E437 A Crisis Mode Twisted Tea and a Clumsy Guardian Angel

Summary

Podcast Summary: "And That's Why We Drink"
Episode E437: "A Crisis Mode Twisted Tea and a Clumsy Guardian Angel"
Release Date: June 22, 2025

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Introduction to Haunting Tales and True Crime

In this gripping episode, hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz delve deep into the eerie history of the Ballaroy Mansion and transition seamlessly into the chilling details of the infamous Delphi murders. Balancing discussions on the paranormal with unsettling true crime narratives, the episode offers listeners a captivating blend of suspense and intrigue.

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The Ballaroy Mansion: A Legacy of Hauntings

Christine opens the segment by recounting the storied history of the Ballaroy Mansion in Philadelphia's Chestnut Hill neighborhood.

• Historical Background:
  Built in 1911 by a carpenter who notoriously killed his wife in one of its 30 rooms, the mansion changed hands in 1926 to the Easby family, descendants of Civil War General George Meade. The Easbys enriched the mansion with antiques, including a cannonball from Gettysburg and silverware used during the Declaration of Independence signing.

• Early Hauntings:
  Christine describes the mansion’s first significant paranormal event in 1992, marked by a major robbery that saw over $200,000 in valuables stolen, including the aforementioned cannonball. Em adds humorously, “They probably could only lug that one thing up. It was so heavy” ([05:21]).

• Ghostly Presences:
  The hosts detail numerous ghost sightings and unexplained phenomena within the mansion:

  • Steven:
    After witnessing his reflection replace with a skeleton's at the fountain, Steven mysteriously fell ill and passed away at six years old. His spirit has been seen roaming the property since.

  • Amelia/Amanda:
    The most persistent ghost, Amanda, is tied to the ominous Death Chair in the Blue Room. Described as a colorful mist or ectoplasm, Amanda is said to lure unsuspecting individuals to sit in the cursed chair, resulting in untimely deaths. Em remarks, “It's a somatic memory for me” ([05:21]).

  • Other Spirits:
    An older woman with a cane, a monk, and Thomas Jefferson’s spirit haunt various parts of the mansion, contributing to the eerie atmosphere. Notably, Thomas Jefferson is only seen by the dining room clock ([33:05]).

• Notable Incidents:

  • Cane-Wielding Woman:
    An ethereal woman with a cane tangles with the environment, reminiscent of scenes from "Haunting of Hill House."

  • Phantom Vintage Cars:
    Ghostly vintage and horse-drawn carriages are occasionally seen traversing the driveway, adding to the mansion’s spectral allure.

• Paranormal Investigations:
  George Easby, the mansion’s current owner, has openly acknowledged the hauntings and even consulted psychics like Judith to understand and manage the spirits. Judith’s insights suggest Amanda may not be malevolent but rather a misguided guardian angel, leading to comedic exchanges about “a clumsy guardian angel” ([44:43]).

Notable Quote:
Christine shares a poignant moment, “[31:55] Em: That sounds like something out of a spirit box.”

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The Delphi Murders: A Devastating True Crime Case

Transitioning from ghostly tales, Christine and Em shift focus to the harrowing Delphi murders, providing a detailed account of the case that shook a small Indiana community.

• Victims:
  Abigail Williams (13) and Liberty “Libby” German (14), best friends and 8th graders at Delphi Community Middle School, went missing on February 13, 2017, after a planned hike near the Monon High Bridge.

• The Day of the Disappearance:

  • Pre-Hike Preparations:
    The girls had a sleepover the night before and planned their hike for a long weekend with no school. Libby's older sister, Kelsey, dropped them off at the trailhead, entrusting their father, Derek, to pick them up later.

  • Hike and Missing:
    As dawn broke, Abby and Libby set out for their hike, capturing moments on Snapchat. By midday, Derek noticed they hadn't returned and began searching, leading to growing anxiety as hours passed without sightings ([65:08]).

• Search and Initial Theories:

  • Community Effort:
    The tight-knit town mobilized volunteers, including local residents like Pat Brown, to scour the treacherous Monon High Bridge and surrounding woods. Despite the extensive search, no signs of the girls were found immediately.

  • First Signs of Trouble:
    On the first night, searches yielded only a tie-dye shirt and a black Nike shoe in Deer Creek, confirming their worst fears of foul play. A blurry surveillance photo and a short audio clip from Libby's phone labeled the suspect as "Bridge Guy" emerged, intensifying public fear ([85:22]).

• Investigation Challenges:

  • Unreliable Leads:
    The initial suspect, Ron Logan, a 77-year-old man with a violent history, provided no concrete evidence linking him to the murders. Despite receiving numerous tips, investigators struggled to identify the true perpetrator due to vague descriptions and the suspect's ordinary appearance.

  • Media and Public Intrusion:
    The case attracted immense media attention and online sleuths, leading to the unfortunate sharing of a photo revealing Libby’s body at a public viewing—a traumatic event that diverted focus from seeking the true killer ([91:02]).

• Developments and Continued Mystique:

  • New Evidence Attempts:
    In April 2019, additional footage from Libby's phone surfaced, offering a second sketch of Bridge Guy. Though initially disparate from the first sketch, layering the images suggested similarities, leading to confusion and frustration among investigators and families alike.

  • Ongoing Uncertainty:
    The Delphi murders remain unresolved, with the hosts hinting at further developments and deeper insights to be explored in a subsequent episode ([93:44]).

Notable Quote:
Em reflects on the emotional toll, saying, “She has a split second moment of, oh, thank God. But then she just heard silence on the other end of the line. And she knew. News quickly spread.”

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Conclusion and Upcoming Segments

As the episode draws to a close, Christine and Em tease an upcoming two-part continuation of the Delphi murders, promising listeners more in-depth analysis and revelations. They also touch upon personal anecdotes and promote their newly launched ParaPods Network, showcasing their commitment to expanding their podcasting endeavors.

Notable Quote:
Em humorously acknowledges the complexity of the storytelling, “[90:15] Christine: Good story, Christine. Good delivery. Good everything on your end. Horrible truth.”

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Engaging Personal Insights and Community Support

Throughout the episode, hosts interweave personal experiences and offer heartfelt shout-outs to therapists and listeners grappling with the world's chaos. They emphasize the importance of community support systems, especially concerning pet care during turbulent times ([07:06]).

Notable Quote:
Christine passionately implores, “If you know anyone who has any living dependence, please make a buddy system or get into a group chat and start having regular check-ins with everyone and know where everyone's backup key is to their place.”

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Final Thoughts

Episode E437 of "And That's Why We Drink" masterfully combines spine-chilling ghost stories with a profound true crime investigation, all while maintaining an engaging and relatable dialogue. Christine and Em's balanced approach ensures listeners are both entertained and emotionally invested, setting the stage for further exploration in upcoming episodes.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• [03:01] Em: "That's just excellent stuff."
• [04:44] Em: "Twisted tea is like a somatic memory for me."
• [17:22] Em: "You know what, I'm pissed off at me and just kept calling in the tip that I did it."
• [31:55] Em: "That sounds like something out of a spirit box."
• [41:07] Christine: "I've seen the ghosts. And don't be afraid."
• [44:43] Em: "She's just popping in."
• [65:08] Em: "I'm covering."
• [91:02] Em: "The case became the Delphi murders."

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Join the Conversation: For those intrigued by these spine-tingling tales and the ongoing quest for justice, make sure to tune into the next episode where Christine and Em continue uncovering the mysteries surrounding the Delphi murders.

Transcript

[Christine]

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[Em]

No, that's gonna lead me.

[Christine]

Holy Lord.

[Em]

Don't do that. Don't do that. I'm gonna start on Angel's Wings and I'm gonna traumatize a whole swath of people out there.

[Christine]

Oh, man. Hey, everyone. Remember last week when we said it's getting kind of bad out here. It's even worse. I don't know what you know about the. So if you don't, like, wow, literally they're threatening like, maybe nuclear war today. That's crazy.

[Em]

I literally, I'm like, flying out in a few days for our Florida. For the beach to Sandy Florida shows. And I like, was on Reddit this morning. It was like, ice officers take over CVG terminal. And I'm like, what?

[Christine]

Like, did you hear, like, a sheriff in Florida was like, telling people, like, if you protest, we're like, it wasn't even like, we're going to arrest you. They were saying, we will tell your family where to find the remains. Literally, like at a press conference was like, we will kill you and we'll let your family know where to find the remains.

[Em]

That's just good. That's just excellent stuff.

[Christine]

Not the crazy, like our.

[Em]

Our gay gasps. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

I know.

[Em]

It's like, why are we surprised? We're not surprised. It's just like every day feels like another version of hell that just like, gets quagmire.

[Christine]

Nebulous.

[Em]

Yes. It is like layer upon layer upon layer. And what? I laugh. It really is not a laugh of funny. It is a laugh of, like, hysteria because I'm like, what the is going on? You.

[Christine]

We're laughing at. We're laughing at a funeral. It's like you can't stop it.

[Em]

It's like you just feel like you're in the Twilight zone. Yeah, I was literally sign. I made a little sign. It says, immigrants make cincy. Great. Because I had a lot of other ones and my family said they were too inflammatory, so I stayed with this one. I know they were a little much. I was like, you know what? Maybe I'll just like, keep it tone down on just, you know, for this time.

[Christine]

I will tell you, I tried to. I'm making a new friend I found on Bumble bff.

[Em]

Don't roll your eyes. We're excited.

[Christine]

Well, no, no, here's. No, wait, here's the eye rolling part is that we were trying to plan when to hang out. And she was like, well, I can only hang out till a certain time because of curfew and I don't want to get arrested. And I was like, oh, okay, maybe we just try a different day. I was like, yeah, it's just.

[Em]

It's like the world is like just on its axis, but it's like tipping. But it's also changing every day, but also getting worse every day. And like, there's more like fun wrenches thrown into everything. I mean, it felt like this is all this was gonna happen at some. I felt like we were barreling toward it. Now that we're here. It's a scary thing, you know, how bad it is. How bad it is. I went and got a twisted tea from my mini fridge. You remember the last time I drank.

[Christine]

A twisted tea when another horrible crisis. What happened?

[Em]

Yes, correct. Editing our goddamn live show. Oh my God, I drank these for so long. And then to stay awake. And then I. And I drink them at the ghost hunts to stay awake. And then I stopped because I was like, oh, I'm so triggered by. By spiked iced tea. I can't even think about it. And now here I am. I just went to my mini fridge and grabbed it without thinking. It's like two o' clock in the afternoon. That's crisis mode kicking in. This is my body keeps a score and twisted tea. Twisted tea is like a somatic memory for me.

[Christine]

You know, it's gotta be. I mean, I honestly, you know who I also want to give a shout out to is all the therapists in the world right now. Because I had my therapy session last.

[Em]

Night, Lord bless them.

[Christine]

To talk about everything going on in the world. And I was just like, are you okay? Like you have to. You're just hearing every single person's like, like independent horror version of this. Like. So anyway, shout out to all the therapists out there who are like holding the down for us because I feel so bad for you.

[Em]

At least they have their own therapists usually.

[Christine]

Yeah, right. No, I did. I was like, you have a therapist, right? Yeah, but no, I. If everyone. I hope everyone's doing okay. As, as okay as you can be.

[Em]

We posted. I mean, this is also coming out like a week later. I don't know. Like I, I don't even know if what's going to be on the news in a week. Like it could be some other whole different nuclear warfare. Who knows what the gonna happen next week. So we're recording this like Friday the 13th of all things.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Em]

I know. And tomorrow is. Tomorrow are all these planned protests cross country. So we're kind of in as we record. We're a little heightened if you can't tell.

[Christine]

Huh. We're a little maybe too on. But also like, I hope you. This is your distraction of the day.

[Em]

Congratulations up here a little bit, I think. And then the twisted tea won't help. So I apologize. But like, you know, this is, this is life Hope y' all are okay.

[Christine]

It's a bad week, everyone. So I hope for your neighbors, look out for your neighbors. And also this is my PSA because I've been having a real struggle. Usually this is a Christine psa, but now that I've got Hank in my life, I'm. I'm. I've been really worried about everyone's. Yeah, I've been really worried about everyone's pets.

[Em]

Eeks up. I know this. It doesn't eke up. It like skyrockets. Like, I feel like the moment you have a pet, you're like, oh my God. I, I don't want any. I mean, not that I ever wanted a pet to suffer, but you'd get this like, personal, like, level of anxiety.

[Christine]

Yeah, I just, I just envision him like crying and like. But so anyway, if. If there is anybody in your life that you are worried about maybe being confronted with, with ice or if you know anyone who's even protesting, regardless of their skin color and maybe they're going to get detained or arrested for protesting. Um, if we could all like make sure we have buddy systems like check ins where if you know someone that has a pet, if they don't get back to you at a certain time, please go check on their pet. Because I'm just thinking of all the dogs out there or cats out there, anyone who either just needs to be fed or like I'm. All the animals that are probably just starving in a house right now or like can't get out to go to the bathroom or what if they're like diabetic or disabled in some way? I'm.

[Em]

So then think about the kids.

[Christine]

Yeah, I can't. That's why I'm thinking about the pets. Because I'm like, this is like, I know this is like such a smaller tidbit that feels like something, but you're right.

[Em]

Like that's where it all. It's like a chain of just horror. I mean, down the line, just none of it is.

[Christine]

Pets is the farthest I can go without like having a full blown mental breakdown personally. So if you know anyone who has any living dependence, please make a buddy system or get into a group chat and start having regular check ins with everyone and know where everyone's backup key is to their place. So.

[Em]

And I hope it's not under a fake rock. Do not under a fake rock. If you're creative True crime podcast, please don't put a rock on a key under your rock.

[Christine]

Get creative. Anyway, I don't. Is there Is that. Why do you drink?

[Em]

I drink. We actually do have some good news in the midst of all this, which obviously was not timed, but we launched our own network, and we haven't talked about it at all, but it's, like, a huge deal to us. We've been trying to do this for years, and. And, you know, with everything going on, and, like, we have so many moving parts just in the podcast itself and, you know, touring, and then I have Beach Sandy. We've just kind of like. And it's been in the works for so long that it sort of felt like when it happened, we were like, okay, here it is. You know, it wasn't as big of a fanfare.

[Christine]

I think we've been trying to create it since, like, Covid.

[Em]

Since, like, for a long time. Like, many years. Yeah. So we finally found the perfect partner, which was Q code, and they've just been awesome in helping us, like, our first show. Ladies and Tangents.

[Christine]

We're so exciting.

[Em]

So happy that there are, like, first little. And then we have some more exciting news coming soon that some of you have been just, like, guessing on. On and stuff. I'm excited to get those out too, but I am not allowed to say anything yet, so.

[Christine]

No, I'm very. I'm very proud of us. It really did. Oh, it's called ParaPods. ParaPods Network.

[Em]

So I didn't know until we got the trademark and the logo and the website domain that parapods are also a type of, like, milliped.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And that was an unfortunate. That was an unfortunate discovery. Although I do find it kind of funny that we didn't really think to look that up. Like, it could have been worse. It could have been something much worse. But it is a weird little worm.

[Christine]

Maybe we'll just do, like, a. Like, some limited edition merch one day with a little worm on it.

[Em]

Okay. We'll put a millipede on it, and it'll be like.

[Christine]

Like our secondary mascot. Like a mascot. So good.

[Em]

A little millipede mascot.

[Christine]

Two little millipedes up on microphones. Just.

[Em]

I'm having the time of my life thinking about this.

[Christine]

Think of all the little pose, you know, I love a freaky little toe, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, but not on a. Well, yeah, from a. There's so many perspective. There are a lot of little toes. Okay. Yeah. So that's our announcement. We're really excited. Ladies and Tangents are some of our greatest podcast pals. We just love them. And, yeah, we have some. We're, like, working behind the scenes, making Stuff happen. Getting creative. It's a really fun time and fun. A lot of like new energy. I feel like in our world, like just a lot of new stuff going on, which is always fun. And then, you know, there's also the rest of the world. So it's a very weird dichotomy. But, you know, I think everyone can relate. Oh, there's a word. It's called hyper. Oh, my gosh. I just sent it to somebody. It's a word that means like, it's this idea that while the world is falling down and all the systems are breaking down, like you're just living your day to day life and there's like this disconnect where you feel like. I mean, like how we feel almost crazy. Like, well, the world's falling apart, but I'm just like going to work and making coffee in the morning, you know.

[Christine]

It just feels like unfortunately that that word these days is just called every day. That's.

[Em]

Yeah, well, it is a scientific word for it and I of course, don't remember, but it's called hyper. Something interesting. And I'm sure it's super interesting.

[Christine]

Oh, I didn't mean it like that. I really. It was very.

[Em]

No, no, I. No, I'm saying I'm sure that the word is great.

[Christine]

I just can't think of is certainly. Here's one word. It's actually one of my friend's favorite words. Juxtaposition.

[Em]

It's an excellent word.

[Christine]

Yeah, it is, because it's. Everything's heightened, including the bad stuff. So, like, everything kind of accidentally comes back down to like a weird baseline.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good juxtaposition. One of my favorite words, which I'm sure everyone knows, is that I always say there's a dichotomy, a dichotomy between the two.

[Christine]

It's not my favorite word until you say it is double on pond with. I don't know.

[Em]

Why are they always about these two? You know, like, there's always a flip because we're Geminis. That's right. You're so smart.

[Christine]

We identify a little too closely to the same coin.

[Em]

You know what I mean?

[Christine]

No. I'm very proud of you. I'm very proud of us for even having a network. This is something we talked about for the longest time.

[Em]

It felt like impossible for a while because we were like, well, nobody wants to do this with us, so, oh.

[Christine]

Well, it was a long road ahead. It was just. It was also a lot of, like, behind the scenes stuff that's like, shockingly, maybe like boring information that it just.

[Em]

Like, we didn't even. We weren't even privy to a lot of it because it was just paperwork and stuff we don't totally, like, understand.

[Christine]

So shout out to our manager, Maggie.

[Em]

Yeah, Maggie just nailed it, as usual.

[Christine]

But it's. No, it's a very big deal and it's definitely being rightfully overshadowed by the state of the world, but it's. It's still. We should eventually have some sort of little celebration for it.

[Em]

I know, I know. And the logo, by the way, if you see it, we actually got the. The Instagram handle. So it is on there if you want to go look or just, you know, look at our. And that's why I drink socials. But it's so Em and I had this deranged day of like, planning the logo because we got to the point where we were like, we need a logo. And we were like, oh, oh, we better come up with one. Instead of just like a clip art microphone, I was like, we're not doing that. So we had this like, unhinged brainstorming session, which involved a lot of screaming at Allison when she was organizing turmeric bottles. She was literally dumping turmeric. Wait, I just told this story, I think, on the podcast. Well, now you know what we were doing. We were making the logo for the paraph.

[Christine]

I'll never forget that day. Cuz I just remember being like, of.

[Em]

All the moments, really the funniest thing that ever happened.

[Christine]

Like, turmeric is not what's necessary right now. Please go somewhere else. I'll be quiet.

[Em]

And then all of a sudden you just hear like, glass. And she goes, oh, I'm just like, I'm just compiling the turmeric. And you're like, why have I told.

[Christine]

You the one time that her. I was on the phone with my mom and both of us are dating. It seems the same person. They both in. Wow. Like, we're obviously on the phone. And while in the same room as us. Allison decided to start the vacuum cleaner while I'm on the phone. And then Tom decided to start the vacuum cleaner while my mom was on the phone. They're just. You could clean and you could hear both of us at the same time go, is that important right now? Like, can you do that later, please? I just. They just. I. They're too type A. They forget what else is going on in the room. What was I going to say? The logo. So I.

[Em]

Am on my deathbed.

[Christine]

By the way. The reason I Drink is because it's confirmed. These are allergies to dog.

[Em]

Shut up.

[Christine]

So I've been coughing since April like this.

[Em]

I'm not joking. That was a Zoc doc doctor you saw.

[Christine]

Yeah, and it was my. My usual one, too, that we did a whole blood panel, everything. And so this is. I. I mean, I'm gonna obviously get on, like, some allergy medication, but this is just forever now.

[Em]

Great.

[Christine]

That's why I drink.

[Em]

Yeah. Good reason. Good reason.

[Christine]

No, the logo, first of all. Shout out again. Of course. We had Kirk do it.

[Em]

He signed his emails. Every single email. He signature was Kirk Parentheses from work. And it made me smile every time. Kirk from work.

[Christine]

He. Yeah, he's a good one. We. I kept pitching. I think it was me that all of the other networks, they don't seem to have, like, a fun logo. It's kind of just like, the word. And I was like, I want to be fun and, like, cutesy.

[Em]

We had to find a way to do it, like, without going overboard with the way we want to, like, our. Like, our podcast logo. They were like, you can't do something like that. It's too much.

[Christine]

So we. Well, your name's Christine, not Allison. Christine. Oh.

[Em]

So never mind. It's Christine.

[Christine]

Christine was the one who. Did you pitch the name Parapods to me? How do we even come up with that?

[Em]

No, Maggie. Well, I did, but Maggie and Steve, at Q Code, pitched it via email while we were literally minutes, not probably seconds from walking on stage a live show. And for some reason, I just turned around and blurted, hey, M. Maggie just sent an idea. Parapods. And we stood there, and we were like. And they were literally doing an announcement at the live show, and we were like, parapods. Parapods. And we were both like, do we like it as it. Like, I think Maggie was the most shocked she's ever been. We were like, love it. And she was like, what? You just check. Good to go. But we had those moments that she hadn't thought of.

[Christine]

I said parapods to M. And we had two different meanings behind it. Christine saw it as paranormal pods.

[Em]

And I thought, oh, it's perfect, because then you take out the normal, and it's just parapods. Like, I thought, ooh, we take out the paranormal. And then it's like parapods.

[Christine]

But I saw it as, like, oh, like a pair of podcasters.

[Em]

I loved that. And since, like, you know, now we have ladies and tangents, and we have you and I, and it's just like this kind of nice little pair of podcasts.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. So. And so the whole point of our network is we want. We want two or multiple friends talking to each other about spooky stuff. And it's. So it's gonna be kind of running the gamut on what type of spooky stu, but spooky friend podcasts. That's the whole thing. And, yeah, it worked out. So one of the things that we were trying to do is how do we make a logo that has to do with, like, friendship while also being spooky and also about a podcast? Yeah, it took. It took quite a lot of stuff, but I think you're the one who realized.

[Em]

Then about an hour in, Alison shows up and she goes, have you thought about just, like, getting a picture of a microphone? And I was like, I'm going to throw that glass turmeric bottle in your head. We were like, have we thought of a microphone? We were like, so derang.

[Christine]

But that's where our best stuff comes up. Because then one of us, I think it was me who said, oh, what about, like, a best friendship like, locket? Where, like, it's kind of like the two pieces come together. And I think you're the one who said, oh, when it's upside down, it looks like a Ouija planchette. And I went, shut the fuck up, Cristine.

[Em]

Well, and then I think maybe even I don't know who came up the Ouija thing, but then there was a circle, and we were like, oh, wait, what could the circle be? We were like, oh, a magnifying glass for, like, kind of true crime. True crime or anything. If you have not seen it, you're like, what the fuck are you talking about? It's supposed to look like a little friendship necklace that's also a little planchette.

[Christine]

Anyway, poor Kirk from work, because we sent this email, we were like, hey, what do you feel about making a best friendship locket that's also a Ouija planchette upside down and a magnifying glass.

[Em]

With an audio form last Thursday. Thank you. Poor guy.

[Christine]

Anyway, shout out again to Kirk from work, because he's a dream also. What was I gonna say? Just shout out to everybody. Just shout out to all the people who made this possible.

[Em]

It's just been a lot of work behind the scenes for a lot of people. Were mostly not us. So thank you, everybody, for that. Oh, and here we go.

[Christine]

This podcast is sponsored by Fay Nutrition. Fay connects you directly with registered dietitians, the real food and nutrition experts for personalized nutrition counseling tailored specifically to you and the best part is that all dietitians on Fay take insurance. So 95% of people pay $0 for their sessions. Truly $0. And now that I'm walking, I'm, I'm, I'm eating a little better. I'm not even trying to. I don't know what's happening. Maybe the sun really does help you mentally. Faye matches you one on one with a dedicated dietitian who will help you understand your body's unique needs. And your personal dietitian will work with you to create sustainable, evidence based programs, not just quick fixes. Whether you're trying to lose weight, dealing with low energy, digestive discomfort, managing conditions like pcos or diabetes, navigating food allergies, I mean, you name it. Or if you just want clarity amidst all the confusing diet noise, getting personalized guidance could be the foundational support you need. At faye, they believe expert nutrition counseling should be accessible to everyone. And it's so simple to find a dietitian who fits your needs and to instantly check your insurance coverage before signing up. Having a personalized nutritionist used to cause big bucks, but not anymore with Fay. Listeners of and that's why we drink and qualify to see a registered dietitian for as little as $0 by visiting feynutrition.com drink that's Fay nutrition.com drink one last time, that's F nutrition.com drink and make sure you use the URL to know that we sent you.

[Em]

Meow Meow meow.

[Christine]

Hello? It's me. It's Juniper. Wait, what was my accent last time? Hello? Nope. Geo, get out of here. Hey, it's Juniper. Yeah, yeah, that's me. I'm hungry. Well, good thing I have Smalls. Smalls cat food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you you would might find in your fridge and it's delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. And I gotta say, I've eaten a lot of things in this world. A lot of things I should have eaten and a lot of things I should not have eaten. But I'll tell you, out of all of that, Smalls is my favorite. To get 60% off your first order plus free shipping, head to smalls.com and use our promo code drink for a limited time only. And here's a fun fact for you. After switching to smalls, 88% of cat owners reported overall health improvements. That's why I feel big and strong for a limited time only. Because you Aren't. And that's why we drink listener. You can get 60% off your first order of Smalls, plus free shipping by using our code drink. Yeah, that's 60% off when you head to smalls.com and use promo code DRINK. Again, that's promo code DRINK for 60% off your first order, plus free [e-mail]. yam, yam, yum, yum, yum. Here's why I drink this week. It is a story called the Ballaroy Mansion. And if you've heard of it before, it's because it was in our very first book, a haunted road Atlas. And it's the Philadelphia Story.

[Em]

I read that book.

[Christine]

You sure did, because you had to interject.

[Em]

I did.

[Christine]

Yeah. It was funny. Someone was like, what's it like writing a whole book? And I was like, technically, it was half a book.

[Em]

Yeah, it was, but then we wrote two of them, and so I was like, now we've officially each written one book, which makes it better.

[Christine]

You get it. You get it. That's exactly what I said, too.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

All right, so the Ballarat Mansion. This is in Philly. This is in northwest Philly, and it's in a neighborhood called Chestnut Hill on what I think is a precious mermaid lane. Imagine having, like, a house with a pool in the back, and you get to play mermaids on Mermaid Lane.

[Em]

You'd be the talk of the town.

[Christine]

Okay, quick question before it gets scary. What if we were to play mermaids? What is your.

[Em]

And we will.

[Christine]

What is your tail color? What is your sea life companion? And then what's your superpower?

[Em]

Love it. Okay. I am typically purple tail, and I think my companion. I'm trying to think of how it.

[Christine]

Because, like, flounders overdone.

[Em]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'm like. I feel like it's probably changed since I was a kid. I'd say maybe a seahorse, but that also feels a little like on the nose. Oh. Maybe like a dolphin. I feel like something that can like. Oh, an octopus. They're so smart. An octopus.

[Christine]

Cool.

[Em]

What is yours?

[Christine]

Well, what's your superpower?

[Em]

Oh, superpower. I can talk to the octopus.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Well, and he can talk back. That's important, too. So I can talk to anything. You know, also.

[Christine]

Leave it to the professional yapper that her superpowers. That she could. Yeah.

[Em]

Just talking to more entities, more living.

[Christine]

The superpower isn't that you can talk, it's that you can listen. That's what it is.

[Em]

That's beautiful.

[Christine]

M. Mine is always green to purple, iridescent, like, depending on where the light hits purple. My companion is. I always want to say, no, not fl. Well, an otter. But for some reason, the otter is always a mess. Like, she has a crush on a shark or something. And I'm like, girl, let's go.

[Em]

Probably, like, it's holding hands with another otter, and you're like, hello. You're supposed to be, like, my sidekick.

[Christine]

Yeah, I feel like I. It was kind of like a. I accidentally, like, rescued her from, like. Like, a patch of coral or something. And, like. And now, like, she just won't leave me alone. Like, I feel like it's kind of a frenemy. Look.

[Em]

What the thing. Look at the thanks you get.

[Christine]

I know, I know. My superpower. I like to think that I can just swim faster than all the other mermaids.

[Em]

That's a really good one, though, because that would, like, really come in handy every day. Yeah, you get to the cafeteria first.

[Christine]

That's what I'm saying.

[Em]

You could probably outrun that fucking otter if you really wanted to.

[Christine]

Yeah, but something keeps me held back.

[Em]

That's kind of the will they, won't they? Beauty of that friendship, you know?

[Christine]

Okay, so pretend we're on mermaid Lane.

[Em]

Yep.

[Christine]

Except not mermaids anymore. Now just people. But wasn't that fun? For a moment?

[Em]

It was. I like to live in the imaginary space for a few minutes at a time.

[Christine]

It was a nice escape. While nuclear war is eminent, if we.

[Em]

Don'T get pbs, we're gonna make our own imagination.

[Christine]

Okay, so Valerie Mansion. It's on Mermaid lane. It is 7,000 square feet. Okay, girl. Which fun fact, because I have. I constantly spew this fact to people. A mansion, by definition, is 5,000 square feet and five bedrooms. If you don't have both, then it's not a mansion.

[Em]

So, like, yours and mine are both like triple mansions, right?

[Christine]

Yes, sure. On Mermaid Lane. Where anything's possible. Yeah.

[Em]

Where dreams are reality. Where your delusions come true.

[Christine]

Yeah, See? Oh, that's the superpower.

[Em]

That's actually really nice.

[Christine]

So 7,000 square feet, and it has over 30 rooms. Now, I do want to clarify that that does include, like, kitchen and living room, because in my stupid brain, 30 rooms means 30 bedrooms.

[Em]

Oh, 30 rooms. Yeah. That's an important distinction.

[Christine]

Yeah. So this may be named after the Chateau de Balleroy in France. That's the best guess we've got. And it is often called the most haunted house in the country. Although obviously it's competing with other house. Yeah, but Maybe in Philly. That's what they say. So this was built in 1911. And the rumor goes that the original owner of this house was a carpenter who allegedly killed his wife. And one of the 30 rooms, like.

[Em]

Clue, what the fuck? In one of the rooms.

[Christine]

In the bedroom.

[Em]

Is it in the bedroom?

[Christine]

Apparently in the bedroom.

[Em]

But why did you say one of you?

[Christine]

To guess what? To have a moment.

[Em]

It did feel like we were playing Clue. I was like, do they not know? Like, that's just so random.

[Christine]

Wouldn't they have figured that out? Anyway, the carpenter killed his wife in the bedroom.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And the house. I don't. I don't know what happened in between this time or I don't know when that happened, but all that matters is by 1926, it was bought by another family called the Easby's.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Cute little name.

[Em]

I like it.

[Christine]

They are direct descendants of Civil War general George Mead. So. George Mead.

[Em]

Oh, Mead.

[Christine]

He's a. Well, you know what that.

[Em]

No, I have actually.

[Christine]

Actually, I was gonna say, as a Fredericksburger, he. I hear his name.

[Em]

That was a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

He fought in the battle of Fredericksburg. So, yeah, they're direct descendants of him. I think they're his great. They're his grandkids. And as descendants of him and as people connected and attached to history, they had quite an antique collection in this mans. When they moved in, they brought with them a cannonball from the battle of Gettysburg. They brought in items from Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Napoleon, Mary Antoinette, Jesus. One of the things that they had was the sterling silver that was used at the dinner. How do I say it? I'm trying to make it a more concise sentence. It was the silverware they used at the Declaration of Independence signing. Whoa.

[Em]

They had silverware. They're like, here. We brought some refreshments, some light refreshments, some really watery lemonade. And here's the silver.

[Christine]

Some dirty berries from outside.

[Em]

We dug these up outside.

[Christine]

But no, I guess after they all signed, they had, like, a big party. And at that dinner, they have this mansion, had the silver.

[Em]

I guess that would have been the party of the century. Literally the party of the.

[Christine]

Certainly the best party of the country.

[Em]

Millennium. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. The first party of this. Of the country. It's kind of cool.

[Christine]

Well, I only have, like, a random. I was trying to find more history before we got into the ghosts. I only have one more piece of history. Ghosts.

[Em]

Ghosts. Ghosts.

[Christine]

Which is that in 1992, the best year ever, there was a robbery in the mansion, and over $200,000 worth of stuff was stolen.

[Em]

I thought it was the best year ever. It sounds like it was not a good time.

[Christine]

Not for the Balleri Mansion.

[Em]

No.

[Christine]

But somewhere in Freehold, New Jersey, maybe a hospital where there's a crying baby. It was a pretty good time.

[Em]

It's a little sparkle over there.

[Christine]

So, anyway, that was the only fun fact I have for you, is that at some point, some of the stuff got stolen.

[Em]

That stinks.

[Christine]

Okay, now onto the ghost cannonball.

[Em]

Worth, like, $200,000.

[Christine]

I don't. Well, they probably could only lug that one thing up. It was so heavy.

[Em]

They had to, like. They were like, all right, this is all we're leaving with then. Like, what do you do with the giant cannonball?

[Christine]

You know, funny you should single out the cannonball, because I don't know it. If there's a history buff out there who wants to, like, let us know more of the info. Awesome. But apparently there's, like, some drama with this cannonball.

[Em]

I feel like. I'm not surprised. Civil War, like, collectors get really dramatic. I'm not saying they're not. Yeah, but I mean, the collectors, like, they get really intense. I mean, like, any sort of collection, I guess, but.

[Christine]

So apparently there was some guy. I don't remember his name. It was, like, Squiggles or something stupid.

[Em]

Yeah, I'm sure that was it.

[Christine]

Him and General Mead had some, like, real beef with each other. That was Hank. They had some real beef with each other. And he, like, defied General Meade's orders. He was told, like, don't go to this section. And then he did anyway. But then he ended up getting, like, the medal of Honor, and this cannonball is somehow involved.

[Em]

Oh, boy.

[Christine]

So there's drama there. Drama. Okay, so onto the podcast.

[Em]

That's for another podcast to come.

[Christine]

It is. So first encounter for the Easby family is that when they moved in, they had kids. They had George and Steven.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And so George and Steven would be the great grandkids of General Mead.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

I think George was, like, 11, and Steven was 6, and there was this fountain out in the courtyard of this mansion, and they would go and sit by this fountain. Some sources say that Steven was, like, weirdly obsessed with the fountain. I don't know how true that is. If it's, like, just to add flair.

[Em]

I mean, I guess if you're a kid, like, a fountain in your new house is pretty cool.

[Christine]

I saw one source, though, that, like, he would, like, stare at a picture of it all the Time.

[Em]

Oh, okay. That's weird. It's good thing to stare at it if they're like little butterflies or like, you miss koi. A koi pond. I don't know. But, yeah, staring at a picture of it is a little strange.

[Christine]

Well, so, yeah, some rumors say that he was obsessed with this fountain. George was like, I don't know. This fountain freaks me out. I'm not really into it. But one day, they're both at the fountain together, and George recalls seeing their reflections. But he only sees his reflection. And where Steven's reflection should be, there's a skeleton. And days after this, Steven gets mysteriously sick and unexpectedly passed away. And he was six.

[Em]

That's so traumatic for that child. I mean, obviously, but, like, to feel like you knew or like you connected it somehow. Oh, that's sad.

[Christine]

So ever since then, people have always heard and seen a little blond boy throughout the property. And workers on the property have seen him looking at them from the window where his room used to be. And one time at a dinner party when George was much older and he lived at this house on his own, he had a dinner party here. Everyone heard a loud crash. And when they went to go into the other room to see what it was a portrait of, Stephen had lifted itself off of its hook and flown across the room.

[Em]

Bye.

[Christine]

So throughout the years, Steven was a frequent ghost at the mansion. Other spirits here include an older woman with a cane hovering in the hall. Girl, you don't need the cane if you're hovering.

[Em]

I was gonna say. Well, maybe it, like, helps. Oh, God. Did you ever watch Haunting of Hill House? There's, like, that cane, and he, like, drags himself along.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Scary. No, I haven't seen that. But thank you so much for something.

[Em]

For the visual.

[Christine]

Horrible. I was thinking, like, maybe like, she rose herself with the cane or something, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, that's sort of the same vibe. A little more whimsical, though.

[Christine]

Sort. Yeah, a little wispier. Okay, so old lady in the hall, a monk, which I've gotten no information on that. Just a random.

[Em]

He probably comes with one of those antiques.

[Christine]

Oh, so smart. Thomas Jefferson. Well, you're as smart as that octopus.

[Em]

That's right. We share a brain.

[Christine]

Thomas Jefferson is a ghost here by the dining room clock and by the dining room clock only, which is so interesting, the concept of ghosts. I'm like, thomas Jefferson has so many other places to be.

[Em]

That makes no sense.

[Christine]

Is he scattered across where only 5% of his spirit is all the time here? Or is it 5% of the time his whole spirit is here.

[Em]

I have a feeling they can just manifest in any place. Time is not. Yeah, you know, they're in a different dimension. Like time is not relevant. I feel like that's what they say about if you have like spirit guides or angels. And people say like, well, what if they're busy? And it's like, no, that's not. They don't have like the time, the linear time that we have. You know, they like exist sans time.

[Christine]

I still. I mean, obviously we're not by a clock.

[Em]

Maybe he's like, what's this thing? Because he forgot, actually.

[Christine]

That's so trippy. You are as smart as that octopus. I gotta say.

[Em]

It's this twisted tea I'm halfway through.

[Christine]

Well, in the mansion, you know, there's some usual stuff that happens, like lights flickering, people hearing voices and footsteps. People have gotten grabbed and the security alarms go off for no reason. And they've gone off so many times that the cops in the area are aware of this and will literally report ghosts as the cause.

[Em]

I love that. And then someone robs them of 200 some thousand dollars and they're like, I know, shoot. We thought it was another ghost, honestly.

[Christine]

Maybe it was one of the cops because they're like, well, no one's coming, you know.

[Em]

Yeah, we know. We know how this one goes.

[Christine]

So one time a minister was at the house and a teapot threw itself across the room and hit him in the head. Oh, yikes. Also in this mansion, weirdly, no plants can be kept alive.

[Em]

Oh, ew. That feels ick.

[Christine]

Yeah, there's persistent knocking on the walls and people have witnessed some sort of ectoplasm mist everywhere.

[Em]

What, like a wet mistake?

[Christine]

Like a. Like a smoke mist?

[Em]

Okay. The ectoplasm threw me off. I thought of like goo.

[Christine]

No, I would think the same thing. Like someone just like, like, like a children's slime is just hovering in the air.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

We will talk about the mist again in a second. So.

[Em]

Great.

[Christine]

Maybe some of your answers, you're. Well, you'll get those. There was one worker named Dave who refused to go in the basement by himself because the last time he did, he heard someone down there calling his name over and over again.

[Em]

Dave.

[Christine]

People have seen and heard. I know you're gonna like this one because this one never happens. I'm so excited when it does. People have seen and heard phantom vintage cars coming up the driveway. I love when that happens. Or like the horse drawn carriages.

[Em]

Oh, the horses too. Oh, I love that shit where you're like, that is not a modern day vehicle sound. Oh, that's so cool.

[Christine]

It's also. It always blows my mind when you're seeing something outside of the house. Yeah.

[Em]

Like when something repeats just like as a scene almost outside.

[Christine]

Yeah. And it makes me wonder, like, how far away, proximity wise, until that's not possible. Or can I just see a ghost, like downtown right now on like a main street. You know what I mean?

[Em]

I wonder if you just have to like slip into a different time for a moment. You know what I mean? Like, it seems like it happens when people are kind of like in that, I don't know, sometimes like half awake state or.

[Christine]

Yeah. I don't know. It's very. We'll never know.

[Em]

We might.

[Christine]

We might. And then we won't be able to tell anyone. We'll solve the case in eternity.

[Em]

Perhaps someday.

[Christine]

George, who again ended up inheriting the house from his parents when he was older, he would wake up to someone sitting on the bed and grabbing his arm to a point of it being bruised the next day.

[Em]

Oh, oh, that's bad.

[Christine]

People have also had items ripped out of their hands. He is very open about the place being haunted. There was actually an interview when he was still alive where he's talking about the ghost and he was so blase about it. He was like, oh, yeah, the ghosts. He would have reporters come in sometimes if they wanted to do an interview. And one reporter had a tape recorder and it flew out of her hand and he was like, oh, what happened? Did, like, you get like a shock or something? And she was like, no, I didn't do anything. It got ripped out of my hand. Ew. Hated that. One source says that when George was a kid, he put on a puppet show at the house and everyone watching ended up looking horrified. And he later found out it's because they saw the puppet's face morph into a skull.

[Em]

Oh, my. Multiple people saw that happen. Oh, isn't that horrific? That's horrific. And then they're like. He's like, time for the applause.

[Christine]

Yeah, let me bow.

[Em]

Yeah, go to your room.

[Christine]

There is also the blue room, which is the room that held a lot of the antiques, especially the. The silverware. And in this room is also the death chair, which is apparently built in the 18th century. That's kind of as much info as we have. Some. One source said, like, oh, well, Warlock made it. And I was like, okay, whatever, Maybe. I don't know.

[Em]

Maybe. But.

[Christine]

So it was made in the 18th century. And it's. They think it's cursed because whoever sits in it will have an untimely death. And after four different people died within two weeks of sitting in the chair, George prohibited people from ever sitting in it again.

[Em]

Do you think the little boy sat in it?

[Christine]

Oh, like, when no one was looking?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, I think you did just crack a case. That feels sad. That feels like that would make sense. It said that this chair also has a ghost attached to it. And the ghost name is depending on the source. Amelia or Amanda. Most sources said Amanda, which I don't know how deep into TikTok you are these days, but for the people who like TikTok and know what sound bite I'm referring to, there's. There's a TikTok sound where people show, like, a really, like, creepy version of themselves. And the voiceover is, I'm Amanda. Like, I'm six. Like, it's very. It's very creepy. Anyway, that's what I think of. That's what I think of when I hear, like, this ghost Amanda.

[Em]

That's like, okay.

[Christine]

Cursed to a chair.

[Em]

Yeah. It'll be relevant for everybody.

[Christine]

Someone. Someone out there really appreciate chuckle.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Okay, so, yes, this ghost Amanda is attached to the chair. Depending on who you talk to, the name might change, but I'm sticking with that. Amanda apparently lures people to sit onto the chair. Some people have felt like they couldn't control it. They just followed her and sat down. She appears as a colorful mist some would call an ectoplasm. And some people have said that she's red. Some people have said she's blue. I saw more people say red, but the pictures I saw online are blue, so I don't know. Yeah, the mist itself, it's like a blue smoke or red smoke. One victim was a housekeeper. She died the soonest. She sat in the chair and immediately slumped over.

[Em]

Like, in the chair.

[Christine]

In the chair. And then within a few hours, she was dead.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

The creepiest one was, I guess he started as an employee and became, like, a friend over the years. His name's Paul, and he, for weeks leading up to his death, swore that he was seeing a blue fog following him around. And he even ended up. They had a psychic medium come through, and he was telling her that he would see Amanda everywhere. Not just, like, in the house going up and down the stairs or in the halls. He would see Amanda outside of the house. And actually, this answers my own question. He would literally be out doing his own thing, running errands. And from the corner of his eye, he would swear he was seeing the smoke.

[Em]

So it was, like, falling?

[Christine]

No, no, even creepier. He said that he was seeing Amanda in the rearview mirror of his car.

[Em]

Ah. I mean, that's out of some sort of, like, children's horror story. That.

[Christine]

That's truly. He apparently said, like, I feel like I'm losing my mind. I can see her everywhere. I don't know what's going on. And within a few months, he died.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

At some point. I think it must have been before that happened. At some point in the timeline, George invites a psychic medium to investigate the house, and her name is Judith. She immediately mentioned how many spirits were in the house. As soon as she walked in, she was like, holy shit, that's gonna be a big gig. She also saw Amanda, and she told George that the blue room was disturbing.

[Em]

Disturbing is not the word you want to hear.

[Christine]

A separate psychic told George on another occasion to sage the room immediately. That's not a good sign either. George blamed the chair's activity on Amanda. Apparently, one source said that George calls Amanda a loose cannon. And I was like, that's old.

[Em]

That's crazy. Hey, no, I'm not signing off on. I'm not putting my name next to that one. I'll just either right off the bat.

[Christine]

And only one source said it, but they put it in quotes of, like, a loose cannon, as George says. And I'm like, why would he do that?

[Em]

Yo, take that off the Internet. That could be dangerous. If Amanda finds out, Amanda's gonna be.

[Christine]

Pissed the second she discovers Google. You're in danger, girl. Watch out. So, yeah, Amanda would apparently slam doors. Open and shut. She would move around as that. Miss, as I told you, one guy who worked at the mansion, he thought that the temperature was dropping because he could see smoke in front of him. And he was like, oh. Like, how quickly does the temperature have to drop for me to be able to, like, see my breath? And this was an interview George did. George was telling the story, and he was like, oh. I had to tell him. That was like, ectoplasm. Like, whoops.

[Em]

Oh, that's. Sorry, that's not your breath. That's Amanda.

[Christine]

I'm Amanda.

[Em]

So I don't even know the joke.

[Christine]

It's okay. So when they. He saw the fog, and George was like, oh, that's actually a ghost. But they walk back to the car, and his friend feels someone hit him, and then looks at George and is like, why'd you just hit me? And obviously, George was like, Feet away and hadn't hit him that night at his own house. The friend then saw the ectoplasm in his house because he thought that his house was catching on fire. He was like, why is there smoke everywhere?

[Em]

Oh, shit. Yeah, that would be. I mean, the really alarming thing to see.

[Christine]

And apparently he. It was Amanda. I don't know if he died, but given the record of everyone else, I'm gonna assume he didn't survive.

[Em]

Or at least his house. He was. I don't know. I guess there wasn't an actual fire, but. Yeah, it can't. It sounds ominous.

[Christine]

Or maybe Amanda was just like, I see you, and then just left. I don't know.

[Em]

Maybe she was just like, eh, pass.

[Christine]

She's just popping in.

[Em]

She's a loose cannon.

[Christine]

So also, my question is, like, was the death chair and Amanda. Not a thing when they were kids? But you made a great point of maybe Steven. Little Steven sat in the chair.

[Em]

Maybe that's when it all started. Maybe he sat in it and then, like, it had nothing to do with. But maybe he died. I don't know. Maybe then he got attached to it. I have no clue.

[Christine]

That's a good point, though, because maybe.

[Em]

He activated something in it.

[Christine]

I was thinking, like, why doesn't any. Why didn't anyone care about this before George, like, lived in the house by himself and all his friends started dying.

[Em]

Right. I was wondering that too.

[Christine]

But no, that's it. You may be on something there. Well, okay, this is my favorite part. This is more about Judith, the psychic that he brought in.

[Em]

Right?

[Christine]

The psychic says that Amanda isn't malevolent. Okay, maybe she's just saying that, like, for pr.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. She's like. She needs a little bit of a. Like, a spin on her reputation.

[Christine]

Judith is, like, for my own life. You're not malevolent, girl. Yeah, you're just misunderstood.

[Em]

I promise this I pinky prompt. Would I lie to you?

[Christine]

Would I lie? So Judith says, oh, she's not malevolent. She's just actually appearing to help you cross over. I'm like, okay, maybe in the rear.

[Em]

View mirror, making me crash my car into a pole. I don't think so. I don't think so. Maybe she's bad at her job. Maybe she really is trying and she just keeps fumbling it, you know? Like, maybe she's like, oh, I'm trying to help. Oops, I scared you.

[Christine]

I don't know, you know, if someone could write a story or a movie script about, like, a clumsy guardian angel, that would be hysterical.

[Em]

Him. I did do that when I was at Nickelodeon. I wrote a. Well, I wrote like a whole pitch deck about a show called. I think it was called. Oh, shit, I forget the name of it, but it was about someone becoming a guardian angel and being really bad at it. And it was like my comedy pitch. That's so funny that you say that.

[Christine]

That's hysterical.

[Em]

I like that it's somewhere. It's probably not very good, but I was.

[Christine]

That would be.

[Em]

And then my boss was so cruel about it that I just shoved it in a drawer.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Well, that energy beyond the content of it, it was. She just really didn't like me. But, yeah. Wow, that's so funny. I was like, oh, I wrote a script one time and then you said that.

[Christine]

And I was like, that's so freaky. Wow.

[Em]

Mind reader.

[Christine]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm so proud of you. I know that your boss wasn't. But that sounds like a great. If I were your boss, I'd have been like, that's genius. We're doing it now.

[Em]

Thank you so much for the kindness.

[Christine]

So. Okay. Put a pin in that. We'll repin that.

[Em]

I will, I will.

[Christine]

So anyway, Judith was also able, in her time at the house to help George find some additional antiques and artifacts that he didn't know the family had. Oh, cool. So one night she was driving over to the mansion and she kept hearing the name Longfellow. And when she got to the house, she asked George like, what the hell does this mean? And he said, oh, that was my mom's. My mom had a favorite poem by Longfellow, and it was called Children's Hour.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

They decided to look at the bookshelf and see if they could find a Longfellow book. And they didn't find that, but they saw one book was sticking out of place. Like it had, like, jutted itself out somehow. So he grabbed that book and opened it up, and it was a book of poetry.

[Em]

And.

[Christine]

And when he opened the book, there was an old envelope sitting wedged in the pages. And the envelope said, to my son Mead, in the event of my death. And the page it was sitting inside of was the poem Children's Hour.

[Em]

By Longfellow.

[Christine]

By Longfellow.

[Em]

Fuck me. That's crazy.

[Christine]

I do have the poem if you would like me to read it to you.

[Em]

Yes, please.

[Christine]

It's a little long, but it's. It's fine. Do you.

[Em]

I would love to hear it.

[Christine]

Okay. I feel like you would like it. Yeah, it feels like Especially if you got this as like a message from your mom who's passed on. It's very precious.

[Em]

Oh yeah. Okay, I'm ready.

[Christine]

Between the dark and the daylight, when the night is beginning to lower, comes a pause in the day's occupations, and that is known as the children's hour. I hear in the chamber above me the patter of little feet, the sound of a door that is opened, and voices soft and sweet from my study I see in the lamplight descending the broad hall stair, Alice and grave Alice and laughing Allegra and Edith with golden hair. A whisper and then a silence. Yet I know by their merry eyes they are plotting and planning together to take me by surprise. A sudden rush from the stairway, a sudden raid from the hall by three doors left unguarded, they enter my castle. Wa. They climb up into my turret, over the arms and back of my chair and I try to escape. They surround me, they seem to be everywhere. And they almost devour me with kisses. Their arms about me entwine. Till I think of the Bishop of Bingen in this mouse tower on the Rhine. Do you think, oh blue eyed Banditti, because you have scaled the wall, Such an old mustache as I am is not a match for you at all. I have you fast in my fortress and will not let you depart. But put you down into the dungeon in the round tower of my heart, and there will I keep you forever. Yes, forever and a day. Till the walls shall crumble to ruin and molder in dust away. But like, imagine like your mom, especially that last one. Isn't that precious?

[Em]

Well, and then like you think about like the fact that they lost one of their kids, like they had two and then they lost one. And it's just like that just is so like, what a punch in them minute.

[Christine]

Your eyes watering?

[Em]

Oh, I'm cry. Yeah, I'm fully crying. Sorry. I'm telling you, I went. I went off. Okay, I've said this. I've went off birth control not to have a baby, but because I wanted to figure out my pcos. And so my hormones are just like, we're back, you know, like you can't control us anymore. So I cry a lot, even though my Zoloft dose is still pretty high, so the tears make it through.

[Christine]

But that, that last section really did.

[Em]

That was just something that last section.

[Christine]

Really gets me of. And there I will keep you forever. Yes, forever and a day. Till the wall shall crumble to ruin and mold her and dust away. That if my mom passed away and then I Saw that in a page that said, in the event of my death, this is for my son.

[Em]

Like an intentional message. I mean, that's like the most. Oh, that got me.

[Christine]

So that's. Judith helped him find that envelope. Also through her work, they found a pair of his mother's favorite candlesticks that were, like, weirdly shoved in the rafters of the att.

[Em]

Weird.

[Christine]

They also found a desk with a secret compartment. And inside was a, quote, bullet riddled flag that General Mead had captured at Gettysburg.

[Em]

Holy. They were like, we can show you the cannonball, but we're not gonna show you this bad boy. This one's staying locked away.

[Christine]

Bullet riddled is just wild.

[Em]

That's wild.

[Christine]

And then in an abandoned trunk, secret compartment.

[Em]

Like, imagine being like, what is that? And you see, like, burn marks.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh, my God. Yeah. No, thank you. In an abandoned trunk that they were led to, in theory, from his mother and Judith. They found papers suggesting that George was the heir to a large amount of money. And by a large amount of money, I mean cowabunga. A lot of money. Because the paperwork they found said that his great, great grandfather, who I think was General Meade, I'm not sure he loaned the country the money to buy Florida and was never paid back.

[Em]

Yeah, I mean, we've all been. So we need a quick loan to buy Florida.

[Christine]

So as the next of kin, he was literally owed Florida. Imagine getting paperwork that says, hey, you actually own a 50th.

[Em]

Cannot imagine that. Yeah, especially Florida. Like, hey, I got some. I got something. Let's. Let's get to work, baby. I got Florida under my purview. I got some changes to make.

[Christine]

I feel like some people would be like, keep the money. I don't want it. Like, I'd keep it.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that.

[Christine]

So Judith and George were then led by again, maybe by his mother, to another old desk. And in it was a letter from his father.

[Em]

Wow. Does this guy just, like. I guess it's a huge house. I was like, does he not just, like, look for secret drawers like I do? I guess not.

[Christine]

I guess you probably stop it.

[Em]

Like, millions of dollars of antiques. You probably can't, like, even begin to look in every spot.

[Christine]

So when you've got over 30 rooms, how many drawers can you open, you know?

[Em]

God, I know. No, it sounds exhausting.

[Christine]

What. What did to do.

[Em]

And it's like, oh, Florida in this one. Oh. Like a. A priceless artifact, historical artifact in this one. Oh, I'm tired, though. I don't want to make fun of Him. I know this is like, not, you know, but.

[Christine]

But also, how would this not motivate you? Just found out you own Florida?

[Em]

Imagine I would literally take this house.

[Christine]

And every inch the hyper fixation. I would have to look through every nook and cranny.

[Em]

I would have to say, like. Like, clearly there's a lot going on. Even the nice, like, poem. It's like, what the else is in here that they didn't tell me about?

[Christine]

I would literally be peeling the wood paneling off the walls or something. I'd be like, where is it?

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

So he finds this letter from his father, who, by the way, was a huge skeptic. And according to George, he was raised his whole life to never believe in ghosts.

[Em]

Interesting.

[Christine]

And now he lives in this haunted ass mansion.

[Em]

I kind of love it.

[Christine]

He finds this letter from his dad. And the letter says, I've seen the ghosts. And. And also, coward.

[Em]

You wouldn't tell him till you're dead. That's up.

[Christine]

I've seen the ghosts. And don't be afraid is basically what it was. But then again, it's like, I feel like Amanda wrote that and signed a data.

[Em]

Yeah, you know, it's just like, covered in, like. It's like that chiller font, and it's just ectoplasm.

[Christine]

She's like, covered in drips of ectoplasm and blood. So anyway, in 2005, George ended up dying. I don't know if he died in the mansion, but he died while living at the mansion after living there his whole life. And actually in an interview back in the 80s, because it was haunted then and he was talking about it.

[Em]

Right.

[Christine]

He was quoted saying, when I leave here, I'm coming back to haunt the house if the next family doesn't take good care of the place.

[Em]

Oh, okay. Okay. Only if. Only if his dad might be hanging around too. Right. So he could do well, I guess. I guess. His dad's not there. His mom was there. Right.

[Christine]

But his little brother is there because Steven's still there.

[Em]

That's right. Yeah.

[Christine]

His mom is clearly lingering around. If you can reach out to her.

[Em]

Well, maybe she had that unfinished business and maybe, like, once he found her messages. I don't know.

[Christine]

Yeah, I also heard that, like, his uncle also haunts the mansion, but I saw no, like, stories about that.

[Em]

Doesn't get any, like, air time. Yeah, he's just like, amanda took over. He's like, damn, I'm related to these people.

[Christine]

He's like, I'm gonna go sit over here. You guys have fun.

[Em]

Fine. Whatever.

[Christine]

So in 2012, all the antiques were sold off, and a friend of a friend ended up buying the mansion.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Their names were Jay and Susie, and they moved in with their kids, and they only moved in after. Like, they knew it was haunted. They only moved in after the mutual friend between them. And George said, like, I've never had experiences there. It's probably not that haunted.

[Em]

They just had to confirm it. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah. So then they moved in. And just in case they had the house blessed.

[Em]

Also smart.

[Christine]

And since then, Jay has said that they've heard some sounds throughout the house, but, like, nothing super spooktacular. Meanwhile, Susie and her friends have all seen the little boy.

[Em]

Susie and her friends.

[Christine]

Susie sees him in reflections. Terrifying.

[Em]

Just like the boy. Just like the brother did.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah.

[Em]

Skeleton reflection.

[Christine]

Well, finally we can see his actual reflection.

[Em]

Whoa, I hope.

[Christine]

Yeah. And her friends. There was one, like, dinner party or something where her friends came over and they all looked into the dining room at the same time for no reason. They just all saw something from the corner of their eye and saw him walking through the dining room.

[Em]

I don't like that.

[Christine]

But yeah. So I guess at the. As far as we know, as of 2012, Steven is still there. I don't know if anyone else is, but, yeah, that is the Ballerina Mansion.

[Em]

That is quite a tale. I was like, I've heard of this place. Yeah, it's in our book.

[Christine]

I did check, according to our. Our website, where we do have an episode list. Please go check that out. It doesn't say we've covered the Bowery Mansion, so if it does, it just sounds so familiar.

[Em]

But I think it's just from doing the book, I assume.

[Christine]

Oh, also, another place you heard it from, because I have covered it before. But do you remember way back when, when we did our test tour?

[Em]

Our test.

[Christine]

Oh, we were practicing markets. It was when we did our very first show in Philadelphia back in, like, 2018.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

I covered this at our Philly Live show.

[Em]

Weirdly, I think I remember it from that. Like, vaguely. That's interesting. Okay. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So sometimes on Reddit, people be like, where have I heard this? And I'm like, I don't know. Where have I heard it? So I feel like. And someone always finds out so well there.

[Christine]

So in case you're wondering, Valerie Mansion has been covered on 437, the Philly Live show in 2018, and in our first book.

[Em]

Wow. Yeah, wow. It's gotten a lot of press, unlike Chronicle. You know what? I mean.

[Christine]

In the end.

[Em]

The end. Okay, I'm gonna pee.

[Christine]

I'm gonna get a pillow for my butt. Because we're still doing the no cushions test, right? And so far it's working. He has a. I like how you.

[Em]

You're not allowed to. You're like, I get a cushion. You don't.

[Christine]

I needed an flt halfway through. I was like, I'll feel comfortable.

[Em]

I'll get ready. Fun little tree. A little cushion for your. Cushion for your what? Bye.

[Christine]

Tushin. Tushin.

[Em]

Before I tush it. I can't say before I say bosom.

[Christine]

I should probably go PE Cushion for a kush for your tush. Yeah.

[Em]

Kush for your tush. That's the one. All right, break.

[Christine]

Hello. Did you enjoy that section of the story I just interrupted? Great. I have some important news, though. I just had the best nap of my life, and you want to know what? I did it on a Helix mattress. And we talk about Helix mattress all the time. I know that we're partnered with them, but truly, this mattress does wonders for me. I have struggled forever with back pain. Never have it anymore. In fact, I just tried to take a nap on the couch recently, which used to be my favorite spot to take a nap. Nap doesn't do it anymore. I woke up, I felt weird, and when I hobbled on over to my Helix mattress to finish my nap, woke up feeling great. You know who else loves the Helix mattress? My little dog hankies. He will not sleep in his crate, his dog bed, the couch, the chair, anywhere I make a snuggly warm space for him. He just wants to be on that damn mattress. And I'll tell you, it might be because I'm there. It might be because the mattress is amazing. Maybe it's both. I don't know. You find out for yourself. Go to helixleep.com drink for 27% off site, wide exclusive for listeners of and that's why we drink drink. That's helixsleep.com drink for 27 off site, wide exclusive for listeners of and that's why we drink. Helixsleep.com Drink Yoohoo, summer girlies, gays, and they's to the front, please listen. It's summertime, it's hot out, People are barbecuing. You've got pool parties to go to. You've got concerts to go to. You've got things planned, but you know it doesn't belong in your epic summer plans. Say it with me all at once. Everyone, let's harmonize. Getting burned by your Old wireless bill. And while you're planning all these beach trips and barbecues, your wireless bill should be the last thing holding you back. And that's why we made the switch to Mint Mobile. With plans starting at 15 bucks a month, Mint Mobile gives you premium wireless service on the nation's largest 5G network. The coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. So while your friends are sweating over data overages and surprise charges, you'll be chilling, literally. And financially, we use Mint Mobile. We've used it literally while we're on tour. It's the reason that Christine can use her script on stage. Get your summer savings and shop premium Wireless [e-mail] ATWD that's mintmobile.com ATWD upfront payment for 45 for three month. Five gigabyte plan required, equivalent to 15amonth. New customer offer for first three months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. CMIT Mobile for details. Okay. Pillow. Sorry. Kush for my tush. Yeah, that's better. Okay.

[Em]

What's your shirt? Oh, Fredericksburg.

[Christine]

Fredericksburg, Texas.

[Em]

Wait, that's cool. I didn't know that existed. Did you go there just to, like, see it?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

That's funny.

[Christine]

And it's an oversized.

[Em]

Where did they have the shirt? Like, where did you buy the shirt?

[Christine]

It was like, they. You know what's so sad is that I've always been such a proud Fredericksburg, Virginian.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And I've always known. I've always known there's a Fredericksburg, Texas, because if you go on, like, Google Maps or whatever, it'll always say, oh.

[Em]

Yeah, I see you learn where your other city is. Yeah.

[Christine]

There's one in Iowa, I think, but it's really small. But Virginia and Texas are big.

[Em]

Cincinnati in Iowa, I think.

[Christine]

Oh, cool.

[Em]

Well, it's not cool. It's really lame. Well, the real one, I always thought.

[Christine]

Surely the Virginia one's the best one, because that's where I'm from. But then I went to the Texas one and I was like, wow, they really, like, are very. Killing it with the merch. Yeah. Fredericksburg, Virginia. You can't find any fucking merch. There's no. There's like a shirt.

[Em]

So where do they sell? Like, did they have merch stores? Or was it like.

[Christine]

They had like. Like.

[Em]

Yes.

[Christine]

No, they had like a. In Texas, there was like a Main street full of souvenir shops. Like, they were very proudly like, I have. I was there and I kept buying everything outside Fredericksburg, and I was like, if anyone asks. Yeah.

[Em]

Wow. That's so random.

[Christine]

But I love this one for, like, the irony of it all and if, especially given today, it's like.

[Em]

I mean, it's excellent. The Shrieking Eagle is so good. I actually. We just went to BUC EE's in Kentucky, the Kentucky Bucky's. I bought Leona a shirt that looks like that, and it has, like, Bucky's Summer tour. And then on the back, it has, like, all. It's like, rocks, rock and roll, and it's that faded color. And then on the back, it has all the cities that BUC EE's is in, and it has, like, Kentucky on it.

[Christine]

Should you. You should check that shirt because that might have been made this year. Virginia got its very first Bucky. No way. Okay, so I wonder.

[Em]

Just went, like, two days ago, so it's probably on there.

[Christine]

Yeah. I wonder if you see it. If you see it, let me know.

[Em]

But it looks like that shirt. It has, like, the. Like, it has, like, lightning bolts, and it's like, rock and roll. It's really cute.

[Christine]

So cool.

[Em]

There was, like, a pink one with butterflies, and Sherry was like, like, no, Christine, No. And I was like, okay, here's the rock and roll one. She's like, that's it. Pick that one.

[Christine]

You got a good, good mom in law.

[Em]

She's right.

[Christine]

Also, I think I found the exact treat that makes him a little sleepy for our recordings. He's just like, I tried a new one. I tried a new. Because the one I was giving him, like, it calms him down. This one, I think maybe makes him a little sleepy, but it's called dad Grass, and it's like cbd Bones for dogs. Oh, and it's dad Grass.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And it was like this big, and you have to do it by, like, their weight. And so I only gave them half because I've never. I don't want to, like, do it. I thought it was just gonna, like, kind of make them Zen. Half was enough. Damn. Like, he.

[Em]

He took out high as a kite or what?

[Christine]

No, he's just taking a little nap, but he's like. He's not getting up at all. Like, he seems chill, but he's, like, alert. Like, as I look at him, he'll look over at me, but then he's like, if you don't need me, I'm gonna keep sleeping.

[Em]

I'm just chilling. The other day, I took a weed gummy and took a nap, and it was literally the most exquisite. You know how I love my coffee naps. Where I'll, like, drink coffee, fall asleep. It's only in the morning when I can nap. It's like I fall back asleep, and then I wake up, and I'm like, the coffee's in my veins already, you know? And that's, like, kind of how I feel about the weed thing. It's like, I wake up and I'm like, cool dreams I just had. Like, let's get a snack. You know? It's like. Like the weirdest. I love it. It's highly recommend if you have a day off, preferably.

[Christine]

Well, I'll tell. I'll tell Hank. He's.

[Em]

He's gonna be expecting some munchies later.

[Christine]

I'm telling you. That really worked. He just heard me say his name, and then he got off the chair, and I was like, oh, he's finally coming over here. He just put himself to bed.

[Em]

You're, like, testing the waters there.

[Christine]

I know. Well, anyway, so, dad, grass is a. If you want to sponsor us.

[Em]

I mean, listen, I. Woof, woof. I'm into it.

[Christine]

Okay, Sorry. Now you've got a story, and I'm sure it's going to, one, rock me, and two, absolutely devastate me. Am I right? Am I on the right track? How did you know that, like, 430 of these, you kind of just kind of get a feeling for it.

[Em]

Really? Because this surprises me every week. I'm like, this. I'm covering.

[Christine]

No, I keep waiting for you to, like, do, like, maybe something like, Silly crimes or, like, that's for Live Love.

[Em]

Larceny and all the other shows that are actually, you know.

[Christine]

All right.

[Em]

This one. This show, I feel like I committed to some episode 18 or 19. I was doing Sylvia Lykins. I think it was, like, too late. You know, we've committed.

[Christine]

Just know if you ever feel like doing a. I don't know if you ever feel like doing something because you. You only committed to crime stories. You never defined what type of crime.

[Em]

Just saying, you know, it's a true crime. So. Yeah, I guess. No pressure. Yeah.

[Christine]

I'm just saying, if you ever get really sad, you are welcome to take a silly one.

[Em]

Thank you so much. Good thing. I'm really happy.

[Christine]

Until then, would you mind just rocking my. Please.

[Em]

I'm so glad you asked. I did warn em a little bit. I said, this is like a doozy of a case because this is one that I have heard about for years. It's the Delphi murders. And. And.

[Christine]

Oh, even I've heard about that.

[Em]

Yeah, I feel Like I was gonna. Well, I was gonna ask if you'd heard of it, because it's one of those that I've heard about and knew woefully little about until researching this. So unfortunately. Well, I guess unfortunately there's just this much drama surrounding this case. This is a two parter. It was not going to be a two parter, but as Saoirse was gathering all the. The trial stuff and everything, they were like, oh, God, I didn't realize, like how much there was out there and how much drama and red herrings and all sorts of stuff. So it's a two parter. I. I know I up the last two parter and I apologize profusely. I am assuring you that this time I will be much more responsible about making sure I'm doing the correct notes next week. So I. Trust me to it, hold me to it.

[Christine]

I. I have full faith.

[Em]

Thank you. All right, so it's the year 2017, and I want to also add. I know that we're not. We don't necessarily know when to do like trigger war mornings. This is about two teenage girls. So if. Sure, if that's something. Just to give everybody a heads up about what the topic is. So it's 2017. We've got 13 year old Abigail Williams and 14 year old Liberty German. And their nicknames are Abby and Libby and they are BFFs. Best, best friends. They're 8th graders at Delphi Community Middle School in Delphi, Indiana. And they are inseparable. I'm gonna send you a picture of the two of them. Just to give you an idea.

[Christine]

Just to twist the knife.

[Em]

Yeah. Just to make you feel even shittier. Okay.

[Christine]

And their names were what again?

[Em]

So their names are Abby and Libby.

[Christine]

Abby and Libby. Oh, come on, Christine.

[Em]

I know it's just horrid, but they're.

[Christine]

Such little cutie pies.

[Em]

They're such babies. Every photo I look at, I'm like, they're just cuter in each picture. They're just like, oh, there's just it. Anyway, they were inseparable. They were known as being kind of cheerful, outgoing, kind, spunky. They had like a very, like soul friend kind of relationship, you know, in that way that like little kids do. And Abby herself, she's the one on the right. So with the hat on. She's 13 years old. She was curious, inquisitive, deeply interested in nature and being in the outdoors. She had what they called a little bug box. Box. Do you remember these?

[Christine]

Yeah. Like the box, like the. The Plastic, like, it looked like a cabin with screen doors.

[Em]

Well, it's like a little box.

[Christine]

I think I'm. I think. I think I'm a butterfly box.

[Em]

I knew what you're talking about. Yeah, I. Those are cool too. She had, like, the little box that you put. Say, like a. How about a parapod? You put a parapod in there and then you get like a little magnifying glass on the top and you like.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

And look at it and then let it freeze.

[Christine]

Yeah. And so she would, like, totally collect.

[Em]

Like, lightning bugs or worms or whatever. And my brother had one of those, and we would get little stink bugs and, like, look at them in the. In the little magnifying glass. And so that was the kind of kid she was. She loved being outdoors, hiking, swimming, riding ATVs, camping. And she was also an athlete and musician, which Libby was as well. So both girls played on the school volleyball team. They were both in the band together. Abby, on the right, played the saxophone and was teaching herself the piano and was actually learning the theme of Beauty and the Beast at this time. Fun fact. Which her grandparents said. And it was like, cool, great, awesome. That's makes this all more real and terrible. Both girls, in addition to all these other things, were also talented artists. Abby loved to draw and take photographs. And meanwhile, Libby liked to paint. And she did have a knack for it as someone who's really. Has just butchered this room as far as, like, the painting goes. So Libby lived with her grandparents. Her mom actually lived in Kentucky about 200 miles away. She lived with her grandparents, and she wanted to paint her room purple. And her grandma was like, oh, we don't have time. We don't have time. Like, someday. And she goes, grandma, just let me do it. And her grandma was like, okay. And they. I'm not kidding you. And they zoomed in on the trim, and I'm like, if you zoomed in on the trim of any room in my house, I'd be like, that's disgusting. Christine. You can never touch a paintbrush again. You've made the biggest, biggest godly mess. Like, it. I don't know how, but this. This child was, like, talented at painting an actual room. And I was very impressed, very meticulous. Probably a lot of people are like, that's really not that hard. But to me, to me, it is. Okay, good.

[Christine]

It's hard to read.

[Em]

And so she did it herself. And she had actually, unfortunately just finished painting it and was just so proud of it right before these terrible events took place. So she was a dedicated student as well. Now, I'm. I'm curious if you know what this is. Have you heard of the academic team?

[Christine]

Like, like a decathlon?

[Em]

Is that the same. What is that?

[Christine]

Isn't that like a smart. Like an academic.

[Em]

Oh, maybe. Maybe.

[Christine]

No, wait, like mathletes.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Saoirse was like, I don't know what this is. It looks like some sort of, like, spelling bee adjacent thing. And I'm like, you guys don't have academic bowl like we had. It was. So I talked, texted my brother about it, and he was on. It was called Academic Team, and he was. They called it a team. It was so embarrassing. And they would like. It's like Quiz Bowl. Like, you go and answer questions and compete. It's like. It's like my brother's dream, you know?

[Christine]

Also, I just. I just learned that decathlon is for track and field. Whoops. Never mind.

[Em]

Okay. I was like. I thought that was physical activity. That's why I don't know much about it.

[Christine]

Apparently. I don't know about this Academy World or whatever you're saying.

[Em]

No, no, no. So it's like Quiz Bowl. I don't know. I don't know what people call.

[Christine]

It's like.

[Em]

Yeah, it's like you go and do team sport. It's. They called it a team at my school. I made fun of my brother so much for it. I don't really need to do it again, but you get the idea.

[Christine]

Sure.

[Em]

But. So they're really, you know, smart and active and social kids. And as much as they enjoyed school, Abby and Libby, of course, also love their weekends because they spent the weekends together just exploring. Boring. The weekend of February 10, 2017, was especially exciting because there was no school on Monday. So we are talking long weekend. Abby and Libby had a sleepover on Sunday night, and they excitedly planned a hike for Monday morning. Their destination was a stretch of the Delphi Historic Trails near Monon High Bridge. The bridge today is part of the Monon High Bridge Trail. And the bridge, which is this historic bridge, like, from. I'll tell you the history of in a moment. But nowadays it's been stabilized, it's been repaired. There's new decking. There are, like, steel safety rails on it, and it's even ADA compliant. But in 2017, this was, like, completely a different story. This bridge had been built in 1891 as a railway crossing over Deer Creek, but by 2017, it was 126 years old. And it's this, like, rickety wooden Bridge. And the rotted wood led to these holes 70ft down into the creek. I mean, it's like this treacherous wooden. Feels like survivor, ramshackle bridge. Yeah. Like, you'd. You'd expect to be wearing, like, a harness on this thing because it.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Like, it looks like you're gonna fall into the creek.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And it's pretty dangerous. And the public was not permitted to go on there, but of course, teenagers would go and, like, climb it and walk across it. It. One of the pillars that supported the bridge had been badly damaged, so the entire structure was at risk of falling. Like, that's how dangerous this thing was.

[Christine]

Jesus. Okay, so this thing's like, holding on by a thread.

[Em]

Yes. And considering it was so dangerous, of course, crossing it was dangerous. And then on top of that, when you reach the other side, there's actually no path. You have to go back. Like, you. If you don't know that there's no path at the end, you're basically hitting a dead end.

[Christine]

Your sol. Yeah.

[Em]

Yes. And like. Okay, now do it again the other way. Exactly. And so that's. That's this kind of, like, really spooky spot. Of course, all of these things, as Saoirse put, made it a popular hangout spot for teenagers.

[Christine]

I mean, I would have done the same thing.

[Em]

Right. Like, we all. I probably would not have walked on it, but I would have, like, I.

[Christine]

Would have sat my other said. Yeah.

[Em]

And I don't know. I don't know. It just gives me so much anxiety. And so it's easy to access because you're just on a hiking trail, you just kind of divert. You cut through, and you're at the bridge. Libby especially loved to cross the bridge. She's a very adventurous girl. She's basically afraid of nothing except her sister said needles and things that cause pain, which, like, broke my heart. Her older sister, Kelsey, is the one who gives a few interviews to kind of explain this whole bridge situation. Kelsey herself, the older sister, did not like crossing the bridge. The first time she tried, she was so scared that she crawled across the bridge. It. But Libby was like, I got it, you know, and walked across. She was just fearless. Abby's mother would never have allowed Abby to go on the bridge if she'd asked. But of course, they didn't really specify where they were going. They just said they were going hiking, you know?

[Christine]

Sure. Yeah.

[Em]

To explore. So, you know, kids will be kids. Abby and Libby especially, like to go out and find places to do photo shoots together. And Becky, who's a Grandmother of Libby thought this was a pretty healthy and happy way for kids to spend their time. So she was perfectly happy with them going out there and playing in the woods. And Delphi, the town itself is pretty small. It has a population of just under 3, 000 people and is pretty close knit. But in 2017, there really wasn't much to do. So think like, what, what are they called, Third places. Yeah, it's like there wasn't anything to do with this damn bridge, you know?

[Christine]

It was. Yeah, just.

[Em]

It's just a spot for people to chill. Yeah. And Monday morning they're off school. They had this sleepover the night before, February 13th. They're doing something a little daring. Libby asked her sister Kelsey, her older sister, if she wanted to go hiking with Abby. And her. Normally, Kelsey would have said, sure, but she had work that day and she wanted to see her boyfriend before work. So she said, hey, why don't I drop you two off at the woods for your hike and then later on you'll just meet at the trailhead and our dad will come pick you up. Their dad being this guy named Dan. Eric.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

It was a cold February day, but it was sunny. And they dropped Abby and Libby off. And Kelsey made sure they both had layers, like sweatshirts because she knew it was chilly out and said goodbye and said I love you and then drove away. The girl started on the trail and then diverted to the bridge as planned. Now, how do we know that? Because they were taking pictures on Snapchat.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Em]

This is what happens in modern day true crime. It's really interesting how like the trends change. You know, it's like, like it's not even mod, I could say eight years ago, but to think like, oh, 20 years ago it would be like the digital camera, you know, they plugged it in. Now it's like, oh, Snapchat. And the thing is, of course we know that Snapchats disappear, but a friend had screenshotted them.

[Christine]

Dope.

[Em]

Okay, thank God for that because that's kind of how we knew. So this is, this story is just bonkers. Okay, okay. So friends caught these moments of their hike. Abby and Libby are posting happy photos of their adventure. And like I said, their friend Erica took a screenshot to save a photo Libby posted. And I'm going to send you this picture. It shows Abby walking across the bridge. And it's pretty chilling because it really is like that day, you know, in real time.

[Christine]

Yeah. Oh, that. Is that it. At the same time, though, if I saw this and I was their age. Absolutely. I'm walking across it. Like, I totally see. It's so cool for the Instagram pick or whatever. I mean, this picture right here, like, I could totally see why you would want that posted on Snapchat. It looks. Looks really cool.

[Em]

Yeah, like I would screenshot that too, to be like, damn. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah, I could see, like seniors, like having their, like graduation picks on there or something. Yeah, it's very pretty.

[Em]

The views are beautiful and like the old wood.

[Christine]

It is very eerie though, that this happened the day of.

[Em]

And so a friend, Erica, screenshotted this and was able to turn this in later. Derek was running a little late picking the girls up, so he called Libby to let her know, but she didn't answer. He arrived at the trailhead, he waited, but Abby and Libby weren't there. And he was getting a little nervous because it was not like them to be late. And of course he's calling Libby multiple times, but she's not answering. So it's possible that she had no service in the woods. It's also possible they were lost because apparently Abby's mom, Anna Williams, said that neither girl had a good sense of direction. And if they had gotten turned around and didn't have service, then they may be lost in the woods.

[Christine]

Yeah. Wow.

[Em]

Kelsey, Libby's older sister, got a call that the girls hadn't returned to the trailhead. And so she was like, oh, they probably got lost. She assumed the same thing. So she drove to the park, she hiked to the bridge, but when she crossed it and looked around in that kind of dead end area, there was no sign of Abby or Libby in the woods. Woods on the other side. And that's when she started to worry. I. I was thinking about this too. Like, imagine Kelsey said she's already. That she was so terrified she had to crawl across it the first time she did it. And now she's looking for her little sister and crossing this bridge to find her and she doesn't find her and now she has to go back. I mean, it's just like the. My stomach.

[Christine]

You're totally right.

[Em]

Think about it.

[Christine]

Like the desperation, like willing to do it, but being so scared. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah. And just hoping or not hoping, like, because, you know. Well, we'll get into it. Okay. So Becky, Libby and Kelsey's grandma was worried too. She drove around the area looking for the girls, of course, just trying to call them and find them. And when that doesn't work, she. I like. Smart move. Smart grandma called their cell phone carrier to see if she could ping their location, which I was like, hell, yeah.

[Christine]

That girl watches Criminal Minds.

[Em]

I know. Which is Dateline. Yeah, I know. I was very impressed. I was like, I would not have even even thought of that. But she decided that, you know, as it started to get dark, that they should call the police. Remember, this is February in Indiana, you know?

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

So the girls were reported missing at 5:30pm and this was about 45 minutes before sunset. So we're, like, closing in on the dark.

[Christine]

Yeah. And obviously something's wrong now. Like, there's. It's not even a question.

[Em]

The police are like, oh, they're probably lost. And everyone's like, yeah, you're right. They're probably lost. There's a little edge of, like, anxiety. But after a quick search that they did failed to locate the girls, that's when the police said, we don't see them anywhere. That's when, like, the full panic kind of took over because this isn't normal.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

So officers began canvassing door to door, asking if anyone had seen the girls. And a lot of people who answered the door and heard about this, whether they knew the girls or not, joined the search party. So people were grabbing flashlights and coming out to the woods to help look. The sheriff believed that the girls probably were not in any immediate danger. But they don't have coats, and so no matter what, you know, once the temperatures drop, they're in danger in that way. So everyone's going to the woods with their flashlights. Abby's mom, Anna, is still, like, hoping against hope that the girls had just hiked too far and. And got stuck somewhere. But apparently Libby's grandma Becky told her how afraid Libby was of the dark. And that's sort of when Anna said.

[Christine]

She knew something was bad.

[Em]

Yeah. Because she was like, okay, that means they would have tried to find their way back. Like, they're not just out there playing or whatever.

[Christine]

Yeah. I don't know if this is important either, but, like, don't they have school the next day? And they're, like, good kids. Like, I feel like that's true too.

[Em]

That's true too. Yep, exactly. Libby would never have stayed in the woods past sundown unless there was, like, no other option, and she was. Were very lost. So at this point, like you said, they're basically looking at. Either they're in some. They're lost, which is big trouble, or something else happened, which is, of course, big trouble. Libby and Kelsey, like I said, lived with their grandparents. Their mom lived in Kentucky about 200 miles away. So Kelsey called her mom and said, hey, have you seen Libby? And her mom, Carrie almost laughed, like, of course not. Not, you know, because she's 200 miles away. She's like, why would I have seen Libby? And she goes, she's missing. And of course, the most horrific thing you can hear as a parent. So she gets to work. Planning to come down to join the search. The search continued in the dark. Volunteers trudged over eight miles through Deer Creek. One of the theories was that the girls had fallen off of the bridge, which made some sense, right, with this, like, rotted wood, and it's off limits to the public. But they looked and looked, and they couldn't find evidence of them anywhere in the creek or downstream. Becky said that so much of the town was out looking for the girls that the lights in the woods, there were as many as stars in the sky. She said it looked like the night sky was in the woods around them with all the flashlights. But hours passed, the temperature dropped, and authorities had to make the decision to relieve the volunteer teams because some of them, for example, were firefighters who had to get to work. Work that morning, and they couldn't compromise, you know, their safety and.

[Christine]

Right.

[Em]

It was a tough decision. The girls families begged the authorities not to give up. They had to make that call. But many volunteers still stayed to keep going all through the night. Now, sometime after 2am the police received information that one of the girl's phones pinged a nearby cell tower. They searched the area, but they couldn't find anything. The next morning, the search began again in full force, and the authorities set up a command post to organize the FBI efforts. They brought dive teams, they brought canine units. Professionals were there. Volunteers were there. They were scouring Deer Creek, its banks. They searched trails, ditches, ravines. They searched fallen trees. They searched inside trash cans. They looked everywhere for the phone, for the girls. Kelsey, the older sister, didn't know what to expect. But it's just like, almost. It's like that. How do you explain it? I hate to say dichotomy again, but it's that. That weird paradox of, like, feeling that she goes. I knew she would be in huge trouble. I just kept thinking, she's gonna be in such big trouble, you know? So she's like. Even though I knew she was in danger on some level, part of me was like, oh, my God, she's gonna get in so much trouble, because you're still a kid and you're looking at life as a kid, but I could.

[Christine]

See it being like, oh, look at. If you're thinking that when they come home, they're gonna be yelled at because look at all the people that had to come out and, like, spend on.

[Em]

Yeah, that's how her mind was thinking. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Pat Brown was a deli resident who actually had known Libby's grandfather Mike since high school. And when his wife saw posts by Libby's grandma Becky on Facebook about the missing girls, he called his friend Mike and said, hey, what's going on with your granddaughters? And Mike said, they haven't been found. So this guy, Pat Brown, joins the search. He searches at night. No luck. He calls off work the next morning to search again. Again, he had to leave before lunchtime to pick his daughter up from school because she was feeling sick. So he stopped for a quick bite to eat. As Pat is eating lunch, his friend calls and says searchers had found clothes near the bridge and they needed help searching the area. Someone had discovered a tie dye shirt in the water and a nearby black Nike shoe. And older sister Kelsey had to confirm that, yes, they did belong to her little sister Libby.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. God. Like, why is her shirt off? What's going on?

[Em]

Horrible. Pat returned to the search site and looked specifically in that area. And this was like, they showed it in a documentary I watched on Discovery Plus. There, there's this, like, embankment sort of, and it's really hard to kind of see through all the foliage and the trees and the leaves. And he zoomed in on his cell phone to look closer, almost like binoculars. Like, he zoomed in and he saw what he thought were mannequins.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Em]

In the brush. And of course, quickly realizing that's not what it was, he had to stand five feet away from them while he waited for police to respond. And he said he had to face away because, yeah, it was impossible, he said, to. To process what he was seeing. Just really disturbing. Kelsey recalled in an interview that when she heard that her sister and Abby had been found, she wanted to run across the creek even though she had heard that they had died. She was like, well, that's impossible, you know?

[Christine]

Yeah, you don't. You can't process that.

[Em]

Yeah. How would you even understand that? And so she tried to. Tried to get to them. But one of the searchers present was a woman who had lost her own brother in high school. And she grabbed Kelsey and just held her for a long, long time them to get her through this moment. And that was just a really touching part of the story. Grandma Becky was also there to participate in the search, and someone ran to her and said, they found them. They found them. And this makes me sick. Also, when she heard they'd found her granddaughter, she said, you need to take me to Libby, to the police. And they said, no, we can't, aunt. And she wouldn't understand. She couldn't understand why they wouldn't bring her to them. And that's when she saw a coroner's truck pull up. And that's the moment it kind of hit her like, oh, they're. They've gone.

[Christine]

Yeah. When you say they. They found her, it's like, obviously. Great, I can't wait to go talk to her.

[Em]

The number of people who said they heard they found them and their immediate reaction was, oh, thank God.

[Christine]

Yeah, you know, weren't specific enough. Yeah.

[Em]

Libby's mom, Carrie, heard the news. She was on her way from Kentucky to join the search party. She got a call from her ex husband, Libby's father, Derek, and he told her they found the girls. And she said she had a split second moment of, oh, thank God. But then she just heard silence on the other end of the line. And she knew. News quickly spread. And some people thought, okay, maybe they did fall off the bridge. And that's what happened. But the people who had seen the bodies and been on the scene, it was immediately clear to them that Libby and Abby had been violently murdered. The authorities held a press conference that day during which they confirmed discovery of the two bodies and that there was foul play involved. But at the time, they didn't identify the girl specifically. It wasn't until the next day, when autopsies were performed on both girls, that the police publicly confirmed that the bodies were indeed those of Abby Williams and Libby Germany. And the case was being investigated as a double homicide. And like this blew up the town. I mean, think about finding out two little girls in your town brutally murdered on their day off from school. I mean, it's just unthinkable, especially after.

[Christine]

Already the big hullabaloo of so many people going out to look for. I mean, it's like, it's of course, town wide.

[Em]

Yeah, exactly. Everybody already knows about the case, and now it's just the worst possible news news. So this was considered a very secure and small and safe community. The Indiana State Police immediately jumped in. They released a photo of a man walking on the trail at the time Abby and Libby disappeared. And they said, look out for this man. He is a person of interest. I'm gonna send you the photo.

[Christine]

Okay, so. Okay. So blurry. Is it blurry? Okay.

[Em]

Well, it's just a blurry picture of a guy, and, yeah, you can't really.

[Christine]

See anything about him.

[Em]

He's just hard to see. What you can gather is that he appears to be a Caucasian male wearing blue jeans, a dark blue jacket, brown shirt, tails coming out. His hands are in his pockets. His head is duck downward. You know, he's. He's looking, like, down, away from the camera, and it's blurry, so it's hard to kind of identify him beyond that. But the police refused to say where the picture came from. You know, people are asking, like, okay, what's the source of the picture? And they won't say, which is a little bit odd. Yeah, people just assume this is, like, a trail camera, like maybe somebody's personal trail camera, and they just don't want to give away the name of who it is.

[Christine]

Sure. And it does. I mean, he's on the bridge, right? That. It looks like the bridge.

[Em]

Yeah, he's on the trail or the bridge. It's kind of. They're really similar. So. February 16th, three days since the girls were killed. A tip line was established, and calls began to pour in. Not only were people seeking justice for Abby and Libby, of course, but they also now knew this violent child murderer was in their small area. And so people are trying to get to the bottom of this. On Saturday, February 18, a public viewing service was held in the gym at Delphi Community High School. And one woman, like, being kind of a citizen sleuth, which apparently became kind of a problem for the investigation. A lot of people were muddying the water, so to speak.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

This one person took photos of the crowd, suspecting that the murderer might make an appearance, you know, like revisit or come to the funeral or the viewing. And so she thought, like, maybe she'll catch their suspicious behavior and intentions or whatever. What happened is she shared the photos with a few people, and somebody posted them to Facebook without her knowledge. And unfortunately, when you zoom in on some of the photos, you can see Libby in her casket in the background.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

I know.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Bad.

[Em]

Yeah. And so this just came off as this tremendous violation. This went public. There was public outrage about the photos being posted. Even taken in the first place. There were feuds among investigative content creators on YouTube, Facebook. Like, people were arguing over the rights of, you know, posting and trying to get to the bottom of a mystery. Citizen detective, that kind of thing. It. It became so such an intense discourse that it basically left Abby and Libby behind in the conversation. Right. Like, it almost took away from.

[Christine]

Yeah, like what the point of all this is.

[Em]

Yeah. Details about how exactly Libby and Abby had been killed had not been released. So people started speculating wildly, like, this case is just going off the rails in the media. People were saying, oh, they, they. They were human trafficked, they were pregnant. They were part of a drug taken by a drug cartel. Just stuff that had no basis. Some people who even knew the girls were. Were claiming online that they had, like, gruesome information to share. I mean, people were just being disgusting. The girls families fought to maintain their privacy, but they still had to be in the public eye enough to keep the case going. So it's that weird line you have to walk of, like, wanting people to help, but, like, not too much, you know, not that way. Like, maybe be respectful about it. Meanwhile, the police had named the man in the photo an official suspect in the case. Case. And they revealed where the photo had come from. It had come from Libby's phone.

[Christine]

Why wouldn't they tell people that?

[Em]

Well, they didn't want people to know they'd found her phone.

[Christine]

Oh, oh, oh, okay. Yeah.

[Em]

So that was a huge shock because people were like, wait, do you know what that means? She took a photo of her potential killer.

[Christine]

I mean, ding, ding, ding.

[Em]

Wow. She had bravely recorded a video of this person on her phone before she was killed. Police had discovered the video when they recovered her phone in the woods. And the image that you see was actually a still taken from a video and.

[Christine]

Oh, that's why it's so blurry. Okay.

[Em]

Yes. And the video itself, and it was also 2017, and I don't know what kind of phone she had, but there was also, in other words, audio then, because she had been filming and she.

[Christine]

Oh, no.

[Em]

Presumably put the phone in her pocket and kept it recording. It's like she's a gene, like, for being good for her. And in. In. In the biggest fear of your life, like, survival mode. And you think to record the person who's a threat, I mean, it's just amazing.

[Christine]

You didn't hear the audio, did you? You.

[Em]

You're got. You're about to hear it, my friend. Well, not all of it.

[Christine]

Just a little. Oh, my God.

[Em]

We'll get there.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay.

[Em]

The audio on the phone revealed the man's voice. He spoke in the video, and the police released a very short audio clip. It was difficult to understand at first, but they stabilized the video. They. They kind of worked on the audio. Enhance. Enhance, you know, from, like, coronal lines. And they Believed they finally figured out what he was saying. Saying. So I'm gonna send you this YouTube link. Hold on.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

It sounds, you know what it sounds like? It literally sounds like something out of a spirit box. Like, it sounds like. It's like that through the, like static, like you're trying to understand what he's saying.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

So if you open this and you go to. I, I know it's silly, but time code, two seconds in. Okay. If you're able to do that, sure.

[Christine]

Oh, I couldn't even hear anything on that first word. Hang on. Now let me try again.

[Em]

Can you understand it?

[Christine]

I, I think I heard. Let me try, Let me play it a third time. Hang on. I, I hear like downhill. Guys.

[Em]

He's saying, down the hill.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And so this is what they released and everyone's trying to figure out what in the heck is going on. They have this picture of this guy and they hear down the hill. And everyone's kind of unclear on what the context is, but they're suspecting that he was directing Abby and Libby down the hill to where he would eventually kill them. The public was urged to look at this man, listen to the recording, and surely somebody would be be able to recognize this guy even from such a short clip. He became known as Bridge Guy because they didn't know who he was. And the case became the Delphi murders. Days later, a $41,000 reward was offered for information leading to an arrest. And then tips just over the weeks began flowing in by thousands. The man on the bridge, like we said, is so like, it's just vague. You know, he could be kind of any white dude in Indiana. It's hard to see the outfit, stature and voice are so average that like people were throwing in tips, but they just didn't match anybody or they didn't actually add up to anything. Yeah, people were making so many tips about random people and neighbors and co workers and relatives that the sheriff himself got got like put on the list three different times. He's like, oh, really? He was pissed off at me and just kept calling in the tip that I did it. Like, people were like, just calling in people. They were like, that guy looks like some white guy I know, you know? And yeah, it's just impossible to tell his age. It's just like really difficult to determine who it is. So Libby's grandpa kept the audio recording of Bridge Guy on his phone and he listened to it over and over again. It was like torture because he wanted to figure out who it was. But like, you Listen to it and you're like, maybe I could figure out who it is. But it's three words and you're trying to figure it out and look at the picture and it's too blurry. Yeah, it just sounds maddening, honestly. In March, investigators homed in on 77 year old Ron Logan, who actually owned the property where the two girls were discovered. Investigators realized that he had lied about his alibi on the day of their murders and he was investigated very closely. A woman who had dated him for six years actually spoke to the FBI and said he was physically violent and that she believed he was capable of murder. So they really thought they had their guy guy. But despite his violent history and lying about his whereabouts, there would just, there was nothing to link him to these murders. And he did actually go to prison, but for unrelated charges.

[Christine]

So, okay, there.

[Em]

So there's that. Then months just passed with no new information. The reward for information leading to an arrest grew past $200,000. In July, six months after Abby and Libby were killed, the police held a press conference and released a sketch of the killer. And this was huge, especially for the family because they finally had a face to put out there and to look for out in public. And I'm going to send you a picture of this first sketch.

[Christine]

Sure. Okay. I feel bad. I'm not commentating more.

[Em]

No, I, I already. I know and I feel like I set it up by saying I have such a long story and kind of. I don't want to make it seem like you're.

[Christine]

That's what they would sketch him as. That's not what I thought was going to come out about.

[Em]

Hold that thought. Hold that thought.

[Christine]

Oakley dokely.

[Em]

Oakley dokely. So they are looking at this picture. It's this kind of. How would you describe this guy? He looks like he's like, has a bindle and like.

[Christine]

Yeah, he's got like a British cap on.

[Em]

Gruffy with a news cap or whatever.

[Christine]

He's got the facial hair. I just can't stand where it's like, it's like it's a circle around your chin.

[Em]

It looks like you just like went apple Bob something.

[Christine]

Yeah, it looks like you just like shoved your face into some cake and now like the frosting is just like exactly like if you're gonna have a beer, commit.

[Em]

You know what? I think I actually so agree with you. I never thought about it, but I also don't like that circle. It looks.

[Christine]

I can't stand it. I can't. What are you trying to Prove what's happening.

[Em]

Trying to prove that you went apple bobbing. Brag.

[Christine]

I. I. Like, I don't know. But also. You know what's so weird? I don't. Not to put anyone on blast here, but. But the. From the blurry picture you showed me, it looks like Allison's brother.

[Em]

Let me see. Oh, yeah, I could see that.

[Christine]

I would think that more so.

[Em]

I think I take any white dude. You know what I mean? It's like, you'd be like, I guess I'll. I'll just, like, point at this guy and point at that guy to see.

[Christine]

Yeah. Anyway, this is not what I was picturing.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. So they get this picture, and of course, the family is like, like, okay, we're gonna take this and run with it. The sketch went far and wide. Deli locals and strangers were comparing it to everybody they knew. You know, like, listening to the voice, looking at the picture. Mike said in an interview that they mailed copies to every sheriff's office in the United States. Like, they wanted this picture plastered everywhere. But of course, it, like, could match a whole number of people. And so none of the tips led anywhere. Becky Libby's grandma, became obsessed with a sketch. She said she would just stare at people out and about in public, trying to determine whether she was looking at her granddaughter's killer. And it's like, of course I would. Yeah. Social norms go out the window if you're in this kind of a situation, you know?

[Christine]

No. And I wonder if everyone in town was like, I get it. You can stare at me a little if you want.

[Em]

So I hope there's a little grace there, because. Oof. I cannot even imagine. So no tips led to any concrete leads, and two years passed past. Fast forward to April 2019. Investigators hold another press conference, and this time, they release more footage from Libby's phone. It's a short clip of bridge guy walking.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Em]

Hoping that someone might recognize his mannerisms. And it's. It's hard to tell, too, because he's walking on this, like, rotted bridge. So it's like he might be stepping differently, but they released. I mean, it really is like, two seconds of video footage of him walking. And basically said, it's probably not even worth sending you, frankly, because it really is that image you saw. But just, like, two steps.

[Christine]

Sure.

[Em]

So they. They released that and said, hey, if you recognize the way this man walks, his gait, the way his hands are in his pockets, maybe the shirt tails out, like, anything about this guy, his.

[Christine]

Hat, like, please Please call it dumbass hat. Please.

[Em]

Dumb ass hat. So investigators also shocked the families, the girls families. And honestly, everyone at this press conference referenced by, you know, those. I forget they said the name of it. It's like an easel, but they have like a, a cover over it that they pull off. Oh, sort of like the king. King Charles, when he pulled that thing off and it became that green screen meme. So they have one of those like easel poster boards and it's covered. And so everyone in the. Oh, sorry. And so everyone in the audience is like, oh, my God, what could be under that board? You know, like the families don't even know. And so they're sitting there like, like kind of on the edge of their seat and they pull this cover off and it's a new sketch.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

And they say, okay, basically, like, forget the last sketch. This is the real sketch.

[Christine]

They got rid of his little newsies Oi mista cap.

[Em]

They sure did.

[Christine]

Yeah. Now he's got Cory Matthews hair.

[Em]

He literally looks like Corey Matthews. You're 100% right.

[Christine]

The top of his forehead and up is just like not having a good day with these sketches. He looks. I don't mean this like in a compliment way, but he. The sketch is like the artist's attempt. It looks like almost like a statue. The second one, yeah, it looks a little like there's not. I feel like the first one, even though it's not what I expected, there was at least a lot of detail where it looked like someone I might walk past. But this person seems like really vague and like a lot of like, I.

[Em]

Think the second one looks more like a sketch, like a police sketch. I feel like the first one art like a portrait of somebody, you know, which, I mean, I'm sure different artists have style, like different sketch artists have styles. But let's also talk about how they.

[Christine]

Are completely different people.

[Em]

Like, okay, so there's that first.

[Christine]

And the first one's like a 50 year old man and this one's like in his 20s. Sorry.

[Em]

Nailed it. That's exactly the immediate uproar was what the. We've sent that first picture to every sheriff's office in, in the country.

[Christine]

Yeah, I feel like you clearly sent me the wrong picture.

[Em]

Like two years later, you're like, just kidding. It's this guy. And so at first they're pissed off. They're like, they feel really defeated. Basically, they're like, damn it. Like, it feels sort of like we got blindsided by this and we've gone. Becky called It. A punch in the gut, basically. She said, we've done so much work getting this one, publicizing this one picture on the news everywhere.

[Christine]

Also, so sorry to the man that. That guy was like, that poor man.

[Em]

If he exists on.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

So despite what felt like a tremendous setback, more tips started flowing in. Right. Because it's a new picture, and more people are now taking different interest. Different people are looking at it. And although they were upset at first, Becky and Mike, Libby's grandparents, eventually noticed that even though they looked a bit different, if you stack the photos on top of each other, they actually look remarkably alike. No, I know. Yes, they do. I. Hold on. Let me find a picture, because I. Oh, I should have taken a.

[Christine]

It's in the eyes.

[Em]

I tried to take a screenshot, and then it was like, you can't do this because this is Discovery Plus. And I was like, sorry, the eyes.

[Christine]

Are way too different. They're com. They look like completely different people separately. Oh, what. What is going on? I feel like. I don't know.

[Em]

I don't know.

[Christine]

This feels like that. That. That man and the. The spirals.

[Em]

The what?

[Christine]

Okay, never mind. I don't even know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

That guy from our class in fifth grade.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Everyone else got it too. Whatever.

[Em]

Yeah, I promise they did. Yeah. No, apparently, like, I did watch them layer them, because I went, that's a totally different guy. And it does look like a totally different guy. But if you do layer them, like you said, the eyes are almost identical.

[Christine]

Which is wild. Co. Separately, they look.

[Em]

But look at their mouths.

[Christine]

So different. Yeah, I could see it in the. No, I guess. Yeah, I guess.

[Em]

And then the kind of. If you take the head or the hat off, it's like the face shape is. Even if you take the.

[Christine]

We have to put the newsy hat back on him for me to really see it and, like, give him that stupid circle beard. Yeah, he just looks too different because, like, they didn't style him at all.

[Em]

In the next totally different style of picture. Yeah, the whole thing's a little bit convoluted. And so, you know, they were trying to figure out, like, maybe. Maybe this is just, like, somebody got mixed up and it's the same person, essentially. The sketch, again, was vague enough to match many people, and police said they were looking for a suspect. This is gonna basically check off exactly what you were saying anywhere between the ages of 18 and 40.

[Christine]

Like, he's like. It's like it's night and day. This is not the Same person. Like, who did the first person get fired? Like what?

[Em]

They basically said the killer could have been as young as 16 at the time of the murders or like in 40s. So it's like the disparity is outrageous because it's like, how do you even.

[Christine]

I also do call bullshit on that because in the picture or the video of him, that's not a 16 year old man. That guy's a dad. Bod.

[Em]

Let me look.

[Christine]

He's like a. He looks like some. He looks like he's at in his 30s, 30s, or 40s. 30s.

[Em]

No, he's old. Yeah, he's older.

[Christine]

He looks like a dad. He's literally wearing a windbreaker in boots. He's not 16. He's. I like this dad.

[Em]

This comment on here. It looks to me like the person in this video has a goatee and a mustache. Never in my wildest dreams would have come up with that sketch based on what I see in the video. Yeah, but the sketch was from eyewitness accounts, not from the video. So this is why there's this kind of disparity. So people start making accusations now that they have this new picture, they have this new age range. Kelsey, her classmates are calling her and saying, hey. People are saying, like, I did this. I promise you, I didn't kill your sister. Oh, my God, I believe you. But like, I'm glad the police check just in case, you know. And so none of these people end up being the person at the center of it. So people started anonymously reporting neighbors that they had, like, disagreements with. And remember I mentioned the sheriff got mentioned three times. Like random men they would just. Just like take a picture of and be like, what about that guy? You know, so it's like they're getting flooded with. With calls of people probably trying to do the right thing, but it just muddied the water. Mainstream media continued to cover alleged breaks in the case. It was like anytime there was any sort of breadcrumb, they kind of went full throttle with it. Reporters were releasing photos and full names of people, like, doxing people saying they were suspects when they were not. You know, just like basically taking the story and running a little too far with it. Meanwhile, the media online is just tearing this apart. Like armchair detectives. People on Reddit. People are, like, looking at every little bit of a detail. You know, you have these sketches, like, this is perfect fodder for, you know, online sleuthing, and it's getting kind of out of control. People criticized investigators, though, for not releasing more. They were like, if you have her phone.

[Christine]

Hello?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And they began to suspect that perhaps investigators had no information, and maybe that's why they weren't sharing it. There were now accusations that perhaps the crime scene was mishandled, the evidence had been destroyed. Like, there were just so many rumors about why this was going nowhere or. Or what they thought was going nowhere. But investigators maintained they needed to keep most of the details confidential because they wanted whoever did it to prove that they knew information that the public doesn't know. Like, they wanted to keep some information held back to prove that they had the right guy when. When and if they found him. For example, if they were questioning a suspect and he provided details of the murder that only the police knew, of course, then. Then they would know that's the right guy. So police continue to encourage people to look at the photos and sketches of Bridge Guy, listen to his voice. This is, of course, torturing the family, listening over and over again, looking at everybody they pass in the street. And now they have two sketches to try and find out in the wild. And they don't even have access to, like, the phone and all that, which must be so hard. Like, knowing your daughter filmed all this, and you don't get more than three seconds, which, I mean, frankly, is probably for the best, depending on what's on there. There.

[Christine]

Yeah, you don't want to hear the sounds of something.

[Em]

You don't want to just give that out to anybody. Everybody. Especially people close to her. But it must be, like, such a weird feeling to not have access to that. It would be years after, after this second sketch, that Libby's and Abby's families got any more answers. And that is where we will start part two next.

[Christine]

Oh, girl, please, with this. Okay. I forgot it was gonna be a.

[Em]

It's a doozy, my friend. Friend. It's doozy. And I want to also thank down the Hill podcast because I didn't want to mention it up top. I didn't want to prime you for the audio of down the Hill, but there's a podcast called down the Hill that was then turned into this documentary, and they're just like, the. As far as I'm concerned, the foremost. You know.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Journalist experts on this case. So if you want, like, a deep dive, definitely check them out, too.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

Happy Friday the 13th. We're all cursed.

[Christine]

I know. I forgot that we were recording on Friday the 13th. I should have done something Halloweeny. By the way, we're more than. We're less than 100 days to Halloween. I think Now. Very exciting.

[Em]

I'm so excited.

[Christine]

Good story, Christine. Good delivery. Good everything on your end. Horrible truth. That's all I got. What are we gonna. What are we gonna talk about?

[Em]

I don't know. We have not thought about a Yappy Hour. I saw some people also trying to figure out how the page. I mean, maybe they're not listening anymore at this point in the episode. But quick note about Patreon too. People have said like, oh, I want to listen to the Yappy Hour, but I don't want to go into the Patreon app to listen to it. You do not have to. You can literally copy the RSS feed into I believe Spotify or any podcast app you listen on. I'm pretty sure, pretty confident about that. If I'm wrong, forgive me, but I'm pretty sure if you are a patron, because some people were saying I'm a patron, but like, I don't want to listen to the Yappy Hour. Through Patreon, you can get the RSS feed and plug that in. And there are instructions for that that I believe Megan has posted. So if that's somebody or if you're somebody who's like, eh, I don't want to go through the trouble of going on Patreon. You can actually. And now, especially with the Apple subscriptions, you can have that directly linked to your. To your account. So what are we going to talk about? Wait, didn't we have something. Didn't I bookmark something?

[Christine]

I don't know.

[Em]

It's like the never ending nonsense where I'm like, we won't forget.

[Christine]

I know Megan has a. Has a list.

[Em]

Wait, remember we were doing the. The. The. The First Ladies.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Breakfast or favorite foods? Yeah, we were dirty berries from outside.

[Christine]

We were gonna do something. Some. Some add on to that where we Desserts? I don't know.

[Em]

No, it felt right.

[Christine]

Maybe it's like last meals. I don't know.

[Em]

Yeah, we could go.

[Christine]

We could go look up the stupid. We haven't talked about them in years. I don't think is like the people in True Crime what their last meals were.

[Em]

Oh, yeah, let's do that. Let's do. Let's do a True crime and we'll talk about some famous last meals. We haven't done that. You're right. In like years.

[Christine]

Yay. Okay, great. Well, I'm excited to talk about food.

[Em]

Me too.

[Christine]

And that's why we drink.

[Em]

Hi, I'm Cassidy. And I'm Amanda. And we're the hosts of Drinking the Kool Aid, a comedy podcast dedicated to the mysterious. Tune in every week while we cover two chilling tales about everything from cults to aliens to the paranormal. Normal. All with a sense of humor. So grab a drink and tune in to drinking the Kool Aid wherever you get your podcasts.