E426 A Big Bi Cup and Christine’s Box of Doom

Summary

Podcast Summary: "E426 A Big Bi Cup and Christine’s Box of Doom"

And That's Why We Drink Episode E426, titled "A Big Bi Cup and Christine’s Box of Doom," delves deep into the chilling history of the Burlington County Prison in Mount Holly, New Jersey. Hosted by Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz, this episode masterfully intertwines true crime and paranormal tales, offering listeners a captivating exploration of one of the most haunted prisons in the United States.

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1. Introduction

Christine and Em kick off the episode with light-hearted banter about their foster dog, Hank, setting a relatable and engaging tone for the listeners. They briefly touch upon various advertisements but swiftly transition to the main content, signaling the profound shift from everyday conversations to the dark corridors of Burlington County Prison.

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2. The Burlington County Prison: A Modern Marvel of the Early 1800s

Historical Foundation: Built in 1811 by renowned architect Robert Mills, the Burlington County Prison was one of Mills' first significant designs before he went on to craft iconic structures like the U.S. Treasury Building and the U.S. Patent Office.

Christine (00:00-00:25): "So have you ever been speed dating? Have you? I haven't. ... and broke it down."

Innovative Design Features: At its inception, the prison was lauded as the first modern facility in the country, introducing several progressive features for its time:

• Fireproof Construction: Designed to prevent catastrophic fires, a rarity in prison architecture during that era.
• Cell Blocks Based on Crimes: Unlike previous prisons where all inmates were housed together irrespective of their offenses, Burlington County Prison separated inmates based on the nature of their crimes. This segregation aimed at reducing violence and improving management.
• Rehabilitation Focus: The prison incorporated workshops where inmates could develop skills like broom and basket making, emphasizing rehabilitation over mere punishment.

Em (26:43-26:51): "He also built the national monument, and he built the wings of Independence Hall."

Living Conditions: The facility boasted heated cells, a departure from the often cold and harsh conditions of other prisons. Additionally, it was among the first to separate women and children from male inmates, ensuring a safer environment for vulnerable populations.

Em (30:35-30:47): "It was also the first prison to put inmates into cell blocks based on their crimes ... putting them in one big ass room."

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3. Dark Tales from Within: Executions and Escape Attempts

Executions: Burlington County Prison was the site of at least seven public executions between its establishment and 1906, making it a focal point of fear and folklore in the region. Notably, double executions occurred in 1906, where two accomplices were hanged simultaneously for the same crime.

Em (48:52-49:12): "Seven were hanged on the grounds... two more people who stayed at this prison."

Violent Escapes: The prison witnessed numerous escape attempts, totaling over 70 documented cases. These attempts were often marked by extreme violence, including the repeated murders of guards using metal bars—a grim pattern that unnerved both inmates and staff.

Christine (52:39-52:43): "Is that like the one in the top. The penthouse suite? Like, were they up there standing on the ring or something?"

Notable Incidents: One particularly eerie pattern involved inmates using metal bars to kill guards during escape attempts, with a recurrence of the same method years apart, underscoring the malevolent history embedded within the prison walls.

Em (51:06-51:20): "During an escape attempt, an inmate beat a guard to death with a metal bar. Then on his way out, he had to pass the kitchen, and another guard was there and saw him escaping. So he beat that guard to death with the same metal bar."

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4. Transformation into a Haunted Museum

As the years progressed, the prison transitioned from a state facility to a museum, preserving its rich and dark history. Today, it offers various tours—self-guided, audio, and personal—allowing visitors to immerse themselves in its storied past.

Exhibits:

• Artifacts: Items like ropes from executions and a replica of the SS St. Paul boat, crafted by an inmate using spare parts, adorn the museum displays.
• Interactive Experiences: Emphasizing its haunted reputation, the museum features an escape room inspired by historical escape attempts, providing an interactive journey through its ominous legacy.
• Haunted Wedding Venue: Unique to this museum, it also serves as a spooky wedding venue, attracting thrill-seekers and paranormal enthusiasts alike.

Em (62:48-63:35): "They also have an escape room based on Eddie's escape from the prison... it is on the National Register of Historic Places and runs as a museum."

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5. Haunting Phenomena: Ghosts of Burlington County Prison

Burlington County Prison's reputation as a haunted site stems from numerous reported paranormal activities:

• Apparitions: Spectral figures, especially a man in a prison uniform, roaming the basement and moving through empty cells.
• Auditory Hauntings: Unexplained voices, moaning, and the rattling of chains echo through the facility, particularly near the tree where an executed inmate, Joel, is buried.
• Physical Movements: Objects levitate or move autonomously, and a stretcher has been observed rolling across floors without any physical intervention.
• Environmental Anomalies: Hair being pulled unexpectedly and orbs appearing alongside motion sensor activations add to the eerie ambiance.

Em (58:51-59:48): "They also see apparitions on the stairs; they've seen items in the dungeon levitating... People have gotten pictures of humanoid figures and moving shadows."

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6. Case Study: Hannah Anderson and Jim DiMaggio

The episode takes a poignant turn as Christine narrates the harrowing true story of Hannah Anderson, a 16-year-old girl abducted in 2013 by her family's close friend, Jim DiMaggio.

Background: Hannah, involved in her high school's summer cheer camp, shared a close bond with Jim, who was more of a stepfather figure following her parents' separation. Their relationship, seen as purely platonic, took a dark turn leading to Hannah's abduction.

The Abduction: On August 3rd, 2013, after finishing cheer camp, Hannah was picked up by Jim for one last weekend at his cabin due to his impending relocation caused by foreclosure. Shortly after arriving, a raging fire consumed the cabin, resulting in the death of Hannah's mother, Tina, and her brother, Ethan, who succumbed to the flames. Hannah was missing, sparking a national manhunt aided by California's first Amber Alert issued via cell phone networks.

Christine (70:51-75:11): "In 2013, specifically Saturday, August 3rd... the remains were too badly burned to be identified at first, but DNA confirmation allowed them to determine that, yes, it was Ethan."

The Rescue: After intense searches, including aerial reconnaissance and ground teams traversing treacherous wilderness areas, Hannah was found near Morehead Lake, alive but traumatized. Jim DiMaggio was apprehended during a rescue operation after he attempted to fire at the rescue team, leading to his immediate death.

Christine (106:37-107:21): "So they finally were able to swoop in. And when the team did swoop in... he was shot multiple times, was immediately killed. Hannah and Oliver both survived."

Aftermath: Hannah, traumatized yet resilient, became an advocate for the Amber Alert system, crediting it for her survival. Despite public scrutiny and unfounded rumors suggesting her complicity, evidence confirmed her victimhood. A wrongful death lawsuit filed by Jim's family was dismissed, reflecting the complexity and emotional turmoil surrounding the case.

Em (119:12-119:18): "So at some point, you just gotta... shrug it off and be able... that work has no legs, certainly, in my opinion, in my humble Opinion, anyway, so this lawsuit was dismissed."

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7. Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Christine and Em conclude the episode by emphasizing the importance of vigilance and the "see something, say something" mantra, underscoring how seemingly benign behaviors can mask sinister intentions. They poignantly reflect on Hannah's recovery and the enduring scars left by such traumatic events.

Christine (86:35-87:34): "Hannah's friends knew something that the adults did... like, it's so insidious. And, like, talk about grooming."

The episode serves as a sobering reminder of the thin line between trust and danger, especially within familial and close-knit relationships. Through meticulous storytelling, And That's Why We Drink not only recounts historical and paranormal tales but also underscores the real-life implications of unrecognized red flags and the resilience of survivors.

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Notable Quotes:

• Christine (58:52): "Don't like that. People with hearing problems just blame Geo if that's the case, you know."

• Em (30:35): "It was designed with rehabilitation in mind, unlike maybe today's system."

• Em (51:06): "During an escape attempt, an inmate beat a guard to death with a metal bar."

• Christine (86:35): "Hannah's friends knew something that the adults did... like, it's so insidious. And, like, talk about grooming."

• Em (74:22): "Hannah and Ethan did not appear to be on the property."

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Conclusion

Episode E426 of And That's Why We Drink masterfully blends historical intrigue with gripping true crime narratives, all while infusing touches of the paranormal. Christine and Em's detailed exploration of the Burlington County Prison and the tragic tale of Hannah Anderson serves as a testament to their storytelling prowess, leaving listeners both informed and enthralled.

For more captivating stories and chilling tales, tune in every Sunday with And That's Why We Drink.

Transcript

[Christine]

So have you ever been speed dating? Have you? I haven't. That's cool. Well, apparently if you're the owner of a growing business, imagine that there's speed dating, but for hiring people. That's kind of what we did when we went through people who applied to be Eva. And all of a sudden it was like, here's Eva in the middle of this beautiful pile of. Of. And we did the speed dating and. And she sat down and we said, ding, ding, ding.

[Em]

If you were hoping for some sort of speed dating for you when it comes to a job search or an employee search, well, good news there is. It's zip intro from ZipRecruiter. And you can post your job today and start talking to qualified candidates tomorrow. And right now you can try Zip Intro for free at ziprecruiter.com Drink Zip.

[Christine]

Intro gives you the power to quickly assess excellent candidates for your job via back to back video calls. Oh, so it's like really is like speed dating. You simply pick a time and Zip Intro does all the work of finding and scheduling qualified candidates for you. Like they schedule. Then you sit down, you choose who you want to talk to and it's like bing bang boom.

[Em]

Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with new Zip Intro only from ZipRecruiter. Rated number one hiring site based on G2. Try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com.

[Christine]

Drink again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink Zip Intro. Post jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow.

[Em]

Location the lab. Quinton only has 24 hours to sell his car. Is that even possible? He goes to Carvana.com.

[Christine]

What is this, a movie trailer?

[Em]

He ignores the doubters, enters his license plate. Wow, that's a great offer. The car is sold. But will Carvana pick it up in time for.

[Christine]

They'll literally pick it up tomorrow morning. Done with the dramatics.

[Em]

Car selling in record time.

[Christine]

Save your time. Go to Carvana.com and sell your car today. Pick up these may apply. Well, we're back.

[Em]

We're back again. You thought you could get rid of US 425 times in a row and we said no. So we're back again.

[Christine]

This time I thought you might finally win. Everybody. Oh, there's that dog again. Guess who's still here?

[Em]

My sanity.

[Christine]

Wait, no. That was a listener episode. Oh, wait.

[Em]

Oh, it doesn't come out yet.

[Christine]

It'll have come out by the time this comes out. So. So if you listen to Listener episode. If you don't listen to listener episodes, now you, now you've missed out on the big update.

[Em]

You sure have.

[Christine]

That's your punishment.

[Em]

I know. If you keep hearing clattering today, folks, it is my foster dog has. I, I got him like a, a tray that, like, you fill it with ice and you put food in it. So it's supposed to be like a frozen lick pad and takes forever in theory for them to eat it, but this dog is like, way too smart for that theory.

[Christine]

Keyword. In theory. Yeah.

[Em]

He realized he can just pick the whole plate up in his mouth and then get on the couch and then slam it onto the ground and it just shatters the ice everywhere.

[Christine]

I think we all understand that I'm in love with Hank and I think he's like the funniest and best dog ever. And I think he's the game changer for this podcast. I think, like, things will never be the same going forward. I think I will feel so much less guilty every time my dog barks. And so it's really, like, evened the scores for me. A bit earlier. M said like, I'm so sorry. I might have to get up and like, help him if his, like, snout gets stuck. And I was like, leona, like, waltz is in here. And like, like, like pulls the camera down. Like, I don't know. I feel like, I feel finally like I have. I'm less of the bad guy.

[Em]

I'm owed eight years of. I think. No, I, I, I've never cared before, but now all of a sudden I'm paranoid about everyone caring about, about him. Anyway, he's. Should I, should we do a psa? If anyone wants a smart dog. Hankies.

[Christine]

Yes. Come here. So he's up for adoption. His name is Hank. He is a 10 month old puppy and that is why he is causing so much chaos.

[Em]

Don't eat that. Okay?

[Christine]

He is literally, look at him. He's perfect and sweet and I love him more than anything in the world besides Geo. That and he has these like, chihuahua ears, which I did say yesterday, and he seemed pretty upset about that. But he got a wiggly waggly tail. He does not have a butt curtain, but he does have Gio's kind of coloring. Plus some, some. What do you call that? Cattle. Cattle.

[Em]

Cattle dog.

[Christine]

Cattle dog. Spots. So. And he is seriously so effing cute. I can't come here. Deal. He looks like he might have some, like, rottweiler maybe instead of the German shepherd, I can't tell. But he's a cutie pie and he is a lot of Energy and m. Solo parenting right now.

[Em]

And for weeks.

[Christine]

For weeks. And is struggling with it. So if. And doesn't have a. Like, a big yard or anything for the dog, so, like, has to go on all these walks, and you know how much m. Loves to go on.

[Em]

To go outside. Yesterday I did three walks with him and two hours at the dog park.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Em]

And it's like, just because. It's just because we don't have a yard for him. So that's the only reason that we're not taking him. Because otherwise he's.

[Christine]

Otherwise he's perfect. Is that what you're gonna say? Otherwise, he's.

[Em]

Hankies. Come here.

[Christine]

I mean, Hanky. Like, he's so cute.

[Em]

I need a little hanky panky.

[Christine]

Wow. Okay, so if you're in the. If you're in need of some hanky panky, please, please check out our show notes, because we're gonna somehow. Is there a. Is there a link or something?

[Em]

We. There's a. There's a rescue that we are working with called barking.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. He should have led with that. Yeah.

[Em]

And so that's where we got Hank. He is our, like, third or fourth foster now, but every one of them, we've never, like, thought, like, oh, this is going to be, like, a permanent dog. He's probably the closest we've gotten to him maybe being a permanent dog. But he has so much energy.

[Christine]

Until Allison tested it by. By leaving, she really ruined it there.

[Em]

Well, like, the only reason he's, like, this mouthy and everything and, like, constantly needs stuff is because we don't have a yard for him to, like, get it all out. So if someone has a yard, it all goes away. And he's just a cuddly, smart dog.

[Christine]

Yeah. He is a puppy smart and a puppy. And that. Those don't combine well. I know.

[Em]

No, he's. He's stupid smart. And I gotta give Allison all the credit for the training. She taught him, like, 30 commands. Yeah. And he's really good on a leash and everything. And at the dog park, he goes to the timid dog park because he's scared of everyone. Hankies. Come here. One more. Come here. I have a toy you want. I'm trying to get him, like, one more. One more shot. Whatever. I'll show it at you, idiot. Okay. The way that he has been such a good boy until he wants attention because. And I'm not getting it to him.

[Christine]

You're describing every mammal. You're describing every human, every pet.

[Em]

He's so cute, though.

[Christine]

They're great until they want attention. Yeah.

[Em]

He just. All of a sudden, I think that's my frustration is I know how smart he is when he acts like a dummy. I'm like, what is going on here? I know what you're capable of.

[Christine]

Yeah, I know. Welcome.

[Em]

I'm new to all this. I'm new to all this.

[Christine]

Anyway, I know it is fun to watch. I'll be honest with you.

[Em]

We had a big snuggle fest this morning.

[Christine]

That's the thing. Gio's not a snuggler. And I. That's. I wish for that. That. That's really sweet.

[Em]

Hank is a big snuggler when he's. When he's not rowdy, all he wants to do is, like, be in your lap or, like, have a tummy rub or he'll show his tummy to anyone. He's just desperate to be pet and loved on. And he's got very soft ears. He's a good boy.

[Christine]

In love with him. The only thing that I'm mad about is that. Yeah. Yes and no. That I'm not there to at least, like, give him one little squeeze. Because if you did have a yard, then I could squeeze them all the time. But I think if whoever wants to adopt Hank gets in touch with me for, like, potential visitation rights, that would be great. As his aunt. As his biological aunt.

[Em]

I did birth him myself.

[Christine]

Yes, you did. And I think that I should get some special rights also.

[Em]

No, he's very good. He's just. He just needs.

[Christine]

He's a sweetie. I know.

[Em]

He needs a lot. And I'm not. I just am not. I don't know if I can't offer.

[Christine]

Listen, you got those hardwood floors. He's just slamming that ice around. And by the way, m was like, oh, my God, it's gonna melt into a wet fruit salad on the floor because there's, like, berries and stuff in it. And I tried so hard. Just so rough, man.

[Em]

And. Well, also, it's so. Yeah, I. And it's, like, full, like, blueberries and stuff. And not only does it. Does he flip it upside down on the couch so all the ice melts into the couch, but then he, like, jumps on it. So he smear. Here's the berries into the couch.

[Christine]

I feel like this is the thing that you learn when you get a puppy and then you put peanut butter, and then all of a sudden, there's peanut butter. Everyone. You go, yes. Oh, that's why people freeze it. Or, like, oh, you learn all these things where you're like, oh. Or that's why, like, I've.

[Em]

I've learned all of those things this week alone.

[Christine]

I know you can't learn it until you do it and then you go, oh. But some of those things never go away. I truly couch certainly has never gone away from my house because of the dog.

[Em]

Like, I've never felt more like. Like a truly. Like the beginnings of a parent where I'm just. Even though I know, obviously before people come at me. I know babies and dogs are different, but this is my first time having to take care of another thing and learning all the insider tips because I've just never had to know them. And the peanut butter thing is very real.

[Christine]

Every dog's different. Like, some might be like, I mean, you know, Gia wants to be cuddly. But then I realized it's only when he wants something. And then I'm like, oh, well, that's annoying. I want to sleep. And he's like, nope.

[Em]

And I'll. My favorite thing about Hank, besides, I mean, he's very cute and it's very easy. He's got very kissable cheekies. But he loves sleeping long term. And he'll sleep all night and then have a three hour nap with you. And I'm like, that's my man. But all the times he's awake.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Gremlin. Full blow. Gremlin.

[Christine]

Here's what I'll also say. What if the. The listener episode comes out on the first and then this comes out, like, two weeks later, and he's already adopted, and the person who adopted him is like, stop talking about my dog.

[Em]

Like.

[Christine]

Like someone else is gonna take him. Maybe he's already been adopted by then.

[Em]

I. I hope so. I hope someone loves him the right way. I wish I could love him the right way. I just don't. I. All I need is a little extra grass. I mean, he. But right now he just needs to keep going places to walk him. And it's just very. It's a lot of time. Yeah.

[Christine]

I mean, I imagine that. That you drink for that reason. Is that right?

[Em]

That's exactly why.

[Christine]

That's right. What are you drinking? Look, we're wearing the same shirt. Oh, well, almost.

[Em]

We're both wearing our own brand. Yes.

[Christine]

That's what we do. Yeah. We're cool like that.

[Em]

I'm drinking water, and I drink it very quietly because he is obsessed with ripping water bottles up. So I have to make noise.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

I have to be very careful. Yeah. He's got a crinkle stick. That's full of water bottles in it, but.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, yeah, they love those things.

[Em]

Anyway, I drink water, and that's about it. What do you. What do you drink?

[Christine]

I'm drinking out of my. My bisexual tumbler.

[Em]

You big buy cup.

[Christine]

My big bi cup. It's purple to pink. And I'm drinking my cold brew iced coffee from the fridge with a dash of whole milk, lightly sweetened. Oh, it hits the spot, you know, But I drink because. Well, I had a really good reason. Oh, I. Look what I got out yesterday, and I finally charged it. I bought this for Blaze for his birthday four years ago, I think, and we've never used it.

[Em]

That's wild, because I've literally shown you what it can do. And also.

[Christine]

I know. And I. I don't know what happened. I think I got overwhelmed and was like, I'm just over. And since I gave it to Blaze, like, he. He. Excuse me.

[Em]

Oh, my God. And just like that, she smoked 100 cigarettes.

[Christine]

Please, Jack, you can keep the jokes. And do not keep that phlegm noise. And it was so nasty. I can't go the rest of my life knowing anybody else right now besides you, too. So I have. Yeah. So I got out my. By the way, folks, if you're like, what are you talking about? This is one of the Oculus things, right? The Ocul VR. I'm, like, so out of the loop. Em showed me how cool it was one time years ago, years ago. And right at when was that? Because it was that I literally used.

[Em]

To pack it to play with it in hotel rooms on the road. So I brought it to, like, a Canada show, I think.

[Christine]

Yeah. So it was right after that, for Blaze's birthday, Christmas, something, I bought him one. And I was like, oh, this will be, like, our big purchase. And, like, we'll share it. And then he used it, like, once or twice for a Star wars game. And I guess, like, maybe I got pregnant. I don't know. Just stuff happened, and I was like, that thing is in the closet somewhere. So I finally got it out and was like, does it still work? I turned it on and it looked like Windows 98.

[Em]

Like, oh, really?

[Christine]

And I was like, oh, my God. So I had to go to, like, do a software update. And then I did the software update, went, oh, good, we've entered the year 2025. But, like, the difference between when I bought it in, like, it's crazy. It's like four years or something. I was shocked. And so last night, I was like, oh, my God. Some place, went to bed, and I laid here and watched Netflix on the ceiling.

[Em]

I also watch Netflix with the helmet on. Yeah, because. Because you're in a literal movie theater.

[Christine]

It's a movie theater.

[Em]

Or like a. There's like, last time I did it, it was movie theater. And I think there was also, like, at one point, like, it looked like you were in your own home entertainment theater. Like a. Like a lounge.

[Christine]

What? And then Juniper came and, like, snuggled with me, and I was just like, I'm watching a fucking movie in my bed on the ceiling, and I'm on the beach also. I think, have you. This is the coolest thing that's ever happened to me.

[Em]

There was one called. I forget what it was. It was beta, I think, because it was in beta. It was beta like cinemas or beta movies or something. And it was literally going into a movie theater, and you can go into different theaters and there's other people who. Anyone who's in that app, you can, like, see them sitting in the seats too, with you. And you can, like, throw tomatoes at the screen and, like, shut the F up.

[Christine]

That's amazing.

[Em]

Yeah, that was really fun for. That was one of my Covid things, as I would just go into, like. I'd go into, like, beta cinemas and be like. And I. I guess I don't know how they pick. I don't know what the. The back end of that is, because sometimes it was a movie playing, sometimes it was like, Cutthroat Kitchen. And like, oh, that's funny. There's always, like, a few options. And I remember being like, I guess I'm gonna go watch Chopped with a bunch of strangers now because I'm that fuck. The pandemic was a weird time. I'm so happy you're using it.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm really excited. And I was like, I made an Avatar. And I was like, do I. Can I add you as a friend? I didn't want to be weird. I was like, I don't know what the.

[Em]

You can add me. I don't. I don't think we'll ever play a single similar game. Unless you're why I like.

[Christine]

I like bars. I could go to the bar and get a drink from you.

[Em]

That would be hysterical, though. If it was how it worked, I would absolutely say, come on.

[Christine]

That. Who never tipped you? That'll be me.

[Em]

Oh, what was her name?

[Christine]

I called her, like, Glargon or something, but I can't remember. Every time I say it was something like that.

[Em]

I think. I think it's Like a breed of aliens that's, like, the rude ones.

[Christine]

I called her, like, Karen Blargon or something because she was such a little. But anyway, I finally got my VR mask. I entered the 21st century, and it is blazes. But I was like, I'm gonna use it. And he's like, okay, good night. And I was like, I mean, I guess. So I reset the whole thing because it was, like, not connected to anything.

[Em]

We could probably do. I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of games we.

[Christine]

Could do together, like ping Pong or 10.

[Em]

Is there anything we could do, like, beat Saber? It's like Guitar Hero, essentially, but it's.

[Christine]

Like, on yours to panic at the disco. I'll never forget that moment. It was.

[Em]

You can, like, battle each other. Like, who does the song better?

[Christine]

Oh, well, yeah, sure. I mean, I will. We know the answer. But, yeah, I would love to do that with you.

[Em]

I'm trying to think of, like. Because I don't play a lot of games where, like, you connect and then, like, other people play with you.

[Christine]

Yeah. I don't know anything about it. I've literally watched one YouTube video on it or one Netflix show on it and then was like, this is a game changer. So I haven't even understood what its actual capabilities are. I just watch TV in my goggles. But that was really cool. So I'm really excited. And of course, now I have it in my trash pile next to the bed. Actually, it's no longer. It's not a trash pile right now. It's just kind of like a big shelf.

[Em]

That's a. That's a doom box.

[Christine]

It's a doom box. Thank you. Instead of on the floor for once. So I'll. I'll hit you up on my little. I made a little avatar, and I. I have no clue. If it looks like me, you'll have.

[Em]

I don't think mine looks like me. I. I think I gave up when I realized there wasn't. None of them really looked like me.

[Christine]

Yeah, I guess it's hard to make a little virtual avatar actually look like a person, but. Yeah, so that's my fun fact of the day. I'm excited to. I wanted to text you, but it was also 2am and I was like, I so need to go to bed. If I start talking about this, like, I need to sleep. But it was kind of nice because I had all the lights off, and I was just watching it on my goggles, and then I just took the goggles off and rolled over. Went to sleep, and I was like, it's lovely. Oh, you don't have to turn the TV off and turn the lights off. And like, oh, it was so nice.

[Em]

Trust me, there's. You're talking to someone who has been a big fan of virtual reality since COVID Leave.

[Christine]

It took me so long, but I think this sometimes happens. It just takes me a while to absorb it, and then I'm like, let's.

[Em]

It took me. It took me a year to even do my VR because my mom gave it to me in, like, 2019 or something.

[Christine]

Something weird where it's like. It's like a feeling, like a big block or like a. I think I.

[Em]

Was overwhelmed with the idea because it was also around. It was around that time when all of my, like, nerdy friends were like, I'm gonna build a computer. And it had that same kind of, like, intimidation to it.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

For some reason when it was just like, put it on your fucking head and play.

[Christine]

I know, but I think that's what it was for me too. I was like, that seems like a project. Like, I don't have time for that, you know? And then I. It was sort of a project because I had let it sit there for four years, and it was like, the year is 1998. And I was like, oh, yeah, better fix you. But other than that, it was pretty damn easy.

[Em]

I only. I only started playing it because of COVID and I was like, well, I got nothing to do. And it actually, I think, saved my mental health because a lot of people dealt with, like, depression. I never had a single mental health problem during the pandemic because I was just, like, talking to people all the time. It was really, really lovely.

[Christine]

Yeah. I love that you had no mental health problems at all during COVID That's the coolest thing ever.

[Em]

As I said it, I went, oh, I have for sure.

[Christine]

I can't wait for that to be a quote someday on Reddit. Like, remember that time M said they had not a single mental health problem?

[Em]

As I said it, I went, I need to go to the.

[Christine]

Of COVID Everyone already has the facts, okay? It's too late to change the narrative. They know how fucking crazed we were during that whole time. Because everyone was.

[Em]

Everyone was much more hopeful than I just made it sound. But I do remember someone said something that dark when I asked the question. And I. I like, you can cancel people. Like, block them so you can't talk to them again. And I went, that was intense. And I just. I. I tried to. I was like, this is my escape.

[Christine]

And the fact that threw a tomato at them. You were like, bye.

[Em]

I just said, I have to go now, and I think it looks like you logged off, but it's just like.

[Christine]

That's hilarious.

[Em]

Yeah. You can mute people and then they.

[Christine]

Just see you disappear. Oh, see, I love this. I was worried I'd get trapped into some conversation I didn't want to get trapped into or something.

[Em]

No, you can. You could literally fly away. Literally fly.

[Christine]

Oh, it's so. It's like lucid dreaming. Like, I can just say what I want. Well, maybe not quite as quite as. But yeah, okay.

[Em]

See, but as I said, that whole thing, I definitely had a mental thing. If the second reality hit me in my escape game, I went, okay, I have to leave. You have to go away. I'm going to block you.

[Christine]

Fly away.

[Em]

Actually, I take it all back, everyone.

[Christine]

No, we know. We know that you didn't really it, but it just felt kind of funny.

[Em]

How it felt too real.

[Christine]

Said so casually. And I was like, we're just gonna breeze on past, huh? And say. Because I think for the three years that we recorded, the amount of, like, lunacy we probably exuded on all those episodes would beg to differ. But I like your hopeful, like, you know, rosy look on the past. I, I, It's. Listen, I'm joining you now.

[Em]

Thank you.

[Christine]

Go and watch Chopped with a bunch of strangers and see what happens.

[Em]

I could find you at Beta Cinemas and go watch Chopped with you. That sounds.

[Christine]

Hey, I would love that. Let's do it.

[Em]

I am going to kick this toy away because Hank thinks it's really nice to only chew it right next to the microphone. Oh, can I have this, please?

[Christine]

Puppy? Asmr.

[Em]

And now we're growling. Great. He thinks we're playing. Okay, can you bring that somewhere else, please? Thank you. Okay, we're good now.

[Christine]

Wow. I love it. I love to see it.

[Em]

I. As soon as I touched it, he was like, tug of war. And I went, oh, no. Okay.

[Christine]

He was like, we play time. Yep.

[Em]

Guess how much money I've saved this month.

[Christine]

$5.

[Em]

I'll. I'll say more than $5. How?

[Christine]

Tell me your ways.

[Em]

I have Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. I needed help with all three, and Rocket Money has done the job and has proven it.

[Christine]

The reason I originally signed up was that you can see all of your subscriptions in one place and you can know exactly where your money is going and for once, you don't want anymore. Get this. Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Like you just say, I would like to cancel this. And they're like, we'll be right back.

[Em]

And you can get alerts if bills increase in price. There's, if there's unusual spending activity or if you're close to getting over your budget, which. Hello, that's me. So thankfully, Rocket Money is. It's like, it's like having my mom here going, what are you doing with all your money? And I'm like, I don't know.

[Christine]

They're just like, hey, what's this? And you're like, okay, fine, I get it. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year. When using all of the apps premium features.

[Em]

Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Drink today. That's RocketMoney.com Drink Christine. I'm over being a single parent with this dog. I am losing a lot of sleep, but the sleep I am getting is wonderful. And you want to know why?

[Christine]

I thought we were talking. But you know what? It's great because Blissey does really help your hair. It has anti aging properties. It reduces fine lines and wrinkles over time. I mean, think about it. You're spending all night sleeping on this thing. Of course you want it to be doing something good for your hair and your skin.

[Em]

I already have perfect hair, so I wasn't as concerned about that. My thing that has, I mean, it really has been keeping me like feeling somewhat soothed at night because I really, this dog has me all over the place. But Blissy also promotes better sleep. So if you're getting it, it's going to be a higher quality. And it's got a natural, cooling, breathable magic I'm going to call it.

[Christine]

And it's clinically proven to clog pores. They also have a wicked and a Harry Potter line. So like, if you're, you know, on the, on the fence, I think that's gonna, that's gonna win you over. It was also voted the most loved gift of 2024. Sorry, these are just all amazing, like little fun facts for you because you're a listener. Blissey is offering 60 nights risk free plus an additional 30% off when you [e-mail] DrinkPod that's B L I S.

[Em]

S Y.com Drink Pod. And use code Drink Pod to get an additional 30% off your skin and hair. Will. Thank you. You. I need to go back to sleep. Everybody, this is a story for you. It is not a three parter. It's not a two parter, and it's not about a little French girl who's lying either.

[Christine]

Could it be about a two parter where there are two episodes in the middle that I didn't realize were two episodes? And then I really. I really stirred up some. Some sure did. Much, much. Some. Some deserved criticism, but also, like, a lot of feelings. And I.

[Em]

It's not even that.

[Christine]

Okay, good.

[Em]

And it's not even a story about Catholicism and Protestantism.

[Christine]

You know what? That's the best news I've heard all day.

[Em]

Protestantism? Is that what it is?

[Christine]

Yep.

[Em]

Okay, great. It's not about that. This is about a prison. And.

[Christine]

Oh, good.

[Em]

And it's a prison in Joyce.

[Christine]

Okay. I like a haunted person. I mean, I don't like a haunted.

[Em]

Prison, but I like a haunted prison a lot more than Catholicism, than a.

[Christine]

Haunted church or a haunted.

[Em]

Or like, multiple live public exorcisms.

[Christine]

No, you. We both knew we'd be there. We'd be at the front row.

[Em]

Oh, we would be. We would have bought the fast pass. Okay, so this is the Burlington County Prison in Mount Holly, New Jersey. I did these notes several days ago, so I don't even totally remember this just perfectly. So if I'm impressed with you, then that's the ride we're gonna ride.

[Christine]

I love that.

[Em]

So up until this point, this was the early 1800s, and the previous jail was too far away. They wanted to build one that was closer to transport prisoners. Plus, I think, because I remember a source saying that because the original jail was so far away, it made flight risks easier, either getting them there, or once they got there, they were so far away from the courthouse that it was easier to flee. People find out later that they had escaped.

[Christine]

Yeah, there's, like, more time to. To. To hide.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

More places, more rate of a circumference, a wider circumference, more room for activities. So that was through up until the early 1800s. I think there was, like, two jails before this one in New Jersey. And I saw, too, that the original jail in this area was just somebody's house, and he just put them there in the. In his basement.

[Christine]

That feels so like a serial killer being like, no, this isn't my house. This is a jail. That's why I have people in the basement.

[Em]

It's like, no, no, no, I'm doing a service.

[Christine]

Yeah, no, no, these are bad guys. I just put them in my basement for jail.

[Em]

So two jails later, they're like, this isn't going to work. So they decide, I think, in 1806, that they're going to break ground and actually make the first real county prison that is next to the courthouse and not someone's house. It's not easy for flight risks. You could transport the prisoners pretty easily. So by 1811, it took five years. But by 1811, the Burlington County Prison was built. And it was built by Robert Mills. This was one of his first designs. And he later went on to build the U.S. treasury Building. He built the U.S. patent Office. He built the U.S. post office, which, like, I thought there was a hundred of those, but I guess he built.

[Christine]

The post office 500,000 of those.

[Em]

But yeah, he built either the first one or the oldest one or the main one. I don't know.

[Christine]

Or the coolest one, maybe. I don't know.

[Em]

He also built the national monument, and he built the wings of Independence Hall.

[Christine]

The wings of. Oh, like the wings.

[Em]

And then it flew away just like us in Vietnam.

[Christine]

I swear to God, I was like, oh, again with the wings. Oh, no. Like west wing.

[Em]

Yes. So he ended up. Can you hear him, by the way?

[Christine]

I thought you meant the guy, the ghost guy. You were like, so he built the wings, and he ended up, by the way, can you hear him? And I was like, in my head.

[Em]

Do you hear the people say, singing the song?

[Christine]

I was like, hey, bud, can you hear him? Him? Because then maybe I should call somebody. Maybe this dog really has, like, got you to your end of your rope.

[Em]

That's just what my brain just went.

[Christine]

It just says, so sorry. No, I do not hear the dog. No.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

That's also why I was confused. I was like, I don't hear anything.

[Em]

Okay. He's doing the dog thing and it's.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. People with hearing problems just blame Geo if that's the case, you know.

[Em]

Okay, cool. Got it. Okay, great. I love that he's gonna take one for the team today. That's great.

[Christine]

He all listen. It's the least he can do, that dog. Okay.

[Em]

Okay. So. Okay, so that was Robert Mills. He built all those things. And then. But before all that, he, I guess, practice his skills on this prison. And he built this. At the time in 1811, it was considered state of the art. I don't know how state of the art it can be in 1811. Maybe the fact that it's not in someone's basement was.

[Christine]

That's a good. That's a good point.

[Em]

It was. That had arched ceilings to help with air circulation, and the building was fireproof. That was pretty cool.

[Christine]

I mean, that's good. If you're building a prison, at least you're caring enough about air circulation.

[Em]

Yeah, that's. It's a kind. Okay. So Burlington county was also the first prison to have heat because they. He put fireplaces in all of the cells. I guess that's why he needed to be fireproof.

[Christine]

Okay, that tracks. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah. But it was the first prison to have heat because how many times have I talked about old prisons where the conditions were so people are freezing at night and blah, blah, blah.

[Christine]

It's really. It's really sad. So, I mean, I want to be like, yay. But also, I don't want to be like yay, because it's a prison and it's 1811, and I'm like.

[Em]

It's like when a guy calls someone pretty and it's like, I'm not going to cheer for that. That's like bare minimum. Thank you.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Okay. So it was designed with rehabilitation in mind, unlike maybe today's system, but it was designed with rehabilitation in mind and actually caring for the prisoners to the best that they could, which is why they now finally had heat. It was. The prison was known. It's known today as the first modern prison in the country. Okay. Or maybe the first attempt at being modern. So, one, it was heated by the fireplaces. Two, the basement had a workshop for inmates to work to pay off their debts and help develop skills for when they were released. However, the average time in this jail was only 90 days. So I don't know how much they were actually learning in time. But that being said, the skills they were learning were like broom and basket making. So maybe it only took 90 days to learn something like that. And I don't know how lucrative that is in the 1800s if you're gonna get out and then make millions making brooms.

[Christine]

I mean, what do they do now? Like, license plates? And what's the other thing? They're like firefighters. And then they're not allowed to even be firefighters after they're released. And it's like. Like, why the. Do you have them fighting fires and then they don't even get a job? Whatever.

[Em]

And the pay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, I guess it's. It's similar enough where they're saying, oh, well, you have a job, but not really.

[Christine]

I see the idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Another way it was modern was that it was the first prison to put inmates into cell blocks based on their crimes versus like, like having them all in one big ass room.

[Christine]

Smorgasbord. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

So before this prisons would just put everyone in a room regardless of their crime. Also regardless of their age and regardless of their sex.

[Christine]

And sex, that was always the scary part. Like age, sex and then like having a mix of every possible type of crime. I mean, woof.

[Em]

Yeah. So this one, it was one of I think the first prisons to also separate the women and children from men first. I, I, it was, it did separate the women and children from men, but I think it was the first, I don't, I'm not too sure.

[Christine]

Got it. Okay.

[Em]

I'm pretty sure it was, I would.

[Christine]

Say that's pretty modern, I suppose.

[Em]

Certainly more modern than anything. Can you imagine if MAGA existed back then and they heard that we were keeping the women safe and they're like why can't men's rights something stupid. Fun fact, when I say regardless of age and sex, that still includes children too. Because it's documented that children as young as were incarcerated here.

[Christine]

I just can't understand. But whatever, like when did.

[Em]

That's something you should cover one day like as a topic is like the history of when 18 became the line and like when did juvies begin and.

[Christine]

Can you imagine that'll be a 60,000 parter because like yeah, that's a lot.

[Em]

Of history to cover.

[Christine]

Yeah. And also like I'll be on sometimes my. I only go on Facebook to see pictures of like haunted houses because I'm in all those like Victorian groups and I'm like I've deactivated everything else. I just like look at these posts and I, I saw one of like recently that I've seen a few times of like little girls who shucked oysters for a living. And it was like Moira is four and it was like 1830 and it's just like, and they're like so excited in their little dresses but like they get up at 6am to go shuck oysters for, to make like 18 cents for their family to survive. And it's like oh Jesus. So there's so much I feel like wrapped up. Not even just like, like yeah, prison system, then like legal marriage age and like statutory rape and then like labor laws.

[Em]

Like it's just like it's, there's probably its own podcast.

[Christine]

Honestly that'd Be its own dissertation. I feel like. Like an actual academic study. I'm sure it is. But anyway. Yeah, that's fascinating but also so sad.

[Em]

Yeah. So as young as 12, and I think the women and children were housed, I think together. And then the rest of the blocks were men.

[Christine]

Okay. I mean, at least that. I guess.

[Em]

At least that. So the women could barely leave their cells, though. Yay, feminism. We're so modern. They could barely leave their cells. They could not eat in the chow hall. They allegedly could not even work in the workshops or go outside during rec time. And our favorite, they also still had to raise their children while in prison so their kids would move in with them.

[Christine]

What the.

[Em]

Dude, isn't that fun? Them. What? The infants and toddlers are documented. Documented to have lived here in their mother's cells. Some were even born in the cell and then raised while incarceration during incident.

[Christine]

That's like room.

[Em]

Yeah. It's literally just that they moved into a new apartment with a fireplace. Hey. And it's fireproof, so. But don't leave the room.

[Christine]

But you're not allowed to leave. Yeah.

[Em]

So that's fun. There was. I did see there was at least like a six month old, I think, that moved in with a mom, like, who had been like, put in prison right after giving birth this baby.

[Christine]

And it's like, I guess mother's not separated if she wants to, but like.

[Em]

Also, I guess maybe now you're maybe in there.

[Christine]

Yeah. I don't know. It feels like there's pros and cons.

[Em]

To that, I guess. Like, it's like it would be cruel in a different way to like separate a baby and a mom and just.

[Christine]

Like put the kid in like foster care at 6 months old or something. Right. If there were. If there wasn't another parent to care for them. But like.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Also it's not cute. The rest is not cute, though.

[Em]

I. I'm. I like to think because so few children were documented here unless they were incarcerated for a crime they committed.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

So few of them just moved in that I like to think it was on a basis of, like, if you couldn't find anybody else.

[Christine]

Right, right, right. That. Yeah, I would hope so. I would hope so.

[Em]

So another fun fact is that women during this time were. This is. This has nothing to do with the story. I just thought this was interesting that. Hi, Hank. Oh, boy. Hi. Hi. You can't possibly be done with both of your toys. No. Ah, leave it. Absolutely not. That's my headphone cord. Don't need to get it out of your mouth. Please. Okay, okay. No, no. Okay, okay. No, leave it.

[Christine]

I'm trying to make it just you on the screen, and I can't leave it.

[Em]

No, you can't. I know.

[Christine]

You know.

[Em]

Leave it. Don't be an asshole. Please give me my headphones back. Stupid mouth. I'm trying to figure out how to.

[Christine]

Show more of your screens. I can't do it.

[Em]

I know. I'm laughing. So you think this is funny? It's not. I'm gonna give you another toy. Okay. I'm gonna give you another toy. You're being a puppy.

[Christine]

It.

[Em]

No.

[Christine]

The booty. Booty, Booty, booty. Look at that. W.

[Em]

I'm sorry. Oh.

[Christine]

You have anything to say? I want to stop. I'm.

[Em]

Okay. Thank you.

[Christine]

Actually, can Hank and I just do the podcast together?

[Em]

Did he have anything insightful to say to that?

[Christine]

M. Yeah, it was. Is game changing.

[Em]

Okay. No. Alice's gonna be mad because.

[Christine]

Puppiest, mouthiest puppy I know.

[Em]

And he's not hurting. He's not, like, biting. He just wants to play.

[Christine]

He was mouthy, but.

[Em]

But Allison's gonna be mad because we. We learned no biting. We learned no biting, but now we have it on record that I'm not being as mean to you as I need to be.

[Christine]

There's nothing more that I love more than the mouthy little puppy.

[Em]

And I know you want to do this. Great.

[Christine]

Yes. I literally do. Please. I mean, not, like, for long term, but just for, like, gentle a few minutes. See?

[Em]

He learned.

[Christine]

See?

[Em]

As soon as I said gentle.

[Christine]

What a sweet.

[Em]

Nope, not a water bottle. Oh, my God. So this is random. This has nothing to do with the actual prison. But I. I learned about it while I was researching it, and I thought it was interesting that women during this time. Because anti feminism, of course, women this. At. During this time were charged with adultery far more than men. That does not surprise me. But, yeah, to see it on paper made me sad.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's wild. Because for men, it was just, like, that's meant. Boys will be boys, you know, it's just, like, par for the course, but for a woman like God, you have your duties, you know?

[Em]

And also, like, if he's doing it, like, you know, the Lord, something, whatever.

[Christine]

Well, no, if he's doing it, it's because you're not. Not. You're not. You're not.

[Em]

Oh, you're not doing your part.

[Christine]

You're not doing enough. Right? Yeah.

[Em]

Disgusting. Another.

[Christine]

Keeping him satisfied, huh?

[Em]

Yeah, he's straying because he has to find something that you don't offer him. Right, yeah, I've always said that.

[Christine]

And we've always said that.

[Em]

So another fun fact I learned was before 1900, prostitution was almost never a charge like, you see constantly in the 1900s, but it's probably because the word just changed. And it seems that before 1900, in, like, prisons, the census or something of people who are incarcerated, a lot of women were charged with disorderly conduct, and they were charged with disorderly conduct with the frequency that after 1900, they were charged with prostitution. Okay, so fun fact, if you're looking at a census or you're looking at information before 1900 and you see disorderly conduct is probably sex work.

[Christine]

And it's so wild because it's like, well, obviously there's a clientele. Right. I wonder who that is. You know, I mean, obviously this is just the people rehashed news, but, like, it's just like. It just gets so fucking old, man.

[Em]

Yeah. So anyway, I just wanted to bring those up because I thought they were interesting. So when a new inmate would be brought to the prison, they would be washed and given new clothes in case of lice. I like that. They were trying, I guess, for lice only.

[Christine]

Well, no, they probably just didn't want to deal with a lice infestation in the prison one.

[Em]

Yes. Yeah, Obviously they also would get a straw mattress. Yay.

[Christine]

Good.

[Em]

And a blissy pillowcase. No, I'm just kidding.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I wish. Yeah, Helix mattress. Listen, this is when I'm like, when we do these, like, ads, and I'm like, this is real, people. I've never been so comfortable. But then I hear, like, a straw mattress. I'm like, well, I guess, like, literally anything would be better than a straw.

[Em]

Imagine if you transported one of these women charged with adultery who's watching her baby right now in prison. Imagine if you brought her to 2025 and showed her a Helix mattress. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Although, then I wonder, what were people sleeping on? Maybe they were sleeping on straw mattresses at home. Like, I don't know. It's not like they had Helix mattresses.

[Em]

Yeah, but I wonder. I wonder if people had, like, a brand of straw that was the best straw. Maybe, you know.

[Christine]

Oh, you know what? We could probably go through old, like, newspaper archives and find, like, the ads.

[Em]

Oh, yeah.

[Christine]

Dr. Heyman's best straw for sleeping.

[Em]

Heyman. That's beautiful. Did you do that on purpose?

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

You're literally meant to be an Freudian joke. That was the craziest thing I've ever seen in my.

[Christine]

That was like the time I named. That was like the time I named Deb the Web and Skyler. And you were like. Because it was on a skylight. And you said, oh, yeah, Christine. It's your friend. What's her name? And I went, skyler. And you were like, what the fuck did you come up with? I was like, I don't know why? And you said like, skylight. And I was like, oh, I didn't even put that together.

[Em]

There's something that has yet to be peer reviewed about you.

[Christine]

It's a sickness. Yeah, it's a sickness. Have you heard my no CD ad? Because that might be something that might be related. Speaking of ads, Dads. Well, anyway, thank you for even pointing out the joke that I didn't know I was making. I appreciate it.

[Em]

Beautiful.

[Christine]

Made me feel better.

[Em]

So if people get washed and given new clothes in case of lice, they would get only Mr. Heyman's finest straw for their straw master.

[Christine]

Doctor. Thank you so much. Dr. Heyman to you, please.

[Em]

An MF Masters of Farming. Masters of Straw.

[Christine]

An MA A Master of Agriculture. Oh, straw. Straw. Good. Straw is good.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah. They would get a straw mattress, they would get a bucket, and they would get a tiny Bible, even though most people couldn't read.

[Christine]

Excellent.

[Em]

But Mills believed that part of the rehabilitation of this prison should include religion, Right? So if you could read, then you would. Either you could read the Bible for yourself or you could read it to others. And you're.

[Christine]

You're treading on the nice here, my friend. You said there was. This was not about Catholicism or.

[Em]

And I don't even know which religious.

[Christine]

That's a great point. Maybe it was a Mormon Bible.

[Em]

Maybe, I don't know. Plot twist the motto over the prison door, by the way. I would say, do you.

[Christine]

This ought to be good.

[Em]

I was gonna say, do you wanna guess? But I just know that there's no way you would guess these words.

[Christine]

I can't wait.

[Em]

Unless. Like, if you did, I would give you a million dollars.

[Christine]

Okay, hold on, let me think. Think.

[Em]

You. There's no guess. I'll. If you get one word, I will venmo you a hundred dollars today.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. That's how many post offices there are.

[Em]

Okay, you know what? I rescind my invitation. No, let me guess.

[Christine]

Okay, One of the words is prosperity. No, one of the words is two t o.

[Em]

Yes. You get $50.

[Christine]

I should have said that one for a second.

[Em]

Okay. It's justice, which, while it punishes would endeav reform the offender.

[Christine]

Oh, for sake. Okay, I get it. So they're basically saying, we're gonna fix you here.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. While it punishes, it's also good for you.

[Christine]

It's gonna hurt, but it's gonna.

[Em]

It hurts me more than it hurts you.

[Christine]

Right? Oh, my God. It's for your better good. It's for your. It's for your own good. Yuck.

[Em]

So food, by the way, was not good. I don't know if you could tell, but. Okay, so it was a modern prison, and it was modern and it had enough of a budget where the food should have been good. However, the warden was told that he could keep the difference between whatever he bought for the prisoners and like, within the budget he was given. A big ass budget. Apparently at the. Apparently at the time, this was a lot of money. But each prisoner was supposed to get up to A$50 worth of food every day.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And I don't know what the actual number ended up being, but that was the number they were supposed to be given. And he, the warden ended up pocketing a lot of that and giving them shittier food and buying.

[Christine]

Going to Burlington Coat Factory like Michael Scott and getting a coat for himself instead of, like, pretty much using the extra money for good.

[Em]

So by definition, it was a modern jail with, like high quality everything, but the warden was kind of under the table doing some shady stuff. So the warden, by the way, lived on the property and his wife was expected to oversee the women's ward, which, like, I love that that was that part of their fucking vows. Like, why.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. Yikes.

[Em]

I'm gonna marry you. Oh, and by the way, can you watch the women's ward of this prison for me?

[Christine]

No. Too bad. You have to, honey.

[Em]

I just got promoted to warden. Guess you're gonna now not get paid to watch the women for me.

[Christine]

You got an internship. An unpaid internship.

[Em]

You did it. Wow. And that was until 1909, by the way. And as of 1909, then they started hiring someone to actually watch the women squad. But up until then, it was for like 100 years. It was the warden's wife's job.

[Christine]

It's a wild trip. Choice.

[Em]

Another fun fact is that one inmate at this prison was Albert DeSalvo, and he was here. He was here for lewd and indecent exposure. And that's it. But he later went on to become the Boston Strangler.

[Christine]

Yes. I was like, the name. The name. I wrote that chapter. A chapter on him on the. In our first Book.

[Em]

So before he ever started strangling, he was doing some lewd stuff which got him put in this jail or at.

[Christine]

Least before he was ever caught for doing some strangling.

[Em]

So the basement had the workshop where maybe only the men could make baskets and brooms. Usually the basement would be the dungeon of a prison or like max security, because it's like in the rumblings of the foundation.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

But in this jail, one of the other modern things about it was that their dungeon, which they called it a dungeon, is on the top floor and it's the center. And it's the center cell of the.

[Christine]

Top floor penthouse suite.

[Em]

Yeah. Right. So this was one to stop inmates from digging their way out. So if they're on upstairs.

[Christine]

Right. Like some Shawshank shit.

[Em]

Yes. They. It was also to stop communicating with other people without guards ears around.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

You know.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Because otherwise they could be murmuring down there.

[Christine]

Right. Fair point.

[Em]

And it was also to guarantee that guards were monitoring them because if they were in the center cell, the guards had to constantly be passing them.

[Christine]

Gotcha. Okay. Okay. So they're like on display more.

[Em]

Pretty much.

[Christine]

Right?

[Em]

Yeah. So this. There was only one cell like this and it was the only cell without a fireplace. Because I guess you.

[Christine]

That's your punishment.

[Em]

It's to feel like a dungeon. It's cold. Yeah.

[Christine]

Even though you have a beautiful view of the joy shoreline.

[Em]

But not really, because the next thing I'm going to say is that they had a very tiny window and it was too high up for them to look through.

[Christine]

I spoke too soon. Okay.

[Em]

They were also expected if you were staying in the dungeon. There was a ring in the center of the ground and you were chained to it. And you were chained to it naked.

[Christine]

Okay. Wow. This just got very.

[Em]

So that way you could use any of your clothes as a weapon or of harm and to keep you in the center. So that way you couldn't try anything anyway.

[Christine]

Okay, that's. That's rough. Yep.

[Em]

So the dungeon is the worst room out in the yard. There were stocks like we put the holes you put your hands and legs in. And there was a spot for gallows to be set up and broken down. Oh, good. The dungeon was used. If you're wondering why it was like so harsh. It was usually used as the last night before an execution. It was just to keep you from trying to get away.

[Christine]

So they would just like chain you nude to a circle with no window, knowing that it was your last day on earth. Like, what the actual fuck? I mean. Mean, it's not like execution in and of itself is like a delightful thing, obviously. But yeah, there's no good way.

[Em]

But no.

[Christine]

Right, like, but like no wonder this place is haunted, you know, like God.

[Em]

So seven people were hanged on the property.

[Christine]

Woof. Okay.

[Em]

Then there were two more people who stayed at this prison.

[Christine]

I am so sorry. We really try not to talk about this anymore because it's probably annoying, but m just was saying two more people and a bunch of balloon. The MacBooks have these effects and if you're not careful, you'll be counting and it'll be like, oh, are we celebrating? And it's like, why the would I be celebrating? I'm talking about executions on a prison.

[Em]

Ground so messed up.

[Christine]

Anyway, just for the folks who are not watching the video and can't see us, like do like a. We are our eyes dilating, Our eyes going, ah. Okay. Woof. Okay, go on.

[Em]

Seven. Seven were hanged on the grounds. There were two others who lived here and were technically on death throw, but they were executed elsewhere.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay.

[Em]

One of those two people was a woman who killed her husband. The other person was a guy named Joel and he stabbed either his girlfriend to death or a woman who rejected him to death. Different sources say different things. I'm gonna go with a woman who rejected.

[Christine]

Yeah, bad. Yeah.

[Em]

And his name was Joel. He was one of the people who was executed elsewhere but stayed here. So I only mentioned that because he is going to get brought up again later.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

As for the prisoners that were executed on the property, most of them died of strangulation and not actually the broken neck.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

The final two people to be hanged here, it was done at the same time because they were both co accomplices in the same murder. So that's a fun fact, I guess. Double. Double murder.

[Christine]

That's like Pearl Bryan's two. Two people simultaneously hanged.

[Em]

Yes. And that was in 1906. That was the last execution here.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And fun fact. At their. At their double execution, it was obviously a public execution. And the ropes used to kill them were cut up and taken to souvenirs by the crowd.

[Christine]

Oh God. I mean.

[Em]

Which I guess was common at the time, but it's still so wild to even say.

[Christine]

It's one of those things to me that I almost feel like one person does it and then someone's like, okay, I guess we're all doing it and like. Yeah, it kind of becomes a thing.

[Em]

Where it's like, you know, someone did that and then like brought it as a gift to someone. It's like, oh, you couldn't be there, but I got this for you. And someone's like, thanks, I guess.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's a red flag.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So I was thinking of you the whole time. Like, I sure hope not.

[Em]

Jesus Christ. So in the 1920s. Yes, this was. This is. I'm just going to start talking about some of the deaths that happen on the property. So during an escape attempt, an inmate beat a guard to death with a metal bar. Then on his way out, he had to pass the kitchen, and another guard was there and saw him escaping. So he beat that guard to death with the same metal bar.

[Christine]

Jesus Christ. Okay.

[Em]

Interestingly, years later, there would be another escape attempt where the exact same thing happened where, with a metal bar, a guard was killed. And then on the way out in the kitchen, another guard was killed with a metal bar.

[Christine]

What, like, repeated this? The same thing happened again. Wow. Creepy.

[Em]

Isn't that weird?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

There were actually several escapes over the years. At least 70 on record, but definitely more. And that's 70 in, like 150 years or something. So that's like one almost every other year.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Em]

In 1876, this is one of the most popular escape things, escape attempts. Is that the 1870s. Five men. Men. This is like breaking into Wallace. Five men punched a hole through the ceiling of their prison cell. Like, just kept punching until there was a hole in the ceiling.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Em]

Like, was it just shitty drywall? Like, what was the quality of these materials that you could just punch through a ceiling?

[Christine]

I guess maybe if you're thinking of, like, building a prison, you're like, oh, we'll just make the walls really thick. And then you don't think to make the ceiling really thick? I have no idea.

[Em]

Did they all stand on. It's like, sit on each other's shoulders so they could get up there and just.

[Christine]

Right. Was it like the one in the top. The penthouse suite? Like, were they up there standing on the ring or something? Like, I don't know. That's crazy.

[Em]

Yeah. Five of them all, and then only four of them could escape because the fifth one couldn't fit out of the hole that they punched by that. That's almost like we were rooting for you.

[Christine]

It's almost quite sad. Yeah.

[Em]

Another escape attempt. Remember this one? His name is Eddie.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

This was in 1933. He tried to escape, and he was in the after dinner gang. Have you ever heard about that?

[Christine]

Them, the after dinner gang? Vaguely. I think I have, but I don't know.

[Em]

They were a. A group in New Jersey, where they would rob wealthy homes of people who were out to dinner.

[Christine]

Oh, that's kind of clever. I mean, you know, not approving of that, but like, I get it, you know, I like the name.

[Em]

It's whimsical.

[Christine]

It does. It feels a little more whimsical than it actually is.

[Em]

Yeah, you have to did a gang see.

[Christine]

Yeah, it feels. Feels old timey. Yeah.

[Em]

So Eddie escaped by sawing his window bars off and then rapunzeling down the building with his bed sheets.

[Christine]

Wow. Wow.

[Em]

So we'll talk about him again later. So Eddie and Joel. Joel is one of the people who got executed off the property. Okay. So in the 60s, this building closed after a bigger. It needed a bigger facility. And when it did close. This is a fun fact about the prison. It was the oldest continually run prison in the country. Country.

[Christine]

Oldest continually run. Oh, wow. Okay.

[Em]

So when it first opened, it was the most. It was the first modern prison in the country and it was the oldest continuously used.

[Christine]

I bet you it was the first prison to have a hole punched through the ceiling from the inside. But I mean, I could be. I could be wrong.

[Em]

Usually it's three people in a trench coat. This time it was five. And they were all punch in the air. Yeah. So there was countless violence here. I mean, I. I just scraped over some of the. Of course, but there was obviously at least seven executions here. There were murders here of guards and inmates. There were suicides. There was a lot of darkness. And now it is one of the most haunted buildings in New Jersey. So it has been haunted since at least the 1830s.

[Christine]

Wow. Wow. Oh, yeah. That was early from when it. When was it? 18.

[Em]

1811. So 22 years then it was already haunted.

[Christine]

Oh, boy.

[Em]

Which I've. Every time. I know we always talk about this and we're like stupid Americans and like there are buildings much older than ours. Anytime there's a ghost beyond like the 40s, I'm blown away. Like, I just. I just forget that, like there could be people back then that were also dealing with ghosts.

[Christine]

It just doesn't always, like. Like if they had haunted experience. Yeah, well, remember the Victorians, though? You where they like, loved. Loved ghosts.

[Em]

I know, but it still doesn't even like cross my mind.

[Christine]

It's kind of wild to think because now. Yeah, because now we feel like they're the ghosts. The Victorian lady in a big dress, even though she was the one doing. No, maybe that's why she's always a ghost, because she was the one doing seances. All the time. And she's like, yeah.

[Em]

It's like chicken or the egg. It's like, were you the ghost, or did you create the ghost?

[Christine]

Yeah. Wow. Deep.

[Em]

I know. Hank, did you hear that? I'm deep.

[Christine]

Don't you dare bring him back over there. Em. You're gonna. You're gonna regret it.

[Em]

He's eating a peanut butter ball. He's fine.

[Christine]

He's good.

[Em]

So, yeah, the 1830s was their first ghost, and it was that guy Joel, who was executed off the property.

[Christine]

Wow. He came back, huh?

[Em]

He came back immediately. And so he went to the prison, then he tried to escape. And when they caught him, they're like, okay, we can't trust you. We're going to put you in the dungeon, and then you're just going to stay there until we can hang you.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Despite being hanged elsewhere, he was buried on the property.

[Christine]

Oh. So they brought him back. Okay.

[Em]

After he died, they brought him back, and now where he's buried, there is a very large tree. So after his hanging, guards and prisoners always hear. Hear voices and moaning and rattling chains, both in his old cell and near that tree.

[Christine]

Ooh, rattling chains always gets me.

[Em]

And he was. Would have been the only person chained because he was in the dungeon and.

[Christine]

He was getting executed. Oh, yuck. Okay.

[Em]

People also smell cigarettes. He's apparently the oldest ghost of them all here. I can't imagine being a ghost since the 1830s. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

Talk about needing a career change.

[Christine]

But hopefully it's true what they say, that these. That these career change. These ghosts don't really understand time. I'm always like, that's all I can hope for is that they don't understand time, because. Woof. That would be. I'm sorry. I've said wolf five times today, and I. The first time I said it, I.

[Em]

Are you pink?

[Christine]

I. I know. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe we're speaking telepathically.

[Em]

Sleeper agent.

[Christine]

I was thinking, don't say that anymore. But I think then the reverse psychology hit me where I was, like, trying not to say it, so it kept coming into my. My consciousness. Anyway, I do apologize. I know that really some people. And it kind of bothers me, so I'm like, why do I keep doing. I don't know. It's just something about it. When I over it, it annoys me. Like I.

[Em]

It's like when I say raw dog. Christine hates it.

[Christine]

Oh, I hate it.

[Em]

Oh, Christine also says it.

[Christine]

I did it. I did say. It's like, becomes. And hey, have you heard My. No CD ad. Because it becomes an intrusive thought. You know what? I think that's literally what's happening. If it felt like an intrusive thought and then I couldn't stop saying it. So I do apologize. But the.

[Em]

The.

[Christine]

The sentiment stands. Yikes. I'll say it that way.

[Em]

Sure, sure. So in the 1990s, they started doing renovations on this place. They started in the 1990s after like 200 years.

[Christine]

They were like, what do we do about these fireplaces that are the only.

[Em]

Hole in the ceiling?

[Christine]

Yeah, there's a big hole in the ceiling. Jesus.

[Em]

So workers saw apparitions, they heard voices, tools went missing, and they found. Oh, so tools went missing. This part's really creepy. Usually it's like, oh. And then they were found in another area. Apparently they were found in locked cells.

[Christine]

Oh, the items. Oh. Oh, yuck.

[Em]

Isn't that crazy?

[Christine]

That's cool. That's. That's.

[Em]

That actually is kind of bitching. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's bitching. Oh, yeah.

[Em]

Some workers started actually trying to get out of work early just so they weren't the last ones there, which I totally get.

[Christine]

Yep.

[Em]

And they were so freaked out. Out that I guess enough of them refused to come back. And it led to the county officials having to reach out to paranormal investigators to verify these claims.

[Christine]

Oh, my Lord. Okay, okay.

[Em]

And right away, investigators are getting activity. They've done many investigations since. According to them, the most active hours are 8pm to midnight. The third floor where the dungeon is, is the most haunted. The most common haunt is a man in a prison uniform walking in the basement.

[Christine]

Ew.

[Em]

Don't like that. People have seen apparitions in empty cells. They've also seen apparitions on the stairs. They've seen items in the dungeon levitating. They have seen objects move on their own or knock themselves off of shelves. One time, investigators found a, quote, single barefoot print on the dust covered floor in a room that nobody had gone to. That's barefoot.

[Christine]

That's really bad.

[Em]

Bad toes and all.

[Christine]

Because, like, then you look around, you're like, anyone here barefoot?

[Em]

It's like, everyone, show me your shoes.

[Christine]

Hey, anybody at work right now barefoot? No. Huh.

[Em]

So one investigator went over to the gallows and actually they alleged they were. They got frozen in place. Like, not of their volition, like paralyzed almost. They got paralyzed and then saw an apparition of two men being brought to the gallows. Was.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. So they basically saw like a vision.

[Em]

Machines will turn off by themselves, especially near the tree where Joel was buried. People hear conversations all over the place. They'll. I mean, they'll hear two people talking when they know no one else is talking. They've gotten EVPs of men speaking into the machines for them. Investigators have gotten videos of orbs at the same moment that a motion sensor alarm goes off so they like can see something moving at the same time. It triggers. People have gotten pictures of humanoid figures and moving shadows. People see lights in the cells turn on and off or I guess like anomalies, light anomalies. People have gotten their hair pulled. And this is my least favorite thing is a stretcher has moved itself around the floor. No firm pass.

[Christine]

Why is there a stretcher in there? First of all, I guess, where else are you going to put it?

[Em]

Great question.

[Christine]

But like, yikes, if you don't want a stretcher rolling around your prison, your old haunted prison, don't put a stretcher in there. That's my. It's like putting a rocking chair in your room. Like, you know what's gonna happen.

[Em]

I kind of do want to know, like the origin of the stretcher. Like, is that a 200 year old stretcher or did someone bring that as a funny thing or is it like.

[Christine]

There for like emergency, like a, like as an emergency kit and it's just like getting tossed around. Who knows?

[Em]

My best guess is it's like a Zach Baggins brought it for a bit and then left and then didn't want.

[Christine]

To bring it back.

[Em]

Yeah, or like a Halloween thing. Yeah, I don't know.

[Christine]

Yeah, it could be a Halloween thing. That's true.

[Em]

So like I said, the hotel officially closed in the 60s and the mid-60s after needing a bigger facility. And now it is on the National Register of Historic Places and runs as a museum. They do self guided tours, audio tours, and they do personal guided tours if you set it up early enough on display. I thought this was interesting. Some of the things that are here. There is a. Yikes. A piece of rope from that execution that is now on display at the prison. Which, like, did the prison keep it or did someone like have to ebay buy that? Like.

[Christine]

No, I bet. I bet you somebody like had it just that there. If it was like, if a bunch of people in the area had just been collecting them, somebody might have like donated it to the museum.

[Em]

That's a great point.

[Christine]

You know, like when I go to the art museum last month and I see this like these beautiful Egyptian artifacts, a literal mummy, and then it says like, donated by like Barbara so and so and I'm like, what are you doing with this? Well, it's like their white ancestors, like, all stole, and now they're like, oops, here, have it. You know, which I. I'm like, at least they're giving it to the museum. But I see that a lot where it's like, yikes. Yeah.

[Em]

Anyway, well, another thing that they have on display in this museum now is a mini replica of the SS St. Paul boat. Because apparently an inmate worked on that boat and from memory while he was incarcerated, he made the boat out of spare items he found around the prison. And so now that little replica is. Oh, that's kind of cool. I mean. Yeah, I guess you do a lot by memory at that point. You just like, I guess I'll just make this. I got nothing else going on.

[Christine]

That's actually kind of cool, I guess.

[Em]

Not only is the prison a museum, but here's the thing. This is my favorite fun fact, and I don't know how to feel about it, but you do what you want with this. Remember Eddie from the After Dinner gang? And he escaped by rapunzeling down with his bed sheets. This prison slash museum also offers an escape room.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

Based on Eddie's escape from the prison.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. So an interactive experience in the place.

[Em]

Where the real story happened.

[Christine]

Oh, my Lord in heaven.

[Em]

Okay, so if you would like to do that, that's.

[Christine]

Are you supposed to climb out of a window with a bed sheet? I hope that's not part of it, because I feel.

[Em]

I think it's all, like, symbolic or something.

[Christine]

Okay. Because I was like, how would they do that? That feels like a really bad idea.

[Em]

I don't know. And I got. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like I'm holier than thou. And if I were in this prison and I was going on a museum tour and I heard there was an escape room, I'd probably do these.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting idea, I guess. It's not like they're doing an interactive, like, execution you. But yes.

[Em]

100.

[Christine]

But, like, it's just strange. Like, the whole thing was. He climbed out the window. So it's like, what is the actual.

[Em]

Maybe it's like you need to find the bed sheets to be able to escape. I don't know. But. But I thought it was. I thought it was interesting. Yeah, like the. I don't know why more people haven't tried that as, like, a bit of, like, an escape room in a jail where people escaped. Yeah.

[Christine]

I mean, it could be in a really interesting, like, way to tell the history, right?

[Em]

Like, yeah. And in a world of capitalism, it would make quite a few places on preservation society lists. I would say some money if.

[Christine]

I mean, if the places that are do. I don't see why. Well, I don't see it's any less ethical than places that do haunted hou. Haunted house in old prisons. More ethical, a little bit, I would say, because. Anyway. But yeah, interesting.

[Em]

Wow. So the last thing I'll say is that the prison also offered it. It offered itself up. I don't know if this was just for Halloween or people only do it on Halloween by choice, but it offers itself up as a wedding venue.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And recently this was in People magazine. During Halloween, three couples got married. They all dressed up, and like. Like, one of them dressed up like they were in the Beetlejuice wedding. Like, they, like, intentionally leaning into the spooky. And it was officiated by the county clerk, who dressed up in witch's robes. Okay. And the building has recently had a $3 million restoration project done to it, so it is very restored compared to what it was. One main goal was to preserve as much of the wall graffiti as possible.

[Christine]

Oh, cool.

[Em]

And the graffiti is only from the 1950s because that was the last time that the walls were painted. So it's not from the 1800s, but it's 1950s. And a lot of the graffiti here is noticeably religious compared to other prisons where it's more violent and sexual. So it confirms that maybe the religion was helping with their reh, maybe. Or they were just leaning into it. Maybe it was, like, for good behavior. It's like, well, I graffitied Jesus on the wall.

[Christine]

Look at this big cross I put. Does that help? Yeah.

[Em]

Most of the graffiti is gone now, but some pieces have been saved, including countdowns of getting out of jail, love, love notes, Bible verses ahead of Jesus, and by memory, an 18th century map of Philadelphia. Oh, okay. That's wild.

[Christine]

What an interesting choice. Okay.

[Em]

In the solitary cell, the dungeon, I think there is graffiti that says, my life is in darkness. Where is God? Can you tell me where can I go? Will I ever find Him? I hope so.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

And a personal favorite is this drawing of an eyeball with the words, we're watching you. You can't get out. And then on the opposite wall, it says, don't look over the door behind you, which is where the eyeball is.

[Christine]

Oh, weird. Is that like a prank?

[Em]

I guess so. It's like a creepy fucking prank.

[Christine]

It's a creepy prank.

[Em]

Last thing I have for you because I couldn't not talk about this, is that in 2007, an escape artist came to visit the museum. Her name was the Great Sindini.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, first of all, a.

[Em]

And I guess I don't know if she came to do this or she said, I'm an escape artist. And then the. The museum curator was bored that day. I don't know how this came to be, but they decided to test the Great Sandini's abilities, and the museum let her be straight jacketed, handcuffed, and locked in the dungeon.

[Christine]

Ah.

[Em]

And then this is a quote from the article. Around 10 people watched as she was confined. Confined. And then they all walked downstairs. When they reached the bottom, they were amazed to turn around and see the Great Sandini following them on the side.

[Christine]

Never doubt the Great Cindini.

[Em]

And that is the. Not the Burlington Co Factory, the Burlington County Prison.

[Christine]

The. Oh, I didn't even make that connection when I said Burlington. No wonder it was on my mind. See, this is what I'm saying. It's all these intrusive thoughts, I swear. Wow. M. What a story. You know, I love to hear about a haunted prison. There's something, like, so obviously haunted about a prison that just makes it that much more believable, you know, like. Like a hospital. Like, of course it's on.

[Em]

Of course.

[Christine]

Yeah, of course. Wow.

[Em]

This podcast is sponsored by the crisp, refreshing Angry Orchard.

[Christine]

Listen, guys, there is a ton of stuff out there that we shouldn't get angry about. But let's be honest, sometimes it's hard not to be. Sometimes Em gets a little bit angry when the dog that they're fostering smashes ice all over the floor. Sometimes I may get a little flustered when Leona throws spinach in my face. But you know what? Instead, there's a better option. Okay? Get an angry orchard. That's what I do. And feel good, feel chill and refreshed. You won't get pissed off anymore. You'll just be having a tasty orchard. It's perfect.

[Em]

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[Christine]

Yeah, Right.

[Em]

Need an angry orchard.

[Christine]

Exactly. It is a perfect balance of sweetness and bright acidity from culinary apples and dryness of traditional cider making apples, resulting in a complex yet refreshing hard cider it's so delicious.

[Em]

Grab an angry orchard cider today. Don't get angry. Get orchard. Please drink responsibly.

[Christine]

All right. Yes. You all know that I have ocd, right? We've talked about it. It's. I finally figured out halfway through recording the podcast, not like the podcast episode, but like the years of doing the podc. I was finally diagnosed and it answered so many questions, but it didn't necessarily fix anything. OCD is so much more than just the stereotypes. It's a seriously and highly misunderstood condition that causes people to get stuck in a cycle of stressful, unwanted thoughts, repetitive behaviors. These intrusive thoughts can be scary, disturbing, completely out of character. I mean, listen, we're doing true crime and paranormal stuff. Like, it doesn't help, right?

[Em]

Not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. OCD is highly treatable with a specialized type of therapy called erp, or Exposure and Response Prevention. And general talk therapy is not recommended for OCD and can make it worse. So maybe ERP is the way.

[Christine]

Yes. I've done ERP since I was first diagnosed and it has changed my entire life. And that was before I even knew about no cd. So having this tool now is just the coolest thing. With no CD, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in OCD.

[Em]

No CD is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. And if you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD CD, please don't wait to get help. Go to nocd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's n o c d.com to Schedule A free call and learn more.

[Christine]

Well, I've got a doozy for you today. This is the story of Hannah Anderson and Jim DiMaggio. So this story takes place in 2013, specifically Saturday, August 3rd. Hannah Anderson, she is enjoying a fun yet average day at her high school's summer cheers camp. She's 16 years old. She was coaching some of the younger girls on the team. So she's sort of like, I guess you'd call it like varsity level, like helping the younger teams and helping coach them. She had an 8 year old brother named Ethan, and he was also at school on this Saturday because he had football practice.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

The younger girls that Hannah were coaching were on the squad that cheered for Ethan's team. So basically, you know, Hannah is coaching these young girls that are. That are preparing to cheer for the the football team that her brother's on. Their mother, 44 year old Christina Anderson, who went by Tina, had picked Ethan up after practice earlier that day. But cheer camp went on later into the day. So Hannah was still at school. When Hannah finished, she was expecting a ride home from her Uncle Jim. So Uncle Jim is this 48 year old guy. His birth name is James DiMaggio, but he goes by gym. He wasn't Hannah's uncle by blood, but he had been a best friend to her father, Brett for 15 years. And he was basically like the closest friend that the family had. He was always in the picture. He acted like a second father to both of the kids. He was really involved in their daily lives. He was a member of the family. People described him as caring and thoughtful. He loved animals, so he was always taking care of people's animals. And he most notably loved his gray cat Olive over and, you know, doted on him. The Andersons often relied on Jim. Hannah and her mother went through a difficult period in their relationship and like, as a lot of teenagers and their parents do and so sort of as like a journaling almost exercise or eventing, she would channel her frustrations and worries into letters that she and Jim wrote back and forth as like pen pals. So she would kind of just vent about what was going on and he would always respond with advice and words of Encouragement. Encouragement. In 2013, Hannah's parents were separated, so Tina and Brett split. Brett moved to Tennessee for work and that's when Jim stepped up to kind of be the, the stepdad role. But he never had a. There was never any signs that he had a sexual relationship with or romantic relationship with Tina. It was almost like he was just.

[Em]

Like us, like a, like a father.

[Christine]

Figure sort of type. Yeah, sure. Jim lived in a cabin in Boulevard, California, which was a mountain town with just over 300 residents in 2013. So pretty small town. And Hannah and her brother went there often. They would go when their mom wasn't able to watch them. They would ride, go karts out there. There were like just remote outdoors so they could explore and run around. Jim would speak with Brett, his friend and Hannah's dad, regularly. He cheerfully described that he had taught Ethan to shoot a BB gun and how much fun they were having having. But things kind of went downhill soon because according to one of Hannah's friends, Jim told Hannah's family that his home was in foreclosure and he would have to move out and relocate to Texas. And so they were all really sad and Honestly, I think probably stressed that this person who's been such a help was moving.

[Em]

Yeah. Getting out of there. Yeah.

[Christine]

So he invites the family over for one last weekend at the cabin. So Saturday, August 3rd, Tina had picked up Ethan from. From football practice and had gone to the cabin.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Now Hannah is getting picked up by Jim from cheer camp at 4pm and they're all going to go meet at the cabin for, like, one final. For one last hurrah. The next evening, authorities responded to a raging fire at Jim's cabin.

[Em]

Oh, shit.

[Christine]

Firefighters battled to subdue the blaze, but the situation was completely hopeless. The whole fire was consumed, and firefighters noticed smoke rising from the detached garage. And inside, they found Hannah's mom, Tina, beneath a tarp. And she had been. Oh, no.

[Em]

Oh, no.

[Christine]

She appeared to have been bound at the ankles and suffered severe bludgeoning trauma. And there was a crowbar on the floor at her side, which like, they.

[Em]

So whoever did this.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Wasn't even hiding what they did. It was. I mean, maybe they were trying to burn the evidence, but a crowbar can't melt. You would just leave that next to the body. That's pretty brazen.

[Christine]

Yeah. And. Yeah. And leave her feet bound and. I mean, there's no. Yeah. No.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Hannah and Ethan did not appear to be on the property. The grandparents reported both children missing, which triggered an Amber Alert. And fun fact. This was the first Amber Alert in California to be issued over cell phone number networks to individual cell phones. So the alert urged. And you know that sound like that alarm, like the first one of those Must have been really scary if you.

[Em]

Didn'T know what I'm like, what the is going on?

[Christine]

My phone is exploding. Yeah.

[Em]

But you know what got everyone's attention?

[Christine]

You got it. Yep. It got. It worked. It did its job. Right. So the alert urged the public to look out for a blue Nissan. The blue Nissan, of course, belonging to Jim DiMaggio, formerly beloved family friend, now a key suspect in this murder and potential kidnapping and arson person, you know, all of these things. All of a sudden, when the cabin had finally finished burning, firefighters discovered a small child's body in the rubble.

[Em]

It was Ethan.

[Christine]

It was Ethan. The remains were. Were too badly burned to be identified at first, but DNA confirmation allowed them to determine that, yes, it was Ethan, but that meant Hannah was somewhere and they did not know where because she was not on the property. The case became a national manhunt, especially knowing that Hannah could be, you know, the clock is ticking. Right. So this. This national manhunt was executed in cooperation by local and state police, US Marshals, and the FBI. Surveillance footage captured an image of Hannah and Jim on the road together around midnight. And the route they were driving made investigators suspect that they were going north, so they were able to, like, at least track that. And the Amber alert was then issued for multiple states, including Oregon and Washington, in case they, you know, made it past spread out. Jim had rigged timed incendiary devices to start the fire at his house.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Basically, that meant he had left hours before the fire even started.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Giving him, like, that heads up or that. What do you call it? That head start.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

Head start.

[Em]

Heads up worked too. I mean, I get.

[Christine]

Well, yeah, yeah. Giving them a head starts. Better. Yeah. So basically giving them several hours of a head start, meaning they could be anywhere, 40 minutes away. Residents of Lakeside, which was the Anderson's hometown, held candle night vigils. They spoke to the media about Hannah. They were trying to, like, get the message out as best they could. And one of Hannah's friends actually addressed her on camera and said, hannah, if you have a moment alone and the chance to run, take it.

[Em]

Oh, God. Oh, my God. And so people. No one's thinking, like, no one's thinking, what if we just missed her in the rubble? Like, people know that she's with him.

[Christine]

She's not. She was not there. Yeah, okay. They know that she. She's gone.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

So as a community hope for Hannah's safe return, it also had to mourn Tina and Ithan. Like I said, they had. They had later confirmed it was him via DNA. And friends were totally blindsided by this. Of course, they described Tina as loving, involved, a nurturing parent. They said everything she did, she did for her children. And despite their recent separation, even her ex, Brett, said she was a great mother and a great wife. So, like, this is not something where people are pointing to her as being the problem here. Thank God. She was much admired, as was Ethan, who was remembered as just a really kind child. They were a very, very loving family, and people had always thought Jim was part of that. And so this was especially shocking to people who knew them. Brett said so his friend, the father of Hannah and Ethan, Brett, said that in retrospect, he might have seen red flags, that Jim showed inappropriate interest in his daughter. For example, he sometimes took Hannah on day trips to places like Malibu and Hollywood. But Brett and Tina truly considered Jim an uncle who just liked having a relationship with the kids and, like, had fun taking them places. He'd been by Hannah's side since she was born. And, like, as the parents, they never fe. They heard him say was inappropriate or uncomfortable.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Jim even briefly lived with Hannah's grandmother while he saved up for a house. And one of Hannah's grandparents said, Jim would have done anything for their family and they would have done anything for him. So there was just.

[Em]

I mean, he was fully enmeshed in the family.

[Christine]

Fully.

[Em]

Also wild that friends were like, we didn't hear him say anything inappropriate because all my uncles do or say, like, you're not. Not that I keep. My uncles have never done anything.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

But I feel like it's almost weirder that he. It feels to me like he was on, like, his best. Best behavior in front of people.

[Christine]

I had that same vibe of, like, well, yeah, and we'll get to it. Because I think you're onto something. Because I was having that same inkling of, like, well, it sounds almost like he's trying really hard to be that perfect person in.

[Em]

Yeah, because everyone has an uncle who says up things like, so for them.

[Christine]

To go, there's like a drunk uncle sketch on SNL of, like, just, like, all the shit that.

[Em]

It really feels like a red flag that he didn't ever.

[Christine]

There was. I'm always like, why is he taking the kids all day places? Like, why. Like, what fun is that? Like, I get it if it's.

[Em]

It's.

[Christine]

That's a fine line.

[Em]

Right?

[Christine]

Because it's like, of course it's fun to, like, take the kids out to a thing, but, I mean, maybe it's now, like, being a parent, I look at it a little differently, but is.

[Em]

He only taking out Hannah or He's taking both of them.

[Christine]

He would take Hannah out.

[Em]

Okay. It's weirder that it's just Hannah, but.

[Christine]

She was also much older. Not much, but, like, you know, eight years older. So it's like, you know, when she's a teenager, that's different.

[Em]

Maybe it's like, in hindsight, it just all makes sense.

[Christine]

But, like, that's kind of what. Yeah, that's kind of how I feel. And I. I want to be clear, too. Like, I'm not blaming any of these family members or anything who did not know. Like, that is not what I'm doing. I'm just, you know, it's one of those things where. Where you look back and like you said, hindsight is kind of 2020, but. God, you know, see something, say something, folks. It's just. It's just really sad. So even Jim's friend. So Jim Had a friend who was a social worker and a mental health counselor. And even he did not. He's a social worker. Even he did not see any red flags when the group camped together, like, they went camping. And Jim was, like, talking about the Andersons and the kids and how much he loved the family. And even this guy who is a social worker and a counselor was like, I literally never picked up on anything strange. So, like, he must be a sensational actor.

[Em]

He must be. I mean, even you just said, see something, say something. But he's not giving any. He's not anyone. Anything to see, so.

[Christine]

Exactly. And so that's kind of where I think you're exactly right. He knows what he's doing.

[Em]

I just watched a bird take a. On my. On my house lamp.

[Christine]

What do you mean, your house lamp?

[Em]

My. The. The. The light by your door. Oh, like the porch porch light. I just watched him. I just watched it happen.

[Christine]

This is fantastic.

[Em]

I'm sorry. That had nothing to do with.

[Christine]

I just so mad that you didn't turn the camera because, like, we would have liked to see that, too.

[Em]

I literally thought. I didn't want to interrupt you because you were saying something really fucked up, and I was like, I wish if we were in a different situation, I'd take a picture because I know you like looking at birds. And then I just watched him go all over the place.

[Christine]

I literally saw you looking at something, and I went, well, either there's someone coming to murder you, or there's a fun animal outside. And it was the fun animal, thank God. God.

[Em]

But I'm only saying it because it's so rare you ever see a bird poop. And, like, why would you do it on my property anyway?

[Christine]

Well, maybe you should think on that later.

[Em]

I'm sorry. That was like. Again, I was, like, trying to keep it together because we were in the middle of something.

[Christine]

You are very close to your porch right now, so that would have been a really unpleasant thing to witness. And I. I don't feel you need to apologize.

[Em]

Stop interrupting you now.

[Christine]

No, no, no. Please don't worry. So, like you said, yes, it's. It's. He's doing. See something, say something, but he is not giving really, any creepy signs that people can pick up on. And I think that kind of gives a lot of credence to the family. And again, I don't want to make it sound like they should have done something if they didn't know. So, anyway, moving on. So, again, no red flags that anyone could pick up on yet. Autopsy reports showed that Tina had been bound by the ankles and badly beat, beaten before she was killed. And Ethan likely died in the fire. Even the Anderson's dog had been shot to death and was left in the fire. So this is. And remember, like his whole thing is animals. So like he clearly also has like.

[Em]

Best friends, a social worker, you would think he was like a safe guy to be around.

[Christine]

Right? It's sort of like he's giving off. And that's the scary thing is like people think like, oh, if I were around that I would have noticed, I would have witnessed. It's like some people can be so, so, yeah, so chameleon like that, you just will never see it.

[Em]

You know, he masked it so well.

[Christine]

Masking. Yes, exactly. So the Andersons extended family were so taken aback, they could not reconcile this. Like they could not reconcile the gym they knew with what he had done. However, and this is where your point completely comes to fruition, Hannah's teenage friends knew something that the adults did.

[Em]

He was in fact creepy.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

I told you someone had to know he was a creepy.

[Christine]

Someone knew and it was all the teenagers. And that's why when I say see something, say something. I'm not accusing these kids. How would you know? You're a child. But please encourage your children to see something, say something to feel safe, to come to you. It's just so hard. I mean, I'm not. This is just another one of those lessons that's like a reminder. Not a lesson, but like a reminder of like how important it is. Because this is 2013, you know, that's like a little over a decade ago ago, not even that long ago. So Hannah's friends, when, when investigators talked to them, they knew some stuff the adults didn't. For example, 15 year old Marissa Chavez said that months earlier she was riding home from a gymnastics competition with Hannah and Jim. When Jim told Hannah, like in front of Marissa, that he had a crush on her and would like to date her if she was his age. Remember this man? Since the day she was born.

[Em]

Oh my God. And it's your best friend's kid.

[Christine]

Yeah. Your niece, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hannah and her friend planned to go to Jim's house after gymnastics to play video games, which was something they did all the time. So Hannah asked if she could invite her other friend who was a boy. And Jim said he didn't want Hannah, he didn't want to see Hannah with a boy because he had a crush on her. Like, forget it, like, get out of here. He described it as a family crush.

[Em]

What in the does that mean?

[Christine]

What the does that mean?

[Em]

Family crush is something only that's like.

[Christine]

Is that supposed to make it better? Like, that is not better. What are you talking about?

[Em]

Can you imagine if I was like, no, no, I just have a family crush on my cousin.

[Christine]

What are you talking like, what do you mean? That's nothing. That's nothing. It was a family crush, and he only wanted to protect her. I mean, it just makes me so sick to my stomach. Stomach. Hannah, thankfully, she is, like, not no dummy. She's, like, disturbed by this whole thing and is, like, this. I don't feel comfortable around this guy. And another friend said he told Hannah not to talk to Jim anymore. But Hannah is in this, like, situation that we see so often where she didn't want to damage. She knew how much her mom needed this guy to help around the house and to help raise the kids. And she was like, I don't want to rock the boat. Like, I don't want to.

[Em]

That happens so often, all the time. You find a vulnerable kid who hold something over their head, so that way, they. They don't say anything.

[Christine]

Threat is there, and it's like. It's so insidious. And, like, talk about grooming. You know, you spend 15 years with this family, making yourself a family member to do this, like, it's. It's gives me, like, seriously shivers. So she just didn't know what to do, right? She's stuck in the middle. She doesn't want to rock the boat. She. She felt like she didn't want to. I mean, this is her dad's best friend. And as a kid, you're like, that's important, you know, like, you don't realize. And so she didn't know what to do. She knew Jim was a huge support during the separation. She didn't want to endanger anybody, so she said nothing. News broke that Jim might have become infatuated with Hannah and gone to extreme lengths to isolate her from her family. So this stuff started to come out when the teenage friends were like, yeah, he was actually pretty creepy. One of Jim's former classmates. Now, to clarify, Jim, the. The. This guy, the. The father figure guy, quote, unquote, when he was in school, okay, he had a classmate named Danielle Freeman.

[Em]

Okay?

[Christine]

And I tell you that because Danielle Freeman, now an adult, spoke out after she heard about this whole situation.

[Em]

I know she had something to say.

[Christine]

She had something to say. She said she was absolutely terrified for Hannah because when she was in high school, classmate With Jim. Jim's father, Jim Senior, had actually dated her mother for a short time. Oh, so she was basically this guy, stepbrother, slash. Also his dad's, or, sorry, stepsister. Also his dad's, like sort of pseudo stepdaughter when they broke up. When her mom and Jim Senior broke up, Jim Senior told 16 year old Danielle that he was in love with her and asked her to run away with him. So this is like a generational additional pattern thing we have going on.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. Because I thought it was going to be about the high school or. But no, it's about his father. So this is clearly.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

She rejected him. And then one morning while her mother was out of town and Danielle was asleep at home with her boyfriend, Jim Senior, her former stepdad climbed through her bedroom window with a shotgun and handcuffs. He placed an apple over the barrel as a makeshift silencer and held Danielle and her boyfriend, teenagers, at gunpoint, for an hour. This is Jim's dad, like decades earlier.

[Em]

I'm fully silenced.

[Christine]

Is this not the wildest shit? Like, this is.

[Em]

This is so that also, I mean, obviously poor Danielle, that boyfriend who was just like, he's like, I hope we don't get caught because I know they're.

[Christine]

16 and he's like, her mom's out of town, so obviously the boyfriend's staying over. Like, you can totally see what's happening. And then a guy with a shotgun climbs through the window.

[Em]

Oh my God. Oh my God, you're right.

[Christine]

Like of all innocent, like of all teenage, kind of like sneaking around, like to have that happen.

[Em]

I wonder if like the boyfriend being there, like saved her life because at least there's two people versus, like, I mean, only brought handcuffs for one person.

[Christine]

That's a very, very good point. That's a very good point. It probably was for the best that he was there. So Danielle begged him to spare their lives, but he only said their deaths would be painless. That's what he kept telling them.

[Em]

Jesus Christ.

[Christine]

Danielle appealed to Jim Senior for mercy. Of course. She did the kind of survival thing saying, like, if you really love me, you know you won't hurt me. And trying to play into that. That affection that he had expressed for her. She kept asking repeatedly to use the bathroom and he finally let her her go. Instead, she ran out the door to her neighbors for help, but also was totally terrified by this because Jim Senior said, if you try to run instead of go to the bathroom, I will shoot your boyfriend and your brother, who's also in the house.

[Em]

Oh, My God.

[Christine]

But instead of shooting them, she made the right call. Because when he realized she had run for help, he ran too, without harming anyone. He was later arrested, but he made. He made bail and returned home pending trial. Now, Danielle goes back to school, and her classmate Jim Jr. Approaches her one day.

[Em]

Oh, my God. Okay.

[Christine]

And he tells her his father's out of jail and that his father wants to meet Danielle after school.

[Em]

No, no. And like, why?

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

I mean, he. Obviously, if he's being raised by that guy, he's got his own stuff to figure out. But, like, I think she'd say yes.

[Christine]

Well, I almost wonder if she's. If he's like, warning her.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

I don't know, though. It. It's not clear. But I. I do wonder the context because it says Jim Jr. Approached Danielle at school and told her his father's out of jail and planned to meet her after school. And she was like, okay, got it. I'm going into hiding.

[Em]

I see.

[Christine]

So I don't know what his intention was, especially with the. What we know now about him.

[Em]

I don't know. Now it sounds like he was. He didn't see anything wrong with something like that.

[Christine]

Totally. Or maybe. Maybe he did and. And then later he reverted to that. Who knows? But either way, she. I'm glad he told her, I guess, because she decided to go into hiding. She transferred school several days later. I mean, it's very traumatizing. Jim Senior was. I mean, we were just discussing what his own problems might be. Jim Jr. Seniors. Jim Senior was emotionally, physically abusive to his children. And though Jim's family believed he had. That Jim, little Jim had proudly broken this cycle of violence. Right. Like, everyone thought, wow, like, he's really got out. Yeah. Despite his upbringing, he's really like, become this great family man. Danielle now, looking back, believed Hannah, who's missing, was in as much danger as Danielle had once been and was like, I know. At the hands of Jim's father. So it's like she's exposed, experienced this. Sorry, I just had this weird flash of your story of like the killing the guard and then killing the guard in the kitchen and then like repeating years later.

[Em]

It's just so weird. Like a synchronicity.

[Christine]

Yeah. Like almost like a repeat crime generation. Generation is kind of strange.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

But so, yeah, that's basically. And I think you're probably right that the intention probably was to take just Danielle. Just Danielle. And the boyfriend just happened to be there because he must have known that the mom was out of town. He probably didn't account for the boyfriend staying the night. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God.

[Em]

You are right that it is weird that it's like two generations, both took a. A girl and a guy he didn't really want to actually have to deal with and then just kind of, like, had to think about, do I want to get rid of this guy?

[Christine]

Like, killing the extra. The collateral damage. The collateral, people. Yeah. Now, this is when things get a little. Well, a lot icky also. So. What? What? First of all, I'd like to point out that Danielle, even though she said, you know, Hannah's in. In danger, she said, I think this girl's a strong girl, and if she just keeps her wits and goes with the program, she can make it out. So she wanted to, like, at least put the hope out there that, like, Hannah could get through this. You know, Danielle escaped, and so she's hoping Hannah can as well. So the media is, of course, devouring this story, and with that comes rumors. And, of course, course, when they find letters from Hannah to Jim, innocent letters about advice and, like, family disagreements and having an argument with her mom, they didn't make the contents of the letters public, but people heard that the two had exchanged a lot of letters and started saying, oh, she's in on it, and she's in a relationship with him. Impossible, folks. She's a child. Impossible. On the day Jim picked up Hannah from cheer camp, phone records showed that Jim and Hannah spoke over the phone 13 times. And so people were like, they were plotting this out. This had to be some sort of plan. And.

[Em]

Oh, okay. Yeah.

[Christine]

So people started speculating that Hannah was in a relationship, quote unquote, with Jim, that she knew the plot ahead of time, that she willingly participated in killing her family. Detectives, of course, were like, no, that is not where we're taking this case at all. But, you know, it's the Internet. It's 2013. People are gonna talk. All evidence to investigators indicated that Hannah was being held against her will and was in imminent peril. And they said, by the way, everybody, we want to be clear that she is a victim in every sense of the word. And I'd like to clarify that that is still the case. So three days after Hannah's abduction, two couples were enjoying a summer camping tradition. Here's another. See something, say something. Again, not to, like, put too much onus of blame on anyone else, but just to say, here's another good example of what can. What we can brush aside.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

Just feel. Feel like, oh, it's not my problem. You Know, whatever. Two couples were enjoying a summer camping tradition where they would go fishing in the Frank Church river of no Return Wilderness.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Nothing could go wrong. The wilderness. Didn't we talk about this?

[Em]

Yes.

[Christine]

Okay. I thought so, but then I was.

[Em]

Like, why is so much going on at this poorly named river?

[Christine]

Probably it's like chicken or the egg. Is it called that because. Because it's.

[Em]

Yeah, it's like, is it because there's a full moon or are you doing it because there's a full moon?

[Christine]

Because it's called. Right, right, right.

[Em]

It's like, are you doing it at this. This river that we're never going to forget, or are you doing it at a river that will never forget?

[Christine]

Wow. No, you're totally right. I. I had thought that, but I was like, maybe the one we talked about was like the never ending river. And I'm like, no, you're right. That is it. The river of no Return. That was definitely it.

[Em]

Yes, 100%.

[Christine]

Yeah. So that's. That's kind of. We're back in that. In that neck of the woods, so to speak. Um, actually quite literally. And so they went fit. This is what they would do, these two couples. They would go on this double day camping trip every year, and they would go to this part of the woods and go fishing. It's this wilderness area. And this part, especially where they were. Where they were navigating and where they would go camping, apparently required considerable outdoor skills. So you needed to really prepare. It's not just like you drive up and you can't. You set up a tent. Like, like, they had horses that had to take them to this point to, like, navigate the terrain. So the. The couples are Mark John, his wife Krista, and their friends Mike and Mary Young. And they did have those skills and experience, and they had horses that could handle it. So on Tuesday morning, they set off from their campsite on horseback to go fishing at Morehead Lake. And the route they took was a little bit treacherous. There were these, like, really steep slopes, these deep gorges. Gorges. And along the way, they spotted two hikers. But these hikers seem completely out of place. Okay, there's a man and a much younger woman, and they are not dressed for a hiking trip. They just have thin running shoes and they just have a day pack and no water. And the girl's just wearing sweatpants.

[Em]

Yeah, something's going on there.

[Christine]

And they're looking at them going, what in the world are these two doing here? Like, where are. Where. Where's her in the middle of nowhere, you know, and where's all your.

[Em]

You don't just stumble over here.

[Christine]

No, certainly not. And they described the girl as having a pure look of fear on her face. So the couples rode another hour to the lake. But as they're riding their horses, they're thinking something wasn't right. Like, we just have a bad feeling about this. On the way back to camp, they passed the pair again, but this time they were hauling heavy backpacks and the man was carrying an old gray cat.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

One of the men on horseback was completely floored and said, why on earth would you bring a cat to the wilderness? And he said, a cat? This is the most dad thing I've ever heard. A cat out here is nothing but good bait for wolves and mountain lions. What are you doing bringing a cat out here?

[Em]

Something an uncle would say. Something weird.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, very true and very dad like. And the girl he noticed, was just sitting on the lakeshore with her feet in the water, like, completely disturbing, detached. One of the writers made a joke like, well, you're not going to catch any fish with your feet in the water like that. And she just completely didn't respond. Like, was completely disengaged. So as they rode away, they heard her turn and say, looks like we're all in trouble now. So Krista, one of the women on this trip, wanted to go back and ask the girl if she's in trouble and if she needs help. Yeah, correct answer.

[Em]

Correct answer.

[Christine]

But her husband insisted it was none of their business. Incorrect answer.

[Em]

Divorce. Please don't.

[Christine]

He thought. He thought maybe this was a father, daughter pair who wasn't getting along. He thought also maybe they. The girl was older than they thought and they were just a couple in an argument. I can't.

[Em]

Why wouldn't you go ask then?

[Christine]

Trust your gut, man.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Still, the encounter hung over their heads for the rest of the camp out. And they just couldn't shake this feeling like something was wrong. Regardless of this relationship between them, whether they were a married couple or father, daughter or whatever, it was so out of place. And. And they were like, they could get hurt. Like they're not prepared for this either way. And something was wrong. So fast forward to Thursday. It's been five days since Hannah's abduction. Five days. The Youngs and the Johns pack up camp. They go home. And that evening, Krista turns on the TV and starts screaming for Mark. Because there on the TV is an Amber Alert, and there on the TV is Hannah, the same girl they had seen in the Wilderness just a few days days earlier.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Now you better believe. I hope that guy for the rest of his life. Yeah, I hope I get the, like, politeness right. Like, I know how hard it can be to say, do something. It's just we have to keep reminding ourselves how important that is.

[Em]

Yeah. I have recently had to do a politeness thing and then got yelled at for not being polite. And I was like, well, I don't.

[Christine]

Care what happened or do you know?

[Em]

Oh, there was. I was. It was in Portland or Seattle when we had our show, and there was a. A girl that looked really fucked up, and a guy was, like. It looked like carrying her or, like, dragging her across. Like, I was. I was parked at a light, and I saw them crossing the street. And it. At first I was like, maybe she's just really drunk and, like, her friend's trying to drag her to, like, trying to, like, help her across the street. But it also looked like he was, like, carrying her, and she was too up to, like, know what was even going on. And so I was like, what the hell? So I. The light turned green, so luckily they were walking in the direction I was starting to drive. So I started to just kind of just slowly follow them. But then eventually, I saw her running.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

And so I rolled down the window and I went, do you know him? Like, get in the car. And then the guy went, she knows me. And I went, I want to hear.

[Christine]

It from her asking you.

[Em]

Yeah. And I was like, do you know him? And then she went, yeah, that's my husband. And I went, okay. And then she was like, I was just. I was just showing him how my friend and I run, Like. But she. Like, she meant it and seemed fine.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

But then he was like, why would you say that? Why would you. And I was like, I didn't. It looked really shady. Like, it looked like, yeah, no, you.

[Christine]

Did the right thing. And that's why it's called Blade is because people are gonna be weird about it.

[Em]

He was really weird about it, which, like, I get. Like, you don't want to be, of course, seen that way.

[Christine]

And by the way, if it's nothing, yeah, they're probably gonna to be like, dude, you. That's my.

[Em]

But also, if you're her husband, how you should be thinking, thank God someone is, like, looking out for my wife. There's a creepy guy around, I guess.

[Christine]

But, like, if you're in the moment, you're like, somebody comes up and, like, you're like, whoa, What? No, that's not what's happening. Like, but that is the risk you take of, like, politeness, right? Like, not everyone's going to be like, wow, that was so thoughtful of you. You know, like, and so that's why it's so scary. Like, for all they know, they could go back there and say, hey, are you. Are you, like, do you know each other? Are you related? And, like, they could be like, what the actual. Like, yeah, we're siblings and we're mourning our dad's death. Like, who knows? You know, it could be, like, any number of things, but, like, that's that horrible risk, but good for you. And that's hard. That's hard to do, man.

[Em]

Oh, thank you.

[Christine]

Okay, so anyway, they're. They're. They're at home, they see the tv, they go, holy, we cannot believe it. That's the girl we saw. So Krista called the other couple, Mike and Mary, who turned on the news and thought they were. They were like, yeah, that. That's definitely her. So they read up on Hannah's AMBER alert, and they. By the time they kind of got to the bottom of it, they all agreed this was undeniably the girl they had seen. So they call the state police. An enormous team of investigators and hostage rescue specialists set up operations in Cascade, Idaho. And this is 77 miles north of Boise. It's about a thousand people. It's pretty small town. Town search teams took to the Frank Church river of no Return Wilderness on foot and horseback. It's a humongous, enormous area. And so it's a really hard, slow, and grueling process to search. But on a road near one of the trailheads, Jim's Nissan, that blue Nissan was discovered hidden under a pile of brush and tree branches. So he tried to cover that up. Small planes and helicopters were deployed on aerial searches. And one team noticed a blue tent near More Lake. When they looked a little closer, they saw a girl and a man. And when they looked even a little bit closer, they saw that in the man's arms was a gray cat.

[Em]

Fat little Oliver is getting everyone into trouble.

[Christine]

Oliver is getting attention and getting the police involved. And I love that you could say.

[Em]

It was Oliver and company and I will. You could.

[Christine]

I could, and I will.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

They knew this must be Oliver and Jim and Hannah. And they were like, thank God she's alive. So a helicopter carrying a hostage rescue team had to land miles away so that they would be, like, subtle enough to not tip him off. Right?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And it was also. Yep. And it was also the only suitable terrain to land a helicopter. Like, this guy didn't go camping in, like, a big airfield, right? So they. They have to go miles away way and then hike to the location. And I can't.

[Em]

I can't imagine hiking that and, like, trying, like, almost doing a marathon. Because you want to go as fast as you can to get there as soon as possible.

[Christine]

You want to get as fast as you can, and you want to be, like, as stealth as possible. Right? So you're like. So they. They get there. It takes over two hours to get there. And then they just wait. They watch Jim and Hannah in silence for an opportunity to move in. Because they don't want him grabbing her, you know, and holding her hostage. They don't want to put her in danger at all. According to the FBI, they. So they finally were able to swoop in. And when the team did swoop in to retrieve Hannah, Jim shot his gun once and then lowered it to shoot again, and the team opened fire. He was shot multiple times, was immediately killed.

[Em]

Oh, wow.

[Christine]

Hannah and Oliver both survived.

[Em]

I'm glad you. I'm glad you said.

[Christine]

Had to specify that both were transported in helicopter. Imagine the poor cat is like, this is the most traumatic of my life. Like, this cat doesn't even know. I mean, Hannah, obviously, of course, but.

[Em]

They'Re both looking at each other.

[Christine]

They're like, did we both just experience this?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So Hannah, thankfully, was transported to a hospital. And this is just the heartbreaking part where she has to learn that her mother, her brother, and her dog are all.

[Em]

She didn't. She didn't know.

[Christine]

She didn't know because apparently.

[Em]

Tell her.

[Christine]

He told her. I'll get to it. Because I'll tell you, like, in. In detail, and I don't know where in my notes it is, but he does tell her a specific story. Story that.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

That basically, he told her that they were safe. Yeah. She was fortunately reunited with her father and her grandmother. And she was really close with her grandmother. But, of course, so overwhelmed by her ordeal, she turned to the Internet to process her grief and trauma. And before this whole thing, she had been an active user of the Internet. And so that's. She just went back to being online. She posted on a public forum and did sort of an. Ask me any. Anything about what she'd been through. And Hannah wrote that she was not sorry Jim was killed, and she believed he deserved his fate. But being online, of course, drew public scrutiny and criticism from people who were, like, having a Q A is inappropriate. And it's like, oh, you know, it's.

[Em]

Inappropriate being abducted after everyone I know is dead.

[Christine]

Literally a man murdering my dog and my family, and then saying what I'm doing is inappropriate. It makes me so enraged, I can't even think straight. But Hannah defended herself in inter interviews, and she said that she only decided to do the Q A after she got online and saw people writing rumors about her. And it's like, let her set the record straight. And she was like, let me just.

[Em]

Tell you what happened. So I don't see these rumors about my trauma.

[Christine]

Exactly. So she wrote on one Facebook page, I can say and do what I want, and I feel bad that it bothers you so much. Like, she's just like, oh, girl. Yeah, yeah. Hannah always had connected to her friends and family through social media anyway, so this was, like, a place where she could probably process and describe what she experienced, you know, in a public forum and feel empowered that, like, she can talk about her trauma from her perspective. She also took opportunities to contest rumors about her relationship with Jim. She explained the letters she wrote to him were just, like, kid letters that she wrote to an uncle talking about, like, how frustrated she was that her mom didn't let her stay at past bedtime or what have you. Like, there was nothing inappropriate in the letters.

[Em]

Maybe to him it was a love letter, but, like, it was.

[Christine]

Right? No, you. Yeah, but there was nothing in it that, like, indicated, you know, to police there was anything else going on between. At least on her part, you know, and these. Remember the alleged 13 phone calls? Well, it turns out that they were actually texts, and Jim didn't have the address for where he was supposed to pick her up. And there was construction in front of the school, so they were just texting. It's 2013. They were texting like, oh, drive to the side of the building. Or, you know, oh, it's at this building or this church gymnasium. Like, that's why they texted 13 times. They weren't having, like, lovers trysts over the phone. And, like, the fact that people said that and that she was imp. Complicit in killing her own mother and brother, it's just like, that's so sick. Get a. Like, take a step back. Take 10 steps back. Okay. So in October, two months after her abduction and rescue, Hannah went on the Today show to describe her experience. She said that when Jim picked her up from cheer camp, nothing seemed out of the ordinary at first. It wasn't until they got to his house, and she didn't See her mom's car in the driveway, that she began to feel a little nervous inside. Jim told her that Tina was in the garage and that Ethan was upstairs. She heard her brother yelling for her and she shouted her his name. But there was nothing she could do because Jim suddenly handcuffed her and told her he was going to take her to Idaho where she would hike with him to help him set up his new home in the wilderness together.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

It's like his father asked Danielle to run away with him and, well, he.

[Em]

Saw that didn't work, so he had to come up with another story.

[Christine]

But it's the same. Yeah, I mean, right, but now he's doing the same thing. Run away with me, but I'm forcing it. Right.

[Em]

History repeats itself.

[Christine]

History repeats. And even the handcuffs being the same tool, like, it's just so strange to me. He said that he would live there from then on and that once she helped him set up their home together, that, like, she could just go home to her family. And she said something about Jim had like, changed. He seemed like, on edge, overly excited, almost like manic in a way. I think he forced Hannah to play Russian roulette until she cried.

[Em]

Oh, so this isn't even like a. It start. It was for. It was one delusion originally of like, oh, we could be together, but now it's like, I could hurt. It sounded up until now like, yeah, he. He was like, something's up that he likes her, but like, he wasn't gonna hurt her because he liked her so much. And now it's like, oh, you'll also hurt her.

[Christine]

I don't know. I feel like anytime you tell a 13 year old girl you want to be her boyfriend or whatever, like, I.

[Em]

Don'T know, I. I was thinking. I mean, he was obviously capable of violence before that because of everything he did to everyone else, but I thought surely he wants to just abduct her and hold her hostage. It didn't.

[Christine]

I mean, he did the. Yeah, I think, part. Well, I think he just wanted to do like, Russian roulette to be like, I can control you. You know, it's like a control thing. Then he made her take sedative medication. She doesn't know what it was, but they think it was likely an Ambien. And she awoke hours later with no idea where she was and, of course, asking about her family. And Jim told Hannah that her mom and brother were tied up in his garage. But don't worry, there's a sign on the garage to alert firefighters of Their location says they could be rescued.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

When she finished helping Jim move into the wilderness, she believed she would go home and reunite with them, because that's what he kept telling her. So for days. I don't know that she actually believed that, but that is what he kept telling her. I'm sure she wanted to believe that. For days on the trail through the mountains, Hannah endured thunderstorms, boiling daytime heat, frigid nighttime cold, extremely painful hiking. Because she had really bad knee issues already to begin with, Jim carried a gun and slept with it at his side. Anna considered taking it while he slept, but she didn't know how to use it and was. Was like afraid that it would get worse if he caught her, you know? So when she saw those horseback riders, Jim told Hannah he would kill all four of those horseback riders if she tried to signal for help. So she stayed quiet. She was like, I don't want their blood on my hands.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Eventually, Jim realized that he had gotten them hopelessly lost in the wilderness. And with no resources for long term survival, Jim became desperate for rescue. And as he, as the helicopters and planes were flying overhead, he tried to actually build a fire to signal for help. When he failed to start a fire, Hannah told him that once she read that three gunshots in the air signified an sos, Hannah did not even realize at that time, her rescue team was literally waiting near nearby, waiting to advance on the scene.

[Em]

Wow. Okay.

[Christine]

So Hannah said that Jim followed her SOS tip and fired twice into the air. And before he could fire his final shot, the FBI shot him.

[Em]

Gotcha. Okay.

[Christine]

She didn't know he died, that he had died until she arrived at the hospital. In the weeks following Hannah's dramatic rescue, Jim's family and the Andersons were shocked to learn that Jim had named Hannah's grandmother the beneficiary to his life insurance policy, which was over a hundred thousand thousand dollars. Jim's sister Laura spoke to the media about her doubts surrounding the case. She told interviewers she always thought Hannah was trouble. Lunatic. Are you serious?

[Em]

So it just runs in the family?

[Christine]

Yeah, that's why I gotta leave. That nature plus nurture, who knows, you know? Clearly they didn't grow up in a healthy place either. So no hair. Hannah was trouble is what she said. And that she told Jim to avoid Hannah for his own safety.

[Em]

Again, I literally. What does that mean?

[Christine]

I can't even begin to know. She said she believed there were unanswered questions about the case that could exonerate her brother and that she believed Jim was trying to protect Hannah from some trouble Hannah had gotten herself into. Okay. In my. Yeah, okay. By killing her brother and mom.

[Em]

Yeah, I got nothing on that.

[Christine]

Just in my heart of hearts, as the sister, I think that Hannah. I mean, there's one thing to be like to hope your sibling is not, but this is next level. In my heart of hearts, I think that Hannah perhaps got herself into a situation that she couldn't get herself out of. And I do believe that my brother gave his life to protect her.

[Em]

I just hope that karma.

[Christine]

Beg your pardon, my friend.

[Em]

That'S evil.

[Christine]

She even said, by the way, that it's evil that there were rumors that Jim might be Hannah and Ethan's father, which would explain why he cared so much about them and why he left them so much money. She's probably also salty about the whole money life insurance going to the grandma. Perhaps it would also prove he was trying to help Hannah out of paternal obligation. Well, guess what? There was, like I said, never any evidence that Tina and Jim had a relationship. It was completely platonic. Oh, and by the way, Tina was already six months pregnant with Hannah when she and Brett met Jim. Remember how I said he knew her since the day she was born? That was because they met Jim when they were pregnant with Hannah. So, like, that's not even possible. And Brett's DNA was used to identify Ethan's body after the fire, so that means he was the paternal match.

[Em]

So at some point, you just gotta. You just gotta go shrug it off and be able.

[Christine]

Delusion.

[Em]

Yeah. That is not a healthy person.

[Christine]

Right. Like. Like there's no way to convince them at this point. If they're. If they're this convinced, Jim's family, eventually, because they just can't stop themselves, filed a wrongful death lawsuit seeking $20 million in damages. They believe that. And I will give them. I mean, maybe there is something to this part that they believe the hostage team had opportunity to apprehend Jim without killing him him. And that they acted in haste because they had already decided he was guilty of a crime. Something that should have been determined in a trial. But also, this man was clearly a severe danger, was a murderer on the loose, was endangering a child, and was shooting a gun into the air while rescue teams tried to rescue her. So I would, as someone who has. Hey, guess what? A serious problem with police shooting people, it's not my favorite. I. I don't know that this has legs, honestly. Not $20 million worth of legs, certainly, in my opinion, in my humble Opinion, anyway, so this lawsuit was dismissed. But it. The dismissal was then later reversed. And I there, Saoirse said they can't find any information more recent than 2019. I also couldn't find any. So this could still be active. Who knows, you know, the court moves slowly. Regardless of the circumstances of Jim's death, all evidence supports that Hannah was indeed an innocent survivor of Jim's unimaginable imaginable crime spree. And in the years since her abduction and rescue, Hannah has been very vocal about her gratitude and support for the Amber Alert system, which played the key role in her discovery and rescue. And the wildest part, that being the first one sent to cell phones in. In California is pretty wild.

[Em]

And a success.

[Christine]

And as a success. Yeah, exactly. In 2023, she responded by email to CBS News after they inquired about her life. She said the following and this is what all end on. I am currently two months away from getting my degree and taking my board exam to become an MRI technologist, as well as working full time for a hospital at home while I spend some. While I spend time with my son. I have worked hard to be where I am today. And although what happened was traumatic and devastating, I have a family of my own now and an amazing life ahead of me with my guardian angels watching above. Ethan's birthday was Sunday. He would have been 19 years old. And I try to imagine what he'd look like and what he'd be doing in life if he was still here, here today. I miss them every day. And one day my son will know what an amazing grandma and uncle he has up in heaven. And it's like just the fact that that was the uncle of her child now she lost him at such a young age. That's the story of Hannah Anderson. And I'm sorry, I know that was a long one. That's kind of why I was talking so fast. But it just was a lot to cover, especially with the Danielle bit in the middle. I couldn't cut that out. You know, it's like. Like that. That pattern is just so scary to see, like, how identical that.

[Em]

Yeah, that's.

[Christine]

It's a tough one.

[Em]

Oh, my gosh. Well, good job telling it, Christine.

[Christine]

Thank you. And thanks, Sa, for the help with the notes. And thank you, everybody, for sticking through another long one here. We're about to go do a yappy hour. I don't know if we have anything planned, do we?

[Em]

M. I got nothing. I just can't stop thinking about the bird poop I have to clean off.

[Christine]

No, Maybe we'll watch M do a live like ASMR cleaning of their porch light.

[Em]

It'll just be me. You don't need the asmr. It's me going.

[Christine]

Yeah, it'll be, it'll be just like M's disgust reverberating through our ears. Maybe I'll put on my like little AI thing. Not AI thing. What's it called? VR.

[Em]

VR.

[Christine]

I'll just.

[Em]

Oh, we can all just watch. That's everyone's favorite thing is to watch.

[Christine]

Someone else play a video game. Yeah. Anyway, well, thanks everybody. If you want to check out more, you can go to and that's my drink dot com. You can follow us on socials, ATWD podcast. You can come see us live. And that's why I drink.com live. And if you want to join the yappy hour, you can go to patreon.com and that's why we drink.

[Em]

And that's why we drink.