AKA 137F Strikes Again (Brook Baker & Erika Norman)

Summary

Anatomy of Murder – Episode Summary

Podcast: Anatomy of Murder

Episode Title: AKA 137F Strikes Again (Brook Baker & Erika Norman)
Date: August 26, 2025
Hosts: Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi & Scott Weinberger
Special Guest: Hal Johnston (former Madison County, Indiana prosecutor)

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Overview

This episode dissects the complex, interconnected cases of three women: Brooke Baker, Erica Norman, and Lisa McCracken. Though these crimes stretch over more than a decade and were initially thought to be unrelated, investigators would ultimately uncover the chilling pattern of a serial offender and solve not only one but multiple cold cases. The episode emphasizes the patient, methodical work behind the scenes: how investigators and prosecutors connect forensic evidence to build cases and ensure justice for victims whose stories might otherwise be lost.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Unsolved Murder of Lisa McCracken (03:28–05:59)

• Lisa, a college student, was found murdered in her apartment in 1987: stabbed, sexually assaulted, strangled, and her body posed.
• The knife was taken from her own kitchen, and there was semen present. DNA was available, but there were no matches.
• Investigators noted the similarities between her murder and the more recent murder of Brooke Baker, raising the specter of a serial killer.
• However, when they compared DNA between Lisa’s case and Brooke Baker’s, there was no match. The link they had hoped for “was really feeling cold” – Hal Johnston (05:45).
• “When the science says no, you’ve got to go back to your standard investigative procedures.” – Scott Weinberger (06:15)

2. The Disappearance of Erica Norman (06:35–09:02)

• Almost two years later, in 1999, Erica Norman, another young college student in Vincennes, Indiana, goes missing. Her apartment shows signs of a “hellacious fight,” running water, her belongings in the tub—but no body.
• The victimology aligns: “White female, student, lived alone, sexually assaulted, stabbed—similarities all over.” – Hal Johnston (04:03, 08:28)
• The similarities suggest a “signature” but lack of a body precludes further action at this stage.

3. Investigative Breakthrough: The Search for ‘Beej’ (10:21–14:10)

• Detective work reveals Erica was last seen at a local nightclub/bar with a man called “Beej.” This turns out to be Brian Jones, previously unknown to investigators.
• “She left with Beach... there was this guy named Brian Jones. Who the hell is Brian Jones?” – Hal Johnston (13:16)
• Jones is established as a person of interest, not a suspect—he was simply the last one seen with Erica.

4. Interrogation Tactics and Brian Jones Interview (14:23–18:21)

• Jones agrees to be interviewed, admits being with Erica, but denies sex, denies knowing where she is.
• Detailed questioning (inspired by high-profile legal missteps) is emphasized:
  • “Go into extraordinary detail... Is there any reason your semen should be in that house?” – Hal Johnston (15:02)
  • Hosts stress the necessity of specificity in these interviews. Anna-Sigga notes: “Detail, detail, detail.” (15:29)

5. Connecting Jones to Multiple Victims (17:02–18:51)

• When pressed, Jones admits knowing Brooke Baker and having been in her apartment—but denies sex or having any reason his DNA would be present.
• Investigators begin to suspect a link between the Baker and Norman cases.

6. Evidence Discovery: Forensic Gold (19:07–24:43)

• Search warrants on Jones’s car and apartment yield nothing initially—until an evidence technician finds a thumbprint-sized smear of reddish material in the trunk (21:08).
  • “When they popped the trunk... one of the evidence technicians saw the most bizarre part of this story.” – Hal Johnston (19:25)
  • Testing reveals it’s Erica Norman’s blood (21:36).
• In Jones’s shower, investigators find a reddish streak—again identified as Erica’s blood (23:37).

7. The DNA Break & 137F Identity Revealed (24:53–26:14)

• As DNA is processed, Hal Johnston is in the field with the National Guard. He gets a call from State Police: “It’s a match. Brian Jones is 137F.” (26:04–26:14)
• “You feel it in your stomach. You are elated, again, saddened, because again, none of this is ever good news.” – Anasiga Nicolasi (26:20)

8. Jones’s Arrest – A Cinematic Moment (26:37–28:48)

• Hal is helicoptered from military exercises directly to the arrest scene, still in fatigues.
• At a roundtable, all senior detectives confirm: Jones is the guy.
• He’s arrested as he arrives at court for a traffic ticket in Evansville. Notably, “he never said what for, which we thought was interesting,” deepening their suspicions (29:09–29:31).

9. Erica Norman’s Body Found (31:24–34:48)

• A farmer in Illinois finds a heavily decomposed human body later confirmed (through a wallet and dental records) as Erica Norman. Manner of death: homicide; cause of death: unknown (33:06–36:51).
• Explains the process of a coroner’s jury, unique to Illinois/Indiana, as a layer before prosecution (35:03–36:21).

10. Trials, Plea, and Convictions (37:05–44:49)

• Jones pleads guilty to killing Erica Norman (60 years) but goes to trial for Brooke Baker.
• Hal devises his trial strategy: building to the DNA analyst as the crucial, scientific witness (41:02–42:31).
• Key forensic nail:
  • “Analysts had gone back and looked at Brooks fingernails... that material was consistent with 137F.” – Hal Johnston (42:47)
  • “Jury heard the case... He was convicted of rape and murder.” – Hal Johnston (42:47)
• Life without parole is sought. The aggravating factor of Erica’s murder is presented in the sentencing phase, which secures a life sentence.

11. Lisa McCracken Case Closure (45:10–46:57)

• Separate from Jones, Lisa McCracken’s murder is finally solved when DNA links the crime to Jeffrey Whipps, already incarcerated for another homicide (46:21).

12. Reflections & Impact (47:01–End)

• The hosts reflect on investigators’ perseverance and the importance of forensic science (“Without Erica’s case, he may have gotten away with murder” – Scott Weinberger, 47:07).
• They urge listeners to remember the victims—Lisa, Brooke, and Erica—and how justice was achieved via dedication and teamwork.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Similar victimology and the like, and that had never been solved.” – Hal Johnston on Lisa & Brooke (04:27)
• “If it walks like a duck and it sounds like a duck... they had thought that before, and DNA proved them wrong.” – Anasiga Nicolasi (09:33)
• “Go into extraordinary detail... I don’t want to have a lawyer come in later on and go, well, your meaning of sex and my meaning of sex are two different things.” – Hal Johnston (15:02)
• “When they popped the trunk... one of the evidence technicians saw the most bizarre part of this story.” – Hal Johnston (19:25)
• “It was human blood... DNA analysts said it’s Erica Norman.” – Hal Johnston (21:36)
• [On receiving the DNA match] “It’s a match. Brian Jones is 137F.” – Greg Winkler via Hal Johnston (26:14)
• “Now I have to prosecute the case... but what’s still haunting me is, where the hell is Erica?” – Hal Johnston (31:05)
• “Are you the same Brian Jones who pled guilty in this court... on the murder of Erica Norman? Thank you. Because that goes to your credibility. You’re a convicted murderer.” – Hal Johnston (40:05)
• “Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I can finally say someone’s name who... is Erica Norman. And Brian Jones had killed again.” – Hal Johnston (44:11)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Lisa McCracken’s case revisited: 03:28–05:59
• Erica Norman’s disappearance: 06:35–09:02
• “Beej” identified as Brian Jones: 10:35–14:10
• Interview tactics explained: 15:02–15:29
• Jones’s ties to both victims revealed: 17:02–18:51
• Forensic findings (car trunk): 19:07–21:36
• DNA breakthrough & matching: 24:53–26:14
• Jones’s arrest & roundtable: 26:37–28:48
• Discovery of Erica’s remains: 31:24–36:51
• Trial strategy & key evidence: 41:02–42:47
• Life without parole sentencing: 44:11–44:49
• Lisa McCracken’s killer identified: 45:10–46:57

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Final Reflection

The episode offers a gripping, inside look at the tenacity required to solve long-cold cases—how modern forensics, determined law enforcement, and sharp prosecutorial strategy converged to catch a serial predator. At its heart, though, this episode is about names, faces, and justice for young women whose lives were cut short, and the professionals who would not give up until their stories were heard.

Transcript

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Some stories never make national headlines, but stories from small towns and coastal communities deserve recognition, too. I'm Kylie Lowe, host of Dark Down East, a true crime podcast that gives voice to victims through investigative journalism and powerful storytelling. Set in my home state of Maine and the greater New England area, it's my goal to dig through the archives to bring the stories of the people at the heart of these cases to light. Let Listen to Dark down east wherever you get your podcasts. Surprise Beach Day no excuses, I'm in. Gimme five. With Bic Soleil Glide Razor, you'll have hydrated, smooth skin that's ready to go on the fly. No shave cream needed. You can prep, shave, and hydrate all in one step thanks to moisture bars that hydrate your skin during and after shaving. 5 flexible blades hug your skin for a close shave. Glide into smooth. It's your time to shine with bixsolate. Buy now at Amazon and Walmart.

[Hal Johnston]

Ready?

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Your skin looks amazing.

[Hal Johnston]

So smooth.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Beach ready. Let's go.

[Scott Weinberger]

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[Hal Johnston]

Hal Johnston.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Hi.

[Hal Johnston]

Hi.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

A prosecutor who's been in the trenches.

[Hal Johnston]

Did everything from military intelligence, became a paratrooper. And then after 9 11. I did three combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Scott Weinberger]

A dead student with the markings of a sadistic killer.

[Hal Johnston]

She was nude. She was displayed. I think there were 11 stab wounds.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

An FBI profile.

[Hal Johnston]

They said it's most likely a white male that she knows. A university student. This is likely his first kill.

[Scott Weinberger]

A killer with no name but a number.

[Hal Johnston]

No match on 137F. That's what we heard over and over and over again.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

And 137F was going to strike again.

[Hal Johnston]

That's exactly how we caught him.

[Scott Weinberger]

I'm Scott Weinberger, investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

I'm Anasiga Nicolasi, former New York City Homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discoveries True Conviction.

[Scott Weinberger]

And this is Anatomy of Murder.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

As a reminder, last week we were talking about the murder of Brooke Baker, and we'd interviewed Hal Johnson, a former Madison County, Indiana prosecutor. We had also left off talking about another homicide that had happened almost a decade before. So let's start there today. The woman in that case, her name was Lisa McCracken.

[Scott Weinberger]

Lisa McCracken was found dead lying on her back in her bedroom in her apartment near the university campus. Lisa had been stabbed, and there were signs of strangulation.

[Hal Johnston]

Once again, a young college student, white female, lived alone, sexually assaulted, stabbed.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Investigators found that her body was also posed with their hands laid out behind her head.

[Scott Weinberger]

There was no forced entry. There was a window that was broken. But investigators could tell by the way the shards of glass were scattered throughout the room that it was broke while Lisa was trying to fight for her life.

[Hal Johnston]

A lot of similarities there. I mean, similar victimology and the like, and that had never been solved.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

The murder weapon was also a knife taken from Lisa's kitchen.

[Scott Weinberger]

And just like in Brooks case, the medical examiner did find semen in their examination.

[Hal Johnston]

We did have DNA from that, though. So what we requested was could you take the Lisa McCracken sample and run it again against 137F?

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So let's just for a moment hypothesize. If there is a match, what is that going to tell us? It may not only hold the answer to Brooke Baker, but maybe this also other homicide going back to 1987 as Lisa McCracken.

[Scott Weinberger]

Just as a side note here on another True Crime series I produce, we interviewed Lisa's mother. And she talked about how Lisa had an infectious joy about her. And she will never forget the last words Lisa told her before she went back home to study for. And those words were, I love you. So that should give you an understanding about how we have two sets of families looking for answers for their loved one.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So the stakes or the potential if this is a match, are incredibly high for either one of these two brutal homicides. So just imagine how high tensions are while they're waiting for the results of that DNA.

[Hal Johnston]

And the conclusion was there was no match on it. If you're a year and a half into a murder case and you've interviewed scores of people and done dozens of DNA analysts, and you're not getting Any closer to anything. It was really feeling cold.

[Scott Weinberger]

But you know, you have to imagine this is a big blow when you're really depending on science to come through for you. It didn't happen at this point in this investigation.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So not only are their high hopes dashed, but now they're left to pick up the pieces.

[Scott Weinberger]

You know, the science usually gives them a good directive on where to go. And when the science says no, you've got to go back to your standard investigative procedures and still try to talk to witnesses, do what you can to get more information.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

But where we go now is even deeper and darker.

[Hal Johnston]

This is where the case gets a stunning development, but also deeply troubling because.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Let'S remember Hal Johnston's words when he said that maybe the only way to solve this case would be if the killer strikes again. So let's now move to close to two years later. July 5, 1999.

[Hal Johnston]

And here's what happened. There was an apartment complex just south of the university. It was a multi story building. And the manager of the building got a phone call from residents. They were complaining there was no hot water. So he goes out and determines that somebody's got hot water running in their apartment and they've just been renting it for who knows how long.

[Scott Weinberger]

It's in the same town of Vincennes, Indiana. The manager of an apartment complex decides to find which apartment the warder's been running. He quickly locates it and uses the master key to walk in.

[Hal Johnston]

He opens the door and goes in and it's a scene of remarkable violence. There are broken furniture and lamps. There's been a fight. It what appears to be bits of blood on the wall. And he goes into the bathroom and the tub is running and there are towels in the tub and there are cushions from sofa in the living room, but nobody's there.

[Scott Weinberger]

You have to go right to the issue that brought the manager to that apartment. It wasn't a neighbor hearing screams for help or the furniture breaking, but water running, towels in a tub and cushions from the sofa. No signs of forced entry. Does this all sound familiar?

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

The idea of a serial killer really was forgotten when police hopes were dashed of identifying the killer of both Brooke Baker and Lisa McCracken. But now they have water running and similar circumstances again.

[Hal Johnston]

And so this gets our interest because now we have something that appears to be a signature. But here's the problem. We don't have a body.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

The apartment belonged to a woman by the name of Erica Norman. Erica Norman, who was a Caucasian female, also a student of Vincennes University.

[Hal Johnston]

Well, once we identified who she was, detectives go back to the university to get information about who she was. She was not from Knox County. She was from Montgomery County, Indiana. Came from a very nice family. She had a steady job. She was a good student.

[Scott Weinberger]

Another white female student at Vincennes University. Sounds all familiar. And yes, investigators had many reasons to begin to compare Erica's and Brooks case. Also, remember, they have been down this road of connecting cases before.

[Hal Johnston]

I mean, the victimology is fitting. And I went out to the scene and looked, and there had been a hellacious fight there, but no sign of forced entry.

[Scott Weinberger]

So given all these circumstances, Anasega, I mean, how certain do you believe they think the two cases are connected to the same killer?

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

We know that saying. If it walks like a duck and it sounds like a duck. Well, they had thought that before, and the DNA proved them wrong when it came to connecting Brooke Baker and Lisa McCracken. However, you have now two homicides in much more close proximity. But remember, with Erica Norman, they don't have a body, so they don't yet even know that she is gone by sinister means or dead. But I certainly think that it doesn't look good. And this really raises the antenna of all, and they need to keep the other students of Vincennes in that community safe.

[Scott Weinberger]

So if they are related, police have a haunting thought. Someone is hunting down college girls in this town.

[Hal Johnston]

Everything seems to be matching up, similar to Baruch, But I don't have a body.

[Scott Weinberger]

Of course, everything begins at the crime scene. And in Erica Norman's case, with a lack of a body, it all begins, as we always say, with developing that timeline. Investigators want to know where Erica was that night and who was she with.

[Hal Johnston]

So what? Detectives determined she had worked at a restaurant in downtown Vincennes. There was a Holiday Inn where some of the kids would go there. It was a bar, nightclub place. Detectives go to the Holiday Inn, and they're like, oh, yeah, we knew the group there. So we start contacting people, and they're coming and saying, oh, yeah, Erica was there, and she got here about this time, and they kept talking about a guy named Beach. Who the hell is Beej?

[Scott Weinberger]

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[Anasiga Nicolasi]

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[Hal Johnston]

She left with Beach. I mean, there was probably maybe seven or eight kids together that all knew each other. And there was this guy named Brian Jones. Who the hell is Brian Jones? We've been working on this case for two years and we've never heard the name Brian Jones.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

How often is it that you right away get this name? There is this person they've never heard of before, but they actually have people saying that he went home with Erica that night.

[Hal Johnston]

So we determined he'd been a Vincennes University student living in Vincennes working at a local bread factory.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

He's not a suspect, right? Because we don't know that he did anything. A suspect is usually when investigators or prosecutors are really zeroing in on someone based on the evidence. Well, a person of interest is just that there is something piquing the interest more than just, you know, a whim of thought by investigators. And that's what they have here because they actually have this person named and placed as the last person that was with Erica Norman before she disappeared.

[Scott Weinberger]

So now with the name Brian Jones, the next step is to locate Jones. And there are a lot of unanswered questions, including is there a connection between Brian Jones, Erica Norman and Brooke Baker?

[Hal Johnston]

Detectives go out and want to see if he'd give a statement. He says, sure, I'll talk to you. So our senses are up, our radar is on. Something's going to happen here.

[Scott Weinberger]

We've talked about this in prior episodes, about the mindset going in to question a potential suspect, especially when they've agreed, at least in the beginning, to cooperate. You know, as the investigator, your frame of mind is critical. Your attitude or lack of attitude could be critical to a successful interview. But the most important part is a command of the facts to find those inconsistencies that someone who has not been truthful statements they cannot walk back.

[Hal Johnston]

This is at the time when Bill Clinton was being impeached. You know, the famous I did not have sex with that woman. Those lawyers don't know how to ask questions. Because what I always told the detectives was when you question these men, go into extraordinary detail. Have you had oral sex, anal sex, masturbate? Is there any reason your semen should be in that house? I don't want to have a lawyer come in later on and go, well, you're meeting a sex and my meaning of sex are two different things.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

And it was at this point in the interview that I could not have given Hal Johnston enough hand claps and knew that he was very like minded to me, at least in these ways. Because that's really it, right? It's all about detail, detail, detail.

[Scott Weinberger]

As difficult as it could be to listen to those turns as you listeners and as jurors, they're really important facts.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

If you just ask this open ended question, maybe it gets you somewhere in the end, but maybe you leave a lot out there for the defense or someone later to pick holes in what that actually means. But if you really drill it down to multiple questions and really almost box the person in again, remember, ultimately they're not going to be able to get out from under responsibility if that's where the evidence puts them in the end.

[Scott Weinberger]

So police bring Brian Jones to the.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Station, they put him in the room, they know where they're going and then they start to interview him. And one of the first things Brian Jones says is he admits to knowing Erica Norman.

[Hal Johnston]

He said, I met her at the Holiday Inn, a lot of friends were there. And yeah, my nickname is Beej for bj. I took her home. He said that they made macaroni and cheese, and they watched a movie for a little bit, and he left, and that was it. And he said, she was fine when I left. Didn't have sex with her, didn't kill her, don't know where she is, don't know anything.

[Scott Weinberger]

While this is getting to the direct connection to Erica, without a body at this point, it would be hard to prove she's dead.

[Hal Johnston]

Well, you know, we have no physical evidence to link into anything at this point.

[Scott Weinberger]

Now, investigators make a turn in that conversation.

[Hal Johnston]

So the police then say, well, did you know Brooke Baker? And he says, well, yeah, I knew Brooke well. Have you ever been to her house before? Yeah, I've been to her house before. And so we determined that he was living about two blocks away at the time of Brooks murder with a couple of friends we had interviewed. But those friends had never told us about him.

[Scott Weinberger]

I mean, let's go back to the profile of Brooke Baker's killer developed by the FBI.

[Hal Johnston]

They said it's most likely a white male that she knows.

[Scott Weinberger]

Check.

[Hal Johnston]

Most likely a university student.

[Scott Weinberger]

Check.

[Hal Johnston]

And he lives close to Brooke. Another check they get into, well, do you know what happened to Brooke? I have no idea. I left town after she was killed, and that was something. We were looking for somebody who would have left town. He said he's got a job somewhere else or something, moved to Fort Wayne with a girlfriend, and, okay, then he came back, the police then, I think Bob Dunham in particular said, well, did you ever have sex with Brooke? And he goes, no, I never had sex with Brooke at all. And, you know, Bob's very detailed. Okay, anal sex, oral sex. Master, is there any reason your DNA should be at 216Harrison? No, no reason at all. I've been in there before. I smoked marijuana there. Brooke didn't like that, but I smoked marijuana. So that's it.

[Scott Weinberger]

Remember we talked about the fact that there was no forced entry into Brooke Baker's apartment? Well, now with the interview of Brian Jones, the investigation shows that he probably was let into the apartment because Brooke Baker knew him.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So now you go from person of interest to suspicion on fire. You have. The guy that was last seen with Erica had also been in Brooke Baker's apartment at some point. It's not just hypothesizing. If there's a connection, at least there is definitely a connection. This much.

[Hal Johnston]

He also gave a DNA sample. So what do we have to do? Send it off for analysis? And we have to wait now for the DNA test to come back while.

[Scott Weinberger]

Investigators are Waiting for results of the test. There's more to be done.

[Hal Johnston]

In the meantime, we do some search warrants. I get a search warrant for his car and I get a search warrant for his apartment. They looked throughout the car and they didn't see anything that appeared to be unusual or potential forensic evidence.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

But when they look in the trunk of that car a bit closer and.

[Hal Johnston]

This is where the evidence technicians really win an award.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Here one of the investigators notices something that's going to take this investigation to a whole nother level.

[Hal Johnston]

When they popped the trunk and they looked inside in a corner, one of the evidence technicians saw the most bizarre part of this story.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

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[Scott Weinberger]

The interview with Brian Jones was paying dividends and he was also consenting to give his DNA. Enter CSI investigators who targeted Brian Jones's car.

[Hal Johnston]

A smear of a It's only about the size of a thumbprint of a reddish material.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So now that piece is collected often it would be cutting out that piece of fabric, the interior of the trunk and then it's off to the lab. Now, unfortunately, so often when you hear red smear, it comes back something as benign as ketchup or paint. But just maybe they would be onto something.

[Hal Johnston]

It was human blood. And we did reverse DNA with Erica's parents because each one contributes half of the DNA to the child. So we did a reverse DNA and then DNA analysts said it's Erica Norman.

[Scott Weinberger]

The blood of a missing woman you believe to be dead in the trunk of your top suspect's car. That has a really big development. How would he be able to explain.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

That now that you have Erica Norman's blood in Brian Jones's car, if he becomes 137F can you use one to answer the other? And really the answer technically is no. You have to prove the evidence for each crime on its own. However, there is something called modus operandi. Sometimes there is such a significant signature, if you will, of a killer. There are certain things that they do that are so similar that you can use evidence of one for the other. But that's something that you need to do later on in court and get permission from the judge.

[Scott Weinberger]

This gave CSI investigators and case agents an opportunity to really extend their forensic search to Brian Jones's apartment. Getting more physical evidence would really help this investigation, move it forward, and also could create a new theory.

[Hal Johnston]

Then the police in Brian Jones apartment went in and actually disassembled part of the shower. The shower door was an aluminum frame with a glass in it. And what they noticed when they removed the glass is that there was a brownish reddish streak of material in that, like a little gutter where the water would drip down.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Now, while it may seem an oddly specific place to look, it's actually pretty commonplace because if you think about it, whatever is on those materials is draining down. And sometimes even though there's water running, something gets caught. So they literally take out these pieces of metal to see if there's something in the trap and other parts of the metal piping that sometimes, the way that it's configured, they can still get something even when someone is trying to cover their tracks.

[Hal Johnston]

That was sent off for analysis. Once again, serologist says this is human blood. DNA says it's Eric and Norman. So what I have at this point is sufficient evidence to say he put her in the trunk, drove her somewhere, came back and cleaned himself off and screwed up and just didn't get rid of all the evidence. But I still don't have a body at this point.

[Scott Weinberger]

Anasiga, how difficult is it to proceed with a prosecution without a body?

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

It's more difficult, and I think I'll leave it there because you have all these extra layers that you need to go through to ensure that that person is actually dead. You know, we've talked about this before in past episodes. It's looking at their bank accounts. Have they been in touch with family or friends, if they work or go to school, have they been showing up? Have they been using any of their social media accounts? Different things. So while you certainly can get there and there are many cases that not only have been prosecuted but successfully, you're not going to get there as quickly because you really need to ensure, while unfortunate, that in fact the person's actually dead.

[Hal Johnston]

The link is to Erica, but I don't have Erica's body. And without a body, I can't say I got a homicide, I got a missing person, but I don't have a homicide.

[Scott Weinberger]

And what about 137F the DNA sample tied to the murder of Brooke Baker? Well, this next part of the story could easily be taken from a Tom Clancy novel in the likes of a Jack Ryan, best explained by Hal Johnston himself. That's U.S. army Lieutenant Colonel Hal Johnston.

[Hal Johnston]

I had joined the Army National Guard, I transferred from the Navy, and we're doing war games, annual military training at Camp Atterbury, which is a big army base in Southern Indiana. So I'm with the brigade there, 4,000 troops. I've been out in the field for several days and a sergeant comes up to me one day and says, the Indiana State Police are trying to get a hold of you. Now, this is before cell phones and all that. They said, your wife's trying to get hold of you too. So I called my wife, Jerry, and she said, greg Winkler from State Police is trying to find you. They have information for you. And I said, is it on Brooke? And she said, well, they wouldn't tell me, but they're excited.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Now you have Hal Johnson, not only a public servant as a prosecutor, but he is out in the field with 4,000 troops as part of the Army National Guard. And Scott's reference couldn't be more apt. I mean, there is no scene that could be better set in any movie than what you have here.

[Hal Johnston]

And this is like 11 o' clock at night. So I finally get ahold of Greg at his house, I believe, and Greg says, it's a match. Brian Jones is 137F.

[Scott Weinberger]

Wow. I mean, I knew the answer, but I never get tired of hearing him say that.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

You feel it in your stomach. You are elated again, saddened, because again, none of this is ever good news. It's good news because you are getting the identity of a killer. And now they finally have a name to 137F.

[Hal Johnston]

I said, we have to arrest him tomorrow. So state Police arranged for a helicopter to fly to Camp Atterbury. I got emergency leave. They picked me up at like 5am I'm in army fatigues. I haven't showered in several days. They drop me off at a local parking lot because the helicopter can get in there and I meet the team.

[Scott Weinberger]

So just picture the Here is a guy in full battle fatigues, war paint still on his face, and he jumps out of a State police helicopter to get a warrant to arrest the bad guy. You know, are we sure this is not Jack Ryan?

[Hal Johnston]

And we get together, go to a local restaurant where we can sit around a table, and we talked to him. I said, what are we gonna do? And I said, we gotta get the guy arrested today. I said, this is what we've been waiting for. It's him. We had all the senior detectives there. And I said, okay, guys, I'm gonna go around the table, I'm gonna ask you one question and I just want a yes or no. And I pointed to Bob and I said, is Brian Jones the guy? And he said, yes. Greg Winkler, Is Brian Jones the guy? Yes. Larry Ek, Is he the. Yes, I believe it too. I said, so let's go get a warrant.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

And meetings like this in these long term investigations, they're not uncommon. I cannot even tell you how many of these roundtables we would have in various supervisors, office and homicide are in our conference rooms. And you want to make sure that there is a real meeting of the minds before you take this very big next step of deciding to make an arrest.

[Hal Johnston]

I'm still filthy dirty, but I already had a lot of the probable gods done because I'd done so many search warrants. But now we could finally add what we'd always wanted to add, which is 137F is consistent with him to like one in so many billion. And the DNA analyst, in his opinion, says that Brian Jones is the one who contributed the semen. And so I asked for probable cause to be found for one count of rape and one count of murder for Brooke Baker.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So for a moment, if you're saying, okay, but you're investigating him for Erica Norman's homicide, but now he's arrested on Brooke Baker's but not yet Erica Norman. And here's why they would break that up, because at the end of the day, you want to get this guy off the street because they not only want to hold him responsible for what he's done to one or more, you want to make sure he doesn't strike again.

[Scott Weinberger]

Getting him in and him being charged in Brook Baker's murder gives you the opportunity as an investigator to sit him down and let him realize all that you have against him in the Brook Baker case, hoping he realizes that he's going to go away for a very, very long time. And perhaps he'll give you the information on where is Erica Norman's body?

[Hal Johnston]

Now, state police had determined that Brian Jones was supposed to appear in Evansville for a Traffic ticket that day. So they get the warrant, they race down to Evansville, to the courthouse, and as Brian Jones walks in, they go up and arrest him. And what's interesting is that they just said, you're under arrest. He never said what for, which we thought was interesting.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

And now here's something that's important for us to remember. No one is ever compelled to talk to the police. And you can never use someone's silence as evidence against them for that very reason. However, the fact that he doesn't even bat an eye. Not a why? Not a for what? Nothing. You can't use it in court, but it's something we can certainly think about.

[Scott Weinberger]

Ourselves, you know, While his reaction is not evidence of guilt, it is pretty telling. And Hal Johnston sets the scene in the courtroom. So.

[Hal Johnston]

Well, he gave me a real weird look when he came in the courtroom because he had never seen me before. I don't have any civilian clothes, so I've still got, like, camouflage on my face. And I'm in US army battle fatigues. So he's looking at me like, who the hell is this guy?

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

And I love that I picture him in these military fatigues, as he said, literally still with the. I don't even know what the word is for it. The dark grease paint that is under the eyes. And what a sight. What a bizarre sight that must have been for all. But it really goes to the real intrigue of Dasaul.

[Hal Johnston]

So we bring him in. He's charged with Brooke Baker, and of course, the media goes bananas over the whole thing. But Erica is still missing.

[Scott Weinberger]

This is the face of 137F, and it's Brian Jones. Will he admit the connection? And will he also confirm to investigators what happened to Erica Norman?

[Hal Johnston]

Is this connection somehow with Erica Norman? We're convinced it is, but I can't do anything until we find her.

[Scott Weinberger]

Is she dead? And if she is, where's her body?

[Hal Johnston]

Now our work really begins. This isn't solving the case. This is now I have to prosecute the case. And it's one thing to investigate and it's something else to get the damn thing ready for trial. And it's going to be a real challenge. But what's still haunting me is, where the hell is Erica? What happened to her?

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Little did he know, he was about to find out.

[Hal Johnston]

A farmer, he had a tractor out and he detected a smell. And he said, you know, I'm a farmer. Said, I'm used to a lot of smells of dead bodies, of animals and the like. He said, this was really unusual. So he stopped his tractor, walked into the field a few dozen feet from the road, and found this. He didn't know what it was, but he thought, I've got to get hold of the police. Foreign.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

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[Scott Weinberger]

The case took a dramatic turn after 16 days of intensive searching for Erica.

[Hal Johnston]

Indiana State Police get a call from Illinois State Police. They believe it's a human body in a cornfield. Farmers found it just off Highway 50, who, by the way, had a few years earlier found the body of another victim from Vincennes in his field.

[Scott Weinberger]

I mean, that's a bit scary to have not only one dead body on your property, but two. But obviously they're unrelated, but still a bit weird.

[Hal Johnston]

He called the county sheriff. First sheriff came out, looked, sheriff said, we need Illinois State Police here. Illinois State Police came out. The level of deterioration as such. This is in the late summer where it's extremely hot. This is very, very humid because you're down in the fields near the Wabash River. So high humidity, very high heat. It was unrecognizable as a human being. The phrase used by the pathologist in Illinois was necrotic mass. It looked like tar had been poured out.

[Scott Weinberger]

Necrotic, or necrosis is a process where human tissue disintegrates. And. And you can imagine the rest of that.

[Hal Johnston]

I mean, I've seen a lot of dead bodies, but this was extraordinary, the level of deterioration.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Now when you are left, unfortunately, with this level of decomposition, you can imagine how difficult it is to make sense of what led this person to be there. But there are certain things that usually remain. You often have bone teeth, and it.

[Scott Weinberger]

Gives you the opportunity to do dental impressions, dental identification and DNA testing to confirm the identity of a body in that state or that condition.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Sometimes there are clues left around the body, so that's where investigators really need to try to turn.

[Hal Johnston]

There was a wallet nearby, and the wallet was Erica Norman's wallet.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

While the wallet makes it likely, it's still not conclusive. Identification forensics will be needed to definitively determine that, yes, this is Erica, but also how she died.

[Hal Johnston]

So Illinois has to conduct their investigation, which includes doing what's called a coroner's jury, which is kind of an interesting process.

[Scott Weinberger]

Can you talk a little bit about what a coroner's jury is?

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

I'm gonna nerd out a little bit here, because a coroner's jury is something that I'd never heard about. So when I spoke to Hal, I really had him explain it to me. And it's a reminder why depending on where you are, really matters in these cases. Because in New York, for example, when you have a case that's going to be a felony, we have to present that to a grand jury. And that basically is making sure that we have enough evidence to move forward, even with the prosecution. But in Indiana, they have what's called the coroner's jury, which means that they can't even get to that until they have an actual jury decide on the cause of death. That they basically have to stamp or affirm what the coroner has said. Found that, yes, the cause of death was X, which means the manner of death is Y.

[Hal Johnston]

I think it's an antiquated system. 200 years ago, you just brought in the local people and they tried to investigate the case. You know, Midwestern states, a lot of our constitutions are based on Virginia, but, I mean, Virginia's old constitutions. So some of our. Some of our systems out here in the Midwest are a little archaic, but that's just what Illinois has used for years.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

It's really interesting to me that it shows all the different moving parts that you need to understand, not just where you are, but what's happening in other places.

[Hal Johnston]

When the body went off for the pathology work in Illinois, they did forensic analysis of the teeth. We got hold of the parents, which was horrible. Having to explain to them that we think we found your daughter. The Illinois pathologist gave a positive idea through the dental records. He ruled manner of death homicide. The cause of death it was unknown.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

When you get the undetermined, which sometimes you get when they just can't tell whether this is the manner is natural or homicide or what caused the death, it really leaves a question mark. Not only just don't have answers, but for a prosecution.

[Hal Johnston]

What I had were two murders. Despite my best efforts, Judge Crawley decided to give him two separate teams of attorneys. So you got one guy listening to two sets of lawyers. And the first set of lawyers on the Brook Baker case was headed by a local defense attorney who was famous for telling clients, I'm going to win the case. I am going to get you off. You don't plead anything, I'm going to get you off. His other team of attorneys are much more rational and seasoned and said, you need to plead to this because there's no way we can win a trial.

[Scott Weinberger]

Faced with all of the evidence in Erica's case, Jones pled guilty to murdering Erica Norman. He received 60 years in prison, but he pled not guilty for Brooke Baker, and that case went to trial.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Ultimately, the decision was made that if the prosecution ended up with a conviction, they would be asking the jury for life without the possibility of parole.

[Scott Weinberger]

But, you know, why do you think Anaseka, he would move forward with one and plead to another?

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

There are different reasons, and again, I'm just guessing here, but a lot of times it really comes down to time, the amount of prison time that a defendant is facing. So while getting a 60 year sentence would be the natural end of many people's lives, at that point, there are different things in corrections law. Even though if you get 60 years, depending on where you're serving your time, you may get out or be eligible for parole.

[Scott Weinberger]

Many years before, Brian Jones has already pled guilty in the murder of Erica. Now, the stakes were high because the Brooke Baker case would go to the jury. Would Hal Johnston be able to convince jurors that this actually was the heinous crime as he described?

[Hal Johnston]

So by pleading guilty, what I felt was, I've got that conviction in my pocket. Maybe he's really crazy and would take the stand, but if he did, he's doomed because the first thing I'll introduce is the copy of that conviction on Erica Norman.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Now, prosecutors love when defendants decide to take the stand, but with everything, there's also concerns, because now the defendant is going to give the jury their own version of events. And while you hope the truth shows itself for what it is, you never know, maybe the jury buys what the defendant's saying.

[Hal Johnston]

I think what he wanted to do was to get up and say, well, I went over there and have sex, and I left. And then the policeman came over and killed her. That's ended up being their defense.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

And here you have a guy like Jones who has actually been convicted for another homicide. Now, that type of evidence is normally never allowed in before the jury because it's overly prejudicial. And remember, a defendant, no matter what, always has to be convicted for only the evidence in that particular case, where here you have something so powerful and also probative, but the jury's normally never going to hear it. But in this case, Hal Johnston had a strategy for that.

[Hal Johnston]

In a criminal case, usually the defendant's criminal history is not introduced unless they testify. And you have what's called an impeachable offense. Well, in Indiana, one of the main impeachable offenses is murder. So if Brian Jones chose to take the stand, my first question is, are you the same Brian Jones who pled guilty in this court? And here's a certified copy of your conviction on the murder of Erica Norman. Thank you. Because that goes to your credibility. You're a convicted murderer. What do you think the jury's response is going to be at that point? They're not going to believe a word he says.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

If Brian Jones takes the stand, he can ask him the question if he had pled guilty and thus was now a convicted murderer. So there really is a difference, because the judge's ruling says that if they take the stand, the jury should know that because it goes to their credibility. Because again, if you're deciding if someone is telling the truth, you want all the information you can have that a judge rules is applicable in making that determination.

[Hal Johnston]

It was the case. TV stations in Indianapolis, TV stations in Chicago carried stories about it. Chicago newspapers carried stories about it. For the first time, I get a phone call one night from my sister in Texas and said, were you just on tv? When I sat down to prepare the case, I simply felt overwhelmed. And I was sitting in my library. I've got all this evidence out. I've got so many interviews. I mean, they interviewed maybe a couple hundred people. And I'm thinking, how the hell do I handle this? Well, one of the things I've developed as a prosecutor over the years to understand my case, it sounds odd, but I would play a game. And the game is, you only have one witness. Who do you choose? Well, my answer is my DNA analyst. And then I realized, that's my case, but I have to build up to it. I can't put him on the stand first. I got to build up to him. So let's say I can only have two witnesses. Who's the second witness? My pathologist. Got to get the pathologist in, because these two are dealing with facts. The DNA is a fact, the pathology report is a fact. The bruising, the rape, all that. That's a fact. So I started building my case that way. So once I came up with that, it helped streamline my case and allowed me to really focus, to build up to that point. And then I decided my last witness would be Bob Dunham, because he would then testify that Jones denied ever having sex with Brook Baker, and I would rest my case.

[Scott Weinberger]

At that point, Hal Johnson was ready to go to trial. There was a tremendous amount riding for Hal Johnston's case and for Brook Baker's family.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

At trial, there was another piece of evidence that Hal shared with the jury.

[Hal Johnston]

Analysts had gone back and looked at Brooks fingernails and had removed material from the fingernails. That material was consistent with 137F. And we had witnesses who had seen Brian Jones the next night and campus with scratches on his face. Jury heard the case, went out and deliberated and came back. He was convicted of rape and murder. Keep in mind that during the Brook Baker trial, nobody could breathe a word about Eric and Norman because there was a motion in limine, and I can't mention that murder. The jury was polled. Everybody said, that's my verdict. And the judge said, you're not quite done yet. He said, the state has filed a request for life without parole.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Let me break this down a little bit here, because sometimes there are two distinct portions of the trial. The jury found him guilty. So with that guilty verdict, there is now a sentencing phase in Indiana when you are looking for a potential sentence of life without the possibility of parole. Well, that is a decision that a jury needs to listen and decide to. And so it is now in that second portion where his guilt has already been established, that now Hal Johnson is able to actually bring in the aggravating factor of Erica Norman's murder as one of the reasons why they are still seeking this penalty of life without the possibility of ever getting out on parole.

[Hal Johnston]

I remember getting up and saying, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I can finally say someone's name who I have not been able to tell you about, and that's a young woman named Erica Norman. And Brian Jones had killed again. And the jury had a look on their face like, holy crap. And here's the evidence. And they went out. I mean, it was a very Quick deliberation because at that point they, they said this is too much. So the jury unanimously recommended to the judge that he receive life without parole. So at sentencing, the judge entered the standard sentence on the murder. And then he said, I accept the jury's recommendation of life without parole and I hereby sentence you to life without parole.

[Scott Weinberger]

For Hal Johnston and his team, for all the investigators involved in the Brook Baker case, there was a lot to celebrate in bringing justice to Brook Baker's family. But there was one more case that still had not been resolved and one more phone call for Hal Johnston to answer.

[Hal Johnston]

I happened to be at state police headquarters. I was actually working on the Brook Baker trial. And one of the analysts came in and said, what the hell's going on with Knox county and DNA and murder? I said, what do you mean? He goes, didn't you hear? We got a hit on Lisa McCracken.

[Scott Weinberger]

Three years later, Lisa's case had gone cold. And unfortunately it had to take another murder to know what happened to her. Now stay with me for a moment. A 15 year old girl was babysitting in a home right near hers. On June 17, 1995, she was babysitting a five year old girl when the house caught fire. But when police and firefighters arrived, the five year old girl was rescued and she survived. But they found the body of that 15 year old girl. Her injuries had nothing to do with the fire and it was determined that the fire was set after she was already dead. Witnesses near the home ID'd a local man as Jeffrey Whipps. Police went to interview Whips at his house and police said he acted and appeared so nervous he was sweating. They also saw that Jeffrey had a burn mark and blood on his shoes. DNA confirmed that he was also involved in the murder of Lisa McCracken.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

The Lisa McCracken case. That was the first case in Indiana, according to Hal, to be solved with DNA. And at the time that they got that DNA match to her killer, Jeffrey Whipps, he was already in prison serving an 89 year prison sentence for another homicide that he had pled guilty to. So now we have three separate homicides. Two related by the killer and one completely unrelated. Except you have to wonder if it was these two later homicides that brought about the renewed interest that ultimately got the answer for Lisa McCracken's family too.

[Scott Weinberger]

What an incredible twisty trony road in this investigation.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

When I look at this case, there are so many different levels and facets in it all.

[Scott Weinberger]

Brian Jones was just someone who could not take no for an answer. His drive to murder appeared to be sexual in nature, to dominate. Never once throughout this entire process did he show any remorse for his actions or his victims. And without Erica's case, he may have gotten away with murder. When Brian Jones murdered Brooke Baker, he took away a voice. A 19 year old who dreamed of being a storyteller. A journalist silenced in the most horrific of ways.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Let's think about these three young women, Lisa, Brooke, Erica and the voices they could have been. And the many men and women in law enforcement. And Hal Johnston. How it was their voices and their perseverance that made sure that justice was achieved for all three. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.

[Scott Weinberger]

Anatomy of Murder is an audio Chuck.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Original produced and created by Weinberger Media and Frasetti Media.

[Scott Weinberger]

Ashley Flowers is Executive producer.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

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[Hal Johnston]

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[Anasiga Nicolasi]

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[Hal Johnston]

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[Anasiga Nicolasi]

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[Hal Johnston]

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