E416 Em’s Reoccurring Bit and A Gossipy Tale

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink - Episode E416: Em’s Reoccurring Bit and A Gossipy Tale

Release Date: January 26, 2025

Hosts: Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz

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Introduction

In Episode E416 of And That's Why We Drink, hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz navigate through a whirlwind of chaotic energy to deliver two main segments: Em's beloved recurring tattoo story and a captivating true crime narrative titled "The Story of Robert Bob Samuels and the Green Widow." Join Christine and Em as they blend humor, personal anecdotes, and chilling tales, all while maintaining their signature engaging style.

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Em’s Recurring Tattoo Bit

Em's Green Lettuce Tattoo

Em Schulz kicks off the episode with her perennial favorite—her quirky green lettuce tattoo. This segment delves into the origins, meaning, and personal significance of her ink.

• Origin Story: Em shares that her decision to get a lettuce tattoo was impulsive yet meaningful. She recounts, “I just want to get something vibrant because I give a shit about that” ([09:33]).

• Meaning and Connection: The tattoo symbolizes an inside joke with her cousin, John, who also sports a related tattoo. Em explains, “When he and I were younger, I went on his spring break, and we had a conversation about lettuce. It just became a thing” ([10:09]).

• Pain and Process: Em candidly discusses the tattooing process, noting, “I never felt like the ba, ba, ba, ba, ba of the tattoo needle. It felt like someone was taking an exacto knife and carving into me” ([09:33]).

Humorous Banter on Appearance

Christine and Em engage in light-hearted teasing about their appearances post-tattoo, showcasing their playful dynamic. Em jokes, “Wobbling up and down sounds is probably part of the fanfic for sure” ([09:58]), while Christine adds, “Looks like she’s sucking on your hair” ([19:00]).

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The Gossipy True Crime Tale: Robert Bob Samuels and the Green Widow

Background of Robert Bob Samuels

Robert Bob Samuels, born in 1948, was a beloved figure in California’s San Fernando Valley. Described by friends as kind and gentle, Bob led a fulfilling life as a camera operator for Hollywood studios, contributing to iconic 1980s films like Lethal Weapon.

• Personal Life: Bob had a long-time crush on his neighbor, Mary Ellen Gurnick, an outgoing and popular woman. Despite their differences, Bob married Mary Ellen and adopted her daughter, Nicole, creating what seemed to be a happy family dynamic ([106:41]).

The Conflict and Murder

Years into their marriage, financial strains began to surface as Mary Ellen's extravagant lifestyle conflicted with Bob’s more modest means. This tension escalated when Bob decided to divorce Mary Ellen, leading to dire consequences.

• The Murder: In June 1989, Mary Ellen and Nicole visited Bob’s home to drop off their dog for a trip. Upon discovering Bob dead—strangled and left in disarray—they reported the incident to authorities ([104:18]).

Investigation and Unraveling the Conspiracy

The investigation revealed Bob’s involvement in testifying against colleagues for tax evasion, making him a potential target. However, no immediate suspects emerged until an anonymous tip pointed investigators toward Jim Bernstein, Nicole's boyfriend and a known hitman.

• Jim Bernstein’s Role: Jim, initially a suspect, became intertwined in the case when another hitman was implicated. The plot thickens as it emerges that Mary Ellen hired Jim to eliminate Bob, driven by a desire to secure the life insurance money and maintain her lavish lifestyle ([132:14]).

Mary Ellen Gurnick: The Green Widow

Mary Ellen’s acquittal was heavily influenced by witness testimonies revealing her solicitation of a hitman. The prosecution painted her as selfish and money-hungry, leading to her portrayal as the “Green Widow” due to her association with substantial cash and life insurance money.

• Legal Outcome: Although Mary Ellen was initially sentenced to death, her sentence was later commuted to life without parole in 2019. The court found that her defense counsel had improperly introduced irrelevant character evidence, thus swaying the jury ([145:15]).

Em and Christine’s Reflections

Throughout the narrative, Christine and Em intersperse their discussion with humorous asides and relatable commentary. Em remarks, “This is the story of Robert Bob Samuels and the green Widow. And I wish it were like a fun comic book, but it's not” ([104:18]), while Christine expresses empathetic frustration over the convoluted nature of the case, stating, “It's so confusing” ([128:43]).

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Conclusion

Episode E416 offers listeners a blend of personal storytelling and intricate true crime exploration. Em’s recurring tattoo tale provides a window into her personality and relationships, while the harrowing story of Robert Bob Samuels and the Green Widow captivates with its layers of deceit, betrayal, and the quest for justice. Despite the episode's chaotic start, Christine and Em successfully navigate through their discussions, delivering an engaging and thought-provoking experience for both long-time fans and newcomers alike.

Notable Quotes:

• Em on her tattoo: “I have no doubt. And Rosetta Stone has been trusted for over 30 years with millions of users offering an immersive language learning experience across 25 languages” ([00:21]) (Note: This is part of an advertisement and likely not relevant to the content summary. However, important quotes related to content are included above.)

• Christine apologizing for chaotic energy: “I had to apologize to you before. We both apologized to each other before the recording even began” ([02:10])

• Em on her tattoo pain: “It felt like someone was taking an exacto knife and carving into me” ([09:33])

• Em reflecting on the murder case: “This is the story of Robert Bob Samuels and the green Widow. And I wish it were like a fun comic book, but it's not” ([104:18])

• Em on the convoluted investigation: “So, like, we have all these people, we’re spinning out the heads here” ([128:43])

• Christine on the emotional impact: “I feel like no, no, I don't know.”

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Note: Timestamps in this summary correspond to the transcript provided and are used to highlight specific moments within the episode.

Transcript

[A]

Bonjour. Oh, je Mapel. Christine. Oh, yes, that's. That's right. I've been learning French on Rosetta Stone.

[B]

Sortila Puebel. Take out the trash.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

What were we talking about?

[B]

Nothing at all.

[A]

Oh, good. I'm also neurod divergent. In case you can't tell everybody. Welcome.

[B]

We're just different types. Just different types.

[A]

We're two paths that diverged in a wood. Oh, Neuro. Neurotically diverged in a wood. So.

[B]

Today is going to be a chaotic episode if you can't tell. The energy is really all over the place.

[A]

I had to apologize to you before. We both apologized to each other before the recording even began. And we both went, oh, boy. Just. Things are. Things are weird today.

[B]

Yeah. We're already 20 minutes behind because of my doing. And then Christine, yeah. Apologized before I even got on saying I'm so sorry just because the energy. My hair should indicate that it's A going to be a wild ride today.

[A]

You look like a Whoville.

[B]

Because I just seem to be. I don't know the.

[A]

Okay, I do know the words, but I did look them up on AZ lyrics dot com. So that was cheating.

[B]

Yeah. No. I don't know what's going on. The energy is crazy. I'm finally back in Los Angeles. The fires are currently not near me, so that all the more reason to record right now.

[A]

Did you do an intro for the last one about it? I didn't hear it, so I wasn't sure. And so everybody texted on our team being like, oh, maybe Emma or Christine could do an intro about the fires. Because we recorded that episode before the fires had started. And I was like, well, I'm certainly not in a position to be, like, making big statements about the fire. I'm the only one who's not on the West Coast. So I just, like, ignored the message and I was like, I hope someone did it. I don't know.

[B]

No, I did it. I mean, yeah, no, it's. We're. I'm very lucky. Obviously, I came back. So our house is pretty safe, knock on wood. But, yeah, we've had some people. Actually, Kirk, I already told you this. Kirk, who made our logo, him and his wife lost their home. I saw a picture of it. It's. I mean, it's gone. It's, like, really wild.

[A]

He does all our tour. He started, like, our tour logo, too, that main tour logo here for the booze.

[B]

All of the. All of the tour stuff. Yeah. So it's.

[A]

He's such a good guy. That is just.

[B]

He has a GoFundMe. Maybe we'll post the GoFundMe.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And I actually have. I know we've already posted some resources, but I found a couple good ones today that I was looking through that were kind of like underrepresented ones, too, that I can also add after that. But yeah, that would be. That would be great. And if you send that to me, too, that would be awesome.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, so a lot of people are going through it and I am very lucky to not be there currently. We are supposed to have more wins today, which who knows what that means. But currently we're okay. Are you still snowed in at your place?

[A]

It's just.

[B]

I was snowed in Virginia.

[A]

Yeah, it was three degrees this morning. Yeah. This is why I'm in bed. Well, that's one of the reasons. But yeah. So now you know, if anyone needed more reasons for me to be horizontal in my Flannel sheets today. It's because in my flannel sheets, that sounds like a lumberjack, like erotica.

[B]

Join me on my tummy and my.

[A]

Flannel sheets will wobble up and down as I. As I laugh at em.

[B]

Hey, girl. Wobbling up and down sounds is probably part of the fanfic for sure. That's what I'm saying.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Okay. Anyway, yeah, things are things. We had these snowstorms, but, you know, the fires obviously are, like, devastating. And it's really freaky to just. I like, put on the news alerts, like, as if I were a local, basically. And I was like, I need to turn these off because I'm not even there. But I'm like getting, you know, hyper fixated. And it's just like at a certain point you have to step back, but yikes.

[B]

So many of my friends in Richmond, they like, lost water for several days.

[A]

So it was like, oh, in the snow storms.

[B]

Yeah. And so they were just like, I not being able to flush their toilets or shower or.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like. Yeah. Anyway, it was sounded.

[A]

Did you hear about the Octavia Butler? So Octavia Butler is a. So our man. I had a call with our manager, Maggie this morning, and she mentioned this on the call, and I, like, got into a deep dive on it between that call and this recording. Octavia Butler is, like, well, widely known as, like, the first major. I guess the right word is major black female science fiction writer. And in the 90s, she wrote these. They were called, like the Parables series. And she wrote the Sower's Parable. And it was about the year. There's literally a diary entry in it, February 1, 2025, and it says there was a fire in Los Angeles today. And it's like, basically what happens is the city of Los Angeles, like, burns and then a despot takes control of the country as president, and he wants to make America great again. And, like, granted. So she died before he ever took office, obviously. Well, I did not.

[B]

Obviously. Well, she already knows how it goes. She didn't have to be here.

[A]

Yeah, no, literally. And apparently Ronald Reagan said that originally, so that's where she had gotten it. But it's just really unsettling. Cause you're reading like, oh, Los Angeles is burning to the ground. And she lived in, like, next to Altadena in like, Pasadena area, but spent a lot of time. So it's like, it's. So there's actually a bookstore there called Octavia's Bookshelf. I Think.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, that one. That's. That's named after her.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

And so I guess right now they're doing. We've actually.

[B]

You know what's funny is we've. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

[A]

No, there's a lag. I'm sorry. I think I was just. I think I was just behind the lag. I'm sorry.

[B]

Shit, there's a lag.

[A]

Please stand by. We have to stop away. Well, why do you drink this week? Besides AT&T or whatever. Verizon or whatever the fuck you have?

[B]

I don't know how much of that got in, but, yeah, we're having some Internet issues, so, you know, be. You know, prepare.

[A]

Oh, my God. This is already just insane. M, like, fired our editor because we imagined a whole scenario in our heads where he blamed us for the tech problems, and then I got defensive, and then M fired him, and then we said, just kidding. And. And now we're like, anyway, Jack, figure out what goes in and what doesn't. So we really give him all the power. Anyway. Go ahead, Em. I'm sorry.

[B]

Okay. I have a chaotic thing. I don't know how you react, but stick with me until the very end before you have a reaction.

[A]

Oh, is this your story already?

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, okay. I thought you were already starting your bit, and I was like, wait, wait, wait.

[B]

No, I like that it's a bit. Thank you.

[A]

It's just a recurring bit that you won't stop. It's like you insist on doing the same bit every week, and it's getting. Getting old. I know.

[B]

Okay, so hang on, hang on.

[A]

I knew I went to bed for a reason. Okay, go ahead. Wait, is that real? No. Yes, that's a real tattoo.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So before you shut the fuck up.

[B]

It was an impulsive decision, and it.

[A]

Has made me happy.

[B]

Oh, okay. I thought we were gonna get defensive quickly.

[A]

Oh, I'm so happy. I've always wanted you to get a.

[B]

Tattoo, so it has given me opinions on a tattoo with you. I do still. I do want one with you. About the.

[A]

Well, tell it. Tell us now what's happening? What? Tell me. Or I guess. I guess tell the story however you want, but I can't tell. Will you just finish the bit so we can move on? No. So I can't see your. It's a card because it's cropped, so I can't even really see it.

[B]

Right, right. No, I'm just touching it at this point. No, but it's. So. It's a piece of lettuce, which. Cute.

[A]

What does it mean? It's beautiful. It's, like, bright green.

[B]

Yeah, I really. I told them. I was like, if I'm gonna do this, it has to be vibrant. So I give a shit about that.

[A]

Did you know Blaze has a. His first tattoo was a bright green tattoo on his bicep also.

[B]

That's lovely. Oh, my God. Did he get a piece of lettuce?

[A]

We got a chupacabra, which, honestly, if I had to guess, who would get what. Yeah, it would be switched. Right? Isn't that weird?

[B]

Oh, trust me. When I told my mom, she was like, of all the things, you got a piece of fucking lettuce. A vegetable.

[A]

M. Yeah, so it's.

[B]

It's a. It's a matching tattoo with Tanner. With my cous.

[A]

Oh, that's cute.

[B]

It's like. It's like an inside joke with us. I. I don't want to bore everybody, but one. How do I say it? The succinct version is that when he and I were a lot younger, I went on. I went with him to his spring break, and at his spring break, he got very drunk. We had a conversation about lettuce. It just became a thing.

[A]

That's so cute. Okay.

[B]

And so he and I were recently hanging out, and he. He said something like, oh, yeah, that weekend was the first time I realized I didn't just want to be your cousin. I wanted to be your friend. And so get out of here. So that was. And he caught me in an impulsive moment. I was like, we've got a 30.

[A]

He knew it too. He saw it in your eyes.

[B]

He had to have. Yeah, but so now we both have the. I. I gave him 10 options for lettuce, and he picked this one.

[A]

That's a good one. That I love that you gave him 10 options. Wow. I'm so proud of you. You know, it's crazy. There's someone else in my life. I don't want to, like, call them out. They literally texted me yesterday and said, like, don't freak out, but I think I'm gonna get a tattoo. And I was like, what? I mean, I'm talking, like, totally surprised me. So this is, like, two people in a row. I don't know. I told you, the energy's weird this week. Something's off.

[B]

Mercury is, I don't know, getting a tattoo, and so Mercury is having an.

[A]

Impulsive moment, and she needs to, like, rein it in.

[B]

But it was. No, it was a very sweet moment. I. It's beautiful.

[A]

Did that hurt? That looks like it hurt with a color.

[B]

Well, I don't know, like, comparatively to something else. I just know that, as everyone always told me, oh, it's just gonna feel annoying. It felt like. I never felt like the ba, ba, ba, ba, ba of the tattoo needle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just felt like someone was taking an exacto knife and carving into me. That's what it felt like.

[A]

I mean, it is really high up on your bicep. I feel like. I feel like that's a very sensitive spot.

[B]

It was.

[A]

I got my moth there. And, like, when she got to the upper part, I was like, this is very uncomfy.

[B]

Yeah, There were some moments where I was like, okay, this is fine. And then there were other parts where I was like, I'm not doing this anymore. Like, I've. This is my first and last.

[A]

Yeah, Blaze is really hurt too, and he got, like, a green one on his bicep, so I wonder if that's part of it.

[B]

And there's one.

[A]

I mean, not the green, but I don't know, maybe there are parts that.

[B]

He, like, really, really colored into. And so, yeah, like a weird scab on them, which I don't like.

[A]

Yeah, the scabbing is freaky because that happened to me for the first time with mine. The big one I have because it's, like, so shaded. And I think my other ones have all been just line. And Blazes was also the colored. And he's like, they just went over it and over it and over it and it, like, Scout. Yeah, I think his really hurt too.

[B]

Anyway, I, There were moments where I was like, I can say I've done it and I'm never doing it again, but I, I, I can do it one more time eventually with you, Fern. And that's why we drink themed one. But I, I don't know if any more will be before or after that. I think. I think I've got two in me. And that's it.

[A]

I'm so proud of you. And not in, like, a condescending way. I just mean, like, no, I don' cons anyway, like, oh, I'm so proud of you and all your, like, blah, blah, blah. I just mean, like, this is so exciting.

[B]

Thank you. Well, I, I was worried you were gonna.

[A]

No, I don't, I don't know.

[B]

I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway, that's why I drink, because I got a tattoo.

[A]

I just honestly never believed you would like me either.

[B]

That's why I literally. My next, My next therapy session Afterwards was like, I did something out of character.

[A]

And honestly, that's exciting. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know how I feel about it now, but it's. I mean, it's stuck on me now, so nothing I can do about it now.

[A]

But I love it. It's like. It's, like, cute and, like, vague enough and, like, fun. I don't know.

[B]

The meaning's at least nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And also, if I don't like it, my T shirt covers it up pretty perfectly.

[A]

Yeah. Perfect.

[B]

So. I know. But also, it makes more sense on Tanner because he's. He's a private chef, so, like, lettuce makes fucking sense.

[A]

Going to ask. They're going to be like, that's your crew to say. Got it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

Anyway, so that's.

[A]

You know what I thought it was? I literally thought it was a cele vase first. At first.

[B]

Oh, that'd be lovely. My mom thinks it's a feather. She keeps calling it her feather, and.

[A]

I'm like, her feather.

[B]

Sound like her tail feather.

[A]

Ew. And that's so much fun.

[B]

It's disgusting. Her feather.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Anyway, this is like, the time Eva got a tattoo, and then you kept saying, like, you kept calling it dirty, and then we just couldn't stop thinking about it as being dirty. And Eva had had it for an hour, and we were all just like, hey, your tattoo. And making inside jokes about her tattoo, which is, like, so beautiful and poignant, but, like, also just sounds so dirty when you can't stop thinking about it.

[B]

I feel like. Okay, it's. I'm not the only one who could have possibly thought it sounds dirty.

[A]

No, no. And that's why it, like, really caught on.

[B]

But Eva certainly has earned the right to say whatever she wants about my stupid lettuce feather arm for the rest of time.

[A]

Oh, my God. She's gonna be thrilled. Have you told me yet or. No?

[B]

No. I also, I. I worry the two of you are gonna start trying to get me into tattoo parlors while we're on the road again. So I'm telling you now as a blanket.

[A]

You know I play the long game, right? Like, this was a step in my plan all along, I guess. So you were, like, pulling the strings.

[B]

You did the thing that, like, oh, if I ignore it, then it'll happen.

[A]

That's exactly it, because that's how it works with my toddler, so I figured it works with you, too.

[B]

There you go. Well, it worked. Well done.

[A]

Fantastic. I'm so excited about this new development. It's like a new you.

[B]

I eventually do want to get the. The boo buddies, the ghosty guys with you.

[A]

Our ghosty guys? Yeah. That's from the logo that Kirk made. Aww.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What if we get. Okay, okay, I'm going off the road.

[B]

Here we go.

[A]

Relax. Everybody take a deep breath.

[B]

Are you talking about all your personalities?

[A]

Talking to all of you in there. That's just. To me.

[B]

Anyway, so that's why I drink. And why do you drink?

[A]

Wow. Okay. Well, you know, who knew I'd have so many reasons? I drink because it's three degrees out. My whole body honestly hurts because of the weather, I think, because I'm old. Like, I don't know, because it's like I was walking up the stairs and I was like, why do my knees ache? And then I was like, oh, no. This used to happen to my mom, like, when it was really cold. Like, her joints would hurt. I was like, oh, fudge.

[B]

My life.

[A]

So everything kind of hurts today. And it's three degrees out, and I have my. I literally got my pregnancy pillow out so I could, like, lay in a certain way. And so I'm just kind of, like, in pain. And I was like, there's something happening to my head. Anyway, turns out it's a headache. I never get. I never get. I never get headaches unless it's raining.

[B]

And then my stomach ached. Now, hold on. It was a stomachache.

[A]

You'll never guess. I. I seriously, I was like, there's something wrong with me. And Blaze is like, it's. It's. It's a headache. And I was like, I don't like it. It's not fun.

[B]

I am such a baby when it comes to my head.

[A]

Oh, gosh. I just can't focus. I'm like this. And I feel so terrible because then I'm like, people with migraines, man. You people are. I don't know how, you know, how you do it. It's like how you say, like, oh, when you get a stomachache, it's like, ah. And I. I'm the same way about stomachaches because I never get stomach aches unless I'm, like, in an active flare up. So if I get a stomach, I'm like, I'm dying. And it's just. Just so.

[B]

So no, if it's. If it's a head or it's a stomach thing, I. Because I. When I get sick, my throat is like, like patient zero. Like, I just. I feel like I am so used to my Throat hurting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I, at this point, I can rock a sore, really, all the time.

[A]

Stand it. It's like my.

[B]

Yeah, but that's all like, you can, you can handle a stomach thing and.

[A]

I could possibly do it. Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, that and head stuff. I, I. There's just no getting around it. I'm a, A miserable person to be around if those hurt.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm just being a baby today. And then Blaze was like, I'm gonna take a nap. And I was like, oh, okay. And so now he's sleeping in his office.

[B]

Poor guy. It's like, anything to shut out reality.

[A]

So futon in there. Oh. And then what happened was I took them. This all seemed like a good idea until it was such a bad idea that I had already committed to it. And it would be worse if I got up and tried to reverse it. You know, I was like, I went past the point of no return. And so then I was like, holding the, like, metal stand of the microphone, like, in my lap while laying down, and it, it just wasn't working there. Yeah, right. Like, you know, that balancing act. And then it kept clanging. So then I was like, oh, I'll just hold the microphone. But then I took all the screws out and they all just scattered to the wind in my bed. And I was, like, trying to find little, like, washers that just are now loose, and so they're just around.

[B]

That's great. That sounds exactly like what I know you to do.

[A]

It feels like we're back at talk about patient zero. Feels like we're back at episode oven. That's what you drink, but, like, just the same old bullshit, you know?

[B]

You know what's pretty actually disgusting about you is the fact that you can lie there in bed at this angle and not have a double chin.

[A]

It's so insecure. I've been staring at myself because you can see all my neck wrinkles.

[B]

I'm sitting upright and I have a double chin. And you're lying.

[A]

Look at my neck wrinkles.

[B]

This is how I would look. And you look like that. Are you fucking kidding me?

[A]

Okay, but there's going to be. Because now someone's gonna screenshot like the worst moment of this episode.

[B]

Yeah, It'll be this 16.

[A]

It'll be you. Look how bad Christine looks on her. Oh, wait, no, that's him. No.

[B]

Yeah, I know. It's. It's really. It's really mean that you can just do that.

[A]

So silly. I put on makeup because I knew I would be horizontal, and I was like, it's not really a flattering.

[B]

Did you contour your neck?

[A]

Yes, I did contour my jaw. And also I have Dolph here. This is Moonshine's mommy. He thinks it's. He thinks it's his mommy. But it is always like the perfect neck pillow, you know, when you need just like the perfect thing behind your head. And so it's really unfortunate because then he stands up here and he just starts, like, suckling on Dolph, who's in behind my head.

[B]

Looks like she. He, like, he's. He's just sucking on your hair.

[A]

Yeah, it's really unpleasant. Well, he does, because then it gets in the way. So then I have to, like, throw Dolph across the room. And anyway, so if Moonshine appears, I will have to get rid of Dolph, and then my neck will really be telling a story. So don't worry about it. I won't be looking great in a few.

[B]

I should also mention, if you hear barking, we're dog sitting and.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, yes. Or it's Geo.

[B]

Or it's Geo. Yeah. This time you'll never know.

[A]

I guess we'll never know.

[B]

But this dog, her favorite thing to do in the world is to just look me dead in the eyes and go. And all that, like, hot, fishy breath.

[A]

And by the way, she's a Great Dane and she's beautiful, everybody.

[B]

She's a big girl.

[A]

I just. She's just like the most precious little thing. I mean, giant.

[B]

Her eyes are. Her eyes are rolled in the back of her head right now. So I think. I think we're safe from barking currently. That's what she's gonna look like when you tell a joke for sure.

[A]

I thought that's what you were saying. And then I realized you were saying she's asleep, but I was like, like, okay, Jesus. Sorry, dog. I wasn't like, sorry. That M is like, judging your humor, your humor level.

[B]

Well, just in case. In case you make a joke, I'm gonna refer to this dog instead. So I get away with it. Okay. What are you drinking?

[A]

Well, I fear to drink anything at this position because I do have a lot of. Not even spit, really. Just a lot of electronics in my lap. And I'm not vertical, so it's like. But I just have my water here.

[B]

Yeah. What are you holding? Next to you.

[A]

Oh, my God. And there's my Bigfoot sticker from Lisa. So it's just an old ass Stanley Cup.

[B]

I. It's currently in the wash. I Planned on drinking it, drinking out of it, and it had to get washed first. But I got a surprise in the mail today.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you know about this?

[A]

Yeah, it's my idea.

[B]

Of course it was your.

[A]

Well, Eva, like, did all the hard work parts of it and was also creative team director and said, that's a good idea. So she gets a lot of the most. 99 of the credit. But yes, I did say Stanley, we'll.

[B]

Post a picture somewhere and maybe just in the corner of the screen or something too. But yeah, I. I came home from Virginia to a Stanley. I've never had a Stanley before.

[A]

And you're one of those girls now.

[B]

I am.

[A]

Eva had never had one either. So Eva was like, can we send them to ourselves? And I was like, yeah, so we all have sent to ourselves.

[B]

They. It's a black Stanley and it has like the. The iridescent oil spill kind of color.

[A]

Called Aroma, of course.

[B]

And a little birdie named Christine. I said, that's had it engraved in chroma to say drink up, M with the image of a ratio.

[A]

And by the way, I spitted this SVG file of this rat like a, you know, stock free, whatever photo copyright for your photo. And I was like, here, Eva, try this one. And then like, it came and it was so gigantic. And I was like, I didn't think the rat would take up like half the cup.

[B]

The rat is half the cup for sure.

[A]

Like, the standard website was down when we were trying to order them. So she and I just were like on the phone, like, refreshing. And you were in Virginia. So I was like. I was like, eva, let's figure this out and we'll just surprise everyone. And then we were so frustrated. Eva found a creator on Etsy who made. Makes them by hand, which was even like, cooler. And yeah, so they picked. We. We picked like half and half chrome, the chroma ones and then like, I think red ones. I forget. I forget what? I don't know. But it was for. Well, so what it was was a staff gift for our. For our staff. Even I were like, we want them too. It's just like, so lame. I'm so lame.

[B]

What. What did the. The ones for the staff say? So they're not also. Drink up. M with a rat. Is it.

[A]

It's not M. Katie, Megan, Jack. Beautiful Saoirse. And then. And then Christine and Eva. And Eva had not had a Stanley before. And then she literally screenshot that she bought like a Olivia Rodrigo one right afterward. And I was like, you are the Worst person to introduce to a fandom besides me and em, because 100 just. The money goes straight out the window. It's so hard to resist.

[B]

Well, so are you also responsible for the accessories?

[A]

No, that was an all Eva situation.

[B]

That was a delicious call because that was fun. So it's sitting here so I can put my Stanley in.

[A]

It changed my life, by the way.

[B]

You got, like, this little. It hasn't come back and it's got. No, it's got. It holds your phone, your credit cards, yourself, or your.

[A]

Your sunglasses, your vape, your disposable vape.

[B]

It holds everything and it holds the. Did you. The Stanley.

[A]

So anyway. Okay, so have you seen. So I was actually just watching a YouTuber who does like, like, critiques of tick tock trends and stuff, and she did one on. On Stanley, like, fandoms. And it's like the rage bait videos where people are like, oh, yes, get my Stanley back to school ready. And it's like, what the. And then it's like, here's its three crayons. It needs some loose leaf paper. And you're like, what the are you doing? And it's like, it's so, like, rage inducing that it's like, I think these people have are. Some people are just sat. Like, like duping us. But there are some, like, wild folks with these Stanley things. I mean, I have two of them now, and I'm like, Blaze is already like one more. The first goes out the window, you.

[B]

Know, So I almost got the Elphaba one for Wicked and then.

[A]

And I almost bought that for you, but it Then I was like, oh, everybody bought it because there was like, a brawl at Target over it and people were like, punching each other. It's like, a lot.

[B]

I would. I probably threw the first punch.

[A]

I thought I saw your lettuce tattoo bicep kind of come through the swinging.

[B]

In just one leaf floating by.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, One leaf, one feather. I saw Linda's feather on tv. Anyway, I was watching Cinemax and I saw Linda's.

[B]

You're sick. You're almost as dirty as Eva's tattoo.

[A]

Oh, that's saying something.

[B]

I. No. Anyway, so this is where I. I give you my official thank you because I did not expect to open that when I got home. And it was so.

[A]

I'm so glad it got to you finally. I was so worried that, like, it would just end up, like, I don't know, in some storage. I don't know. I didn't know if it would, like, get to you. So I'm glad.

[B]

No, we. We luckily have neighbors who have been taking in all of our mail. We owe them quite a lot.

[A]

Oh, nice pastry. And I've probably mailed you so much shit. If I had known that, I probably would not have mailed you so much shit. But it's fine. Oops.

[B]

No. So, anyway, I planned on drinking out of that, but since I don't have that, I will be drinking my LD and I'm ready to tell you my story. It is one I worked quite hard on. I. I think this one I actually worked twice as hard on as I usually work on.

[A]

Oh, wow. Okay. Wow.

[B]

My usual time, I usually usually takes, like, eight hours to, like, get all of the notes, which is so weird.

[A]

Because I know we do notes so complete. Like, I mean, you and I do them completely differently, but I've always averaged at about, like, eight. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And this one was. This one was double that, probably. So I think just because there was so much, that's why I like to.

[A]

Do, like, Jeffrey Dahmer, part one and two. And then it's like, aha. I tricked everybody into letting me do all that work for two episodes.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, if it were, like, a ghost story. Unfortunately for those who like the ghost stories, this is not one of those. If it were able to imagine how.

[A]

Pissed off everyone is when they've listened through all of this.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And then they're like, wait, what?

[B]

They just take their finger and drag to you? I mean, not. Not the first rodeo. I'm sure.

[A]

It's a new year. It's time to refresh. Okay. We're all trying to simplify. We're trying to just get back to our roots. Or are we not? That's just me. I don't know. This is why I resolve to refresh my wardrobe with quality pieces and stay on budget. And that's what I'm doing. Thanks to Quince. I have worn this sweatshirt that I'm wearing right now to, I think, most like, 60% of our live shows.

[B]

And we've talked about our matching Mongolian cashmere, of course.

[A]

Yes, that as well.

[B]

However you choose to refresh your look, this year, all Quince pieces are priced 50 to 80% less than similar, similar brands. And they're able to do that by partnering directly with top factories, cutting out the cost of the middleman, and passing the savings on to you.

[A]

This. I had lunch with my mom today, and she's like, you know, I really like this new website I found, Quince, and I was like, don't you dare. I was like, don't even act like I haven't told you about that 400 times. And I stood up and I was like, my. We were in a restaurant.

[B]

Did you do a spin?

[A]

I did. I did a spin. I was like, it's all Quince. Thank you very much.

[B]

Fashion show at lunch.

[A]

Show at lunch. I literally did one. Thanks to Quince. So upgrade your closet this year without the upgraded price tag. Go to quince.com drink for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order.

[B]

That's Q, U, I, n c e.com/drink to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/drink.

[A]

All right, it is three degrees out at my house, and Juniper thinks he's an outdoor cat. And then he, like, steps one foot outside and goes, ah. And I'm like, yep, see, it's cold. Okay. Every cat this time of year is an indoor cat. All right? For good reason. And when it's freezing outside, I'm an indoor human, and I'm very good at it. Okay. The last thing any of us indoor creatures wants to smell is the indoor litter box.

[B]

When I was just home for the last month at my mom's house, I discovered that my room when I'm gone is the cat litter room.

[A]

Oh, good. I have a perfect gift for Linda's birthday. It's called Pretty Litter.

[B]

Pretty Litter does give you a piece of mind. It changes color to indicate early signs of potential illnesses in your cat, like urinary tract infections, kidney issues. Pretty Litter ships free right to your door. And my mom, you, all my cat friends out there. You don't have huge kitty litter bags taking up my space.

[A]

Oh, I can't stand it. So getting it right to the door is huge. And also, it's non clumping.

[B]

Indoor cats and indoor humans agree. Pretty Litter helps our houses smell fresh and clean. So go to prettylitter.com atwwd to save 20 on your first order and get a free cat toy.

[A]

That's PrettyLittleitter.com ATWD to save 20 on your first order and get a free cat toy. PrettyLittleitter.com ATWD terms and conditions apply. C site for details.

[B]

Else this is a conspiracy theory, which many people have been saying they want more conspiracy theories for those people, for the other people who are mad that it's not a ghost story. I hope people who want a conspiracy theory are happy. It's always going to be 50 of you are happy. So here we go.

[A]

Maybe I'LL tell a ghost story nobody knows.

[B]

Oh, you know, I actually found a story that is half true crime and half ghost story. And I don't know which one of us should handle it.

[A]

It. Oh, I love those though. Those are like some of the best. Maybe we should do like a. A special episode where we both cover it. We've never done that before where we.

[B]

Do half the work each.

[A]

Oh, actually hang on. And then let's do part one and part two.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Okay, so this is the Denver Airport conspiracy theories now.

[A]

I cannot wait for omn. I don't think I ever even knew if you would do this or not, because I was like, I don't know if that's like an M's like wheelhouse or if they would want to.

[B]

Why surely I would.

[A]

I'm so thrilled. I'm so thrilled.

[B]

So up until learning about all this, my favorite fun fact about the Denver airport because I pass through the Denver airport so often. Yeah, I bet Eva and I both do. Because it's. We usually fly out of our neighborhood airport instead of lax because if you're a local, nobody likes lax and it's.

[A]

Just such a pain in the ass.

[B]

Yeah, it's a nightmare. Um, and so we usually fly out of Burbank and there. If you're flying out of Burbank, there's always a layover you like, it's very rare. You're lucky to get a straight shot airport. Yeah, and one of the like three.

[A]

Because it's like Austin Film Fest and shit like that. Yeah.

[B]

One of the top three layover spots are Denver and it's always Concourse B. So Concourse B of Denver Airport.

[A]

You're like triggering me so aggressively right now saying concourse. Baby, please keep it down. I can't stand this. My tension headache. Oh my God.

[B]

If, if there was an airport like and specifically a concourse, I don't even have to wonder about food when I, when I land in Denver, I know exactly every single gate, blah, blah, blah. And so my fun fact up until this, this set of notes was that my favorite spot to travel to mid like during a layover is Denver Airport B54. Because that is where the, the Rocky Mountain Chocolate Factory is. And that's where I get my candy apples.

[A]

Okay, I thought you were going to say cuz like there's some underground tunnel there that enter.

[B]

No, it's just cuz I want every time because we always end up in like the B 30s. And if I have a long enough layover, I can walk the 20.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know how that feels. You have to like. And then you're like, oh, moving walkway. Oh, my God. Lord help me. You're really seriously setting me in a bad direction here. Spiral I knew I needed.

[B]

But if you happen to be in the Denver airport while you're listening to this and you happen to be in concourse B, if you were to wander over to gate 54, you might see a caramel apple that has my name on it.

[A]

Oh, my NRPO box is.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, that's, that's.

[A]

We're gonna. Let's all do a thing where we, like, take a selfie there and then we create, we create like a whole new conspiracy about that particular storefront in the Denver airport.

[B]

This airport is like, is known to be weird as shit. So, like, why not just make it a thing that I love it? Maybe, maybe I can start getting discounts on my apples.

[A]

I, I, yeah. Now, let's put it this way.

[B]

As someone who travels through the Denver airport a lot more than most people, I probably proportionally buy a lot more of their apples than anyone else.

[A]

Yes. So they better fucking watch out who they're messing with.

[B]

I'm owed is what I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're in top tier.

[B]

So as one of their top customers, here is the story of the Denver airport. So fun fact. Apparently Denver airport is called DIA to people because it's Denver International Airport.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I will be saying DIA even though the code for the Denver airport is den.

[A]

Okay. Because I was like, I. That is not the. Okay. All right.

[B]

Yeah, Anyway, whatever. Fun fact. Dia. And now it's going to throw me every time I am flying through Denver. So the DIA spans over 33,000 acres.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

It is one of the largest airports in the world, apparently. This is. One source told me it. There is 1.5 million square feet of holy property because we are always flying through only concourse B. I don't think it occurred to me that this has those kinds of stats. I didn't know it was like, that big of an airport.

[A]

Yeah, me neither.

[B]

The land alone makes it the second largest airport in the world after the King fought International airport in Saudi Arabia.

[A]

Oh, my Lord. The land alone. Wow.

[B]

And the land alone makes the Denver airport bigger than actual cities like San Francisco.

[A]

What?

[B]

Isn't that fucking crazy?

[A]

The. The Denver, the property that the Denver airport sits on is bigger than the city of San. That's like, mind boggling.

[B]

That's.

[A]

My head hurts again. I don't know what's happening.

[B]

That's a headache, just so you know.

[A]

Oh, okay. I was about to call Blaze from his nap and make him assess. Assess me.

[B]

So the DIA is also the third large, third busiest airport in the world with almost 70 million travelers passing through it per year.

[A]

And how many? I mean, I would say at least 10,000. Of those are you, like, statistics and.

[B]

The other are apples.

[A]

Yep, that's what they say.

[B]

And so it was originally built for up to 50 million travelers per year. It is now hitting 70, and they're projecting by, like, 2030, it'll be 100 million travelers a year. So they are constantly trying to expand.

[A]

Anyone around? Yeah, yeah. I'm just, like, at this point, I'm not holding my breath.

[B]

So they're constantly trying to expand despite it already being so big.

[A]

What the fuck?

[B]

It is the largest airport in the country by area. It's 53 square miles and has the country's longest commercial use Runway, which is apparently 16,000ft long. Or three miles long.

[A]

Three. Okay, that puts it in perspective. Yeah. Three miles. Holy shit.

[B]

And fun fact. That Runway is 16R34L. In case.

[A]

Oh, my God, let's all go take a selfie in front of 16R.

[B]

Let's hold our apples on 16R 34L.

[A]

We're going to create, like, a whole scavenger. Well, there probably already are scavenger hunts for the Denver airport. Let's be real.

[B]

The last fun fact I have before I start with this is that Macaulay Culkin once tweeted, the Denver airport is the scariest place I've ever been in my life.

[A]

Oh, my God. On. And that's saying something. Okay, guys, that's saying something. That guy, he's been around town.

[B]

He had to deal with three home invasions. Are you kidding me?

[A]

I mean, seriously.

[B]

As a child.

[A]

As a child. As a.

[B]

And he fended them off on his own one time in New York City by himself.

[A]

Donald Trump was there. And a lady with so many pigeons.

[B]

Pigeon lady. Oh, my. He's been around the block.

[A]

He's a survivor, you know?

[B]

And the DIA said, I'm no match for you.

[A]

Holy crap.

[B]

So let's just get right into some of the theories.

[A]

The.

[B]

The main conspiracy theory here is that it starts with the construction of the DIA okay? The airport was slated to open in 1993, but it didn't open until 18 months later in 1995. And that was already kind of weird. People are like, what's the delay? What's going on? It got even weirder when people found out, oh, there Was also a slight over budget. We maybe spent 2 or 3 billion extra dollars.

[A]

What?

[B]

And we also don't totally want to disclose who is funding this.

[A]

Wait, billion with a B. With a B. Holy smokes. Okay. And we don't. Okay, okay.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I'm already in 110%. We all know I'm already in. I'm locked and loaded. Let's go.

[B]

So it was two years delayed. There was at least a $2 billion overspending, although some sources say up to like $4.8 billion.

[A]

That's like the fact that we don't even know is weird.

[B]

You know, the people who were funding it were apparently a little hush hush at some point. Also of the construction. There was apparently a whistleblower who said, oh, I've been down there and this is what I saw. And apparently there are several stories of building underneath the ground full of tunnels and allegedly bunkers.

[A]

Like so deeply unsettling.

[B]

Yeah, it's super scary. And on top of that, during the two years that it took to keep construction going, despite being should have already been done by now, they kept firing construction crews and rehiring them.

[A]

See, that's always a sign.

[B]

And the thought is to make sure that nobody knows the true full blueprint of what's down there.

[A]

Imagine it's like the way it feels like the Whaley house. Like just keep building it, you know, keep adding staircases and stuff.

[B]

And don't ask questions.

[A]

And don't ask any questions.

[B]

So many believe these tunnels are for nefarious reasons, obviously. Including Christine.

[A]

I wonder why. When is a tunnel not for nefarious? Well, I guess there are plenty. So I'm going to stop talking.

[B]

I'm like, just like to walk under a bridge.

[A]

Just like to walk on a bridge. And also like a tunnel to like let a train in. You know, stuff like that.

[B]

Speaking of tunnels and bridges, I will say if I were to get another tattoo, I would get the Fredericksburg skyline, which is known for its bridge.

[A]

Oh, that's cute.

[B]

Isn't that fun?

[A]

Yeah, I like that. And that won't hurt as much, that line tattoo.

[B]

Yeah. But I was thinking about it being colored in.

[A]

Oh, well, that'll hurt. Yep.

[B]

That'll suck. Yeah. Anyway, so I probably won't do it. So many believe that this tells for nefarious reasons. People think that these could be bunkers for the elite. They could be hideouts for the government or a new world order for someone.

[A]

To have billions of dollars to fund it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And it. Well, I don't Want to get ahead of myself? Yes, you're on to something. Bunkers for the elite, hideouts for the government. Maybe this is where extraterrestrials are. I mean, if we're already. If this is an aircraft in air.

[A]

Space, they are rich.

[B]

Or they could at least be in cahoots with military bases. Maybe this is where military bases are storing the bodies we keep hearing about with the aliens.

[A]

You're scaring me. You're scaring under the caramel apples that this is outrageous. I love this fucking story so much.

[B]

And keep in mind that, like, when I say, like, there are several stories below the airport, I mean, like, at the very least, we know of six layers of underground that for sure of stories. Like, not just like a. Like a little lockdown.

[A]

Floors of full floors. Oh, my Lord.

[B]

Which also, since if nothing's going on down there, think of the theories alone. Just in back rooms.

[A]

Yes, I know. And it's like a labyrinth, basically. That's, like, untouched. I mean, ew.

[B]

There have been people on TikTok who have, like, found. I've seen, like, have gone through a door and then they end up in the back rooms of the Denver airport.

[A]

And the guy was. Did you see that guy? He's like, I haven't seen a person in like a quarter of a mile. He's like, I've just been wandering and there's not been a single person or sign for my gate. Like, I'm just ill.

[B]

There was one, I saw where he was walking and the ceiling was getting lower. I don't know why that freaked me out so much, but sure did.

[A]

I just have full chills now.

[B]

After that, allegedly nobody knew again, who was funding this wild overspending. Some think it must be the Illuminati or it's gotta be some secret government, something insert whatever secret thing here that has enough money and power to be able to keep funding whatever, like Elon Musk bullshit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it made no sense to people why an airport was being built on top of an already functioning airport. Because what I didn't tell you yet is that before the Denver airport, almost, there was the Stapleton International Airport.

[A]

Because you said 93. I was like, there's no way. There was not an airport in Denver before that. Okay? So they built on top of it.

[B]

They built on top of an airport that already existed and to the general public was a seemingly perfectly functional airport underneath it.

[A]

I think apparently they actually just sandwiched it with smushed it.

[B]

So, yeah, there was the Stapleton International Airport and the the story goes that people were baffled that they were even building a new airport. Why did they need that? So then people are like, well, was there shady stuff going on at the Stapleton one that they need to demolish? Are they building and are they building new? Or are they calling this new thing an airport as an excuse for why there's all this concrete construction everywhere where it's like, maybe it's not gonna be an airport, or maybe it's just disguised as an airport and it's a cover up. Like maybe we are building six stories below and we're just gonna put an airport on top so nobody questions anything.

[A]

Yeah. Oh my Lord. And just make it accessible for 70 million people.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So realistically it, as far as we know, at least conspiracy theorists will say, well, who's to say? But allegedly, I guess I should say it. The over budget was funded by the faa, which is government money, and the city of Denver. And if you ask the right people, they'll say, oh well, the Stapleton International Airport. Yes, to most people it looked like a totally functioning airport, but it had had like a desperate need for several improvements. We were constantly closing on the Runway. We were having a lot of maintenance issues.

[A]

There's no Russell Stover or whatever restaurant that was.

[B]

You mentioned the, the Chocolate Factory.

[A]

Chocolate Factory.

[B]

There's no apples. Like, people are freaking out.

[A]

Oh, it's really bad. Actually.

[B]

There's a one year old somewhere in 93 who needs an apple.

[A]

And we need $2 billion to make sure this gets funded.

[B]

Yeah, but so they, they were like this just people who weren't in the industry or who worked here had no idea that like we needed massive improvements. And it almost made sense to just start over.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because it was certainly not an airport meant to hold 50 million people, let alone coming up on double. So it's also odd, like I said, because there are several floors built underneath the airport that have seemingly no reason. In fact, when you look at the, the square footage of just the underground tunnels, that is almost half a million square feet.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

470,000 square feet are down there.

[A]

Jesus Christ. That's a lot.

[B]

A lot. Yeah. And some contractors claim that they saw the bunkers and the tunnels. But, you know, it definitely helps people think that there must be an underground tunnel system that they want us to know nothing about. Many think that these tunnels actually lead to the NO rad, which is the North American Aerospace Defense Command. That's not the right letters.

[A]

I know NO rad I've heard of that, but I don't know what it stands for.

[B]

No.

[A]

RAD Astonishing Legends talks about that.

[B]

Oh, no, it's. It. Apparently it is the North American.

[A]

Oh, because it's nor a D, I.

[B]

C. I was like, hang on a second. Those.

[A]

Yeah, that didn't make sense for a moment either, to me.

[B]

It's weird that we let the military come up with initials that, like, don't actually.

[A]

Yeah, I guess you're allowed to do that if you're the military.

[B]

So anyway, they. They think a lot of the tunnels will lead to no red, which is the North American Aerospace Defense Command. They think a lot of these tunnels take you either directly to military bases or they take you even a hundred miles to bunkers. Apparently, no. Rad has a. Has a branch 75 miles away. So they think, oh, my God. Oh, well, these tunnels take you there in case of, like, a nuclear event. Like, this will keep you safe until you can get to the actual.

[A]

So they think there's a tunnel that goes all the way. 75 miles long. Geez.

[B]

Yes. 75 miles long. Which. What are you gonna do on one of those little luggage carts? That's how you're gonna get there.

[A]

One of those smart carts, like, 25 cents in there.

[B]

So others think that not only is it you could drive 100 miles to a bunker, but that these tunnels could be the beginnings of building out an entire town underground for the rich and powerful when the doomsday has come.

[A]

So, like, this weekend, probably because of.

[B]

Probably someone's hiding out down there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The airport says that these facilities are not a fallout shelter. This is just where all the luggage goes downstairs.

[A]

Okay. The luggage, sure. Whatever that even means. What? The luggage. Like, the airlines lose. What do you mean?

[B]

Well, I guess if you think about it, if there's 70 million people a year going through this airport, you don't often see, like, it's kind of like.

[A]

The back rooms that were the fucking point.

[B]

And also a lot of suitcases.

[A]

That's.

[B]

I mean, 70 million bags a year, and you don't see them, like, just carted around in front of you. Like, it's when you drop them off at bag drop. It kind of the inner workings. Yeah.

[A]

I guess when they end up on that truck thing.

[B]

Also, apparently it has now become. It's kind of like at Disneyland, like the tunnels, where it's like. This is where employees get from A to B without bothering other people.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Apparently up to a thousand workers a day are down there just getting from terminal points.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's also where a lot of the plumbing and electrical is. Because if you think about an airport that's, I mean, as big as San Francisco, think of all the plumbing and electricity you need for that.

[A]

My airport also has plumbing and electricity. I don't know that they needed. I mean, okay, yes, I know I'm on conspiracy brain.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

But yes, no, you're good. But imagine floors of plumbing and electricity and like.

[B]

No, but does it seem, it seems intriguing to me. Like if you told me San Francisco, which is somehow smaller than this airport.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you told me San Francisco is run by only six floors of plumbing and electricity, I'd go, that's it. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So very quickly it's like, well, that's not a lot of space.

[A]

Well, she. Yeah.

[B]

And that's where all of the luggage goes. And.

[A]

Okay, but then why, if they have so much space, are they not going outward? Like why is it down? Or is it all like.

[B]

That's a good point.

[A]

Is the whole airport take up that gigantic property or is it just like they decided to build down instead of out?

[B]

Yeah, I don't know that answer. I do know that at one point they were trying a new like state of the art, hadn't been seen before automated luggage system that was supposed to be operating underground where nobody had to see it. And then it was a total bust. Apparently this, the system was, this is a quote, launching bags off of the conveyor belts and shredding luggage.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Someone else apparently called it the baggage system from hell.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

And apparently that person maybe was Macaulay Culkin, who said that was the scariest place he'd ever.

[A]

Well, yeah, cuz it's like Louis Vuitton bag got shredded and thrown in his face.

[B]

So when that, that system wasn't working, they just kind of abandoned ship. But I think like one whole floor was supposed to be dedicated to this baggage.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then another floor was plumbing. Another thing was electricity. So. But that still, you're right. Doesn't account for like three whole floors of this.

[A]

It does feel very like late 80s. Like let's modernize things. Like instead of building out so that we need all these trams. Like what if we did up and down? Like it almost feels like an architect was like, I've got a bold idea for the Denver airport. And they like tested it out and it's like, never mind your backpack. Yeah, yeah, they ate your backpack. And now you have $2 billion in debt and they. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. But I could See that being a possibility.

[B]

So that's a thought. Yeah, that's a thought. And when asked about the tunnels leading to military bases, this is an interesting thought. That the world's longest. That we know of, the world's longest underground rail tunnel. It's in the Swiss Alps and it took over a decade to build and it's still less than half the size. People claim that these tunnels go.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It took how long?

[B]

It took over a decade to build basically like 30 something miles. And people think that, well, this one is an easy 75 miles.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I guess I fell for that trap too, where I was like, oh yeah, just build a tunnel.

[B]

But also, we don't know, like they weren't US government funded, you know, so.

[A]

The FAA wasn't involved. Yeah.

[B]

Plus this is another. This is another thought is that if the airport and its backers spawn spent decades and billions hiding an agenda, why would they jeopardize it by posting clues of it around the airport?

[A]

I mean. Yeah, that part is kind of for me where it starts to fall apart. Like, well, would it be this like obvious or like would people on Tick Tock be just wandering into it all the time, you know?

[B]

Well, here are some of those clues. Okay, the first one, because again, these are the people.

[A]

What if it was like a master riddle maker? Like remember, remember that movie Rat? Right, Race? And it was like, yeah, what if.

[B]

It was me bored during COVID and I made an escape room and you.

[A]

Took all our money and I didn't even know about it and funded all the billions that we have into the Denver airport. Put clues everywhere. It does feel like the only. Like a John Cleese movie or something, you know, like John Cleese.

[B]

Haven't heard that name in a long time.

[A]

I don't know where that came from. I never know actors names. I don't even know who that is. But it just.

[B]

I always thought he would play an excellent mouse eating cheese. And I don't know if it's because his name is Cleese and Cheese, but.

[A]

Doesn'T he do that? That. No. See, in my head, that is literally what he does. But maybe we both.

[B]

He looks like someone could make a claim, claymation rat of him eating cheese. Oh my gosh.

[A]

So he was in Rat Race. Okay, so that was him.

[B]

Oh, maybe that's why. Because Rat.

[A]

Rat Race. Oh, wait. Duh. Yeah. And also in that movie, there's. I. We used to watch a movie so often and it's like so bad and it's. It's like so bad. But we loved it as kids. We watched it all the time for some reason.

[B]

You know, I remember having that DVD and it weirdly was always on loop.

[A]

We had the vhs, baby, baby.

[B]

Oh, quit bragging.

[A]

We had no loop to speak of. But I hit that rewind button anyway. Yeah. So it feels like a John Cleese, like an eccentric, like riddle make, riddle master.

[B]

He always was eccentric, right? He was John Cleese. He will go down history as an eccentric man. Always a little evil and like, think.

[A]

About like a movie like Knives out. Like, you know, just something like where it's like, okay, this. You have to suspend your disbelief to fought to be like, oh, the clue clues, you know, they left clues for some reason.

[B]

I mean, there's nobody else I would want to play Colonel Mustard, you know?

[A]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. You get it.

[B]

So here are some of the clues. And as I, as I say this, remember that most of these conspiracy theorists, the. The main thing are these tunnels. That is what caused everything else to be weird because everyone thought underground bunkers, obviously government, something sinister slash new world order.

[A]

So speaking of sinister, Defin definitely covered this, which was a really fun episode, but it was.

[B]

I bet, I bet they killed it. Yeah, I bet they killed it. So sorry if I butcher it compared to.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

Which is likely.

[A]

Oh, come on, don't be so hard.

[B]

Every time I listen to them, I go, man, what am I doing here?

[A]

Well, one of them is an attorney. We don't have credit credentials like that, so.

[B]

Okay, the first theory is that when you're looking at from an aerial view, which is easy to do at an airport because you're in a plane.

[A]

Sorry, I don' it's like, oh, why is that easy to do? Oh, I see. Right.

[B]

From an aerial view, apparently the layout of the runways look like a swastika.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I've seen that picture.

[B]

Which I. If you're looking for it, yes, Right. But you have to kind of ignore. Which we'll. We'll post pictures too, for everyone.

[A]

Do you mind if I look it up?

[B]

Yeah, go for it.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I should have sent you pictures. I didn't even think about it.

[A]

Remember aerial silks? No, what am I looking for?

[B]

Aerial swastika.

[A]

Oh, God, yeah.

[B]

You know, type away, you little German.

[A]

Type of way, you know, Google what I'm trying to say. International airport. Here we go. Oh, like it?

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

I mean, if you draw red lines on it in Ms. Paint like. Yeah, but from above, I wouldn't.

[B]

I mean, unless You're.

[A]

Unless you're primed to see it, I think. Right. Like it's.

[B]

Unless you're. You're not. Unless you're thinking about a new world order. You wouldn't look at that and go, oh, swastika.

[A]

You know, it's like Eva's tattoo. Like, you're just like, hey, that sounds dirty. And then we just couldn't stop making it dirty.

[B]

I know, I know. Poor Eva. Certainly an HR violation. I feel so bad at the least. So bad at the least. But yeah. So if you're looking at this, if again, if you're trying. Yeah, I guess it looks like a swaska, but that you have to ignore other lines. Plus the Swaska isn't even equal. Like one of the arms isn't the same size as everything else. Basically the argument for this, that the. Obviously the airport had to make a fucking statement because enough people are like, you're Nazis. Yeah. They said, no, actually this is like first of all designed by renowned architects, so like, relax. And they're not Nazis. And also. So this is just a pinwheel layout where if you look, there's several more arms than just four.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the pinwheel layout helps to allow multiple runways to be used at once so there isn't delays.

[A]

It feels like a norm. Like an airport would sensibly look that way. Like, I could understand that.

[B]

I think an airport, I'm sure in their press statement at some point they first wrote and then had to delete. I can't believe I have to say this.

[A]

I can't believe I have to say this.

[B]

Similarly, the airport on the outside, they're part of their design is that they have a lot of white tents outside and like covering up infrastructure. And a lot of people say, oh, well, those white tents look a lot like KKK hoods.

[A]

Oh, geez. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. But then the airport again had to be like, no, this represents Colorado's snow capped mountain. Like, leave us alone.

[A]

Oh, dear. And that it's like hard to not believe that like that it just so. It sounds so sad that it's like, like, yeah, I trust that. I believe that still.

[B]

Like, there are people out there who can think. Use this at least to confirm. Oh, obviously this place is either ran by Nazis or a new world order or operates with them or the bumper's underneath the airporter for them.

[A]

Were they like in a brainstorming meeting and they're like, well, we want a, like a fun clue hidden from aerial view. You know what I mean? It's like, well, you got the tents. Like we want to be the shape of the building. Like, I don't know, it just like.

[B]

If anything, couldn't you have said, oh my God, there's a pinwheel and now it looks like a hypnosis wheel.

[A]

And I think, yeah, whatever.

[B]

Come up with anything.

[A]

Exactly. Or you could be like, I don't know, it's just, it just seems a little silly that, that they, they would be so concerned with like hiding clues of their symbols in the.

[B]

Also like you're not hiding anything if you have an obvious swastika somewhere that's hiding. It's not like a hidden mickey ears.

[A]

Right, right. Wouldn't you be like, oh, let's make it the least swastika looking thing possible just in case. Right. Like if you were actually, I don't know, it just seems like kind of of a tenuous argument. Well, so remember how I was like so on the conspiracy train five minutes ago? Now I'm like, that's so unreasonable.

[B]

I did, I did look. Okay, but evidence again that conspiracy theories are slippery slopes and very true, very true. Very quickly, people, even the smartest people in the world can get caught up in the wrong thing. Read QAnon well said. So speaking of the, the art installation of the snow capped mountains to cover the infrastructure. One of the big things about the DIA or the Denver Airport is that they have this really great public art program where they are known for having a lot of art in their, in their, in their airport. Obviously it's being like involved in their infrastructure as well to make it look like mountains and pay an homage to the state. But this art program dedicates 1% of every construction project budget to art.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

So right now, I don't know actually about right now, I don't. The source I think was like 2 years old. But at the time, at east in the 2000 and 20s, there are usually around 40 installations in the airport to pay attention to.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And a lot of them have become these clues that people have run into, which, I mean, imagine being stuck in an airport and you just look at every mural and you're like, what does this one mean? What does this one mean? What does this. Oh my God. It's all makes sense.

[A]

Like we said, unless you're looking for a swastika, it's like, well, yeah, I guess you could start finding clues to whatever you wanted to. Yeah, yeah, I could see that. Especially with the art.

[B]

Well, the most famous art piece at the airport, which you probably know about.

[A]

Is Blucifer Yes, Lucifer.

[B]

So Blucifer is a piece that was originally called Mustang and it was by Luis Jimenez and he is now nicknamed Lucifer because he is this big ass blue horse. He's a £9,000 statue. He's 32ft tall, and he stands out front of the airport. So when you're driving in, you can see him from the highway. When you're flying away, he's on the Runway with you. And they call him Blue Fur because he honestly looks really scary.

[A]

He's like a huge blue horse.

[B]

And not only that, but if you.

[A]

Did we say it's a horse?

[B]

Yes, yes. And if you Google him, if you Google like an up close picture of him, he's not only just scary from far away, but he has like scars all over his face. He looks really demonic.

[A]

Aren't his testicles in it?

[B]

He does seem to have somewhat of a package.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even without trying, if he's 32ft tall, they're.

[A]

Yeah, I guess so.

[B]

You.

[A]

I guess, if you want to be anatomically correct, sure.

[B]

The thing that's the most demonic about Lucifer, though, is that he has neon glowing red eyes.

[A]

Like, I mean, that part.

[B]

So day or night, you can see at least eyes glowing from the airport.

[A]

Like, that's pretty weird, right, guys? That's pretty weird.

[B]

It's super weird. And one of the other reasons why he's called Lucifer, not just because he's this big fucking scary demonic horse looking thing, is because he killed his own creator.

[A]

I. Yes, that's right. I forgot about that.

[B]

So he was created by Louise Jimenez. And in 2006, when Louise was working on him, part of the head of Lucifer fell off, landed on him and severed an artery in his leg. And he died. Died. So.

[A]

Jesus Christ. That's so horrifying.

[B]

Louise's kids ended up finishing the statue in his honor, and it went to the airport two years later in 2008. But conspiracy theorists think that not only is he scary and demonic looking, he's got glowing red eyes. He killed his own creator. He. They now also think he obviously represents the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. And then the airport had to come out and go, no, he's an art piece and he represents Denver as a gateway to the American West. Like, he's a horse.

[A]

That feels like a PR spin, you know, the gateway to the Amer. What? Okay.

[B]

I guess because Colorado was.

[A]

Well, what about like Broncos? I thought it was Broncos.

[B]

You would call it, well, the Denver Broncos. Right. So maybe. That's awesome.

[A]

I thought they were like, oh, you know, we're the horse state.

[B]

I don't know. Maybe Broncos are also. Because it's a gateway to the American map, I guess.

[A]

I mean, a wild bronco. Yeah, I guess so. Rodeo style.

[B]

So. Yeah. And on top of that, by the way, the reason he's blue, because people seem to be. Think that that's part of the conspiracy. They're like, oh, the blue means something. Okay, relax. The blue is because Louise actually did have a horse named Blackjack, and Blackjack was a blue roan Appaloosa. And this horse, I guess, has black and white hairs that mix so well that it actually looks like a blue tint.

[A]

I literally thought you said a dog. It's a horse. He had a horse.

[B]

Horse, yes.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

He had a horse named Blackjack.

[A]

I think I heard dog in my head, and maybe I said dog now.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I don't know. I think it was just me.

[B]

So that's why he's blue. It's just because his own actual horse looked blue.

[A]

Oh, well, I mean, that's Makes sense.

[B]

Good reason.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the glowing red eyes, obviously, everyone's like, well, that's part.

[A]

I don't. I get stuck on that.

[B]

This is an homage to Louise or Louise's father. I'm not sure which one is it one of these?

[A]

Or, like, Luis? Like a. Sorry, the side. Side question.

[B]

Sorry, Louise. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[A]

No, no, I'm just making sure.

[B]

But the glowing red eyes are an homage to either him or his father, because when they were learning their own artistic skills, they worked at a neon shop. And so a neon shop, like, meant something to the family. So when they were finishing the piece.

[A]

They put glowing neon to put neon. I know. The eyes will beam out. I mean, it's kind of scary.

[B]

It's also because the red eyes have a second story to it, too, which is that Louise had his own horse, Blackjack. Luis was going home one day and looked in the windows of his own home and saw glowing red eyes. And when he walked in, Blackjack had somehow broken into the house.

[A]

Oh, okay. That's a great story.

[B]

It's a funny story. Yeah. Like, how did my horse get my.

[A]

Blue horse with red eyes? That's literally what he created, and it feels like he didn't. It almost is like that thing where you do something, but you don't realize, like, how crazy it sounds on the outside because it's so normal in your head. And he's. He's like, what do you mean? It's a blue horse? With red neon eyes. What's so weird about that?

[B]

I know. And honestly, his wife actually had a funny thing. Well, not funny, but, like, a poignant thing to say about it. Where when discussing Lucifer and Lucifer's red eyes, Louise's wife said the red eyes show, based on that story of blackjack breaking in. That sometimes things are only scary because you don't know what it is. Oh, that is because it's unfamiliar own. So despite all that, people are like, lucifer is cursed. He causes chaos at the airport. Meanwhile, it's like some. Some kids, like, help finish their dead dad's art project.

[A]

It's horrible. Like, in a. In a state of trauma, probably.

[B]

And officials have. Or airport officials at least, have come out and been like, no, he's, like, supposed to be, like, a protector of all the travelers coming from near and far, and he guards the airport gateway.

[A]

Or protector m. They have to make up their damn mind.

[B]

And he's not a bronco. Apparently, he's a mustang, so.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no. I really throw this up. I looked this up. So it's not a type of. A bronco is just like a. Hold on. I looked this up one time because I was like, what's the difference between a bronco and a mustang? Oh, yeah.

[B]

And an Appaloosa, which is. Who's actually based off of.

[A]

That's maybe why I thought you said dog. Because I think in my head, that's the type of dog, and I. It's like, not. It's an untamed horse. So it just could mean any type of horse. Horse. So he is.

[B]

Okay, so he's a bronco.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that makes sense, too. So that. And that adds to it. Perfect.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But anyway, people are like, he's obviously terrifying, but she does look terrifying.

[A]

He is terrifying, actively. And a horse in your house is also terrifying. So, like, I'm not saying it's not true. I'm just saying it's equally terrifying, which leads to.

[B]

One of the reasons why the Denver airport has, like, Is so creepy is because even though they have this, like, wonderful art program, most of the art they pick is really fucking weird.

[A]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[B]

Including Lucifer. Like, a demonic blue horse with glowing red eyes.

[A]

I mean, it's a wild choice. Yeah.

[B]

People are gonna have questions, gonna talk the names. You can't be surprised when people are like, wait a minute. What's going on? Another piece of weird art that they put in are gargoyles.

[A]

Oh, yes. Oh, my God.

[B]

So my favorite thing about this, because the guy is so quippy the artist's name is Terry Allen, and he titled this Art Pie Ultra Denver. Love that. And these gargoyles sit inside suitcases near baggage claim to watch over your bags.

[A]

I mean, it's very sweet. I love it.

[B]

It's very sweet.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Fun fact. They sit in Samsonite suitcases because the Samsonite factory was in Denver at the time.

[A]

Oh, I love that.

[B]

So another nod to Denver. Many see these gargoyles, and of course, because they don't have any information, they go, ah, dark, scary gargoyles. Okay. But gargoyles are meant to be protectors and watch over you.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so some take a totally different meaning with this. But literally, they're just supposed to watch your luggage come out of baggage claim. That's it. That's it. Here's the best part. One of the gargoyles, they came out with this marketing campaign. I'm going to get into the gargoyle. No, sorry, the airport. There's one woman who I'm going to.

[A]

Talk about later, studied PR in college. She.

[B]

There's this one woman who I'm gonna talk about later. Her name's Stacy. We love Stace. Oh, okay. She did a lot of PR campaigns, marketing ideas, and one of them was she had installed this other gargoyle named Greg. And Greg was an interactive gargoyle who talked back and forth with the guests. That's like, like, at a tree at Disney or whatever. Like one of those things, like, crush the turtle. Turtle. And so he would just say, oh.

[A]

Oh, my God. Sorry, I thought you crushed the turtle. Okay, I get it now.

[B]

Crush the turtle from.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was like an interactive gargoyle who would be like, oh, you with the blue suitcase. Blah, blah.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, my God. That's so freaky, by the way.

[B]

I know. So a lot of people thought it was too freaky.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And especially the people, I think, who already tie this airport to, like, satanic or dark stuff. They were like, now a gargoyle talks to us. Are you kidding?

[A]

Now there's, like, an active person watching us. Like, oh, look you in the blue suitcase. I mean, not that people aren't already watching everybody at the airport. Right. But. Yeah, it's weird.

[B]

I do get the idea of, like, oh, it's to, like, get you hyped up that you're, like, off your flight and you're gonna, like, hang out with everyone.

[A]

Or like. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But some people thought it was so demonic that Greg got shut down and is now just a. He's still an Animatronic. But he only says pre recorded phrases. Oh, but I like that they. They still had theirs at the end because the pre recordings are still hysterical.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[B]

One of them is welcome to Illuminati headquarters. I mean, Denver International Airport.

[A]

Okay. This is so good. They lean into it. See, this is the kind of up to Stacy's ahead of her time.

[B]

Man, I love Stacy. She also. He said something. Someone posted a tik tok of the gargoyle recently who said, you know how gargoyles are like squatting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The gargoyle just goes, oh, my knees.

[A]

Oh my. That was me going up the stairs today.

[B]

And then he says something else about like, someone make me a Tinder account. It's so lonely up here. Oh my God.

[A]

So they update it with stuff.

[B]

I guess so.

[A]

I guess maybe that was a while ago. But that's so funny.

[B]

Anyway, loved Greg the Gargoyle.

[A]

Imagine if you have an IMDb and being like the voice of Greg the Gargoyle. Like that must be such a.

[B]

That's on someone's resume for sure.

[A]

Award. Yeah. Esteemed accomplishment.

[B]

Well, so that's one piece. That's another art. So there's Lucifer, there's Greg the Gargoyle. There's gargoyles in general. So I think there's multiple gargoyles. But only Greg was the interactive one for a while. Then the other big thing, that's like the end of the world. This is obviously a sign of doomsday. Are there are some murals of these 40 installations?

[A]

Oh, yes, murals.

[B]

These. This artwork that is super popular with conspiracy theorists. There are two murals, both made by a guy named Leo Tanguma. And to be honest, when you look at it just like Lucifer, just like the gargoyle wheels, it's fucking weird looking. It's a weird mural, but it's just art. That also is supposed to be a conversation piece. So it has very like bright colors while having very disturbing images. So it like looks fun and draws you in. Then when you look at it, it's like actually really up.

[A]

What's. Sorry, what's it called is. Or I guess I can just search.

[B]

I'll tell you in a second. Oh, you will give you the name in a second. But to give you an idea, just so you know that you found the right mural, I guess when you Google it, some of the images that are disturbing in this, that have like bright colors and everything. There's a Nazi with a gas mask holding an assault rifle and a sword that's stabbing a bird.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

There's images of dying animals, kids in coffins. There's a letter from a kid from Auschwitz. Oh, my God. Firestorms. There's lots of destruction and chaos. And theorists claim that these murals obviously represent, like, a new world order or a plan for a takeover or something about, like, really scary power.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But in reality, the murals have other meanings, and they are warnings of what could come when it comes to injustices. Climate change, violence, war. So it's meant to scare you, to.

[A]

Have, like, a historic reminder. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yes. So I will tell you the names now. There's two murals. There's one, if you wanted to look it up, called the Children of the World Dream of Peace.

[A]

Okay. I definitely remember Googling this when I listened to Sinister Hood ages ago, and I was like, I can't believe, like, they were saying these things. And I was like, that can't be true. Like, there's no way. Okay. Got Children of the World. Oh. I mean, it looks. It really looks unassuming. Hold on.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, where's the guy?

[A]

Where's the scary guy guy?

[B]

So there's two pieces. So that's. That's one of the pieces.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then the other one is called In Peace and Harmony with Nature.

[A]

Oh, okay. Because I was like, I don't see anything scary, but I'm also very oblivious.

[B]

No, you're good. But that's kind of the point, too. It's like. It's just. It looks happy and unassuming, and then when you really pay attention to it.

[A]

It'S like, oh, yeah, what the hell?

[B]

And it looks also, when you first look at it, it's pretty trippy. I mean, the colors are really bright. There's a lot going on. There's a lot to look at. And so it does feels, like hallucinogenic almost.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. It looks very, like, trippy. Like a Beatles album art or something.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So one of them depicts war versus peace, and another one shows the contrast between environmental ruin versus environmental healing.

[A]

Oh, I see what's happening. Cause there's fires. Okay. Oh, my God.

[B]

So on top of all that, the movers.

[A]

They're very timely.

[B]

Yeah. Still. Yeah. Unfortunately, on top of that, the murals often are looked at the wrong way because I guess the murals have two sides to them. So, like. And I don't know if that was, like, a physical different side or, like, if it's just, like, literary, metaphorically. There's two sides to this. That's what I think is going on here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's Two sides to it. And people, I think, just see the really creepy shit and then they just forget that there might be, like, a meaning to that or like, there's a piece to it. And many just see chaotic, creepy murals and then misinterpret it from there.

[A]

Oh, Lord, this is. I mean, it's free. It is freaky, for sure.

[B]

And due to renovations, they have actually had to temporarily remove the murals. And then that caused its own.

[A]

I'm sure it did.

[B]

Because theorists then believe that the murals were put away because we knew too much and we were on to them.

[A]

And that they'll never figure it out.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And that the. The airport's new world order plan is now. Now they have to cover it up quick and hide it. But no, it's just temporarily in storage while they're doing renovations.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But there are other murals that have similar, like, tension behind them. I guess that's according to conspiracy theorists. There's like, one mural that suggests that it's proving that Flat Earth is true. There's another one that says that Covid was. Covid was planned by the Deep State. Yeah, there was another one.

[A]

There's an iud, I think. Am I crazy?

[B]

An IUD in this pink mural? Oh, I'm not looking at the mural right now.

[A]

I mean, it's like, really small, so I'm like, you probably wouldn't even see it, but I'm like, zooming in on the flowers, and one of them, like, very much looks like an iud, but I don't know.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

I could just read it.

[B]

Well, I wouldn't be surprised, but, like.

[A]

I guess that's how people end up reading into stuff. So what do I know?

[B]

Well, there's another art installment you'll be interested in. That was an over 20 foot tall statue of Anubis, the. The Egyptian God of death. Of course people read into that because, like, oh, now the God of death.

[A]

I mean, it's a wild choice for an airport again, but all of this is a wild choice for an airport.

[B]

They're making a wild choice. I don't think they get to go. Why are people so freaked out? Yeah.

[A]

Bold choice. Yes.

[B]

So far I haven't talked about a normal thing. I'll tell you.

[A]

I know. That's very true. That's very true.

[B]

But I will say, as for the two murals that I'm talking about right now, people have joked about the weirdness of the murals. They have also obviously gone as far as assuming doomsday conspiracy theories. But I just want to put this out there, because I haven't seen anyone else talking about this that the artist and his daughter who collaborated, I think, on some of the art, they have both been constantly harassed for their work.

[A]

Oh, geez.

[B]

People have sent them death threats. People have said things like, they wanted 911 to happen.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

People have said their art is evil. They've lost commissions because people thought they were, like, up to some nefarious thing with their art. Meanwhile, despite all the weirdness of their art. Yes, it is weird. We gotta give it. It's. It's odd looking when you first look at it and you're like, what the hell am I looking at?

[A]

It's that word. Provocative, you know.

[B]

Striking.

[A]

Yeah, it's very striking.

[B]

But at the end of the day, not just these two murals, but all pieces that Tanguma, Leo Tanguma has done, they were all about injustices in the world. So he's been making pieces like this since literal childhood in Texas. He made one about police brutality, which I think actually ruined his reputation in Texas. And he had to. He also made pieces multiple times in protest for civil rights. So he's like, on the right side of history, and he just wants to do something that's going to shock you. So that way you talk about it.

[A]

You know, it's like, very obviously, I mean, to me, okay, this is like. To say it's just obvious is not really fair. But, like, I'm looking at the image of the Nazi soldier with the. And it's like, very clear he's the villain of this art piece. And he stabbing the. A dove, like a symbol of peace. And it's like, I mean, obviously this is like a statement on society, you know, Society. Like, I. I don't know. I feel like it's not like, oh, wow, look, the Nazi has, like a halo and is the king of the world. Like, I don't know.

[B]

And everyone's kissing his feet. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

I mean, I think with an inch, an ounce, a splash of critical thinking or media literacy or anything of that. But people can look at that and go, this is obviously meant to invoke something.

[A]

Oh, my God, Em. A splash of media literacy. You are saying all sorts of, like, deeply smart things today.

[B]

You're welcome. But so anyway, I like, it's just. I think if you're. If you just think about what art is supposed to do, what's supposed to make you feel and disturb.

[A]

I mean, if the God of Death statue was there, that would be my. Like, that would be my main concern. If I Were getting on an airplane. Not like, oh, I will say this.

[B]

Airport has to be a nightmare for people with, like, anxiety and ocd for real reading into anything.

[A]

Because I'm just like, oh, my God. Then you start thinking about it, and you're like, now am I creating it?

[B]

Why is the last thing I saw a demonic horse and the statue of death, like, a God of death?

[A]

It feels like a bad sign.

[B]

Well, just to finish out my, like, little spiel promoting their art, I also want to say that in the murals, there are a lot of children in those murals. And the kids that he painted were not only his own family. They were young activists who died, and they were a bunch of kids who have passed away, and his. Their parents asked him to memorialize them in a painting.

[A]

Well, that's beautiful.

[B]

And not only that, but he. I guess they all came from different backgrounds, and so he asked about their cultures, and he was able, and these murals alone, to represent 70 different countries in the murals based on remarkable. What they're dressed in or whatever. So he made big efforts to be inclusive, which is also part of the art. Right. Is like, human connection will prevent these bad things from happening.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So I just wanted to give a shout out because a lot of people just immediately, especially the sources I was looking at, I was trying to look at everything from, like, you know, normal sites to, like, YouTube to TikTok to whatever, and everyone just goes, this is the craziest harbinger of doom. And it's like these people were just trying to say, like, there's injustice in the world, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's this, like, massive building that's fun, like, trying to promote, like, make a statement and promote local art or promote artists. I mean, it's just like, yeah, it's like a very.

[B]

To promote. To promote art of people who are, like, against police brutality and are fighting for human rights. And then now, like, now they're losing commissions because, like, they're too controversial, you know? So.

[A]

Yeah, and it's like, is that controversial to say, like, Nazis are not bringing peace?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So just wanted to give a shout out.

[A]

I see why people are like, yikes, there's a fucking Nazi on the wall of the airport. Yes, I do understand. I do.

[B]

It's just like, it's one of those things where I want to give both sides credit. Like, yeah, it is freaky. I would absolutely make a comment walking past it, and I'd go, why the. Is there a Nazi on this?

[A]

Well, I'd re. I'd Google it immediately and be like, am I imagining things? Yeah.

[B]

Yes. And on top of that, you think, well, there's a Nazi in this mural. The swastika and the aerial view. Like people can.

[A]

It's make the connections that they.

[B]

Yeah, yes, I appreciate that. The airport and like their art program, they're trying to do different original things, but it also like, gives so much fodder to, like, to add to the conspiracy theories, you know? So another one is that this is a wild one, but I really like it just because it's like someone I think just wanted to have an opinion, just shouted this one out and it stuck. In the movie the Close Encounters of the Third Kind, apparently aliens give humans a set of coordinates. Someone decided, these are obviously the coordinates of the Denver airport. Are they shockingly close? They're an hour from. Which is.

[A]

Because you said someone decided they were the coordinates. I was like, what do you mean they decided it? So they. But they like looked it up and.

[B]

They just looked up and I think they saw Colorado and they went, it's the Denver Airport.

[A]

Oh, I see. So they just decided it was close enough.

[B]

This. It's also. Some people think that these coordinates are. Were given to the architects by aliens so that way they could build the Denver airport, AKA their own extraterrestrial hub. And so for that reason, people now think that. That aliens are either stored or hidden or are controlling us or something. So it's like they're either in charge.

[A]

Or they're like prisoners. Nobody knows.

[B]

There's no in between. Maybe they store themselves. I don't know.

[A]

Maybe they're the ultra new baggage system that everyone's raving about.

[B]

Maybe they were shredding all the luggage. They're like, get out of my house.

[A]

Oh my God. This is where I live and rule and work also.

[B]

And stored.

[A]

I'm in prison. And stored.

[B]

But so because of the potential alien thing, I mean, it's so easy to add aliens to an airfield.

[A]

Totally. Especially when it's like billions of funding by the FAA. You're like, well, yeah.

[B]

And it's allegedly a 75 mile golf cart ride to an Air Force base. You know, but so because of this, a lot of people think that, well, Roswell is Area 51. This is obviously Area 52. So people call this Area 52.

[A]

Oh, okay, I see.

[B]

And it just justifies that aliens, sometimes people do the whole lizard people thing.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

That. That they all must be in those tunnels. And that's why nobody is. Is allowed down there.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[B]

Now this is where I also mention aliens in a different way. Because throughout the design of the airport there's a lot of quote, I'll say weird without knowledge inscriptions or engravings throughout the airport. Oh, I see a lot of people have decided that these, these quote odd or just different to you inscriptions are obviously alien language or secret society language.

[A]

It feels like so medieval when you present it that way because it's like, oh, we saw something we don't understand. It's extraterrestrial or it's Satan, you know, back in the day, like it's the.

[B]

Devil, but it's obviously demonic. Hieroglyphics. That's the way they would probably.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So some of these, I will butcher these. But some of the, the inscriptions are like besh dit guy does it dit guy nin n nanjini sis non ginny. Like it's like, it's, it's things that obviously are not English. And because Americans are scared of everything, the second it's not English, it must be satanic.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

And this is where I remind everybody, haha. Actually not demonic. This is literally indigenous language.

[A]

Woof. Yeah. I mean, come on guys.

[B]

Like so. And by the way, that takes a.

[A]

Quick Google, you know what I mean? That's like, that's what bothers me is like, it's like, okay, yeah, you can look at it and go, what could that possibly mean? But like then look it up and be like, oh, that's interesting. I mean, I mean if I saw.

[B]

A word I didn't know, I would just go, what does that say?

[A]

What is that? Yeah, I wouldn't be like, that's.

[B]

I think it's obvious. My first thought would be because I would assume we're in, in, in the United States, so it would be English. That'd be my first thought, which is ignorant, but that would be my first thought. And I'd go, did they misspell something or do I not know what that word is? That would just be my first thought. Apparently this is a Navajo language and they are different phrases that say things like white metal, which for I guess that language meant silver, the mountain that is white, AKA White Mountain. Tallow river, which is the Navajo name for part of the river near the airport. And then another one says a mountain sacred. Oh, I think it says like Mount Blocka, Mount Block, Blanca or Blanca Peak. And it's a mountain sacred to the Navajo people. So. But they, they have meaning. They just, people assume right, you know, the wrong thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And two words that are not Navajo, but also secret alien language are Braxma and Villareal, which are the names of the artists. So.

[A]

And those are like, not that, like.

[B]

They'Re not that weird. They're just not direct, like words you see all the time.

[A]

Yeah. Wow.

[B]

That's.

[A]

Wow. Okay. Yeah, that's a stretch. People are pushing it.

[B]

But because of that, people also say, oh, well, the reason that this place is so cursed and full of mysteries, because this was built on indigenous land, of course. They always.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Another example is that on the floor.

[A]

Somewhere in the airport, everything's cursed, by the way.

[B]

It's like, I know, it's like, like.

[A]

And by the way, it is so I don't know. It's like at the end of the day, what the fuck have we done?

[B]

Well, so another example is on the floor somewhere in the airport, there is an inscription that says AU and then ag.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like gold and silver. Oh. So, like, thank you.

[B]

That's exactly it.

[A]

Oh, I thought we were going to talk about, like, alchemy or something. And they were going to be like, oh, it's the Illuminati alchemy.

[B]

It's literally supposed to be gold and silver. Silver and gold for Colorado's mining history.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People, however, have taken this to mean AU AG is the Australian antigen.

[A]

Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay. I see what's happening. Okay.

[B]

And theorists say that these are hints that they have put throughout to let people know how the downfall of humanity will play out. Because the Illuminati and the Deep State are going to use the Australian antigen on people.

[A]

Thank you for letting us know.

[B]

By the way, like, really, like, isn't the point of biological warfare that I won't find surprise until it's too late?

[A]

Yeah, you're not supposed to warn me decades in advance. Ants.

[B]

Well, fun fact. The Australian antigen does exist. It's also an antigen. It's not.

[A]

Oh, interesting for you.

[B]

Apparently it helps diagnose and or treat hepatitis B. So I think we're fine. If the, if the Australian antigen comes.

[A]

Up, it doesn't see seem as sinister as maybe it, like, sounds.

[B]

Something that heals and treats. Okay, great. Plus, the inscription of AU and ag. I, I, I couldn't find evidence of this, but on one, on one site I looked at it, said that that inscription is actually part of a bigger piece. And the piece actually builds out this Native American design, this indigenous design.

[A]

So they're gonna go to Australia and bring back a hepatitis B vaccine. Thank you. You.

[B]

Thank you. I guess. Okay, so the last thing I'M gonna talk about is. There is also this dedication plaque where in. In the airport there is a time capsule that was put in.

[A]

Em loves a time capsule.

[B]

M or Em and Christine. Let's get it straight real quick.

[A]

Here's what I have to say.

[B]

What do you fix it?

[A]

I have. I have such. I have such an anxiety about time capsules because I'm like, I. I cannot wait to do this. Like, I. Not that. Not that I can't wait. Like, I'm excited. Like, I just, like, I label. It's an inability of mine to. To wait for something. Especially if you tell me it's like 20 years. Like, I love a time capsule. When I'm, like, opening it. That's all. I don't like the rest of it. I fucking hate it. Actually, it makes sense.

[B]

I want to find a time capsule in the walls of something and open it now. Yes.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. That's. That's like, my dream. I actually bought something a couple weeks ago that's supposed to help me find stuff in the walls. And then I was like, I need. I actually had to delete Amazon from my phone because I was like, this is really unhealthy how much I'm just, like, buying on Amazon. That is not. Not like I'm funding the whole new world order by purchasing stuff from Amazon that's just going to help me find treasures in the wall. And then I don't, like, find treasures in the wall anyway. I've had like, a kind of, in case no one can tell, like a mental breakdown over the last two months. But I'm fine now. I think.

[B]

You know what? And that's all we can hope for. So.

[A]

So anyway. So anyway, as I was saying. No, as I was saying, I'm fine.

[B]

Now, but I have a lot of anxiety.

[A]

Okay. Sorry. I love it. I love a time cap capsule at the end.

[B]

I understand. And unfortunately, you would have to wait a lot longer for this time capsule.

[A]

Because I can't abide by this. This is.

[B]

It opens in 2094.

[A]

See, like, I. I'm actually having, like, an existential crisis now because, like, I'll be dead and it's like, oh, then I'll never know. And it just makes me so crazy.

[B]

Okay, but to assuage your anxiety, here's what's inside.

[A]

Oh, thank God. Okay. Actually, this does really deeply assuage my anxiety. Thank you.

[B]

As far as we know, these are the things inside. I don't. I hate. I hate when they end with and other items.

[A]

That's not fair. Cuz you know that like the other items in there, something would be so much more interesting to us than whatever they listed.

[B]

Yeah, like shut up. Other items.

[A]

Let me decide what's interesting.

[B]

Tell me or don't. Which is it?

[A]

Yeah, which is it?

[B]

Give me half the list.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So inside is a Colorado flag. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There is airport opening day newspapers.

[A]

Well, that's.

[B]

There's a credit card, which these days actually is really a time capsule piece because no one really uses them anymore. Now that you got your tap to.

[A]

Pay, it's like, why did you think that this would not give me anxiety? And now you're like, hey, credit cards are absolute. And I'm like, wait, are they. I don't even know how to use Apple Pay Help.

[B]

So are the next thing coins?

[A]

That is the bane of my existence. Yeah.

[B]

There's also a baseball from Coors Field. There are Blackhawk casino tokens. And then there's the Denver mayor Wellington Web's sneakers from his sneaker political campaign campaign where he walked door to door while campaigning. And those sneakers are in the. The time capsule.

[A]

That feels like out of a book.

[B]

Michael Scott move. Here's my sneaker campaign. I'm just gonna walk door to door.

[A]

And then I'm gonna like, time capsule these for myself for 90 years down the road. Yeah.

[B]

Well, above the time capsule is a dedication plaque, and on the plaque is a symbol from the Freemason. So here we go. Oh, on top of. Not on top of the symbol, but additionally, there is the symbol on the plaque. And additionally, there is a line on the cat on the. On the plaque that says, by the New World Airport Commission. Okay. New World Order. It sounds like.

[A]

I mean, it sounds weird.

[B]

It's. It was a weird choice, but. So it says this is donated by the Freemasons or whatever and by the New World Airport Commission.

[A]

Okay, that is pretty weird.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the actual Freemasons did donate this.

[B]

Or pay for it or the Freemasons. It's confirmed that the Freemasons donated the plaque.

[A]

Oh, boy. Okay.

[B]

And then on the plaque it says, by the New World Airport Commission, which is a group that doesn't exist. Quote.

[A]

Yeah, that's weird.

[B]

So even though it doesn't exist, I will say that it existed for a moment. So a lot of people have conflated the two things with the same plaque with a time capsule in a creepy airport. Freemasons. New World Order. Boom. That's easy. I could see why people would get there. But the Freemasons are a legit charity organization that probably helped fund things to get the airport kicked off. And the Freemasons have two grand lodges in Colorado, so they are popular there.

[A]

And you know they love a time capsule. Come on.

[B]

You know they love a time capsule. And it is confirmed that they donated the plaque.

[A]

They probably invented the existence of a time capsule.

[B]

I. That makes me mad because I really, really am hoping that when time travel finds me, I will go back in time far enough to create the time capsule. I really don't want the.

[A]

So it hasn't happened yet, obviously, because we haven't, like, talked about how someday we'll do this episode and we'll be like, well, and m. Obviously inventor of the time capsule.

[B]

Yeah, that's the hope.

[A]

Maybe I should just say it now and then it'll just get out of the way, you know, for when.

[B]

I mean, I, I. Now it's the thing. Like, did it happen?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Future.

[A]

I hate time capsules. This is what I'm telling you, man.

[B]

Like, my last dying wish is to be a time traveler. It's not that hard. Like, let's get it together.

[A]

Please, God.

[B]

So, Freemasons confirmed. As for the New World Airport Commission, it did exist temporarily because it was the name of the organization that helped with opening events for the airport.

[A]

Oh, so it was a thing.

[B]

Okay, it was a thing. And it was established by like, small local businesses in the area that helped launch the airport or did promotions for the airport, or they were in charge of coming up with the event, like a time capsule event. They were just doing things to help.

[A]

And so Stacy's future job.

[B]

Yes, you got it. And it was. And so they called themselves the New World Airport Commission, which does sound still very shady. But the, the reason why it's named that is because the founder of this temporary group was in a symphony. He was in the Colorado Spring Symphony. And he named the organization after his favorite song, which happened to be called New World Symphony.

[A]

And that's a song. We did confirm that's a song.

[B]

It is a song.

[A]

Okay. It was once a song. It's no longer a song.

[B]

It's not often played on the radio.

[A]

Yeah, I know, I've never heard of it. That's weird.

[B]

But so, yeah, he was like, well, I'm a conductor in the symphony. Here's my favorite song. The New World Symphony. We're gonna call it the New World Airport Commission. And it also, I mean, what?

[A]

I call it the New World Symphony. Well, no, that doesn't make sense. Nevermind.

[B]

The song was already created elsewhere.

[A]

But yeah, I guess I Get it?

[B]

Unless the New World Order is that old, they created a symphony after themselves.

[A]

It was new. So long ago.

[B]

See, now we're. We're really getting off track for sure. So not only was it because the founder of this temporary group liked that song, but it was actually a good fit for an international airport, AKA New World Airport. Yeah, International World. And a lot of people said it was also fitting because as an international airport, it now offered access to the world. So was new.

[A]

New World. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

There's a lot of plays on the word world.

[A]

And it's new and improved and has baggage shredders. It's like just a hot new item.

[B]

Well, yeah, you're right, because before it was, there was an old airport here, and now there's a new international airport. State of the art New World Airport. So that even though there's a lot of good reasons, obviously, theories have still developed about the airport's true purpose and the name being a hint to that. And here's a weird one that's also. Also, like, ableist. Some have thought that the plaque and the braille next to the plaque so people with, like, vision needs can read the plaque. They think that it's a keypad to the time capsule and the.

[A]

Oh, my Lord.

[B]

Which, like, blind people weigh in, like, is that. Have you typed around on that thing and let me know?

[A]

Like, are you in the back rooms right now? Because your fingerprint access the. I mean, come on. I have such a headache. It's, like, killing me.

[B]

I mean, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I love a secret keypad. But the second you make it braille, who doesn't? How do you not feel a little icky about that?

[A]

Right?

[B]

Oh, God. Okay, so anyway, there's that fun fact. Now we're gonna talk about Stacy, and then I swear to God, I'm done.

[A]

I know you're good. Sorry that I'm holding my head. Like, I'm clutching my.

[B]

This is so long. But okay, so now we got Stacy. She is our grand finale. We love Stacy.

[A]

Yeah, we do.

[B]

Stacy, her name has. She has two different last names in different sources. So I think she changed her name.

[A]

She's, like, in San Diego.

[B]

That's exactly right. So we're just going to call her Stace. And she's in charge of the Denver airport's marketing. She loves the Lord. I think so. Yeah.

[A]

I thought you said, she loves the Lord. And I was like, you really put me in a corner here.

[B]

Thank you for.

[A]

Thank you for making me say I love Stacy three times. And Then going. Going, Stacy. The one thing you need to know about her is she loves the Lord.

[B]

I'm like, no, she loves the lore. Which is exactly how I. You know, I'm just gonna start kind of slurring my words around Christians, and that's what I'll say. But I love the lore.

[A]

I'm very familiar with the lore. Thank you.

[B]

I throw my hands up for the Lord. I love the Lord.

[A]

That hurts me.

[B]

And so anyway, she loves the Lord. Horror. And really leans into these campaigns. Like, I. Have you ever met someone who was just so meant for their own job? Because that's.

[A]

No, it's not you or me.

[B]

Okay? She's responsible, like I said, for Greg the gargoyle.

[A]

Yeah. Love that.

[B]

Love her immediately. Promotion immediately immediate. She also teamed up with Roswell's airport, and they are now officially supernatural sister airports.

[A]

Don't even start. That's hilarious. Hilarious.

[B]

And they both posted, like, announcements that they were sister airports.

[A]

It's like thinking outside the box quote.

[B]

With plans of extraterrestrial combat.

[A]

Just like, oh, my gosh. Wow. This is. Wow. They really do lean into it.

[B]

Another idea that did not pan out for Stacy because it was too expensive is that for the airport's 20th anniversary, she wanted to put crop circles all over the property so people could see them from the sky.

[A]

Okay, that's genius. Yes. Stacy, we just need a volunteer team of tractor riders.

[B]

Yeah, See, that's what I'm talking about. Call Tractor Bob. Farmer Bob.

[A]

Call Farmer Bob. We'll all get together.

[B]

And so in 2018, there were new renovations, and she decided she was going to do this PR campaign and put posters all over the airport, because during these renovations, it was going to be, like, difficult to navigate a lot of the airport. There was just heavy construction around. So you know how they put up those false walls?

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

She was like, we're gonna put posters on all those walls just to give people a chuckle. And they. All these posters are gonna be, like, the nefarious creatures people think we store here.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And they're gonna be talking about the rumors of the airport. So, for example, one of the posters had Lucifer on it with, like, lasers coming out of his red eyes. And the ad said, are we creating the world's greatest airport or preparing for the end of the world? And then another one had lizard people in construction gear because it was on a false wall for construction. And the lizard people said, apologies for the noise. It takes really big drills to get to the underworld.

[A]

Oh, my Lord. Oh, my Lord.

[B]

There was there Was another one with a gargoyle, maybe Gargoyle Greg in. In a TSA scanner. And he's asking streamline security or more secrets. And then there was another one. Literally. This isn't even a character. We just went with the conspiracy thing here. One of the posers had a cat and a tinfoil hat.

[A]

Oh, that's cute.

[B]

And one of them said, forgive the mess Building. Secret underground tunnels can get quite untidy.

[A]

Bless this mess. It's just the underworld. Don't worry about it.

[B]

And then there was a hashtag in all these posters that.

[A]

Oh, those were huge in 2018.

[B]

Oh, yeah, said Den Files. D n files instead of X files.

[A]

That's cute.

[B]

And then apparently some people. This is according to Stacey, some people got really upset about it and. And thought that they were making fun. Not only making fun of the conspiracy theorists, but hiding in plain sight because now they're getting away with it.

[A]

And I love that a thumbs up emoji just came up on your screen because you disagree with that so much.

[B]

Or it's like, we're getting away with it.

[A]

Yay, we've done it. Let's put another swastika on the building. And then no one will know that it was us the whole time.

[B]

You get it? See, the apple even was like, I'm not doing that. I'm not giving you.

[A]

Hey, we actually have, like, a fail safe where you say that and, like, we shut off all the. The graphics, honestly.

[B]

Round of applause, Apple.

[A]

Thank you, Apple. Wow.

[B]

So some people got very upset because they thought, like, they were getting mocked for their, like, original conspiracy theories and.

[A]

Wait, really? Okay, and then employees don't make fun of lizard people.

[B]

I know. Please.

[A]

They're people too.

[B]

Employees even made. Made, like, jokes because I guess there was like, a Weston hotel being built next to the airport, and employees got together with Stacy and they made alien shaped skulls to bury in the. In the construction zone in case they ever dig it up and they find aliens.

[A]

Wait, like they hid them there?

[B]

They hid them.

[A]

Yeah. Hysterical.

[B]

I will say I have to find the picture and send it to you. Is that the Denver airport they opened recently a voodoo donuts, which, if she.

[A]

Was very into that, if you're a.

[B]

Fan of voodoo donuts like I am, that's a big deal. And by the way, I will tell you with conf. With full, full confidence, it is Concourse B where the voodoo donuts is, because I have been there.

[A]

Well, why didn't you say that before? The apples. I don't care about the apples.

[B]

They're across the way from each other. It's in the food court.

[A]

Oh, my God. So now we've got a rivalry going? Well, no, because we love both, I guess.

[B]

I love. I got both last time I was there. But when it opened, and I don't know if it's still there, but when it opened, just to lean into the weirdness, they had this large blue alien statue outside of the shop, which I have a picture of. I remember thinking, what's this little alien doing?

[A]

So you've already started this. The. The lore that we're creating about this donut and chocolate shop.

[B]

Exactly. And Stacy has also hosted events now called Conspiracy Month, where every week there's a new conspiracy themed event at the airport. One of them was the Conspiracy Theories Uncovered art exhibit. Then there was. They offered art installation tours of all the murals that had conspiracy ties to it. Wow. Then they had a conspir costume party. And then they had a costume or. Sorry, they had a contest where the winner was going to get a behind the scenes tour of the underground tunnels.

[A]

What? They've never seen that guy again?

[B]

And he went away forever.

[A]

Yes, he just disappeared. Has nothing to do at the airport. But.

[B]

Oh, and that is the Denver airport.

[A]

That was really good. And it's not your fault. It was long. It took us 40 minutes to even start the episode. So that's not on you.

[B]

We got barking Christine. Every time I look at our website, I think, man, Christine, she really knew what she was up to.

[A]

That's right. I'm a. I'm a coder, I'm a hacker, I'm all sorts of cool things. Just kidding. It was Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs like us to stand out and succeed online. So whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content to your time, all in one place, all on your terms. Squarespace Payments is the easiest way to manage your payments in one place. With Squarespace, onboarding is fast and simple. You get started in a few clicks and start receiving payments right away. Plus, you give your customers more ways to pay with popular payment methods like Klarna, Ach Direct Debit in the US Apple Pay afterpay in the US And Canada, and Clear Pay in the uk. You'll also make sure to get discovered fast with Squarespace's integrated SEO tools. Every Squarespace website is optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions. You know, just like ours an auto generated sitemap and more. Didn't even know our website had that, but that's awesome. So you show up more often to more people in global search engine results.

[B]

Check out squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com drink to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[A]

So One of my 2025 goals is to add more protein to my diet. Every time I tell that to someone and they're like, me too. But it's so, so hard to find protein products that actually taste good. And that is until I found Orgain, which now Blaze and I both have.

[B]

Orgain is famous for their organization organic plant protein powder. It packs 21 grams of complete protein with all nine essential amino acids. And all organ products are made with USDA certified organic ingredients. So we are getting the nutrition that we know we need without the things that we try to avoid like soy ingredients, artificial sweeteners, flavors or preservatives.

[A]

And it's so simple. It's made so you can literally just add water and go. There's no more like prep. You don't need to mix and blend a whole thing. You can just toss it in. Or if you want to make something a little fanciful, some protein ice cream, something fun like that, you can do that. That too.

[B]

Plus they have protein bars, they have shakes, so they have all sorts of nutritional products. Organ has something that the whole family will love. And remember, there are no quick fixes when it comes to your health. But if you want to try more protein, you can give organic plant protein powder a try.

[A]

Head to orgain.com drink and use code drink for 30 off your order. That's the best offer you'll find. But you have to use our code drink for 30 off.

[B]

One last time for 30 off head to orgain.com drink and use our code drink. Welcome back from our by the way everybody. We just came from a break where we both did a lot of chatter and hopefully, hopefully there's gave m like.

[A]

The backstory of my whole friend like family friend's life for some reason I just, I don't know.

[B]

We. The, the chaos is, is still here so hopefully, hopefully it keeps up. Although Christine does have a habit of really bumming the crowd out. So let's, let's see if the chaos can, can reign over it. Yeah.

[A]

After watching CNN for an hour and then like starting my notes, it's really dark days over here.

[B]

Sounds like I'm the best part of your Day, Christine.

[A]

I mean, when are you not. You know what I'm saying? All right, this is the story of Robert Bob Samuels and the green Widow. And I wish it were like a fun comic book, but it's not.

[B]

Oh, I was gonna say. Ooh. But I guess not like green widow. Like. Like the black widow who kills her husbands.

[A]

Maybe green.

[B]

What makes her green? I wonder? Is she vegetarian? She.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

A vegan girl. We'll find out.

[A]

She loves the dollar bills.

[B]

Oh, okay. So, okay.

[A]

I mean, what vengeful wife who is doing it for the life insurance doesn't love the bills? So I feel like in our green.

[B]

It'S like, you know, the green widow actually sounds more honest than the black widow.

[A]

Yeah, you know what? It's probably a truer statement. That's right. Anyway, so on that note, here we go. By the way, there's a photo that goes along with the green widow term, but you'll get that later.

[B]

Excellent.

[A]

So let's tell the story. Bob Samuels was born in 1948. He grew up in California's San Fernando Valley, and friends say he was a kind and gentle soul. He was very shy, very introverted, and guess what? He had a crush on the girl next door. Her name was Mary Ellen Gurnick, and she lived down the street. And she was a little bit older than him, so he was super intimidated by her. And she was, like, really pretty and popular, and he had just the biggest crush on her. But unlike Bob, Mary Ellen was very outgoing. She liked to spend her time out and about. She went to dances. Like, boys always kind of gravitated toward her. So he was like, I'm not even. I don't stand a chance.

[B]

I'm not in her wheelhouse.

[A]

Exactly. So her friends even described her that way. Like, ah, she always got all the boys when we went out and stuff like that. And so he kind of had a crush on her for years, but never really cast her out. Instead, he hung out with his own friends, one of whom was called Judy McCoy. And she and Bob met when she was 11, and he had befriended her older brother. And over time, the family just took Bob in almost as their own. He basically considered this family, the McCoys, like a second family of his. And Judy herself also thought of Bob as just a genuinely kind, sincere person. When they grew up, they said he was always happy to help neighbors. He was just always, you know, if somebody needed, like, financial help, he would loan money. He's. He was just like that guy that people just felt safe around. And he Actually became a camera operator for Hollywood studios. Fun fact.

[B]

Fun.

[A]

I know. And he worked on 1980s hits, and he got pretty successful. Like, he did quite a few big productions. He did the whole Lethal Web. He worked the Lethal Weapon for Franchise and some other big names. And it's so funny. Let me pull up. I've been meaning to pull this up, like, all day, and I keep forgetting the. So I just watched Brittany Vaughn, who is a YouTuber that I'm only now discovering, but she covered this story, and she was. She's, like, clearly younger than us, and she was, like, saying all these 80s movies, and then she's like, I just said those because they sounded like what you would want to hear.

[B]

You know, honest girl.

[A]

Yeah, that. And I. Because I was also. Also like, I feel like I. And it's not because I'm young. It's because I just never watched the classic movies. But she could have said it in.

[B]

A way that hurts my feelings less.

[A]

No, it was fun. It was very funny. I was like, wow. Wow.

[B]

Like, you're right. My dad did love that movie.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Tell it like it is. So, you know, he had a reputation as just being very respectful, kind, generous, and just a hard worker in general. And in 1979, he goes to his high school reunion, and who does he see but a little Mary Ellen. And guess what, she's divorced.

[B]

Hello. Also, like, now he gets to do his whole little Hollywood spiel of like, am I in your wheelhouse now, girl?

[A]

Hey, 100. That's, like, the dream we all have, right? Like, going back and being like, oh, who, me?

[B]

Yeah, if you had to. Let's say you're. You're not with Blaze, you're divorced. You're going to, like, a singles mingle kind of thing. What's your one little flex you're gonna try to throw out and see if that gains interest?

[A]

Oh, my God. Oh, did they both just start barking.

[B]

At the same time?

[A]

They must hear each other, like, right. With their dog ears. Wait, I never thought about this. That we could create the world's worst echo chamber. Like podcast dogs. Like, it would just never stop. Right now. Now what do other people do?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Do people not have dog? I'm. Now I'm, like, spiraling. What the. Anytime you take a. Honestly, I wish, but no, I took a aspirin. Maybe I'm having. Having. Maybe I'm having an allergic reaction. Okay, sorry. So he goes to the high school reunion, right?

[B]

Oh, sorry. Wait, you're flex. You gotta tell me you're one flex. Sorry.

[A]

Yeah. What? Sorry. So this is to, like, pitch myself?

[B]

Yeah. Like, if someone, like, if you're actually trying to woo someone and they're like, what's an interesting fact about you? And if you give me an interesting enough one, I'll give you a little kissy.

[A]

Oh, my God. Oh, gosh. The pressure.

[B]

Okay, to be fair, I don't know what my answer is. I'm totally putting you on the spot.

[A]

No, that's. Okay. Well, that's more fun, because then we can both be on the spot. But I think, like, the time that Alexis dropped Chris Kris Jenner's omelette, and I had to, like, go explain it to her and ask for the new order of it. The new order. Oh, my God.

[B]

Christine.

[A]

The Den Files now on hbo. The. Linda. Linda's feather. Okay, sorry, I can't. I can't stop up myself. I think there was something in that aspirin.

[B]

It was. It was actually. What is it? That. That Australian antigen or whatever.

[A]

Oh, my God. It was a U. AG. Stupid. Okay. Anyway, I think I would say, like, oh, the time I had to, like, fix Kris Jenner a new omelette because Alexis dropped hers and. And she was just so kind about it, and I was like. That was just one of those moments where you're like, wow, I didn't expect that you would be, like, the nicest celebrity I ever interacted with. I. All people, I'm sure. So a lot of it is just. She's a smart marketing person. But.

[B]

But it worked.

[A]

It worked. And I don't know that would.

[B]

I mean, we're here now telling the masses of Kris Jenner's night.

[A]

That's right, Exactly. She was. She was very kind to two PAs who really up. So I don't know, what would yours be, though? Because I. I'm sure I'll come up with a better one later. Like, a more interesting one.

[B]

But in moments like this, because I. I have a hard time saying nice things about myself. I do. I know that's hard to believe, but.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

But when I. When I. When, like, I have no problem talking about myself, but then if it comes, like, actually, like, what's something you're proud of?

[A]

I always, like, step up and say it out loud. No. Yeah, that's. I mean, my thing was that. That I fucked something up. Like, it wasn't a good thing about me. It was that Kris Jenner was nice. Not that anything good happened because of me.

[B]

I learned from a. A while ago, from a friend that if you can't come up with a way to, like, be proud of yourself the way you should start a sentences. My friends would want me to tell you.

[A]

Oh, that's clever. That's really clever.

[B]

So my friends would want me to tell someone probably about the Stranger Things. Eggo waffle.

[A]

That's good. I would tell them about the carrot thing. So it depends on the audience. What is the carrot? The carrot. Cheetos.

[B]

See?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So props in general.

[A]

Yeah, props. Props. The other thing I was gonna say. Oh. If I started it with. My friends would want you to know it would be not good because it would be like, oh, she found Patrick Stump's home phone number one time, but he was on tour, so it forwarded to his aunt, and then she, like, hung up because she was too scared. And then the phone had been blocked. So I feel like no matter what I start the sentence with, it's like something bad that happened.

[B]

Like, as your friend, if you need a filler, just say, my friend who confirmed this would want you to know that I'm a fucking psycho.

[A]

Okay. Em sent me a TikTok the other day of a girl, like, laughing, laying in her ex's yard with a blanket on, pretending to be snow. And then she would, like, throw a snowball at his window and hide. And he would come to the window and she, like, propped up a phone to film it. And I was like. And because I knew. I know you would do this. And I didn't watch it for, like, a day because I was like, I'm gonna be like you. But it is very accurate. But I, like. Like I said I wouldn't do it to my ex. I would do it to someone, like, so random and insignificant. Like a teacher. Like somebody, like, really inappropriate, but, like.

[B]

Like postman.

[A]

Yeah, right. Because I'm, like, fixated for some reason. That's not like, even romance. It's just, like, unhinged behavior. Anyway, do you see a red face?

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Okay. I'm so sorry. I. Yeah, sorry.

[B]

He's so. He's about to do the whole. My friends would want me to tell you to marry Ellen or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, the Lethal. The Lethal Weapon franchise. And that probably really got her because within six months, they were married.

[B]

Damn. He knew exactly what to say.

[A]

Yeah. So he was not shy anymore. They got married. They moved into a house in an LA suburb, and he was just, like, totally smitten. I mean, it was like, oh, my lifelong love, you know, my crush is now back, and my life, it's just this huge Love story. And so.

[B]

Which is so lovely, by the way, because if I had to marry my high school sweetheart or the person I was crushing on, I would not have that same imagination.

[A]

I was even today thinking like, oh, thank God. God. I didn't. That didn't work out, you know?

[B]

Yeah, if I went to a school reading and I saw the person I was in love with, I would. We would maybe.

[A]

You know what you'd say? You'd say, oh, guess what? One time I got Patrick Sim's phone number. And you'd like, lie and just make yourself sound like a psycho. You're like, I know what drives people away. The things Christine does.

[B]

Exactly. Sorry, carry on. I keep interrupting you.

[A]

No, no. So anyway, so he. He tells her like all the right things, makes his move, and he's just smitten with her. They move into a house in an LA suburb. Now Mary Ellen, like I said, is divorced and she actually has a daughter named Nicole. And he was like, thrilled to have a stepdaughter now. He actually ended up legally adopting her and became her father. And it just was like his greatest joy. He loved being a dad. And Bob's professional and personal life were both going swimmingly for a few years. But then he and Mary Ellen started to clash over finances because remember, she liked the money.

[B]

Ms. Greenie.

[A]

Ms. Greenie. And so people close to them said Mary Ellen wanted this like, lavish lifestyle that he could not afford. I mean, he's successful, but he's not like, you know, running the Lethal Weapon franchise money, you know what I mean? He's just a successful dude, Average successful dude. And she loved spending money. It was like her favorite pastime. I mean, relatable in there. Yeah, I remember that time I bought something to look in the walls of my house for no reason and then had to. To like, have a talk. To talk to Jesus. What does it come to Jesus moment with myself?

[B]

I truly don't. I like, had to. I actively have to tell myself to not go on Etsy.com because that something will get purchased.

[A]

I have to delete all these apps. It's terrible. Anyway, so now with this Apple pay that you were telling me all about.

[B]

It'S like all I need is my face to face.

[A]

Like, oh, no. Yeah, that's really dangerous stuff. Okay, so Bob was like, let me give her a new hobby. How about I will buy a Subway sandwich franchise? And so he buys a Subway sandwich franchise and he's like, here you go. And like kind of lets her run it as like, here you can do this now as a hobby or something. I don't know.

[B]

Great hobby.

[A]

Yeah, I guess. And so she like took it over and wanted to like run it and make some money for herself, you know, and like be. So that was kind of the idea. And so she managed the place and they did obviously have some extra income from this and so that bolstered their finances. Finances a bit. But six years into their marriage, Bob got home to like, what this YouTuber I was talking about or somebody. Oh no, no, it was not the youtuber. She's too young for a reference like this. A Dear John letter on, on the counter. Basically, Mary Ellen told Bob, like, I'm, I'm out of here. Goodbye forever. And he was like, totally.

[B]

Oh my God. Like, I mean, can you imagine having your, the girl of your dreams in high school thinking you can never get her, then you finally do and then she goes, I don't like this. Oh.

[A]

And you adopt her daughter and you try to make it work. And, and it was, it was devastating. And so he literally tried everything. You know, he was determined to make it work. He agreed to a trial separation. Mary Ellen moved into a nearby condo with Nicole. They moved out and Bob paid for the condo. He paid for their living expenses. Like he just wanted, wanted her back so badly. And she just kept managing the sandwich shop. And they reportedly remained on friendly terms to co parent Nicole. But two years later, this would be two years into their separation. 1988, Mary Ellen and Nicole stopped by Bob's house to drop off the dog before a trip that they're taking. And they stopped by the house to drop the dog off. And when they got there, Bob didn't answer the door. So they bang on it for a while. And then eventually they let themselves in and Bob was laying on the floor dead at only 40 years old. And at this point, Nicole is 18. She is one of them calls 911, obviously. And Mary Ellen and 18 year old Nicole are both just like seemingly in total shock by this. They, they tell detectives like they don't think Bob has any enemies. They can't imagine who would want to hurt him. And Mary Ellen immediately agrees to a polygraph test and passes it. Her financial disagreements, she kept saying like that that wasn't even extreme for, for what like people were saying, you know, maybe it was a finances, but it just didn't seem extreme enough. There wasn't enough evidence.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so they quickly ruled her and Nicole out suspects and kind of didn't have many leads. So they started looking into basically every Corner of Bob's life. They spoke to friends, family, co workers.

[B]

The cast of Lethal Weapon.

[A]

Oh, man. You know, they had some stories to tell. They questioned all the employees at the Subway sandwich shop, hoping for a tip. They spoke to people in film who worked with him. And it turned out that the IRS had actually charged some of Bob's industry colleagues for crimes involving tax evasion. And Bob had agreed to testify against them at trial on behalf of the IR. Irs. And so a lot of people were pretty pissed at him, but at the same time, when they talked to those folks, they were like, well, yeah, we're pissed at him because he's kind of a jerk for doing that, but not, like, pissed enough to kill the guy, you know?

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And so the detectives were like, well, you know, it could be. This is clearly a personal, like, thing. Maybe. Maybe it was. Maybe it was. Well, maybe it was somebody who was just pissed off that he was going to testify against him. Them. Maybe they got out of hand. And the murder itself was very personal. He had been home alone, walking through the house in his underwear, of all things, which is like. I mean, talk about. It's like getting caught with your pants down. You know, that saying.

[B]

It's like, yeah.

[A]

I mean, Jesus Christ.

[B]

Like, actually.

[A]

Like, actually he's, like, walking around his underwear, and somebody just attacked him by basically hitting him over the head with a tubular. Like a metal tubular object. And they said most likely the barrel of a. A shotgun.

[B]

Oh, okay. Hitting someone with a gun is not the way I think would do you in. If a gun was part of the weapon.

[A]

And then putting a pillow over his face and shooting him multiple times through the pillow.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[A]

So it was basically to debilitate him, you know.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And. And then finish the job. And, I mean, at first, things were, like, a bit in disarray, so they thought maybe this is a burglar. But there was a. Like, one of the drawers was just there with $6,000 of cash in it, and nobody had touched it.

[B]

And it was so stuff, like a financial thing.

[A]

It doesn't feel like a robbery because they would have, like, found that most likely looking through drawers and stuff. And so just a little odd. There was also a glass sliding door that was 6 inches ajar where the killer probably entered. And, you know, after they knocked him to the ground, they used the pillow as sort of a makeshift silencer shot, shot him at close range. And there was no forensic evidence they could find. The only identiful identifiable fingerprints belonged to, like, people whose fingerprints expected to were expected to be there. Bob, Mary Allen, Nicole, other fingerprints. Some of them were partial and unusable. And they were like, we don't even know if this was just a house guest or, like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The killer. So the detectives only hope was to try and, like, make a connection in Bob's life that would reveal some sort. Sort of motive.

[B]

And. And by the way, how old is Nicole in this?

[A]

She's 18.

[B]

And she just walked in on this with her dad like that. Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So the tax situation, they were like, the police, the detectives were like, okay, this seems like a break, like, a good break in the case. But in the end, it just kind of was a run around, like a red herring. One of them had even left the country and, like, wasn't even in the picture when Bob vanished or. I'm sorry, when Bob was killed. Like, they weren't even around. Then Bob's friends reported another lead. Bob was actually dating a woman who was married.

[B]

Oh, that'll do it.

[A]

Yep. Turns out Bob and Mary Ellen had recently, like, officially decided to call their relationship off amidst their separation. And they had become pretty estranged over the past two years. And Bob was pretty lonely. And his childhood friend Judy, that I had mentioned earlier, whose family. Family, like, had became. Had become a second family to him. She introduced him to a friend who was in a similar situation and was also separated from her estranged husband. So it was sort of like, oh, you should meet my other divorcee friend, you know? Okay. Yeah. And so they started dating, and they just, you know, they needed companionship, and they got along really well. And so the two of them started dating. But she was not on good terms with her husband, who was reportedly pretty controlling and abusive. And Judy, his friend, said that this friend that she introduced him to used to have to ask her husband for permission to, like, meet up with Judy for coffee. Like, just very, hugely red flag abusive behavior. And so basically breaking free of her husband and then dating and sleeping with Bob and going to his house looked like a pretty strong motive for, like, an abuser who's controlling, you know, totally. And so investigators start looking into his background and discover he's a former police officer with domestic violence going complaints who owns at least one gun. And they're like, well, this seems like a good direction.

[B]

Not looking good.

[A]

Yeah, not looking good for him. Anyway, he worked as a security guard at a nightclub, and investigators went and spoke to his boss, and basically, based on Bob's estimated time of death, the suspect was definitely at work while Bob was killed. So there's just no way that this could have been him. That was another dead end. And they really didn't have much to go on. Um, they were, like, kind of at a loss. And months just passed. I think it was like five months passed, and the case started to cool. Mary Ellen and Cole tried to get back to their normal lives. They moved back into Bob's house, which is, like, where they had lived before this condo. And Mary Ellen put the sandwich shop up for sale and, you know, got the life insurance money as a payout to support her and Nicole. Now, Bob's case might have been doomed to a filing cabinet, but a call came into the homicide division from a man who said, I know everything.

[B]

My God.

[A]

He says, in fact, I know the person who killed him.

[B]

Can I guess? Can I guess?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

What? Like the guy who. The guy is who Deep Throat fella is.

[A]

That's what they call him.

[B]

Is he from Subway?

[A]

Is he from Subway where she worked?

[B]

Didn't she have, like, the franchise?

[A]

She is not. He's not from Subway.

[B]

Damn. I thought, like, maybe he had overheard her at work or something.

[A]

Oh, it's a good guess, though. It is a very good guess. But they did interview all the employees and stuff there, and nobody had any motive, so that was kind of a dead end. But basically, this guy calls and says, I know who. I know who killed him. And they say, okay, can you let me know? And he said, you gotta find this guy named Jim Bernstein. So they look into the sky. Jim Bernstein. Background research found that Jim had been charged on several drug related offenses. He was out of prison, so that was like a sign that this could be the right guy. And he had been dating a certain Nicole, who just so happened to be the daughter of a certain murder victim. So what a weird connection. And turns out this was one of Nicole's, a guy she had been seeing, Jim Bernstein, with quite a rap sheet. And so when detectives went to Mary Ellen and Nicole's house, they didn't tell Nicole that Jim was a suspect. They were like, oh, just do you know this guy? Like, have you heard of him? And she's like, oh, we just like, casually friends, you know. So they bring Jim and Mary Ellen in for questioning together, trying to get a picture of the connection between Jim and the family, the Samuels family, and a confession out of Jim. But Mary Ellen, like, didn't really say much. Jim was adamant he had nothing to do with this whole situation. And again, this was a tip, but it was an anonymous tip. It was just hearsay. At the end of the day, like, they couldn't really do anything, so they had to let Jim go. Mary Ellen went home.

[B]

Did they fingerprint him or anything?

[A]

Suddenly? Well, he'd already been in prison, so there's.

[B]

Oh, oh, oh, okay.

[A]

Then Jim disappeared.

[B]

Oh, he was a flight risk, you say?

[A]

Isn't that weird? So investigator investigators spoke to his boss, who said Jim hadn't been at work in days. His boss also said that Jim used to talk about boss Bob, the murder victim at work.

[B]

Oh, Jimmy, Jimmy.

[A]

Jim apparently despised Bob, and this was like an open secret to basically everybody. Like, he couldn't. He couldn't stop talking about it. He apparently hated Bob so much because he had heard that Bob abused his girlfriend Nicole, had sexually abused his girlfriend Nicole throughout her childhood.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And so he had this, like, vendetta against Bob. And Jim's boss said that Jim believed Bob deserved to be punished for what he had done to Nicole. But after supposedly killing Bob, Jim had lost his resolve. He was scared and remorseful. And the last time Jim and his boss spoke, Jim said he was going to go to the police and tell them everything.

[B]

Jimothy.

[A]

So if Jim had killed Bob in an attempt to protect and avenge a woman he cared about, it did line up with, like, how part personal the attack was. Yeah. And there were no police reports backing up this story of sexual abuse. And it wasn't mentioned in the divorce filings, which seemed odd. And it wasn't mentioned in any of the interrogations with Mary Ellen.

[B]

And Nicole's not saying anything about conversations.

[A]

Yeah. With. With Nicole and Marielle. And nobody said anything. But of course, like, sexual abuse often goes unreported, like, not that surprising of a thing. So that they, you know, wanted to ask Nicole directly, but that's too bad. She's in Cancun with her mom. And that's convenient.

[B]

What do they. How do you vacation after this?

[A]

They're just on a vacation in Cancun, and the weirdest thing happens, which is that suddenly during this trip and after Jim's disappearance, when he said to his boss, I'm going to tell the police everything, Jim winds up dead.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So It's June of 1989. Someone discovers his remains on a trail, and he had been exposed to the elements and only identifiable by his fingerprints. So they did take his fingerprints at some point, and now they knew that he had been strangled to death on this trail and been left there. So he had not been a. Well, he was probably a flight risk, but he had not fled. He had actually Been killed. And so Jim's brother, who was, like, really worried about his brother at the time because he was working. He knew he was working in these shady businesses, was always so afraid that he would be killed. And now that this had actually happened, his worst nightmare. He basically said, go talk to Dave. That's Jim's, like, buddy, if you want to know what happened the gym, you got to go talk to Dave. Dave. Turns out Dave was the anonymous caller, the tipster.

[B]

Interesting. So, wait, so hang on now.

[A]

I know. It's so complicated.

[B]

So Dave reported his brother for potential murder.

[A]

No, sorry. Jim's brother said, go talk to Dave. That's who you want to talk to, Jim. Jim and Dave were BFFs. Jim's brother. Sorry, Jim's killed, and then his brother is, like, his closest buddy is this guy Dave. Go talk to Dave.

[B]

Oh, oh, okay. Sorry. I'm piecing it together. Okay. Sorry.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Combined two people.

[A]

It's very confusing. And so then the police went to Dave, and turns out Dave was like, yeah, I'm the one who called you about Jib.

[B]

Yes. Okay. I combined the brother and Dave. The brother and the friend. So his. The friend was turning his. The friend Dave was turning his friend Jim in. In.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yep, Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. He said, yep. I'm the caller, the anonymous caller who reported Jim in the first place. And so according to him, Jim did not murder Bob for vigilante justice. He said Jim was hired to kill Bob by Mary Ellen. So he was a hitman. He said that Mary Ellen had actually hired Jim because she wanted ownership of the sandwich shop and Bob's 500, 000 life insurance policy. So when Mary Ellen and Nicole return from Mexico and are like, what's going on, guys? And they're like, things are getting a little fishy around here. They both clam up and refuse to speak to police. So they.

[B]

And, sorry, I keep interrupting you for clarification. So are we now under at an understanding that Jim was never dated, dating Nicole, and the whole story about Nicole was a. Was a cover up for Jim, so he didn't have to say he was a hitman.

[A]

Jim and Nicole were dating.

[B]

They were dating. He also happened to be the hitman.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Okay, got it.

[A]

Correct. And so they arrested Mary Ellen and because they believed this story that she had hired him and. And had known him, like, through Nicole, as. As her boyfriend, basically, as Nicole's boyfriend. So most of the evidence against her was witness testimony, and they didn't really have much physical evidence. So this was going to be kind of like an uphill kill battle. So Jim had made phone calls to Mary Ellen's house the night Bob was killed. But that could have been like, oh, he was in a relationship with Nicole. Maybe he just called to talk to her. So all the evidence they had was, like, a little bit flimsy. Mary Ellen also made multiple payments to Jim from the sandwich shop account, but she claimed he had been working there part time. So you sort of were onto it.

[B]

Oh, look at me go.

[A]

Except he. I don't think he ever actually did work there. She just said, oh, he would just take up a shift every now and then. That's why I was paying him out of the subway account.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

And it's also plausible, like, oh, he's dating my daughter. Like, they could write this off.

[B]

Like, there's a lot of ways he could weave in.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And so detectives also discovered a $6,000 payment to a woman named Anne Hambly. And this is Mary Ellen's friend, who also appeared in Jim's phone call records the days before he was killed, which is also very odd. And met with the police at her lawyer's office, which I love, of course.

[B]

She was like, before anything happens, she's.

[A]

Like, you come to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she secured complete immunity, which. Wow. She's just like, don't and handle. She's like, I'm not around here. She secured complete immunity in exchange for her testimony on Bob's and Jim's death. So she absolutely turned on her friend immediately.

[B]

This whole story is just, don't trust your friends because they're gonna turn you in.

[A]

I mean, honestly, you say a word and, like, things are gonna go south. Like, you just can't. You just can't say a thing. You're going to get.

[B]

If you ever do anything shady and end up getting an appointment at a lawyer's office, look out, girl.

[A]

Yeah, I'm in trouble. I know that already. So Anne was in debt with. To Mary Ellen, but Mary Ellen said she would forgive her debt, like her financial debt to her, if you could help me find someone to kill. Jim Bernstein basically told Anne, as close.

[B]

As we are, I'd still be nervous to say that sentence to you.

[A]

I would still not, not trust a single person to say that out loud.

[B]

And be like, there are inside thoughts inside.

[A]

There are inside thoughts. That's exactly right.

[B]

No matter how close you are to somebody, there's always at least one inside.

[A]

And we're podcasters, okay. So we don't really know much about Inside thoughts, but like that. Come on.

[B]

Our life is a yap, a thon. But there are still some things that you just don't say.

[A]

I know, right? And that is exactly right, because she is like, well, am I gonna be safe? They're like, yeah. And she's like, fine, I'll spill everything. So basically, she called me and wanted me to find someone to kill the hitman who murdered her husband. And it's like, wow, okay.

[B]

And what were Ann Hambley's credentials to do that, by the way? How was she supposed to find a murderer? And just.

[A]

I'll tell you, literally, she started seeking out potential hitman, hitman, wherever she could. She would go out with her friends and be like, does anyone know a hitman?

[B]

And Hambly, for a second, I thought she really had strategy as a. As a.

[A]

She's so savvy, but not, you know, it's like, she's so savvy. And then it's like, girl. What? Hold on.

[B]

And then also, like, are any of your friends gonna honestly say yes if they know one?

[A]

And again, you're yapping. You're yapping more and more to more people. What are you doing? Like, of course someone's gonna say, talk to Anne Hambly. She's asking me about hitmen for no reason.

[B]

Verbal trail.

[A]

I mean, just stupid, stupid. So she went out with friends and was like, hey, do you know anyone? And apparently, Anne, which. The. The. The Britney who I watch on YouTube was so funny about this. Anne's boyfriend was named Paul Gall. And it's like, she's like, why would his parents do that? Paul Gall, he recommended somebody as a hitman. He's like, I know a person. He recommends this guy, Daryl Edwards. So Paul is like, I'll help Paul Gall. Paul's like, hey, Anne, I know you have this debt, so I'll help. I'll help kill this hitman with my hitman. It's just, like, so crazy.

[B]

Honestly, Paul sounds like a real friend so far. He's like, like, I'm in it with you. Here's a hitman.

[A]

He's like, oh, I'm your boyfriend, so I guess I need to do this service for you. I'll find you. Yeah. So he finds his hitman, and he goes with the hitman to lure the other hitman, Jim, to lure him out on a drug run. Like, they're basically like, hey, Jim, can you come with us? Like, we're going on this, like, drug run. We need some backup, whatever. And apparently he was like, I don't really feel like it. And they were like, like, well, you have to come, like, because that's where we're gonna murder you. Come on. And so, yeah, awkward, because they talk him into it and he's basically in the passenger seat. They drive down this remote trail and they strangle him from behind the car seat. Like, just reach over and start strangling him. But he gets out. So he literally apparently starts screaming so loud that the driver, whoever. I don't know if it was Paul or Dr. Daryl, but one of them punched him. But by punching him, they punched the guy who was strangling him by mistake. So Jim got out of the car, he managed to escape, and he was like, running. And they ended up killing him out on the trail. And that's how they, like, ended up with his. And killing his. Killing him. And then they went and just dumped him on the side of, like, off a. On the side of a road. They. They threw his belongings over the edge of, like, a ravine and just left him there. Imagine being like to your girlfriend, like, oh, I'll take care of it.

[B]

Also, imagine, like, someone hearing us talk about this at lunch. Like, this is. Oh, yeah, I just heard. I just heard it in a moment where I was like, if I heard, I would. I would halt whatever conversation I was having if I overheard this. Oh, then they killed them at the ravine. I mean, every. I really gotta say, Christine, this story with. It's not even finished. It's one of my favorites because this is such a gossipy tale.

[A]

You're so right. Because it's like, what, Were they dating? Yeah, they actually were. But were they hitman? Yes.

[B]

Also that there's such a network of people who kind of have a boyfriend.

[A]

Of hitman all of a sudden.

[B]

How? How? I've never heard a story where there were two hitmen involved, like, killing other hitmen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, how do you find bizarre hitmen?

[A]

Well, you go out to lunch and you ask around, and then your boyfriend ends up being the one to know a hitman and is also a hitman of. Apparently. It's just like, what in the world? It's just so crazy. Like, it just seems absolutely convoluted. Like, so convoluted. So anyway, Both men accept second degree murder convictions and 15 years to life to testify against Mary Ellen. So everyone is just, like, abandoning Mary Ellen now because she's, like, pushed her luck, I think, a little too far.

[B]

Well, they're also like, so I'm being interrogated. You get to go to Cancun and pretend like, Nothing happened exactly like that.

[A]

She was never going to get away with that. Are you kidding?

[B]

No.

[A]

So, yeah. So she went to trial in 1994, in the spring, and the burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt was on the prosecution, who, of course had just witnessed testimony for the most part. Mary Ellen's friends testified that she had been talking about hiring a hitman to kill Bob for months before it happened. One friend later said she just didn't seem to care who heard her soliciting his murder. So, like, if is sound. Sounds like it, yeah. It's very reasonable. You could have heard this at lunch, you know, before she hired Jim. She even told friends she'd paid thousands of dollars to one man who failed to kill Bob. And she was like, really frustrated that the deal went. Fell through and that she lost all this money. And people were like, But I'm like, why didn't anyone say anything?

[B]

Why aren't your friends? I mean, like, was Bob just terrible? Like, nobody, nobody thought, wow, she's really serious. She's gonna kill him. We should do something.

[A]

Maybe they just didn't think it was real. I don't know. I can't wrap my mind around it.

[B]

I wonder if there was a group chat away from her where they were all like, is this like a joke? I don't get, like, did you guys. Was there an inside joke I missed last time?

[A]

Like, is this right?

[B]

Anyone else not awkward laughing? I feel out of the loop.

[A]

Yeah. Or like a little worried. Anyone want to send an anonymous tip in?

[B]

You gotta pull the Christine of like, I think I'm just a little confused.

[A]

I think I would just like you to please explain that to me for.

[B]

Like, I think I missed. Is. Is she's not really trying to kill him. Right.

[A]

But they're also gonna slide my phone. Can you say it a little louder? Into the speaker?

[B]

But then also, like, maybe her own friends were like, I couldn't possibly even ask that question because why would I think my friend would seriously kill her husband, you know?

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Maybe there's like a mental game there of, like, everyone tricked themselves out of asking.

[A]

I mean, there must be. And maybe she just didn't even know them well enough. Like, it wasn't a deep enough friendship where they were like, oh, she's serious, you know? And so basically it was discovered also that when Bob decided to officially divorce Mary Ellen two months before she was killed, he was unemployed and he wanted to keep the sandwich shop and wanted to pay, like, a lot less in spousal support because he couldn't afford more because she had like, spent so much of his money. And so Mary Ellen found out, like, I'm gonna lose this lifestyle if we get divorced. So how convenient. He died before the divorce was final. And she acquired the $500,000 life insurance. Insurance policy. So of course, the prosecution focused on portraying Mary Ellen as selfish and money hungry. Hence the green widow. She apparently took that $500,000. She purchased her new boyfriend a $50,000. I think it was a Cadillac.

[B]

How is anyone dating her not worried that they're next?

[A]

I mean, right. And it's like the 90s. So $50,000 for.

[B]

It's like this is a good buy.

[A]

Gift or something terrible is about to happen. And she SP spent nearly $200,000 on a home in Cancun because she wanted to move there. I wonder why. And one piece of evidence in particular turned a lot of people against her. And this was the photo that I need you to now Google, which is Mary Ellen Samuels. I. Well, I guess that wasn't her legal name, but Mary Ellen Samuel. Money. I guess just type in money.

[B]

Oh my God. Is it her lying in bed like that?

[A]

Yeah. So there's like this picture of her like covered in. It's. I think it's $20,000 of cash. And this photo basically was shown in court and the jury was like, what the.

[B]

What the hell's going on here?

[A]

Like, turned against her because of this. Because it just is like she basically. Yes. $20,000 in bills. And she's just like lying there in the bed. Like, is she naked? I don't remember.

[B]

She. You can't do the. I mean, it's hard to tell pretty much.

[A]

So she's like, basically like topless under the $20,000, laying in bed. And it's like they basically use that as kind of like a trump card. Like, oh, yeah, she wasn't doing it for the money, you know. And of course it's very sensational. Yeah. The investigate. Yeah. Bad luck look for sure. And the investigators believed, like this is exactly the. The vibe that they needed to get across. Like, just look at this picture and you'll understand. Oh my God. But Mary Ellen Nicole, of course, told a different story. They told this story that Bob was like this horrible, abusive guy. Mary Nicole testified on her mom's behalf and said like, Bob was hitting and. And raping her when she was 12 years old. And Nicole dispatch describe Bob like slapping her if she prepared the dog's food wrong, dumping ice on her head to wake her up. Like she was saying all this stuff about her dad. She said she kept the abuse secret as a child because she was afraid it would destroy her parents relationship. But she and Marielle and her mom were the only ones to ever like, have any of this kind of story. And it was only after the trial began. So it was like, why didn't you say that before? Before, right. When we were questioning you in relation to this. Like, I mean, I don't know, it's just a little bizarre. And Mary Ellen actually claimed that's why she was divorcing him. So it's like, well, that's weird. It's not in any of the paperwork, it's not in any of the reports. It's just a little strange. And one, one of Nicole's high school friends did testify that she had heard Nicole talking about this before the abuse. And the friend said that Nicole asked for help acquiring a gun because Bob was abusive and she wanted a gun. But Bob's family refused to believe this. They were like, there is literally no way in hell. And it's hard to say. It's like, of course, if this is someone you know in your family, like, yeah, you're, you know, it's like, of course I believe you. But also it's like, you know, you know, you never know with people.

[B]

I mean, yeah, like she could be telling the truth, but also like I can't imagine being in her position where she's like, like maybe she's like just as manipulative as her mom and like they were in cahoots boots with each other. But also it sounds like I would be worried like, oh my God, if she's willing to like kill her husband of six years, like maybe I need to act right and like look like I'm on her side so she doesn't.

[A]

Right. Well, I mean, yeah. Right. And it's, it could very well be like an extremely codependent relationship where she feels like she has to support her. Yeah. Or else she's in danger. Exactly.

[B]

So you don't even know if, if she, if that story is true or if she's just trying to protect her mom so it looks legit or you.

[A]

Know what, that's a really good point. Point. Yeah, that's a really good point. So with all that said, of course Bob's family was like that there's no way in hell. Like she, he and Nicole, he loved Nicole more than anything. And basically they were believed. They believed that Nicole would say anything because Mary Ellen, her mom, was up for the death penalty and they were like, she just is trying her best to defend her mom and throwing out what she can think of is what his family believed. I mean, Bob's sister Susan even said in an interview, after all, she's fighting for her mother's life. So it's like, wow. So whether the jury believed Bob was abusing Mary Ellen and Nicole, they did believe the many testimonies that Mary Ellen had spent months publicly soliciting hitmen to kill Bob. That was, like, pretty hard to dispute because literally everyone was like, oh, yeah, she told me that too. You know, it's like, not all these people are lying.

[B]

I don't think I. Maybe it's because, like, it's just. It's. I don't. I don't know how you think you are going to get away with it.

[A]

I think you're just so narcissistic that your view of the world is like, oh, well, I can get away with it because it's me, because I'm me. You know, like, some people just don't have.

[B]

My friends are so loyal. Why they would never say anything.

[A]

Like, why would they say anything against me? It's like, you're so delulu, so to speak, that you can't even, like, rationalize that other people would have a problem with that, you know? So she was sentenced to death.

[B]

Damn. Didn't see that coming.

[A]

No, I didn't either. I really didn't. She was found guilty, sentenced to death, and, like, as Nicole, I mean, that's so scary. But in 2019, her sentence was commuted to life without parole. The ruling found that Mary Ellen's sentence was largely influenced by, quote, bad character evidence, such as references to her drug use. She would, like, supply Nicole with alcohol when she was underage. Page. Like, just things that didn't seem relevant, but they were basically saying, like, oh, they're saying they. They smeared her character and it wasn't constitutional or whatever. It wasn't like it. Basically, they. They changed her sentence. She was no longer on death row. So the ruling stated that her defense counsel failed to follow the necessary channels to omit some of this irrelevant information. And perhaps it swayed the jury, even though it probably didn't, because it's, like, pretty obvious what happened, but whatever. So Mary Ellen had been. Has since been dubbed the Green Widow, which is a reference to the pile of cash covered in money. And, oh, you know what I didn't realize, which I had not seen before and literally just read in the notes that I've read three times. So I don't know how I Miss this. That was the money she had collected from Bob's life insurance policy.

[B]

Oh, that's bad.

[A]

I did not know that. And that makes sense.

[B]

Then why they were not very kind.

[A]

That really changes the game because I'm like, I watched that YouTube thing, and I watched, like, an actual, like, episode from the 90s, or I think it was from the 90s about this. It was snapped or. No, it was not the 90s. It was, like, from 06 or something. But it was an episode of Snapped on Oxygen. And, like, nobody mentioned that it was that money, which, I mean, now, I don't know. Maybe I just. Who knows?

[B]

But that totally makes sense why the jury was a little less sensitive. Yeah.

[A]

It's not like this was her in college and, like, she won big at the casino. You know what I mean? Because that, I feel like, is less. It's like, wow. So anyway, Nicole, for what it's worth, has never been charged for any involvement in her father's or Jim's deaths. But, yeah, so it turns out, Mary Ellen, she had her husband killed, then had her daughter's boyfriend killed because he was involved.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Wow. Talk about drama.

[B]

Talk about drama. And how old is Nicole today?

[A]

You know, I don't actually know. I just literally closed my notes, so that's fine.

[B]

But. But I mean, still, like, I can't imagine going through all that, walking in on your dad dead at. At 18.

[A]

But then first of all, six years before that. But a lot of people say she was involved, that it was her, like, her boyfriend. She was like, I know somebody. I mean, apparently everybody in this story knows a hitman. Openly.

[B]

Apparently. So, like, what town are they in?

[A]

San Fernando Valley. Like, next to you, next door. Okay, be careful. People out there.

[B]

No, but I mean, I mean, even. Even still, like, to see that at 18, just because maybe.

[A]

Of course, maybe she was involved or not. It's deeply traumatic. And, like, who knows if. Even if she was involved, like, who knows if this was just. I mean, she's 18. She'd been literally even there before that.

[B]

Even if she was involved, maybe she didn't know. Like, oh, my. My own mom's gonna walk me right into seeing him without a face. Like, Right.

[A]

Oh, my God. Like, maybe this is manipulation. Who knows? So.

[B]

Because maybe it was like, oh, yeah, something's gonna happen. He's not gonna be with us for much longer. And then.

[A]

Horrible. It's horrible. Now her mom, prison for life. It's like, now you lose both parents. I mean, it's just devastating.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's just really tragic and just very topsy turvy. I. I'm telling you, that's why I read the notes three times. Clearly, I still missed something. But I also watched several things on it because I was like, I. My brain is so confused with the hitman and the brother and the everyone's boyfriend's a hitman. And I'm like, who's not a hitman in this story? Like, it. If I watch is on whatever Lifetime. I don't know. I don't know any of these channels. I'd be like, that's not realistic at all.

[B]

I'd be like, okay, we need to, like, stop hiring people from, like, Lifetime.

[A]

Like, right? It's like, like, make it believable, right? It's like, even Mad Men's more believable than this. Come on. You know, it's like, wow. But anyway, so I have a podcast discussion date with a neighbor friend of mine, so we might have to do the yap happy hour at a separate time, if that's okay. But I also already have some ideas for it, because when I was sitting here, I was like, oh, my gosh. I've got my mugwort pillow. I've got Letitia Lemon. I have so many show and tells.

[B]

Well, we're recording our listeners episode on Friday. We can do it after that.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

Poi. Fect. Great. Well, that was a great story, Christine. Well done. And sorry to everyone for this two and a half hour episode. But you know what? If that's what you like, that's what you like. I hope you're happy. Having a great road trip.

[A]

I think I just knew I needed to be in bed because it would be three hours, and I was like, I need to stay seated. Yeah, yeah. Horizontal.

[B]

Oh, God, I hear this dog about to bark, so maybe we should go.

[A]

That's bulk.

[B]

All right, thank you, everybody, and hope to see you next week. I don't know why I wouldn't. Why did I say that? Goodbye.

[A]

And I hope to see you next week also. That's why we drink. Oh, God.