E407 A Seance Arsonist and Ghosts with Gall

Summary

Podcast Summary: "And That's Why We Drink" Episode E407

Title: A Seance, Arsonist, and Ghosts with Gail
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Release Date: November 24, 2024

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode kicks off with Christine and Em engaging in their signature banter, sharing personal anecdotes about their drinking habits and humorous exchanges about past mishaps. This light-hearted introduction sets the tone for the blend of true crime and paranormal stories that follow.

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2. The Cahill Mansion: History and Haunting

[15:09] – Overview of the Cahill Mansion
Christine introduces the Cahill Mansion, also known as the Gregory House, located in Gulfport, Mississippi. Built in 1915 by William Stewart, the mansion served as a residential home for its first two decades.

[24:15] – Transformation During WWII
In 1941, during World War II, the U.S. Air Force repurposed the mansion into a Non-Commissioned Officers (NCO) club. Em explains, "They turned the bedrooms into a brothel," hinting at illicit activities that tarnished the mansion's reputation.

[26:46] – Post-War Ownership and Tragedy
After the war, the Cahill family owned the mansion until a tragic tractor accident claimed the life of their 14-year-old son in 1953, prompting the family to leave the property.

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3. The Seance and Dr. Boo Bar

[67:38] – Introduction to Dr. Boo Bar
Dr. Boo Bar, a parapsychologist and Baptist minister, approaches the Gregory family to conduct a seance in the mansion. During the seance, he channels spirits, including a woman named Flossy, who claims she was trafficked and killed on the property.

[68:48] – Prophecy of the Mansion's Demise
Dr. Boo Bar predicts that a fire will eventually destroy the mansion, freeing the trapped spirits. Shortly after, a mysterious fire engulfs the mansion. Em comments, "It was like you do the number two and a bunch of balloons. Like, well, for what? I don't understand."

[70:08] – Dr. Boo Bar's Conviction
In an unexpected twist, Dr. Boo Bar is later convicted on four federal arson charges related to the mansion's destruction. Christine muses, "I feel like you're ready to believe whoever the hell walks up to you and says, hi, I'm future Mr."

This revelation casts doubt on the mansion's haunting stories, as listeners are left questioning the authenticity of the paranormal claims versus the criminal actions of Dr. Boo Bar.

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4. J.C. Dugard's Abduction and Captivity

[73:44] – Transition to True Crime Story
Christine segues into the true crime segment, recounting the harrowing tale of J.C. Dugard, who was kidnapped at age 11 and held captive for 18 years.

[75:31] – Initial Abduction
J.C. was abducted from her bus stop by Philip Garrido and his wife Nancy. Em details, "The abductors shoved her to the floor and covered her with a blanket and heavy objects to keep her down."

[80:16] – Life in Captivity
During her imprisonment, J.C. endured unimaginable conditions, including forced confinement in a soundproof shed and repeated assaults. Despite the trauma, she bore two children with Philip, further complicating her psychological state.

[85:01] – Escaping the Shackles
Philip allowed J.C. some autonomy over time, such as taking short trips and homeschooling her children. However, the abuse continued, leaving J.C. deeply conflicted and longing for freedom.

[94:23] – Rescue and Legal Outcomes
After years of manipulation and neglect by parole officers, J.C. was finally rescued. Philip was sentenced to 431 years in prison, while Nancy received a 36-year to life sentence. J.C. was awarded a $20 million settlement for the police negligence endured during her captivity.

[101:25] – Aftermath and Healing
Now in her 40s, J.C. Dugard has rebuilt her life, authored best-selling books detailing her ordeal, and founded the "Just Ask Yourself to Care" foundation to support others facing severe crises.

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5. Conclusion and Reflections

Christine and Em reflect on the resilience of individuals like J.C. Dugard and the haunting legacy of places like the Cahill Mansion. They discuss the failures of law enforcement in such cases and the enduring impact of trauma on victims and their families.

Notable Quotes:

• Christine:
  "[07:01] But that's so weird. Every time I talk to either of them, they're like you. It would look good in this yard, a nice grill."

• Em:
  "[05:17] Just dissociated. Just up there floating around."

• Christine:
  "[67:40] One guy shows up, and he's a parapsychologist and also a Baptist Minister. Whoa. Named Dr. Boo Bar."

• Em:
  "[111:22] They did this a lot. I think once she got to be outside, she got to go do what they always did, which was sit on the porch and look at the moon."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "And That's Why We Drink" masterfully intertwines a chilling ghost story with a deeply disturbing true crime narrative. Through their candid and engaging dialogue, Christine and Em offer listeners a compelling exploration of fear, resilience, and the quest for truth in the face of darkness.

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Note: The timestamps provided correspond to the original transcript for reference.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Welcome to what really grinds my gears.

[A]

I'm teed off. I'm so teed off. I'm teed off. I'm so teed off. Welcome to and that's how we drink. This is why we are teed off this week and why we drink. And guess what? M. We're recording at 3pm Eastern. So I'm having a glass of wine.

[B]

Oh, thank God.

[A]

Look at this merch we've got. Look at this.

[B]

She's a view. That's what you look like most of the time.

[A]

Like what? Like I'm doing yoga and can actually sit cross legged like that.

[B]

Just. Just a bag of bones trying to relax.

[A]

Skeleton. Trying her best. Anyway, yeah, so I'm drinking some white wine today because it was in my little mini fridge up here for emergencies.

[B]

Weird. You don't have any red in your house.

[A]

Oh, I. Don't be ridiculous.

[B]

You just don't like stairs. I see.

[A]

I certainly. Who does? First of all. Second of all, it's an emergency wine. I had to use it today.

[B]

I don't think I've ever seen you with white wine except in your bra. Your wine bra.

[A]

That was cold.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I. I will say that was a one time mistake and I. I don't recommend it.

[B]

Well, what is it? A Pinot Grige?

[A]

I don't know. It's whatever the venue gave us that I stowed away in my backpack or my suitcase and brought home with me.

[B]

There's nothing I love more than that smell of a Pinot Grige.

[A]

Really? It is definitely Pinot Grige. I will. I don't know anything about wine as everybody already knows even after seven years of this. But I. I like to take. Sometimes the venues will give us like different things to try and then I will just. If we don't actually this time I put the cork in and put it in my suitcase, which was probably the dumbest thing I've ever done in my whole.

[B]

You've done it before? And the whole thing shattered one time and then red wine was all over everything in your bag. Do you remember that?

[A]

No. Oh, that was in my Louis Vuitton though. No, that was back when I had that giant turtle thing. The turtle I like would throw bottles of half corked wine like the trashiest person in the world and they would just like slosh everywhere. And my mom was like, well you, that nice bag lasted you like a week. Anyway. Yeah, that wine stained bag is somewhere in this house. But no, now I have the proper accoutrement. I bought like little bags that you can put the wine in that if they leak, it'll like absorb all the liquid. But anyway, so they, they gave us this nice wine and like, I don't ever buy wine more than like 4.99. So I thought I'd give it a, give it a whirl today. Yeah. But so. Oh, can I tell you why I drink real quick as I'm telling you what I'm drinking? Okay, so I just went on to my gmail to check my 86000 unread messages and I saw like our neighborhood forum had like a post and I was like, I wonder if anyone's updated on the skeleton. This. But talk about a bag of bones. This guy's being spread all over the neighborhood. It's becoming like a scavenger hunt. People have found different bones, like different pieces of him.

[B]

Have you written in and said like, just so everyone knows, this was my skeleton.

[A]

Like red, I started the thread saying, have you seen my legs? And then all of a sudden it's like, I found a tibia. Like I found, I found this skull. And I'm like, oh my God. So now somebody took the torso. It's just, it's. Somebody said, I found this bone in my yard. I'm like, okay, first of all, maybe call the police before you call me. But it's fine. I'm sure it's just plastic.

[B]

Just strewn about.

[A]

Just strewn about. So I don't know what is going on. I don't know how to stop this train that I've started. It's just everybody's now like chiming in what they found on the side of the road. And this poor skeleton is really going places.

[B]

If this were Toy Story, he'd be screaming, he'd be horrible.

[A]

Oh, don't traumatize the children. He's fine. He's already dead.

[B]

What? Is there any other reason why you drink today?

[A]

Oh, is that not enough? Let me think, let me think. Just that, you know, I talked about my witchiness on our yappy hour, by the way, everybody, and I feel like I'm very excited because I'm going to pick up some mugwort today and finally finish my little mugwort pillow. Not to give you a little spoiler teaser, but on our yappy Hour, we talked about my new foray into witchcraft and.

[B]

And specifically mugwart.

[A]

And specifically mugwort was the entryway drug, the gateway drug, if you will. And so, you know, I'm just kind of, like, vibing today. I got my white wine. I feel funny. I feel weird.

[B]

Oh, why?

[A]

Just. Just dissociated. Just up there floating around. And I really got to get better about that, but it's just hard. So. Emethe. That is why I drink. Why do you drink this week, my friend?

[B]

Ugh. Well, what I. I was drinking because.

[A]

Your tibia also spread all around the.

[B]

Neighborhood, and I ain't fibia in. Okay, that was stupid.

[A]

So cut that, too, please, Jack.

[B]

Sorry, that wasn't very humorous.

[A]

Okay, we're back. We're back. We're. We're back.

[B]

Sometimes it just takes a second. Yeah, let's see. Well, yesterday, I burnt the absolute shit out of my hands because I just straight up grabbed a hot pan from the oven. I forgot we've all done the glove, but it was. Every one of my fingers got attacked in some way. The worst. The worst one was this one.

[A]

Woofadoo. Yeah, that hurts. Oh, blister.

[B]

Yeah, that's the worst one. Everything else is, like, kind of small or not as, like, ready to pop.

[A]

Sucks. I hate that.

[B]

But this is also, like, right next to my fingernail. You know I hate fingernail things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it feels like my whole finger is so swollen that, like, my fingernail's gonna come off. I like it. Really? I can't even think about it. So that happens. That happened. And then what were you making?

[A]

Mac and cheese?

[B]

No, I was making steak. I just threw it in the. I did, like, because we don't have, like, a grill or anything. That's not an. That's not me saying, I want a grill. Mom, don't give us a grill. My mom and Allison's dad are, like, so desperately trying to get us a grill, and I have no interest, and Allison has no interest.

[A]

But that's so weird.

[B]

Every time I talk to either of them, they're like you. It would look good in this yard, a nice grill.

[A]

At least once you get a yard, people just assume, you know, I don't want to grow.

[B]

I literally can barely text people back, I'm not gonna keep a grill.

[A]

I don't know how to use an oven. I wouldn't recommend that you use a grill.

[B]

No, I don't know how to use my hands near an oven.

[A]

Yeah, that's also true. Big danger.

[B]

But no, I'm used to just doing it on, you know, like on the stovetop and then baking it afterwards to like, let it collect its juices. Yum. But I don't want a grill anyway. My mom's going to use this as a reason why I need one. So that happened. What else? Something else happened. Oh, my Internet's acting wonky. And then I had to. I'm trying desperately to update Chrome and it won't let me. And I've done every single thing I can do at this point. I've reset my computer, I've updated my computer, I've, like, uninstalled Google Chrome and like, brought it back, you know, just.

[A]

Like, itching to make you share your screen. But I'm not going to do it until after the show.

[B]

When I see you in a couple days, I'll let you figure it out. Because I, I'm. I'm so at a loss. But now, like, certain websites aren't working because my Chrome isn't updated. And so I'm like, you gotta go.

[A]

In your set system preferences.

[B]

I did everything. I've like, been Googling how to really fix it and it like, it's not, it's not fixing. So I'm just stressed because weirdly, a lot of them.

[A]

What's a website that won't work?

[B]

Like, like merchandise websites. Cause I'm trying to do like a Christmas list for. To send to my parents and like, weirdly, like, random, I guess, places that I don't know, I don't know. But there's been a lot that say.

[A]

Go to Ace Hardware. They're selling grills for like 30% off.

[B]

This time of year.

[A]

I feel like that's a good gift for everyone on your list anyway.

[B]

Yeah, please help me later. I'm. I am inviting you to help.

[A]

It sounds like I might not be able to, but I, you know me, I will try my. My darndest.

[B]

I know. I, I just getting frustrated about it. So that's why I drink, because my own computer seems to not be working. I was nervous Actually that it wasn't going to let us record.

[A]

Well, we did have some issues at the beginning. Maybe that's why.

[B]

And I didn't know if that was the reason. I also, part of me is like, is it a virus? And like, my computer is fine, but I don't know.

[A]

Now you sound like. Now you sound like all, I'm tripping.

[B]

Because I don't know what's going on. So now I'm in, like, fear mode.

[A]

I'm pretty sure it's not a virus preventing you from buying Christmas presents, but maybe that feels like the worst virus. I feel like the Grinch 3. Like, that feels like the modern day Grinch they're trying to make. That's going to suck.

[B]

Anyway, so I drink. I just. I. I drink because I feel inconvenienced in a lot of ways this week.

[A]

Wow. Remember when I said that my skeleton had been stolen and spread throughout the neighborhood? And you said, okay, what else?

[B]

I know, I'm sorry mine doesn't live.

[A]

Up to all your trauma that you're experiencing over there.

[B]

I also drink because there's a man in our yard who is our gardener, but he.

[A]

Okay, first of all, don't start it like that.

[B]

I did pay him to be here, but I also, every time I turn a corner, like, turn a corner. Every time I look out my window, I. He's like, really up close and personal because he's leaf blowing. So also, if you hear a leaf blowing, that's what's going on. Anyway. I don't. I don't know. Everything's. I think I'm just overstimulated about nothing, if that makes sense.

[A]

That's how I mean about a lot of things. Not nothing. But. Yeah, I. It does make sense.

[B]

I feel like things that would usually not stress me out. I'm like, weirdly irritated by.

[A]

I find that sometimes I'm. My threshold is lower for, like, sensory stuff.

[B]

Can I tell you why it's called the threshold?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I don't know about like the.

[A]

Is it like threshing and like farming and then how much it holds?

[B]

Well, I. So I don't know about, like the phrase, like our reaching our threshold, but I like the threshold of a door. Do you know why it's called that?

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

You know how like, at the. Like underneath a door frame is like the threshold?

[A]

Right. Is that like the baseboard or different.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, it's like kind of.

[A]

That goes between the two baseboards in the doorway. Okay.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

So you take a bride for Example over the threshold. Right. Is that.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

Apparently, thresh is another word for straw, which, by the way, is. Do you know what straw is? Because it's not hay. Apparently hay and straw are different things. Apparently, it's the bottom half of wheat. Oh, the chat.

[A]

Words like. I know.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like a farmers for America or listen, Farmers only.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Even said Sunday school. That's where we learned this. That's true. Oh, that is where I learned this.

[B]

No. So when you pull out wheat, the bottom half that you break off of it is straw.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I did not know that.

[A]

Like, separate the. The wheat from the chaff.

[B]

Never in my life.

[A]

Really?

[B]

No.

[A]

Wow. Okay. Yeah. So I guess the chaff is the straw.

[B]

Sure. Which is also the thresh.

[A]

Stop it. Why do they need to use all these words?

[B]

How can we have three words for that? But not like, the feeling when it rains, you know?

[A]

You know what the. So apparently Michael Buble has said a thing or two. Cover your bases. I wouldn't worry about it so much.

[B]

Well, so I guess they used to use thresh on floors to absorb water in areas, like, when it would. If you had, like, kind of like dirt floors, I guess if you truck. If you trucked water in, it was really good at absorbing that. And so they had shawl over the floor, but you didn't want it to get knocked out of the house. And so you would put up a little piece of wood underneath the door to hold the thresh in. So it was.

[A]

Oh, from the outside.

[B]

Yeah. So that's why they call it thresholds, because it holds it in.

[A]

That's cool. I didn't know that.

[B]

Isn't that fun?

[A]

That's a fun fact. And now we both learned something about wheat. Something.

[B]

Look at that.

[A]

Definitely will need as we go forward in this life.

[B]

I think so. I have been told by my grandpa many times that I'm supposed to care about wheat pennies. I don't know what that is.

[A]

Oh, God, the wheat penny. Yeah. Don't get me started.

[B]

All right. Anyway, that's why I drink and I drink. That's all an ld.

[A]

And I'll be. Excellent. Excellent. Dante, it seems like we both have very, very worthy problems this week.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Yeah, I agree.

[B]

Because we're always. It's always a worthy cause. Us being.

[A]

It's a worthy cause. It is. Indeed it is. Your turn, my friend, to tell me a story. So, Em, the last time I saw Eva, I was like, I see what you've done. And she was decked out in quince. And she's like, I can't, I can't believe you can tell. I'm like, I can tell because I've got that same sweater anyway, the cashmere one. The cashmere one of in the fisherman sweater. It's becoming an epidemic.

[B]

I mean, it's especially nice now that it's like cozy and a fall season. And it's, it's the right time to have all your, your snuggly sweaters. And Quince is here to deliver on the perfect fall cozy vibe. We, as we have said before, all three of us have matching cashmere fisherman crew sweaters.

[A]

Normal. Don't worry about it.

[B]

It's like we're Huey, Dewey and Louie. Yeah. And it's in addition to everything else in our house from Quinn's, from sheets to travel accessories to home goods, we just, we love Quince.

[A]

Quince is known for their Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50. And it's not just that. All quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And also, it's not just that. But wait, there's more. Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. So you can feel good about what you're getting. But of course, you're still getting premium fabrics and finishes for that luxury feel in every piece.

[B]

Get cozy. And Quince's high quality wardrobe Essentials go to quince.com drink for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That'Q-U-I-N-C e.com drink to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com drink okay, this is. Oh my gosh. The title went away. What is it called? Oh, oh. It has two names. This is in Gulfport, Mississippi. And this is the story of not only the Cahill mansion, but it is also known as the Gregory House.

[A]

Balloons. M to 2 of the number 2 on their computer and all these balloons that'll never. It's always the worst timing. Whoever did this, like, clearly didn't do any focus group testing because, like, it works the way you want it to.

[B]

My laptop just updated and it still does that. Like you can balloon.

[A]

It's like you do the number two and a bunch of balloons. Like, well, for what? I don't understand. What use does this have?

[B]

I. I've never once found a use for it yet.

[A]

Oh my. I mean, it's just a lot. It's like a nice little ease the tension moment, but it really doesn't add much to the content. So Apple, get it together. Anyway, so sorry. Okay, so the Gregory House or the Cahill Mansion. Yes.

[B]

I think it's more famously known as the Cahill Mansion.

[A]

I've heard of that. I've heard of that.

[B]

Oh, lovely.

[A]

But I feel like maybe that's just like a name that sounds.

[B]

It sounds haunted.

[A]

It sounds like another. It sounds like a very.

[B]

Also in the Mississippi. It sounds like a southern rich house.

[A]

It just seems very. It seems almost like a jeweler. Like K. Diamonds. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, every kiss begins with K. Hill.

[A]

Yeah, every kiss begins with Gregory. Doesn't quite have the same ring.

[B]

I will say. I think it's maybe just called the Cahill Mansion, but one source that I use called it the Gregory House. I don't know if they knew it, that it wasn't called the Cahill Mansion. I don't totally know. So I just put both. But this is also where I give a massive shout out to haunted houses.com, which love them. I use them often for.

[A]

Also they work on the old version of Google Chrome. So it's really good news for all of you who can't update.

[B]

You want to know how that. I can guarantee that because the people who run it are like an old married couple.

[A]

And I love this. They don't have like Java going on all this bullshit.

[B]

No, but it's. I think their names are Tom and Julie. I think Julie writes them and then Tom takes the pictures.

[A]

This is wonderful.

[B]

It's my dream. What a lovely way to bond, you know?

[A]

What a beautiful couple's activity.

[B]

But they have a great website. I use them. Not all the time, but a lot. I'll use them if they have a source. I will say this time around though, they deserve a big shout out because I don't know what happened. I don't know if they went to the house at the right time and they got to like interview someone, but they had information that like no other source had.

[A]

So this is a Deep Throat moment. You know, it's like somebody, somebody, some source out there. I know it's gonna whistleblow on these two for.

[B]

I. I don't know what Julie did to. To get the scoop from Madge, but. But she did it. So I want to give them a shout out because if you.

[A]

Sorry, I just accused you of like, doing illicit things. Tom and Julie, I promise I didn't mean it. It was a joke. And this podcast is really dumb, so don't take it personally.

[B]

I doubt they've ever heard of us.

[A]

But I'm sure they have not. And I hope nobody lets them know.

[B]

Anyway, just big shout out to them because I would say if not half my information, more than half my information came from them this year, so not from Julian. Tom, There was one source that called the Cahill mansion a house that has more issues than Vogue.

[A]

I love that, my friend. Actually, they stole that joke because I feel like that a lot of people love that T shirt, but I still love it. Yeah, it's a joke.

[B]

I feel like Julie would have gotten a real, A real laugh out of it.

[A]

I mean, I feel like Julie was like, I already know that joke. I'm not gonn like just steal a joke. I can make my own jokes. Like, I'll say like, oh, my tibia. I'm not fibying about it. And then it'll like really, you know, it'll really work.

[B]

You know what? No one else laughed at that fibia joke, but I. I would have gotten a chuckle and so would Tom.

[A]

The humorous did fix it. It did fix it. You really did a quick turnaround there.

[B]

Sometimes it's the old switch and bait, bait and switch. Because I'll maybe I say the wrong thing, the unfunny part, so that the funny part is even funnier.

[A]

You do say. Sometimes I will say this is the first time I recall this happening.

[B]

But if just pay attention now you.

[A]

Maybe I got it. Like, look closer.

[B]

Let's crack into things. Nice.

[A]

That was too soon after my skeleton got dismembered, but okay, sure, it's.

[B]

Did it sound like the bones cracking right off and getting strewn across the neighborhood?

[A]

If it did, I should have been able to hear that on my fucking doorbell camera. But apparently it's out of earshot.

[B]

The. You know that it's the same person throwing bones everywhere. Because if it were a different person, it became a game where everyone's throwing things everywhere, then one would have ended up in your yard by now.

[A]

That's probably true because I feel like.

[B]

They'Re actively avoiding your yard, so they must know what house they stole it from, you know?

[A]

And every time I go to the garage, it seems like there are fewer bones. Like at first they left the torso and I was like, okay. And it was just behind the haystack. And I was just too depressed to even pick him up. And then the next day somebody posted, I found a torso of a skeleton. Is this. I remember someone else posting here, like, who's is this? And I was like, oh. And then my neighbor texted me, hey, somebody found the torso of your skeleton. I Said, oh, no, that's not mine. Like, what the do I think I'm doing? I'm like, that's not my torso of a skeleton. Mine's still here. What am I thinking? I left it out. So then I go to the garage. Torso is missing. Obviously, that was the torso of my skeleton. I'm like, who am I to be like, that's someone else's torso. Anyway.

[B]

There's two people having the same problem. Right neighborhood.

[A]

Who do I think I am accusing this of being someone else's problem? Anyway, sorry. So it's fine.

[B]

Well, I'm a. I am apologizing publicly about.

[A]

I thought you were gonna say, I'm appalled. And I was like, I am also appalled.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And thank you for apologizing.

[B]

You're welcome.

[A]

Teenagers everywhere.

[B]

Honestly, I owe an apology to a lot of people from about 15 years ago.

[A]

Karma. I think it's karma.

[B]

I did both like this when my car got egged. I'm like, my first thought. My first thought. Instead of being like the curmudgeony old neighbor, being like, you wily kids. Yeah. I thought, you know what? This is karma.

[A]

I deserve this.

[B]

I. I should have known in another lifetime. It's almost like, come back to me.

[A]

Past came to me and did it to me to punish me, you know?

[B]

You know what's so funny? I think all the time about, like. I think about it in a way that, like, is unsettling. You should be worried that that future me will show up or alternate reality me will show up. And how. What would I say to convince myself immediately that, like, I need to follow them to finish the mission?

[A]

I love this game.

[B]

I think about it. I'm not kidding. At least once a week. Like, and honest, I've. At this point, I think if I just saw myself and I just said, I'm from the future. Come with me. Without question. I think I'd follow because I've thought about it so much.

[A]

I'm super glad that we all know the perfect way to kidnap you now. Find a lookalike.

[B]

You have to look exactly. Exactly like.

[A]

I don't think we have to look exactly like you. It sounds like you're ready to believe whoever the hell walks up to you and says, hi, I'm future Mr.

[B]

I don't know, I think it would. I think the one credentials they have to look exactly like me. If they looked a little off, I would think uncanny valley. And I'd be like, I don't know about this. Yeah, but maybe the excuse would be like, we look different in this. In this world or something happened.

[A]

I got so much plastic surgery after.

[B]

The accident, I look this way like.

[A]

You know, now come stop the accident with me. Yeah, well, yikes. Of course you're going to join.

[B]

That's a good point. Yeah. I'll have to rethink this now. After rethink it. Where were we? This house, okay, this is the Cahill Mansion, Tom.

[A]

And they're like, we. We have not. This is not the shout out we wanted from anybody.

[B]

None of this came from our website. God. Okay, this there. The location of this place was not. Is. Was 10 Kimball Drive in the Bayou View neighborhood of Gulfport, Mississippi. And all locals, I guess, from like the 50s to the 70s. If you grew up around there, you knew about this house. This was like the. It's like everyone in Fredericksburg knowing about like the Slaughter Pen or something.

[A]

Oh, I see. It's just like a local hotspot.

[B]

Yeah. Where all the teens would explore, maybe. Yeah. So we start in 1915. It was built by this guy William. And that's the last time we hear about William.

[A]

So he made a name for himself. He really left a legacy, you know.

[B]

He said, I'm gonna build this house. Never mind, I want out.

[A]

And then it's called the Gregory House. And it's like, well, what the fuck was that all for?

[B]

William, you should have stayed for more than five minutes. William, just because you built it doesn't mean anything. So he built it in 1915. And then several families after the Stewarts moved in. I don't know if they were leasing it from William. From William Stewart. Sorry, his last name. Stuart. Oh, my God. Let's try again. Built by William Stewart, but several families came in after him. I don't know if they were leasing it from him or if they just. If everyone was moving in and out. Basically it was a residential home for the first 20ish years of its life. And then in 1941, during World War II, the Air Force took it over and they took it as a. They turned it into a NCO club, which is a non commissioned offenders. I literally didn't know that. Isn't that crazy?

[A]

Yeah, it is a little crazy also. Did you just say often offenders?

[B]

No, I just slurred my words. I was like, it's.

[A]

That's fun. Non commissioned.

[B]

Non Commissioned officers club. Okay, well, since you know everything and you got your degree.

[A]

I dated a guy in the army. Sorry. Okay. It's not. It is my. I was gonna say it's not my fault. It's fully my fault and I take full responsibility for my crimes. But anyway, that's how I know.

[B]

Do you know what an NCO club is or an officer's club?

[A]

Is it where they just hang out?

[B]

I think so. Apparently they don't make them anymore because something about when there was a dip in alcohol prices, they started going out to like restaurants and didn't need.

[A]

They were like, red Lobster serves us this at a half price. Don't worry about it. We can get all the shrimp we want too.

[B]

Yeah. So basically it was like a. Like a social. I'm assuming like a rec space.

[A]

Yeah, like a VW club or something. Not vw, that's also a VA vfw. It's VFW Now I'm having a.

[B]

Now I'm having a Virginia. Fort Worth. No, I don't.

[A]

Oh my God, no. Vfw Veterans and Foreign Wars. A vfw. Like the. They have like those legions, you know, where you can like have a hall. You have like a party space, like a rentable hall. And I think that's what this was. Card games.

[B]

And it was. Yeah, it seemed, it seemed to be something along those lines. And when the mansion became an officers club, one sergeant there really got into some nefarious activities and brought it into the club where I don't know if everyone was for sure involved, but everyone sounds complicit if they knew about it. Oh, no.

[A]

So they are the offenders, the non commissioned offenders.

[B]

Well, so they turned the upstairs into a gambling hall, which was the bedrooms.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Guess what else? They turned the bedrooms into a brothel. A brothel. But I don't even know if these were proper sex workers. It sounds like these women were being trafficked. And if the women. Oh, and if the women got pregnant, then while in the building they were forced to have abortions so nobody would find out that the men were raping. That's the story that we've got here. So eventually hit his superiors, the guy who was running this thing, his superiors found out. We don't know if he got fired, but, you know, probably not. Let's let the history of America tell you.

[A]

Yeah, let's just. Let's just take a glance at the pattern. Sure. Okay.

[B]

Because. Because there is. There's one source that said after the war that sergeant ended up like going back to the house and like taking valuables he had like stowed away there or something. So that implies he was not in fucking jail. So.

[A]

Right. He was at least on the loose to go get his valuables. Right?

[B]

Yeah. Okay. So anyway, that's the worst part of the story, I guess that it was an officers club that ends up being shut down for that.

[A]

Get out of my space. Get out of my MySpace. Sorry, that was a weird way to say that. Of my territory here. I'm the dark one, I tell you. The up.

[B]

Thank you. I don't like talking about it.

[A]

So people only listen to this part. So you know, you know what?

[B]

For the people who listen for the true crime portion, I'm glad I gave you a little.

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

So after the air Force moved out of the building, the mansion then got owned by the Cahill family. So that's how it became a Cahill house.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

But they were only there for a few years. I think it was like, it was definitely less than 10. It was, I think it was closer to like five years that the Cahills lived here. They had, it was a husband, wife and two kids. But in 1953 when they were living there their 14 year old son had a tractor accident on the property and died. I think the tractor rolled over him.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

And I. Shortly after. I don't know if that's why, but the Cahills then moved away. Maybe it was like too hard to be there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And that's when the building again became known as the Cahill mansion. But in 1957. So only four years later, a new family moved in. The Gregory's, which is our main characters of the night. So it was. I think his name was Dr. Kendall Gregory.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And his wife was named Jenny. And then they had apparently a shitload of kids. I think it was a blended family because it sounds like it was from multiple marriages. So the kids, as soon as they moved in, claimed that spooky things were happening to them. But of course, the parents brushed it off at first, even though they did have their suspicions. I guess Ginny was on top of it. And she was quoted saying, my feeling on moving here was simply one of not being alone. I felt like I was always being watched. Yuck. That means the second you walk into a house and you feel like you're being watched, why would she move in there?

[A]

Can't happen. Can't happen. I mean, I guess maybe you just didn't have a choice or whatever.

[B]

But yeah, in 1957, it can't be a good start.

[A]

You know, it's.

[B]

I. I feel bad for all the women who had to move into a haunted house and they didn't have a say and they just had to roll their eyes through just like, ugh, here we go.

[A]

I can't feel nice. No.

[B]

Soon enough, Ginny was in agreement with these kids who were saying shit was going on because she began hearing screaming at night that was so frequent and so loud that she literally started wearing earplugs to bed.

[A]

It's like, already you're like, hey, girl.

[B]

I love how on day one she's fed up. Like, she's.

[A]

I love that she had to go find earplugs. Cause I imagine the 50s, you. You can't just like fucking go to Walgreens and buy like any assortment of earplugs. Like, you probably have to go fucking pharmacy and be like, just don't ask why, but I need earplugs. Maybe you could say my husband snores, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Or. Or they're screaming in the house.

[A]

There's ghouls I need to hide from.

[B]

It could go either way, you know, that's a. Does add to the theory though, that she Was just a housewife in the 50s who didn't have a say. Because if she's now having to already correct her own sleep schedule.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because of these goats. Like, she's locked in whether or not she wants to be. Other times, the entire family would hear screaming. Except Jenny isn't that terrifying. Which is worse that only you or everyone but you?

[A]

I think in the moment, everyone but me would be better because I'd be like, okay, whatever you guys are. I can, like, tell myself, like, well, I don't hear anything.

[B]

So she'd go borrow my earplugs.

[A]

Right. Exactly. But I think the more I thought about it, I'd be really alarmed. Like, in theory, that's not good. I think in the moment it would be like, oh, yeah, you guys are silly. I don't hear anything. But then. Yeah, I don't know.

[B]

I just saw a video on Tech Talk. Have you seen the videos of, like, mimics showing up in people's houses?

[A]

Oh, oh, oh, oh. I just got goose came. It's so scary. I went down a rabbit hole a few months ago and watched, like, 40 of them, and I was like, why am I doing this?

[B]

I saw one come on last night where only one of them could hear the voice upstairs and the other one couldn't. And they, like, were recording it so that way she could play it back to him and be like, see, this is what I was hearing. Isn't that awful?

[A]

I just have chills. The first one I watched was the. My gateway. My gateway video that I watched was the one where her mom, like, showed up at her door and was, like, banging on the door and was like, you have to let me in.

[B]

But, like, I've seen that one.

[A]

The doorbell didn't, like, show her or something. And then she's like, my mom never comes. Like, she would never talk like this. Her voice is.

[B]

Which, like, that's a bad mimic.

[A]

Yeah. First of all, that's what everyone else was saying. Like, it's not even very good. Yeah. Oh, I've chills. Creepy.

[B]

I do, too. There's nothing that freaks me out more than a mimic.

[A]

It's like that doppelganger thing. I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

[B]

And also, like, that. You can, like, you shouldn't, by the way. If you ever hear a mimic, you're supposed to, like, not speak to it. But how. And also, like, how would you know? The first time they knock on the door, he'd go, yeah, like, what's. You know?

[A]

I Remember, she was, like, hiding in her room, and she's like, this lady is just banging on the door, saying she's my mom and she looks like my mom, but I know she's not.

[B]

Which I don't understand the physics of a mimic because couldn't you. Couldn't the mimic just walk into the other half of the room?

[A]

No. Maybe.

[B]

And talk into your face? Oh. You know, I always forget that, like, there might actually be, like, etiquette. Rules.

[A]

Etiquette. Yeah, etiquette. When they're trying to, like, steal your soul, it feels like, why. Why would there be rules?

[B]

But it's like, you already want to kill me. Like, why are we following rules at this?

[A]

Why are you being polite to me? That doesn't make sense.

[B]

I've never understood why a vampire can't be, like, has to be invited in. I'm like, you're a fucking vampire. Just, like, how? Like, I'm sure there's a reason, and.

[A]

I've just never literally going to drain my blood. Why do I need to give you.

[B]

Consent time of day?

[A]

Yeah, like, why do I need to be polite to you right now?

[B]

It's wild that consent is so important to you as you're about to kill me without my consent.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[B]

Okay. So anyway, she was hearing screaming sometimes, and then other times, everyone else was hearing the screaming. She described this sound as, quote, an indescribable bubbly moan, a horrible, hideous sound, as if someone was an unbearable agony.

[A]

Oh, that's haunting.

[B]

And you must. At some point, you've heard it so much that she's just popping those earplugs and she's like, whatever.

[A]

You know, you say, like, popping her Valium. I was like, yeah, me too, girl.

[B]

I would be. Yeah, but I mean, the first time must have been so. Just, like, distressing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then by the time you're putting earbuds and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, someone's screaming in pain, whatever.

[A]

You're like, not again, girl. Get over it. Yeah.

[B]

Another time, Ginny woke up to a man floating by her bed. And the description was. Was long. But basically what they were saying is that he was. He had his hand under his elbow like this. So his arm is resting in his hand, and then this hand was resting on his chin.

[A]

So he was so, like a Mr. Rogers situation.

[B]

Yes. Like, just kind of holding his head, and he was just staring at her while floating by her bed. This is what she look up to, a guy just doing this.

[A]

That would piss me off. Like, why are you looking.

[B]

So why are you so comfy, right?

[A]

Like, get out of here. That team me, right? That tease me right off is what it does. I'm freaking to'd at this point. And I bet Jenny was too.

[B]

I'm sure she was. She was like, I literally already have earplugs in and now you have to bother my eyes.

[A]

Now I gotta get a blindfold.

[B]

Another, another time, her. Jenny and her husband. I think his name was Kendall. I, I, Some of the sources were confusing Kendall as either the husband or one of the kids, but I'm sure Jenny would say they're all her kids. Ha ha ha. Yuck. So I'm just gonna call him Kendall. But that's, I mean, the husband.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So Kendall and Jenny, they were another time woken up to something, like, literally as hard as I could, punching on their headboard.

[A]

Oh, not their head. Phew. I was like, that's gotta be shitty. Okay. On your headboard is also not good.

[B]

But also their headboard was like an 1800s antique. And now you're hitting it. Are you kidding me? Okay. But it wasn't an antique then in the 1950s. Oh, never 60 years old.

[A]

Yeah, it's very much an antique. I thought you were saying, oh, because it was so old back then that. And I was like, no, they made stuff to last. So this was a literal antique thing.

[B]

A literal antique that someone was just punching and they just woke up to like the punching sound.

[A]

I wonder if the bed is haunted then. That's weird.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting. Well, remember that their bedroom, though, used to be where the gambling hall and the sex work was happening? Oh, the trafficking was.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

So they woke up to something banging on their headboard. And then also the sound of like fingernails tapping themselves on the headboard. Like almost like trying to like wake them up.

[A]

That's like scary. Like, get your attention sort of.

[B]

Yeah. Another time they, well, let's put this. But they weren't the only time, the only people who saw apparitions in the house because their children were seeing them non stop. So the kids would wake up to. Here's a list for you.

[A]

I was gonna say you put your hand on the computer. Like, the kids would wake up too. And here we go.

[B]

Glowing figures getting up in their face and then walking out of the room.

[A]

These guys will have, like, serious attitude problems. Like getting up in your face with your hand, your chin resting on your hand. Like, I'm so bored.

[B]

Yeah. You know, a woman floating on the ceiling. An apparition that stood by Their beds every night.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

A bright light emanating from the closet. Spirits that looked like heat waves walking through the room. Weird. Their dresser drawers opening by themselves, books falling off the desk by themselves. Their names being called by children's voices. And the closet door opening. And a little boy walking out towards their bed through their body, bending down and staring at them while they're in bed.

[A]

Hang on, I'm trying to. So he walks out of the closet.

[B]

He walks out of the closet towards Tor. So imagine like your closet door opens a. A little kid. Although another source said it was a grown ass man, which is even more terrifying.

[A]

Way worse.

[B]

But an apparition, a male apparition walks out of the closet after opening the door, walking towards you while you're lying in bed, then walks through you. Oh, and then once he got to the other side of your bed, he leans over into your face and just stared at you.

[A]

Absolutely not. First of all, it's like, why did you have to go through me to look like. Just stay there.

[B]

Like I was.

[A]

See me from there.

[B]

You could already see. You could already see me.

[A]

Stop. You're just making a scene now, is what you're doing.

[B]

It's the bravado.

[A]

I'm getting angry. Yes, it is the bravado. It's like, what is your deal, dude?

[B]

Yeah, they're just all really up in my space.

[A]

But, like, for some reason, this also feels like the one of the more most, to me, at least, convincing haunting stories. Because I feel like these all feel very believable. Like, yeah, like heat wave apparition. Like, that feels very specific and believable. Like drawers opening, like hearing your name. Like, it all feels very believable. Like, stuff people submit to us for listener stories. It's not like, so over the top. Like some haunting stories are.

[B]

You know, I like that we're so jaded at this point that, like, a person walking through you, leaning over and staring into your face is like just, you know, meat and potatoes.

[A]

Geez, not again.

[B]

So the family also encountered, obviously, footsteps running through the entire house, especially. Especially in your bedroom while you're sleeping. Oh, they also had an upstairs porch, which. Okay, money. But they would hear people walking around on the porch at night, which sounds like someone's gonna break into your fucking.

[A]

I was gonna say that's actually really scary because you're like, oh, someone climbed the patio. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You would also feel a lot of cold spots. Apparently the light fixtures in their house would just fall off the ceiling, which I have to beg is bad. Construction and more bad construction, although it's definitely a ghost, is that their rooms would refuse to be painted.

[A]

What?

[B]

The paint would never last on the original wall. Color would always come through.

[A]

Why? That's so creepy.

[B]

Yeah, I hate that one. It's like, oh, you can't change us or you have to live in our history or something.

[A]

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace and it really is because we've actually had our website on Squarespace since the early days before we had a single sponsor.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, that's terrifying.

[B]

They the family has also seen a little girl, a man in dark clothing, walking through the rooms, a man in a suit reading the Paper and a man in the. In 1930s clothing come out of the bathroom, stare at them, quote, square in the face, and then walk up the stairs. Stairs. And fade away.

[A]

The gall of these ghosts.

[B]

Like, why are you. Like, he's just staring me square in the face after coming out of the bathroom. Because he's busted that he just make a stank up the room statement.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And he's. He's pretending like he's not ashamed.

[B]

Yeah. He just stared. What are you doing here? What are you doing here? Get out of my bathroom.

[A]

Yeah. What the. Who do you think you are?

[B]

In empty rooms, the whole family and friends who would stay over would hear a loud cocktail party going on. Like, singing music, laughing, glasses clinking.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Sometimes you would already be in the room, and all of a sudden, everything else would go silent. And then you would hear, like, that. Like you were in the party.

[A]

That's really cool. I feel like I would. That if I had to pick a haunting that would be the least threatening to me.

[B]

Like, because they invited you to be their friend?

[A]

No, because, like, if they're having a party in the other room, it's like, oh, they're busy. They don't care about me. You know what I mean? It's almost like they didn't invite me. So I'm so happy they can have their little party. And I, like, have a ghostly experience without being involved, you know?

[B]

Yeah. This one, I. I think, freaks me out even more because it's almost like they're laying their reality over mine.

[A]

If it. If it comes into my room, I don't appreciate that. If it's in a different room, it's like, okay, good. Like, you guys have your party. I'll just listen in while I read my book. But if you're inside, like, I didn't ask to be invited. I don't want to be part of this. Yeah.

[B]

I would always get paranoid that, like, if I heard a party, that I'd be like, is. Is this, like, you guys are having fun? 1, 2. Are you. Am I invited? And I would be like, is this actually more scary than I'm thinking? It is. Like, Is this, like, the eerie first few minutes before a tragedy or something? And that's why you're in this, like, blueprint haunting of this moment.

[A]

Oh, God, I hadn't even thought of that. So it's like, oh, maybe this is a marker of something terrible that happened. It's replaying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, and that's so dark. Well, I was thinking, welcome to my brain. I was Just thinking maybe there's some, like. Maybe that it was, like, a memory of some really positive energy, like. Like the most raucous night they ever had, and it got replayed. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, no, I get that.

[A]

Then again, if there are literally trafficked women there, there's nothing positive about that if it was coming from that time.

[B]

So maybe. Maybe it's the ghost of a woman, like, trying to, like, tell you, like.

[A]

What happened, replay that night. Yeah, good point.

[B]

So it could be in. I don't remember the story anymore, but when I was a Segway ghost hunter tour guide in Yorktown, there's one story it might be. It's.

[A]

I know some siblings paused the show and texted their friend, like, did you know Em used to be a Segway guy? I don't think we've talked about that since, like, episode five. People don't know that.

[B]

That was my college job. Yeah. I was a salesman. A. Yeah, I'm just a boat builder.

[A]

Giggling at all the people going, wait, what?

[B]

A ghost hunter. A ghost tour guide. A Segway tour guide.

[A]

Chipotle. Just for the corn.

[B]

Chipotle. That was not in Yorktown, but that was 20 minutes down the road. But I did work at the one next to the Patrick Ken Henry mall, if you have been there. Anyway, there was one ghost there where, like, he got. He was reading the paper and then got shot, and he died. And now people see the ghost of him reading the paper.

[A]

So it's almost like that traumatic incident. Right. Okay.

[B]

So when I hear a party going on, I always feel like it's the beginning of whatever happened next.

[A]

That's a great point. That's a great point. I hadn't thought of it that way. So thank you for adding a new. Just a new. A new dark angle to my life.

[B]

I appreciate that.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Well, so even imagine, like, being a guest in their house, then all of a sudden waking up, and you're. You're in an empty room, but it sounds like there's a party going on around you. That's so jarring.

[A]

That's horrible.

[B]

It's almost like they were, like. They all stood around you with, like, musical instruments, and they went, three.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then, like, start pranking you.

[A]

You know, when I was little and I couldn't sleep at night because I could never sleep, because I think there were a lot of weird things happening. But when I was like. I remember when my mom moved my little brother into my room, and he was like a tiny baby, and I. So I Must have been, like, two and a half, three years old. And I remember them moving him in there, and I was, like, so scared because I was like, I want to protect him. I mean, already at 3, I had so many mental issues. Anyway. I was, like, so paranoid about protecting him that I would try to stay awake as long as I could. And then when just really needed to sleep and I couldn't, I would pretend that Rafi and all his, like, children singers would be standing around my bed singing songs to me so that, like, the bad ghosts couldn't come through.

[B]

That's actually very beautiful that you, like, they were your. Your force field.

[A]

Yeah. I lit.

[B]

Rafi was your shield.

[A]

I think I ever thought about it, like, until this moment, really. But, like, I used to pretend they were just standing around my bed, like, singing like, the Christmas. Like, must be Santa. Must be. And I would be like, it's fine. It's all happy. Because that was my favorite little cd. And so I would pretend, like, because I would see this guy, this dark thing, walk into my room. It's probably just my imagination, but I also.

[B]

I had a thing all the time that I'm still scared to sleep.

[A]

I thought it was Batman. I called it Batman because it looked like this dark, like, shadow figure. And it would come in the room, and I'd always be like, oh, I have to protect Alexander. So I would pretend, like, Raffi and all his little children's choir were, like, surrounding our bed. And that was. That was my little protective shield. Anyway, so now with Leona, I just have, like, such a fondness for Raffi. I'm like, I just love him.

[B]

That's. I. So were they looking at you, singing, like, to distract you, or were they looking away to, like, as a. As a force field?

[A]

It was like, to me, it was almost like I was just, like, watching a little concert, you know?

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And I got to be, like, part of. I think I also like the idea that, like, I got to be part of all the kids who were singing and, like, singing in my head, you know?

[B]

No, no. When I. When I was little and I would get scared and, like, go sleep in my mom's room. I. I don't even. It's so weird, because I would actually be too scared. I would have to pick a struggle because I was either too scared in my room that I would go sleep in my mom's room, or I would be like, I'm scared, but I might as well just stay here anyway, because I'm more scared of my mom's room.

[A]

In your mom's room.

[B]

Do you remember the Looney Tunes characters Rocky and Mugsy? They were like gangsters. Like, one was a little short one and one was like a big, tall, like, kind of buffoon.

[A]

Oh, my God, yes.

[B]

Okay, so the tiny one. The tiny one, he was the one who was like, in charge? Yeah, he was. I swear to God, I always saw him standing in. In the doorway when I was sleeping in my mom's house.

[A]

Yuck.

[B]

But I would always be scared because the guy that's still in my bedroom, who I hear walking non stop every time I hear him, I would be like, do I just want to deal with this tonight or do I want to go, like, see that little tiny gangster in my mom's room?

[A]

Wait, and you thought the one in your mom's room was worse or just.

[B]

Like a. Yeah, because I could see it.

[A]

Oh, that's bad.

[B]

Like the one in my. In my room, I could never see it, but I could hear him and I could feel him get up in my face and I hated it. But if I went to my mom's room, I wouldn't hear or feel anything near me, but I would see. See that thing just standing in the doorway.

[A]

Oh, my God. I feel like I never think or talk about this stuff. And I hear people talk about their, like, childhoods and I'm like, wow, you had so much crazy. But like, I remember when my mom moved out and I would stay in my dad's bed because I would get scared and I'd go to my dad's bed and there was like a. After my mom moved out, it like, changed. Like, the characters changed, which is like, maybe just a weird psychological thing, projection, but still very weird. Like, I remember when my mom and dad were both there. It was like, scary in its own way. Like, I would see whatever, I'd imagine, whatever. But then when my mom moved out and I'd go to my dad's bed, I was like, oh, my God, there's way more, like, weird stuff happening.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

I need to go get another glass of wine. Hold on. I'm having a. Having a slight mental breakdown. Please hold it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Hey, I have a fun fact about M. I'm going to put them on spot immediately. M hates to be inconvenienced. Okay. Whether it's driving to the airport, like to LAX or the Burbank, whether it's just even checking Slack or emails or whatever. M just hates being inconvenienced. It's just. It's Just one of the main personality traits I've come to know and love. And if you're an employer, you can add hiring to this list. But now there's Hope, thanks to ZipRecruiter.

[B]

As somebody who hates being inconvenienced, I'll tell you that ZipRecruiter made our literal job so much easier. I mean, I hated having to do anything, and I, I. Not only that, I literally couldn't do it. We didn't have enough time. We didn't have enough hands, resources. We didn't have enough people, and we needed to find someone immediately. We found Eva immediately, and our lives were made better for good.

[A]

We even asked, like on ZipRecruiter's platform, asked, like, do you believe in ghosts? As one of our hiring questions. And Eva put yes.

[B]

If you're wondering how fast ZipRecruiter smart technology actually shows your job to qualified candidates, I'm not kidding. It really was within 24 hours that we found Eva. And also, ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology works fast to find top talent like Eva, so you don't waste time or Money.

[A]

See why 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And if you go to ziprecruiter.com drink right now, you can try it for free. That's the same price as laughing so hard that your sides hurt or getting a compliment from a random stranger. Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink ZipRecruiter. The smartest way to hire. There. Okay, I feel better now.

[B]

I am.

[A]

Doesn't this look I told you Pinot Grigio. I'm glad that you called it.

[B]

Oh, stunning. I. While you do that, I'm going to eat a little cheesy cheese, which wine.

[A]

And cheese were so classy. What happened?

[B]

And last night, you know what I was snacking on, which I don't really totally recommend, but I was eating. It was dried. Not dried cranberries, dried cherries.

[A]

Dried cherries. I was gonna say Leona just got dried cherries, and she feels very conflicted about them.

[B]

I. They're just a fancier raisin.

[A]

She was like, these are good, but I don't want anymore. And we were like, interesting. It's her first foray into, like, I think I like it. Like, it's like me with fig jam. I'm like, I guess I get it with, like, cheese and crackers, but I don't know, maybe leave it on the tray.

[B]

I Feel like, yeah, I got it because I was craving cherries.

[A]

That's what happened with Leona. And we couldn't.

[B]

They didn't sell them because they're not seasoned. Yes.

[A]

Holy.

[B]

That's me and Leona need to talk about.

[A]

You guys are actually starting to freak me out. I have a bag of dried cherries on the counter that we bought last week or a few days ago, and she was like, I don't know about. She's, like, very. She's like, I just want regular cherries. And we're like, well, sorry. Even in America, we can't get our hands on those bad boys right now.

[B]

I was. Was, like, craving it like no other. Like, I was becoming a problem.

[A]

We're having, like, a joint delusion, you know?

[B]

Yeah, that'll happen.

[A]

She was also having the epic meltdown of I want cherries more than anything in the world. So I don't know what was going on.

[B]

I ended up getting kiwis instead.

[A]

I love a kiwi.

[B]

It was fine. I love a kiwi. But I was. I really wanted a cherry.

[A]

If you want a cherry, nothing will do. Nothing else.

[B]

Especially those, like, super dark ones. Ugh.

[A]

Ugh. The best. I have one of those pitters now for Leona where you just, like, pop them out the season.

[B]

Okay. I thought I needed one of those. I actually realized I kind of like chewing them out because I like to feel like an old, like, redneck, and I just like to spit into my little spittoon can.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I mean, my brother. My brother, mother, and I, you know, during our divorce days, would just sit on the back porch and try to see who could spit the cherry pit the farthest. You know, it's a. It's a nostalgia thing, too. Leona's like that. I just want, like, my perfectly pit removed cherries, please.

[B]

Well, if I were. If I were Leona's mother, I'd be terrified to, like, of a pit. And she's joking.

[A]

Yes, yes. Also, it started because she's a baby and she can't eat that, but I think maybe she's not into the nostalgia like we are.

[B]

One day, her and I are gonna go nuts on some cherries together.

[A]

I don't doubt it for one second.

[B]

Where were we? Oh, this sounds like a cocktail party.

[A]

Are we still recording?

[B]

Okay, apparently we would hear. They would hear cocktail party music, and then they would also hear heavy dragging and crashing.

[A]

Oh, oh, oh. Maybe that's a thing. You meant that, like, something bad happened one night.

[B]

Maybe, But I think. I think they would hear them at different times. They would hear, like, a cocktail party. They'd hear heavy dragging and crashing. And at different times, they would hear a woman screaming, get out. Which I hate that, because she's probably trying to fight someone off.

[A]

And to think, like, it's all in the bedrooms where the kids are all sleeping, like, that's just terrifying.

[B]

The worst, arguably, in terms of, like, ghost hauntings. The kids woke up to circles drawn in blood on their windows.

[A]

What?

[B]

Fun fact. This was days before JFK was assassinated. And you know what?

[A]

That is a fun fact. Thank you.

[B]

Well, I say that because it also was, like, such a weird, jarring statement to see in the sources when they were like, and of course, you can't forget jfk. And I was like, what?

[A]

You can't.

[B]

I was like, what in the qanon is going on?

[A]

Let me forget about JFK for a minute. God damn it.

[B]

Well, so, okay, so they had this experience, and it was days before, days later, which happened to be the day that JFK was assassinated. The kids, again, woke up to blood on their windows, but now it was literal handprints smeared into the windows, and it was dripping off of their curtains.

[A]

That had to be a prank, right? Like, one of the kids got ketchup.

[B]

Well, so Kendall took a sample to the doctor, and it was, in fact, human blood they cannot explain because nobody was injured.

[A]

That's upsetting.

[B]

And the blood was weirdly RH positive, which I guess so was jfk.

[A]

Well, I know RH positive because when you're pregnant, that's, like, a big risk factor.

[B]

Oh, well, apparently. It was just they. They really like to tie in the JFK thing in all of the sources I read. So I'm also just reporting the. Here, everyone leave me alone. I don't totally see the comp. The. The connection, but maybe because JFK was such a big thing historically, that day, it became part of their story. Right?

[A]

I guess it's like, wow, what a momentous occasion in history. And also this really freaky, weird thing.

[B]

Happened that there's blood dripping everywhere that happens to match JFK's blood the day he was shot.

[A]

So not. I love that the doctor's like, sure, I'll test this blood and see if it's RH positive. Like, okay, yeah, I guess, like, pregnant women in this country can't even get a normal health care appointment. But it's fine. Whatever the.

[B]

But if a man brings the sample.

[A]

Then all of a sudden, then it's different. Also, fun fact about jfk, I guess, But Yeah. I don't know how I feel about this. I feel.

[B]

What? What?

[A]

I don't know. I just feel like somebody pranked that. This is the first line where I feel like, okay, this feels like a stretch, but, I mean, they all kind of do, like, eventually.

[B]

I don't. I. All I know is that every source. This was, like, their favorite part to talk about.

[A]

Yeah, I guess so.

[B]

But I. I also don't know where the blood would have come from. No one seemed injured. Certainly not enough to have blood, like, seeping out of curtains.

[A]

I mean, that's like.

[B]

That's a lot of blood.

[A]

The fact that they tested it is very alarming to me. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, they. And, I mean, that was also quoted from. That wasn't just, like, a reporter saying that. It was quoted from them saying it in a newspaper in, like, the 80s, which, like, I don't know if that makes it more or less legitimate that it came them. But, yeah, that's a lot. That's not like, oh, I got a paper cut and. Or, oh, even I really got myself bad, and I grabbed the window, and now the smear is there. I mean, like.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And, like, your parents is crazy.

[A]

If it was, like, a kid, your parents wouldn't notice if you cut your hand open to bleed everywhere, you know? Yeah. Yeah, that's very freaky.

[B]

I don't. I don't know. One night, one of their kids to say, this is obviously us there. They were very aware of the ghosts, obviously, and the kid was like, I'm gonna have a sleepover with my friends downstairs. Maybe they were trying to find the ghosts. I don't know. But they were very perfect.

[A]

Like, your friends come over like, you have a ghost, right? And it's like, oh, yeah, but can we do something else? I got Scrabble. Like, no, let's find the ghost.

[B]

Oh, in. In hindsight, I totally get why the kid who lived there wouldn't want to do that.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

But I would have all. I would have totally been the kid who forced them to let me go. Go scramble.

[A]

Absolutely. We would have been like, we brought the Ouija board. Now what?

[B]

Yeah, we don't actually need you here. We just needed access to your house. Yes.

[A]

Thank you for inviting us. You can go back to bed. We have things to do.

[B]

The kid sounded like he was down, so him and his friends were all down there. And again, they're sitting in. In the living room, and they hear a loud cocktail party going on. By the way, that would have been enough for me to go, okay, thank you for letting me into your home. Now I'm ready to go. I just needed one. One piece of evidence. But they all stayed.

[A]

But again, I think it's the least scary thing for some reason. Like, if you're gonna, like, I don't know, lure someone into a ghostly experience, I feel like hearing people having an enjoyable time and clinking glasses in the other room is like, the least.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Threatening one.

[B]

Especially when you're like a kid, you know, you're just like, yeah, it just sounds like a party.

[A]

It sounds like mom and dad invited friends over.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they. They were hearing a cocktail party go on. And later that night, they ended up seeing a shitload of apparitions. They saw a man in a white robe. They saw another man.

[A]

It was their dad being like, go to bed. How many times do I have to tell you? Keeping your mother up.

[B]

They also saw a man in a striped shirt. And then the rest of the apparitions they saw, apparently, were all outlines, but in. But inside were. Was smoke.

[A]

Weird. And apparently that reminds me of the heat wave ones. Like the kind of squiggly.

[B]

And also in my mind, if it's like a gambling hall and a brothel, then it's like, that's a lot of cigarettes. So much smoke.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So these smoky entities, one of them sat in a chair near them and just stared at the fireplace, which I would love to know if a fire was actually cooking in that fireplace, because it'd be even eerier if it just stared at an empty fireplace.

[A]

I mean, I'm sorry. I imagine the kids were not alone with a big fireplace full of a fire. Maybe they were. I don't know. But yeah, imagine that darkened fireplace where there once was a fire. Fire. And someone's, like, standing there with their. Oh, ew.

[B]

Another one leaned on the wall and just stared at the kids. And then another one walked right past them while they were sitting on the couch and sat on the coffee table that was next to them.

[A]

And I busy fucking joint.

[B]

And also they're like, so all up in your business.

[A]

They are. Have zero shame.

[B]

One of the kids was then followed around by an apparition for the rest of the night wearing formal attire, including a glowing white shirt.

[A]

I don't like that. Because the stuff that went on here, I don't like that they're following kids around.

[B]

And by the way, this one was female, so they were following around.

[A]

Wait, the girl or the kid or the ghost, though?

[B]

No, no, the one that was being followed now was a Girl.

[A]

I knew it. Of course.

[B]

And she was, I'm assuming, young. I didn't mean like female, like she was a female, but you know, she was a, I don't know if she was a girl or a woman or a kid. I don't know what age she was.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Um, but I'm assuming she was a young looking girl, young enough to be trafficked.

[A]

Somebody was attaching to her or getting, she was getting noticed by something.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Yuck, yuck, yuck.

[B]

One of the creepier ones to me is that this same kid who had the sleepover at different times, he also would see a ghost throughout the house throughout the years of a 14 year old boy, just like the son who died on the property before they moved in. In fact, one time a family friend was visiting and saw a 14 year old boy in the kitchen listening in on the phone conversation of Mrs. Gregory.

[A]

Of Jenny Gregory, a little, little sneaky boy.

[B]

So like back in the day when there were landlines, if you. This is for people who maybe don't know how landline phones work, but when the whole house shared one phone or one line at least there would be phones throughout the house that was all connected to the same line. So.

[A]

And Em and I had a spongebob phone obviously.

[B]

And so if someone had, if someone was on a phone call, if you picked up another phone in another room, you could hear them, you could hear the conversation going on.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

And so that was how a lot of us.

[A]

And they could hear you if you, if you breathed really loud. You have to be super, super fucking quiet.

[B]

Yeah, but that's how a lot of people would snoop on each other where if you, you would just listen in on people's phone calls. If you just grabbed a phone from another room.

[A]

That was the good old days, huh?

[B]

That's. My mom used to grab a phone from another room and listen in on me talking to like my first boyfriend when I was in 5th grade.

[A]

LOL. I would have also done that. In fact, if I go back, if I figure out time travel, I will go back and just sit with your mom and listen to you talk to your first boyfriend. Because I think that would be really an enjoyable experience.

[B]

It was basically me telling him to.

[A]

To keep his hands off.

[B]

Yeah, go over there. But I want your mom to bring me McDonald's.

[A]

Get tacos for me. The end.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, so apparently this friend visiting saw a 14 year old boy holding a phone up and like was obviously eavesdropping on somebody having a phone conversation. And so the friend scolded him and was like, I don't know who you are, but like you like get off the phone. You're not allowed to eavesdrop in this house. And apparently this 14 year old, whoever he was, he seemed completely unfazed by being yelled at by this adult, put the phone down and just walked right out of the house. And what, when and when Jenny hung up the phone and came back in to talk to her friend, the friend was like, Jenny, some 14 year old boy was like listening in on your phone call and Jenny I guess had a picture like a newspaper clipping or something from the 14 year old boy who died. And the friend was like that was him.

[A]

She's like not this again. This teenager keeps harassing our family.

[B]

But also, if you're a 14 year old and you're like stuck on a property, of course you're gonna start listening in on people's phones.

[A]

What else are you gonn.

[B]

I love that he probably doesn't need an actual landline phone like to haunt.

[A]

Something, but he probably just stand there and listen.

[B]

Yeah, or maybe that says something about him being connected to the literal property because if he didn't have the phone with him, he could only hear Jenny's side. Maybe he actually wanted to hear the outside world talking back to Jenny. Anyway, @funlove.com it doesn't matter if you're in a long term relationship or one that is still new and exciting, that's monogamous, open or just taking some time with yourself. Even funlove.com is where you can explore a variety of possibilities.

[A]

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[B]

For a limited time, save 30% off your first order. Just use the code DRINK@fun love.com Go to fun love.com and use code DRINK at checkout to save 30% off your first order order. Visit funlove.com today. Over the years, the Gregory's thought about demolishing the property. I think they thought they were going to, like, put a new property on there instead, or they were going to lease it out or something. But I don't know if the ghosts were involved in them wanting to demolish the property. But it never followed through. And eventually the house was damaged from a hurricane, which is why the family ultimately left. Left? But it was still under their name. So even though they moved out, it was their property. But curious locals at this point had heard all the rumors, and so they started trespassing and vandalizing the property. And after it being vacant for a year, this one guy who they had some people come in who, like, if they asked permission, would do, like, ghost hunts in there or seances or whatever, because it was just an empty property at this point, I guess.

[A]

So. Go ahead. Yeah.

[B]

Well, one guy shows up, and he's a parapsychologist and also a Baptist Minister. Whoa. Named Dr. Boo Bar. And he asked the Gregory's if he could host a seance. When he did, apparently he spoke to a girl named Flossy.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And Flossy, I guess, told them during the seance that she was trafficked and killed here.

[A]

Oh, gosh.

[B]

Boobar apparently can also, like, be possessed by the spirits. And he was speaking on behalf of Flossy. Channeling. He was channeling her. Yes. And apparently Flossy was saying, because he said, he shot me. I'm sick, I'm corroded. My body is full of holes. Oy vey.

[A]

That is unsettling. Yeah.

[B]

Bubar then said other spirits coming forward were taken from New Orleans. That's how the people that ran this place were able to find them, is that they were brought over from New Orleans. Apparently some of the spirits coming forward were also saying that they had died in the upstairs bathroom, probably from botched abortions.

[A]

Oh, for God's sake.

[B]

And one person who attended the seance said that while he was channeling these spirits, this second witness saw the tables moving by themselves in the house.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

So during the seance, Boobar mentions a few times that the spirits will never be free until a fire destroys the house. And then, like, predicted a house fire. He was like, eventually. Eventually this place is going to be on fire, and then the spirits will be free. Not long after the house catches on fire.

[A]

No way.

[B]

And this is like, a few months later, I think, and there's a house fire. The building is essentially Destroyed, which is why it's no longer there. And interestingly, this fire happened after another group had just performed a seance in the house. So people think maybe it was that seance. Maybe this guy's prediction was wrong. Right. But firefighters on the scene said that the fire looked suspicious, and they couldn't prove anything. But it was suspicious.

[A]

They found a Baptist minister's robe nearby.

[B]

Yes, he ran nude through the burning building. So as you predicted, they told Boobar, eventually found out about this, and he was like, oh, the place caught on fire. Interesting. And he seemed weirdly happy about it.

[A]

Uhhuh.

[B]

He said he was weirdly happy because the spirits were finally free. But it feels fishy. Fast forward a few years, and Boobar is convicted on four federal arson charges.

[A]

No, after me. You're me.

[B]

After predicting another location, which he previously worked at would be destroyed. No.

[A]

Oh, my God. What a cover, though, for an arsonist.

[B]

Yeah, to be like.

[A]

To be a seance. I mean, what the. That's crazy.

[B]

I wonder if he just finds haunted, dilapidated places that are going under anyway so that he can, like, get his fix.

[A]

But to be already a minister, like, he's gone through a lot to get to a point where he can just go in, hold a seance, and be like, it'll catch fire. Let me get my matches. Holy shit.

[B]

I wonder how much of it was a ruse and how much of it just, like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Held hands and, you know.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

But yeah, apparently he, like, also, there was one article about how he threatened, like, or he. He claimed that there would be a bombing at some point. Okay. A plant. And then he ends up somehow being involved in that before the bombing.

[A]

Okay, so this is like a serial killer or something. He's just, like, getting his rocks off on this, I guess.

[B]

He sounds like it's. Yeah. So because of this, it's never been confirmed about the Cahill mansion, but it's speculated that he's involved in that fire. And because of that, though, a lot of people. People now don't believe any of the stories of the Cahill mansion because they think, well, obviously he faked his parts. Maybe the Gregory's are faking their part. And so they.

[A]

Right. It kind of like, lends incredibility to the whole thing. Like, it's. Yeah.

[B]

So if all that stuff really did happen, though, and the Gregory's now, like, by proxy, are now not believed. Is wild. But others believe that it's very haunted. And in 1989, a new house was built on the property, but there's no information on if it's haunted.

[A]

1989. So it. So it burned. It did burn, like all the way.

[B]

Down in like 1970. Yeah. And then it was, I think, a vacant lot for a while. And then in 1989, a new house was built. So 10 Kimball Drive or whatever does still exist, but it is a private residence and maybe not haunted, so do not go there.

[A]

I cannot believe this did that.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I mean, I guess we don't technically know, but like Jesus.

[B]

And it's also. That's wild that it's the most shocking part when it's like we've always wanted an explanation for any part of my stories. And now that we've got one, we're like, I can't believe it. It's like, for sure.

[A]

It's like, well, well. But to be honest, I feel like every time people like kind of brush that under the rug, like any real kind of evidence, concrete evidence, is like, well. But it's probably still a ghost this time. It's like, oh, no. This motherfucker was like an arson. Like a known arsonist.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you know, if we ever wanted to Marvel Cinematic Universe this and you wanted to cover him as a true crime.

[A]

I was gonna say David Boobar. I can't believe it. I'm gonna Google that. Hold on. David Boobar.

[B]

And if you type in arson, I think his articles about him come up.

[A]

Here we go. You are psychic. The incredible story of David Boobar. Is that his name? A former Baptist minister who is now a full time professional psychic and felon or.

[B]

And criminal.

[A]

Hey. Yeah, this is weird. Did he actually go to jail?

[B]

I think so. I mean, he was convicted.

[A]

Wow. I'm very intrigued about this. I'm very intrigued. Okay, well, I'll look into it later because we don't have the time today.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

That's because I'm doing part two of my story.

[B]

Very excited.

[A]

Do you need an intermission before we start part two? Okay, great. This is part two of the kidnapping of J.C. lee Dugard. The last thing I told you, which Em and I recorded yesterday, everybody else heard this, you know, a week ago. But basically Terry and her mom had both been looking up at the moon separately. They, Terry, Carrie, had no idea that her own daughter JC was alive, looking at the moon, just like she was 150 miles away after being kidnapped. And it would be 18 years before they saw each other again. And JC would have to survive the unthinkable to make it back home to her family. That was the last thing I said if you have not listened to part one, please do, because this will not make sense to you otherwise. And let's get into part two. Okay. Or do you have any questions then before I.

[B]

No, I'm going.

[A]

Okay, cool. So in the coming years, again, Terry obviously has no idea that her own daughter's still alive. She can hope, but she doesn't know. And most people presume she has died by now. In the passing years, Terry, who is the mom, continued to speak to the press and plead with JC's abductor to bring her home. She would say to the cameras things like, please don't hurt her. She's a good girl. She'll do anything you ask her. Just don't hurt her. Authorities searched on horseback through all of the nearby woods with no idea how far away JC really was. Was people considered like maybe some ransom scheme, like somebody was trying to get money out of this, but no demands ever came in. Some people were suggesting the child replacement theory that like a family wanted a child and like, you know, abducted her to.

[B]

I didn't know that's what it was called. Yeah, it's, it's, it's called the child replacement theory.

[A]

Yes, child replacement theory. Thank you.

[B]

I didn't know there was a name to it.

[A]

Yeah, child replacement theory. And it's like that idea that we've seen on like SVU and stuff where a parent who's desperate for a child will take somebody else's and kind of replace them as their own. Investigators also compared JC's case to other abductions in the region, such as the 1988 kidnapping of nine year old Michaela Grecht. Now, this is a very dark story as well. This is like a crime story within a crime story. Michaela and her best friend Katrina. This is also, by the way, three years before JC was abducted. So we're in 1988 and nearby, three years before JC was ever abducted, Michaela and her best friend Katrina rode their scooters to the corner store on a Saturday morning. Morning, daytime in late 1988. And it's horrible because I've seen interviews with her mother, with Michaela's mother, and apparently it was the first time she allowed her daughter to leave the house alone.

[B]

Oh, my God, the guilt, I can't.

[A]

Imagine, like with a friend. And she said, fine, it's just a few buildings away, like literally the end of the block. Like, I'm not trying to scare everybody, but it is such an alarming thing. Like the end of the block, the corner store. And she said, fine. You can go with your friend with your scooters.

[B]

I think this is another reason why I refuse to be a parent where.

[A]

I'm just, like, so scary.

[B]

I just know that I. I mean, I was raised by a helicopter parent. I know I'm capable of it. I.

[A]

You just. You just have to be so good at compartmentalizing like I am.

[B]

Yeah. Terrifying.

[A]

So what happened to Michaela is that she and Katrina left their scooters by the door of the corner store while they went inside to buy candy. And when they came out, one of the scooters was missing. So Michaela looks around, and she sees her own scooter. Scooter next to a parked car on the ground. And she tells Katrina, let me go grab it. So Katrina goes to her scooter, and she was also interviewed. And she's like, I just walked over to my scooter, and as I was, like, about to, you know, turn around, I heard Michaela screaming. And when I turned, this man had, like, apparently put the scooter next to his car so that she would approach the vehicle. He grabbed her, her, shoved her into his car. She was kicking and screaming, but of course, too small to get away. The man tossed her in, got back, and sped off. First of all, so traumatic for everybody involved. Katrina ran back into the store, who to tell them what happened. They called 91 1. And Katrina described the man. Again, this is the middle of the day on a Saturday. Katrina described the man and his vehicle to police, who mobilized immediately to try and find her. Her mother was sure, like, this would be figured out quickly. It just happened. Like, I let her out of the door. Apparently, she turned and said, I love you, Mommy. And she said, I love you, Michaela. And that was the last conversation they ever had. And her mother was like, surely she'll be found. But three years passed, and she was still missing when JC was kidnapped.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So now when JC's kidnapped, police are like, well, these might be related, right? Like, this is. By the way, if you see photos of the two girls, they look so similar. Like this kind of same age, blonde, little girls, kind of same, just running around on their scooter, you know? And although Michaela disappeared in Hayward, which was three hours from South Lake Tahoe, there was a lot. A lot of similarities. So the. The. Like I said, they were both same age, both blonde, both kidnapped in the middle of broad daylight in front of multiple witnesses, and there were no ransom notes, no leads. And so this seemed like a similar case, basically. And like jc, Michaela had completely vanished off the face of the earth. So they're thinking these must be related somehow. Investigators search for any connection between the girls. Like, maybe they knew the same, like, family friend who was a known offender, or there was some other connection, but they found nothing. In fact, JC was being taken from Hayward toward Antioch, California, which they had no idea at the time, which was 170 miles away from home. And after, like, now we're going to do, like, a little perspective shift. So we're going back to JC now because I've already revealed the plot twist that she's actually alive. So from her perspective, what had happened is after she was pulled into the car at her bus stop, remember she had two abductors, a man and a woman.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The abductors shoved her to the floor and covered her with a blanket and heavy objects to keep her down. Oh, and of course, still recovering from the initial assault, which, if you recall, included a taser. Like, they literally.

[B]

Yeah, they stun gunned her.

[A]

Stun gunned her. And still shaken, obviously, from that. She was already disoriented and in pain. And then underneath the blanket, she started to overheat, especially because they're like, loading her with heavy objects and driving several hours and she thought, fought the urge to throw up because she was afraid as this little girl. She was like, she already knew if she threw up, she wouldn't. She would choke on it. Like, she wouldn't be able to turn her head to. It's just so horrific. And eventually she ended up losing consciousness. So when she. Yeah.

[B]

Clock out. Yeah.

[A]

At that point, what more is going to. I know, it's horrible. When she woke up, one of her abductors uncovered her face and offered her a drink. And he told her he got an extra straw so she wouldn't have to use his straw draw. Wow.

[B]

Oh, the consideration is out of control.

[A]

Kind of you. He laughed and told the other abductor, the woman he couldn't believe he'd gotten away with it.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Imagine witnessing that sick. Soon they got back on the road and JC drifted off again until they reached their final destination, which she heard the abductors call home. So she knew now, like, this was their home. Home.

[B]

And now you're home.

[A]

And now you're home. Exactly.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

When they arrived, the man who had attacked JC with the stun gun told her he had very big, very aggressive dogs and she had to stay very close to him and be quiet or else they would attack her. He covered her head with a blanket Led her into a house where he took off all her clothes and made her shower with him.

[B]

You know that shower wasn't a shower.

[A]

This is horrible. Horrible.

[B]

There's no way that he just stood next to her.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

No, he didn't. Then he moved JC to a small soundproof shed in the yard with a pile of blankets on the floor for a bed and a single window that had been covered by a towel. The room was barely ventilated at all. It was unbearably hot. And he handcuffed JC there and left her alone for hours every single day, only occasionally returning to bring her fast food and a bucket to use as a toilet.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

In the weeks following the abduction, JC depended on her abductor completely, down to just the most basic needs. She couldn't eat, drink, or even pee without him stepping in to help. So there's like this emotional dependency that she developed, especially as a child, on this person who's.

[B]

How old was she again?

[A]

Feeds her.

[B]

How old was she again?

[A]

She was 11.

[B]

11?

[A]

Yeah. So she's very little. And. And now like, her only, only means of survival is this treacherous man who grabbed her. So she's in this shed. And of course it's not just lonely, it's also, mind numbingly boring. She only has her thoughts. She doesn't even know where she is or what's going on. And again, being 11, she tried to track time by the days and nights, but she could only see like through a towel covered window, like when the sun went down. So she was like almost guessing at how many days were passing. And JC's abductor ended up becoming her only connection to the world. And his visits were the only, like, interesting thing that ever happened.

[B]

Yeah. Which, like the, the. I can't imagine the mental, the mental gymnastics of like weirdly getting excited to see someone just because I'm assuming. But I'd be like, oh, if it's the most interesting thing that's happening today.

[A]

It'S at least a break in the monotony. Yes, yes.

[B]

But then as soon as he's there, you're like, oh, get away from me.

[A]

No. So apparently, despite herself, she started looking forward to his visits because otherwise she's just sitting in there. And she learned over time that her abductor's name was Philip Guido. And he learned. She learned he was holding her in his own recording studio. Great. I know. There was also a second room attached where he would keep instruments and sound equipment and he would sometimes, sometimes have his Friends come over to play music, and they would move J.C. to the house until the friends left and then.

[B]

Move her back in because I knew she'd probably bang on the wall and scream for help.

[A]

Well, she was in the studio.

[B]

Right. I thought, oh, oh, I see, I see, I see.

[A]

So they would take her out.

[B]

I thought they'd be in the second room, but no, I think that was.

[A]

Just where they stored the instruments. But they would, like, take her out of the studio, have all the friends come over, play music, put the instruments back, and then bring her.

[B]

Perfect. Imagine being one of his friends and knowing, like, I was in the wrong, a hostage was in when I wasn't there.

[A]

Yeah. And by the way, that is a big pattern in this case. So they're not the only ones. As time passed, Philip made what he considered noble improvements, I guess, to her living situation. He got an air conditioner for her, so the room wasn't so hot. He removed her handcuffs, which, by the way, she said in an interview. Interview that he told her they were fuzzy handcuffs so they wouldn't hurt so much.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And he left a bucket in the shed so that she could use the bathroom whenever she wanted instead of having to hold it until he got there, which, like this is an 11 year old child. The generosity dark, darkly upsetting. Philip told J.C. that he hadn't. That he had taken her because he had a quote problem. And together she could help him to make sure he didn't need to hurt anyone else.

[B]

So now it's up to her to be okay with all this.

[A]

He's putting this pressure and guilt on her to save other little girls. It's so sick and twisted. Of course, as we already probably all suspected, he repeatedly raped J.C. all the time. And over time, J.C. eventually met her second abductor, the woman, Nancy Garrido, who's Philip's wife. So to jc, Nancy seemed hesitant to spend any time in the shed. But of course, JC was like, can somebody come talk to me? And can somebody give me any clarity? And for so long, it had only been Philip. So Philip told JC to do what she could to befriend his own wife, Nancy. He was like, can you just make her more comfortable in here, please?

[B]

Oh, my God, this is so sick. It's your fault that she doesn't feel comfortable in here.

[A]

Yeah, it is. You're 11. You should probably make sure that you're so.

[B]

You should make it more hospitable for her so she hang out with you, because otherwise I'm getting yelled at that. She doesn't like that I have you here.

[A]

I mean really, it's like, it's beyond. Months passed and Nancy did spend more time with JC as JC's life simultaneously remained like very weirdly routine. Like it was like so unstable, but also routine. Like of course you don't know. You're like, you kind of know your day to day, but you don't know what the outcome is going to be.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Philip also promised JC a cat and ended up getting her several pet cats. But then over and over again he would take them away. Whenever they peed on the floor or he felt they were just like annoying him, he would just get rid of them. Which I imagine is like an extra cruel thing to for a child. Any companions, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Like not only is it like in general if you gave a little girl a cat and then ripped him away from her, but on top of it, it's like the only thing she has.

[A]

Exactly in this very traumatic situation. And then he would be, never mind, they're annoying me and get rid of them. JC would continually bond with every new cat he brought. She would teach them tricks. She loved them desperately. This so sad. They were her friends, they were her only companions. She actually kept a journal about one of the cats and she would chronicle their months together before Philip inevitably got rid of the cat. And she had months of just journal, daily journal entries about how close she was with this cat. JC's only consistent connections were Philip and Nancy, her two abductors. One time Philip was gone for weeks and Nancy had to care for jc and it was a really weird and uncomfortable time. But Philip finally returned and life went back to routine and JC just kind of lived like this and years ended up passing. And when JC turned 14, she got pregnant because of course that was bound to happen eventually. And she ended up giving birth to a baby girl and went through labor at home with only Philip and Nancy, who had watched birthing VH VHS tapes to prepare.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

And this girl is 14. She doesn't even. She was abducted when she was 11. She doesn't even know about sex presumably, let alone being raped. And she doesn't.

[B]

Or that's how babies are made or.

[A]

Right. Like there's no context for this. And so she's suddenly giving birth at home with no medication and only her abductors to deliver the baby. Babies. Luckily the baby was healthy and they both were okay. And J.C. basically became a full time mother at age 14.

[B]

Well, there's nothing else to do. Jesus Christ.

[A]

Living in this shed.

[B]

And also, like, this is a sidebar. But like, imagine like the awkward, like it was up to her to make Nancy feel comfortable. And now all of a sudden, she's pregnant with Nancy's husband's baby.

[A]

Oh, my God, you're so right.

[B]

And also now you're relying on this person who now is even more uncomfortable around you to give birth, to help you give birth to your baby. Like, it's just like the dynamics are so crazy.

[A]

It is, it is. It's so such a mind in every way. So when she became a full time mother, Nancy and Philip often slept in the other room where they kept the recording equipment to, like, assist with the baby. Because I guess they were like, concerned enough to like, care for the baby.

[B]

I think if there was a. I mean, I. Yeah, I GUESS they have.

[A]

14 year old, like, what are you gonna. She doesn't know. Nancy would take the baby outside because JC wasn't allowed to go outside. Right. So the. Nancy would take the baby outside. And she knows what she was doing to the baby.

[B]

She could have been.

[A]

Well, she was literally just giving the baby air. And JC was like, thank God. Like, because now I have at least a little bit of just time to myself. Not just watching this baby all but myself. They were basically caring for the baby more than they were caring for jc. They were like, oh, this baby needs fresh air. This baby needs to be properly slept.

[B]

And so was she used for the couple to have a baby?

[A]

I don't think technically. I think this was just kind of a byproduct of it.

[B]

And then Nancy seems to be helping quite a lot.

[A]

They felt, I think they fell into the role a little bit, you know, like, they were like, okay, this is the next natural step. The consequence of what we've done feels.

[B]

Almost like that movie the Room.

[A]

Yes. If I've been thinking about that the whole time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Big, big. Yikes. So. So JC was relieved occasionally when Nancy would take the baby and like, give her some outside fresh air. But when JC was 17 years old, this is three years later, she gave birth to another child.

[B]

Oh, my God. So imagine raising two toddlers in a studio.

[A]

Two babies in a shed. Oh, by the way, this place didn't have electricity for a while. And then they ended up putting wiring, like, wiring from the house to the shed for like, kind kind of half ass electricity. So it's basically like room. That movie you're talking about Brie Larson. Right? I think the room is the one. The.

[B]

Oh. With Tommy was so sorry.

[A]

Yeah, you're right room. No, I get them mixed up. Very different vibes. Like, probably the most extreme different vibes you could find. But again, she had the second baby, and she and the baby made it through labor safely and delivered delivery all over again. And Philip ended up building a tall fence around the backyard because he wanted JC to be able to go outside without, like, being spotted. So he built this fence. And it'd been years. I mean, six years. So finally she was able to go outside. She had not been outside.

[B]

I mean, I imagine your muscles are just atrophied. You can't even get outside.

[A]

Yeah. What are you gonna do? Like, walk around a circle, you know? And she'd been out enough to, like, like, be transferred to the house and back, but not, like, be able to spend time outside. So she was finally able to spend time outside of her living quarters. And she actually moved into a large tent, and she made this tent like her own as best she could. She homeschooled her daughters. She's 11. She was 11 when she was abducted. Like, her schooling ended at 11, and.

[B]

Now she is a sixth grade reading level.

[A]

Right now she's trying to teach these children. Children how to be children. I mean, it's just out of control. She was given access to the computer. She researched homeschooling methods, designed lesson plans. She created worksheets for her daughters. Like, she was so caring and compassionate and mothering toward her own daughters, even though she was 14 and forced into.

[B]

The role also, like, I don't know if she's old enough to be thinking about this yet, but is she wondering, like, do these kids just get to up and leave one day? Or, like, is she homeschooling them just to also live in a shed?

[A]

I mean, I don't know. She's 17. I think she's just like, I guess this is my life, and the kids get a better life than I do. Like, getting to be out and about with the parents, so.

[B]

Because I'd be suspicious the second that they were even saying homeschool them, when it's like, well, does that imply that they're gonna go somewhere and need these skills? Like what? Like, I'm surprised that the guy even encouraged that. It was just like, oh, you just have two children that we can't tell anyone about.

[A]

I think kind of like what you said, they sort of fell into the. Like, they sort of, sort of. Maybe they weren't planning it. Maybe they were planning it. But, like, the. Philip and his wife Nancy got really invested as parents of these little children. So it's almost like she fulfilled the role of surrogate as a child, and they kind of took over and acted as though these small children were their own flesh and blood, you know? So using the computer one day, JC Quickly proved that she had a skill for graphic design because she was kind of of, like, helping make these lesson plans. And the thing is, Philip had a printing business where he would design and print business cards and other, like, freelance items for small businesses. And when he realized that JC could use the computer and do this kind of graphic design, he let her start designing the stuff he would sell.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

So often JC Thought of her mother. She could not even remember her own mother's face. Face. But she knew, looking at her own daughters, that they resembled her mom. Isn't that so dark? It's like she would look at them and go, they remind me of my mom. Even though I can't really put my finger on why or what it is about my kids that look like my mom.

[B]

Yeah, Something in your memory gets triggered when they do something. Yeah, she said.

[A]

Like, I didn't know if it's her, their nose, their laugh. Like, I couldn't figure out what it was. But something reminded me of my mother. And she knew, actually, that she could look for her mother online at any time.

[B]

I was gonna say, like, is this guy unaware of the Internet? Like, how is he? That was such a risky thing to just trust her. I think maybe the narcissist thing. Like, oh, I've gotten away with everything else so far.

[A]

Yeah. And it sort of worked. She was just so, like, under his thumb and now had these two children to care for. And this. She was like, it's been almost half my life. Like, this is just how I live now. And, you know, there's that, like, mind of, oh, well, would anyone even care? Care? Does anybody even want me anymore? You know? And so she just couldn't get herself to go there. And, like, if she left, where would she go? Is her mom even around? Like, who would take care of the little girls? And there was just a lot of, I think, emotional turmoil there. And Philip and Nancy, of course, had done their best to raise her to believe the outside world was dangerous and terrifying and nobody wanted her, and everybody was glad she was gone. You know, all just the mental mind that, like, you tell a child to make them convinced you're their only connection to the world. And she was like, oh, my God, I have these two little girls now. I'm so scared to even leave with them and impose the world at Least here I know what they're gonna get, right? And I don't know, it's kind of like room. Like, I don't know what's waiting for us outside of this.

[B]

These four walls also might just like, she might have been like, I don't know what's gonna happen, but at least we're killing time. Like, yes.

[A]

At least we're, like, surviving and eating, you know, and we love each other. I mean, the her and the kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So eventually, JC was allowed to go on short trips with Nancy, like, to go thrift shopping for clothes or buy some groceries. They didn't have a lot of money, but she went by the name now, I've heard Larissa or Alyssa. I've heard, like, both, so I don't know which one it really was, but they basically changed her name. And once JC accidentally left her purse in another aisle while they shopped, and she went back and it had been stolen. And this kind of, like, confirmed to her, oh, well, the outside world is scary because, oh, I left my purse in one spot, it got stolen, and they were like, see, this is what happens when you leave the house. Like, people, they were able to trap.

[B]

Her, like, to a point where she almost wanted to be trapped.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

That's what she thought.

[A]

And she thought, like, nobody else was going to give her the time of day. Like, if they're out just stealing her purse, who's going to care that she was kidnapped? She also feared, like, what would happen to my daughters if I left them. Like, would they be harmed in replacement of me? You know, it just. There was so much turmoil there. And in the years since JC's abduction, Philip, oy vey had become fiercely religious.

[B]

Well, he was only one step away, away from being a full cult leader, so.

[A]

Well, get ready. You're onto something. Because he read the Bible often, and he would lecture them on its contents and what he believed were the messages. He said he had prayed to God to hurt his daughters and that he had been cured of his problem.

[B]

Oh, well, then release me. Okay.

[A]

Precisely. When he and JC ever chafed or he failed to keep a commitment to jc, he often blamed his behavior on outside forces like the angels. He said, oh, it's not my fault. It's like the angel's fault, which, like, now, you know, he's losing it fully. Yeah. She was often resentful of Philip because she would school the girls all day day, basically start running the printing business he operated. And if she ever tried to address him about the issues, he would just Blame the angels. He'd be like, sorry, they're just not letting me.

[B]

I can't wait to start using that on you now. Just.

[A]

I'm sorry. It's the angels.

[B]

You know how it is.

[A]

Oh, I sure do. He. Hey, get this, M. He attempted to start his own church. So you definitely called it all.

[B]

All you need is a controlling person who already has taken slaves to get involved in religion and. And decide realize that he's the prophecy.

[A]

A narcissist. Yes, exactly. And so he told people he knew that he could speak to angels who are apparently always preventing him from taking a lunch break. You know those angels?

[B]

Those pesky angels.

[A]

Those pesky angels. And he said he was about to change the world.

[B]

Yuck.

[A]

Now I can't wait to tell you how he got caught.

[B]

I can't wait either. I know it's going to be something really stupid.

[A]

I'm so dumb.

[B]

M. I. I think. Think it's an absolute cause and effect of his narcissism. What?

[A]

Amen. Hallelujah. You're right.

[B]

Like, he had a billboard that said, I can do anything, even take someone hostage, and I wouldn't even notice.

[A]

You might as well, right? Because in 2009, Philip walked into the UC Berkeley Police Department, bringing with him JC's daughters, and spoke to a police officer who was head of security at UC Berkeley and also in charge of. Well, she. I don't know if she was special head of security, but she was in charge of special events on campus. So she was in charge of security of, like, any events they were holding. And Philip said, I would like to host an event here at UC Berkeley promoting my church.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And Lisa Campbell, who was interviewed, was like, listen, I don't. I'm like, wait, Kimball? Campbell.

[B]

Campbell. I was like, oh, synchronicity.

[A]

Close, though.

[B]

So she said, no, I'm busy. I'd love that.

[A]

She was like, I'm like, really busy, but, okay, what's your, like, pitch? And she started to become concerned as he talked about the two girls he was with, because she's like, this is just so something is off, right? She asked him to come back the next day, which I think is so smart. She was like, hey, why don't you come back and you can give me more detail? So in the meantime, Lisa told police officer Ally Jacobs, good job. Hey. Yes, these. This guy and these girls came in. Something seemed off, and they're coming back tomorrow. And so Lisa's like, I'm in. I'll be there. So Philip returns, and he brings with Him A book that he said he wrote and needed to be shared with the world.

[B]

I guarantee it was, like, on, like, a notepad or something or, like, a embarrassing. He, like, figured out Microsoft Document.

[A]

Yeah. Like, so embarrassing. And so, of course, Lisa and Allie are like, all right, we have this guy's name now let's look into him. Philip Garrido. They look into him. He has this rap sheet of the century. He's on parole for kidnapping and rape. They contact his parole officer to be like, hey, this came by and says he has this manifesto or whatever.

[B]

Did he forget, like, how the police system works?

[A]

Like, I mean, I think it's just like you said, like, some people are so narcissistic. They think they're just one step ahead of everyone else.

[B]

Did he just think, like, there's no way they would look me up in the system? System?

[A]

I guess he just thought, like, he's such a savior of the world that, like, it doesn't matter. I don't know.

[B]

I mean, I don't know, because there's like, no. Eventually, wasn't he gonna have to, like, if he really wanted to open a church, wouldn't he have to, like, file? And, like, wouldn't people, like, look into him? I mean.

[A]

I mean, I think he would probably just assume. If he's this far gone, he'd probably just assume like, oh, this is part of my church now.

[B]

Well, the angels would protect him, right?

[A]

Exactly. Like, the angels told me to do it. I don't know. There's probably so many reasons he could come up with, but either way, they, like, contacted his parole officer, and we're telling him the whole story. And the pro officer was like, wait, wait, wait. Who was he with? And they said, oh, well, Philip came with two girls he introduced as his daughters. And the parole officer was like, philip does not have any children. Like, we visit him every month, and I know he doesn't have children, so this is fishy.

[B]

So either he's kidnapped them, or he's got a big secret.

[A]

He's either lying or something's going on. So he called Philip in for a meeting, and Philip showed up this time with Jake Tracy to meet his parole officer.

[B]

This is beautiful. I mean, I mean, like, obviously, this is saying a real person story, so in that way, I'm like, holy. I feel so bad for her. But also, while I'm just paying attention to him being a narcissistic piece of.

[A]

This is.

[B]

This is art.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. He's walking right into it. Thank God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this time when he was asked about the children, he said they were his nieces and that he didn't know how to get in touch with his brother, who was actually their father. And in another room, of course, they separated. JC and they asked her, like, what's your involvement with Philip and the girls? And she kind of, like, kept changing the story. Like, I don't think she knew what she was supposed to say. And of course they were like, hold on to that thought. We're gonna go back to Philip real quick. So they go back to Philip, and they're like, we have a few more questions. And they kept him for a few hours, and then finally he just full on confessed and said that that's actually J.C. i kidnapped her 18 years ago. It barely took any pressure. Just. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know which one I want for him to crumble or him to try.

[A]

But the craziest part is, like, it's been 18 years. So it's like, I wonder if it's just been so long that he kind of doesn't have the energy for it.

[B]

Anymore, or maybe, like, she'd served his. Her purpose, right?

[A]

And he's over it. Like, I don't know what the deal is, but he basically crumbled right away.

[B]

And maybe he's like, I don't want to deal with these kids. My wife has hated me for 18 years because I brought a girl home. And maybe I. It's better to just go to jail so I don't have to deal with anybody.

[A]

I might as well, just because everyone.

[B]

Else is a problem.

[A]

Give it all up now. And I mean, the fact that it was 18 years. So he finally admits it. And the officers tell J.C. she needs. So they go back to J.C. right? And they're like, okay, Philip just told us that your name is not Allison, it's Jason. And you were kidnapped 18 years ago. And they said, hey, you need to. You need to tell us your name. You need to confirm your identity. And she had not spoken her own name out loud in so many years that she had to write it down.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And think about this. She hadn't probably written her name since she was 11.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Or, like, at least not owned her own name, you know, since she was 11, outside of maybe a diary. So Philip and Nancy were arrested. JC and her daughters were taken into protective custody. And suddenly, on what was like, just an average day in her turmoil of a life of just being trapped, suddenly she was free. Which also, like, when what you were saying, why after all this time, it's like, why did he bring her to the police station? Like, he must have had some inclination to give himself up. Right. Like, why else would he bring maybe or.

[B]

No, I would think that he's just, like, such a narcissist that he got away with the kids yesterday. So now let's even push the stakes even further this time and take her. I don't know.

[A]

For what? Like, for like, just the kicks or just like.

[B]

I would think it was just the.

[A]

Kicks because, like a parole officer, it feels like the last person that you want to. I mean, I guess. Yeah. Maybe just was like.

[B]

I think after 18 years of having that kind of, like, disgusting confidence, like.

[A]

You, I guess, are really. Yeah.

[B]

Pushing. You're pushing it every time. Time. Like, I think you just like the risk at that point.

[A]

You're right. And it probably is so warped at this point. Like 18 years of just getting away with, like, this. And by the way, I forget if this is in the notes or not, but. Important point. Many parole officers came by because this was part of checking in on their parolee, and they came by often. And there were reports of children in the yard. There were reports from neighbors saying, we're worried. There's this girl there. There's a little kid. Kid. And parole officers asked, who are those kids? And he said, oh, they're just like my nieces. And they just let it be. So there were so many times over the 18 years where it could have been caught. You know what I mean?

[B]

I can't imagine the amount of people who could look back now and go, I could have done something without even knowing that.

[A]

The pain of that must be so unreal. Like 18 years is out of control.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's literally a whole.

[A]

A whole. No. And she was 11 when she was kidnapped, so, I mean, un. Unreal.

[B]

So she was how old when this happened then? 18 plus 11. So 13, 29.

[A]

Yeah. So she was just about 30, I believe.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Imagine starting your life now with two children. With two kids.

[A]

Well, imagine being a child and then skipping all the way, you know what I mean? To being like, your mother's age, basically. Like, it's with.

[B]

With also 18 years of, like. Well, also trauma.

[A]

I wish it was sk. Right. But it's not skipping. It's just that. That dark, dark period of trauma. So the police contacted Terry and told her this is her mom, told her, hey, your daughter's alive. Which.

[B]

Imagine that. Yeah.

[A]

And guess what? You also have two granddaughters. Like, the shock of that.

[B]

Because I would. I wouldn't believe them at first, I'd be like, you have the wrong person.

[A]

The way that they describe, described having to come to terms with the idea that she was probably dead. Like, how on earth could she still be alive after 18 years, you know, statistically and otherwise. And the fact that she called and said, not only is your daughter here with us right now and you can see her, she also has two children, your 11 year old, you know, it's just so trippy. And so, of course, J.C. was afraid. Like, she hadn't seen her family since she was 11. What if they couldn't accept her daughters? What would they think of her after all these years? And the night before the reunion, she had to somehow figure out, and this is so sad, because it's still on her. Even when she's technically safe, she has to figure out what to tell her daughters, like, how to explain how they ended up here and how she's gonna have to introduce them to their grandma. Why there's going to be so many tears and news cameras. I mean, it's just such a burden. And so she decided she was going to tell them the truth. She told them she had been taken as a child. Child. But weirdly, both girls seem to, like, completely understand and be empathetic. And they were so excited for JC to be able to see her own mommy. Like, they were like, you get to see your mommy tomorrow.

[B]

Like, were they?

[A]

I would say, I think, you know, if I'm guessing, like, 13 and a lot.

[B]

Yeah, something like that. Because if she was pregnant by 14 and she's almost 30, so they would be like 15 or 16 then. Yeah.

[A]

So they were like teenagers. Teenagers, yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so they were just very empathetic and were just excited for J.C. to be able to see her mother. And when J.C. was so terrified. But when she saw her mother and was reunited with her, she described it as feeling whole again. Terry, of course, had never given up hope that JC would come home, which I don't think any mother really does, or any parent of a missing child really does. But, you know, usually you don't get that happy ending. JC's younger sister Shayna had grown up. Remember that baby that the stepdad had been, like, more kind to than her? So Shayna, of course, lived her whole life under this shadow of, like, this ghost older sister, the ghost of my sister who went missing. And so now she gets to reunite with baby Shayna, who's Now, like, probably 20. You know, it's just crazy.

[B]

I mean, imagine, I, on top of everything, Else. So like, I can't of. I, I don't know how she must have felt. The, the mom. Terry, to see granddaughters that are older than the last time you ever saw your daughter.

[A]

Oh my God. Yeah. The te. The, like you never even got teenagers.

[B]

You never got to see your kid as 15, but you're seeing your grandkids 15. Oh, that has to be so weird because you're like, I wonder if this is what my own kid looked like at 15.

[A]

I know, remember? And then she kept saying like, oh, I recognize my mom in my own kids, but I don't.

[B]

Yeah. So you know, Terry recognized her for her daughter and her grandkids and she's like, I have to assume this is what she looked like and I just missed it.

[A]

Mind to see a kid 18 years later who looks almost like the kid that you lost 18 years ago. Oh my gosh, it's just so much, it's so much. And oh gosh. Terry said that just days before JC came home, she had gone outside, looked up at the moon and asked the moon, moon if it knew where Jaycee was.

[B]

Oh, wow. She was still looking at the moon after all those years.

[A]

And J.C. told her, I also went outside looking at the moon and was also watching it and thinking of you.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

They did this a lot. I think once she got to be outside, she got to go do what they always did, which was sit on the porch and look at the moon. And now they're doing it separately.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

In 2011, Philip Garrido, age 60, was set sentenced to 431 years in prison. Excellentante Nancy, who's 55, received 36 years to life. I know, right? No, better not one year less than 431 years. JC was also awarded a 20 million dollar settlement because of all the parole officers and law enforcement that had missed the fact that she was being held hostage and being used to birth children in the shed. Um, so she was awarded that $20 million settlement. So in 1976, quick backtrack. So this was. Now we're in 2011 that he's been sentenced. Right. But in 1976 he had actually kidnapped 25 year old Katie Callaway hall and he had taken her to a storage unit in Nevada where he raped her and held her for hours. And when police showed up at the storage unit by chance and knocked on the door, Katie. So apparently Philip had said to her, this was well before he had abducted jc but he, he told Katie, do I have to tie you up or are you going to be quiet? When the police showed up at the storage unit, and she said, I swear I'll be quiet. I swear I'll be quiet. The police show up, and of course, now. And she's been interviewed in these documentaries as well. And now when the police show up, she goes, well, this is my only chance.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

There's no way. There's no other way. So she just runs and starts screaming and thank God because they are able to. To rescue her, get her out of the situation, which sounds like obviously was not going to end well. And Philip had been sentenced to 50 years in federal prison. And Katie later said in an interview that she had come to believe he was put in her path because she was strong enough to survive and make sure nobody else would ever go through this. But he was paroled 11 years later. And then immediately the JC de guard thing happened.

[B]

Do we ever find out, like, how he knew Nancy? Like, how quick did they end up together after he was paroled?

[A]

Oh, that's a really good question, actually.

[B]

Because it sounds like she could have also been, like, a victim or something, or. I don't know. I don't know what her dynamic is.

[A]

I don't actually really know the details. She does not get a lot of description. Yeah, I don't. I don't really know.

[B]

That's actually because it sounds like if she was. If he was paroled and then met her, he. She must have known something of his background or, like, at least he was in federal prison, you know, like, what's. What's her gimmick and why isn't she telling on him and why. So I feel like she was also being threatened behind the scenes, and we don't know that. Or maybe she's also twisted.

[A]

Yeah. Who knows? It's like one of those things where you. You hear stories of, like, couples who just unfortunately find each other and end up being, like, fuel to each other's flames, I guess. But, yeah, there's no real. There's no real clarity. I mean, it says that she worked as a nurse's aide and a physical therapy aide, and she charged with kidnapping, rape, and false imprisonment and was convicted, so it doesn't really say much.

[B]

Yeah, I'd love to know her behind the scenes of, like, why she never called the police on him or something.

[A]

Very curious about that. And I don't. I don't have the answers. I. I wish I had. I wish I had taken the time to know that, but.

[B]

No, you're good.

[A]

I'll look into it. But so in the 18 years that Philip had, by the way, like, imagine this. So he has already been in prison for 11 years for. Okay, remember when he went into UC Berkeley and said, I want to. I want to showcase my new manifesto slash religion? And they were like, let's just do a quick check and find out that this guy had been in prison for abduction and rape. That was for the. The story I just told you about Katie. So he was paroled after 11 years, and then in the following 18 years, which is when he held JC and her daughter's captive. Captive. Like I was telling you, parole officers and police repeatedly failed at noticing this. And it was not that discreet. Like, neighbors would call occasionally and say, hey, I'm worried. There are little kids next door in the backyard. And they never seem to, like, go to school or never seem to have parental supervision. I don't know who these kids are. And police would show up and be like, who are they? And he'd go, my nieces. And they'd go, okay, bye. You know, and there was just. Just never any. And to think, like, this guy was in prison for kidnapping and rape of a young girl. It's like, what you think.

[B]

No wonder, no Wonder she got $20 million.

[A]

Yes. It's like, with the context. It's one thing if you just, like, don't have any context surrounding why there's kids there. If you have the context that this guy has been in prison for raping a child or. No, sorry, she wasn't a child at the time, 25 year old. But raping and abducting a girl, a young woman, like, wouldn't you think I will at least do a little more thorough? All you got to do is open the shed and you see her bed and all that nonsense.

[B]

How was there a parole officer who never looked on his entire property?

[A]

They said they, they rarely inspected the home, which was part of their job. They were supposed to inspect the home? They were supposed to. Yeah.

[B]

Like, why would. If someone's. If someone got only 11 out of 50 years, you would think, okay, and.

[A]

You'Re getting complaints from the neighbors about girls in the backyard.

[B]

Yeah, I would think if someone's done 11 years, you can go check. Especially because they're like, you can do a little perusing, a quick scan. Jesus Christ.

[A]

I mean, it's just out of control. And like, at this time, like, I don't know if I gave it enough air time, but, like, basically she was running the business. So there was one client who was interviewed and said, like, there was A mistake on my business card. So I called and like, later I found out it was JC I was talking, talking to. But like JC said, oh, we'll fix that right up. Mrs. So and so and like fixed up the business card so she's like an employee and manager at this company also. And interfacing with clients like she's fully been swept.

[B]

I mean, also, I love that. It's like, because he's such narcissist, he opens a business and then makes like his literal victim do it. But then he gets to reap all the Reward, of course.

[A]

100. It's just.

[B]

But he's busy writing a religion, so.

[A]

Busy talking to angels. It won't leave him alone. Yeah, it's really, really up. Sometimes the parole officers would, like, make appointments and then never even show. Like, there's just a lot of, like, neglecting their duties there. Which, like you said, is probably why the $20 million dollars were awarded. Like I said, the Garridos lived in a residential neighborhood. They were complaints being called in. For example, in 2006, a neighbor called to report that two young girls appeared to be living in a tent in the backyard.

[B]

And although, of course, this oversight is crazy.

[A]

Fucking giant alarm bell bells. Because he's on parole for kidnapping, the responding officer only gave him like a citation and said, like, hey, don't let your nieces sleep in the yard. When Philip left for a while when JC was younger and she had been alone with Nancy, it turned out he had actually been in jail during that time. And even when he was in jail, they didn't come over and do an inspection at the house.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He just said to his wife or partner, whoever she was, hey, watch my kidnapping victim for a few days. I'm going, going to jail. So it was. I know, I know. It was determined that authorities repeatedly failed to follow basic procedures which would have led to a much earlier discovery and rescue of JC than 18 years. And after her discovery, of course, they did an extensive search of the property. And, you know, they looked for evidence that might link him to any other kidnappings, like Michaela's, for example. But they couldn't find anything, which is extra hard because Michaela's mom, who thought, like, her daughter's case would be solved in hours, is now 21 years later, and JC's kidnapper is caught, but they find no evidence of Michaela on the property. So she doesn't even get answers. The Gitos defense tried to argue. Imagine being the defense lawyer tried to argue that JC could have sought help because she had access to the Internet. Yikes. And that she and the Garridos and her daughters were just a big happy family. Yikes.

[B]

But, like, I do have a. I do wonder about, like, defense lawyers. Like, that I'm just like, how can you.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Do that?

[A]

I know.

[B]

How can you go to bed?

[A]

You know, it's got to be really conflicting. Unless you have, like, kind of socio. Unless you really believe it, you don't care.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But JC's private journal revealed years of JC's thoughts on being a captive. So, like, basically they had firsthand handwritten evidence of her saying, I wish somebody could help me or save me. And so it's like, at least they had actual physical evidence saying, like, yeah, no, no, no, no, no. Like, you can call her a happy family, whatever, but, like, here's literal proof that she was saying, I wish somebody would find me. Her mother read the impact statement that JC wrote for the Garrido sentencing. And it began. I chose not to be here today because I refuse to waste another second of my. My life in your presence. That is, oh, perfection.

[B]

Delicious.

[A]

Her mom's like, I'll step in here. God, I love it. It closed quote. Yes. As I think of all of those years, I am angry because you stole my life and that of my family. Thankfully, I am doing well now and no longer live in a nightmare. I have wonderful friends and family around me. Something you can never take from me again. You do not matter anymore. Reunited with her family, JC wrote two best selling books in which she chronicled her life in captivity and her life after she, you know, got her freedom back. And she founded a. A foundation called J. So her name is spelled J, A, Y, C, E, E. Her foundation is called jc, but it's J, A, Y, and then the letter C, all capital letters. And it stands for just ask yourself to care.

[B]

A.

[A]

And it's. It's her foundation. Their mission is to be of service to families and individuals that have experienced a severe crisis, challenge or conflict through a major life disruption. To spread the message of hope, growth and resiliency through educational and animal assisted programs. To encourage the collaboration of various entities to provide protected spaces for families to heal. And so, through her work, countless others will have the opportunity to heal, following JC's example and strength and her family's love and unending hope. And that is the story of JC Lee Dugard, who is now in her 40s, has a family with her kids. Happy.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Being interviewed and it's just like, yeah, that was up and I'm like, girl, I watched the documentary and I barely survived. I don't know how people have such strong people. Women are so strong. That's all. Women are so strong.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

The end.

[B]

A good moral.

[A]

Wow, girl, it's just so sad. 18 years of your life.

[B]

Yeah, I can't imagine that was. I hope they still look at the moon together.

[A]

Isn't that nice? Yeah, I. When I was little and my stepdad left, which I thought was just like, temporary, and then it ended up being for good. It sounds like some sort of, like, weird after school special.

[B]

But anyway, we've been there. I've been there.

[A]

Yeah, we've all. You guys get it.

[B]

Mine left me at the airport, so I get it.

[A]

Yikes. Yeah. And I remember him telling me, oh, if you ever look at the moon, we'll be looking at the same moon. And I still think about it to this day.

[B]

Oh, that certainly was a traumatic moment. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

But then that person started. I'm not going to name names. But then that person had two kids of their own and stopped speaking to me, so it's fine. It's not like I have nightmares about it every day.

[B]

Mine had two kids before me and now doesn't talk to any of us, so.

[A]

Ah, that would be better because then at least I have someone to, like, commiserate with, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I just, like, watch the family photos and I'm like, well, that was me for a minute.

[B]

Isn't that weird? I. When I was going through my mom's.

[A]

You know what's the most painful? Sorry.

[B]

No.

[A]

Whenever that person. Whenever that person posts about, like, things like this, like the moon or like a book we used to read together, and I'm like, that was our thing.

[B]

Yeah, but he has to know that, right? You would think he knows that, like, it's affecting you.

[A]

I hope.

[B]

I don't know. That's rough.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

My. My ex dad. Yeah. I still think about him. I. It's weird. I might see him soon in court.

[A]

Do you want me to write you here? Why don't we just copy JC's mom statement? I don't want to spend another second of my life with you.

[B]

I. Yeah, I'm curious about how that's gonna go, but. I don't know. I wonder if he'll think about me.

[A]

Leave it to Em.

[B]

I'm like, I don't know.

[A]

Sometimes I think of my stepdad and how we looked at the moon and I was like, well, I'm gonna see my stepdad in court. Is the oneup king.

[B]

I'm not trying to one up. I just.

[A]

I know you're not.

[B]

I'm trying to think of, like, what's the one thing that him and I like, I. I can't think of a thing that he thinks about me. What? I mean, maybe, you know, but, you.

[A]

Know what's so painful is that, like, I always wonder if he thinks about me. But then I'm like, but he has two kids, so it's. And like, they're so close and happy and. Which I'm. I'm obviously so happy for them, but it's like, I just wonder, like, he probably doesn't even. It doesn't even cross his mind. I don't know.

[B]

I think he thinks of me. If there's ever, like, a back to the future reference.

[A]

Because, like, a very specific you thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, like, how could you not think of him in this moment?

[B]

Because I, when he, after he left, he left like a Delorean toy for me as, like a I'm. As an I'm sorry gift. So he must. I. He thought of me then, but I don't have it. I think I do. And I never took it out of the box, which probably says something.

[A]

I don't know what it says, though.

[B]

Me either. Like, I don't, I don't want anything to do with it.

[A]

You keep it.

[B]

Like, no, it's not. Because it's a collector's thing. It's like, I.

[A]

You just didn't want to even touch it.

[B]

Yeah, I was just like, this is kind of gross. Like, thanks for the gift, for leaving.

[A]

Like, you know, I keep my gifts and I'm from the person I'm speaking about and, like, have them, like, preserved, specially in a box.

[B]

I, I mean, there's also. It must say something that I haven't thrown it away.

[A]

I know, right? It's like, man, Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I, I think, I wonder if he thinks about me. I, I. But also part of me thinks he's too selfish to ever do that.

[A]

You know what makes me sad, too, is, like, JC's stepdad was already so cruel to her in the beginning, remember? Like, yeah. When. Well, and her own dad, who said he wanted nothing to do with her and her mom had to tell her, like, hey, your dad just. I mean, this talk about, like, generational trauma, like, this just keeps happening.

[B]

I mean, men, man after man after man, like, you just, like, it just gets worse. Yes.

[A]

And now JC's daughters have to live with. Oh, my dad is a rapist you know? And then like, how do they get. I mean, it's just like. And I spent my first eight, 16 years of my life under held hostage.

[B]

And I didn't even know.

[A]

Hostage.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. People think that us talking about our stepdads, like, is kind of like, uncomfy. But imagine like, what JC has to do every time she makes a friend, you know?

[A]

So we could probably talk more about our stepdads if you wanted to do that in the yappy hour. Or we could do something else. I don't know. We have a lot to talk about in the happy hour, guys. It's raining here. I'm feeling. Feeling moody.

[B]

As if you'd like to know more of our ex dad trauma, then hop on over to Yappy.

[A]

If you have ex dad trauma, let's all go commiserate together. You can find us at patreon.com ATWDpodcast we do a weekly yappy hour, which we thought people didn't like, but it turns out they were just listening through the RSS feed and not the video link, which that was my bad. So apparently people do listen to it, which is shocking because I feel like I said a lot of things that I just assumed was just you and me timing. But it feels like if anything will ever leak about us, I think it will be through Yappy Hour because I really lose my filter there because I know nobody in my own circle listens because they don't pay me money on Patreon. So I'm like, who would find out, you know?

[B]

Well, and for a one night only, if you'd like to hear more about our stepfather, to talk about things that are going to leak, head on over. Catch you there.

[A]

It's so fun, guys.

[B]

That's why drink.