E418 A Labrador Retriever’s Decorating Sensibilities and a Barbed Wire Knitting Circle

Summary

Podcast Title: And That's Why We Drink
Hosts: Christine Schieffer & Em Schulz
Episode: E418 A Labrador Retriever’s Decorating Sensibilities and a Barbed Wire Knitting Circle
Release Date: February 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

In Episode 418 of "And That's Why We Drink," hosts Christine Schieffer and Em Schulz delve deep into a chilling blend of true crime and paranormal phenomena, unraveling the enigmatic case of the Guyra Ghost in Australia and exploring the tragic tale of Patsy Rice in Texas. This episode masterfully intertwines historical mysteries with engaging personal anecdotes, providing listeners with a captivating narrative that is both spooky and thought-provoking.

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The Guyra Ghost Mystery

Setting the Stage ([40:24] - [44:20])

Christine introduces listeners to Guyra, a quaint town in New South Wales, Australia, renowned for its annual Lamb and Potato Festival. However, beneath its serene facade, Guyra became the epicenter of a terrifying poltergeist 사건 in 1921. The Bowen family—comprising William, Catherine, and their three children—began experiencing unexplained phenomena shortly after the mysterious disappearance of Mrs. Doran, a local woman last seen holding two potatoes as she vanished into the distance ([40:54]).

Escalation of Paranormal Activity ([44:20] - [50:04])

As rumors of possible abductions circulated, fear gripped the town, leading many women to sleep armed under their pillows ([45:06]). Amidst this tension, the Bowen household became the target of relentless poltergeist activity. Strange noises evolved into actual rocks hurled at their home, shattering windows and escalating the terror ([46:24]). Neighbors, alarmed by the constant disturbances, established a 24/7 surveillance around the Bowen residence, further amplifying the communal hysteria ([54:20]).

Interactions with the Paranormal ([50:04] - [57:08])

Desperate for answers, the family sought the expertise of Ben Davies, a self-proclaimed "student of spiritualism." During a séance, their 12-year-old daughter, Minnie, claimed to communicate with her deceased sister, May, delivering a cryptic message for their mother: "I am in heaven and quite happy. Tell her it was her prayers which got me here. I will look after her for the rest of her life" ([62:24]).

Despite these supernatural interventions, the rock-throwing persisted, leading to confusion and frustration. The local constable, overwhelmed by the ongoing disturbances and the swelling number of citizens involved in the investigation, struggled to maintain order ([70:29]).

Unraveling the Mystery ([57:08] - [86:22])

The narrative takes a twist as Christine and Em explore the possibility that Minnie herself might be behind the disturbances, either subconsciously or intentionally, to gain attention or cope with her grief over her sister's death ([80:04]). However, the true culprit remains elusive, leaving the case perpetually unsolved and casting a long shadow over Guyra's history.

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The Tragic Tale of Patsy Rice

Introduction to Patsy’s Life ([86:22] - [91:07])

Transitioning from Australia to Texas, the hosts introduce Patsy Rice (Patricia Wright), born on February 24, 1944, into a wealthy family with a passion for history and wax museums. Her father, Thomas Bolton, an oil and gas magnate, established a successful wax museum showcasing historical figures and celebrities ([90:10]).

Personal Struggles and Tragic Death ([91:07] - [113:05])

Patsy's life was marked by personal turmoil, including two divorces and a strained relationship with her second ex-husband, Bob Cox. Despite her professional success, Patsy faced challenges balancing her business ambitions with her personal life. In late October 1987, after hosting a successful Halloween event at the museum, Patsy tragically died from strychnine poisoning. Initial confusion arose as she had called her sister, Sally, claiming severe illness due to cold medicine ([113:18]).

Investigation and Suspicion ([113:05] - [121:15])

Autopsy results revealed lethal strychnine levels in Patsy's system, indicating foul play. Suspicion fell on those close to her, particularly Bob Cox, who had motives rooted in financial disputes and past harassment. Despite strong suspicion, insufficient evidence prevented any arrests, leaving Patsy's murder unresolved. Adding to the mystery, months later, Thomas Bolton's wax museum mysteriously burned down, fueling further speculation about Cox's involvement ([117:04]).

Legacy and Continuing Mystery ([121:15] - [128:41])

The episode concludes by highlighting the enduring legacy of Patsy Rice and the unanswered questions surrounding her death. Her children, Wayne and Leslie, continue to memorialize her online, sharing stories that keep her memory alive. Despite the tragic events, the true perpetrator behind Patsy's murder remains unknown, leaving listeners to ponder the depths of human motives and the lingering shadows of unresolved crimes.

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Notable Quotes

• Christine Schieffer ([46:50]): "I don't know if it was Minnie at the end of this hall because this ghost still kept pelting her family with rocks, you know?"

• Em Schulz ([56:18]): "But it's the..." [The timestamp appears incomplete, but Em discusses the shifting sources and theories about Minnie’s involvement.]

• Christine Schieffer ([73:08]): "You have one chance to speak from the afterlife and you, like, say something grammatically incorrect, or you flip the words and you're like, wait, wait, wait."

• Em Schulz ([107:50]): "It’s like a monster among us. It's like, who am I? Who am I keeping in touch with?"

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Conclusion

Episode 418 of "And That's Why We Drink" offers a compelling exploration of paranormal activity intertwined with true crime, presenting listeners with enigmatic cases that challenge the boundaries between the natural and supernatural. Through meticulous research and engaging storytelling, Christine and Em shed light on the mysterious events of the Guyra Ghost and the untimely death of Patsy Rice, leaving audiences both intrigued and unsettled.

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Note: This summary focuses on the core content of the episode, highlighting the main discussions and excluding advertisements, intros, and non-content sections as per the instructions.

Transcript

[Christine Schieffer]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities.

[Em McElhinney]

So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you.

[Christine Schieffer]

To Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do.

[Em McElhinney]

@Mintmobile.Com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra default [e-mail].

[Christine Schieffer]

In the mood for something crunchy, saucy and boneless? Try Jack's new crispy boneless wings from Jack in the Box. Get them with honey garlic sriracha or smokeshow smoky barbecue sauce. Enjoy so much more.

[Em McElhinney]

Also, you thought you were gonna say insane, but in sync also works.

[Christine Schieffer]

No, insane's normal. The, the NSYNC part is, is less often. What is yours? And then that's why I drink.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, of course.

[Christine Schieffer]

Beautiful.

[Em McElhinney]

It's the one. Oh, folks, this is an Easter egg, I guess, or like a secret, secret message. If you bought this on tour, this sweatshirt, which is, it's a, it's a light blue, gray and white tie dye with our on the rocks logo on it. And if you bought this, please know it was actually a manufacturer error and it's printed inside out. And we didn't intentionally make it a fuzzy sweatshirt. The lining of the sweatshirt just somehow ended up on the outside. And we got them kind of for fun because we thought, oh God. Well, actually we got them because we wanted to make sure they weren't going to like fall apart immediately. And we wanted to, for the first time ever, actually quality control something, not just get it for free like usual. So we like all wore them and put them in the wash and they stood the test of time. And for some reason, even though the fuzzy parts on the outside, it's like the coziest sweatshirt I own.

[Christine Schieffer]

And I don't know how to ask them to up again because I know that's a big problem.

[Em McElhinney]

You're so right.

[Christine Schieffer]

Anytime someone has ever asked, like, we have had a few people at book signings like come up to us and say like, that's the best sweatshirt in the world. What is this? It's like it was an upset, it was a whoopsie daisy.

[Em McElhinney]

I, I remember everybody was wearing it and I was like, am I high or. Well, I mean, don't answer that. But like, why on earth I Think you.

[Christine Schieffer]

I think you were high when you realized it was inside out for the first time.

[Em McElhinney]

I'm sure I was. That's why my brain was so on point. And Eva was like, no, I don't think so. And I was like, eva, you're literally like, feel your arm, your fucking.

[Christine Schieffer]

And also feel the inside. The inside feels like an outside material anyway.

[Em McElhinney]

It's. So. If you got your hands on one of these. I've seen a couple in the wild, and I always tell them, like, that's a manufacturer error. It'll probably never happen again.

[Christine Schieffer]

Limited run.

[Em McElhinney]

I know. I don't know if we have any left, but it's my favorite. Anyway. Sorry, but we're wearing matching tie dye today, which never happens. I rarely ever.

[Christine Schieffer]

I will say you're wearing the tour sweatshirt, but I got this shirt on tour.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay. What's. What is it? I like the color combo.

[Christine Schieffer]

It makes no sense for me.

[Em McElhinney]

It looks like somebody's high. I just saw, like, one eye. Oh, oh, oh.

[Christine Schieffer]

It's literally called high tide. And it's.

[Em McElhinney]

What is it? It's a high underneath high tide.

[Christine Schieffer]

Portsmouth, which is where we had our show.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, New Hampshire.

[Christine Schieffer]

It's a boat. That's stony baloney. A high tide.

[Em McElhinney]

He's like, tug, tug, tug. Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. I don't. I don't know why I wanted this so bad.

[Em McElhinney]

Is that like a brewer or something?

[Christine Schieffer]

I have no fucking clue. I didn't. I don't know.

[Em McElhinney]

I don't know why I'm asking so many questions, interrogating you.

[Christine Schieffer]

I. I was just walking through Portsmouth, and I was going into, like, every tchotchke shop, and this T shirt just spoke to me, and it's weirdly comfy. Like, it's.

[Em McElhinney]

Is it a boat? I forget already. Or is it a train? Because I kept saying, like, chug, chug, tug, tugboat, tugboat. Not a choo choo train. Okay. That's a boat. Yes. I can't tell. It kind of has wheels on. Oh, I thought those were wheels. Those are just life vests or life.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. Buoys or something.

[Em McElhinney]

I don't think any of the words we said were the right one, but you guys know what we mean. Lifesavers.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yes, Lifesavers for sure. Yeah, I get it. I know what you're saying, but that's what they're called.

[Em McElhinney]

That's why that candy's called.

[Christine Schieffer]

That makes sense. When I was a kid, my mom threw me a pool party, and she made probably one of the best cakes I've ever seen. And it was out of blue jello with graham cracker crust. Like, look like a pool and, like a sandwich.

[Em McElhinney]

I made one of those for my.

[Christine Schieffer]

Sister once and put the lifesavers in with little people. Yeah, I put.

[Em McElhinney]

I used Teddy. Teddy Grahams. And I made little. Like a beach out of graham crackers and little umbrellas.

[Christine Schieffer]

Seems to be a canon event.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, that was really a good year for cake baking, you know?

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, that was the last time before. And then you submitted yourself to nailed it, so it went back.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, I did. And then Covid hit, and I never really found out if just Nicole Byer wants nothing to do with me or if it was just delayed because of.

[Christine Schieffer]

COVID So you can't always say, weren't we, like, up against her in the Webbies? Like, maybe that's why. Maybe you just.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, I've got a mark. Yeah, I've got a mark. That's dangerous.

[Christine Schieffer]

I'm just saying you're on a hit list somewhere.

[Em McElhinney]

I guess every trophy we get just adds us to somebody. We're public enemy number one.

[Christine Schieffer]

She's just, you know. You know, you could go un. Nailed it. And then if you suck there, you can go. You know what, Nicole Byer? I beat you at the Webbies. Whoops.

[Em McElhinney]

So now we're in. What if I just bring the webby to the baking competition? And what if you made your cake.

[Christine Schieffer]

Look like a webby in the spring?

[Em McElhinney]

It just fell off. This is. This is.

[Christine Schieffer]

This is the webby I beat you at, actually.

[Em McElhinney]

Me rubbing in your face.

[Christine Schieffer]

It's so mean.

[Em McElhinney]

I don't know why I'm getting so defensive. Nicole Byer has no clue who I am.

[Christine Schieffer]

She's lovely. Well, I've never met her before, and I adore.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to keep my mouth shut now. Maybe I'll sign you up for Wipeout, and then we can both watch each other fail on tv.

[Christine Schieffer]

What's Wipeout? That sounds like something that happens just in my house all the time.

[Em McElhinney]

Wait, you've never seen Wipeout? Dude, Google Wipeout TV show right now. This is. Oh, you're about to be in for a treat.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, I have always wanted to do this. That's. That looks very fun.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, but it doesn't when you watch it, because they. People just. Oh, it looks painful. Painful.

[Christine Schieffer]

For a while I watched American Ninja Warrior, and.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, yeah, I worked on that show. Usually you get to say that. Now I get to say that for once in my life.

[Christine Schieffer]

How was.

[Em McElhinney]

Was so effing hot. We had to sit downtown in LA, like 110 degree heat. And it took like 12 hours and they just kept restarting and there was like a live audience and you weren't allowed to leave once you got there, forget it. Like, people started fainting, so we had to go. I had to order water, but it was like pre doordash, so I was like trying to call places to like deliver bottles of water because nobody thought that the outside audience would need water and people were fainting anyway. It was, you know, they never.

[Christine Schieffer]

One thing that TV does not translate well for others is like what the temperature is when people are out there.

[Em McElhinney]

Doing something, like on purpose. M. Because people I know. Oh my God.

[Christine Schieffer]

It didn't even occur to me that on top of trying to be an American athlete in general outdoors.

[Em McElhinney]

No, you're totally right.

[Christine Schieffer]

Then it's 100 degrees.

[Em McElhinney]

I forgot, I forgot about the people in it. I was just talking about the audience and me and then I was like, wait a minute. There's people actually doing feats of physical strength.

[Christine Schieffer]

Imagine even like trying to grab like metal bars and it's hot as shit outside.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh well, they got special like covers for the whole thing. Don't worry, they were climate controlled. This was television for. They were the stars of the show. They were the, the. Yeah, they were the artists. I was the mere anxious lady on the phone going, please, do you have.

[Christine Schieffer]

Water to bring me? Well, I feel like at some point we started with, why do I drink? And I don't.

[Em McElhinney]

Why do you drink? And then I immediately cut myself off and said, we're wearing matching shirts. And then that's where we stopped. Sorry, I.

[Christine Schieffer]

No, I. I drink because I feel like I say this like once every quarter, but I'm having to do my spring cleaning, which is never in spring. It's. It's pretty much every other month I have to do some sort of spring cleaning on my closet because I just cannot stop myself from buying a million shirts and sweatshirts. So now that I'm back home, I feel like I have to weed through things again. So that's. I just don't want to have to do the putting on taking off thing with all my stuff. But you inspired me because you were the one who said recently that you like cleared all your shit out. And now I'm like, ah, I should be able to.

[Em McElhinney]

I cleared about 5% and it. And it's bad here, folks.

[Christine Schieffer]

Really? I thought you sounded like you were like really like thrilled with how it came out.

[Em McElhinney]

No, I was. We got rid of probably like 40 boxes of stuff. And I still.

[Christine Schieffer]

That's 5%.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, Christine.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, I'm not kidding. I.

[Christine Schieffer]

Did I help with the other 95?

[Em McElhinney]

I would love to help. No. If you show up and help, fine. But I'm on a very, very full speed ahead. I can't wait any longer for this because I'm like, I need to get out of here. I have stuff from when I was in 10th grade, and I drew it and I thought it was funny, and I took it to every house I've lived at. I don't know why. I just have, like, had.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, that's not weird to me, though.

[Em McElhinney]

I mean, I look, but I have everything. Everything. Like, I have, like, everything I've ever owned. Like, I can't not. It's like. It's like I. I get attached to things, and then I'm like, well, what if I need it? And then I. I've really struggled with throwing. With, like, recycling stuff versus throwing stuff out. And then I'm like, I don't want to put this in a landfill. And then it just is a land. And the biggest help that. That I heard from a YouTube video was it's. It's already in a landfill. The landfill is just your house. Like, putting it in a landfill.

[Christine Schieffer]

Great.

[Em McElhinney]

And putting it in your house to. To collect dust, you know, it's not helping anyone, and it's hurting you. And I was like, whoa. So I've been working on it, but it's a very. It's a big. It's an uphill battle.

[Christine Schieffer]

I. I feel like kind of a piece of. Because my. I have three big. I keep. I always call them Tupperwares, but I always get made fun of for that. I don't know. Yeah, sure. I also used to call them conticos for a while, because that was, like, one of the brands that we had.

[Em McElhinney]

I'm, by the way, drinking this. It's a. It's a liquid death sparkling, so I'm gonna crack. Crack into it just before anyone is wondering.

[Christine Schieffer]

That sounded nice.

[Em McElhinney]

All right.

[Christine Schieffer]

I'm so jealous of you. I wanted to get. I wanted a liquid death today, and they sent me the sparkling ones. And, you know, I don't like sparkling water. They, like, mix up the order.

[Em McElhinney]

My bad.

[Christine Schieffer]

Um, but no, I feel so bad because I also collect a lot of stuff, but I've been able to shove all of my. Like, if there were a fire, what am I grabbing and running out with? I have three of those that. If I have time to grab all three of them, I have everything, like of my childhood memories that if everything else burns the ground, at least I've got those.

[Em McElhinney]

Nice.

[Christine Schieffer]

And I felt so bad because during these fires and Allison was evacuating. Yeah. I like, I was like, can you get my memory boxes? And she said a lug, like with her like three big ass boxes.

[Em McElhinney]

She goes, yeah, I had to evacuate, but I had to stop at the storage unit for all of ems, for all of Em's childhood memories. And I was like, that's hilarious.

[Christine Schieffer]

It was also like she was such a homie. Because I was. I did tell her. I was like, you don't have to. If you, if you don't. If you are not in like eminent danger.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

If you're like. If you're like. Because she was evacuating in advance before.

[Em McElhinney]

There was ever like a. Yeah. Forced evacuation.

[Christine Schieffer]

But. But I, I did feel bad because I was like, yeah, this doesn't feel like something that you can get out with urgently. But at the same time, like, I have amassed quite a collection that has now turned into three big ass Contigo's.

[Em McElhinney]

And I can't believe you fit it on those though. Like, I mean, I have a house of it. Like just everywhere, every corner, every. It's like that. I mean, I don't know.

[Christine Schieffer]

I have one, that's all. And that's why we drank. And a lot of it by the way, is like merch. Because usually when we get new merch, I ask for two of them. One to wear and one to save. Because one day we won't have it anymore and I would. I'll want a new one. Yeah. So I have a whole thing just of. And that's why I drink stuff. One whole thing of grandparents, stuff I've inherited and then one of all like childhood crap.

[Em McElhinney]

So what about furniture and stuff or like paintings or like anything? Like, do you have stuff that. Like that or not really furniture wise?

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, we, we had. I never had furniture until our last apartment.

[Em McElhinney]

Right.

[Christine Schieffer]

So. And then one of them, the main thing was like a couch. Was the couch when I bought a.

[Em McElhinney]

House and I was close enough to my family's house that I could get stuff from their house if I needed.

[Christine Schieffer]

Like, I will say, just as annoyingly as I was with Allison about the three totes. That was like unnecessary. I have made my mother save our dining room table from childhood.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh yeah, me too.

[Christine Schieffer]

So that's in the basement at some point. Sorry, Allison. That's showing up at some point. I don't know where. Not in this house. It's, like, the size of our house, but. But I do have that.

[Em McElhinney]

I love it because it has all the markings from, like, doing homework at the same spot.

[Christine Schieffer]

And I'm. I'm so mad. She recently got rid of all the furniture that we had in the basement growing up. And that was, like, where all of our sleepovers were. And, like, most of my memories were on that furniture. And then she just goodwilled it. She didn't even do, like, it was, like, great furniture. I was like, what's wrong with you? Like, I have so many memories on that couch. But then what would I do with it? You know?

[Em McElhinney]

So I don't know. I've heard stories what happened in that basement.

[Christine Schieffer]

A lot happened on those couches.

[Em McElhinney]

I don't know if you want enough. Allison wants that.

[Christine Schieffer]

I'm not saying I was the culprit. I'm saying I know you were the culprit.

[Em McElhinney]

I know you couch had a track.

[Christine Schieffer]

Record with a lot of people.

[Em McElhinney]

What I'm saying, maybe give it to one of them. Maybe they'll pick it up. Maybe they'll be like, I smell some pheromones on this. For some reason, I'm feeling attracted to it anyway, that.

[Christine Schieffer]

I think my mom knows that had she offered it to me, I would have said, keep it, and then she would have been stuck with it, and.

[Em McElhinney]

I think she would have killed her.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, I think she just got rid of it and asked forgiveness instead of permission.

[Em McElhinney]

Yes, I can understand that.

[Christine Schieffer]

What's like, a piece of furniture that, like, means a lot to you, that you. I mean, you're allowed to, like, let go of whatever you want, but some things you're also allowed to just really hold on to. Is there something that you're definitely holding on to?

[Em McElhinney]

Yes, I have quite a lot, actually. I'm. Well, I'm trying to get rid of some furniture. I feel like when I moved in, I got way, which I feel like happens, like, overzealous. Like, I wanted every room to have its, like, furniture, and it's set up.

[Christine Schieffer]

And you decorated beautifully, by the way.

[Em McElhinney]

Very nice. Thank you.

[Christine Schieffer]

But I felt, not to make it worse, to get rid of.

[Em McElhinney]

Just felt so overwhelmed because it's like I just have stuff everywhere, and it. Everything doesn't have a place, and so it just kind of piles, like, you know, my trash pile. And then I get very just, like, mood swingy about the mess, and it really takes over, and then I dissociate. So I've just been, like, really trying to be very kind to myself and like, oh, if you want it, fine. If you don't want it, like, just remove the value judgment. Like, don't harp on it or feel guilty. You know, all that. And I've watched a lot of videos and read some books that really helped, including if anyone is looking for help in this area. How to keep House While drowning is awesome for neurodivergent folks who struggle with, like, cleaning and keeping things in order and even basic stuff like, you. And I've talked about, like, executive function stuff, toothbrushing, et cetera, hygiene and. And laundry is a big one she talks about. Anyway, so. But the things that I have. My dad bought this when he moved to the U.S. he bought this, like, old wooden. What do you call it? Sort of like a china cabinet. Like a hutch. Like, a big wooden hutch. That's really cool. And then I have several pieces that I bought from estate sales that are, like, Victorian furniture and dressers and things to match the. And I just bought a big apothecary. A Victorian apothecary. I know. I'm like, I bought all this. Like, yeah, my house is a disaster, but I keep on it. But I bought all that stuff. And then I was like, you know what, Christine, 2025. Stop buying stuff. Clear the house out. Figure out what you like, and don't, like, make it livable, rather than just like, oh, I like that. I'll put it here. You know, just. I just need to take a breath. So simplify is my word of the year.

[Christine Schieffer]

That's nice. I feel like mine's, like, complicate.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, gosh. Maybe we should have. Maybe we should have referenced with each other before we chose our resolutions and went in opposite directions.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, because I. I think I get so in my head about furniture. Maybe it's because, like, our place is not that big. So when I think about furniture, it's like, we really have to measure every single thing, and. And then we can only have one of everything. So it's like, okay, well, what's the one thing we're gonna get? And then I have, like, task paralysis or choice paralysis, where I'm like, well, what if. What if something cooler comes along right after we hit purchase?

[Em McElhinney]

Literally? And that's why my house has, like, four of things, because I'm like, yeah, well, I have room for it in a different room. And it's like, I shouldn't have to just, like, buy it because I. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, I want to be more intentional about that kind of thing. And I feel. I felt so much guilt about accumulating so much stuff. And now I'm kind of like, you know what? I've been using, like, you and Eva taught me about buy nothing on Facebook. And I'm just trying to, like, find homes for things that I maybe bought, like, sporadically. I'm also, like, I told Em the other day, untangling a lot of like, oh, God, shadow work stuff. I know I'm not gonna harp on it, but basically I've. I've been trying to detach from a lot of my, like, compulsive buying and online shopping. And I think a lot of us, maybe some of us, I do that as like a. As like a way to distract from the world, you know? And so I'm trying to, you know, just untangle some of that stuff. And with that comes emptying out a lot of my house and some of the stuff. I mean, I'm not kidding. I moved to LA and back with. And I'm now looking at. With this feeling of, you know, also the sunk cost fallacy of like, well, I've moved with it everywhere. Why would I get rid of it now? And it's like, well, because you've decided you don't need it after all, you know, and it's just a lot of emotion goes into it. A lot of, like, exhausting types of emotion.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, no, I totally. At some point, I wonder if I'm only attached to the attachment, you know.

[Em McElhinney]

That'S what it is. Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, that's a good point because sometimes I like. Right. I know eventually we're gonna get a new couch. We are currently using the couch that was in the Troll Hole, which never got any play, by the way, at my apartment. Like, we never sat on that thing and now we're using it all the time. But it's our temporary couch until the studio gets built. And then it's going to go there and it'll be in the neutral hole. So then eventually we'll have another blank canvas in the room. So I. I constantly am dealing with.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, yeah, you got that layered situation.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. I'm like, how do. Where do I even start?

[Em McElhinney]

And you have like a change where you're like, oh, how long is it even going to be in here? Do I want it for, like, years worth? Do I want it for like, six months? Oh, my Lord. Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

Was going to say, speaking of spending more money recently, I think I pulled a Christine and I. I got a little too impulsive recently with Pokemon cards.

[Em McElhinney]

See. But now I need someone to live vicariously. So maybe perfect that we flip flopped and now I can just ride the waves and watch you do it.

[Christine Schieffer]

I was being really good. I was like, I'm not gonna do any frivolous spending, blah, blah, blah. And I was happy with the Pokemon cards I had. I hadn't really touched my collection in several months.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, you had actually said that to me about your. You were very content with your collection.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. But then rj, I don't know why now. It could have been useful later or earlier, but RJ decided he also wants to get into Pokemon collecting now. So then he. He's very sweet. I really appreciate how often he tries to keep in touch with me now that we don't live together. And he asked me if I wanted to collect a deck with him. So now we're collecting a deck together. Oh, that's precious fun. And so it gave me permission to start spending a bunch of money.

[Em McElhinney]

I know, but you know, at least it's like not something that'll just be thrown into the black hole void of, you know, of just trying. Of fulfillment. Sorry, I've gotten really dramatic lately in my head. But you know what, at least it's like a fulfilling thing with a friend. Right? Like, at least. That's why I think when we go places and go shopping and stuff like on tour or like gift shops, it's there's. There's something very joyful about like buying a sticker here. Cuz like we were there together and you know, it was.

[Christine Schieffer]

I was just looking at stuff that I collected over the tour and every, like every so often I'd be like, oh, I got this one with Christine. Oh, I got this one with.

[Em McElhinney]

It's another troll. It's another troll themed. Most of mine were from that troll place in. Where was that?

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, I know where that was because I literally just looked it up. It was in. It was in Wisconsin.

[Em McElhinney]

Wisconsin. Yes.

[Christine Schieffer]

But we stumbled upon the troll capital of the world. How do you.

[Em McElhinney]

I mean, we literally, like out of a fairy tale, stumbled upon the troll like in. We've entered a ferry.

[Christine Schieffer]

It was called the grumpy Troll Stick.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, well, that was a bar. Yeah. And then we got all our grumpy troll man. That was cool. And then I texted Eve, my sister in law and her partner Philip is from Wisconsin. I was like, oh my God, I just went to the troll and they were like, what are you talking about? And I was like, did we find like hidden gem? Was it. No. Was it like a literal fairy ring? And we like Went to a dimension and now we're just changelings and we're. No wonder we're so up.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, I will. I will. I. I will say, I was thinking for a second, like, maybe I shouldn't say something and give it to you as a gift, but I think you would enjoy the purchasing of it yourself. Is that one of the reasons I started collecting Pokemon cards was because I love tchotchkes and collecting things and buying things. But we lived in an apartment together, and we only had so much room for all this stuff. But so I was like, okay, well, how do I, like, get the joy of buying things while also, like, not taking up physical space? Compact.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. And so I can buy as many cards as I want. They all go in the same binder. So, like, no more space taken up. So I think you are doing that, getting that same fix with your little tin types and your pictures.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, my God, you're so right. And you know what's so funny is I bought a bunch of, like, albums and, like, stuff.

[Christine Schieffer]

I was going to say, you should get a really nice album and feel good about, like, it, because weirdly, okay, I don't have with me, but my Pokemon binders. I almost love them as much as my cards. And so it makes me, like. It becomes like this little sacred, like.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, yes, that's what I want. And I think I overloaded myself with just, like, hobbies and stuff and, like, trinkets and junk and books, and I. It just all started piling up and I didn't have a place for it. And I miss having, like, an intentional hobby and an intentional collection. And I think, like, right now the photos are just, like, in different boxes all through the house. And I'm like, I want to clear out my house so I can have a space to just do my pictures.

[Christine Schieffer]

Might I suggest? Because I literally just bought this because I also. I started when I would go to all these chachki shops full of stickers and stuff. They also had a bunch of, like, greeting cards that I would, like, think were so funny that I. I, for a while was like, oh, well, frame them or something. But then I ended up getting so many greeting cards, I was like, I have to start sending cards.

[Em McElhinney]

I started mailing them out. Yeah, I had to.

[Christine Schieffer]

So. Well, I bought a collector, like a.

[Em McElhinney]

Like, oh, I have one of those. That. Okay. That was one of my last 2024 purchases. Because I was like, I know If I start 2025 and I buy something like that, I'm going to start being like, well, now I want color coded everything. So I was like, no, just that for the greeting cards. Isn't that that thing is going to be a game changer for you? It has helped me so much.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, I was going to say you should have one of these just for your. Your old old time pictures.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, I do. I have an accessory and a sorting container for everything.

[Christine Schieffer]

It's just there's so much container for your containers.

[Em McElhinney]

But that's. I do, I have, I have them. I have containers for my containers for contain bad. And so I watch all these shows about like oh, how to organize. And then I buy all the organizing supplies and then they stack up and it's like, wait a minute. I had this realization which I realize is very obvious to most people, but I was like, my house just has no order in it. I need it to be ordered first and feel like safe and comfortable before I start moving and organized. Like, I want stuff out that I don't need anymore before I like focus on that. So I had to take a step back from the organizing.

[Christine Schieffer]

If you. I, I know I keep like offering it at to no avail, but if for some reason you want even just like brunt labor help or if you don't want to think, I, I got.

[Em McElhinney]

You can literally come anytime. It's an open invite. My sister came over the other day and there's nothing I love and I was like, I don't want to do this. And then she came over and I did it and I was like, oh, that was really helpful. So anytime. Listen, I'm just gonna be doing it so if you want to pop on over, I'll be here. I. Oh, it's embarrassing. I.

[Christine Schieffer]

No, it's my favorite.

[Em McElhinney]

I carry quite a bit of shame about some of the stuff but you know, there's no part of the, there's part of the, there's reasons that it's all part of the territory, you know.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, there's no, no, there's no reason to feel shame about it. I think that's stupid.

[Em McElhinney]

I think shame is as a stupid.

[Christine Schieffer]

Is a killer there. No, I mean like, what's there to be ashamed about that you love everything in there?

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, no, no, it's not that. I mean, I don't love everything that's part of the problem. It's just like I hold on to stuff. It's like a hoarding. I'm not a hoarder, but I have family who does have the. Have hoarding tendencies and it's like this like psychological thing or you're like, I can't let go of something, even though I don't like it or want it and it makes me unhappy or it's gross or, you know, I don't know. There's just some things that are hard for me to, like, part with. Well, it's, like, not normal thinking. But anyway, yes, there, I would. I always welcome the help. Now that I've learned.

[Christine Schieffer]

No judgment for me, I'm. I, like, truly, there's nothing I love more than cleaning. And not like, like, cleaning other people's stuff, like, in, like, organizing.

[Em McElhinney]

No, I totally get that. My sister was, like, in her element, and then I went downstairs, and she had, like, done all the Christmas stuff, and I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. You saved my life. I would not have done that for another two months. Yeah. So if you want to come over, obviously, there's nothing I can do at your house. I can dust your Pokemon cards, but, you know, other than that, you can. You run a tight ship over there. I know that about you and Allison. You have, like, a very minimalist Intentionally and because of your space.

[Christine Schieffer]

But, yeah, I think it would certainly not be so minimal if we had.

[Em McElhinney]

But this is why I bought a big house, because I'm sick in the head and I know I'll fill it. You know what I mean? I mean, I think this actually where with cheaper real estate so I could buy a bigger house so I could fill it with junk.

[Christine Schieffer]

No, I think this ended up. As much as I take issue with the size of our house, I. It really, I think, saves me in the end because I know I would be filling well.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, you're putting a boundary on yourself, which sometimes sucks, but it's like, oh, I'm like, setting a parameter for myself.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. And. And there are times where I do appreciate the size of it, because, remember, for a long time, I wanted to, like, move into a tiny house, and this is the best of both worlds. This is a tiny.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, I think I've always been, like, good at maintaining that once you set that rule for yourself, like, you're very good at, like, okay, that goes. That gets donated. That's out, you know?

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, because we. We just bought a temporary coffee table because, again, we don't know if we'll keep it when we move the couch. You know, it's so. It's all these stupid dominoes, but. But then immediately Allison was like, oh, I can put all my stuff on the table. And I was like, no, you cannot. I was like, what do you mean? Like now that's going to look all cluttered and like, I just, I, I have a really tough issue when it comes to like dusting and sweeping. If there's like obstacles for me to dust and sweep around, there's so less likely of a chance that I'm gonna do it.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, well, that makes a lot of sense because I always watch those commercials and go, I should Swiffer. And then I look at my floor and I'm like, oh, every inch is covered with something I can't swiffer.

[Christine Schieffer]

Exactly. So like when we were picking out furniture, I was trying to in like in advance think of stuff. Like I, I, I got like, I did floating nightstands next to our bed so that way there wouldn't be legs to have to sweep around and stuff. So it's just like built into the wall.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh my God.

[Christine Schieffer]

So little things like that. As soon as she was like, oh, I'm gonna put everything on the floor on, in this table, I was like, wait a minute, hang on, hang on.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, yeah, I do, I do get that way if I have a plan for something and then like I walk in and somebody put their stuff on it, I'm like, what the hell?

[Christine Schieffer]

Like, yeah, I'm like, get that off fucking mind. Um, anyway, no, I, I think the only reason I'm, I'm a little strict about that stuff is because I know the second that there is a, a way to talk myself out of keeping it clean, then I, I just won't keep it clean.

[Em McElhinney]

So anyway, well, I don't, I don't and I don't recommend it because it's really bad for my mental health. So by the way, I have other.

[Christine Schieffer]

Severe other mental health problems.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, trust me, don't worry, I'm not, it's not a, it's unfortunately not were both very sick in the head. I'm sure all of our listeners are in their own special ways.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, I feel like we definitely went on a tirade here and it kind of morphed into something. But I never asked you why you drink or is this why you drink?

[Em McElhinney]

Well, now, yeah, now it's probably all this. I'm really scared of some of the built in shelves behind my tv. There's some because we moved in and put stuff in there and it haven't touched it since May of 2020.

[Christine Schieffer]

So that's probably like a treasure trove. It's a time capsule. Ooh.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah. But mostly just like random junk, I guess.

[Christine Schieffer]

I have a question for you because I, my mom and I Think a lot of us grew up having, like, built ins in living rooms. That was, like, part of the, like, you know, some of the fancy look to it, I guess. And I think all of the books that were on. I honestly don't think my mom ever read or touched one of those books. They were purely decorative. How do you fill out an. In a built in like that do.

[Em McElhinney]

You read Filled with a bunch of piles of chords that don't work anymore. I'm not making that up. And also random board games that are missing pieces, puzzles that didn't. That were too big for Liana or I didn't know what to do with.

[Christine Schieffer]

So it's your doom box.

[Em McElhinney]

It's. Well, it's my doom wall. And it's very large. It's about 12ft tall, and it's the pro. Okay, so, no, but in all seriousness, so I didn't grow up with built ins because my house was from 1860 and I lived in a graveyard, as you recall. So my house was not trendy or anything. So we didn't have built ins. So I don't know what a normal person puts in built ins.

[Christine Schieffer]

Okay.

[Em McElhinney]

I bought a big stick, and I've never. My stepfather still talks about it, and sometimes he'll bring a stick to my house and be like, here, I bought this for you. And it's like the meanest joke, but it's like, because it's so true, because I literally ordered a decorative stick on the Internet one time. Like. Like, I feel like this is full circle of what the fuck is happening here is like, I bought this beautiful stick because I thought, oh, that'll like, make my house look nice. So then I put it in front of all the piles.

[Christine Schieffer]

You elaborate. Or cables.

[Em McElhinney]

I mean, literally, I'm like a fucking crow. I don't know, man. I'm sick. And so then I, like, created this disaster, and now there's all these random books that, no, I don't read. But I did color code one day when I was feeling really detached from reality, and so I only got through red and orange, and then the rest is just a mix of browns, so it's not even rainbow. And then there's a big stick that just has so many spider webs on it.

[Christine Schieffer]

It's actually. That's a great story, though.

[Em McElhinney]

So anyway, it's not a story. It's my life. No, I'm kidding.

[Christine Schieffer]

It is. Well, I will say, like. So one of the bookstores near us, they literally have a whole wall that are full of books that I guess they know no one will ever fucking read. And they just color coordinated it, color coordinated them and it just says like decorative books. So they. They know. They know. Yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, so you can buy. Well, so when I bought that, that decorative stick, I almost bought decorative books. And Blaze was like, you need to really like. Well, actually he didn't say this. I said it to myself. I was like, you need to reach really deep into yourself and ask yourself if you need to buy decorative colored books. And it's not like you're like, no.

[Christine Schieffer]

But the stick has to come home.

[Em McElhinney]

But the stick has to come home. There's no choice. It was beautiful and it is and it remains beautiful. And I keep it in there and I keep it as actually I keep it in there because I need a ladder to get it down and I don't have one on hand because it's in the garage behind a lot of other stuff.

[Christine Schieffer]

This is why you have a three year old, you put her on your shoulders, you have her and then you both are involved in the stick. Coot.

[Em McElhinney]

And then a sharp stick comes raining down on top of us with a bunch of mystery items and spider webs. Yeah, no, I actually, you know what, I'm gonna take a photo of that because I feel like I've cleared so much of my house out that even the messy rooms look so much less bad than they did before. So I wanted to take a picture of that before I even touch it. And we'll have Megan post it and you all can e roast me or relate or just say, oh dear. I thought I could relate until I saw a picture and now it's so much worse than I expected.

[Christine Schieffer]

You know what, I looked up decorative sticks and I see a few that I understand are worth buying.

[Em McElhinney]

Well, thank you. I think it was for a terrarium and I just bought it for my wall for my built in shelves. This was back in Los Angeles. Oh, and then here's another idiot. Here's the other up fuckery I did is that I then paid a mover to bring my decorative stick from Los Angeles to Kentucky and it's still in.

[Christine Schieffer]

My house and go, where should I put this in the yard?

[Em McElhinney]

He probably just threw it away. And I was like, no, let me get that back.

[Christine Schieffer]

I mean, just handed it to Geo and it's like, obviously this was his.

[Em McElhinney]

This is obviously not a dog toy. It's obviously a decorative piece that goes in the built in shelves. Hello. Anyway, so sorry. All that to say who knows how much I spent on a box because it's a big fucking stick. But it's fine. It's fine. We're getting through it together, everybody. We're. We're holding hands across the world.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yes. One stick at a time.

[Em McElhinney]

We're just all past the decorative baton. Pass the decorative stick.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, with that, I have a story for you.

[Em McElhinney]

Thank you for letting me vent that out. That was really cathartic.

[Christine Schieffer]

I loved it. And now I know if I ever come and clean your house, to not touch the stick.

[Em McElhinney]

Thank you. And you know what? Because I think maybe it was just meant to be told, the story, and maybe now I can let it go. You know what I mean? Maybe I needed to get the story out there.

[Christine Schieffer]

You know how they have, like, symbolic burnings? Like, maybe it would be ironic that you could burn a stick. It's.

[Em McElhinney]

Why don't I just give. When Allison's on the way to the storage unit, I'll just have her bring a bunch of my stuff, and when she sees the smoke, she can just toss it into the wildfire and it'll be.

[Christine Schieffer]

She can contribute to the mass tragedies.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, exactly. Well, I will be doing it. She'll just be a middleman. No person.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. No. Hey, if you need. Actually, I guess I need a place to store some of my memories. Maybe I just give you more and just give you my memories, too.

[Em McElhinney]

I mean, it's really. It's a. That's why my mom's house has become the way it is, and she's finally, like, getting through it all, because she's like, this is just when people. I mean, I'm sure a lot of parents can relate. Like, when people. When the kids come home from college and they leave, like, huge boxes of stuff, then they come home from grad school, and then they come home from, like, a job or a breakup or whatever, and it's like, you just end up with all this that, like, nobody wants.

[Christine Schieffer]

And so I have in my bedroom at my mom's house, the closet, my clothes closet. That is the only place in the house where I like. I. Mom, if you're listening, I'm still mad at you.

[Em McElhinney]

I remember this. I even. I know what's going to happen.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, I have a closet that. It's. It's a small closet. It's like, I'm taking up a lot of space. It's like a random. Like, open the doors, and there's a closet, and I have things in there that I don't want thrown away yet, but it would be, like, too expensive to ship it here. And no One's using that room. So it's not like it's like in anyone's way. But all I want is for her to not touch the closet in my room. She can touch whatever she wants in my room. She could put a peloton in there, which she already has. She can put a massage table in there, which she already has. She can do whatever she wants in the actual room. I don't give a shit. Just let me have that one closet to keep some of my stuff in. Every time I come home it has been absolutely riddled with and it's like what are you doing in there? Like what have you doing closet? One time she like well that's where she keeps all of her other clothes because they don't fit in her like 10 foot walk in closet.

[Em McElhinney]

Ah, I'm sure she has some built ins. Tell her they're full of room. I haven't looked at mine in years.

[Christine Schieffer]

She has a massive, massive like a Kris Jenner closet.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh my God.

[Christine Schieffer]

And her clothes still don't fit in there. So she has to use my room and my stepbrother's room and my step siblings room.

[Em McElhinney]

I'm afraid to ask. Where does Tom keep his clothes?

[Christine Schieffer]

In a lunchbox somewhere.

[Em McElhinney]

I don't know. Like just at his job, at work, in the car.

[Christine Schieffer]

He just wears them. He just wears his one shirt.

[Em McElhinney]

He wears his outfit.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, no, he has, he has like a spot in the closet. But like it like she has enough room but then she like we can.

[Em McElhinney]

All, we can all picture this situation.

[Christine Schieffer]

By the way, full circle of this conversation because I started with I have too many clothes but wonder where I get it from. But she like has to always.

[Em McElhinney]

I don't know. It sounds like Tom has a problem with overspending on his clothes so.

[Christine Schieffer]

It sure does. Yeah. No, he literally everything he owns is inherited or a hand me down from his childhood.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, they like to just make it even more obvious how much money we're spending. Well, the sensible ones.

[Christine Schieffer]

I mean my mom put cook. My mom puts her clothes in my closet and to a point where the bar in the closet broke that many clothes and then it toppled on all of my shit and all of my shit in there now. Anyways. Like your mom smells like mom. Anyway, we've been talking for 40 minutes. Should we tell a story?

[Em McElhinney]

I guess. Tell me a tale. We've, we've. Spin me a web. Tell me a tale.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well I could, I could borrow a web from your decorative stick.

[Em McElhinney]

They're all being used right now for something important. So the biggest problem that I had with grocery shopping was that I had three people in my house and it was always a chore to figure out like who needs what? And Blaze and I would go separately and forget certain things for Leona. But now that Hungry Root is involved, they know I have a three year old and they know what three year old food is and appetites are. So they send stuff for Leona and then stuff for me and Blaze.

[Christine Schieffer]

Hungry Root is like having your own personal shopper. They take care of the weekly grocery shopping, recommending healthy groceries tailored to your taste, nutrition preferences and health goals. And they make it easy to get high quality nutritious foods and achieve any diet or health goals from anti inflammatory to gut friendly, gluten free, dairy free.

[Em McElhinney]

You tell them your goals, your preferences, they fill a personalized cart for you and you can change things around. But usually I look at the cart and go, yep, looks good. Ready to eat meals. They have salad kits, they have supplement smoothies, kids snacks, desserts, recipes that you can cook yourself. They just have so much good stuff. But what they don't have is high fructose corn syrup. No artificial sweeteners, which I am allergic to, no preservatives than any other food. It's just top quality meat and seafood free of hormones and antibiotics. We love it.

[Christine Schieffer]

For a limited time, get 40% off your first box. Plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com drink and use code drink. That's hungryroot.com drink code drink to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your Choice for Life. Hungryroot.com Drink Code Drink.

[Em McElhinney]

The other day I was at Costco and I saw Organ on the shelf and I went, oh my God.

[Christine Schieffer]

I've recently told RJ that I was gonna be giving him some of my Orgain. He's very excited. Just like how we're switching out Pokemon cards with each other now. We're also trading protein powders.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, you're so evolved.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, this podcast is sponsored by Orgain and Orgain believes real nutrition has the power to make a real difference in people's lives.

[Em McElhinney]

That's what I told everyone at Costco and they were like, please leave, you're blocking the path. So Organ is famous for their organic plant protein powder. It packs 21 grams of complete protein with all nine essential amino acids. All organ products are made with USDA certified organic ingredients. So we know we're getting the nutrition we need without the things we try to avoid.

[Christine Schieffer]

Remember, there are no quick fixes when it comes to your health. If you want more protein, give organ organic plant protein powder a try and head to orgain.com drink and use code drink for 30% off your order. That's the best offer you'll find, but you have to use our code drink for 30% off.

[Em McElhinney]

One last time for 30 off, head to orgain.com drink and use our code drink.

[Christine Schieffer]

Okay, so this is a. An international ghost story for you. This is the Guyra ghost. Guyra Gaira is a town in Australia. Oh, okay, so Guyra is a town in Australia and New South Wales, and we have not covered a lot of Australia cases, but this is a good one to start on because apparently the town of Guyra is best known for its annual lamb and potato festival, which.

[Em McElhinney]

I gotta believe every town in Australia has some form of festival. It feel. Just feels right.

[Christine Schieffer]

I love a fest. You know what? I have decided in this exact moment that my New Year's resolution at the end of January is that I'm going to go to more festivals and conventions.

[Em McElhinney]

To buy more tchotchkes and more stuff.

[Christine Schieffer]

But if I'm going to the potato festival, I'm probably only going to buy one tchotchke and I'm gonna eat a lot of chotchkis.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, man. What's the way. Where's the. Oh, the potato festival. I thought you meant you were actively already planning to go to a. And I was like, how the. Have you just not mentioned this? And then say it so casually? Okay, okay, so if we were, say we were hypothetically to go to a potato fest. Yeah. Oh, I would buy one of everything. T shirt bedding.

[Christine Schieffer]

I know. Well, for example, every July out here is the watermelon. Watermelon festival.

[Em McElhinney]

Where is that?

[Christine Schieffer]

It's in the valley.

[Em McElhinney]

I've never been to that.

[Christine Schieffer]

But here's the thing. It's always so hot and the. The fairgrounds are always so dusty. Like, do you really want to eat slices of watermelon in a big dusty field? Not really.

[Em McElhinney]

I mean, it really does speak to, like, very Americana roots, you know?

[Christine Schieffer]

Yes.

[Em McElhinney]

Dusty. Dusty watermelon.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. Well, I. I keep waiting to find a shirt from there that I like. But isn't it too bad when places.

[Em McElhinney]

Don'T have a good design and you're like, man, I would spend disgust bucks on this.

[Christine Schieffer]

You had one. It's actually one job. It's actually honestly rancid. It's rancid business marketing.

[Em McElhinney]

You tell them.

[Christine Schieffer]

And I've always said that. So Festival. Are you listening?

[Em McElhinney]

Be careful.

[Christine Schieffer]

Be careful. Okay, here we are. All events that I am about to tell you take place in 1921, starting in April. We don't know when because every single source had a different day that it started on. So. Okay, okay, we're just gonna say April. One source said April Fool's Day, which is like a fun added poke to this, I guess, but I don't know if that's true. Okay, okay. So this is the Bowen family. And the husband is William. The mom is Catherine. Husband and why did I say mom? Yuck. The husband is William, the wife is Catherine, and they have three kids. And the family experienced allegedly, a poltergeist. So right before this poltergeist activity came about, the town was already on edge. We were all a little freaked out about things because they had recently endured some darkness in the town. First off, there was an older woman in town. Her name was Mrs. Doran. And she home girl just goes missing out of nowhere. The last person who saw her was a farmer. And he literally is quoted in multiple papers saying that he saw her holding two potatoes and just walked off into the distance to the potato. Maybe she was on her way to the potato festival.

[Em McElhinney]

I mean, she was. She had her wares. She was ready for the show. She was just a little early.

[Christine Schieffer]

She said, I'm double fisting it at the festival and I'm bringing these from home so I don't have to get overcharged.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, yeah, you just gotta hide them in the bra. No one will know you're bringing your own potatoes.

[Christine Schieffer]

Bringing your candy to the movie theater. It's like, if I bring my own potatoes, then I'm having just as much fun as everyone else.

[Em McElhinney]

I tell someone to fry it up for me. Perfect.

[Christine Schieffer]

Easy, easy. Like you already got. You already got it frying over there. Just dip these in oil.

[Em McElhinney]

Just dip these in. It's no big deal. So that shows she just vanishes. She's vanishing two potatoes in hand, over.

[Christine Schieffer]

The sunrise, holding her two potatoes.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, my God.

[Christine Schieffer]

Which is exactly how I see myself going.

[Em McElhinney]

Also, that is how I see you crossing the rainbow bridge, two potatoes in hand.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, exactly. So anyway, she just goes missing and people are freaked out because they're like, why the. Like, what happened to her? Is she. Did she get abducted?

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

And so the town assumes they're like, she must have been kidnapped or something bad must have happened to her for her to not come home. So the rumor spread that now there was someone out there maybe abducting women. So then that Put people on edge. So much on edge that a bunch of women in town started sleeping with loaded guns just in case someone tried to get them in the middle of the night. So town's freaking out, but now all the women are sleeping with guns under their pillows.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, boy.

[Christine Schieffer]

And this led to one woman who had a gun either under her pillow or on a nightstand. I saw different things. Say different things. Her five year old son found the gun.

[Em McElhinney]

No.

[Christine Schieffer]

And thought it was a toy. And shot his six year old sister in the head.

[Em McElhinney]

Jesus Christ. Oh my God.

[Christine Schieffer]

The. Oh, God. Bad time to thumbs up Apple.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh my God. Apple needs to turn that off.

[Christine Schieffer]

I know. She did survive, but the bullet was like forever lodged, like they couldn't get it out.

[Em McElhinney]

She survived.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

Thank God.

[Christine Schieffer]

So anyway, there's just like. The town is just very. Things are in a state wild.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

And on top of all that, now comes April. Maybe April Fool's Day, I'm not sure. And the Bowen family starts experiencing odd noises on the property. They hear strange knockings on the outside of their house, like someone's just knocking on the walls out there. And they start noticing that they're hearing sounds of rocks hitting their house. And when they kind of waited around, they realized that the sounds were getting louder and louder. And eventually these rocks that were getting thrown at their house were now pelting the house, including the windows, which are now shattering.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, and that has happened in these stories, right? Where things hit the roof and stuff?

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, like stories. Yeah. And these. Which is interesting to me because I always think of poltergeist as like a thing that's in the house and stuck in the house, but it seems to be targeting the house and it's stuck to the property or something.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah. Well, I wonder, you know how they say poltergeist activity is like influenced by teenage hormones and all that, or fear and anxiety.

[Christine Schieffer]

Keep that in mind.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay. I wonder if that's why, like when rocks start hitting it, it's almost like it's magnetizing stuff. I don't know. A vortex, if you will.

[Christine Schieffer]

I know I'm covering a poltergeist case right now, but what you said was very woo woo.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, thank you so much. And energy. It was no big deal.

[Christine Schieffer]

It's. It's deep in a way I wasn't expecting.

[Em McElhinney]

I've just really lately gone off the deep end in case anyone can't tell.

[Christine Schieffer]

I love it. So they started noticing. Yeah. These small stones were getting pelted at their house seemingly by nothing. They would look out the window without glass on it now, I guess. And they'd go, where the. Is. What's going on? Which, by the way. Yeah, I was gonna say. I was like, I would not be looking too far out.

[Em McElhinney]

What are you sticking your head out there for?

[Christine Schieffer]

I'd be, like, hiding behind the window with, like, a mirror, and I go, I don't know. Yeah, right.

[Em McElhinney]

Like a little periscope.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. By the way, bring back periscopes. 20, 25.

[Em McElhinney]

No, they. Oh, no, they exist. Don't worry. Don't you just need to have a kid? It's so fun today. Leona and I built the most incredible fort, and I was like, oh, man, I can't wait for her to have a periscope. We got to go build one. Oh, it's the fun times, man.

[Christine Schieffer]

That's a good one.

[Em McElhinney]

Teacher to spy.

[Christine Schieffer]

God, my favorite activities. Those spy toys. I still think about them during the clear craze.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, I was going to say. Well, she definitely has the invisible ink already, so she's that.

[Christine Schieffer]

But does she have the glasses with the mirrors? Those are my favorite.

[Em McElhinney]

Now. Those are going to be a delight. But I. I think she might hurt herself. So we're gonna wait a couple months till she can maybe walk a little straighter. I don't know.

[Christine Schieffer]

Fair enough.

[Em McElhinney]

We'll see.

[Christine Schieffer]

I remember they sold them at the Scholastic Book Fair when I was younger, and I was like, oh, those kids. Goddamn thing stuff.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, man, that was my jam.

[Christine Schieffer]

Wow.

[Em McElhinney]

I bought all the spy stuff off that Scholastic. They had, like, a journal that you had to, like, voice activate to open all that.

[Christine Schieffer]

I remember it.

[Em McElhinney]

God, it was magical.

[Christine Schieffer]

And the. The hearing one with. It was like. It was just. Like. It was just a speaker or something. But it. I really thought, oh, I could hear voices amplified through the walls, but it was like. It looked like a little sonar.

[Em McElhinney]

Still convinced it worked?

[Christine Schieffer]

Me, too. I. I feel like it enhanced it now.

[Em McElhinney]

Now you put your thumbs up, and then a little graphic of a thumb comes up, and we get mad. We're like, stop it. Technology back then. We embraced it.

[Christine Schieffer]

Now we're like, that's a great point.

[Em McElhinney]

Telling me how I feel. Technology.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, I don't. Oh, how do we get here? Periscopes.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, how the do I know?

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, right. So the next day, the stones are still being thrown at the house, but now even harder. The windows are being fully smashed in. The family is also experiencing. Remember I said knockings, but the knockings have now become what they're calling thunderous thumpings. And they are so intense that the whole house is shaking.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, God.

[Christine Schieffer]

Within three days, the. The sounds of these thunderous thumpings and the stone pelting are so wild that neighbors are hearing it from their house.

[Em McElhinney]

I have a probably stupid question. This is not the same family where the girl got shot, right?

[Christine Schieffer]

No. Okay, that was.

[Em McElhinney]

That's just an example of how things were, like, going haywire.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yes.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay, gotcha. I just want to make sure it wasn't the same family.

[Christine Schieffer]

No, that was just one woman in. Amidst the fear of being abducted. She had a gun in her house. And so the. All the neighbors were just already kind.

[Em McElhinney]

Of as an example of how things were on edge.

[Christine Schieffer]

Okay, so now all of a sudden, this family is dealing with their windows just being smashed in by nothing.

[Em McElhinney]

Right?

[Christine Schieffer]

Soon enough, because the neighbors were hearing these sounds. I mean, imagine across the street hearing something just like. You're just window smashing non stop. And this is fresh. After thinking that someone's abducting women and you're hearing windows getting smashed. Oh, good point.

[Em McElhinney]

Gl shattering is not a sound that would be comforting in that.

[Christine Schieffer]

No. Or even if it's a lot of knocking, maybe it's like the sound of some, like, banging, like trying to get into your house.

[Em McElhinney]

I don't like that.

[Christine Schieffer]

But. So neighbors were checking in on it. Eventually, just word spread and now the whole town is involved. They bring the constable in, which I always forget about. Constables.

[Em McElhinney]

Not the constable.

[Christine Schieffer]

Alert the constable at haste. Make haste.

[Em McElhinney]

He. A constable. Feels like they're never that fast, though. Like, it feels like they're in a rush, but they're like, kind of slow.

[Christine Schieffer]

I feel like the constable thinks he has a lot to say.

[Em McElhinney]

Totally. And he's in a hurry. But you're like. But for what?

[Christine Schieffer]

I. I feel like constables are those guys at the bar where they like, are having their, like, first half deep idea and they're saying it out loud.

[Em McElhinney]

Wow, that's so true.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, I thought about that when I was five.

[Em McElhinney]

Sort of like, thanks for your input.

[Christine Schieffer]

No, it's like, Sherlock, I'm so glad you think you're as deep as.

[Em McElhinney]

You know what I think you are. No cap. Constable. All right, hold on. Let me say a different one.

[Christine Schieffer]

That.

[Em McElhinney]

That one didn't land. Hold on. I would say. Yeah, let's know. No crap const.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, I would. I would say, get the out of my face, constable.

[Em McElhinney]

I would say, why the. Is there a constable at school?

[Christine Schieffer]

I would say ACAB Constable.

[Em McElhinney]

All constables. All constable constables are banana grams.

[Christine Schieffer]

Banana cramps. I was like, what am I gonna say here? So anyway, what we said.

[Em McElhinney]

What do we say? All geese are silly. Somebody made us. Somebody guess. Somebody made a little graphic of all geese are silly. And it's really good on Instagram.

[Christine Schieffer]

I was. And it's true.

[Em McElhinney]

It. And it's true. And M has always said that.

[Christine Schieffer]

So the constable, he is called in to investigate. And of course, because he thinks he's bigger than his britches or whatever the phrase is, he walks right in britches and all.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, no.

[Christine Schieffer]

And the news got even bigger, and soon other people were hearing about this. So it wasn't just the constable now. It was the constable. And the neighbors have brought themselves in as a. I guess, like, you know, you do, like a citizen's arrest, whatever.

[Em McElhinney]

Like, a citizen's surveillance is like neighborhood watch.

[Christine Schieffer]

Like. Like they have. They have decided that they are as important as the constable in this case.

[Em McElhinney]

I think they knew that all along. I think they always, like, subconsciously felt that way, but they just were like, finally, we can prove it.

[Christine Schieffer]

I think the constable said one not deep thing too many. And they went, take a look at this. We're actually takeover.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, we're done with you. You're just.

[Christine Schieffer]

Don't worry, constable. You sit in the corner, you have.

[Em McElhinney]

Your cool hat and your title, and you just leave us alone.

[Christine Schieffer]

So the neighbors are like, this guy obviously needs some help. Or they were just like. Honestly, maybe they were scared about what had been going on in the world. Or they were just nosy. Because if I were a neighbor and I was given any in 1921, you're.

[Em McElhinney]

Not on, like, tick tock. There's nothing to do.

[Christine Schieffer]

No, I would have made this.

[Em McElhinney]

Are you kidding me?

[Christine Schieffer]

I would have made this my sole personality.

[Em McElhinney]

You. And I would have been, again, the people outside who were, like, so nosy and unashamed about it, you know, totally like.

[Christine Schieffer]

And I'd have been like, you need all the help you can get.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, we're really good at helping.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, so the neighbors show up. They are like, constable, you are not enough to crack this case. We're on it. And I guess the news spread that the constable wasn't enough to crack the case because the story gets so big that the New South Wales state government gets involved, and they send in a team of officers of constables.

[Em McElhinney]

Imagine they're just running amok.

[Christine Schieffer]

What do you think that's called? A gaggle of constables?

[Em McElhinney]

Or it's got to be a conspiracy of constables.

[Christine Schieffer]

I like that one. Let's keep with that, okay, so they send in a conspiracy of constables to be watch around the clock at the Bowens house to figure out who is throwing these stones and which. Like, by the way, like how.

[Em McElhinney]

Like how many constables does it take to figure out who's throwing a rock? Yeah, that was my question as well. I was hoping you'd tell me. How many.

[Christine Schieffer]

Not one. The. The neighborhood watch has grown to about 50 to 80, depending on the night. This is 80 neighbors.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

So you've got.

[Em McElhinney]

And you know, our listener. We were all there in past lives. All of us were there.

[Christine Schieffer]

Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. We were probably the two idiot constables and they were like, we've got it.

[Em McElhinney]

We were there from day one.

[Christine Schieffer]

So, okay, the neighbors get involved. The conspiracy of constables get involved. Eventually it's like nearing 100 people a night and everyone is doing 24, seven surveillance. Which. Did the Bowens ask for this by the way, or did everyone just get so involved?

[Em McElhinney]

It feels like they have lost trust agency in this whole thing. Like people have just taken over the narrative for them. Also, like having all those people running around looking for who's throwing rocks. You just need one dumb teenager to start throwing rocks, you know, and then it's like, oh my God, where did it come from? Like, I mean, but also it's a shit show.

[Christine Schieffer]

An excellent. An excellent point. And to add to that point, another excellent point is like, with so many people there, like, how are they not getting hit in their face?

[Em McElhinney]

They're in front of the target. Yeah, running. Running around it. I mean, like moving targets. I don't know, like if the house.

[Christine Schieffer]

Is being hit at random or like if the target is windows. Are they all actively avoiding windows or are they just not getting hit? I don't.

[Em McElhinney]

Are they like hiding in the bushes?

[Christine Schieffer]

You think there'd be a list of like injuries that came from this.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

But anyway, all the neighbors are like, we're gonna help the police. They are all participating in this around the clock, surrounding the property, surveilling the house, watching for activity. And the mystery becomes known as the guy or ghost. And papers start writing updates, being like, hey, other town. Just so you know, we still haven't figured out who's throwing these fucking rocks.

[Em McElhinney]

The neighborhood watch is actively adding members. So if you're interested, come on.

[Christine Schieffer]

300 more spots available and people obviously far and wide are reading about this. That includes people in the paranormal world. So they wanted to help. The family is like now being advised to like conduct seances to try to like, Ask this thing to stop talk, to stop throwing rocks at them, which like they were, it was throwing rocks. Whether or not you're gonna ask like you don't have to conduct a seance. You could have out loud say I hate this.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, please stop throwing rocks at me. Yeah, feels. It feels like it.

[Christine Schieffer]

They're doing seances. At this point it was suspected that the activity was a ghost, but it could have also been their 12 year old daughter Minnie.

[Em McElhinney]

Minnie.

[Christine Schieffer]

Minnie becomes the main character of our story.

[Em McElhinney]

What are you up to?

[Christine Schieffer]

They thought that this, if it was a spirit and it wasn't Minnie herself, they thought the spirit was connected to her because she seemed to get the worst of the stone throwing where most of the stones were getting thrown near her bedroom window, at her bedroom window. When the window did eventually smash, the rocks were still getting thrown like at her bed through the window. Poor Mini. But I will. Oh, and then the, of course wherever she was is where the knocking was worse than the house. The newspaper that they, by the way, the newspaper that I'm using most of my sources from is called the Cindy Sydney Morning Herald. They fucking ate up this story.

[Em McElhinney]

Well I still use them for a lot of my stories, so that's very funny.

[Christine Schieffer]

So they really, I think they were like the lead journalists on the case because they really. There was like at least eight or nine different articles of theirs. I read about this. They were doing constant updates and this is how they describes many. First of all, you, Sydney Morning Herald, because they said, oh, Minnie was tall, thin, there's a quote. Tall, thin and dark. With peculiar, dark, introspective eyes that never seem to miss any movement in a room. When she speaks to you, she never smiles. She seems to look beyond or through you. She has a rather uncanny aptitude for anticipating questions almost before they are asked and answering them.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah. And she's probably smarter than you.

[Christine Schieffer]

And that's honestly one of the nicer descriptions that they wrote because they straight up say like she's not clever, she's kind of an idiot. She's like backwards in school. That's what they called her.

[Em McElhinney]

Jesus.

[Christine Schieffer]

They, they were not kind. So I'm reading like one of the nicer ones but they straight up say like she is not that kind.

[Em McElhinney]

Why are they bullying this child? She's literally right. She's 12. Jesus.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yes, which like, imagine like you're already insecure as a 12 year old. Imagine like the lead newspaper is saying that you fucking suck and all your.

[Em McElhinney]

Friends are reading it. I mean, God, like, you know someone.

[Christine Schieffer]

At School is like, you're not very clever, are you?

[Em McElhinney]

Okay, backside backwards again. Yeah, like they put her chair backwards. It sounds like I'm the bully. Put the chair back and be like, oh, it's yours.

[Christine Schieffer]

You do have it in you for that to have come so far.

[Em McElhinney]

I actually do. And it's because, I think maybe because A, it happened to me, but also B, I for sure wasn't always the nicest kid.

[Christine Schieffer]

Understood. Just saying, yeah, a mini. I would have, I would have definitely been a mean kid. At least in my own home. I would have laughed about it.

[Em McElhinney]

I would have probably laughed about it with you.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, I would have been like, did you see what they said about Minnie? Oh my God.

[Em McElhinney]

Not as an adult, to be clear, but as a fellow child.

[Christine Schieffer]

I probably, as, as a 12 year old myself who my frontal lobe is not developed, I would have been like, yikes, I'm glad I'm not Minnie. And as an adult, I'd be like, minnie. Really powered through.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, get it, girl.

[Christine Schieffer]

So, okay, so people think that she's the culprit or at least the main target of the ghost, at the very least. No one thinks she's fucking smart or nice or pretty at this point. So. So up one guy comes on the scene in the paranormal world because I told you, people are getting involved there. His name is Ben Davies and all they call him is a student of spiritualism. They don't. That doesn't like imply that he's the same priest or anything. It's just like, okay, me too. I like unemployment between jobs in 1921. I guess you could just have an interest and now you're the lead expert on it.

[Em McElhinney]

But I love that I get, you know what, in 2025 you can do that too. I've just decided.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, what is the term a student of spiritualism?

[Em McElhinney]

I'm gonna put that as my LinkedIn bio instead of podcaster, because I'm like, no, I'd rather be a student of spiritualism. I get it, Ben, I get it.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, so he met with the family, went inside the house, is talking to Minnie, he's heard that she's the culprit. Because how can you miss Minnie at this point with a roast like that every week in the paper?

[Em McElhinney]

Oh.

[Christine Schieffer]

And he starts talking, he's like, well, what kind of ghost would even be here? Like, do you have any death in the family? He finds out that there was a literal death in the family months before. Oh, oh, their fourth child. Well, I don't know the age range, but she was Old enough to have been married and had a kid. So she was. Oh, that could be like, 13.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

Fair.

[Em McElhinney]

But so, like, as far. So an older child than me.

[Christine Schieffer]

An older child.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

Named May.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

So there's many. And there's May. May is the one that's out with us.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

I saw different sources say how she died. It was kind of all over the place. So I don't. It doesn't really matter how she died. But they said, oh, your literal child who. She just died. Okay. So that would make sense why there's a haunting all of a sudden. And it would make sense why it's most affecting the prepubescent or adolescent kid in the house.

[Em McElhinney]

Sibling of that person, too.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. And the person who's about to, like, go through a lot of changes, like you said earlier.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

So Ben thought maybe May is trying to talk to the family and asks Minnie, hey, since you seem to be the most affected, can you try talking to me and see if anything knocks?

[Em McElhinney]

I am talking to you. Yeah, well, talking to me.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, as he's explaining, if you talk back to her, then maybe we'll hear more knocking. As he's saying that, they get three big knocks. And so he looks at Minnie and he's like, you're on, girl. Your turn. Like, time to do something. So Minnie closes her eyes, sticks her hands up in the air, and she says, ave, Marie, I was half expecting.

[Em McElhinney]

Apple to do, like, a little shooting star. I don't know. I was like, what's gonna happen?

[Christine Schieffer]

A little angel kisses me on the forehead. Aw. She sticks her hands up and she goes, may, is that you? And she starts crying as if she's hearing or witnessing something. And Ben goes, what's going on? Do you feel something around you? What's happening? And Minnie says, yes, May just spoke to me.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

And then she says, I can't tell you. The message is for mother. And then she runs over to her mom, and her mom is like, tell us what she said. What's going on?

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, like, spill it.

[Christine Schieffer]

No time for secrets. What did she say? So then May tells her mom, who is in the room with her, and Ben, who also guess who else is in the room. Apparently, like, 30 other people. There's like, what?

[Em McElhinney]

The night watch, the neighborhood watch, the.

[Christine Schieffer]

Entire watch, everyone came in to see if this guy was going to come up with something. And now.

[Em McElhinney]

Outrageous.

[Christine Schieffer]

So in front of all these people, she gives this message that's meant for her mother. And she says, as if she's May, tell her I am in heaven and quite happy. Tell her it was her prayers which got me here. I will look after her for the rest of my life. Rest of your life? Girl, you're already gone. But okay, I think she meant your mom's life anyway.

[Em McElhinney]

Mom's life.

[Christine Schieffer]

You know what I mean?

[Em McElhinney]

Like, yeah, I do know.

[Christine Schieffer]

For the rest of my life.

[Em McElhinney]

Can you imagine? You have one chance to speak from the afterlife and you, like, say something grammatically incorrect, or you flip the words and you're like, wait, wait, wait.

[Christine Schieffer]

All of a sudden. All of a sudden, the semantics are the only thing, people. So basically, she says this. Now, this is a good moment to reiterate that she's in a room full of people who are under pressure, staring at her, and she's 12. So maybe she felt pressured to say something and just kind of made it up. Maybe. But some think that this. It could have been many just saying what she thought others wanted to hear. Others think that maybe she really did gain some clairvoyance or. CLAIRE audience ORAL SOUND yeah. CLAIRE AUDIENCE maybe she heard maybe that she just gained that from being surrounded by these spirits. Either way, it didn't seem to be May at the end of this hall because this ghost still kept pelting her family with rocks, you know? So it's like.

[Em McElhinney]

Right. So even if it doesn't matter, the sister. Okay, I see. Yeah. And also, like, I'm imagining as a child being put on the spot, and then someone's saying, now put your hands up in front of the police for the constable. And then you say, now put your hands up and talk to your dead sister and see what she says. Like, oh, my God. First of all, I would start crying, and then when they would be. When everyone said, what did she say? What'd she say? What'd she say? Would say, yeah, I would probably be like, she's in heaven.

[Christine Schieffer]

I mean, even the early part where he says, like, oh, try talking to me. It's like that already puts pressure on her that, like, if she doesn't do it, she's failing in some ways. Yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

And it's like, now you've put it in her head that she has to hear a message. And it's just. That's still a lot. I don't know. I. I feel like that's unfair that they did that. They put her on the spot like that.

[Christine Schieffer]

And. And also, knowing myself at 12 for the attention, I would have done it for sure.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah. Or just like, to. To. To. To appease everyone in the room because they clearly Want you to say something.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. So anyway, that's something to consider. But if it is a ghost and it's saying, oh, I may then explain why you're scaring the entire town and hitting your family with rocks.

[Em McElhinney]

You know, thanks for bringing me. Have a huge rock collection up here. I'm just gonna keep throwing them at you.

[Christine Schieffer]

Mom.

[Em McElhinney]

Thanks for praying for me. What?

[Christine Schieffer]

Like, well, eventually. So it keeps happening after this. It's not like she talked to her and now, like, the. The stuff goes away. Like, the. The activity goes away. It goes away for the rest of that night, but then the next night it comes back.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

Eventually, so many rocks are hitting the house that every single window is smashed. People are hearing the sounds from 100 yards away. And even creepier, a lot of people can't tell if the sounds are coming from inside or outside of the house.

[Em McElhinney]

Ew. We don't like that.

[Christine Schieffer]

Eventually, it was seemingly coming from both. Like, it started outside, then they started hearing sounds on the inside. And eventually they just couldn't decipher what was going on.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, my Lord.

[Christine Schieffer]

Then their cottage is getting these knockings that are so loud that the foundation is shaking. And people are even trying to shake the house themselves to see if it's just, like, a loose house or something.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, no. They're, like, kicking the baseboards, like, seems pretty sturdy to me. Like, stop trying to knock my fucking house over.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, also, what if you were right and the house just falls now?

[Em McElhinney]

What the fuck are you gonna do now?

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, insurance would be wild. Oh, I pushed a house over. What? Yeah, yeah, also push the house over. Also, I love the idea that one newspaper talked about how there was this guy who was like £200 and he kept trying to throw himself into the wal of the house to try to knock it over just to prove that it was shaky on its own. But. But the thing is, no matter how.

[Em McElhinney]

Hard he was trying to break into.

[Christine Schieffer]

Wallace, very, literally, very.

[Em McElhinney]

You know that I fell asleep doing that last night.

[Christine Schieffer]

Did it work?

[Em McElhinney]

I think so, because I don't remember falling asleep, so. And you know what? I. I had insomnia. My insomnia kicked in yesterday. So I went to bed early, like, for me, which was like 10:08, and I, at like, 12:30am still couldn't sleep. And I was like, oh, my God, I have to break through Wallace or break.

[Christine Schieffer]

Just gotta give it a shot.

[Em McElhinney]

Break into Wallace. And I don't remember anything else, so it must have worked.

[Christine Schieffer]

See, at the very least, it gets you sleepy.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, I didn't even think about it till just now and then I was like, wait a minute. I tried that last night, and I pretty sure it worked.

[Christine Schieffer]

I think that's. I. That's why it felt like it was. Because when you were. When you asked me like, oh, dude, are you falling? Are you going straight into actively dreaming? I was like, I don't know. I think I was just trying to fall asleep. And. And it. It eventually became more.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, you, like, became more lucid. That's so interesting. I mean, anyway, that helped me last night. Thank you.

[Christine Schieffer]

Anyway, if anyone else has tried breaking into walls since our. Our last episode, if you don't know what that means, write in if it's helpful, because I'd like to know if I love the case.

[Em McElhinney]

And I'd also love to know if any. I mean, not to, you know, discourage you and your creativity, but I'm curious if anyone else does something similar, like if there are, like, other things. Like, I don't know. But okay, so we had talked about if it's breaking into Wallace or breaking through, and I said, breaking through makes more sense. But then when I was doing it, I said breaking into Wallace, and that's what you said originally the first time. I don't know. So anyway, yeah, we could all take it back.

[Christine Schieffer]

We could all universally come up with a phrase. I don't really know either. I just. In my head, I'm just.

[Em McElhinney]

When we say break, when we say it, maybe we just see what, like, sound like what feels right. Yeah. What feels right. Right. Anyway, sorry. That's what this guy's doing. He's breaking into Wallace.

[Christine Schieffer]

He's literally breaking through the wall. And. But. And he's doing it to prove that the house is shaky, but it's not. So that's at least one piece of evidence of, like, we're trying with all of our might to knock this thing over. So where are these knocks coming from? Like, is this thing sitting on a tectonic plate and just rocking. Rocking around. So the town is still on 24 hour surveillance. They don't have any answers. The local sergeant, the constable, whatever. He was so, like, befuddled about everything, I guess is the best word. He was just, like, so strained that just like out of an SVU episode, like, his superiors had to send him home. They were like, go home. You need a break.

[Em McElhinney]

I told you, this guy was. He was not cut out for the job.

[Christine Schieffer]

He was really stressed about it.

[Em McElhinney]

I knew it.

[Christine Schieffer]

And also, I don't know if it was like, he couldn't figure it out on like, on his normal nine to five. Or like, was this the. The guy who was doing overnights every single night and just being pelted with rocks?

[Em McElhinney]

Too close to the case.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You're too close to this. You gotta.

[Em McElhinney]

Or was it like he was trying to get the night guard or whatever they're called, the neighborhood watch, under control and was like, these people are making me lose. Like I can't handle this situation anymore. Like maybe it wasn't about the ghost at all. Maybe it was all about all these damn people.

[Christine Schieffer]

And I also wonder like, what the adrenaline does to your body if you're doing it for days on end, losing hours of sleep because you're, you're. We're around the clock and you're always constantly on like another level wondering if you're gonna get hit by a rock.

[Em McElhinney]

But yeah, you're on high on hyper vigilant mode.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. So I think you just needed a break. So he's losing it. The neighbors are getting frustrated because they're not coming up with any answers. No, Mr. Bowen, he's also losing it. And every time he hears a knock, he's starting to run out with a shotgun and just shooting into the direction of the sound.

[Em McElhinney]

Haven't we learned about this? I know, let's not.

[Christine Schieffer]

And eventually they. It was getting even worse because one time they came home to find that their heavy shutters. No. Were. Were no longer nailed into the house and were piled on the veranda like stacked on top of each other.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh no. Like poltergeist style.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. At one point, a friend of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle who was. Knew he'd show up a big paranormal guy. Guy. His friend Harry Moore came to investigate. This is not Harry Price.

[Em McElhinney]

Right.

[Christine Schieffer]

Okay.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay. I was like, there was another Harry. Okay, Harry Moore.

[Christine Schieffer]

Harry Moore came to investigate. I. I don't know if it was like on behalf of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle or something, but he showed up. He stayed at the house for three days. He brought several assistants with him. Apparently they came up with like traps to try to like, figure out.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh my.

[Christine Schieffer]

The rock pelting. They couldn't come up with anything. They never got an answer. All they could determine was that it was not of Human Agent Agency, therefore it was supernatural agen. And he was convinced forever that it was in fact a. Wow. And I really. You never see this. This is like straight out of like the end of Hannah Montana where some of the critics were really hating on Minnie and they were like, she's obviously doing this. Blah, blah, Blah. And the whole town came to her defense and they were like, you don't mess with her, blah, blah, blah.

[Em McElhinney]

You don't mess with Minnie.

[Christine Schieffer]

They even, I mean I honestly, I wonder if the town was defending her or defending themselves because they were like.

[Em McElhinney]

We'Ve been on watch for protecting this family. Back off.

[Christine Schieffer]

And also it's like we've been on patrol, like we've been on the ground and so many of us have been literally surrounding this house for days that if it was Minnie, we would have seen that we've been keeping tabs on the whole family.

[Em McElhinney]

Right. So it almost questions their intelligence too.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. So I don't know if they were really protecting many or protecting themselves. Whatever they were, like we would have seen something. We've been watching all them through the open windows. It was not her.

[Em McElhinney]

Eventually watching them through all their open windows. Sometimes we even took the shutters off if we couldn't see well enough inside.

[Christine Schieffer]

So eventually during an invest or an interrogation with the constables, maybe the new one who's on the clock. Oh, Minnie does eventually confess to throwing some of the rocks. But, but that she says that they were separate from a time like it was, I think it was just like a bad confession where like it now no one can change the whole story.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

But she said, oh, I have done that in the past to scare my sister in law as a joke. But like I've never, but I'm not part of this. But it just, it just made everything kind of muddied.

[Em McElhinney]

It's harder to believe now because even, even if it was just that and you tell yourself that it's still like okay, but she knew how to scare somebody by doing that. That's already like quite a big step in the direction of H. Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

And I wish I knew more about like okay, so she was getting pelted with rocks. Like is she just telling her parents that? Or did anyone see rocks appear out of nowhere?

[Em McElhinney]

Or was she doing that kind of like, oh, she's bouncing it off surfaces and like ow.

[Christine Schieffer]

Or just like throwing it at herself.

[Em McElhinney]

And you know, listen, teenagers are so good at like this, you know, like I, I never, I just never. Folks never underestimate the creativity of a teenager who wants attention. I'm not saying that's what's happening necessarily. I'm just saying in my mind, like I wouldn't put it past someone that age.

[Christine Schieffer]

At the very least, if you're around the clock for an entire week watching someone else's house outside, wondering if you're gonna get hit with rocks. It has crossed your mind if it was anyone in the house. It's crossed your mind in all those hours.

[Em McElhinney]

Well, and it seems like where the rocks not coming from. Like if they were all watching. Did rocks just not get thrown during that time or were rocks.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, I, I, you would think that would get mentioned that like if it's raining rocks, why isn't cannot. But it must be raining rocks while they're there because they keep hearing the sounds and but I wonder if she.

[Em McElhinney]

Has them inside or something and is like yeah, throwing them out of chimney. You know, imagine you throw it up the chimney and then it like yeah. Bounces down the roof. This is me planning my next hijinks.

[Christine Schieffer]

I'm sure this would do numbers on mythbusters for sure. Right?

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, good point.

[Christine Schieffer]

So this led some people to her. Sorry. Her confession of that she has thrown rocks in the past to scare her sister in law. And we don't know the timeline on that. Like did it muddy up the context? That led newspapers to stop reporting on the events altogether, concluding that it was a hoax. But the townspeople persisted in defending her, being like we have been watching her non stop. She's not doing this. Then the rumor began among the police. We think that maybe it wasn't many, but it was the neighbors themselves.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh shit.

[Christine Schieffer]

As you said earlier, you need one shitty kid in the yard. Throw rocks at moments when no one's looking. But they thought that enough neighbors were in cahoots with each other that they would cover for each other and be like, okay, no one's looking through now. Or oh, so the cops think that a lot of people were in on it together and it would even take.

[Em McElhinney]

Two or three of like stupid teenagers to do something like that.

[Christine Schieffer]

The cops said something like they thought five or six of the neighbors were up to it. They, they referred to them as people who were sympathetic to the ghosts. Like sympathizers.

[Em McElhinney]

Ghost sympathizer.

[Christine Schieffer]

And they thought that they were doing it to get possession of the house. Like maybe if they did it long enough it would scare the family away and they could take the property.

[Em McElhinney]

Maybe just like break enough windows and maybe you can have it.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, if you break enough windows, if you break enough of the house, eventually there is no house left to even own.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, you keep throwing that 200 pound guy into the wall over and over again.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, you get it.

[Em McElhinney]

Something will knock loose.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, so as these rumors spread of like is it the neighbors? Is it Minnie? Basically her parents were like, we have to get Many out of here. Because maybe, maybe she is responsible, maybe she's not, and she's really actually being affected by ghosts. We should get her away from the ghosts too. So her parents send her to live with grandma for a month. Grandma lives 40 miles away in a town called, I hope I'm saying it right. Glenn Ennis. Glenn Innis. But she lives. She lives nearby. Far away enough, but nearby. You know what I mean?

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, yeah. A drive.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, a drive. And while Minnie was gone at Grandma's, the Bowen house had no more activity. However, the first night at Grandma's, Grandma's house is getting pelted with stones.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

The neighbors at Grandma's have heard about the guy Ra ghost through the newspapers. So as soon as they hear glass and oh, no, like they run out.

[Em McElhinney]

And.

[Christine Schieffer]

And because they've been hearing about these sounds and like houses shaking and all this stuff, so they run out immediately. The police come out immediately to investigate. Pretty much the same situation happens over here. And one of the neighbors even said that the sounds sounded like they were caused by an ax striking a heavy wall.

[Em McElhinney]

An ax strike. Oh my gosh, that's a lot.

[Christine Schieffer]

That's like a big ass thud.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, that's intense. Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

And Minnie is at grandma's for a month. Month. And so all these people are now being terrorized for a month. The same, the same way that these.

[Em McElhinney]

Other neighbors and those other people are like realizing how good it is to just have a moment of peace.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, I know. They're like, let it be someone else's problem. And because it had already been excused by a lot of newspapers as like a hoax by a teenager, nobody was covering this anymore.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, right. Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

So the neighbors are getting much less help than the people in Gyra were.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, no, no.

[Christine Schieffer]

And it's for a month non stop of rocks and the window shattering. A poor grandma, by the way. She's like, I shouldn't be dealing with this. And the neighbors by the end of this month hate Minnie. They're like, I don't even know if you're responsible.

[Em McElhinney]

Poor baby. She.

[Christine Schieffer]

It's like, first of all, you're ugly. Second of all, you're loser. Third of all, your ghosts are annoying.

[Em McElhinney]

This is so sad.

[Christine Schieffer]

So the neighbors end up hating her. They literally start protesting by moving out of their own houses and threatening to the police that they're not coming back to the town until Minnie's gone on.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh my gosh. I love that they could just do that.

[Christine Schieffer]

I know. And so Grandma basically is told your grandkids Got to get out of here. So she kicks Minnie out, Minnie goes back home to Guyra and immediately grandma's house is fine again. And the activity picks up at her parents house.

[Em McElhinney]

That's a toughie because it's like, well maybe the ghost is attached to her or maybe that's attached to that.

[Christine Schieffer]

Or is she responsible? You'll never know. But they do know at least now that Minnie is somehow the focus of.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, that does seem to be clear.

[Christine Schieffer]

Eventually however, so she goes back home and things start picking up again. Eventually it does fade away again. And many think like was that because the attention died out or is that because Minnie grew out of adolescence and so it wasn't as intense or did many just get bored, you know?

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

One source said that the. They had also witnessed other clairvoyant acts from Minnie at different points. Someone. It was. I got this from one source. They said they had seen her like levitate shit in the. And like. So I think that was just neighbors spreading rumors. Yeah, because another source said the legend is that the activity continued and she saw stones pelting the window. No other source talked about that. Okay. But most, the most common thing that I saw throughout the sources is that Mini grew up to have a very normal life. Unfortunately she ends up dying by getting hit by a car and like decapitated apparently. What, what did Michael Scott say? Her.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh my God.

[Christine Schieffer]

Was dictated from her body or something.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh my God.

[Christine Schieffer]

Like that. I only saw one source say that, but I know that she was at least hit by a car and then maybe later died. Responsible for her death.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

And one source said decapitated. I don't know if that was again just like a stretch.

[Em McElhinney]

Levitating.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, her head levitating.

[Em McElhinney]

Same guy. Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

So they will. I will say current occupants of the house say that there is no activity. But also that's because many's not there a girl. So that makes good.

[Em McElhinney]

Doesn't point. Yeah, there was an activity there when she was gone anyway. Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

And the guy of Ghost, as it has been named is one of Australia's best known cases of a poltergeist. And in the same year 1921, a silent movie was actually made about the events there called the Guyra Ghost Mystery. But I will tell you it is considered lost media.

[Em McElhinney]

No, not again.

[Christine Schieffer]

And very little is known about it, although it is rumored.

[Em McElhinney]

I need the commercials.

[Christine Schieffer]

The commercials. In 1921, there's cocaine in your soda. It'll make you feel better.

[Em McElhinney]

Here toddlers drink this cocaine. So before you head to the mines in the morning.

[Christine Schieffer]

I know. Are you 12 and need a wedding ring? Okay, so it's. There's very little known about it, but it is rumored, which we will never know for sure, that the Bowen family actually made an appearance in the movie.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, cool.

[Christine Schieffer]

And the other rumor is that the original location, the Bowen residence, was also got like a. A cameo.

[Em McElhinney]

Cameo. I love that. We could just create rumors about it because nobody will ever know.

[Christine Schieffer]

In it also, she's supposed to levitate. I think so.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, in it she also, according to me. What was the other thing we said? Oh, I don't want to say the decapitated thing in it. That doesn't happen.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, that doesn't happen for sure. No, no deaths. Actually, everything's totally fine.

[Em McElhinney]

Actually. It's just a really fun like 13 going on 30 style pre teen comedy.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. So it's assumed at this point that Minnie made up the ghost or it was attached to her, but we will never know. Although I will say the last thing I'll mention is there was one source that had a statement I didn't see anybody talking about. And I feel like this is important. I'm just going to read this. This is from. Is this from. Oh, this is from a different website than the Sunday Morning Carol. This is from the Star.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay. And another fabulous, reputable, reputable source. Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

So this is while the guards were still surrounding the house and there was stones getting thrown everywhere. Okay, These were only stones. These were the only stones thrown or noise heard by the constable during his stay. On the following night, he organized a secret guard. I never saw anywhere else but a fucking secret guard.

[Em McElhinney]

Is that what the night guard? I keep calling them that.

[Christine Schieffer]

Maybe it's weird. That's what it is.

[Em McElhinney]

Their neighborhood night guard.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, on. On the following night, he organized a secret guard including some of the leading and most trusted residents of Guyra. Oh, this is when he' recruiting the neighbors to.

[Em McElhinney]

To help watch.

[Christine Schieffer]

But nothing occurred. The next night, in company with the local sergeant, the constable took up a position in the bush on the southern side of the house. And then a respectable local farmer, Mr. Star, he watched the northern side and saw a girl throwing several stones at the cottage. He informed the police. So this random farmer who was on watch, he saw this girl throwing stones. He informed the police who questioned the girl and she at first denied any knowledge of stone throwing day. But when confronted with Mr. Star in the presence of her parents, she admitted to throwing the stones. The girl afterwards admitted that she was responsible for the knocking on the wall. Which she affected by striking the inner walls at night with a stick when people were keeping watch outside. She remarked, I was always careful that I was not watched or seen by anybody.

[Em McElhinney]

I used my mother's decorative stick so nobody would see my tool.

[Christine Schieffer]

So apparently in that one article, it seems like they found the person. But then also, did they really. Or did she want attention? Because how is that little girl using a decorative stick and hitting a wall so bad at shaking the foundations?

[Em McElhinney]

So is she saying she. Is this a different girl than the one that lives in. It's not mini.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, they're saying that they just saw an. When they were on watch, they saw a girl outside throwing rocks.

[Em McElhinney]

So then when she. When she explained the stick, was she saying at her own house or that she was like, hitting.

[Christine Schieffer]

I think she said she was hitting Minnie's house with a stick. But then also going unnoticed. I don't know, like inside it or whatever. For all I know, this is just like someone like trying to like, claim credibility. But.

[Em McElhinney]

But it also seems like if it seems like a kid in trouble wouldn't admit to it, like on the spot like that. I mean, I don't know. Maybe not, but I feel like a scared little girl. I would be like, I didn't do it if I didn't do it.

[Christine Schieffer]

But no, I would be in full denial. But also, maybe she was. I don't know. I. I have no idea. But it's another theory that I don't see anyone talking about. That's someone straight up confessed.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah. Yeah. Weird. I wonder why that's only there. Was that written back then too? Like back in the day when this was all getting covered?

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, weird.

[Christine Schieffer]

Anyway, that is the Guyra ghost.

[Em McElhinney]

Wow. Okay. That was a wild one. I'd never heard of it before. I like it.

[Christine Schieffer]

Also, I will tell you another. Another ghost I'll be covering soon because I discovered it in. In my research. Something called the Humpty Doo Poltergeist. So get ready.

[Em McElhinney]

It's like these never end, you know? Like, I know true crime never ends, but your. Your section too just gets dumber and dumber, more interesting by the day. Let's put it that way.

[Christine Schieffer]

I. I definitely. I saw that in one of the newspaper articles. They were like, step, step aside, Humpty Doo Poltergeist. And I went, what?

[Em McElhinney]

Actually, will you step back?

[Christine Schieffer]

Step back real quick. Step back real quick.

[Em McElhinney]

Can I get a quick interview before you head out? Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

So anyway, a few questions that's coming at some point.

[Em McElhinney]

Well, I'm very excited for that. So folks, I know you are mid text saying submitting your topic idea to do the Humpty Dumpty. What is it?

[Christine Schieffer]

Humpty.

[Em McElhinney]

Do the Humpty doo. So sounds like we're on it, folks. Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

Look, if you ever told me when we started this podcast, one day we would be offered to do an ad about Mac and cheese.

[Em McElhinney]

I would, I'm gonna, I would cry.

[Christine Schieffer]

I'm so excited we get to talk about Goodles. It is the honestly, some of the best Mac and cheese. Allison and I have been eating through it.

[Em McElhinney]

So they have like some grown up flavors, right, like truffle or hatch chili, but then they also just have like cheddar, you know like they have.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, just like old school. Yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

M's more the old school. I'm more like, ooh, let's mix it up and make it weird.

[Christine Schieffer]

You know, Allison is the mix it up person. It works really well because we each get our own flavor and we know.

[Em McElhinney]

It'S a perfect combo. Like Leona will take the cheddar and I'm taking the cacio e pepe.

[Christine Schieffer]

And it's good for you because there are 14 grams of protein, 7 grams of fiber with prebiotics and and 21 vitamins and minerals from real plant sources.

[Em McElhinney]

It's also a low glycemic index food. It's steady energy instead of the carb crash. But it tastes just like a box of Mac and cheese. It's also kosher and clean label purity award certified. So don't worry. They even have vegan and gluten free options so everybody can enjoy.

[Christine Schieffer]

Pick some up when you're out shopping. Goodles is available nationwide at major grocery stores, Target and Walmart. And we know you're gonna love Goodles as much as we we do.

[Em McElhinney]

M I recently learned that sleep is a lot more important to your overall health than any of us think. Your mental clarity, your mental health, just your livelihood in general. Proper sleep can increase focus, boost energy and improve your mood. It cannot be understated in my opinion. And that's why we are so excited to talk about Beam's Dream Powder. A science backed healthy hot cocoa for sleep.

[Christine Schieffer]

This bedtime essential is so decadent and totally guilt free and available in delicious flavors. We have the brownie batter, but there's also sea salt caramel. There's vanilla chai and the Beam dream powder original flavor cinnamon cocoa. I really like the brownie batter.

[Em McElhinney]

No cinnamon cocoa is the one cuz it's the original one.

[Christine Schieffer]

Other sleep aids can cause next day Grogginess. But Dream contains a powerful all natural blend of reishi, magnesium, L theanine, apigenin and melatonin to help you fall asleep, stay asleep and wake up refreshed.

[Em McElhinney]

It really does work and it's really delicious.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, it's a, it's a wonderful headspace to put yourself in. It all starts with a nice hot, hot cup of cocoa. If you want to try Beam's best selling Dream Powder, get up to 40 off for a limited time when you go to shop beam.com ATWD and use code ATWD at checkout. That's shop b-e a m.com ATWWD and use code ATWWD for up to 40 off.

[Em McElhinney]

Now I have a story for you as well. M and this is the story of Patsy Rice. Right?

[Christine Schieffer]

Okay.

[Em McElhinney]

Patricia Virginia. Patsy Wright to be specific. So Patsy was born February 24, 1944 in Texas where she grew up alongside her sister Sally. Their father, Thomas Bolton, made a significant living in the oil and gas industry in Texas. And he was a passionate history buff that his daughters described as an avid reader. And Sally, so Patsy, sister, sister had described him having this huge, I mean my dream, I think a lot of probably our age, our generation's dream have this indoor beautiful floor to ceiling library of books. Not just decorative sticks, but yeah, the bell, the, the with the ladder, the whole nine yards. But anyway, he had this like beautiful personal library with floor to ceiling bookshelves and he'd already read all the books in the shelves. Now that's interesting.

[Christine Schieffer]

That's. How do you have the time?

[Em McElhinney]

You are probably a rich man in the oil and gas industry.

[Christine Schieffer]

That makes sense. Well, I also think about how you can. You're barely putting a decorative stick on your built ins but he's got every book and he's read them all. That's amazing. That's. You should feel bad about yourself.

[Em McElhinney]

Actually I do, I do, I actively do. Thank you though for affirming it. Yeah, sorry my job takes more time than I guess making others drill down in the 1940s. Yeah, sorry, I'm a little busy. But I guess not Thomas. And I'm not bitter about it. It's fine. So anyway, eventually Thomas decided to dedicate a business to his passion and he opened a museum kind of museum, a wax museum.

[Christine Schieffer]

Now shut the up.

[Em McElhinney]

I will not now.

[Christine Schieffer]

Christine Schieffer. I talk, tell you when I tell you. There's nothing I love slash hate more than a wax museum.

[Em McElhinney]

Love, slash hate. That is precisely how I feel. Thank you.

[Christine Schieffer]

There is Nothing. I mean, my wallet hates to see a wax museum coming because whether or not I'm having fun, I'm paying for it.

[Em McElhinney]

You are buying some merch. You are buying a souvenir.

[Christine Schieffer]

That's exactly right.

[Em McElhinney]

Wow. Well, so he created a wax museum, and it featured wax figures which represented Thomas's vision of Texas history, like Davy Crockett, famous Confederate generals. He was also hugely inspired by Western gunslinger films. And the museum reportedly opened with an exhibit dedicated to 300 antique weapons used in the historical Southwest United States.

[Christine Schieffer]

Okay, so remember when I said, oh, my wallet hates to see me? I'm not going out of that one.

[Em McElhinney]

This one we'll do. Skip on our road trip.

[Christine Schieffer]

I don't know.

[Em McElhinney]

Another exhibit displayed, quote, 230 specimens of barbed wire.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, that's actually pretty. That feels like someone's on the spectrum. That feels like a special interest.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay, so now here's where I add a researcher's note that Saoirse added, which says, I grew up farming and still had to look into this. It turns out that barbed wire fencing can be twisted in different patterns, which has evolved over time, and people are very into this.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yes.

[Em McElhinney]

There's even an entire barbed wire museum with over 2000 barbed wire pieces in Lacrosse, Kansas.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, I. I could see my.

[Em McElhinney]

Give me that museum. I'm going to.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, give me one night when I need a dopamine, dopamine fix and hyperxation.

[Em McElhinney]

Niche, like barbed wire formation. I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in.

[Christine Schieffer]

I literally wrote in my phone, I have a list of things I like. If I ever have a night off and I need something to hyper fixate on, here are some new topics.

[Em McElhinney]

Fantastic.

[Christine Schieffer]

Last night I wrote how to tie knots, and if you think I'm not going to change that to how to tie barbed wire.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, way, way.

[Christine Schieffer]

Are you kidding me?

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, forget knots. That you've got knots the rest of your life. Barbed wire. Now that's a hot ticket item right there.

[Christine Schieffer]

Now, that I could get into. Okay, I'm going. I'm coming back to this museum just for this.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay. Lacrosse, Kansas. Do you guys want to go to do a live show? Wherever that is, bring your barbed wire.

[Christine Schieffer]

And we'll all just do like a.

[Em McElhinney]

A little. A little knitting circle.

[Christine Schieffer]

A little knitting circle. While I would do our show.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay. So other figures on display at this museum were popular celebrities like Debbie Reynolds, along with religious figures, including an entire life size replica of Leonardo da Vinci's the Last Supper. A wax one, I presume.

[Christine Schieffer]

I. Yeah, I should hope so.

[Em McElhinney]

I would hope so at this point.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, I would be kind of pissed if like I paid money to go to a wax museum. And then not everything was photo.

[Em McElhinney]

They just photocopied the Last Supper. And you were like, wait, what?

[Christine Schieffer]

It's how I imagine people feel that our clients of the cake boss and then everything is Rice Krispies and PVC pipe. I'm like, I paid for. For cake.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, exactly.

[Christine Schieffer]

So I would pay for wax. I'd like to see wax.

[Em McElhinney]

I get it, I get it. So Sally and Patsy eventually went to work for their dad's museums, which was pretty cool. So Sally ran the office and Patsy was in pr and this was a major success. They were really good at what they did. And so when Thomas passed away, Patsy and Sally inherited their dad's business. Together, the sisters were very business minded. They grew the museum and its popularity through the late 70s and into the 80s. They made it very modern, they made it very, very hip with figures like Michael Jackson at the time, very trendy new wax figures for people to come look at. And when they unveiled an Elvis Presley exhibit On the, get this one year anniversary of his death, over 8, 000 people lined up to pay tribute to.

[Christine Schieffer]

Okay, okay.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah. In January of 1987, Patsy and Sally opened a second location of the museum called the Plaza of West Wax.

[Christine Schieffer]

I feel like we could have done something cooler than that, but.

[Em McElhinney]

Okay, but doesn't plaza feel very 80s?

[Christine Schieffer]

I think everyone wanted like a plaza.

[Em McElhinney]

A Plaza. Like it just feels very like 80s new, like new 80s. Like there's tile and stuff.

[Christine Schieffer]

Maybe this is older than Plaza, but I feel the same way, or I think my grandparents felt the same way about the word lounge or club.

[Em McElhinney]

Club. Club is. Yeah, club. Yeah. That's a big one.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, let's go to the lounge.

[Em McElhinney]

That feels very 60s, doesn't it?

[Christine Schieffer]

Does it? And then Plaza 80s. What would today be? I don't think.

[Em McElhinney]

I don't think we. I don't think we know until like 30 years from now when we go, oh, that's embarrassing.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, okay.

[Em McElhinney]

Probably like Netflix and Chill. I don't know. Bedrot. I don't know. There's a lot of options.

[Christine Schieffer]

You don't know why? Because Bedrot sounds like bedrock from the Flintstones, which was a real place.

[Em McElhinney]

So you can have Bedrot. Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

Okay, so at the Plaza, are we also. Is there food and everything there too? Or is this like a plaza, like a mall? Because my first thought is we could rename it Wax and Snacks.

[Em McElhinney]

You Know, like Wetzels, pretzels. We'll go head to head. Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

They won't see us coming. They don't stand a chance.

[Em McElhinney]

They won't. We'll kick them right out of this tiled plaza before you know it. So actually, this museum, the Plaza of Wax, open in San Antonio, across the street from the Alamo Historical Historical Site. And the sisters prided themselves on thriving in an industry that was largely dying off throughout the US with, you know, museums. They put together a management, advertising, like, social team. They put everything together to make this a successful business. Sally was a socialite. Her friends described her as very charming, very beautiful, and although she grew up privileged and co owned businesses worth millions of dollars, people always called her very downfall to earth. She got along with everyone she met. And as for her sister Patsy, who's the subject of this story, Patsy herself, in 1987 was twice divorced with two children. She had her son William, who was nicknamed Wayne, and Leslie her daughter. And she had big plans for the future. She had recently begun the process of purchasing a multi acre ranch where she planned to live with her prized horses. So, okay, she's making moves. And keep in mind she and her sister have this multi million dollar thriving business. So they are. And she's twice divorced. She's like, imma do me. Okay, good for her. Right? So Patsy was pretty new to rodeo competitions. She was training on cutting her horse. Her horse's name was Dry Leo. And cutting here refers to a horse used to cut or isolate individual livestock from the herd. And so this is according to Saoirse's notes. So cutting, sorting competitions involve isolating specific cows or animals from big groups to demonstrate your skill as a herder. So you're using this horse to contain an individual animal, if that makes sense. It's apparently an extremely athletic sport. It requires a lot of training with your horse. And this is something she was just very passionate about. She'd actually won one of these competitions, which is really hard to do, and was, yeah, was eager to do more. So Patsy's city friends weren't so thrilled that she was living out on a ranch, ranch by herself. They were a little worried about that. And According to a 1989 article by Glenna Whitley and D D Magazine, which I'm like, I don't know. Is that Dallas? I have no idea what D magazine is.

[Christine Schieffer]

I don't know.

[Em McElhinney]

Can you look it up?

[Christine Schieffer]

D4 Damn magazine.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, it is, it is Dallas.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, look at you.

[Em McElhinney]

It still exists. Well, so According to a 1989 article in D magazine, which was written by Glenna Witch, a friend actually called Patsy, like during the time that she moved to this ranch, a friend called Patsy and told her about a dream that two men murdered her. She was like, I had a dream you got murdered, Patsy, I don't want you to move to this ranch. And Patsy laughed and was like, oh, you're just worried, you know, I'll be fine. Ah, she was, for what it's worth, very tough, very resilient, self sufficient. She like didn't want people's anxieties to stop her from living her dreams. So, you know, I can respect that. Her daughter Leslie even said in an interview, she was so alive, like she was just one of those people that wanted to be out in the world and out in nature. And in autumn of 1987, she was actually living in a temporary rental while the ranch purchase was pending. And it was late October of 87, Patsy and Sally, the sisters, were preparing for Halloween events at the museum, museums. That's right. Even In October of 87, they were on top of the millennial Halloween fall craze.

[Christine Schieffer]

Love that, love it.

[Em McElhinney]

They were ahead of their time. They featured figures from horror classics, live actors in costumes. So like jump scare stuff. And newspapers later reported because this was ahead of the times. Like I feel like 87 was early for like a jump scare attraction that had a lot of like thought and.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh yeah, I mean I, I, I don't, I don't personally remember jump scare attractions being the way that they are today.

[Em McElhinney]

Like when I was so involved. Yeah, exactly. And so basically they had this huge event planned. Newspapers reported that 40,000 people attended the nine.

[Christine Schieffer]

Holy.

[Em McElhinney]

40,000.

[Christine Schieffer]

Wow.

[Em McElhinney]

And so this was a hit, a smash success. They were very, very successful. So on Thursday, October 22, she went home after a successful dress rehearsal. They're even rehear this Halloween event, which I love. They take it seriously, their work.

[Christine Schieffer]

They don't around. They don't around.

[Em McElhinney]

I appreciate that. Hours later, Sally's husband Steve. So Sally is their, Sally is her sister. I'm sorry. So this is Sally and Steve. They're asleep. They wake up to a phone call at 3:00am okay. Of course it's a landline. So, so Sally's husband answers the phone, hands it to Sally and it's Patsy on the other end of the line and she is completely frantic. She tells her sister Sally that she had taken some cold medicine and something was really wrong and she could barely breathe.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh fuck.

[Em McElhinney]

Patsy sounded desperate, she sounded sick, she sounded faint. So Sally hung up. Immediately dialed 911, then realized, too late. She didn't know Sally's new rental address because it was a temporary rental. Mental. Oh, my God. My anxiety. Like pre find my friends. I just can't even imagine.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, my God.

[Em McElhinney]

So she and Steve jumped in the car. They, like, rushed over there because they had to go get the address. Thank God they knew where it was. Sally didn't have a key, though. So Steve had to run to the back of the house. He found one of the windows unlocked and climbed his way in. He then ran to the front door to let his wife Sally in. And. And Sally found her sister Patsy in her bedroom of this rental apartment, dead. And she was dead.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, no.

[Em McElhinney]

So they realized as they got to her that she wasn't breathing. And Sally called 911 again. They didn't realize. They didn't know whether she had passed away yet or not, but she was not breathing. And so Sally called 911. Steve began CPR, and he's interviewed in an episode of. Of Unsolved Mysteries. I watched and it's. You can tell this was traumatic as it would be. Right. But it's just very chilling to hear him describe it. He said he alternated between chest compressions and mouth to mouth. And he said every time he gave Patsy breath, this green fluid would come out of her mouth and into his mouth. And he said he would just keep spitting it out and then keep trying cpr like he was just spitting also in the zone and trying to physically save her.

[Christine Schieffer]

That's a good guy. Because I. I don't. I don't. I feel like I would have panicked me, like, what the. In my mouth.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah. And he just said he kept spinning it out and kept going. When paramedics arrived, they initially thought Patsy was responding to intervention, but then they realized that the readings on the monitor were only from the chest compressions. They weren't sustained by her actual heart. So Sally rode with Patsy to the hospital in the ambulance, but there was nothing anybody could. She had passed away. It seemed impossible to family and friends, especially having just talked to her, you know, and seeing her the night before. She was only 43 years old at this point. Had everything going for her, had huge dreams. There was nothing wrong with her health wise that anybody knew about. And so a heart attack or a stroke just seemed unlikely to have killed her so quickly, you know. So a brief death notice was published in the newspaper the following day, requesting donations to charity in Patsy's name instead of flowers. And Memorial was held at a Baptist church That Sunday. So for eight days, her family just had to kind of wait because they just had questions and no answers, and they had to wait for Patsy's autopsy results to come through. So the exam, which tested for thousands of substances in Patsy's body at the time of her death, revealed lethal levels of strychnine. Strychnine is a chemical naturally occurring in certain plants in South Asia and Australia. And extremely small doses of strychnine were used historically in medicine as a sort of stimulant. I mean, we just talked about cocaine. So, you know, things change. People in the late 1800s and early 1900s apparently used it for athletic performance or to stay awake for a long time, like a stimulant. And allegedly even for sexually enhancing your experience. Sure. Today it's used as a pesticide commonly used to kill rats. So, you know, I wouldn't try that out at home, folks. If you're thinking of making maybe a little DIY Viagra, don't. Don't use your rat poison, please. It's not worth it. So today it's a pesticide, and strychnine is actually a very serious poison. And if you. It's like when you say rat poison, that's why rat poison is, you know, poisonous. It uses strychnine. So if you do accidentally inhale it, it is a serious poison. And if it. If it gets into your body, it can have pretty serious consequences, serious side effects. If people put it intentionally into food and drinks, or if it has been snorted or accidentally injected into the vein, when mixed with another drug like cocaine or heroin, it can kill you. And a little strychnine. According to the cdc, only a little strychnine is needed to cause serious effects. And a person who is experiencing strychnine poisoning usually develop symptoms between 15, 15 minutes and an hour. And the way that it works is that the poison blocks nerve signals to the muscles, and the person experiences severe painful and uncontrollable muscle spasms, which are referred to as, quote, awake seizures in some medical publications.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, my God.

[Em McElhinney]

It's an incredibly horrible way to die. Brain function and consciousness are not affected. So you're still fully conscious and aware the whole time.

[Christine Schieffer]

Time.

[Em McElhinney]

Yep. And eventually your lungs. Remember, she said she couldn't breathe. Your lungs no longer function, and death is often a result of respiratory failure. Yeah, sometimes it's kidney or liver failure, but it's a very gruesome way to die and also a very rare way to die. It's not something that happens by accident. Very Often. And so they knew as they did the autopsy that this had been intentional.

[Christine Schieffer]

Wow.

[Em McElhinney]

So investigators needed to determine how the strychnine got into her system. And thank God she had called her sister and said, I took cold medicine. Remember, she took cold medicine. And so they said, oh, my God, it's NyQuil. She had it in her NyQuil. So on a hunch, an officer at the scene had even bagged the NyQuil bottle, thinking it might be evidence. And so it was in storage, and they were able to test it. And when they tested the NyQuil, it revealed massive amounts of strychnine.

[Christine Schieffer]

And this. Is this how we learned. Learned that nyquil needed a recall or something like.

[Em McElhinney]

No, it contained massive amounts of strychnine. As in somebody put strychnine in her medicine.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, I see. I was like. Oh, I was like, is this a big, like. Like, scandal that I didn't know about? Okay.

[Em McElhinney]

No, that's right. Yes. They knew it was intentional because there's no way this would happen by mistake. Okay. And so as. Sorry, they. They checked the NyQuil, and there was an. A massive amount of strychnine inside it. And being an O powder, it would have just mixed in, and she would never have known.

[Christine Schieffer]

And no one's ever drinking it and tasting it. You're always chasing it with some, like, taste it.

[Em McElhinney]

And. Well, it has such a strong, potent, like, syrup flavor to it that you wouldn't even realize if there's something extra bitter in there, you know?

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

But it's odorless. You wouldn't even notice, which is why it's so dangerous. And so basically the bitterness, she wouldn't have even noticed it, probably because. Because it was already bitter. Bitter medicine, you know, and so it was briefly considered maybe she had taken this, you know, for. For suicidal purposes. But she didn't leave a note. She seemed to not be sure what was happening when she called her sister Sally and Steve. And so they kind of ruled that out pretty quickly, you know, once the FBI and Vix. Nyquil and. And new enemy of M. Because of that statement earlier.

[Christine Schieffer]

She's an OP for sure. I, like, I. I've always not been a fan, but this. This is just. If I heard this horror story when I was younger, it would have really terrified me.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. So they, of course, determined very quickly there were no other consumer strict nine poisoning cases. This was not product tampering. It wasn't somebody at the store who did it.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

They believed it was someone who knew Patsy intimately. And Patsy actually often took Nyquil if she couldn't fall asleep and was something her family and friends knew about her. It wasn't necessarily like, oh, there's Nyquil in the cupboard for the next time I have a cold in six months. It was like every now and then.

[Christine Schieffer]

She would drink it had done that in the past or have done that in the past. Not just her. It's like, oh, well, it's a sleeping agent.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, I don't recommend it, but. And it's probably not safe, but I do that sometimes, so I get it. Well, now they make Zquil too, which is, like, for sleeping.

[Christine Schieffer]

Right.

[Em McElhinney]

Anyway, okay. So they believe this was a targeted attack and that somebody knew she would eventually take Nyquil pretty soon and that it would. It would kill her. Her friend Karen even told D magazine, I used to tease her about being a Nyquil head. Like, just don't drink Nyquil to go to sleep. Someone who knew Patsy, her habits and her bedtime routine must have poisoned the medicine and just waited for the next time she drank it. So whoever had done it seemed to be in no rush. Right, because it could have taken, like, a week. It could have taken, like, two weeks. Who knew, like, when she would eventually drink some Nyquil? But they knew it would happen soon. And the house alarm hadn't been set when Sally and Steve arrived. There were actually two dinner plates on a table in Patsy's bedroom when Steve and Sally arrived. And remember, she was divorced and was living alone, so they did not know who this second dinner plate was for.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah. Okay, so so far, it's looking like that guy spiked her.

[Em McElhinney]

Somebod may have been involved here. So it's possible someone Patty was close or Patsy was close to could have been there late that night. But it didn't necessarily make them the killer. It just was a curious addition to potentially what could be a motive. So, you know, inheritance and money were the big ones, the big potential motives. And when Thomas Bolton died, Sally and Patsy reportedly had to battle their stepmother in court for their dad. Dad's estate. So there was already some tension in the family about money. Patsy said she would never make her own children go through anything like that. And their inheritance was very secure, and she didn't want them to have to fight, you know, a parent for sure for access to that money. But Wayne and Leslie were extremely close with their mother, and their friends felt Patsy treated them as her own family when they came over to see Wayne and Leslie. So both were quickly ruled sold out, because at this point, they were older According to Patsy's friends, she was not fond of her brother in law, Steve, and she had signed legal agreements with Sally, her sister, dictating the inheritance of life insurance and stocks to make sure Steve would never own majority assets in the museum business.

[Christine Schieffer]

Damn Steve.

[Em McElhinney]

And he's the one who did the CPR with the green stuff coming up and all that.

[Christine Schieffer]

That's tough.

[Em McElhinney]

It's got to be really awkward. Just a high tense, high, high stakes situation here. Drama. So they, they looked at Steve and thought, well, if he knew about him being cut out of any potential business at the Muse in the museums, maybe he had something to do with it. But then we think about the cpr, the mouth to mouth. If he had put strychnine in her medicine, he probably wouldn't have put his mouth on hers. And, and yeah, great point. Then kept going when a liquid came into his mouth like that. Because at first I was watching, I was like, why are they saying that? That's so gruesome and like, you know, feels total sense. And then later I thought, wait a minute. Yeah, that makes total sense. You wouldn't do.

[Christine Schieffer]

I would agree with. He's the clearest of them all.

[Em McElhinney]

Yes. It's almost like he probably freaked out afterward, like, oh, that could have gone badly, you know. Yeah, one, one source actually says that a paramedic told the detectives that based on fluid in Sally's mouth when they began professional cpr, it actually didn't even seem like anyone had done proper CPR on her prior to their arrival. And the same source also claimed that no one else reported seeing the dinner plates set out and that Steve had actually been the one to report to dinner plates, but nobody else had noticed that. So some people say, well, he didn't really do real cpr, so he just made that up about the, about the, the liquid or whatever as like a way to say, well, I wouldn't have done that, you know, if I knew she was poisoned. Which seems like kind of a weird stretch to me. But what do I know? But the fact that he was the one who reported the two dinner plates, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if that's odd or not. That, no, that.

[Christine Schieffer]

I don't think it's odd. Not yet. Yet.

[Em McElhinney]

Not yet. So it's he said, she said, he said, they said, whatever. It's not a reliable source for murder accusation. And it's also very possible that Steve just did CPR but didn't do it properly because he didn't know how. Which I Imagine most people, even if they try, don't know how, including myself. It's something that I tried on one.

[Christine Schieffer]

Of those airport things, and I. I could not save the dummy.

[Em McElhinney]

I know. Yeah, I. It's really hard for me too. I'm not good at it, but I want to practice a little bit more.

[Christine Schieffer]

Let's practice on each other. Break each other's ribs.

[Em McElhinney]

Great. Great idea. Yes. Cpr, as SERTA notes here, is a precise skill set that people commonly misperform, which is why certifications only last usually one to three years before you are required to retrain. So, you know, if you are considering that, take this as a sign. I know I will. Steven. Sally sought out a private detective for more answers while detectives looked elsewhere. Now, Patsy had been dating a man named Leo Fikes, which I think her horse was also named Leo, as I said. So interesting.

[Christine Schieffer]

Dry Leo.

[Em McElhinney]

Dry Leo, yes, and Leo Fikes. But they had different visions of what the future looked like together. According to Leo, they were in love. But Patsy had already gotten married twice. She didn't want to get remarried, and Leo felt kind of rejected by that. So they had been estranged for months and they had gotten together a couple times. But Leo said in an interview that it was difficult being a suspect because that reject, he was already in so much pain about the breakup, and now suddenly he's like on. The spotlight's on him as a potential suspect. And so, you know, he cooperated. He did a polygraph. He seemed like an unlikely culprit and they couldn't tie it to him, so he was let go. Likewise, Patsy's first ex husband also didn't fit the bill. He had since remarried. He was reportedly on very friendly terms with Patsy. Apparently he was even listed as the executor of her will. Like that's how close they were. So it. It didn't really make sense that, you know, he would have had some vengeance against her.

[Christine Schieffer]

Sure.

[Em McElhinney]

Patsy's second ex husband, however, was a different story. Okay, this guy, his name was Bob or Robert Cox, and he actually once owned his own wax museum.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, man. Competition is. That doesn't sound good. That sounds like their arch enemies.

[Em McElhinney]

They're not because his failed miserably.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, but that also sounds like a good motive.

[Em McElhinney]

Exactly. He asked Patsy and Sally to purchase it from him, but they offered much less than he had hoped, and instead he asked Patsy out and the two ended up married.

[Christine Schieffer]

Wow.

[Em McElhinney]

But Bob was a. And he treated Patsy terribly. She financially supported him. She supported his gambling habit. They ultimately divorced on back bad terms. And she was granted a restraining order because he harassed her so constantly.

[Christine Schieffer]

Wow.

[Em McElhinney]

She also believed and had told friends and family that he was driving by her house some nights and even parking nearby to intimidate and stalk her.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, my God. Okay. Hello?

[Em McElhinney]

Hello. Ding, ding, ding. Bob, whose failing museum had mysteriously caught fire recently.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, my God. He is looking weird.

[Em McElhinney]

Worse and worse, was being tried in civil court for arson related to an insurance fraud scheme. And Patsy was on the hook to testify against him in an upcoming trial.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, we have found our slam dunk.

[Em McElhinney]

Yes, I would say so.

[Christine Schieffer]

Okay.

[Em McElhinney]

He even reportedly called her, demanding that she change her story. But Patsy told him she was going to tell the truth. And wouldn't you know it, she was killed just days before this trial.

[Christine Schieffer]

So are we thinking, like, he was being sweet on her and saying, like, oh, let me. Let me make you dinner. Let me come over and we'll talk it out?

[Em McElhinney]

I wonder. I don't know. I don't know. You're guessing mine as mine. Bob won the trial, so it couldn't be proven that he set the fire. Because no arrest was made, we have to assume that, honestly, we don't know if he did it. I'm with you that I find it to be a very compelling slam dunk dunk. But there has not been an arrest, so there must not be enough evidence to indict him with the murder. And as of right now, the case remains unsolved and open.

[Christine Schieffer]

Wow. Wild.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah. So September of 1988, 11 months after Patsy died, the Southwest Historical Wax Museum burned to the ground and everything inside it was destroyed.

[Christine Schieffer]

Christine Schieffer.

[Em McElhinney]

It took roughly 100 firefighters from multiple cities hours to control the fire.

[Christine Schieffer]

Holy shit.

[Em McElhinney]

And the El Paso Times ran the news under the headline, just a bit too warm, which I would argue too soon, but. Okay.

[Christine Schieffer]

Too soon. Yeah, Especially like a. A wax museum. You just put a wick in that, you've got a bunch of like six foot candles like that.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, yeah. It's not going to end well. Wax isn't flammable, is it? Because it's wax.

[Christine Schieffer]

Wouldn't you think wax would just become like. It would just turn into a really sloppy puddle and then you wouldn't be able to. Because I'm thinking about if I took a candle right now, tried to catch it on fire without.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, wait, you're totally right. It would keep the wick, wouldn't it? At least suspended somehow or not the wick, but like any sort of something on fire. I guess if it was in a bunch of melted wax.

[Christine Schieffer]

I guess my thought is if it. Well, maybe once the wax melts. Once the wax melted down, anything sitting in the puddle of wax became the wick.

[Em McElhinney]

It's like suspended in the puddle of liquid. Liquid wax.

[Christine Schieffer]

Now, it'd be a very interesting site regardless of the tragedy.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, it's a tragedy for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It just seems like too obvious. Right.

[Christine Schieffer]

For a. Yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

Wax museum to burn down. But that's.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, I would imagine a wax museum's biggest fear is a fire.

[Em McElhinney]

Right, Right, I guess, exactly. It's like the only. Like, what do you. Kryptonite of.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yes.

[Em McElhinney]

Fake Elvis.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

Anyway, so basically this took hours and there was that headline. The fire appeared to be electrical in nature and wasn't ruled in arson. Although it was just very weird timing and context and circumstances, especially with that other guy, her ex husband, like being on trial for arson of his own wax museum.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

And now another wax museum goes up in flames. It's just after a murder. It was just so weird. It's so weird. So again, I want to be clear. He was not arrested. I'm not saying he did it. I don't know what happened. And it's very clear. Nobody seems to have an answer. But either way, it's all very, very tragic. A new wax museum was rebuilt on the same site in Grand Prairie, Texas, along with a Ripley's Believe it or not inside. And so in an interview, Patsy's daughter Leslie said it was difficult to know. She probably, probably is close with whoever did this to her mother or knows them. You know, it must just be like such a upsetting feeling. She and her brother Wayne were saying, like, you know, we know everyone she knew. We were all very tight knit. And it's like, who would have done this? You know, I mean, it's.

[Christine Schieffer]

It's also the. Without. It's like a monster among us. It's like, who am I? Who am I keeping in touch with? It makes you want to keep in touch with fucking nobody.

[Em McElhinney]

It's almost scary. Yeah, it's. It's like, how do you keep yourself safe and who can you trust? And how can you trust yourself if you don't even know who it is? You know? That's also scary.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah.

[Em McElhinney]

Anyway, so someone might one day come forward, hopefully with a piece of knowledge that'll, you know, finally crack the case. But for now, those who knew Patsy remember her online and memorial pages, forums, that kind of thing. People still share anecdotes about her online and talk about what a loving, generous, adventurous person she Was. Was. And seeing her kids being interviewed, they seem like really awesome people too. So, you know, I don't know what anyone's up to nowadays, but it's just a. It's a pretty dark, dark tale.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, that's the story. Wow. I. The end I had. You know, you've covered a lot in your stories. I think Wax Museum. That was the first for you.

[Em McElhinney]

I think you're right. Have you done a haunted one? Wax Museum?

[Christine Schieffer]

No. Which is interesting because I personally believe every wax museum is haunted.

[Em McElhinney]

I mean, I think everyone. I think despite whether we believe in ghosts or not, everyone knows a wax museum is haunted.

[Christine Schieffer]

It's the uncanny valley. It's just.

[Em McElhinney]

Whether you believe in ghosts or not, we all know. We all know there's something not right.

[Christine Schieffer]

In West Museum in Hot Springs, Arkansas. I went with my mom one time.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, yes.

[Christine Schieffer]

And I. I've definitely told you this story before, but we ended up at the world's creepiest wax museum. And wax museums are inherently creepy. This one took the cake.

[Em McElhinney]

That's.

[Christine Schieffer]

So if you happen to be from Hot Springs, can you please tell me what the hell the name of that place was?

[Em McElhinney]

Because can you tell me what the hell is going on? Well, when you said it, it sounded like that was the name of it. The world's creepiest wax museum. Like, it sounded like I went to the world's creepiest wax museum.

[Christine Schieffer]

That makes sense. No, it just felt the creepiest. And also, my mom and I, like, it felt like it was out of a Goosebumps movie because we opened the door, all the lights were off. I honestly think it was closed. And someone forgot to lock the front door because we walked in, didn't see a goddamn person, never paid a ticket.

[Em McElhinney]

Josephine Tusso, West Museum.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yes. It was like a knockoff Madame Tussauds. And we thought it was. I think it's Madame Tussauds, like sister or something.

[Em McElhinney]

I think it's a family member because it's the same last name.

[Christine Schieffer]

But we wouldn't. I. I am 90, sure that it was actually closed and someone forgot to close the door. And we just waltzed in because the lights were completely off, which is so scary.

[Em McElhinney]

Dude.

[Christine Schieffer]

Never met a person, never bought a ticket. We just kept wandering, wondering, waiting to find someone. And eventually.

[Em McElhinney]

What year was that?

[Christine Schieffer]

2015.

[Em McElhinney]

2015. Yeah.

[Christine Schieffer]

It was the road trip on the way to la.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah. If people out there know about this place, and if that's something that would happen, let us know.

[Christine Schieffer]

Like, if it's the pictures we took, and I mean, I mean, another reason why it was so creepy is because, like, if it. If the building was closed and we didn't waltzed in, there was no music, There was no ambiance. It was just walking amongst the scariest wax figures you've ever seen. And there was, like, several religious sets because it was Arkansas. I was just like, where the hell are we? And there was like. There was, like, kind of like a fairy tale space, but everything looked knockoff.

[Em McElhinney]

I don't know. It looks kind of like. Oh, well, no, there is paid. Paid admission, but it says the museum is open daily year round, so maybe they just let people wander in. I don't know.

[Christine Schieffer]

Is it just a free thing? I don't know what it was.

[Em McElhinney]

No, it was like, 50 bucks.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, we did not pay.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, well, obviously there's nobody there to take your payment anyway.

[Christine Schieffer]

If you ever get a chance to go to that museum, imagine all the lights off with no music, and you're alone in there with your mom. It's really creepy.

[Em McElhinney]

I love that, like, you're alone there with your mom. Your mom has to be a part of it if you're imagining this.

[Christine Schieffer]

And halfway through, we were like, I think it's closed.

[Em McElhinney]

And they now do 4D virtual reality.

[Christine Schieffer]

Shut up.

[Em McElhinney]

And they just said, I don't know if they had this back then. Their website says the gambling museum is our newest addition edition.

[Christine Schieffer]

Oh, God.

[Em McElhinney]

Gambling museum.

[Christine Schieffer]

By the way, the. I kind of feel like there was a gambling situ. I don't really remember. Maybe I'm forcing a memory, but nothing creepier than a wax museum doing a 4D exhibit. Does that mean the wax people now, like, talk to you?

[Em McElhinney]

Move and breathe. Oh, God. This is my night. This is a horror movie. Wait m. This is so cool. At the end of the tour, do you remember anything about the end? Well, you didn't A tour. But do you remember anything about the end of the tour?

[Christine Schieffer]

No. It was literally 10 years ago. I don't remember anything now.

[Em McElhinney]

At the end of the tour, you were able to check out the escape tunnel the gangsters used to get away when the police raided the casino. You can literally fall in Al Capone's footsteps. So they basically take you to a tunnel that Al Capone ran through.

[Christine Schieffer]

Don't remember that at all. Nope.

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, this would be the scariest place to be when it's closed.

[Christine Schieffer]

How do I. I. I think I sent you the picture I have of my mom.

[Em McElhinney]

Oh, yes. Oh, my God, you did.

[Christine Schieffer]

We should post that because the most embarrassing picture of my mother Good. Because.

[Em McElhinney]

So good.

[Christine Schieffer]

At some point I. It was. I don't know how to explain it, except that she was just trying to pose by this really creepy wax figure and it. It accidentally turned out with the positioning of the camera, it looks like a sexual act is being made.

[Em McElhinney]

And I was so much better because it was accidental, right? Like it wasn.

[Christine Schieffer]

I'm sending it to you right now.

[Em McElhinney]

You already have it. Oh my God.

[Christine Schieffer]

And yeah, that was. It's actually on my Instagram all the way down in 2017.

[Em McElhinney]

We have to add this to the group.

[Christine Schieffer]

My. The caption for it was missing. My mom, whose greatest talent is posing for pictures at the worst angle. And my mother liked it. So yeah, I think she'd be fine if we posted it again.

[Em McElhinney]

That's a horrible pic. That's from the. That place.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, that's. And can you confirm? It's fucking dark in there. Like scary.

[Em McElhinney]

And also that thing looks like it's gonna attack you any moment. Look at it.

[Christine Schieffer]

Looks like a mid attack. I mean.

[Em McElhinney]

And also, like the bat, your battery is like really threatening to me. Also up here, it's like it's at like 1%. This is all really, really toxic.

[Christine Schieffer]

Well, anyway, with that, if you'd like to go see a picture of my mom that's a little X rated with a dark wax museum figure, I would.

[Em McElhinney]

Say it's a little R rated. I. I wouldn't say it's X rated.

[Christine Schieffer]

I think it's certainly.

[Em McElhinney]

But it's definitely.

[Christine Schieffer]

She wouldn't post it on her LinkedIn. You know what I'm saying?

[Em McElhinney]

Yeah, I would say maybe not. I wouldn't recommend she do that either.

[Christine Schieffer]

Yeah, she looks so happy. She's fine.

[Em McElhinney]

She's having a great time.

[Christine Schieffer]

Anyway, if you live in Hot Springs, Arkansas, please let them know they should lock their doors when they close. And that's it. And that's why we drink.