Broken (Lisa Knoefel)

Summary

Anatomy of Murder: Broken (Lisa Kneffel) Hosted by Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi and Scott Weinberger | Released on July 8, 2025

---

Introduction

In the gripping episode titled "Broken," hosts Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi and Scott Weinberger delve deep into the harrowing murder of Lisa Kneffel. This case not only underscores the complexities of domestic power dynamics but also reveals the dark manipulation that led to a tragic loss of life. Through meticulous examination of the victim, the crime, and the ensuing investigation, the episode paints a comprehensive picture of this multifaceted tragedy.

---

Background

Lisa Marie Kneffel was a devoted wife, a loving mother of two, and a compassionate social worker dedicated to aiding vulnerable children. In July 2011, seeking to expand her compassion, Lisa and her husband, Kevin Kneffel, welcomed Sabrina Zunich, a 16-year-old foster child with a tumultuous past marked by addiction and abuse, into their home.

Lisa's Friend, Autumn: "Lisa was a very heartwarming person and everybody that knew her loved her. She had a big heart and, you know, she's always willing and wanting to help people that are in trouble." ([04:30])

---

The Crime

On the night of November 16, 2012, tragedy struck the Kneffel household. At approximately 1:15 AM, Lisa's 13-year-old daughter made a desperate 911 call, reporting that her sister, Sabrina, was attacking their mother with a knife.

911 Caller (Lisa's Daughter): "What's going on there? Who has the knife?" ([06:53])

First responders arrived swiftly, navigating a tense and potentially dangerous situation. Upon entering the home, officers found Sabrina armed and visibly distressed, holding a 12-inch bread knife.

Autumn: "Sabrina comes out of the room and she has a 12 inch bread knife in her hand and she raises it above her head as officers are giving her commands." ([07:19])

Despite the rapid response, Lisa Kneffel succumbed to her injuries, having been stabbed 178 times, leaving behind a scene reminiscent of a horror narrative.

Autumn: "It was one of the bloodiest of crime scenes that I've had in my career." ([10:01])

---

Immediate Aftermath

The immediate aftermath of the crime raised suspicions beyond Sabrina's involvement. Sergeant Ron Parmenta highlighted the rarity of law enforcement arriving mid-crime and the initial focus solely on Sabrina as the perpetrator.

Scott Weinberger: "Let me just say, you know, the movies and TV might lead you to believe this happens all the time, but it's actually very rare for law enforcement to respond to a crime scene while the crime is still taking place." ([08:48])

---

Investigation Unfolds

As investigators delved deeper, inconsistencies began to surface. Despite Sabrina's apparent guilt, her demeanor and responses raised red flags. Her claim of memory loss and the lack of an immediate emotional response perplexed the detectives.

Autumn: "She was just pretty nonchalant when we started questioning her. Like, you know, we told her she was being investigated for homicide, and she didn't react to that." ([12:12])

Simultaneously, Kevin Kneffel's behavior post-crime seemed unusually detached. His minimal reaction during the death notification and reluctance to discuss the night of the murder intensified suspicions.

Autumn: "He was just kind of mopey. He just would nod. There's no tears. Didn't have any questions." ([15:05])

---

Critical Revelations

The breakthrough came through digital forensics. Phone records revealed an alarming volume of communication between Kevin and Sabrina, indicating a relationship that extended far beyond that of a steward and foster child. A teacher further corroborated these findings, noting inappropriate interactions between the two.

Autumn: "There was a plan to kill Lisa because they had this $250,000 life insurance policy, and that she's worth more dead than alive." ([27:01])

Furthermore, Sabrina's best friend, Autumn, emerged as a pivotal witness. She exposed the extent of Kevin's manipulation, revealing plans that had been meticulously crafted to murder Lisa for financial gain.

Autumn: "According to this bombshell witness, she was privy to multiple plans to kill Lisa, but that it was Kevin, not Sabrina, that was the mastermind behind all of them." ([27:12])

---

Trial and Testimony

The courtroom became the stage for unveiling the sinister collaboration between Sabrina and Kevin. Sabrina's testimony was a damning account of grooming and coercion, detailing how Kevin had directed her to commit the murder.

Sabrina Zunich: "He told you to either stab her in the back, or if you're facing her, to stop, stab her in the neck." ([38:49])

The prosecution presented evidence of Kevin's calculated behavior, including his plan to make the murder appear as a robbery and his efforts to secure the life insurance payout.

Despite the defense's attempts to portray Sabrina's actions as those of a child acting out in emotional turmoil, the overwhelming evidence and Sabrina's own admissions left little doubt about Kevin's culpability.

---

Verdict and Sentencing

After a protracted trial, the jury convicted Kevin Kneffel on all 11 counts, including conspiracy to commit aggravated murder and sexual battery against Sabrina. He was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole in 2043.

Sabrina Zunich, who pled guilty as part of a plea deal, received a life sentence with the possibility of parole in 30 years, acknowledging her role as both perpetrator and victim of Kevin's manipulation.

---

Conclusion

The "Broken" episode of Anatomy of Murder unravels a chilling narrative of manipulation, abuse, and calculated cruelty. Lisa Kneffel, a beacon of hope for vulnerable children, became an unintended victim of her husband’s dark ambitions. Meanwhile, Sabrina, a child yearning for stability, found herself ensnared in a web of deceit and coercion, highlighting the vulnerabilities within the foster care system.

Scott Weinberger: "What makes this case even more disturbing is how Kevin Kneffel, someone who was supposed to be a protector, weaponized the foster care system for his own selfish gain." ([46:06])

This tragic case serves as a stark reminder of the profound impact of power dynamics and the dire need for vigilant oversight within systems designed to protect the most vulnerable.

---

Notable Quotes

• Sergeant Ron Parmenta ([03:26]): "We're probably about 10, 12 miles from the City of Cleveland, from the downtown area. But Willoughby Hills is, you know, we're about an 11-square-mile city with a population of around 10,000 residents."

• Autumn ([05:06]): "Lisa was a very heartwarming person and everybody that knew her loved her. She had a big heart and, you know, she's always willing and wanting to help people that are in trouble."

• Sabrina Zunich ([38:34]): "Because I said, well, it's too late now. I'm gonna go to jail anyway. Better just get it done."

---

Reflection

The episode concludes with a poignant reflection on the myriad of victims involved—Lisa, her children, and Sabrina herself. It underscores the intricate layers of abuse and manipulation, urging listeners to consider the broader societal implications of such tragedies.

Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi: "It's important that we end on Lisa, honoring her memory and thinking of her other children who now have to walk through life without her." ([46:22])

---

Anatomy of Murder continues to shed light on the darkest corners of human behavior, offering listeners not just a recounting of events, but a deep exploration into the motivations and systemic failures that allow such tragedies to occur.

Transcript

[Ashley Flowers]

Some cases fade from headlines, some never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers and on my podcast the Deck, I tell you the stories of cold cases featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark new leads and bring long overdue justice. Because these stories deserve to be heard and the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers, are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to the Deck now. Wherever you get your podcasts, Anatomy of.

[Scott Weinberger]

Murder is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. As Amica says, empathy is our best policy. That's why they'll go above and beyond to tailor your insurance coverage to best fit your needs. Whether you're on the road at home or traveling along life's journey, their friendly and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to ensure you have the right coverage in place. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to amica.com and and get a quote Today in the summer, all of.

[Chuck]

Oregon is our playground, thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon Lottery gameplay like video lottery or cash pop helps support tons of parks projects statewide, like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite dog park in Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play for many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery. Together, we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only. Must be 18 or older to play.

[Ron Parmenta]

Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving. Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teen safe. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.

[Sabrina Zunich]

Why did you stop when you realized this isn't going the way I thought it would?

[Kevin Kneffel]

Because I said, well, it's too late now. I'm going to go to jail anyway. Matter. Just get it done.

[Scott Weinberger]

I'm Scott Weinberger, investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff.

[Ashley Flowers]

I'm Anasiga Nicolasi, former New York City Homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

[Scott Weinberger]

And this is Anatomy of Murder.

[Ashley Flowers]

There are countless ways in which one person can exert power over another, whether that power is expressed physically, emotionally or psychologically.

[Scott Weinberger]

And as we've seen in many domestic homicide cases, an uneven power dynamic in a relationship can be not just unhealthy, but downright dangerous and is often at the root of an abuser victim relationship.

[Ashley Flowers]

But power in its many forms can also be wielded like a weapon itself, used to manipulate someone into committing careless, criminal, or even violent acts. Acts that can sometimes blur the thin lines between victim, accomplice and killer.

[Scott Weinberger]

With us today, Sergeant Ron Parmenta, a 30 year veteran of law enforcement and head of the detectives bureau in Willoughby Falls, Ohio.

[Autumn]

And ever since I can remember, probably, I'm guessing It was like 8 or 9 years old that I knew that I wanted to become a police officer when I grew up.

[Ashley Flowers]

Ron, like so many members of law enforcement, started his career of public service in the military, serving in the marine corps before working his way up through the ranks of the Willoughby PD.

[Autumn]

We're probably about 10, 12 miles from City of Cleveland, from the downtown area, But Willoughby Hills is, you know, we're about 11 square mile city. We have a population of around 10,000 residents. But the community itself, it's really a picturesque community here in northeast Ohio. You know, we maintain a delicate line between our country living and our city living. Our motto for the city here is, you know, where the city meets the country.

[Scott Weinberger]

Another public servant in their community was a woman named Lisa Marie Kneffel, A civilian social worker for her county department of Children and Family Services.

[Ashley Flowers]

Lisa was a wife and the loving mother of two children whose commitment to helping others, especially the vulnerable and the victimized, was recognized by all that knew her.

[Autumn]

Lisa was a very heartwarming person and everybody that knew her loved her. She had a big heart and, you know, she's always willing and wanting to help people that are in trouble. Not in trouble because they put themselves in that situation, but in trouble because, like they've grown up in a, you know, in a bad situation at home where they didn't have that opportunity to make that choice.

[Scott Weinberger]

Lisa was married to Kevin Kneighfel, a 42 year old truck driver. And they lived together in a modest three bedroom home with their two daughters, age 13 and 3. But as we've said before, Lisa had love to give. And In July of 2011, she and Kevin became foster parents to a 16 year old named Sabrina.

[Ashley Flowers]

Like many young people in the foster system, Sabrina was the child of parents who had struggled with addiction. She was also a survivor of sexual abuse and had spent many years Living in both group homes and foster families, her childhood had been rife with pain, loss and uncertainty. But moving into the knifel stable home gave her hope and a chance to reshape her future.

[Scott Weinberger]

Sabrina got along well with Kevin and Lisa's daughters and was quickly accepted as part of the family. But her adjustments were still a challenge. There were fights at school, arguments with Lisa and other instances of acting out, all of which Lisa handled with the patience and grace of a professional.

[Ashley Flowers]

But the escalating arguments between Sybrina and Lisa was taking a toll on the family. And even with attempts to smooth their family road, there wasn't much improvement.

[Autumn]

Lisa and Kevin had talked about giving her back to the county, but then it was agreed upon that they would keep her up through the time that she graduated high school.

[Scott Weinberger]

But tragically, Sybrina's time with the Knafels would come to an end much sooner than that.

[Ashley Flowers]

At approximately 1:15am on the morning of November 16, 2012, a 911 call was received by a dispatcher at the Willowby Police Department. On the line was Lisa and Kevin's 13 year old daughter.

[Sabrina Zunich]

What's going on there?

[Ashley Flowers]

Who has the knife?

[Kevin Kneffel]

My sister.

[Scott Weinberger]

Lisa's daughter told the dispatcher that she had woken to the sounds of screaming and entered her mother's bedroom to a nightmare. The sight of Sybrina repeatedly stabbing her mother.

[Autumn]

The female was frantic on the 911 call and at times it was hard to understand why is your mom gonna die?

[Sabrina Zunich]

What happened?

[Ashley Flowers]

She stabbed your mom. Where is she stabbed at? Police immediately responded to what was an active and very potentially dangerous situation. The now 18 year old Sabrina was armed with a knife and Lisa's two young daughters were still in the house.

[Autumn]

The officer's got to worry about their safety, number one, the safety of anybody else in the house, number two. And then you know, also deep down in the back of your mind you got to wonder if there's anybody else involved in this.

[Scott Weinberger]

First responders entered the home carefully, weapons drawn, clearing the living room before moving slowly down the hallway to the primary bedroom.

[Autumn]

When the officers arrived, they observed our 911 caller who was our victim's daughter. She's screaming in at the front door, telling officers, you know, like she's down the hallway and she's pointing as the officers are coming in to their left.

[Ashley Flowers]

In what was an incredibly tense scene, officers called for Sybrina to come out of the bedroom.

[Autumn]

Sabrina comes out of the room and she has a 12 inch bread knife in her hand and she raises it above her head as officers are giving her commands. Our officer that was given the commands thought that he was going to have to use deadly force on her because he didn't think that she was going to comply with his orders to drop the knife. After, you know, a second or two, she did comply with the officer's orders and did drop the knife.

[Scott Weinberger]

Let me just say, you know, the movies and TV might lead you to believe this happens all the time, but it's actually very rare for law enforcement to respond to a crime scene while the crime is still taking place. Subduing a suspect who is not just still present but is still armed with a deadly weapon.

[Ashley Flowers]

Which of course is a testament to Lisa's young daughter who called 911 and the response time of Willowby PD. The officers were able to disarm Sabrina, who was bleeding from several wounds to her arms and appeared to be in a state of shock and amazing immediately then they put her into custody.

[Scott Weinberger]

But when they entered the primary bedroom, they realized that even their quick response was unfortunately not enough time to save Lisa, who was found on the floor next to her bed covered in blood.

[Autumn]

They attempted to do life measuring safety caution on the victim and it was obvious that she was deceased.

[Ashley Flowers]

Lisa's body displayed what looked like dozens of stab wounds to her head, neck and chest. Defensive wounds on her hands, arms and legs indicated that she had fought desperately for her life before succumbing to her injuries.

[Scott Weinberger]

We just want to warn our listeners that the content of the crime scene may be graphic.

[Autumn]

It was one of the bloodiest of crime scenes that I've had in my career. I think when it started she was in bed and it looked like she was in a fight of her life. There was blood spatter on the ceiling, the wall, like right above the bed and then obviously the carpet was blood stained.

[Scott Weinberger]

It was like a scene out of a horror movie. And yet, for as bad and as disturbing as the crime scene was, investigators couldn't help but think what might have happened if they had not arrived when they did.

[Autumn]

We go into the master bedroom where this incident happened and on the right is the master bathroom and then on the left is like a walk in closet. As the officers walked in there, they heard what they believe was crying and they opened the door and found a three year old daughter hiding in the walk in closet.

[Ashley Flowers]

Lisa's three year old daughter was in the bedroom and had witnessed Sabrina's attack on her mother. Thankfully, she was at least not physically harmed and was then removed safely from the home.

[Scott Weinberger]

As for Lisa's older daughter who placed the 911 call. She was interviewed by police and was able to provide a clear and terrifying account of what happened, an eyewitness account and a firsthand account of Sabrina stabbing Lisa repeatedly with the very knife she was holding. When police officers arrived at this point.

[Autumn]

In time, it's not a whodunit, but it was pretty clear that Sabrina stabbed her foster mother, whether it was from anger or whatnot, but she committed the crime.

[Ashley Flowers]

An autopsy would later reveal that Lisa had been stabbed 178 times, including what doctors called complex wounds, where the knife had been plunged in her body and twisted, Removing any doubt that the intentions by Sybrina were to end Lisa's life.

[Scott Weinberger]

So investigators went straight from the crime scene to the hospital where Sabrina was being treated for her superficial wounds. Despite everything they already knew about the crime, her answers to their questions would still be critical to the investigation.

[Autumn]

She was just pretty nonchalant when we started questioning her. Like, you know, we told her she was being investigated for homicide, and she didn't react to that. Like, you know, most people, if they're being investigated for a homicide, rather, if they didn't do it, there would be some type of reaction. But, like what? That didn't happen. Told her that, you know, Lisa was dead and that she's the one who stabbed her. Her question back to me was, I killed her. Ask him a question to me. And I told her, you know, yeah, you know, you're the one that killed her. She said to me that, you know, if this is true, you know, the 3 year old and the 13 year old, you know, saw me kill their mom. And then she said nobody needed to see that.

[Ashley Flowers]

To Ron, it sounded an awfully lot like an admission of guilt. But Sybrina stopped short of making a full confession, instead claiming that she actually didn't remember a thing before she went.

[Autumn]

To bed that night. She said she was just working on a work project. She went to bed around midnight, and then she came down into the bathroom and got some ibuprofen, and then she blacks out. And then she all of a sudden remembers being in the back of an ambulance.

[Scott Weinberger]

Now, there was obviously no way to know for sure if this was true. Memory loss can occur in instances of a psychotic break. But to investigators, the blackout alibi was a little too convenient and also frustrating.

[Autumn]

I was kind of sick to my stomach. I was wanting answers to know why she did what she did so I can at least get answers for Lisa's children and her family. But Sabrina just continued saying that she didn't remember anything, which was very frustrating for us as investigators when, you know, they're sitting there lying to your face that she didn't remember.

[Ashley Flowers]

Despite having a suspect in the murder already, not to mention an eyewitness and the murder weapon, there was still so much investigators about how and why the homicide occurred.

[Scott Weinberger]

Ron also had the difficult task of making contact with Lisa's husband, Kevin, who was supposed to be out of town for work. And the goal here was actually twofold. It was a death notification, but as a matter of procedure, it was also important to verify his alibi for the night of the murder.

[Autumn]

We want to try to, like, verify, like, where Kevin's whereabouts were on the time of the day of the homicide, what time he left the house, where exactly he was around the time of the murder, so on, so forth. And we confirmed it was a truck driver and that at the time of the homicide, he was in the area of the Ohio Michigan border.

[Ashley Flowers]

So Kevin was nowhere near the house when Lisa was killed. But officers hoped he could still provide some background on why their foster daughter would have any reason to hurt his wife.

[Scott Weinberger]

But here's where the investigation had its first strange twist. Because upon Kevin's return to Willoughby Hills, his behavior struck detectives as more than just a little odd.

[Autumn]

I had a little bit of contact with him that night in our police lobby, which was very limited. Tell him we're sorry for his loss. And, you know, he was just kind of mopey. He just would nod. There's no tears. Didn't have any questions, never asked, well, who killed her? No questions about the house. He just did not have any questions. Somebody that's been a victim of a crime, you know, they have a thousand questions.

[Ashley Flowers]

It was enough to make detectives wonder if maybe Kevin knew more about his wife's murder than he was letting on.

[Scott Weinberger]

And that despite the overwhelming evidence pointing to Sybrina as Lisa's killer, this investigation was far from over.

[Sabrina Zunich]

Foreign.

[Scott Weinberger]

With summer in full swing, here comes that familiar urge to refresh your closet. But why waste money on pieces you only wear once? That's where Quince comes in. Their clothes are timeless, feel luxurious, look elevated, and the quality is way beyond what you'd expect for the price. Think 100% European linen tops starting at $30. Washable silk dresses and skirts. Versatile warm weather pieces you'll reach for again and again. My go to this summer. The Quint's 100% European linen relaxed short sleeve shirt. Keeping cool with a great look. Give your summer closet an upgrade. With quince Go to quince.comanatomy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comanatomy to get free shipping on your order and 365 Day returns. Quince.comanatomy.

[Ashley Flowers]

Whether you're lounging poolside, hitting the beach or relaxing at home, Rosetta Stone makes it easy to fit in a few minutes of language learning Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb and retain your new language on desktop or mobile, whenever and wherever it fits your summer schedule. I took French in high school and for a while got pretty good. Let's just say the years have changed that. So to refresh and improve, I'm starting Rosetta Stone. I love how easy it is to use and that I can do a little or a lot based on the time I have. And with features like Truaxent, the way you say things sounds better too. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. Anatomy of Murder listeners can grab Rosetta Stones lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit rosettastone.com anatomy to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to rosettastone.com anatomy and start learning today. Police in Willoughby Hills, Ohio, had identified Sabrina Zunich as the primary suspect in the fatal stabbing of her own foster mother, Lisa Kneffel. On November 19, just three days after Lisa's death, the high school senior was arrested and charged with first degree murder.

[Scott Weinberger]

Lisa's young daughters had witnessed the attack, and police arrived at the scene to find Sabrina holding the bloody murder weapon. So there was little doubt of her guilt. But her motive for such a vicious crime, that still remained a mystery.

[Autumn]

So I don't think we necessarily have an initial theory besides, you know, that Sabrina did kill Lisa. But at this point in time, we didn't have a theory that there was anybody else involved. There was nothing that really that was pointing us in that direction.

[Ashley Flowers]

But no matter how clear the case looked against Sabrina, police still had to collect the evidence to prove their case in court and unravel whatever circumstances may have led up to this terrible tragedy.

[Autumn]

So we looked at the crime scene. Obviously we knew we needed to get a search warrant, so that was our top priority, looking for electronic devices such as phones, computers, you know, things like that, just to see if there's anything that would tell us a story about what may or may not have happened prior to the homicide occurring.

[Scott Weinberger]

We talk about how digital forensics like tracking location data and recovering files can often yield tons of incriminating evidence. But sometimes just a peek at a call or text history can be the first step in developing an investigative theory. And that's just what happened here. No expert required.

[Autumn]

The first thing we're going to examine is going to be your phone. And when we looked at the phone history, we saw that maybe seven day period, Lisa and Kevin maybe talked about or text 50 times and that Sybrina and Kevin talked or text over a thousand times. And we thought that to be very, very suspicious at that point.

[Ashley Flowers]

Now, of course, it would not have been out of the ordinary for Kevin and Sybrina to be in contact, but the sheer volume of their communications hinted at a relationship more than that of guardian and child.

[Autumn]

I think it was, you know, a few weeks later when we got some phone records back and we started going through phone records that, you know, our eyebrows started to raise a little bit. I mean, we were learning that he was barely talking to his wife, who he's married to, rather text or telephone call. And most of his conversations that he was having was with Sabrina.

[Scott Weinberger]

Friends of Lisa's had described a growing tension between Sabrina and her foster mom over the last few months. But now investigators, we're starting to see why.

[Autumn]

We also had a teacher at the school say that there was times when Kevin and Sabrina would be at the school and that they would be acting inappropriately towards each other. And just to him, it did not appear to be the normal father, daughter type of relationship. He thought it could possibly be something more.

[Ashley Flowers]

So if Lisa had grown suspicious of the relationship between Sabrina and her husband Kevin, maybe that is the real reason behind her suggestion that it is time for Sybrina to have moved out of the house.

[Scott Weinberger]

Which means Sabrina was at risk of not just losing her home and also the man she may have fallen in love with, which, taken together, sounds like a motive for murder.

[Ashley Flowers]

But if that was the case, detectives wanted to know if Kevin may have been aware of her plan or maybe even complicit.

[Autumn]

We spoke to Kevin over the phone and told him we wanted to come in and talk to him and agreed. A few minutes later, his attorney called. And so the attorney agreed to bring Kevin into our police department to interview him.

[Ashley Flowers]

So, you know, it's interesting, Scott, I think people normally think about people of interest speaking to police or prosecutors without their attorneys present. But obviously it definitely happens. While we haven't talked about A lot on aom. It happens more often than people think in real life. But again, I mean, and you can speak to this from the perspective of law enforcement, but certainly from prosecutor, and having seen a lot of these videos, like, it doesn't change it all that much, except obviously it's more formal. Right. And so the questioning, I should say, is different because it's a different scenario. It's less casual, which I think actually does not usually make for potentially as productive or honest a conversation.

[Scott Weinberger]

As far as an approach. Anasega I think it's really no different. For me, it's just about establishing that you as the investigator, this is your interview. So whether he's in the room or she's in the room or not, all of that information will eventually get to that defense attorney. The only thing different is they have the opportunity, of course, to tell their client not to answer the question. But there is an advantage for investigators as well, bulletproof admissibility. I mean, if they happen to confess, it drastically reduces, as you know, anesthetic, the risk of a confession or statement being thrown out for potential coercion or Miranda violation.

[Ashley Flowers]

And I think that's exactly it. Scott, I think you just made a great point that one of the potential biggest downsides of this, while there's lots of upsides once you get to the courtroom with it, is the lawyer obviously stopping their client from speaking at a point that they see down a road that it's going. But, you know, these are all the things that it's. It's the balancing act, if you will. But again, here they had the lawyer, and so he went into the interview room along with Ron and Kevin.

[Autumn]

We brought him in and him and his attorney sat down. So we started asking him, you know, about the night of. I think that's how we started off is, you know, tell me about what happened prior to, you know, you leaving for work and is his attorney wouldn't let him answer that. We kind of got an idea that his attorney's not going to let him answer anything about the night of the homicide.

[Ashley Flowers]

And of course, that is his absolute right. But as an investigator, it also raises more questions than answers. And it did little to settle the suspicions they had that Kevin was somehow involved or at least knowledgeable maybe about his wife's murder.

[Autumn]

He only allowed me to talk about Lisa's work, what she did there, who her friends were, who she hung out with outside of work. But as far as any questions about the night of the homicide, he refused to let Kevin answer.

[Scott Weinberger]

And this is probably something that Ron was thinking about on a Sega when he posed a question. Could it be that the interview would be shut down? And that's exactly what happened, because he had asked the question of the nature of the relationship between Sabrina, Sabrina and Kevin. That's when Kevin's attorney shut the interview down.

[Ashley Flowers]

But as you all can imagine, it did not mean an end of the detective's questions or investigation.

[Autumn]

So our next move after that is we went and actually spoke to Kevin, Kevin's son from a different marriage. Thing that struck us was he recalled a conversation that him and Sabrina were having. And for some reason, the conversation was about, if they can kill, you know, one person and get away with it, who would it be? You know, not that they were planning on doing this. I forget who his son said, but his son told us that Sabrina said it would be Lisa.

[Scott Weinberger]

Was it a joke? Maybe. But given the circumstances, it felt a lot more like circumstantial evidence of premeditation.

[Ashley Flowers]

But aside from Kevin's son and some of those whisperings around school, the best and most shocking information about Sybrina and Kevin came directly from someone that knew Sybrina best.

[Autumn]

Her name is Autumn. And the reason why she is important in this case is because Autumn and Sabrina were best friends. And Autumn, we used to spend a lot of time over with Sabrina and Kevin.

[Scott Weinberger]

And this new young witness also spent a lot of time. Unfair Facebook. And shortly after news of Lisa's murder broke. She wasted no time in expressing her.

[Autumn]

Opinions online after the homicide happened. It might even been that day, or maybe a day after Autumn posted a message on Facebook, said something about, you know, oh, my God, you know, that was my friend speaking of Sabrina, and stated, you know, that Autumn didn't think that Sabrina would do this, as if it was planned out.

[Ashley Flowers]

The post raised even more eyebrows. By what they read next, Sybrina's friend made it clear that in the past, Sybrina had actually talked about killing her foster mom.

[Autumn]

The Facebook page said something about she thought that Sybrina was bluffing when she told her that she was gonna do this, but she just figured, like other kids, that they hate their parents and they all say they want to kill their parents, but they don't actually kill their parents.

[Scott Weinberger]

When questioned by police, Autumn confirmed that the tension between Sabrina and Lisa had everything to do with a brewing affair between her and Kevin, and that Kevin had even been exploring ways for them to stay together if he and Lisa got divorced.

[Ashley Flowers]

But then the talk of divorce, it evolved into something much darker.

[Autumn]

Autumn said that there was a plan to kill Lisa because they had this 750, $50,000 life insurance policy, and that she's worth more dead than alive.

[Scott Weinberger]

And in fact, according to this bombshell witness, she was privy to multiple plans to kill Lisa, but that it was Kevin, not Sabrina, that was the mastermind behind all of them.

[Autumn]

You know, they had a couple different plans. The first plan was they were going to make it look like a robbery. The other plan was Kevin asked Autumn if she can get a hitman. And because I guess, allegedly Autumn had some type of connections to some mafia people.

[Ashley Flowers]

Now that her connection to hitman, well, that turned out to be more teenage fantasy than reality. But Kevin's intentions to kill his wife, those seem to be very real.

[Autumn]

She was just kind of putting Kevin off, but kept saying that she's working at it, she's working at it. And I think just after some time, Kevin got impatient, so him and Sabrina moved on to a another phase of him them killing Lisa.

[Scott Weinberger]

Sabrina's friend became a critical, cooperating witness in the investigation. And in hopes that she may be able to get Kevin to incriminate himself, investigators even got her to pay Kevin a visit. And she also wore a wire. And what I mean by that is a hidden recording device. And to protect her identification, we have altered Autumn's voice.

[Autumn]

We're with Autumn, wired her up.

[Scott Weinberger]

We're going to Kevin Knavel's home at.

[Autumn]

2518 Chagrin Drive, and we're going to attempt to talk to him about his activities. She calls him and, you know, starts making some small talk with him. He knows exactly who she is. You know, it's clear as day.

[Sabrina Zunich]

I wanted to see if I could talk to you. Yes. All right, what about? Just some things that have been bothering me lately. And, like, I'm really nervous about a lot. There's cops that have been contacting my dad, trying to find me, and I have no idea what's going on. Like, what am I supposed to say to them? Because of the whole, like, the hitman, they live, we would talk to violence.

[Autumn]

She starts saying, you know, hey, I'm. I'm getting scared. The law enforcement's out sniffing my way. You know, I don't know what to do. You know, he just says, you know, just do your own thing. Keep your mouth shut.

[Sabrina Zunich]

She also said that you and her collaborated or put together some type of plan that you were going to make it look like you guys are to try and make it look like a robbery the hitman didn't go through. So it's like, well, how are you going to do that? Well, she goes, well, Kevin told me that I should go in to her room while she's sleeping and put the pillow over her head. With that gun? With a gun, and then just shovel it on some jewelry and make it look like a robbery.

[Autumn]

If I wanted someone good, it would have been.

[Sabrina Zunich]

Have done, because I have a lot of right.

[Ashley Flowers]

That conversation left little doubt that Sabrina's friend Autumn and Kevin, that they not only knew each other, but that she knew information that could incriminate him, and that he was also, from the way he sounds, clearly suspicious that he might be walking into a trap.

[Sabrina Zunich]

Do you think if I got a lawyer, that would look bad?

[Autumn]

All reason we need to get a.

[Sabrina Zunich]

Lawyer is if you. You're in trouble.

[Autumn]

So Autumn calls him back five or six times over the next two days, and he never answers the phone.

[Scott Weinberger]

So what, if anything, did investigators get from this, if nothing else, that they were definitely on the right track.

[Autumn]

I even made a. Made a telephone call to Kevin. I know that he had just talked to Autumn that day. So I called him, and I was like, hey, you know, Kevin, there's a couple names that are coming up. I just want to know if you're familiar with them. So I read it off. A couple names. He's like, no, I don't know who that is. No, I don't know who that is. When it came to Autumn, he was like, yeah, that name vaguely sounds familiar. You know, I don't know where she went. You know, she. I heard. Last time I heard she's in California or something. And I don't know what's going on with her. I haven't heard from her. Knowing that he just talked to her, like, either that day or the day before.

[Ashley Flowers]

So now they had more than just their suspicions. Now they had proof that he was lying.

[Scott Weinberger]

Not only that, there was reason to believe that with or without Sybrina, he was already trying to cash in on the murder.

[Autumn]

There was a life insurance policy for. I want to say it was like, $250,000. One of the policies were that the agent was calling me, asking me if Kevin was cleared as a suspect because he was asking for this money. You know, we told this employee that, you know, he has not been cleared at this time.

[Ashley Flowers]

It was becoming clear that Kevin's motive to kill his wife was not so much his affair with his young foster daughter, but the windfall that Lisa's death would bring. And the longer Sybrina sat in jail, the more that reality Began to set in.

[Scott Weinberger]

Feeling abandoned and manipulated by her foster father and the man she was having a relationship with. She finally agreed to cooperate with investigators in early August of 2013.

[Autumn]

After multiple talks between our attorney and Sabrina's attorney, it was agreed upon that she would do a proffer. A proffer is basically you come in, you tell exactly what happened. You know, you be as truthful as you can be, obviously. And, you know, what we would do with that information is we would try and figure out if this is usable or not.

[Ashley Flowers]

As part of her conversation with police, in the presence of her attorney, Sabrina gave a detailed confession outlining her relationship with Kevin Kneffel and the planning of Lisa's murder. Here is part of Sabrina Zunich's conversation with police.

[Sabrina Zunich]

Take us back a little bit in terms of when this first started to be discussed between yourself and Kevin and who brought it up, whose idea it was, and what the details of that were.

[Kevin Kneffel]

It was Kevin's idea, and it was talked about after we were having sexual relations and him and Lisa were having problems in marriage.

[Autumn]

So she confirmed what Autumn told us about the multiple times, the different plans that they had to kill Lisa.

[Scott Weinberger]

But as shocking as her confession was, her description of her relationship with Kevin Kneffel was almost just as disturbing.

[Sabrina Zunich]

When was it after you started to live there on a daily basis that your relationship with Kevin changed?

[Kevin Kneffel]

It all started not with sex, but with massages because he was a truck driver and his legs would cramp, so it was inner thigh, and then it progressively moved on.

[Ashley Flowers]

She described how it progressed to multiple sexual encounters. In all, Sabrina described how Kevin had begun grooming her as early as 2012, when she was just 16 and had just moved into the canal home. And obviously, it goes without saying that as a survivor of sexual abuse, Sabrina had been in need of a safe refuge. Instead, she found herself in the crosshairs of a predator.

[Sabrina Zunich]

Does he ever tell you, hey, you can't tell anybody about this all the time. Okay, what would happen? Did you say what would happen if you told her?

[Kevin Kneffel]

Then you'd be taken out of my care and I could lose my foster parent license.

[Scott Weinberger]

According to Sybrina, she had fallen in love with the man that promised to love and protect her. The only thing threatening that promise was was his wife, Lisa.

[Ashley Flowers]

Summer is here. And your to do list hasn't gotten any shorter. Remember that patio set you promised to build by Memorial Day? Or the grouting tutorial you watched but never actually followed? Enter TaskRabbit. Your secret weapon for a carefree summer TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers to help with moving, mounting, furniture assembly, home repairs, and more. Why wait for you to do it when a tasker can do it instead? I've called Taskers to do everything in my home from hanging pictures, assembling furniture, and next up on my list is to get some help with furniture that needs to be moved every time. They've been reliable on time and helped whittle down my to do list. That's worth a ton to me. Tackle your to do list list today and get 15% off your first [e-mail] or in the TaskRabbit app using promo code Anatomy. That's Promo code [e-mail] for 15% off your task. TaskRabbit book trusted help for home tasks.

[Chuck]

In the summer all of Oregon is our playground thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon Lottery gameplay, like the video lottery or cash pop helps support tons of parks projects statewide like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite dog park in Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play for many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery. Together we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only. Must be 18 or older to play.

[Autumn]

He had promised Sabrina that, you know, they would live in this white house, this white picket fence, and they would have children together, grow up happily and not be bothered by anybody. She would never have to go back into foster care ever again. He just really played into her.

[Ashley Flowers]

You know, Scott, we just have to stop here for a moment because here we have like just in what Ron's describing, it's an adult manipulating a teen who we've already heard has had a rough road and is vulnerable. He's basically promising her everything she would want most, stability and love.

[Scott Weinberger]

Completely taking advantage of her history, knowing that a father figure or a mother figure was all that she was really looking for for as long as she was in the foster system. So playing on that vulnerability and giving her hope of a real significant family and somebody to take care of her was how he weaponized the situation. And it's clear to see that Sabrina had second thoughts. But Kevin was relentless. Sabrina even claimed that on the morning before the murder, Kevin cried and told her he would kill himself if Lisa wasn't dead.

[Kevin Kneffel]

After he brought up, well, look, I'm going to kill myself if she doesn't leave because I Can't deal with this anymore. That was afterwards. And so when he said that, it kind of triggered me. I was like, no, I don't want that to happen. And so I was like, okay, I'll do it.

[Autumn]

She was remorseful. She felt very bad about the death of Lisa. She recalled exactly what happened. You know, that ibuprofen story was a hoax.

[Ashley Flowers]

According to Sybrina's statement to police, the plan was Kevin's, a plan that conveniently left him out of the house and out of town. On the night of the murder. She confirmed that it was Kevin who also told her how to commit the crime and even what knife to take from the kitchen drawer. We do want to warn you, the following conversation is graphic and disturbing.

[Sabrina Zunich]

Was there any discussion about what knife to use?

[Kevin Kneffel]

Yes.

[Sabrina Zunich]

How did that go down?

[Kevin Kneffel]

It was, what knife should I use? Use this bread knife, because there's gripping on it and there's ridges and it's long. Therefore, go in and stab her and twist it and jab it. Don't take it out. But so this way there would be bleeding to death and too much cutting up for her to live. And so we went to the kitchen. He showed me and showed you the knife and which one to use. And he was like, I do not know word for word. But it was going over the specifics, using the knife, what kind of knife to use, how to do it. Either if she's laying on her side with her back towards you, go for. In between the shoulder blades, or if you can get to the other side without her waking up, go for the neck or go, don't go for the heart. Because it could be possible that it would not work.

[Sabrina Zunich]

So he told you to either stab her in the back, or if she's facing you or you're facing her, to stop, stab her in the neck.

[Kevin Kneffel]

Correct.

[Autumn]

Told me that she came down the night of November 16, 2012. It was about one in the morning. She said that Lisa was sleeping on her bed. She got the knife that Kevin told her to get, got on top of Lisa and started stabbing her in the chest, in the head, face, on her arms, her fingers, her hands, until she stopped moving.

[Scott Weinberger]

When asked why, why she continued stabbing Lisa so many times, Sabrina's reply is chilling.

[Kevin Kneffel]

Because I said, well, it's too late now. I'm gonna go to jail anyway. Better just get it done.

[Ashley Flowers]

Sabrina Zurich agreed to testify against Kevin Kneffel at his trial as part of her plea deal and accepted full responsibility for her actions. And as horrible as those actions were, it was also clear that she too had been victimized by Knavefel.

[Autumn]

There's absolutely no doubt about it. She's a victim doing this profession for as long as I have. We know that, you know, kids in foster care are vulnerable. There's no question that Kevin Knefel took full advantage of Sabrina's vulnerability.

[Scott Weinberger]

There is just another aspect of this crime that I think also showed just how cold blooded Knifel was and that it was his plan and to have Sabrina kill Lisa in their home while his own children were there, with no consideration for their safety, both physical or psychological.

[Autumn]

Every plan that was told to us by Sabrina and by Autumn all involved them killing Lisa at the house. It did not involve, you know, when the kids were away or when Lisa was at a different place other than the house. Every single plan was about them at the house.

[Ashley Flowers]

The investigation had exposed Kevin Knaefel as a master manipulator, a remorseless predator unashamed to victimize one young life entrusted to his care and plot the taking of another. And with Sybrina's statement, police believed they now had enough to arrest him for the murder.

[Autumn]

So at the time, I was part of the U.S. marshal violent fugitives Task Force. We end up, you know, getting our team together. We were aware that there were guns in the house, so we had brought up proper equipment and came to the door. He came down defeated and we took him into custody with no, no issues.

[Scott Weinberger]

Kevin Knafel was indicted on charges of conspiracy to commit aggravated murder as well as six counts of sexual battery relating to his statutory sexual assault of the then 16 year old Sabrina.

[Ashley Flowers]

So Sabrina Zunich pled guilty and as we'd said before, she agreed to cooperate as part of her plea deal. Knifel's trial began in May 2014 with Sabrina Zunich's testimony at the heart of the prosecution's case against him.

[Autumn]

As far as when it comes to Sabrina, we didn't have any concerns. You know, it was pretty point blank that she's the one who did it. With the Covens trial, it wasn't a classic case of, look, here's all the evidence we have and you can see it right in front of your face. We have to figure out from a prosecution standpoint to get all this information to the jury so they actually can understand and see where we're going with what we're trying to accomplish.

[Scott Weinberger]

The prosecution asserted that Knefel manipulated Sabrina into murdering his wife to collect life insurance and continue their sexual relationship. Prosecutors also emphasized Kevin's calculated Behavior leading up to the murder, including his strangely calm demeanor and lack of grief following Lisa's death and his eagerness to collect on the life insurance policy.

[Autumn]

The day of the homicide, his best friend came over to his house and was speaking with him. He had his best friend log into his account and start looking up life insurance policies the day of the homicide.

[Ashley Flowers]

As for the defense, Knafel's attorneys argued that Sabrina Zunich acted independently, claiming she attacked Lisa in a moment of emotional instability after learning she would be removed from the home. And denied that Kevin Knaefel had any involvement in planning or encouraging the murder.

[Scott Weinberger]

But the testimony of multiple witnesses who described Kevin's inappropriate closeness with Sybrina, including his visible displays of affection and sexually suggestive jokes, proved to be pretty damning.

[Ashley Flowers]

And ultimately so was Sabrina Zunich's testimony and chilling account of their conspiracy to commit the crime.

[Autumn]

Sabrina went up there and I believe this till the day I die. Sabrina was telling the truth because she had the exact same story that she told us back in May when we proffered her for this crime.

[Scott Weinberger]

After deliberating for nine and a half hours, the jury found Kneffel guilty on all 11 charges. Six counts of sexual battery, three counts of complicity to commit aggravated murder and two counts of conspiracy to commit aggravated murder. He was sentenced to to life in prison with the possibility of parole in 2043, when he will be 73 years old.

[Ashley Flowers]

After pleading guilty to the aggravated murder, Sabrina Zunich was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole in 30 years.

[Scott Weinberger]

At the heart of this story is a painful irony. Sabrina was already a victim of sexual abuse before she came to to the Knifels home. But the very place that was supposed to be refuge from danger became a place of nightmares.

[Autumn]

It's ironic that Lisa was somebody that worked against sexual abused children. And the foster child that she brought into her house, her husband was actually sexually abusing the foster child.

[Ashley Flowers]

There are just so many victims in this story. Lisa, who had dedicated her life to helping vulnerable and at risk children. And Lisa's 3 and 13 year old daughters who now lost not just their mother but in the act of committing the murder, their father on that same day.

[Scott Weinberger]

And then there are the many people in Sybrina's life, from social workers to teachers who had worked so hard to help the troubled teenager secure a stable future. A future that for now she's spending behind bars. As I look at the facts of Lisa's case, one thing becomes absolutely clear. This wasn't a crime of impulse or emotion. It was a calculated act rooted in greed and manipulation. Lisa opened her heart and her home to a vulnerable teenager, only to have that compassion exploited in the most horrific way. What makes this case even more disturbing is how Kevin Kneffel, someone who was supposed to be a protector of, weaponized the foster care system for his own selfish gain. He groomed a child in crisis, used her as a pawn, and orchestrated a murder not out of rage or revenge, but out of money. It wasn't about love. It wasn't about anger. It was about control. And Lisa paid the ultimate price for someone else's twisted ambition.

[Ashley Flowers]

I'm often asked why people commit crimes, why some people are capable of such brutality and cruelty. There is no easy answer. Often no answer at all. But I've definitely seen my fair share of murders committed by people who had horrible childhoods themselves. And I often think that they were almost set up in a way to be so uncaring and not value human life because no one valued them. It's not an excuse, not at all. But it's something, something that I've thought about over the years and think it's something that if we maybe tackled it as a society more effectively, would not only help the children, but potentially stop them committing future crime. But it's important that we end on Lisa, honoring her memory and thinking of her other children who now have to walk through life without her. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.

[Scott Weinberger]

Anatomy of Murder is an audio Chuck.

[Ashley Flowers]

Original, produced and created by Weinberger Media and Frasetti Media.

[Scott Weinberger]

Ashley Flowers is executive producer.

[Ashley Flowers]

This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond, researched by Kate Cooper, edited by Ali Sirwa and Phil Jean Grande. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

[Chuck]

In the summer, all of Oregon is our playground thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon Lottery gameplay, like video lottery or Cash Pop, helps support tons of parks projects statewide like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite park, Dog park in Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play for many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery. Together, we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only. Must be 18 or older to play.

[Ron Parmenta]

Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding, and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.