Decades and DNA (Sarah Mobley Hall & Derrick Mobley)

Summary

Anatomy of Murder: Decades and DNA (Sarah Mobley Hall & Derrick Mobley) - Detailed Summary

Introduction

In the gripping episode titled "Decades and DNA (Sarah Mobley Hall & Derrick Mobley)", hosts Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi and Scott Weinberger delve deep into a haunting double homicide case from Charlotte, North Carolina. Released on September 10, 2024, this episode unmasks the layers of persistence, forensic innovation, and the relentless pursuit of justice that finally brought closure nearly four decades after the crime.

---

The Crime

On March 14, 1984, life was brutally shattered in Charlotte when 27-year-old Sarah Mobley Hall and her 10-year-old son, Derrick Mobley, were found murdered in their apartment. The initial discovery, made by friends concerned over Sarah's unreturned calls, unveiled a scene of unimaginable violence.

“Left and went and passed out and woke up the next day and he said it seemed like a dream and he remembered thinking to himself, what in the hell did I do last night? What did I do?” [00:53]

The crime scene bore signs of a violent struggle: broken glass, overturned furniture, and the tragic bodies of Sarah and Derrick. Sarah was found partially nude in her bedroom with evidence suggesting a sexual assault, while Derrick lay lifeless in the hallway, likely a witness to the horrifying events.

---

Initial Investigation

Detectives immediately recognized the brutality of the murders. The lack of forced entry and absence of stolen items indicated that the perpetrator was likely known to the victims or gained entry willingly.

“It appeared that probably not a robbery.” [10:11]

The initial investigation in 1984 relied heavily on traditional forensic methods such as fingerprinting, blood typing, and hair comparisons, as DNA profiling was not yet a standard practice. Despite collecting blood, hair, and semen samples, the investigators struggled to identify the killer.

---

The Case Goes Cold

Over the years, the case languished without leads, becoming a cold case. The original detectives, overwhelmed with new cases and limited by the forensic technology of the time, couldn't advance the investigation. However, the memory of Sarah and Derrick's tragic fate continued to haunt the Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department (CMPD).

“But Sarah and Derek's case continued to haunt the investigators within the Charlotte Mecklenburg PD and it was frequently revisited by detectives.” [17:37]

---

Renewed Efforts with DNA Advances

Fourteen years later, in 1998, Detective Johnny Jennings took up the case, spurred by advancements in DNA technology highlighted by high-profile cases like O.J. Simpson's trial.

“DNA has become a thing. In 1998, we now have DNA.” [18:15]

Despite efforts, much of the original evidence had been degraded or destroyed, limiting the potential for DNA analysis. Nevertheless, a semen sample from the crime scene remained intact, offering a glimmer of hope.

---

Breakthrough with Forensic Genealogy

Fast forward to November 2020, Detective Matt Hefner, a veteran investigator and native of Mecklenburg County, received a call from a cousin of the victims, urging him to reopen the case. Immersing himself in the files, Matt identified the intact semen sample as a candidate for forensic genetic genealogy.

“In July 2021, we met with one of our DNA analysts here at the CMPD ... see if there's enough quantity of DNA to make it a good candidate for forensic genetic genealogy.” [28:29]

Using public DNA databases like GEDmatch, the team identified familial matches that led them to James Pratt, whose son’s DNA matched the semen evidence. This connection was pivotal, revealing that Pratt was directly linked to the crime.

“The DNA profile developed from evidence collected at the crime scene had been entered into these large public databases. And the databases were returning names of possible family members.” [29:50]

---

Arrest and Confession

Securing James Pratt's DNA was just the beginning. With the assistance of the FBI, Pratt was located and approached under the guise of a routine investigation. Contrary to expectations, Pratt cooperated, providing a DNA sample willingly.

“He did. He provided what we call buccal swab. They were able to swab him, his cheek, and the FBI collected that and brought it to our Charlotte office.” [38:52]

Upon confrontation, Pratt was presented with the evidence. Emotionally overwhelmed, he confessed to the murders of Sarah and Derrick, attributing his actions to a drug-fueled rage and memory loss.

“I killed him. I strangled him.” [43:54]

Despite his confession, Pratt did not admit to the sexual assault, a detail that remained a painful omission in the pursuit of full accountability.

“But for all his remorse, his confession stopped short of admitting to the sexual assault.” [49:33]

---

Reflections and Conclusion

Pratt's 30-year sentence marked the culmination of an exhaustive investigation fueled by unwavering dedication and evolving forensic science. The episode underscores the importance of forensic genetic genealogy in solving cold cases, offering hope to families awaiting justice.

“Thank God for DNA. And that's a sentiment that I think we can all agree on.” [53:14]

Hosts Nicolazzi and Weinberger reflect on the profound impact such cases have on investigators and families alike, highlighting the relentless spirit required to pursue justice long after the initial tragedy.

“It doesn't change that Sarah and Derek are gone forever. Sarah was 27, Derek only 10. It took so many decades to solve this case, but law enforcement would not give up.” [54:52]

---

This episode of Anatomy of Murder not only narrates a harrowing tale of loss and perseverance but also celebrates the advancements in forensic science that can eventually heal the wounds of time.

Transcript

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[Matt Hefner]

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[Scott Weinberger]

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[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Ruined it.

[Matt Hefner]

Next time get Dixie Ultra plates three times stronger than the leading store brand 10 inch paper plate. Dixie.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Left and went and passed out and woke up the next day and he said it seemed like a dream and he remembered thinking to himself, what in the hell did I do last night? What did I do?

[Scott Weinberger]

I'm Scott Weinberger, investigative journalist and former Deputy Sheriff.

[Matt Hefner]

I'm Anasiga Nicolasi, former New York City Homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's True Conviction.

[Scott Weinberger]

And this is Anatomy of Murph.

[Matt Hefner]

Last year in Charlotte, North Carolina, there was a homicide investigation that got her attention both for the method in which the case was solved, which involved new methods of DNA forensics as well as the extraordinary circumstances behind its final dramatic conclusion.

[Scott Weinberger]

Extraordinary because it had been 39 years since this double homicide was committed. And to say it had long gone cold was an understatement. This case was frozen solid with no leads, no suspects, and no justice for his victims for nearly four decades.

[Matt Hefner]

But as you will hear, there was a dedicated group of law enforcement officers that just refused to let it go. And one of them was today's guest, Detective Matt Hefner, a veteran investigator and native of Mecklenburg County, North Carolina.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

I've been a police officer for 25 years, and around 2019, I switched over to the homicide cold case unit. That's basically all I've ever done at Charlotte is work murders.

[Scott Weinberger]

As a member of the cold case squad, he inherited a case that has stumped many detectives before him. A case that began all the way back on March 14, 1984, when friends of 27 year old Sarah Mobley hall went to her apartment after failing to reach her by phone.

[Matt Hefner]

According to the friends, as soon as they knocked on the door, they immediately knew that something was wrong.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

They had a foul smell coming from inside and the door was partially open. This was in the Evening Times. They went upstairs and got a neighbor and this male neighbor. And the two ladies came back to the apartment. The male brought a flashlight as they made entry. The male sees a body in the hallway and they exit and call police.

[Scott Weinberger]

When first responders arrived, they immediately saw signs of a violent struggle.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

They saw the broken glass. There was some overturned furniture items in the living room. There was a table turned over, the end table that the couch was turned over. The television had been knocked off the stand. It was on the floor. Tecno saw what appeared to be teeth on the living room carpet.

[Matt Hefner]

And in the midst of that chaos, were the targets of that violence, the body of both Sarah Mobley hall and her 10 year old son, Derek.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Sarah hall was found in her bedroom partially nude, and Derek Mobley was found in the hallway.

[Scott Weinberger]

The injuries to both mother and son, which included blunt force trauma and ligature strangulation, made it plainly clear that their deaths were deliberate and excessively violent.

[Matt Hefner]

We do want to give you the warning that the following description is unavoidably graphic in some ways and definitely disturbing.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

I would call it heinous. This appeared to be some sort of altercation that lasted and it was extremely physical. Sarah was found in the master bedroom. There was a lamp laying by Sarah's head and the cord was used as a ligature there as well. Later the medical examiner would say it was probable that there was manual strangulation used on Sarah as well as ligature strangulation.

[Matt Hefner]

Detectives on the scene also believed that Sarah had likely been sexually assaulted.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So in addition to the obvious signs of a ligature, this lamp cord appeared to be wrapped around Sarah's neck. Her nightgown was pushed up, exposing her breast. The robe was over her face. Once detectives moved that robe, Vera had severe damage to her face. She had been assaulted severely. She was missing teeth. Her face was very swollen. It was very obvious she had suffered a horrible beating about the head, all over her head.

[Scott Weinberger]

And the injuries to 10 year old Derek were just as shocking.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Derek was lying face down on the carpet. He had obvious ligatures around his neck. There was what appeared to be a towel shoved into his mouth as a gag potentially. There was a scarf tied around his head and face. And then there was an electrical cord that appeared to be off of like a lamp or an appliance of some sort yanked off of that and that was used around his neck as well. Derek was wearing his pajamas. He had some like thermal underwear pajamas on and was lying just outside of his room and also outside of his mother's room.

[Matt Hefner]

You know, Scott, beyond the obvious, just horror for law enforcement walking into this, you know, what were some of the first ideas that you had just even hearing about this, what this may have.

[Scott Weinberger]

Been about in your interview with Matt? Let me just start with that. I think he said it best. It looked like a violent scene where the perpetrator showed incredible anger and rage. You'd have to assume there is one strong factor in the theory that the victim and her killer knew each other. And there's also, of course, anestiga, as you mentioned, some type of evidence of a sexual assault. You know, we often talk about the fact that a victim's face can be covered. Is that something that involves shame that they don't want themselves to see what they have done? So my first instincts in within this case obviously is violence and rage. But I also want to think more about what other physical evidence could be there.

[Matt Hefner]

And you know, here you have two victims, both mother, adult obviously, and her son. And as you notice, Scott, that evidence of sexual assault, like automatically, it's like, well, if she is the target, whether known or unknown to the perpetrator, you just have to believe that based on the child's dress, he's wearing pajamas, that he walked in on something that the attacker didn't expect or want him to see.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Sarah hall was 27 years old. She was divorced, she was a single mother to Derek. She was a teacher's aide. She worked at St. Mark's center, which is a school for handicapped children.

[Matt Hefner]

And as you can imagine, the sheer brutality of this double homicide left a deep impact on both the investigators involved, as well as the community and friends and colleagues that knew Sarah and her son.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Derek was Sara's only son. He was 10 years old, was an elementary school student at a nearby elementary school.

[Scott Weinberger]

Sarah was a mom, a teacher, and a beloved caregiver. And at 10 years old, Derek was an innocent child. And I know, we all know that. As anyone in law enforcement will tell you, all victims deserve the full attention and efforts of law enforcement. But there is something different when it comes to a child victim of murder. Whether that manifests itself as anger or sorrow, it tends to create a certain drive or motivation among cops to achieve justice, no matter how long that may take.

[Matt Hefner]

And that journey would begin right there at the crime scene, searching for any clues that might help them tell the story of this just most brutal of attacks and point investigators towards the attacker or perpetrator.

[Scott Weinberger]

And just a few moments ago, I talked about physical evidence at the scene, what may be possible to learn from it. As it turns out, there wasn't much to go on, at least by 1980 standards.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Being in 1984, things were much different. We weren't thinking of DNA. We were dusting for prints. Prints led the way as far as evidence would go.

[Matt Hefner]

In addition to the fingerprints, police recovered blood, hair, and a semen sample. Whether any of this could help ID the killer, they still didn't know. But there were other clues at the scene, too.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

The only entry point to this apartment was the front door. There was no sign of forced entry. It appeared whoever was in either came in through an unlocked door or was let in by Sarah or Derek.

[Scott Weinberger]

Which could be that clue that the killer was known to the victims. Or just that Sarah didn't lock her door. The one thing investigators were pretty sure of, that this was probably not a robbery.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

No items missing that anyone could note. No sign that the apartment was ransacked. No sign that anyone took anything from the apartment. No sign of robbery.

[Matt Hefner]

So if robbery isn't the motive, it's either going to be someone that is there for the sole purpose of that sexual assault that then went even further, or that the motive is more personal and that Sarah may have known the individual who attacked her.

[Scott Weinberger]

And so, to narrow the pool of suspects down, investigators would want to do two things. Create a timeline of the murder and identify any potential witnesses to the crime.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Then detectives started Working around and doing a canvas of the apartment buildings. After some extensive work, they did great work. They were able to come up with kind of a timeframe. For when this murder would have occurred.

[Matt Hefner]

And that came courtesy of a neighbor. That lived in the apartment Directly behind Sarah and derrick's.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Those residents came forward a day or two after. And said that they had heard this struggle. It appeared to be some heated domestic violence type situation. Some arguing, some yelling. They heard things being knocked over. Definitely a fight going on. And this was about 11:30 at night, 11:45 at night on the previous Friday. Went on for a while, 10 to 15 minutes. And then it got quiet. There was a pause, and then they heard music come on. So whoever was in the apartment Turned on a stereo very loud for about 30 minutes. After that, 30 minutes or so, the stereo got quiet, and they heard nothing else.

[Scott Weinberger]

Tragically, the neighbor did not call police. Apparently, in this large apartment complex, Loud noise and music on a Saturday night Was pretty commonplace.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

It was something they were kind of accustomed to hearing. It wasn't until they learned of the murders. When it became something that was important, but it gives us a good timeframe of when this likely occurred. At Friday evening Into the early of Saturday morning hours.

[Matt Hefner]

So police did have a window of when they believed that Sarah and Derek were killed. And a pretty good notion that she at least recognized. Whoever came into her apartment that night.

[Scott Weinberger]

Which means now it was time to look through victimology, look into her personal life. At any ex boyfriends she might have had a problematic history with. Or anyone who was even capable of this type of violence.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

They started looking into Sarah, who Sarah was, and try to put together her last weeks of life. To see who she might have been with or been around.

[Matt Hefner]

And just to state the obvious, that, considering the evidence of sexual assault, they were likely looking for a man, Possibly someone that Sarah knew Or had had a prior relationship with.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

They also started looking at her relationships. She didn't have a lot of close female friends. She only had a few. But then they started learning about relationships she had with men. She had met a man that worked as another teacher's aide and drove the school bus. She had a relationship with a guy who had formerly been a charlotte police officer.

[Scott Weinberger]

Detectives tracked down these men and others. And started collecting alibis as well as blood and hair samples. To compare to what they had found at the crime scene.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

They were collecting hairs from the scene, and they were looking at hairs from these men. They were blood typing. So they had blood from the scene, and they were blood typing. And Looking at some of the markers in blood.

[Matt Hefner]

But it's important to note here that in 1984, there was one crucial modern forensic tool still unavailable to police. DNA profiling, blood type testing, hair comparisons, and fingerprinting were still the tools of the trade.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

And then, as they did often back then, and we do much less now, they polygraphed everybody. These detectives brought these friends in and these male acquaintances in. They polygraphed everybody to see if they can figure out who was telling the truth and who was not telling the truth.

[Scott Weinberger]

And of these suspects, one in particular stood out. A suspect that for our purposes, we will call Mike.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

And they zeroed in on Mike, and really he didn't fit a particularly different profile from the rest of the men. He had a little bit longer relationship with Sarah. One of Sarah's friends had mentioned something to the effect that she wanted Mike to leave her alone and that she had told Mike this and that she knew Mike was married and she was going to go to Mike's wife if he didn't lay off of her, if he didn't leave her alone.

[Matt Hefner]

So he was a romantic partner of Sarah's and a married one at that, with a history of potentially obsessive behavior.

[Scott Weinberger]

And not only that, there was some blood evidence that pointed to him as a potential suspect as well.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

They were able to take some of those items from the scene and compare it to the blood information of about these different males. And one of the only ones that fit was Mike. It didn't say it is Mike, it just says that Mike fits in this large pool of people. I believe something I read on one of the old reports said that it was 30% of the population had these markers. But of all the people talked to in the case, Mike was the only one that had this same information.

[Matt Hefner]

So it was not exact. But if you tell me that 30% of a population has a specific characteristic and one of Sarah's exes shares that same characteristics, I would certainly say, and I think most would agree, that that warrants a follow up visit.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

He denied any involvement. He didn't deny his relationship, but he denied ever harming them. He had no motivation to harm them, and in fact had stated, and it was kind of proven that they had not been in a relationship in the maybe even weeks leading up to her murder. So he was the best they had, but he was not enough to keep focusing on him.

[Scott Weinberger]

So at this point, Charlotte police knew they were going to have to cast a net a little bit wider. Maybe the perp wasn't actually someone she knew even though there were no signs of forced entry. As we said before, according to Matt, who grew up in this area, it would not have been crazy in the 1980s for people to leave their doors unlocked. And we see that in a lot.

[Matt Hefner]

Of our cases, or even to just answer the door for a stranger knocking. So while detectives are eliminating men known to Sarah, they're also checking other cases from the area with a similar MO or modus operandi.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

I know they looked at old cases from around that time. They looked at similar burglaries, they looked at similar rape cases to see if there was break in rapes or burglary cases. And there's notes from the detectives that none of those appeared to be related.

[Scott Weinberger]

Eventually, their leads dry up and Sarah and Derek's case begins to go cold. As Matt explains, the detective leading the investigation faced the same challenges so many do. A seemingly never ending caseload.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

When you're working a case and that case is not solved, you don't get to stop all your other work to work on this one case. So you can imagine my assumption is the lead detective and those that were working this case got more cases and they had to go to those cases and focus on those cases. There were more murders happening, more people to arrest, more trials to participate in. There were things that were pulling them away from this case. And with nothing else to go on and no technology to push it forward, the case goes cold.

[Matt Hefner]

The double homicide of a mother and her son went unsolved for months and then years. But Sarah and Derek's case continued to haunt the investigators within the Charlotte Mecklenburg pd and it was frequently revisited by detectives.

[Scott Weinberger]

And then in 1998, 14 years after the crime, a new detective decided to take a crack at it, hoping to utilize new advances in DNA technology, which was a new forensic science that courtesy of the high profile murder trial of O.J. simpson, which was taking the policing world by storm.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So 1998, Detective Johnny Jennings started working the case.

[Matt Hefner]

Johnny Jennings, by the way, is not just one of Matt's predecessors in the Detective Detective Bureau. He is now currently the county's chief of police.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

DNA has become a thing. In 1998, we now have DNA. He starts looking at the case to see if we can reevaluate some of that evidence, to see if DNA will.

[Scott Weinberger]

Take us anywhere as long as it was preserved. There is a good chance that the blood, hair and semen samples collected from the original crime scene might still be able to provide a DNA profile of the suspect. But of course, things are never that easy.

[Matt Hefner]

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[Matt Hefner]

14 years after the brutal double murder of Sarah hall and her son Derek, a detective in Charlotte, North Carolina, is hoping to use new DNA technology to identify some of the biological evidence at the crime scene. There's only one problem.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

The first thing he learns is a lot of the evidence has been destroyed. The original rape kit that was done on Sara is destroyed.

[Scott Weinberger]

This is painful but unfortunately, it is commonplace. As you know, Anestego, for the last two years, I had been working a cold case in South Florida which had a good amount of evidence, albeit collected 40 years ago, which could have been instrumental in solving the murder. And each time we were testing another piece of evidence, complete disappointment. And as we learned, the DNA had been degraded. Also factoring in the DNA may not have been stored properly or even been collected properly. But in the end, we did solve the murder utilizing your favorite type of evidence, Anisega, which is circumstantial evidence. But investigators all over the country run into these types of brick walls.

[Matt Hefner]

But you know, when we talk about evidence being destroyed, which is what happened here, I'd love to tell you I've never seen it before, but we have, especially with the passage of time, you know, there's things such as, you know, in New York City, there's these large facilities that hold evidence. We had floods that literally wiped out just barrels and barrels of evidence. Sometimes things actually get lost. So it is rarely nefarious. You know, sometimes it is sloppiness. Obviously, like everything else, we're all human, but especially the passes of time, you start to see this stuff happen. However, in this case, and very luckily not all the evidence had been destroyed critically, that semen sample that was collected from the pillow next to Sarah's body was still in evidence.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

March of 98, he meets with Sarah's family. Sarah and Derek's family tells them he's working the case. He re interviews some of the people, the ones that are still around, some of those same males. The witnesses that went to the apartment and found Sarah and Derek, they're re interviewed.

[Scott Weinberger]

Jenning also attempts to track down some of the men police had initially identified as past acquaintances of Sarah's.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

He's just grinding. He's doing what he does as a detective. He's grinding in the case, trying to see what he can stir up. And he comes upon Mike and he sees that Mike looked good in 1984. And so he kind of goes back to refocusing on Mike to see if he can make something happen there.

[Matt Hefner]

It's been 15 years since the murders, but now Jennings potentially has DNA of the killer to try to match against any potential suspect.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Mike is cooperative. He's totally cooperative. He comes in when he's asked to, he's interviewed when he's asked to. He's previously taken a polygraph and he's passed that polygraph. This was in the 80s. And so even though the pressure is being put on Him. He's cooperating.

[Scott Weinberger]

That cooperation includes providing a DNA sample. But here's the thing. Even in the late 1990s, creating a DNA profile to compare to evidence was not a matter of weeks, but months. Or in this case, years.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Fast forward to January 2001. We get DNA. We have DNA found on the pillowcase. The lab identifies it, says we have a full, good profile. It's male DNA. It is semen. It's not Mike. And everything we can see, it doesn't match anyone you have in the case.

[Matt Hefner]

The prospect of using DNA had lifted hopes that Sarah and Derek's murders would finally be solved. But it only resulted in yet another dead end.

[Scott Weinberger]

But there was a silver lining. CODIS. In 2001, it was still in its infancy, but the national DNA database for known offenders was growing by the year.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

The DNA profile is loaded into the FBI's CODIS database, and it just sits with no matches, no hits, for years. Nothing happens.

[Matt Hefner]

Year by painful year passed by. And for Sarah and Derek's family, that reality must have set in that their murders might never be solved. Even for the survivors of victims of violent crime, there does come a time, at least for some, that they decide they just need to move on.

[Scott Weinberger]

Only in this case, no one was giving up hope. Not the cops or Sarah's family.

[Matt Hefner]

And In November of 2020, a phone call came into the desk of Detective Matt Hefner, who had recently joined the Charlotte Cold Case Squad.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

I had several cases I was juggling at the time. I got a phone call on my desk phone from a cousin of these victims. And he told me who he was and told me about the case and asked me to look into it. But he told me about his cousin, Sarah hall, and her son, Derek Mobley, that they had been killed in 1984, and kind of gave me some information to find the case.

[Scott Weinberger]

Matt pulled the file and immersed himself into the facts. The original incident reports, the crime scene evidence, the witness interviews, the detective notes, everything he could get his hands on.

[Matt Hefner]

And there was one piece of evidence that immediately stood out. The still unidentified sample of DNA.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So when I read through it, I saw there was DNA in the case. The DNA had been loaded into the FBI's CODIS database. We had a good DNA profile from a suspect, and it had been loaded into CODIS many years prior, and there had never been a match or a hit in codis. Even though we had no hits in codis, we were hoping we could find a new way to move forward with it.

[Scott Weinberger]

Matt didn't have the answer but he knew that with the advances in DNA technology, there was always the potential that this case could still be solved.

[Matt Hefner]

And all it took was just one look at the crime scene photos for him to know, more importantly, that it had to be solved.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

I'll say again, this was a particularly heinous scene. The physical injury you could see on Sarah's face based on these crime scene photos was so severe that I think if you had this case looked at from a profile standpoint, who might have done it. There's a lot of anger. What looks like anger taken out on Sarah vs Derek appears to have just been there as a witness and therefore harmed because of it.

[Scott Weinberger]

Matt was convinced that the killer was someone known to Sarah, maybe even someone who was close to her. A brutal killer hiding in plain sight for nearly 40 years.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

In July 2021, we met with one of our DNA analysts here at the cmpd. We have our own crime lab in the building. They're great. We meet with an analyst, we talk about the DNA from the pillowcase to see what we can do. We ask the DNA analyst to see if there's enough quantity of DNA to make it a good candidate for forensic genetic genealogy.

[Matt Hefner]

Forensic genetic genealogy. If you're a regular listener, you've obviously heard us discuss this before. But basically it's a relatively new method of identifying and unknown DNA profile by a combination of science and old school detective work.

[Scott Weinberger]

That's right. So you start by entering your unknown profile into one of the publicly available DNA databases like GEDmatch, or Family Tree DNA. And then you see what familial matches turn up.

[Matt Hefner]

For the general public, a person might be looking for long lost relatives. For the police, they're looking for family members of a possible murder suspect.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

You build this family tree around this John Doe, hoping to figure out who his family is. And as you narrow down who his family is, then you start to realize who is he. If we identify his aunt or his grandmother or his sister, we might know.

[Scott Weinberger]

Who he is, especially if that person is from the area. Or even better, someone that you can prove had some relationship or contact with your victim.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Well, by middle of December, early to middle of December, my partner and I had new leads from this new company and we were out chasing these leads.

[Matt Hefner]

The DNA profile developed from evidence collected at the crime scene had been entered into these large public databases. And the databases were returning names of possible family members.

[Scott Weinberger]

And some of these names would be distant relatives of the unknown suspect, as Matt described them, the kind of relative who don't even know Each other and who might be more than a little shocked to find out that someone in the family may be a killer.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Everyone we met was very cooperative when you tell them about the case. And we did tell them they wanted to help.

[Matt Hefner]

And then on January 23, 2023, Matt got a visit from the department's resident DNA expert.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Our DNA analyst Eve Rossi, comes to our desk and says, I need to see you guys right now. And, like, what's going on? And she says, we got a match. In the familial testing at the North Carolina state crime lab, it turns out.

[Scott Weinberger]

That north carolina had seen the success of forensic genealogy and had begun developing their own DNA database for north Carolina citizens. And it was in this database that they finally got a promising hit.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So she gives us a guy, and she tells us, your suspect and this guy are related, to be specific, if you can figure out who this guy's father is, this suspect is somewhere in this father's line. And we start doing what we do best, which is just digging in the records. So we start looking up this guy, we find his birth records. We identify his mother through the birth records. But on the bourshativity, there's no father listed.

[Matt Hefner]

But this person's mother was still alive and living right there in north Carolina. So they decided to visit her in person and ask her the name of her son's father.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

She was very polite, very cooperative, and she says, his father, without a doubt, is James Pratt.

[Scott Weinberger]

The name James Pratt had appeared nowhere in the case file. And after a little digging, it doesn't seem like he matches the profile of a violent killer.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

James Pratt's kind of a ghost to us. James pratt had been a pretty good guy through most of his life, as most people go. He had gotten in a little trouble as older teenage years or early twenties. A little bit of trouble, but nothing major, Nothing violent.

[Matt Hefner]

But Pratt would have been just 22 years old at the time of the murders. And a lot can change in that amount of time.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

I said, tell me about James pratt. That this lady we're interviewing says, well, he's 61 years old, and he's still in contact with my son. And back when I knew him and met him, he grew up in the hidden valley community. Hidden valley is where our murder happened. So that was the first aha moment. We might be on the right path.

[Scott Weinberger]

But Matt had no idea just how close he really was.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

We meet this guy. This is James pratt's son, Standing in a parking lot. And we didn't lie to him. I just said, we're investigating a murder that happened over 30 years ago. Two people were killed and what we know now is that someone in your male line, someone in your father's line, committed this murder. We know the suspect is in that male line and we just trying to figure out who it is. Would you mind giving us a sample? Well, he agrees. So as we're filling out the paperwork, this guy calls James Pratt. He calls his father and he's like, yo Pops, you won't believe this. I'm standing here with the police. Somebody in our family killed two people 30 years ago. And we got to figure out who this is, Pop. We got to figure out who in our family is murdered.

[Matt Hefner]

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[Scott Weinberger]

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[Matt Hefner]

Detectives believe that they were talking to a close relative of the unknown suspect in the murder of Sarah hall and her son Derek. According to genetic testing, the killer was somewhere in the male line of the man's father, James Pratt.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

He calls his father and he's like, yo, pops, we gotta figure out who in our family is a murderer. I'm gonna give my DNA right now. So we swabbed him, went back to our office, and continued doing the work that we do and trying to build out again who James Pratt's family is. Who's James Pratt's brother, who's James Pratt's father, Who's else could fit in there and be this potential suspect?

[Scott Weinberger]

And that's where old school police work comes in. While CODIS might spit out a name, forensic genealogy still requires the research. The door knocking and the interviews of potential suspects.

[Matt Hefner]

Only this time, they actually got an unexpected break.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

So that's January 20th, 3rd, two days from then, January 25th. Our DNA analyst, Eve Rossi, comes to see us. He's like, I need to show you something. So she showed us the more detailed data from the state crime lab on this familial match. And she explains to us what they are confident of now, based on how close the information is, how close the DNA is, is that the guy in the DNA profile and the suspect are absolutely father and son. Based on the numbers, based on the DNA markers, it has to be a father and son. But she said, if you know who this guy's dad is, that dad is your suspect. There's no doubt about it. We just need to focus on getting a DNA sample from him. From James Pratt.

[Scott Weinberger]

Easier said than done. After all, if Pratt was indeed Sarah's killer, his own son had already tipped him off that police were still investigating the 40 year old murder. So getting a voluntary DNA sample from Pratt was unlikely.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

We wanted to get his DNA surreptitiously. We wanted to get his DNA without him knowing it. We have some people in our agency that had done this type of work before, had done the surveillance, had watched people and been able to collect their DNA through, say, a drink cup they discard and they get the straw or a drink bottle they discard and were able to get the bottle. Our team of guys who did this was tied up on other work. So our chain of command reached out to the FBI for assistance.

[Matt Hefner]

So with the help of the FBI, they tracked Pratt down to a hotel just across the border from Charlotte in South Carolina. And when they got there, those FBI agents decided to enlist the help of the hotel manager.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

The manager learns the room number from the FBI. And the manager basically says, I'm going to paraphrase. But the manager essentially says, oh, that's James's room. We know James. James works here. Hey, James, come here. Somebody wants to see you. So now the FBI agents are talking face to face with James Pratt.

[Scott Weinberger]

Not exactly the way homicide detectives back in Charlotte, I'm sure, would have wanted this to go down. But nonetheless, the FBI agents tell Pratt that they're investigating a double murder and eliminating potential suspects by collecting DNA samples.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

And James Pratt said he'd done nothing wrong and he would give his DNA willingly. So he did. He provided what we call buccal swab. They were able to swab him, his cheek, and the FBI collected that and brought it to our Charlotte office. That was entered into our property and went eventually up to our crime lab.

[Matt Hefner]

And this time, detectives would not have to wait years for the results. The department's DNA analyst worked over the weekend, and bright and early Monday morning, she called Matt with the results.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

She tells us she's got the DNA finished, and it is a match. Our profile from the pillow that Sarah was on that semen profile from that pillow is a match to James Pratt.

[Scott Weinberger]

39 years after the crime. This was definitive proof that Pratt had sexual contact with Sarah the night she was sexually assaulted and murdered.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Decision was made just to get a warrant and have him arrested. One of the issues was we knew he'd been sitting brewing about this all weekend. We assumed he had figured out by now what this was about. You know, between the call from the son early in the week telling him we were investigating a murder, him giving his DNA on Friday, and now the weekend's been sitting around, and if we go knock on his door again and try to talk to him, we thought, one, he could have armed himself. He could have prepared to go out in a blaze of glory. He could have been on the run. So we put an undercover team on him and actually, without any issue, located him and arrested him based on a murder warrant.

[Matt Hefner]

According to Matt, he believed the case rested on this interview with Pratt. They had waited nearly 40 years for the truth. He was not going to rush it.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Now, when we came into the room, typical interview room, he was handcuffed. I've been in some training before with this really good Texas Ranger, and he talked about using Dr. Pepper as a way to break the ice. So I'd actually stopped at a local store, and I bought a bottle of Dr. Pepper for me and one for James and said, I'm going to see if this works. I took his handcuffs off, and I set that bottle of Dr. Pepper Down. And the first thing he did was ignore the water that had been in front of him. And he grabbed that bottle of Dr. Pepper, opened it up, and then he just chugged it. He just drank a big swig of his Dr. Pepper, and he relaxed a little bit, and we chatted for a little while. He waived his Fifth Amendment rights. He agreed to speak with us without an attorney.

[Scott Weinberger]

Matt knows the importance of building a rapport with his suspect, and he recalls Pratt being cooperative and forthcoming about his life and his background.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

My father was raised, and my grandparents lived on land that was really within sight of this crime scene and within sight of where James lived. So I was able to use that as my hook, my connection that, hey, you know, we're. We're kind of from the same area. So it got us talking. We talked about where he lived, how he grew up. It turns out he was a preacher's kid. His mother was a pastor. His father was a truck driver.

[Matt Hefner]

According to Pratt, he had lived a quiet life. He was a family man, a hard worker, and did not have any history of violence or criminal behavior.

[Scott Weinberger]

Here's a portion of Matt's recorded interview with James Pratt.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Do you remember any crimes happening when you were living out there that way, in the Hidden Valley, in that area? Did anything ring a bell from that timeframe?

[D]

No, not really. At all? No, no, not really. Nothing like a big major, like that long.

[Matt Hefner]

But he did admit to one very important detail.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Eventually, we get into a section where he admits to knowing Sarah Hall. He says that he had had a relationship with her.

[D]

Me and my partner went up our house. He introduced me to her, and we was kicking around a lot. You and Sarah were kicking it around? Yeah. Okay, tell me about that. Have sex. Okay, that was it. Talk to me about your time spent with Sarah. How many times did you meet up.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

With her, see her, hang out with.

[D]

Her, whatever you did? About three or four times.

[Scott Weinberger]

Not only that, he admitted to even knowing Sarah's son, Derek.

[D]

Would he be there while y'all hanging out, like, being bed? Okay. Sometimes we'll be inside. You said y'all three or four times. Did you know she was murdered? This is. I heard about it, but no, we.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Got into the part of. I said, james, do you know why you're here?

[D]

So why would you think we would.

[Scott Weinberger]

Have you in here?

[D]

How would you connect to her?

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

How do you think we found you?

[D]

Because we had sex. So then how would we keep talking? How would we connect you to her? Cause we had sex together. DNA. Okay, all right. Yeah, that's correct.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Okay, that's correct. He said, you've got my DNA, don't you? You have my DNA. And I said, yeah, I do.

[D]

That's what I'm saying. I'm thinking about that. You must think I killed her. I do. Why you did that? Every bit of the evidence in this case tells you did this.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

You say, why do you think I did this? I said, because all the evidence points to you. All the evidence we have points to you. And he said, well, what did I do? And I said, no, James, that's a story for you to tell. So that case file tells one story. I want you to tell your story.

[Matt Hefner]

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[D]

James, I can't tell the story for you.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Something happened there that night and I.

[D]

Know you don't want to tell me what happened.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

I know you try not to tell.

[D]

Me what happened, but I told you I wouldn't lie. I have no doubt in my mind that you did this.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

I said, james, I'm going to have to call their family. But in addition to calling their family, I'm going to have to call your family. I've already met your son. I'm going to have to speak with your son. And as I started saying this, he started to grab his head. He had a ball cap on. He kind of crushed the ball cap in his hands. And I could tell he was getting emotional. I said, james, if you'll tell me the truth, I will make you a promise. If you'll tell me the truth, I'll never tell your family what you did to these people. I'll never tell them. I'll let you tell them as long as you're honest with them.

[D]

Okay? You can.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

You can find a way one day to explain what happened to these people.

[D]

Okay.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

What happened, James?

[D]

I killed him. I strangled him.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

He just broke into the biggest wailing of a cry of, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[Scott Weinberger]

It was the confession Matt had been hoping for. But it was even more than that.

[Matt Hefner]

Because at this point, detectives had never told Pratt how Sarah and Derek had been killed. The fact that they had been strangled was only information that the killer would have known.

[Scott Weinberger]

According to Matt, James Pratt's remorse did seem genuine.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

He's lived behind a secret for many, many years. And ended those moments, all that came out, it just exploded out of him. And he cried and he wept, and he talked about God, and he talked about forgiveness, and he talked about he had been to church.

[D]

He was like, I went to church last night, and I prayed over it. But I learned that God won't all the time bring you out to fire. He'll be with you in the fire, and he gonna get his glory out of it somehow. Somehow.

[Matt Hefner]

But it's important to keep in mind that Pratt had had 39 years to come clean, but he never had. And no amount of remorse can make up for what he did to a young mother and her son.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Yes, he was remorseful. Yes, I feel he was genuinely sorry about what happened. But at this point, I was disregarding it, because all I could think about was the joy of calling Sarah and Derek's family to tell them we had found out who killed him.

[Scott Weinberger]

Pratt never provided police with a reason he so brutally killed Sarah, pointing instead to his drug use at the time as a possible cause of his sudden rage and the gaping holes in his memory.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

He admitted to being on cocaine heavily. He was using cocaine, and when he was using cocaine, he would just lose his mind. He admitted to strangling them with his hands, but he didn't remember wrapping anything around their necks. When I brought up the things he hit her with, he said that I hit her. And he said, I don't remember hitting her.

[D]

I don't know what happened. I was shooting that stuff. I Don't know what happened. I didn't know the problem had looked like that. I was forgotten. Jesus name. My mom and daddy didn't help it.

[Matt Hefner]

But for all his remorse, his confession stopped short of admitting to the sexual assault. Despite all the evidence indicating that they're encountered was non consensual. From Sarah's horrific injuries to the way her clothing was pushed above her head.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Do I believe they had consensual sex? I do not. I don't believe they had consensual sex at all. What the scene tells me is that she probably said no. She probably didn't want to have sex. He probably made advances to her in some way. And James, you know, did what he did. He attacked her. Because this shows an attack. This shows a severe attack.

[Scott Weinberger]

But one thing Pratt was willing to admit, the reason behind his murder of 10 year old Derek, who by his own confession was a witness to his mother's brutal death.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

He remembers being on top of her and strangling her. And when he's finished, he looks up and he sees Derek standing there looking at him. And he says, I did him too. And we question him about that and he says, I knew that he knew who I was, he'd be able to identify me. And something the effect of I couldn't have, that I had to kill him too. So he admits to killing Derek because Derek could have identified him as the killer of Sarah.

[D]

I just flipped out. Just. And then once that started going on, what happened? And then next thing you know, I just don't talk about it. It's choking, I know, but we, we got James. Okay. It's part of the deal. Okay. I just choked us. And then he came out of the room. I did him.

[Matt Hefner]

A 10 year old child strangled by a man in the midst of a murderous drug fueled rage.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

He left and went and passed out and woke up the next day. And he said it seemed like a dream. And he remembered thinking to himself, what in the hell did I do last night? What did I do?

[D]

How often would you say you think about this? Every day.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Every day.

[D]

Not just since we stirred this up.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Every day since it's happened.

[D]

Every day. I pray.

[Scott Weinberger]

Faced with the DNA evidence and his own confession, Pratt opted to forego a trial and accept a plea deal.

[Matt Hefner]

While many will say that a trial feels like the only way to achieve the full measure of justice, Matt said that in this case, the plea deal was a way for Sarah's surviving family to avoid reliving that pain that a trial could have caused as well as to eliminate the uncertainty of proving a case with 40 year old evidence.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

We were out of the interview room minutes and I was already on the phone with the family. I don't use the word closure. I actually hate the word closure. I think the word closure indicates somebody's going to feel better. I don't think anybody feels better after a murder ever. I think you can hit points where you can take little steps towards getting better. And I think this was a giant step towards getting better, being able to make this call and tell her that through DNA. And I told her then that he had confessed, he'd admitted to it, it was just a great call to make.

[Scott Weinberger]

Matt was able to share the news that Sarah and Derek's killer had been found. That their lives and their cruel deaths had not been forgotten. And that their killer would likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

[Anasiga Nicolasi]

December of 2023, he pled guilty two counts of murder and received a 30 year sentence for each murder.

[Matt Hefner]

In a letter to the judge during Pratt's sentencing, Sarah's cousin wrote, thank God for DNA. And that's a sentiment that I think we can all agree on.

[Scott Weinberger]

Throughout this episode, Detective Matt Hefner detailed just how brutal and incredibly tragic this case was. A 10 year old child and his mom, both taken in the most horrific way imaginable. For an investigator, this is the kind of case that sticks with you, the kind that haunts your dreams. From the moment you step foot into the crime scene, the weight of the tragedy is undeniable. Every detail, no matter how small, becomes magnified. A misplaced toy, a half eaten meal, a smudge on the wall. They're all potential clues, pieces of a puzzle the investigator desperately needs to put together. We often talk about victimology and timelines. It's about piecing together the lives of these victims, understanding their routines, their relationships, their fears. The more you know about them, the better chances of finding the killer. This is the kind of case that demands every fiber of your being. A case that tests your limits of empathy and resolve. And then the phone rings again and you pick yourself up and do it all over again. Yet we can't forget this. For the families forever altered by these crimes, the pain is immeasurable. The loss of a loved one to violence leaves an enduring wound, a constant ache. Unlike detectives who move on to the next case, families are trapped in the aftermath, grappling with the absence and the unanswered questions. True closure, a sense of peace and resolution, often remains an elusive goal in the face of such a profound loss.

[Matt Hefner]

Sarah hall and Derek Hall. Two lives gone because of what? A need for control? A need to cause terror and pain? The decision to take this child's life so their killer didn't get caught for the reprehensible acts he had committed against Derek's mom. All of it inexcusable. Be it then or now, I am glad the defendant took responsibility and admitted to what he did. But it doesn't change that Sarah and Derek are gone forever. Sarah was 27, Derek only 10. It took so many decades to solve this case, but law enforcement would not give up. Did not give up. And I hope that message gives strength and a bit of optimism to the many people out there who are still waiting for similar answers in the many unsolved crimes. Sarah and Derek, you were not forgotten by so many men and women in Charlotte, North Carolina, who never even met you, but showed that they cared for years until they got the answers and accountability you both deserved. Rest in peace. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder.

[Scott Weinberger]

Anatomy of Murder is an audio Chuck.

[Matt Hefner]

Original, produced and created by Weinberger Media and Frasetti Media.

[Scott Weinberger]

Ashley Flowers is executive producer.

[Matt Hefner]

This episode was written and produced by Walker Lamond, researched by Kate Cooper, edited by Ally Sirwa, Megan Hayward and Phil John Grande. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

[D]

Awesome.

[Matt Hefner]

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[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Yes, please.

[Matt Hefner]

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[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Whoa.

[Matt Hefner]

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[Anasiga Nicolasi]

Freak out.

[Matt Hefner]

Aren't you gonna say Cool? I'm saving it for the holidays.

[Scott Weinberger]

Smart.

[Matt Hefner]

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[Scott Weinberger]

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[Matt Hefner]

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[Scott Weinberger]

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