

[A]

his case is featured on America's Most Wanted? In 1989. I, and I love the clips of this because they, the, they don't do a sketch artist. It's not a sketch artist. They make a bus artist. It's a bust artist. They make an actual bust of him. And then it talks about how this, this artist that puts together this bust of his image went to like he had to go to all these places to find like the perfect glasses because he wore like this.

[E]

Wasn't it the glasses that did it too? Yes, I remember this one.

[A]

Yeah, there you go.

[E]

It was like the glasses, like he spent a lot of time figuring out the glasses. What kind of glasses would a killer wear? And he found them.

[A]

It was those 70s style.

[E]

Right. But he had it. He looked at his personality and looked at everything and figured out what kind of glasses he would have.

[A]

Yeah. And he found the exact ones that he wanted and he put them on the bust. And then that bust with the glasses was featured on America's Most Wanted.

[E]

Yeah. And then someone was like, my neighbor has those glasses.

[A]

Yes. It wasn't just the glasses. A neighbor recognized him and reported him to authorities and he was arrested on June 1st of 1989.

[E]

And he had those glasses. He did, yeah.

[A]

Yeah, he did. So according to the LA Times archives, his wife, Dolores Clark, this is his, you know, his new. His new wife, his new. His new life. Although he future victim, him, he should have. This is where he messed up. He should have not continued to wear the same glasses because then he wouldn't have been recognized.

[E]

Not killed his family.

[A]

I know. I'm saying that's where he messed up. I'm saying he, he evaded capture for 18 years. And then the reason that the neighbor recognized them is because he continued to wear those same 70s style glasses. So anyway, according to the LA Times archives, his wife, Dolores Clark said that she was making her statement reluctantly and that she would have no further comment. She said she was shocked to hear about Bob's arrest and what he was charged with. This is not the man I know. The man I know is kind, loving, A devoted husband and a dear friend. He is a quiet yet friendly man who loves his work and the people he works.

[E]

Going loving family man.

[A]

Yeah. He goes to church and he, you

[E]

know, all the things, his glasses and everything. He couldn't be a killer. Alert.

[A]

One friend unidentified by the newspaper said that John had told Dolores he had been married before to an alcoholic who had died of cancer. He told her she went through a slow, agonizing death. So this is what he told the new wife.

[E]

She died in the ballroom and the house burned down.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[E]

And what?

[A]

And he forgot to mention his mother and his kids and his three children.

[E]

Yeah, my son had a great last football game.

[A]

Yeah, no, it was soccer, Soccer, soccer

[E]

before I killed my family.

[A]

This is either the most unbelievable mix up or he is the biggest con man who ever walked the earth.

[E]

I'm gonna go with scenario.

[A]

Yes. This was another unidentified friend who was interviewed who told the paper in 1990 he goes to trial.

[E]

Wait, where's the forensics? Is it.

[A]

That's the bus. That was. It was the bust. It was the first. That was the forensic. Yeah, well, in the 90s, this is, you know, this is forensic files. Right. So that. That was the forensics. I mean this is forensics covers a lot, but it's not just DNA. So the forensics was the ability to make the bust and age progress it to look like what he would look like 20 years later and to find the glasses that he would be wearing and to. I think they even said he was probably working as an accountant or something because he has a finance background. And so, you know, they were putting all that other. At trial. The defense argued that list suffered from PTSD and psychological issues.

[E]

Please bear with me while I grief through this struggling time where my family is dead.

[A]

Prosecutors. Privacy prosecutors emphasize that the murders were planned and deliberate. How do you not.

[E]

I mean, it doesn't take a rocket science to figure that one out.

[A]

Right? I mean talk about this man plan. More than a lot of people we talk about about. I mean he had. He had it all planned out who he was killing, who the. The order he killed them in, placing them in the ballroom, turning the air

[E]

conditioning on, evad, shopping the family photos.

[A]

Well, he didn't photoshop in the 70s. The 70s photos. Pair of scissors. That's how you photoshopped in the 70s. That's how you photoshopped up until. You know, I used to photoshop in yearbooks is you just took a black marker and you just.

[E]

That's how you unfriended someone yeah, you just.

[A]

You just block.

[E]

Put an X on their phone.

[A]

Yes. You.

[E]

How many. How many of your high school classmates, grades have crossed out your photo in their yearbook?

[A]

I don't know. Should we take a poll if there's anyone out there listening? From Madison high school, class of 99. Class of 99.

[E]

How many people were in your class?

[A]

Oh, I thought you meant. I graduated in 91. I graduated in 94, and there were 99 people in my graduating class. Oh, yes. What do you think? 98 of them have crossed me out of the yearbook so far. Thank you.

[E]

Yes, I do.

[A]

Wow. I was popular in high school.

[E]

You were popular in high school?

[A]

Yeah. I don't know about now, but I was then. All right. The jury found him guilty of all charges, and John List was sentenced to five life terms in prison. Obviously, he got a life term for every one of his victims. In later interviews, John List said that he believed killing his family ensured their place in heaven. That was so nice of him.

[E]

Oh, yeah. Very good.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

He wasn't worried about himself.

[A]

No, no. He was the victim in all of this. And he was ensuring that he was

[E]

doing the hard work.

[A]

He was. He was making sure that his family was going to. To make it to heaven. And that was very kind of him. He also said that he did not take his own life because he believed it would prevent his own salvation. See, that is the most backwards thinking.

[E]

Well, it's not. He's just saying a bunch of. He's spewing a bunch of crap. He's just saying whatever.

[A]

Right. Because he's saying suicide is bad. So I didn't take my own life because my. Then I won't be saved. Right. He's saying suicide is not going to get him into heaven, but he did, like, this kind act by killing his whole family because then they could enter the kingdom.

[E]

Clearly, that's not the case. Clearly, it's. I. I want to keep living, so I didn't kill myself and I wanted

[A]

to get married again.

[E]

Now I have to explain it. So then he came up with some stupid explanation.

[A]

John List died of complications from pneumonia. Yeah, he's dead. He died in prison in 2008 at the age of 82.

[E]

So he's in prison for what, 20 years?

[A]

He went to. He went to prison in 1990.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

And then he died in eight.

[E]

So that's 18 years.

[A]

Years. Yeah. He was in prison for 18 years. So I guess there was some justice. Thank you guys for listening to Till Death Do Us Part. That was the case of John list and the murder of his family and

[E]

he would have been better off divorcing her.

[A]

Of course. That is our PSA to our listeners, divorce is always the better option, right? Who cares what society will say? You don't have to post it on

[E]

Instagram because what society's saying about him once he got arrested.

[A]

What a psychopath. Yeah, exactly. All right, thank you for listening Till Death Do Us part. You can find all of our episodes on the Legally Brunette feed. Please be sure to follow Legally Brunette and leave us a review. We love to read them. Also, be sure to tell your friends and family about Legally Brunette. Also, if you have any cases, especially husband and wife type cases, that would be good for Till Death Dose part. I love your recommendations, so please feel free to reach out and let me know what cases you want to hear about. Also let me know if you watch Forensic Files and let me know if you would be interested in a Forensic Files recap. So I think that would be fun. But I would love to hear your thoughts on that as well. And just a reminder that all of our episodes are on the Legally Brunette feed. However, there are some episodes in two T's but in order to access all of them, you need to access them from our own feed. So thank you guys for listening. We appreciate you so much.

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Autotrader? Buy your car online?

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Really?

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