E445 Fish Beneficiaries and Croissant Redemption Societies

Summary

And That's Why We Drink

Episode 445: Fish Beneficiaries and Croissant Redemption Societies

Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Eva Schulz
Release Date: August 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

In classic “And That’s Why We Drink” fashion, Christine and Eva mix the chilling with the chuckle-worthy in this episode. They kick things off with a candid discussion about donations to unexpected causes, algorithmic creepiness, and the quirks of adulting, before diving into their signature paranormal and true crime tales. This week, Eva brings us a history-laden, deeply unsettling account of Melbourne’s Old Jail—the hauntings, history, and horrors that make it one of Australia’s most infamous prisons. Christine then covers the startling and tragic case of Jade Jenks and Tom Merriman, a murder entwined with betrayal, trauma, and a deeply disturbing motive.

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Intro, Banter & Notable Segments

Fish Fears, Algorithms & Taking Action

• Eva recounts a personal quest to support a cause outside her comfort zone—donating to the first Black-owned aquarium in the world, despite her deep-seated fear of fish, after discovering “Underwater with Aaron” on TikTok.
  • “The irony is that [Aaron] said something like, if you donate, you can have free entry for life. And I was like—girl, I'm not going.” – Eva (07:14)
• Eva and Christine muse about technology’s uncanny ability to “predict” needs and desires:
  • “Is it chicken or the egg? Does TikTok just know you so well that it sort of knew it before you realized?” – Christine (04:13)
  • Debate about psychics vs. algorithms, with Christine lauding Eva’s “outdated psychic” powers and referencing their classic ESP game (06:40).

Donating to the "Least Likely" Cause

• Conversation on supporting communities or causes one doesn’t necessarily relate to.
  • Eva: “Now the reason why I drink is because…I did not see my money going to my worst enemy, my mortal enemy: Fish.” (09:41)
  • Christine: “So you asked yourself, what do I not want to do…and then it appeared.” (08:27)

Why We Drink: Adulting, Housework, and Little Treats

• The hosts get real about the overwhelming tide of household management.
  • Christine laments: “I'm constantly drowning. Stomach viruses, laundry, vet appointments…That's why I drink” (16:36)
  • Eva offers practical wisdom about consolidating chores to free up mental space.
  • Both hosts celebrate the power of capitalism’s “fun little treats”:
    • “I fully believe in ‘FLT’ culture. In a capitalist society, you need a fun little treat now and then. And sometimes that’s every couple hours!” – Eva (19:45)
• Brief detour into collectible toys and the emotional comfort of “Labubus.”

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Main Story 1: The Paranormal History of Old Melbourne Jail (Eva)

[25:31–75:36]

Historical Background

• Established: 1839 (predates state of Victoria)
• Notoriety: Known for its severe conditions and as the site of 133 executions (incl. infamous Ned Kelly).
  • “It was the first jail in Victoria, although I think Victoria could say we’re the first Victoria in the jail.” – Eva (26:11)
• Prisoners: All demographics—criminals, vagrants, people with mental illness, children as young as THREE years old.
  • “It ranged from serial killers to ten-year-olds.” (27:29)

Day-to-Day Horror

• Building: Made of blue stone.
• Living conditions: Overcrowded, unsanitary, no temperature regulation, frequent corporal punishment (up to 50 lashings with a cat o’ nine tails, plus salt), use of sensory deprivation (thick-walled, windowless isolation cells), and hoods to enforce silence.
  • “Imagine you’re locked up for five years and you can’t see another person’s face.” – Eva (38:10)
• Withdrawal 'detox' protocol:
  • “They would get doused with cold water, sewn into a blanket, left outside with a hood over their face, and then covered with leeches.” (36:18)
• Prisoners ascended in privilege by floors:
  • Basement/first floor: solitary confinement, worst conditions
  • Second floor: modest improvements
  • Third (top) floor: minor crimes, shared cells, but also site of the gallows

Executions & Infamous Inmates

• Death Law: Executed by hanging; bodies buried on jail grounds.
• Hangmen: Usually disguised inmates, able to control fate of the executed.
  • “If they didn’t like you…they could control how slow or swift you’d die.” (44:01)
• Elizabeth Scott: First woman executed in Victoria—possibly innocent (45:30).
• Frederick Bailey Deeming: Suspected by some to have been Jack the Ripper (46:00).
• Ned Kelly (Australia’s “Robin Hood”):
  • Arrested after a shoot-out, famously wore hand-forged “Iron Man” armor.
  • Iconic last words, possibly: “Such is life.” (51:17)
  • His death mask and legend are at the center of the museum’s displays.

Phrenology, Death Masks, and Pseudoscience

• Death masks taken of executed inmates for display and (faux) scientific study.
  • Used for phrenology: “Doctors could feel the bumps and decide if you were more or less gifted…” (54:08)
  • Eva notes the racist, eugenic motivations behind much of phrenology.

The Jail’s Decline and Haunting Aftermath

• Officially closed 1920s; became a museum in the 1970s. Death masks, armor, and “haunted” artifacts remain on display.

Hauntings & Paranormal Activity

• Most Common Experiences:
  • Sounds: doors slamming, footsteps, jangling keys, crying and pleading voices.
  • Residual emotions: sorrow, grief, nausea; people fainting.
  • Apparitions: shadow figures, guards in long coats, Lady in Blue.
  • The Gallows: worst energy—people experience pressure, shortness of breath, or urges to jump.
    • “Some have said an apparition of a guard near the gallows whispers to jump.” (66:20)
  • Shadowy outlines with “rotting skin” on skeletons; cell doors mysteriously locking.
• Cell 17: The hotspot for chilling activity: disembodied voices, cold spots, feelings of choking, men driven out, women trapped in, dogs refusing to enter. (73:44)
  • “Highly trained dogs start acting erratically, refuse to enter, and have to be taken outside to calm down.” (73:44)
• Take-home hauntings: Many visitors report nightmares, feeling watched, and even seeing shadows at home after visiting.

“If you’d like this experience…head on over to the Old Melbourne Jail.” – Eva (76:42)

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• “Bone-chilling cold to it.” – Eva (74:02)
• “Some people have felt something using force on them—but instead of shoving, it’s pulling them into rooms.” – Eva (70:33)
• Christine, expressing dread: “I don’t think I could be ever talked into going there…It’s the absorbing the emotions. That’s really hard for me.” (68:00)
• On being physically followed home by ghosts (Queen Mary experience): “The scariest ghost hunt…you could feel someone sitting in the car with you.” (77:07)

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Main Story 2: The Murder of Tom Merriman by Jade Jenks (Christine)

[82:09–127:07]

The Crime

• January 1, 2021:
  • Adam Cipliak calls police, reports that friend Jade Jenks allegedly confessed to killing her stepfather, Tom Merriman, 64.
  • Police discover Tom’s body hidden under trash in his driveway, wrapped in a blanket and wearing a hospital bracelet.
  • Jade, 36, cared for and lived next to Tom, her ex-stepfather. Their relationship was famously close; she called him “Dad,” even after the divorce from her mother.
• First hints of suspicion: Jade claimed not to have seen Tom, was pulled over by police leaving her driveway (85:35).

The Investigation

• Autopsy: Ruled death was from an overdose of Ambien (zolpidem)—no signs of force, contrary to Adam’s claim Jade confessed to strangling Tom.
• Conflicting stories:
  • Jade: Claims Tom accidentally OD’d; she panicked, covered his body, and sought help only to move him inside and “stage” a natural death.
  • Adam: Says Jade told him she’d drugged and then strangled Tom, asking Adam to help move the body.

The Discovery & The Motive

• The dark secret:
  • Jade discovers hundreds of nude photos of herself, some taken as a minor, on Tom’s computer—including as his screensaver. She texts friends about being horrified, unable to “even touch her own skin,” and terrified for what would happen when he came home. (98:48)
    • “She called him dad. And this is what he did to her.” (122:28)
  • Reaches out to a security guard/fixer, Alan, for protection when confronting Tom.
• Disturbing texts uncovered (by prosecution):
  • “I just dosed the hell out of him.” (107:15)
  • “Stopping at Dixieland to stall.” (109:17)
  • “It’s gonna be like Weekend at Bernie’s.” (110:32)
  • DNA evidence: Only Jade’s DNA on Ambien pack, not Tom’s.

The Trial

• Jade claims her texts are “poor phrasing,” denies premeditation, and says she only wanted to get Tom out of her life (not kill him).
• Multiple men testify to being asked to help or to commit violence; all declined.
• Jade attempts to use trauma and abuse history as context but does not present it as a motive since she denied intent to kill.
  • “It’s hard to come by someone you just feel you can trust completely. And I did feel that way.” – Jade, tearfully (104:14)
• Prosecutors emphasize premeditation: purchasing gloves, towels, nylon cord, and spray paint; failed attempts to move the body or get help; damning text trail.
• Defense stresses trauma, argues the death was accidental and Jade’s panic led to irrational choices, not murder.

The Verdict

• Jury deliberates for only 30 minutes—convicts Jade Jenks of first-degree murder (119:10).
  • “When the verdict was announced, Jade turned to her lawyer and you could see her go, ‘I don’t understand.’” (120:24)
• Sentenced to 25 years to life.
• Remains in prison; attorney plans an appeal.

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• Christine on Jade’s trauma:
  • “Just the violation is sickening. It’s like, I get acid in my throat.” (99:54)
• Eva’s reflection:
  • “I always wonder, what would it take for me to snap?” (124:04)
• On hindsight and irrationality after trauma:
  • “I think that’s human instinct—to be like, what were you thinking? That’s so obvious. But…maybe you’re so in shock, your brain can’t even keep up.” – Christine (114:43)
  • “It didn’t help heal her trauma. Right? It’s just adding to it.” (126:56)
• Eva on moral gray space:
  • “Sometimes there’s just not a side. You don’t have to pick a side every time.” (127:07)

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Final Thoughts & Episode Close

• The hosts candidly acknowledge the darkness of this episode but encourage listeners to find support through community (and, yes, “fun little treats”).
  • “And that’s why we drink—when that’s why we bum you out every week.” – Christine (128:13)
• Christine teases upcoming tour stops, and both remind listeners about Patreon and video/full content on YouTube.
• Final self-aware nod to the show’s growing reputation for serving up “BYOB – Bum You Out Broadcasts.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Algorithmic destiny, fish charity banter: 02:03–11:03
• Why We Drink (real-life overwhelm & home hacks): 12:48–23:00
• Old Melbourne Jail haunted history (Eva): 25:31–75:36
• Jade Jenks & Tom Merriman true crime story (Christine): 82:09–127:07
• Dark humor/episode close: 128:12–129:37

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode brings classic “And That’s Why We Drink”—unexpected humor about the strange stuff of daily life, the limits of empathy, and haunting tales that connect the psychological and supernatural. The Melbourne Jail segment is especially harrowing, with a detailed history and a psychically toxic legacy that frankly freaked out both hosts. Christine’s true crime story offers a bleak look at the connections between trauma and violence, set against the backdrop of an unfortunate stack of digital evidence and a disturbing family betrayal.

If you enjoy eerie tales with depth, dark humor, and candid conversation about odd feelings—this episode is a must-listen. Just maybe keep the lights on.

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Transcript

[Christine]

Buying a car in Carvana was so easy, I was able to finance it through them.

[Eva]

I just. Whoa, wait, you mean finance?

[Christine]

Yeah, finance. Got pre qualified for a Carvana auto loan, entered my terms and shot from thousands of great car options, all within my budget. That's cool. But financing through Carvana was so easy. Financed, done, and I get to pick up my car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow. Financed, right? That's what they said. You can spend time trying to pronounce financing, or you can actually finance and buy your car Today on Carvana financing, subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply.

[Eva]

I need a job.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. Do I? What?

[Eva]

I don't know.

[Christine]

I was like, oh, what a time to tell me right when we're about to start a ZipRecruiter ad. Oh, I see.

[Eva]

Oh, yeah. I. I need a job. Here's the other thing, though. I'm also. I'm looking for someone to hire in either circumstance. I've got Zip Recruiter. It is there for me.

[Christine]

We really are thankful for Zip Recruiter. We've had obviously, like stellar experience with them. I mean, how do you think we found eva? You've heard the story a million times, but within a day, we posted and found Eva and it was that easy. It can be overwhelming to have too many candidates to sort through, but you're in luck. Zip Recruiter now gives you the power to proactively find and connect with the best ones quickly. They do that through their innovative resume database. And right now you can try it for [e-mail] Drink ZipRecruiter's resume database uses.

[Eva]

Advanced filtering to quickly hone in on the top candidates for your role. Skip the candidate overload and instead streamline your hiring with ZipRecruiter. See why 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. That's exactly what happened with us. And we could not be more grateful to them.

[Christine]

Just go to this exclusive web address, ziprecruiter.com drink right now to try it for free again. That's ziprecruiter.com drink ziprecruiter. Let's smartest way to hire.

[Eva]

There was a. An aquarium that I follow on TikTok, which like I.

[Christine]

That is the most you sentence.

[Eva]

I know. Well, I. There is a. I was having this moment with myself where I was like, I should do something that like, for. It was kind of the feeling of like, I should do something that scares me. But I Should do something for something I. For a cause I don't usually give a shit about.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Eva]

And I don't really care for aquariums quite a lot because I'm terrified of fish. And then. And I was like, you know, what if something about fish need my help, you know, And I. It runs into me. Well, the neck. The very first TikTok I opened up and after that was this woman trying to open an aquarium and she was like, oh, if you could donate, that would be great. And it would be the first ever black owned aquarium in the world.

[Christine]

So first of all, this is. First of all, let's just step back. First of all, that's fucking awesome. Do you know the name of it? Sorry, I don't mean to put you on spot.

[Eva]

Maybe I can. I can't. I know that the person's name is under Underwater with Aaron.

[Christine]

Oh, are we even recording? I mean, I know we're recording, but we're on air, right? Or not.

[Eva]

Sure.

[Christine]

We didn't say go. I guess we never say go.

[Eva]

No, I guess people know what we're talking about before we. Yes, we're recording. Hello, everybody.

[Christine]

You were going to tell me something and then it kind of morphed into like, oh, I want to bring the audience in on this conversation. So I feel like I slowly opened the door while you were talking and I said, uh huh huh. And then I gathered everyone in.

[Eva]

I could have walked into the room when everyone was listening as you were.

[Christine]

You know, prophesying or whatever. But okay, so the aquarium, do you have the name of it?

[Eva]

I know that the account. The account is called Underwater with Aaron.

[Christine]

Underwater with Aaron. Oh yeah, you said that. Wow, okay, that's cool. M. What a like a wild journey that was. So you thought to yourself, what, what.

[Eva]

Do I not like, oh, I was like, oh, I should do something. I should do something kind for like in an area of the world that like I just either don't care about or like, don't give a about. And I was like, by first I was like, well, I hate fish. And I was like, next time. And then I made a joke to myself of like, well, if a fish comes up to me and asks for help, okay, fine, I'll like do a mitzvah.

[Christine]

Because like, right, right. Like on what universe would that, you know? But see, now that this is where I'm getting this troubling second underlying thought of like, okay, we know that when we speak aloud or we're in the same kind of sphere as people, like, we'll get like, you know, things that feel creepy in the algorithm that are like, oh, because you're in on the same WI FI network as somebody who is, like, looking for leggings or whatever, but this is a whole new level of, you were thinking in your brain, I should do. And it's like. It's like, is it chicken? It's chicken. Or the egg? Like, does TikTok just know you so well that it sort of knew it before you realized? Or do you really. Or you don't think it.

[Eva]

Like, no. There must be some sort of subtleties I'm putting out there in the world, because the TikTok algorithm has always known me better than I knew myself, so.

[Christine]

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. It. It is known for being, like, so niche.

[Eva]

It's very odd. But anyway, I. I just.

[Christine]

It often happens where someone will mention something and then I'll suddenly get it on TikTok. It's rare that it's so specific in my head and then it, like, literally appears, and I find that to be, like, alarming. And I also wonder, like, is that just computers or is that, like, ooh, the time could. You know, we're blurring the lines of time. Okay.

[Eva]

No, I think.

[Christine]

No, no, this is for the after. After hours where I start to lose it.

[Eva]

I. I think our phones are just constantly listening to us, even if they claim that they aren't.

[Christine]

I mean, you're right. Like, if somebody constantly monitored every. Not even just what we say, but, like, our. Like, where we're going and, like, the tone of our voices. Like, if somebody monitored every second of that, which I guess they kind of do. Or not somebody, but, like, an algorithm or whatever? Yeah, I guess it would fucking know you better than anyone.

[Eva]

I mean, all the way to the point where, like, I can be, like, at the dog park, I was making a reference of, like, oh, remember that old meme? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, like, within 20 minutes, it was on my phone. Like, it's just.

[Christine]

It's. But also. But here's where I get caught up, though. I feel like for you, this is so specific, and I know you're psychic also. And so then I wonder, is this kind of a crossover of, like, you're almost feeling already what you're about to see?

[Eva]

Maybe I'm already here.

[Christine]

On your feet.

[Eva]

Yeah. Am I speaking something into existence, or am I reeling in the future and making it seem present?

[Christine]

Like, is it kind of hand in hand, like the algorithm and you are both arriving at the same point? Or is it, like, the Algorithm set it up and you're, like, already sensing what's ahead. I don't know, man. I'm just saying there's a lot to think about.

[Eva]

Well, you're one of the only people who thinks I'm psychic. I appreciate you.

[Christine]

I know. Eva saw it too. We did the Kreskins game. The ESP game. I know we've done this before, but. Anna, yappy hour. We could do another psychic test, because I feel like I've been practicing and I'm not any better, but you just, like, showed up in the green room and we're like, triangle square, purple bl. And I was like, seriously? You just sit there and you just know them all. So I'm.

[Eva]

I'm an outdated psychic.

[Christine]

Maybe you just know your own. Like, maybe feed in advance.

[Eva]

Anyway, so I. I said I would help out this aquarium.

[Christine]

Take away from the fish charity.

[Eva]

No, no, no. But I, No, I, I, I'm terrified of fish. Anyone who knows me knows that I, like, the, the irony is that she said something of, like in her tick tock of like, oh, if you help out, like, you can have, like, free entry for life. And I was like, girl, I'm not going, like, property.

[Christine]

What about sharks? What about, like, oh, what about octopus?

[Eva]

It would have to be like, like a penguin or an otter situation.

[Christine]

Like, oh, you're really just not into the sea life.

[Eva]

It's gotta have fur. I'm so sorry. I just really.

[Christine]

What about an octopus? I know I said that four times.

[Eva]

But I think they're fascinating. I don't want to look at them. They look like slugs to me. Yeah. And I'm sure bug people are also. Yeah. They freak me out. I don't. I don't know what it is, but I. I'm like, I'm helping someone in need.

[Christine]

So if this means.

[Eva]

And by someone, I mean the slug. Octopus. Fish.

[Christine]

The. Yeah, the one that you never want to set eyes on. Yeah. I'm sure that you're just doing wonders. I mean, listen, I'll. I'll. Hey, you go, can I take M's lifetime pass and go support the aquarium, please, in person?

[Eva]

I. I do. I especially obviously want to support, like, people of color in stem, like, trying to, like, do, like, the first of its kind. So I'm. I'm happy to do it, but the fact that it's fish, I'm like, of course I would speak this into existence.

[Christine]

So to be fair, you asked yourself, what do I not want to do?

[Eva]

I know.

[Christine]

And then it appeared.

[Eva]

So I know so anyway, I hope. I hope it's a. A thrilling success.

[Christine]

We applaud your job. I just don't want to be there. I'm sure at the end of the day, your will and test, your final will and Testament, will leave 100% of your belongings to.

[Eva]

To a fish.

[Christine]

Yeah, some fish somewhere yonder sea waiting for me. And so that, I feel like, is your fate. And what about.

[Eva]

Let's. Let's hear if here. If you had to help a. I keep saying a community. It makes me feel so much worse as a per. Like, oh, I'm helping a community. I don't give a. About.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, you say that.

[Eva]

How do I say it? Help.

[Christine]

I don't even understand the concept of what, like, you're saying, so I can't really speak on it. I've never thought to myself, like, what do I not want to support? And then like.

[Eva]

Or like, what's something you just. It wouldn't even occur to you because you just are so removed from that. Like, I. Like, I would never think about fish because I don't care about fish. They freak me out. I'm scared.

[Christine]

Okay, but you do care about fish, and you do think about fish because you don't like fish. And I feel like that. Back to the algorithm where it knows that.

[Eva]

Are you the algorithm? I feel like I. I'm trying to be.

[Christine]

I'm trying to. I'm trying to get. Gain all the intel I can.

[Eva]

I guess that's. Now the reason why I drink is because I. Of all the places I was willing to give my money, I did not see it going to my worst enemy, my mortal enemy.

[Christine]

So fish. I actually did see that coming. Not because I'm psychic, but because, like, narratively, that would have been the most fun. And so I think I saw it. I sensed it in that way. And I am delighted. So. So you don't. So did you donate to the fund?

[Eva]

I donated to the labs.

[Christine]

Where. Where is it?

[Eva]

It's in Atlanta.

[Christine]

Atlanta. Okay, cool. Wait, the. It's not the Atlanta Aquarium?

[Eva]

No.

[Christine]

Okay. I was like, that thing's huge.

[Eva]

I don't know enough about their story yet. They just came up on my feed, so I have yet to do a little, like, creeping. You know, I think it's in Atlanta. I'm pretty sure everyone go follow underwater with Aaron.

[Christine]

And did you check out the. Oh, it probably doesn't have a charity navigator.

[Eva]

They have. They have a GoFundMe in their bio. That's kind of as far as I've seen, but The. The two labs that they're trying to build are like a filtration system and an animal behavior lab. And I said, oh, yeah, that animal behavior one's gonna have, because animal also implies not just fish. It could be, like, other animals.

[Christine]

I don't know. It doesn't, though. I know it just implies animal, but nice try getting out of it. Anyway, so, like, you were looking for, like, penguin. Like, penguin.

[Eva]

If there was, like, an otter lab, I would have been like, that's for me. Yeah.

[Christine]

Maybe I would donate to. Oh, you know what? I don't care about. This is so rude.

[Eva]

Okay, great. Finally, a lot of sports.

[Christine]

It's not rude that. I wasn't gonna say a lot of sports at first. I was gonna say something specific, and that was gonna be rude. So I'm just gonna say a lot of sports I don't care about.

[Eva]

I wish you were ruder, but I understand.

[Christine]

I do too, sometimes.

[Eva]

Can I have the topic? No. Basketball.

[Christine]

I've already talked about it on. I think it was a yappy hour. But when Eva started archery at 6 in the morning, and I said to myself, you could not pay me. You really couldn't pay me. Like, you could not pay me to go to archery. I don't know why. I don't, like, particularly hate it or anything or have a problem with it. And I'm like, it's the most Eva thing ever. So I'm, like, thrilled for her, but I'm like, there's something about it that completely turns me off. I've, like, zero interest in it. And I'm like, so if something were like, oh, providing accessible archery lessons, I'd be like, all right, little Evas of the world. You get to have your archery lessons. You know, that maybe is.

[Eva]

You know, that's.

[Christine]

Sorry, Eva. I was gonna be not rude, and I just couldn't help myself.

[Eva]

That's weird, because archery is, like, one of the only sports I can tolerate.

[Christine]

I know that. And I. In Eva, too. And I. I just, like. It makes me feel like screaming. I don't know why. Like, it's. I must. I probably have to do some shadow work around.

[Eva]

That's like me in, like, a. Tennis or. No, not tennis. Lacrosse.

[Christine]

Well, okay. Yeah, I think that. But I think that's a. More. Yeah, Well, I agree. Okay. Just leave it. Let's leave it at that. I agree.

[Eva]

Perfect. Why do you drink, Christine?

[Christine]

Great question. Because I feel like never.

[Eva]

Okay, take your time. Oh, wait.

[Christine]

There were three things in my mind that came up all at once, and I Thought, which of them should I talk about? And then, like, simultaneously, my brain went, none of them. And I went, okay, so what else should I talk about? Do you have a reason While I kind of let one sink in?

[Eva]

Sure. Mine was mine, I guess now is.

[Christine]

That Angry Orchard is what I'm drinking. Sorry to just to give a little, like, foreshadowing. I am drinking some angry orchard. Maybe you can psychically tell me why I drink after you tell yours.

[Eva]

Sure. Okay, well, I'm drinking a iced tea. Oh, the palm Shout out cute one of me and Allison saves. And why did I drink originally? Oh, man, it's spreading. It's Friday.

[Christine]

It's spreading.

[Eva]

Oh, I went, girl, please.

[Christine]

It's Friday.

[Eva]

You know, I.

[Christine]

Knee hurts.

[Eva]

My knee hurts.

[Christine]

Your knee hurts?

[Eva]

It's gonna be that today because I tried taking Hank out for a walk. I must have slept a weird way, and all of a sudden, my knee is, like, over there.

[Christine]

Well, I mean, you did talk about how Hank kicked your eyes this morning, so, like, no wonder.

[Eva]

He probably also kicked me right in the kneecap.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Eva]

But other than that, I honestly, I'm. This is kind of a boring answer, but I have to, like, reset the whole house for the week, and I'm not looking forward to that because I was too. Like, I do the trash and all the cleaning and grocery shop and prep the food, and, like, I just have, like, a whole day to it.

[Christine]

You, like, have, like, a plan for that? I, like, yeah. Oh, I know. I need. See, this is where I learn about other humans, and I'm like, oh, I see. That's how you do it. You have, like, a designated time.

[Eva]

No, I have, like, a whole day. So, like, today, I, like, I'm trying.

[Christine]

To write this down.

[Eva]

I just try to get as many errands done in one day as possible. So that way, I get six days off versus, like, constantly feeling like there's a looming task tomorrow.

[Christine]

Wait, so you get six days off from everything? Like, from. From, like, any. You don't do any other, like, errands and stuff during those days?

[Eva]

Not, like. Not, like, weekly upkeep stuff?

[Christine]

No. Oh, my gosh. Wow.

[Eva]

Like, laundry and, like, the groceries suck. Which, like, the groceries are fine, but it's, like, the. Then having to prep everything because I've told you that, like, I don't just, like, put the berries in the fridge. I, like, wash all them and put them on containers and stuff. It's like a food prep situation, which, like. Which sounds healthier than it is. It's more because I'M lazy, and I know if there's berries in the fridge that are dirty, I now, instead of eating them, we'll just leave them there because I don't want to wash them. So I have to just do it all at once so I'll actually eat them. Throughout the.

[Christine]

I went BlackBerry picking. I told you that. I know, but would you eat berries that, like, were picked at a farm?

[Eva]

I would be aware that they were not washed.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Eva]

I would eat them. I would eat them, and I wouldn't.

[Christine]

They're way cleaner than ones from the grocery store.

[Eva]

Probably in my head, though, I'd be like, dirt. A bug might have crawled on this, but I wouldn't say anything.

[Christine]

I would just get a bug might have crawled on it.

[Eva]

Anyway. How do you handle things that should.

[Christine]

Be the next thing you donate to bugs?

[Eva]

No, I'm done.

[Christine]

You already said slugs are octopi, and I'm already mad about it.

[Eva]

They're all pretty much the same to me.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Eva]

How do you handle your households? What do you do?

[Christine]

I don't handle my household. Okay. I'm constantly drowning. That's why I drink. Yeah, that's why I drink. I'm constantly drowning.

[Eva]

What are you drowning about this week?

[Christine]

Everything. Stomach viruses, laundry, vet appointments.

[Eva]

Do you have a stomach virus trouble?

[Christine]

No. Leona and Blaze, car trouble. My house is so dirty, I can't even function. I have had terrible insomnia. I don't know. I could go on. It's not really important. It's just. It's just, like, hard to keep up. And, you know, it's my fault. I bought a big house. It's hard to maintain, and I bought an old. I guess not even that it's big. It's just old. And so, like, it just needs a lot of work, and I don't have the bandwidth for that. So I sometimes feel like. Like, I literally cried to Blaze the other day. Like, I'm the worst housewife ever. And it's like, you're not a housewife. Like, you're not a housewife. And I was like, but somebody has to be. Somebody has to.

[Eva]

Like, someone has to manage.

[Christine]

To be fair, Blaze manages anything that really needs to be managed. Blaze manages. So as far as, like, the. The yard and, like, groceries, Blaze does the groceries and Blaze does, you know, a lot of, like, we split Leona's stuff half and half and have our designated things, so. But he manages much more of the house because he isn't, you know, hasn't been working. He's been stay at home dad, so he does most of that. I just sometimes, like, in my own space, feel like, what am I doing? Like, I'm supposed to be an adult, you know? And I'm like. I mean, looking at bags of trash, like, spilled drink. I mean, it's just gross.

[Eva]

Like, I'm like, I literally just bought overalls with outer space all over them. So, like, there's no such thing as, like, I have to be an adult, but.

[Christine]

And I also bought two Labubus. Okay, I'm gonna say it. Me. All right. What colors?

[Eva]

Which ones?

[Christine]

I. So Eva started it.

[Eva]

Obviously, I didn't have to ask that question.

[Christine]

I know. You knew it. And she gave me one. And I. Before I even saw it. And I didn't even know what they were called. I'd been avoiding them like the plague because I thought to myself, I don't even wanna. You know how I am. Like, I don't wanna get attached. I don't know what this is. I don't wanna be spending money on. I don't wanna get attached. I get to San Diego, and Eva went to our show there and hands me this bag and goes, oh, I brought your birthday presents. And I, like, open them, and I just see the top of the box. And I said, I know what it is. And I'm like, how do I know what it is? It must have been subconscious. I was like, I know what this is. And I pull it out, and I'm like, oh, my God. And I open it up, and I hold him up, and it's the green one. Serenity.

[Eva]

Okay?

[Christine]

And I'm holding him, and I just apparently said. Apparently I said, I knew this would happen.

[Eva]

Well, that sounds right.

[Christine]

I knew this moment would happen or something, like, really unhinged. And everyone was like, okay, she's actually making this a lot weirder than it needed to be. And then I just got like. And then they had Little Prince collectibles on the Pop Mart app, and I was like, oh, my gosh, they have the little princess. I've been very conscientious. I'm not like, just, you know, this is why money at it. But I'm just saying this is one of the things that the consequences of my recent kind of downward feelings.

[Eva]

No, this is why I fully believe in FLT culture. In a capitalist society, you need a fun little treat every now and then. And by every now and then, sometimes that's every couple hours, you clean fully.

[Christine]

Pesticide berry from the fridge.

[Eva]

But you know what? For the next six Days, I feel fucking great. Okay.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. And throwing money at your enemies, the fish.

[Eva]

It helps me justify my. My constant flt to myself. But no, there's a. I feel. Yeah, I mean, I think. I think the grass is always greener about, like, having a. A big house you can't maintain. Right. Because I have a literal shack, and I also can't maintain it. So no matter what size it is.

[Christine]

You went and, like, that's a lot of work. And your dog's bigger. I feel like, yeah. There are so many different nuances and layers. To, quote unquote, being an adult, you know, that's like, oh. Then you feel like you're failing in certain areas and you kind of forget to, like, widen to like, oh, but you're doing this and this and this and this. You know, you're juggling so many things. And I think that's true for all of us, really. But sometimes it's hard to see.

[Eva]

Yeah, it's. It's always the nooks and crannies, too, because no matter how much I clean or, like, do the main stuff, then I look, like, at a baseboard, and I'm like, ah. Like, there's so many other parts of this house that I am not scrubbing, but I'm calling this place clean. So does it ever feel finished? And then I just like, no, I.

[Christine]

With you, I really. I feel very gross. Like, sometimes we pay for a cleaner, but it's expensive, and, like, they come in clean. And I feel bad because I'm like, the house is so. So then I clean before they get here. But then, like, they can vacuum and stuff, but, like, there's no time to do, like, baseboards or, like, dusting the lamps. And so then I walk around and I, like, suddenly notice, oh, there's like, a year's worth of dust on that stairwell, and I haven't even, like, clocked it, you know? And it's just. Yeah.

[Eva]

Yeah. It's constantly. It almost feels like I'm constantly getting humbled to a point where, like, the.

[Christine]

Minute you feel like you're.

[Eva]

You've got it, like, it's not balancing out. Like, I'm starting. Like, I feel like I'm just constantly being humbled and, like, the opposite isn't happening. So eventually it's just snowballing into, like, one big, like, oh, you suck. Like, it becomes like a. Like a feeling like you're failing in something.

[Christine]

Yeah, exactly. And then it. Like, your ego's like, peck, peck, peck, peck, peck. And it just sort of takes over and you're like. And then you kind of forget the big picture, you know?

[Eva]

Yeah, that's a pretty good reason to drink for someone who said they didn't know what was.

[Christine]

I guess there were just so many things and my brain said, don't talk about any of them. And I said, how about all of them? Yeah, that's fine. We. We. We'll. We'll leave it at that. But thank you everyone for listening to our long ass intro. I am sorry. I didn't really. I. I knew. Lately, I've been preparing a reason I drink to avoid this exact spiral. Well, so I better do that next week.

[Eva]

Great. Okay.

[Christine]

Good luck. I'll try.

[Eva]

I'm just gonna keep winging it and telling you about my up kneecaps. There's a lot of things that belong in my summer plans these days. An icy sweet tea. Maybe a slip and slide If I was 10 years younger and had good knees. Maybe Hank at the dog beach if he wasn't terrified of water.

[Christine]

But you know, wow. There's so many dreams.

[Eva]

So many dreams. But you know, it doesn't belong in your epic summer plans. Getting burned by your old wireless bill.

[Christine]

Oh, they love to do that, don't you? With Mint, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to, but for way less money. And for a limited time, mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So while your friends are sweating over data overages and surprise charges, you'll be chilling at the dog beach with Hank.

[Eva]

Yes.

[Christine]

Literally and financially chilling. While Hank is probably having a panic.

[Eva]

Attack, all plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. We have used Mint Mobile when we were on tour.

[Christine]

Yeah, if you've been to a show, you may have. Your show may have been rescued by Mint Mobile. So you have them to thank for that. And I have them to thank for that. So ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month.

[Eva]

This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mint mobile.com ATWD that's mint mobile.com@wwd.

[Christine]

Upfront payment of 45 required equivalent to 15amonth limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees. Extra CMIT mobile for details.

[Eva]

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[Christine]

Oh, you mean Esperanza. Yeah, she continues to nail it. I had like slowly peeked around on the website and I had like spotted this strawberry sweater that I really liked. And then when my box arrived, the strawberry sweater was in there and I was like, how did she know? How did she know? But it's like she's figured me out.

[Eva]

You get to take a quiz all about your price and lifestyle preferences. And you get up to 12 hand selected items may or may not come with a strawberry sweater. That's up to your stylist. And then you buy what you love and send back the rest of your.

[Christine]

It feels like really cool to be able to say, oh, I have enough pairs of jeans, you know, or whatever, and just have someone say, got it. Like no jeans. Without having to worry that some algorithm will have to figure it out. So, yeah, Daily look is awesome. They have sizes for almost every body from extra small to 3x0 to 24, and we want you to check them out.

[Eva]

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[Christine]

Once again, that's DailyLook.com for 50 off. Make sure you use our promo code drink so they know we sent you one last time. Dailylook.com promo code drink.

[Eva]

My story for everybody today is in Australia and this is the old Melbourne jail.

[Christine]

Ooh, haven't you took. Oh, wait, did we get a listener story about this once? I don't know why a jail in Australia? I feel like we've discussed Australia.

[Eva]

Nope. Jail.

[Christine]

Okay, so without further. Just let it. Let it soak.

[Eva]

Someone appreciated it. Many did not.

[Christine]

Nobody appreciated it. Least of all me.

[Eva]

This is, by the way, jail is spelled the fun way, y'.

[Christine]

All. Yeah, Love it.

[Eva]

It's the first jail in Victoria. In fact, this jail predates Victoria because the jail was established in 1839, was built officially in the 1840s. Victoria. It doesn't even become a state, I think, until the 1850s.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. Wow.

[Eva]

Fun fact. So it is the first jail in Victoria. Although I think Victoria could say we're the first Victoria in the jail.

[Christine]

So around the jail. That's true.

[Eva]

This place. I thought this was a fun fact. Probably nobody else does but most of the time I feel like I'm talking about buildings made of sandstone. This one's made of blue stone.

[Christine]

Whoa, that is a fun fact. What's blue stone?

[Eva]

It's just like a gray version. Oh, like a blue version.

[Christine]

Different type of stone.

[Eva]

Just blue. So anyway, the jail opened in 1845 and it housed everyone. Everyone. Everyone. Everyone. Everyone you say? I say. I do. Including criminals, vagrants, just generally unhoused people. The people with mental health issues because there's nowhere else to put them. Men, women and children.

[Christine]

I see. So it's like a catch all for. For anybody that's sort of wanderering, like off the beaten path sort of. Oh yes. Or very, very off the path.

[Eva]

Very. Yeah. It range from serial killers to like 10 year olds. Yeah, right, yeah.

[Christine]

That. Who are law. Who are orphaned or something like that.

[Eva]

Yes.

[Christine]

That's dark. Okay.

[Eva]

Kids as young as 10 could be incarcerated here.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Eva]

But it doesn't stop there because if you were younger than 10 and you were like, you know, someone, you. I was watching you. Yeah. It was basically jail. So if you were. Yeah. As young as 10, you could be incarcerated. Other people just lived here because their mother did and they would have otherwise been on house.

[Christine]

That's sad.

[Eva]

And the full loop of that is like if they don't go with their mom, they'll be unhoused, but if they're unhoused, they'll end up in jail and be arrested on their own for vagrancy.

[Christine]

So if anything, go to like an orphanage that you know.

[Eva]

I don't think there was an orphanage.

[Christine]

Oh no. Oh, right. Okay. So that they just end up back there. Basically.

[Eva]

Yeah. So it was almost like either way you're gonna end up here. But one is like as a guest or the other is like, we arrest you for vagrancy because you're either a.

[Christine]

Plus one to your mother or you're like your own guest with your own table card that's been pre printed. Okay, got it.

[Eva]

Exactly. Babies under a year had to be here with their incarcerated mothers, otherwise there was nowhere to put them. And of course, if you're a mother, you can't just be an inmate, you still have to be a mother.

[Christine]

Because I mean, I guess thing though, I mean, I. It's better than saying you're not allowed to have your baby in jail, I.

[Eva]

Assume it's like you just make the best of it. And that's probably the view that they took of like, well, at least I'm with my baby.

[Christine]

I would think you Would. Yeah, I say, I would think that'd be almost like a positive. Yeah, yeah.

[Eva]

I would be nervous about, like, what if someone tries to like, hurt the baby or something?

[Christine]

I, I, like, again, where would the baby go? Like, yeah, yeah. Who knows where? And if you're like, obviously breastfeeding back then, you know, or whatever, I feel like that would be the more kind approach. But I know it probably was not out of kindness, but, you know, I.

[Eva]

Actually, I don't have this in my notes, so I'm paraphrasing what I read about it. But to answer your questions, like, where would the babies go either other way. And in another circumstance, there were baby farmers. Did you know about this?

[Christine]

Oh, I don't think so. I don't think so.

[Eva]

Apparently there were people that like, you could pay to like, watch your kids while you were gone. Like, almost like a. But one of the people who was a baby farmer in the area ends up like, killing a bunch of kids.

[Christine]

Because, like, that is a perfectly.

[Eva]

So then the baby farmer solution for.

[Christine]

Somebody who's sick like that.

[Eva]

So the baby farmer ended up in this jail anyway. So.

[Christine]

No. Oh, my God.

[Eva]

This is really the youngest, the youngest kid on record who was actually incarcerated here, even though they say the law was 10 and older. His name was Michael. He was three.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Eva]

So imagine Leona being arrested.

[Christine]

I won't actually think so.

[Eva]

For being idle. AKA he was walking down the street by himself. And they assumed he'd just be safer in jail.

[Christine]

So to give going on, like, what did they. It's like when cops get like a mandatory pullover, you know, like ticket ratio or whatever, that there's. Or allotment. It's like, are they just like trying to find people a quota. Thank you. To like fill the jail? I don't understand.

[Eva]

Yeah, I don't.

[Christine]

Who wants to watch a three year old like, yeah, what are you talking. What are you doing?

[Eva]

Yeah. And apparently he like, I mean, he's by himself too. It's not like, I mean, this is very like apropos to like, people of all ages being arrested right now for no reason. But. Yeah. So serial killers and children all under one roof in a women's and thus children's wing wouldn't even be open for like another 15 years. So they were just all together mixed up. And that also means for the first 15 years, inmates were here during active construction because there was. They were constantly having to expand as soon as they opened the place, they had to constantly expand because they kept realizing it was overcrowded. Because they probably didn't take into consideration the fact that they would be arresting everybody all the time.

[Christine]

Yeah. Because why would they take that into consideration? It's not a normal thing to do.

[Eva]

Like it. Also, as an architect though, can you imagine thinking like, okay, this is the maximum capacity, so don't arrest any more people than this.

[Christine]

And they're like, well, we added a three year old. Does that count? Yeah, what the fuck?

[Eva]

Within the first five years of the prison being open or the jail being opened, they had to expand already within five years it was overcrowded.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Eva]

And then it was.

[Christine]

You're saying there's no orphanage, there's no safe options. Like clearly they're just. Yeah. Dumping everyone there.

[Eva]

This is also a reminder to the USA that it would be really lovely if we redistributed funds. So that way there could be multiple places to house people that need help for different reasons. Well, I think just saying this is.

[Christine]

Yeah, but I think it's a little too late for that sentiment now nowadays. But I mean, maybe when we kind of, you know. But if you would like world from.

[Eva]

Burning, if you'd like an example outside of our country on like what it could look like if we didn't, then everyone gets arrested and goes to the same fucking place. And then you have to constantly keep expanding because people just keep getting. So the jail wasn't officially completed until 1864 and they started putting people in there in 1845. So almost 20 years later, was construction officially done? And when it was done, the jail took up an entire city block.

[Christine]

Was it one where they had to like build it themselves, the inmates?

[Eva]

I didn't see anything about that. But I also wondered. But I didn't see anything about that city block.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Eva]

The jail had, quote, multiple yards. A hospital, a chapel, a bathhouse. Why a bathhouse? And housing for the staff, I guess.

[Christine]

To take a bath.

[Eva]

Yeah. It didn't occur to me that it was for all of them.

[Christine]

Why a bathhouse?

[Eva]

It didn't occur to me. It's like the 1800s in the bathroom would be separate. Didn't occur to me. As for the conditions there from the start, they were not very good, as you can already guess. It was very unsanitary. There was a lot of it.

[Christine]

They're like, we'll put a chapel in, but like, we're also going to treat you like total shit.

[Eva]

Well, as also paraphrasing here, but religion was like one of their big things there where the only thing allowed in a lot of the cells was A Bible. And as you'll see later, is like one of their things that they really promoted here was isolation because they thought that that would keep your thoughts pure. This place also promoted corporal punishment with a cat and nine tails.

[Christine]

That goes hand in hand with the total religious thing. I think.

[Eva]

Apparently there was a maximum punishment for up to 50 lashings.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Eva]

Plus salt on the wounds.

[Christine]

I mean.

[Eva]

And I guess a lot of people, before they could even finish the 50, they would pass out from the pain. And I don't. Apparently the lashings would either still continue while you're passed out, or they'd wait for you to wake up and then continue something horrible, something very sick. The cells were incredibly small. There was no temperature regulation because it was the 1850s. So no matter what the temperature was, everyone was suffering in the heat and the cold.

[Christine]

Many, yeah, there would be rare. I mean. Oh, that makes me like.

[Eva]

Like, unless they built it right for the giraffes to come in and hit you in the right space.

[Christine]

And I'm sure that they wouldn't spend the time. It's not like a tuberculos sword where they're, like, intentionally trying to make it, you know, comfort or, like, healing or whatever the fuck.

[Eva]

Well, also with their, like, constant expanding. I don't even know if they're thinking about, like, where the windows go.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Eva]

And I actually just answered my own question because the next thing I was going to mention is that one of the things this jail also was proud of was the fact that they had a lot of sensory deprivation rooms, which means no windows, sensory deprivation, like, to keep them isolated. And so they had, I think it was like 3 meters thick walls in some areas that had no windows, nothing. It was just a tiny little square with sometimes a bed. A lot of times you just slept on the floor and they'd give you a Bible. That was kind of it.

[Christine]

They'd give you a Bible and no windows. So how the. Are you even supposed to read the Bible?

[Eva]

Excellent question. You just thoughts and prayers. I don't know.

[Christine]

They're not giving you candles, I'm sure.

[Eva]

No, that's actually a great question. I think maybe there's a window, like up here where there's a little skylight.

[Christine]

That's so thoughtful of them.

[Eva]

I know. Okay, so where were we? The conditions are terrible. Cat 9 tales people are suffering. Oh, this is a fun one. I only saw this on one source, but apparently there was a lot of people who were suffering from, like, withdrawals when they would be incarcerated. And so the jail had A detoxing protocol.

[Christine]

Oh, for God's sake.

[Eva]

Where basically this is a quote, the inmates would, quote, get doused with cold water and then they would get sewn into a blanket. Next they would be brought outside with a hood over their face and they would be left out in the blistering sun for hours. Then they would be forced to vomit to get everything out of their system. And last, they would be covered with leeches to get all the toxins out of their blood.

[Christine]

Jesus. Like, what kind of sicko thought that was actually going to be a healing.

[Eva]

Thing that's so, like drain somebody like entirely until like they're already so weak sick. Those with really, really, really bad charges. This is where I start telling more about like the layout of the jail. Because instead of it just being like a serial killer bunking with a three year old, they had different tiers based on what floor you were on. So at the very bottom, this is where most people started their time in the, in the jail. Or if you had a really bad charge, you would stay here pretty much the entire time. It was pretty much solitary confinement cells. It was super isolated. You had no privileges, including like a bed or like blankets. You probably had the worst version of the food. You got one hour of outdoor time and 23 hours you were in your cell. You couldn't. And this goes for the entire jail. They had a belief system in this isolation thing, like to write a whole extreme where they had all of their inmates, if they ever left their cells, wearing calico hoods or like they called them silent masks or basically they were canvas hoods over their face where you couldn't see them. Nobody was allowed to speak to each other. So that way nobody could.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Eva]

Get to recognize each other and bond or socialize in any way. So imagine you're locked up for like five years and you can't see another person's face.

[Christine]

You're just deprived. You can't any sort of like normal interact, social. Oh, that's sick. And like, as if that's gonna make anyone better. You know what I mean? Like, as if you're gonna leave there and be like, you're right, I am on a better path now.

[Eva]

I know, I know, I know. There were minimal baths for people on the first floor. You just barely had anything. It was just like kind of you're just sitting there and starving and going slowly crazy. And then the best you could hope for is a tier higher where maybe the conditions are better but you're still not speaking to anybody. Like, you never see Another person or talk to another person. So with good enough behavior, you could literally climb the ranks to a higher floor, have a better experience here where, like, you'll get a blanket for once. Or, like, you could do labor, like, manual labor.

[Christine]

They have you kind of, like, trying to. Trying to gain rewards, but it at.

[Eva]

Least kills time, you know? It's like, I think in that situation, I'd be like, sure, exploit the shit out of me for labor, because at least I'm doing something. Like, I don't even know what the. What the better of the two is. It just sounds awful.

[Christine]

I mean, yeah, I guess it's all bad.

[Eva]

The men were apparently doing more manual. Manual labor. The women were, of course, doing, like, sewing uniforms and things like that, which just crazy. It's just insanity. Once you earned your place on the top floor, which was the third floor, that was where people with minor crimes would go.

[Christine]

Okay, interesting. So the. So the few. I mean, I know you already said the bottom was, like, the worst offenders, but I'm kind of surprised they didn't put them, like, up in the top.

[Eva]

I know. I wonder if maybe.

[Christine]

I don't.

[Eva]

Sorry. He just rang the bell. I don't know if he needed to go outside. No, he's good.

[Christine]

He has a bell.

[Eva]

He does.

[Christine]

Oh, he's so smart.

[Eva]

I know. We're teaching him the buttons, too, to talk. Anyway, where were we? Oh, yeah, the. I think the third floor was, like, for minor crimes. Because how often are the guards on the third floor compared to, like, the lobby? In my mind, maybe they need to, like, keep their.

[Christine]

Okay, that's fair. It's like, yeah, yeah, you'd have, like, more security on the.

[Eva]

Yeah, yeah, you can probably get away with more on the third floor. And also on the third floor, they did allow people to share cells instead of solitary. I think they were still wearing the masks all the time, though.

[Christine]

When you say, like, they allowed them to share cells, you mean, like, they got to choose or, like.

[Eva]

Sorry.

[Christine]

Oh, you mean they just, like, partnered people up?

[Eva]

Good question. I think the. The top floor, they were cells where, like, you had roommates.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Eva]

But I think you still couldn't see people's faces if you could, like, you still couldn't speak. There was some weird rule where you really couldn't socialize.

[Christine]

Social rule. Okay.

[Eva]

And also on the third floor was a set of the gallows, of course. So on the.

[Christine]

Wait, on the third floor.

[Eva]

Yeah. So even though you. Once you make it up to the third floor and you're like, oh, this isn't so bad. You still have to hear people hanging all the time.

[Christine]

Why is it inside? Is that normal?

[Eva]

They had a makeshift version outside for the first few, then they brought it inside. They also have a yard version. I don't totally know what the. I don't know why they would use one over the other at different times, but they had an indoor one. And again, remember, like, the people who are on death row, like, they're not allowed to speak or anything, so you wouldn't hear anything. You would just hear someone walking up the steps and then you just hear something hang. Yeah. And that's the privilege you get for being on the floor.

[Christine]

Right. And that's like the. The best floor to be on. Yikes. Yikes. What's the second floor?

[Eva]

The second floor was just like, middle ground. You're not.

[Christine]

You're, like, trying to get to the third floor, I guess.

[Eva]

So, like, you have a blanket and that's like, the only difference, it seems like. Yeesh. And pretty much the rooms, like, they had, like, even the ones with multiple people in the cells, there was just like a bucket for a toilet. Like, I mean, it was just really nasty, too.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eva]

Speaking of the gallows, the executions here were always by hanging. And then there was a law at the time where if you were hanged in a prison, you also had to be buried on that property. I don't know how that works. Like, I don't know if, like, you can sign something and, like, have your relative come be buried like a prisoner or whatever.

[Christine]

I bet they just get final say, but.

[Eva]

So 133 people were hanged here, and that was from the 1850s to the 1840s to the 1920s.

[Christine]

33.

[Eva]

You said 133 in, like, 80 years.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Eva]

Three of them were women. And almost all the executions were for murder, although a couple of them were for attempted murder, robberies, assaults. And then one person was a manslaughter by arson. The hangman. Here's an extra fucked up mental thing. The hangman for these executions was usually another inmate.

[Christine]

Oh, I was afraid you'd say that.

[Eva]

Who was paid to. Who was paid to disguise themselves so nobody would know which inmate was doing was which. Like, I don't know why I need the disguise if everyone's already wearing hoods all the time. But anyway. But. So if you for some reason bonded with somebody and you find out, you.

[Christine]

Probably wear, like, an executioner's, like, robe thing. I don't know.

[Eva]

Yeah, yeah, that's.

[Christine]

So this is all twisted. I mean, do you think There were like psychopaths who were like, sure, I'll do it if you're paying me.

[Eva]

So the next thing I was going to say is that because it was just a random inmate, if they didn't like you for some reason, they could control how long or short the rope was, AKA how swiftly or slowly you would die.

[Christine]

And I guess it was a little reductive to say if you're a psychopath. I mean, I think that there would be a lot more nuance to. Yeah. Prison, like, relationships and like, conflict and. Yikes.

[Eva]

And also I wonder, like, is that something that someone on like the bottom level in solitary confinement is allowed to do or is this like a quote perk you get when you rise up.

[Christine]

In the ranks and they. They're paying them for it?

[Eva]

Yeah.

[Christine]

You said, oh my God. I mean, probably pennies or something, but yeah.

[Eva]

Yeah.

[Christine]

This is creepy to have other prisoners do the. Do they get to volunteer or like, are they assigned?

[Eva]

I think they're assigned. Or. And maybe, maybe once you hit that second floor and you're allowed to like, work and do manual labor, maybe that's just one of the jobs.

[Christine]

Like sign up for it.

[Eva]

I think you. They are assigned certain people. I don't think they get to pick who they kill, because that sounds like.

[Christine]

I was gonna say that feels like a recipe for disaster. But again, it feels like they're doing a whole social experiment or anti social experiment.

[Eva]

So there, there was one hangman who was assigned to execute one of the three women and he, like, lost his mind. He, like, couldn't wrap his head around killing a woman and so he slit his own throat while what? While in his own cell.

[Christine]

See, but this is where I'm saying I think there's some sort of fucked up shit going on, like politics wise, behind the scenes. Because like, obviously if he's like, I don't want to do that. And they're like, you have to, you know.

[Eva]

Yeah. Some notable people that were executed here was Elizabeth Scott, who was the first woman to be executed in Victoria. And a lot of rumors suggest that she actually was innocent. Oh, geez. Another is a guy named Frederick Bailey Deeming, who not only killed his wife, but his four children and then his next wife.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Eva]

And his crimes were so brutal, he was actually later suspected to be Jack the Ripper.

[Christine]

Holy.

[Eva]

Another guy was Colin Ross. This one's sad. He.

[Christine]

Oh, this one's sad.

[Eva]

This one's sad. Colin Ross was in jail for a murder that he was accused of, but he kept saying he was innocent. In fact, he started writing letters asking for help to get exonerated and then throwing the letters over the jail walls, hoping someone would, like, help him out. And he was hanged anyway. And only in the 90s did forensics prove that he was innocent.

[Christine]

That's. Yeah.

[Eva]

And he was pardoned, like, after death in the 2000s. Yeah. And then for a while, the jail actually had the. The pencil on display that he would use to write the letters asking for help.

[Christine]

Oh, boy.

[Eva]

I know another person who was executed here. His name was Ned Kelly. In Australia, this guy is apparently like Robin Hood. I've never heard his name, but apparently.

[Christine]

So familiar that I listened to case file. I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but that's an Australian show, so maybe that's why he's named Ned something.

[Eva]

Ned Kelly. Don't look him up yet.

[Christine]

Okay, I won't, I won't.

[Eva]

He is kind of hot, I'll tell you that. Oh.

[Christine]

Oh. I was not expecting that.

[Eva]

When you not blind. I'm gay. I'm not blind. He is apparently very iconic for being, like, a good boy, bad boy, but he was, like, also a killer. So some people are like, he's a literal killer. But other people are like. But I'm kind of, like, here for, like, his reasons. Yeah.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Eva]

He was part of this little gang of outlaws. And so he ended up being arrested during a shootout where I think three police officers were killed. He had. He had killed three police officers in a different incident and then was on the run and then got caught during this shootout later. And in this shootout, him and his gang of outlaws, they made their own metal armor to wear. It's very, like, early phase Iron man kind of suit.

[Christine]

Like, it's kind of primitive.

[Eva]

Yeah. Like, if. So now, if you want to look him up, if you type in Ned Kelly metal armor or Ned Kelly's body armor, he made.

[Christine]

Ew. Oh, yeah, I've seen that. Kind of. The Kelly gang. Yes, yes, yes. I've seen that picture. It's disturbing. So it's like a horror movie.

[Eva]

He made these boys suits of armor for him and his friends for this shootout. He knew the show was going to happen and he wanted to survive. And they actually did make him bulletproof. And the parts that were covering him, but he. His full shoulder to hands and then hips to toes were not covered. And so in the shootout, he ended up bleeding quite a lot, and that's how they were able to arrest him. Fun fact. That suit is now at the state library. Victoria, if you want to go see it?

[Christine]

It looks like a bucket with like a slit in the eyes and like these kind of rudimentary, like metal. It's creepy because, like, you can't see the face. It looks like.

[Eva]

And they were hand forged. He like banged the metal into shape.

[Christine]

It's creepy.

[Eva]

So anyway, he tried to get away from the shootout. The parts of him that were covered did work, but he ends up getting arrested anyway.

[Christine]

He's extremely handsome, right?

[Eva]

He's like wildly hot.

[Christine]

Well, okay, so when you said, like, he's hot, to be fair, you. I've never, I, to my knowledge, never heard you call a man hot. I've heard you call a man, like, handsome or like, oh, he's good looking or tall, dark. I've never heard you say hot. So I was like taken aback by.

[Eva]

That when I finally said it though. Was I right?

[Christine]

I mean, you were right. At least based on this picture. I have this.

[Eva]

The one with the beard and the swoopy.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's the beard and the hair. Like, he looks like he's a hipster in nowadays times.

[Eva]

Yeah. But like, he would fit in today if you time traveled.

[Christine]

Very swarthy.

[Eva]

Yeah, swarthy. Christine, there are very few men, I will say are like, wildly.

[Christine]

Yes. Very few far between.

[Eva]

Which means if you're on the list, you should be so honored.

[Christine]

I will say we only have one picture, so those of you who know more, you know, let us know if we're off base. But that one picture is a pretty, Pretty striking.

[Eva]

It's certainly a picture one of his relatives had framed somewhere.

[Christine]

Like, I would frame that in my house. Not really. I don't know who he is. And I would do.

[Eva]

But you kind of wish it was one of the tin types in your. In your box.

[Christine]

Yeah, it would be cool. Yeah. I would be like, who's this girl anyway?

[Eva]

So can you imagine if you went digging through your box of tin types and then you found that picture? And I was like, that's Ned Kelly.

[Christine]

Yeah, but you. And I would be like, no. I'd be like, that's Ned Kelly. And you'd be like, no. And I'd be like, is it Jude Law? And you'd be like, no. And I'd be just like completely wrong about the whole thing. So I already see how that would go.

[Eva]

Well, so Ned Kelly was arrested. He ended up staying, apparently in cell 113 in case people care about that. That and he ends up being executed. His final words, notoriously, are such is life. However, there is some debate on whether those were his last words or after the guard said, like, you ready? Like, to die. Apparently he said, ah, well, I suppose.

[Christine]

I mean, that class act. I know, I mean, it's a classy way to go. I. Again, I don't know who this guy is. Please don't take my word to mean anything. I don't.

[Eva]

Yeah, we know nothing about him over here.

[Christine]

Please don't. Don't take that word for. To mean anything except what a. What a. It's kind of a cool way to. It's a cool last line.

[Eva]

Yeah. And fun fact about him. He was apparently so iconic that there have been movies and TV shows about him. And in the scenes where he has. Where like the Ned Kelly of the movie is executed, it was filmed at the jail.

[Christine]

Oh, goodness gracious.

[Eva]

Like, like, I don't know if it was on the exact spot where he literally died because that feels crazy.

[Christine]

But I mean, it. It feels even. Just wild to even go there and do it on the property just to do it. If, I mean, I guess if you're like, oh, the setting is exactly the right setting.

[Eva]

But like, imagine being the actor.

[Christine]

I was about to say, as the actor, I'd be like, this feels fucked up.

[Eva]

Also as a director, I would be like, stay in your lane, director. Like, obviously, you don't need to tell me how this goes down. Like, it's literally happened right here. Another fun fact about Ned is that when he was sentenced to death, apparently he told the court, I'll see you there. And within like three weeks, the judge that sentenced him, like, was dead. Like within, like within like 20 days or something. So he, like.

[Christine]

I know the stories are usually just probably like lore or like coincidence, but they get me every.

[Eva]

Every time.

[Christine]

Every time they get me. Well, after he happened at the Whaley house, right?

[Eva]

I think so, yeah.

[Christine]

Was it the Whaley house somewhere where like Yankee Jim Swerve and I don't know, I can't remember what I'm. What. Which example I'm thinking of anyway.

[Eva]

Well, after he died, a death mask was made of him, which is essentially a cast or a bust of his head, but it's like a. A proper cast molding of his head before, right?

[Christine]

Like a plaster of Paris type thing.

[Eva]

Yes, that's exactly right. But they were called death masks, which is so much more intense. And they did this for a lot of the people that were executed there. So if you go there to this day, they have the death masks of everyone that they execut suited, like lined up or in different Rooms.

[Christine]

Imagine being like the one to like do the paper mache of like all the people you like on a dead body. Yeah, it's just a wild concept that that would be your job, you know.

[Eva]

These death masks were actually used for a few reasons. One was to put them on display. Yikes. But I guess as a way to like serve. I don't know what purpose it served. I'm guessing it was like, don't be like them, you know, who's been here.

[Christine]

The hall of shame type type thing.

[Eva]

Yeah. The other reason is because at the time phrenology was a big thing.

[Christine]

Right.

[Eva]

For those who don't know, phrenology is a pseudoscience where basically they thought that their. That personality traits are believed to sit in the same place on everyone's cranium. So they could make a map and touch your head and feel like the. The natural bumps and nooks and crannies on your head. They would assume that meant you had more or less of certain personality traits.

[Christine]

Like they, they believe they could like identify disord like all sorts of things. Yeah, yeah.

[Eva]

So doctors could feel the bumps and decide if you were more or less gifted. And this, by the way, I used to like think phrenology was so fascinating. Not as something that I believed in, but like, I just loved the like. It was just like a cool story. I was apparently not fully informed on all of it. It is a wildly racist situation. Back then phrenology was used to justify why people of color were inferior to white people in it justified a lot of white supremacy. And a lot of people would use it to prove why we should be colonizing and enslaving other people because the bumps on their heads suggested that they were dumber or. Or had worse morals or.

[Christine]

Yeah, like more primitive, quote unquote. Like I mean like they deserve in some way early lesser humans, you know, to like other them. Yeah, it was a huge part of. Or is probably still. I don't know, but was a huge part of eugenics. Sorry.

[Eva]

And so at the time though it was the reason they had the death masks was that way. It was almost like to do an autopsy on a person or you know, how they'll still study like serial killers brains. It was.

[Christine]

Oh sure.

[Eva]

It was to study their heads to see if we could figure out personality traits about them so we could predict future criminals.

[Christine]

So creepy.

[Eva]

So anyway, those are some of the people executed there. But in 1870 the jail decided that they were finally going to close and relocate prisoners that did not include or that Was not just the living prisoners. They also wanted to enter and rebury the bodies on the property to other cemeteries.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. What year was it?

[Eva]

1870.

[Christine]

Okay, okay. Oh, so not very long after.

[Eva]

No, only like 30 years, pretty much.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Eva]

And so even though they decided that they were going to slowly discontinue the prison and relocate everyone, it took them like 50 years to do it.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Eva]

They decided this in 1870, and the place didn't officially close until the 1920s.

[Christine]

Geez. Were people still in there during that time?

[Eva]

I think so, yeah.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Eva]

I think they were just slowly moving kind of by chunk.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Eva]

So bodies were taken out and reburied at another prison cemetery, including Ned Kelly. And a few years later, most of it was taken over by now a university. Other parts of it were a military prison. During World War II, it was police storage. After World War II, the jail joined the heritage register and is now a protected landmark. In the 70s, it became a museum about the jail. And other parts of it are still owned by the university. But the main part is a museum. People can go see.

[Christine]

They put the pencil in there.

[Eva]

That's when they put the pencil in there. 140,000 annual visitors apparently go to this museum. It displays many of the death masks. A replica of Ned Kelly's Iron man suit, which is what I'm calling it.

[Christine]

It is so creepy. I don't know. I think they must have used it in some horror movie or something like.

[Eva]

Yeah. Oh, it reminds me. It's kind of like Monty Python. The Just a flesh.

[Christine]

It does look like that. You're right. It does look like the Monty Python. I think in the. In the images I saw that looked kind of like the zodiac killer pictures. I think that's where I'm going. I think it reminds me a little bit of the zodiacs outfit with like the slit in the eyes. I think that's where I'm getting like, stuck.

[Eva]

Horrible.

[Christine]

Like. Like heebie jeebies. Yeah. And it does look like Monty Python. It really does.

[Eva]

I. I think actually this replica, I think you're allowed to like, wear it. Like put it on for a picture.

[Christine]

No, thanks. If only for germs. No thanks.

[Eva]

Either that or I watched a YouTuber be like so disrespectful to like a display.

[Christine]

This is our. This is our down.

[Eva]

I'm gonna put it on. Yeah. So anyway, they have ghosts. They have the Iron man suit. They have shackles. They have a flogging rack that was used there. The gallows. And its trapdoor is still there.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Eva]

They also have recreations of some of the cells. They have the silent masks or the face coverings that they use to not talk to each other. They also have some of the sensory deprivation punishment cells on display when you can. I don't know if you can go in there, but they. You can see it from above, and you can look into it and, like.

[Christine]

Sense what it would have been. Oh, that's.

[Eva]

Which means it was essentially the dungeon and you could look down.

[Christine]

Yeah. That's chilling.

[Eva]

Another thing they once had here was allegedly Ned Kelly's skull. It was said to have been removed and put on display during the reburial that they, like, took his head and.

[Christine]

They were like, you don't need this, do you?

[Eva]

And. Yeah. And then used it for the museum, I guess. It ended up being stolen from the museum, and it was returned in 2009 by this guy who was like, don't ask questions. I'm just returning it. I don't want you to know how I have this.

[Christine]

Wow. And they were like, no questions asked. Bring it back.

[Eva]

Pretty much. They ended up testing the skull to make sure. To make sure that he didn't, like, bring in a random skull. And forensics be wild, but okay. There's actually two missing skulls.

[Christine]

Now what? Now who's this guy? Yeah.

[Eva]

So they tested it, and it was. Is the skull that was once in the. In the ground here that was missing, but it was never Ned's skull.

[Christine]

What?

[Eva]

So apparently Ned was never touched. This was the skull of a different.

[Christine]

Body, someone else's head, and said it was him. See, that's up. I mean, of course it's up. It's all up. But, like, what a bizarre twist.

[Eva]

And I didn't know this, but I guess when bodies would. I don't know. Once you got to the skull of the body that was executed there, they would carve the initials into the skull. And so the skull always had EK as the initials in it, and his name was Edward Kelly. Fun fact. Ned is a nickname of Edward. Blows my mind every time. Not Nedward. So they thought, oh, E.K. edward Kelly must be him, since it wasn't him. Based on forensics, it has to be this other guy that was executed there named Ernest Knox, because he was the only other one executed who had EK Carved into his skull.

[Christine]

Oh, I'm glad they were at least able to narrow it down to one other person. That's like a lucky happenstance, I suppose.

[Eva]

And they ended up confirming with DNA that Ned is buried properly at the other prison. Like, nothing.

[Christine]

They returned the head to the right grave.

[Eva]

I don't know what happened there. But you know what's weird is that the. They looked at its. At the bottom of it, at the bottom of the skull, and they can tell that it was sawed off of a skeleton. So, like, someone really took this thing intentionally?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yikes. Like, and not. I mean, obviously intentionally, but, like, I.

[Eva]

Don'T know where it is now, though. I don't know where it is now, but it's not at the museum anymore.

[Christine]

No questions asked.

[Eva]

Okay, now, I'm so sorry this is so long. But now onto the ghosts. The main thing people experience is sounds. There's cell door slamming. There's footsteps. There's warden's keys jingling. There's shackles. There's people talking and shouting, which is ironic because they couldn't talk in life. People also regularly hear a woman crying in empty halls. And the cry gets louder, and lo. And then you turn around, and no one's there. That's. That's thought to be Elizabeth, the woman who was maybe innocent and the first woman executed in Victoria. Some say that they can hear her even asking for help, or they can feel her whispering to them in their ear.

[Christine]

Oh, that's, like, scary, because it feels like she's still trapped there or whatever. I don't like that. That's sad.

[Eva]

Even the guards of the time, when this was a prison or when this was a jail, they would say that they'd hear weird things and feel a dread. Would feel dread in the air and hear whispers in their ears of people asking for help.

[Christine]

The help thing is really unsettling.

[Eva]

Another common experience here is in sensing residual feelings, people experience a lot of deep sorrow, a lot of grief, a lot of nausea.

[Christine]

Some people out by.

[Eva]

Some people would even faint in the cells. And I feel like that's maybe, like, if people died by suicide, maybe you're, like, feeling them passing on in some way. People also feel faint when they see Ned Kelly's death mask.

[Christine]

Is it actually. Oh, no, not his skull. His death mask. I was like, is that even his? Okay.

[Eva]

People say there's something really off about it and that the eyes of it will follow you.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh.

[Eva]

Another thing that happens is that cameras, if they capture something really spooky, apparently the footage will delete itself.

[Christine]

I love that unlike some situations or places where, like, the image will just be all black or will never show up, the ghosts are like, delete it. Like, we. We missed our chance to block it. Now let's delete it.

[Eva]

Yeah, it's common for people to see apparitions through the building. Many. There are many, many shadow figures lurking inside the cells. There's apparitions of the wardens. There is another spirit of a man in a long coat patrolling the area. And they think that's one of the higher up guards.

[Christine]

A long coat is like not good. Not cute. No.

[Eva]

That also tells you that it was cold as in there and nobody else who had.

[Christine]

Right. They're wearing like long trench coats and they're, they're just to the elements. Yeah. Especially with babies in there.

[Eva]

Like what? The shadows on the walls seem to move on their own or disappear and then reappear in other cells.

[Christine]

Bye.

[Eva]

I know.

[Christine]

So it's like now they're shouting, now they're walking through. They're doing all the things they couldn't do.

[Eva]

Yeah. They were prisoners darting around, probably socializing. There's also a lady in blue. Different.

[Christine]

Okay, blue stone lady in blue.

[Eva]

She's the it girl. I know we're a lot of them here.

[Christine]

She I, that's Australia, you know, flipping it on its head.

[Eva]

Finally, something different lady in blue. She glides down the halls. But she's oddly quiet about it. There's an eeriness to her.

[Christine]

Oddly quiet about it. Are they sometimes not quiet about gliding down the halls?

[Eva]

If I were trying to glide down anything, you'd hear me going, okay.

[Christine]

Well, yes, but you're also not a spectral entity with no mass. So I like, I'm like, what is. I mean, maybe usually you hear like a swishing sound. I don't know.

[Eva]

Fair enough. Well, she appears to have no expression on her face, which makes it even creepier.

[Christine]

I don't like that.

[Eva]

The worst ones visually are these dark outlines of people hanging out in the doorways. And what's creepy about them is that it looks like they have rotting skin coming off of their skeletons.

[Christine]

So it's like a zombie looking thing.

[Eva]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, that's. This feels like really just heavy, dark like shadow figure energy.

[Eva]

It's one thing to be first of all in a haunted jail. Then at night, then you see a shadow in a cell and then you look over and it's actually dripping rotting skin.

[Christine]

It's like. And it's looking at you saying, help.

[Eva]

Oh.

[Christine]

And suddenly it's asking you for help.

[Eva]

Or there, there.

[Christine]

It's really unsettling.

[Eva]

The gallows are said to be the worst energy on the property. I wonder why. And apparitions of inmates are seen by the area. People have felt someone staring at them here. They can Hear voices muttering. They can hear crying. Some have claimed to have been shoved here. Some have seen an apparition lingering here that vanishes if you approach it.

[Christine]

It.

[Eva]

Some feel themselves losing air and struggling to breathe here. They have also said that they feel something pulling them downward, as if the trap door is opening underneath their feet.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh, oh.

[Eva]

Other people have said that the floor or the ground seems to move on its own and sway as if it's a trapdoor. Oh, and one apparition of a guard near the gallows is said to come up to people's ears and whisper to jump.

[Christine]

Holy.

[Eva]

Interestingly, there used to be other apparitions seen in the yard, but after the reburials, they aren't there anymore, which means they're in another prison cemetery.

[Christine]

Well, maybe it means they've moved on. Now they're. Maybe their souls are at rest. I don't know.

[Eva]

Let's.

[Christine]

Let's be. Let's look at it the most positive way. Sorry, the. I need a moment to kind of like, like, internalize and, like, integrate what you just said to me. So, yeah, you take a drink of your iced tea. Let me think about jump. I didn't enjoy that part.

[Eva]

That was crazy. That was. Actually, I would say I am grateful for my 3am researching because I didn't see that anywhere and I wouldn't have if I didn't stay up until three in the morning. And I couldn't stop researching that to.

[Christine]

See that at 3 in the morning.

[Eva]

I. I heard it on. On one of the videos I was watching, and I went, oh, thank God. Like, I'm so glad I have that.

[Christine]

Just for the witching hour.

[Eva]

But there are moments where I'm like, had I not gone so hyper fixated on this, like, I wouldn't have known.

[Christine]

That that happened doing this show too, because it's like, I listen to so many different podcasts and everybody kind of has their own take, obviously, and that's why I love it. Even different. Even the same story. But, like, when, you know, we can. I love being able to dig in and, like, find details that other people wouldn't really, like, care about. But it's, like, interesting to us, I guess. Or, like, I'd want to share it with you. Yeah, I don't know, something fun about.

[Eva]

That that I. I would want to know about that. And also, if I'm ever going to go there, I want to be warned that, like, I might hear that, you.

[Christine]

Know, I mean, I'll be honest. Oh, that's what I was gonna Say, but then you caught me off guard with the jump thing, and I got totally, I don't know, blindsided. But the thing I was gonna say is that I don't think I could be ever talked into going there. Like, I don't say that lightly because there are many places. I mean, I've been that. We've been to Sally House. We've been to Bobby Mackie's, where I didn't want to go at first. Like, I've been places where I've thought I don't want to go there. Other. I think this is one. It's the. It's the, like, absorbing the emotions and stuff that I like. I doesn't. I. It's really. It's hard enough for me to get other people's emotions, like, off of me, let alone being, like, you know, attacked by unseen spiritual energy.

[Eva]

Here's a question D. What's a scarier situation for you being in a. They keep in mind, this place does look a lot like Alcatraz. Would you prefer going into a horribly haunted. Has this background kind of jail where it's, like, weirdly small or weirdly big because they're both scary in different ways. Oh, okay.

[Christine]

Because I think I would talk myself. Even if I don't think it's a ghost, I would talk myself into, like, oh, someone else is on the property. Like, I think I'd be scared that, like, someone else was like, a. Like a burglar. Like, I think I would talk myself into the true crime aspect of, like, maybe I'm not alone. If I heard something, I feel like, with how spooky.

[Eva]

Like, because some places are so big, it feels, like, overwhelmingly spread out, but when it's small, it's, like, really concentrated and everything.

[Christine]

Right, right.

[Eva]

Every room feels creepy versus, like, oh, maybe there's no corner over there.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eva]

And this. This one apparently is a smaller jail than other jails.

[Christine]

Just a whole city block. That's all.

[Eva]

Just a whole city block. But keep in mind, they. When they started closing down, a lot of it. A lot of it went to a university. A lot of it became, well, in.

[Christine]

Like, a city block nowadays. I mean, you see these. These prisons, and they're these massive complexes. So, yeah, I guess it's really not that big.

[Eva]

I think now there's only one, like, the museum itself. And if you were to go visit, it's only one of the wings now or one of the cell blocks. It's like, it's only a fraction of what it used to be because a Lot of it got turned into something else.

[Christine]

Right.

[Eva]

But anyway, so that's. Yeah, that's a horrible area. The gallows is off of in the jail. This is. This one really freaks me out is that some people have felt something like using force on them. But usually you would think, oh, they're, they're pushing me or shoving me. But at this jail, people feel like something's pulling them into rooms.

[Christine]

Into rooms. Like yanking them, like into a cell or something.

[Eva]

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

[Christine]

By. Bye bye, bye, bye bye.

[Eva]

Others have sworn that they were locked inside a cell despite the door having no locks on it at all. One person on Reddit said that they had a school field trip here and they were. And they were. I know, can you imagine? And they were locked in a room or they went into one of the cells and closed the door behind them. The door had no locks. It was like super easy breezy to open and close. But as soon as they closed it, they could not get out to save their life. They were struggling and yanking on that thing and ripping at it, and nothing was happening. They were checking all over to see if there were any locks that could have accidentally. And there was no reason for this thing to be locked. They started calling for help, and eventually they assumed it was a ghost. And they basically said like, yo, I'm just a kid. Like, let me out. And the door opened by itself.

[Christine]

Okay. So someone had a little bit of a conscience and they he. Because they were like, yeah, kids are allowed. Didn't, you know, don't you know we house kids here? Oh, they're probably like, you actually belong on the third floor. Get yourself up there.

[Eva]

But, well, like, not only did the door open by itself, but he tested the door again, and it was just like, super wiggly and there's no way to lock.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[Eva]

And he ended up going over to his classmates and being like, why didn't anybody help me? Like, I was locked in this room. Or like, maybe I think he thought that some of his friends thought it was funny and were like. And like, ignored the door or something.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eva]

Or locked it for, like, locked it to keep him in. And the whole field trip was like, we were looking for you and we couldn't find you.

[Christine]

See?

[Eva]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And you know, like, these cells have, like, you could probably hear someone screaming from inside, I assume. Like, I mean, I don't know that.

[Eva]

For a fact, but I wonder if they put. It's able to put an error over people where, like, it's silent. Like it used to be.

[Christine]

Well, is this one of the solitary cells or is this, like.

[Eva]

I don't know, just.

[Christine]

Okay. Because it. Maybe it was. I don't know.

[Eva]

The most active room in the jail, which I'm going to end on, is cell 17. So there was a fire, apparently, that got rid of a lot of documentation that would have told us what happened in each of these cells and all who died. And so we don't really know the history of what happened in each individual cell. Cell. But this place is called the epicenter of activity of the jail. And a lot of videos I watched show you, like, what it looks like in there, and it absolutely looks like a place that is. It's nothing but haunted. One woman tried to leave the cell one time and she.

[Christine]

Oh, it's a cell. Right, Sorry, I was like, what room? All right, sorry.

[Eva]

Cell 17.

[Christine]

No, yeah, you said it. 17. Okay.

[Eva]

Apparently it's like really, like, unassuming. It's like on a random part of the second floor. Like, it's like not. It doesn't look any different than any other cell, but for some reason, this one's wild, weird. One woman felt a. Felt her own necklace unlatch off of her when she was wearing it. Like something grabbed her neck and when she looked down at the ground, her necklace pocketing. Yeah, maybe. And one former employee said that there's a quote from them. Highly trained dogs start acting erratically, refuse to enter, and have to be taken outside to calm down. People have said, cell.

[Christine]

Yeah, forget it. I don't know. I don't like that. That's probably where the portal is.

[Eva]

People have said it's very uncomfortable in there. They don't go in there alone. They probably use the buddy system. They say that the cell feels like someone is in there with them. They feel fingers touching them, and there's a quote. Bone chilling cold to it.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Eva]

People hear raspy breathing in there. They also feel like the air is the room and they start suffocating as if they're dying. Some have seen so many shadows at once in that cell that they thought the cell was actually full of people on a tour. And when they looked again, it was totally empty. People will get grabbed in there, scratched, feel a weird pressure on their chest, and they will feel a hand on their throat choking them. One source said that men, whenever they go in there, feel like they're being shoved out of the room, while the women feel like they're being trapped in the room. And they're trapped or they're unable to Leave for some reason. But the men are getting kicked out the. Yeah, it just sounds really awful. Apparently their shadows just lurk all over the walls. You hear voices in there. It's just a really honest feeling.

[Christine]

Almost feels like that's where everyone. All the spirits were. Almost like corralled.

[Eva]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe it was like.

[Christine]

Do you think there's like a ghost? You know how you hear sometimes? Maybe this is a stretch, but you know how you hear sometimes of like, oh, there's one spirit that's stronger or more evil. That's like holding them hostage in a way.

[Eva]

Yeah.

[Christine]

You wonder if there's some sort of like thing like locking them in this space and I don't know, 100.

[Eva]

I totally think so.

[Christine]

Weird.

[Eva]

There's certainly like the alpha ghost, if there is one.

[Christine]

Right. Like, I. I feel like you hear about that and it's kind of disturbing, but it makes some sense.

[Eva]

I guess it's like the haunted room that's even haunted to the other ghosts. It's like, well, we don't.

[Christine]

Yeah. Like they don't even want to be in there. There they like warn you of it. Yeah.

[Eva]

So the jail, like I said, is now a museum. There are a bunch of different tours you can take there. I think there's like six or seven tours. One of them is an after hours paranormal tour. There's a self guided audio tour like Alcatraz. There's another one called like the Watchers or the Watch Guard tower tour or something. And they literally treat you like the prisoners and lock you up.

[Christine]

Up. Like, okay.

[Eva]

It's for those thrill seekers out there that are not me, I suppose.

[Christine]

Yeah, not today.

[Eva]

So. But you get like the prison experience, which I don't know if I would call it that unless you're getting like 50, 50 lashes on a flogging rack, but. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Eva]

Those who do visit, they claim that when they get home. This would be your worst part of this. When they get home, they feel like something has followed them home. Home. And it lingers in the corners of their rooms. They feel like something's staring at them. They have weird nightmares for many nights after being there. They hear voices whispering to them in their beds and they see shadows throughout their house. If you would like this experience. Oh, head on over to the old Melbourne jail.

[Christine]

Ew. It's like creepy. It's like they kind of linger and then they fade away from you after you. Like after a few days. I don't.

[Eva]

I'll tell you, Christine, the probably the worst, creepiest feeling I've Ever had had was us driving from. Yeah.

[Christine]

I mean, literally, m. We never. We weren't together. We weren't in the same car. All three of us had different cars. And we to this day agree that was the scariest ghost hunt.

[Eva]

The drive. The drive home from the Queen Mary did separately. I. I couldn't see it with my eyes, but I know there was someone sitting in the car with me, and there were.

[Christine]

It hated us. The cars were full, like. And we were not communicating at this point. Like, we were all going home. Bas.

[Eva]

I have children thinking about it.

[Christine]

Yeah. And then, like, it wasn't until way later we were doing the show, we were like, do you guys also feel sort of like we brought an entire crew of people and, like, we all felt that way? It was.

[Eva]

I remember demanding that we go to a second place in between our homes or our hotels. And so that's why we went to Denny's, because I was like. I kind of, if possible, when I tricked him into thinking this is where we live, so they stay here. And that Denny's was really fudgeing weird, too. The whole.

[Christine]

Like, it was a thin place. I swear to God. We went to this Denny's, and it was like in this huge fog. Like, you could barely see. And then we go in. Like, no one, like, seated us. Us. And we're kind of like. And you asked for chocolate milk. And they're like, we don't have that or something. We were like, what is this? Like, this place is so weird.

[Eva]

To this day, I'm convinced that. That Denny is burned down 40 years ago.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah, it felt. And then everyone turned to look at us, and we were like, what the.

[Eva]

It really. I've never. It felt like in a dream. It felt like being in a dream. Because I. Christine's not lying. The fog. Was the fog so bad.

[Christine]

Like, fever. Fever dream type feeling, like, like, Thin place, Twilight Zone feeling I've ever felt.

[Eva]

I think the fog was so bad that I thought about pulling over. Like, it. Like, you couldn't see. The only thing you could see was this Denny's. We go in there. Nobody's talking to us. It really felt like we probably were just to another person on the road. They probably saw the three of us just, like, standing in a circle in a parking lot. But, like, we thought we were at a Denny's. Like, it. It was.

[Christine]

So we all gathered around Eva's old Fiat, and we were like, it was.

[Eva]

But I. I imagine that's the feeling you get at this jail where, like, when you're leaving. Something is obviously in the car with you.

[Christine]

And I remember blasting my dad wrote a porno and being like, this will help.

[Eva]

I remember all of us calling each other on the way home to be like, are you okay? Because, like, I was.

[Christine]

No, I called you because. Do you remember that? I was like, farthest north and there was this police car. I'd never seen this. Since then, I've heard of this being a thing, but they were doing the traffic control where they pulled into the highway and started doing, like, these weaving. Huge, like, weaving. And I'd never seen that. And I was the first car in line. And so all of a sudden, this cop. I'm already, like, so on edge. Then this cop cars pulls up, starts, like, weaving around, and I'm like, what is going on? Like, I'd never seen that before. So I called you guys, being like, what's happening? Nobody knew. I. And I eventually figured out that is a real thing that happens. But in the moment, I was like, I'm gonna die today.

[Eva]

I think it was terrifying. It was a bad night anyway. I feel like that's what it's like going to this jail. So good luck. Anyway.

[Christine]

I'm gonna maybe pass. Wow. Good story, though we don't go to Australia.

[Eva]

OMG. The OMG. The old Melbourne jail.

[Christine]

That's the OMG. That's they call it. If it reminds me of 19 crimes, I bet you there's some connection.

[Eva]

This podcast is sponsored by the crisp, refreshing, Angry Orchard. Listen, guys, there's a. Listen, guys. There's a litany of things that we shouldn't get angry about, but let's be honest. Sometimes it's hard not to be. I was angry today that Hank decided to fall asleep on my face at six in the morning and then kick me in the eyes.

[Christine]

So how good.

[Eva]

You know, there's things to be angry about, but. But you don't always have to to.

[Christine]

Be, you know what? And then when. When I'm feeling angry about something or, like, getting worked up, I'm like, oh, wow, yeah, let me open an angry orchard. And then I feel so much better.

[Eva]

Yeah, take my anger. Use it. Use it for yourself, specifically. Everyone do that, please, and get an angry orchard. Feel good. Feel chill and refreshed and not get, you know, pissed off like I was at 6 in the morning with broken eyes. Just have a tasty orchard.

[Christine]

Grab an angry Orchard cider today. Don't get angry. Get orchard. Please drink response responsibly. You know, I love to wear my devices while I sleep, so I Can monitor whether I'm alive in the morning, etc, see how I'm sleeping. Sometimes I get yelled at and I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm trying, but ever since I got my Helix mattress when we moved into this house, I have not had the back issues that I used to have. I sleep better. Blaze sleeps better. We got that thing before Helix was ever a sponsor. I feel like that is like, it speaks for itself. But, yeah, we just, we love our mattress and we don't think we're going back anytime soon.

[Eva]

I also am obsessed with my Helix sleep mattress. The worst thing that I've had to deal with once I hit my 30s was back pain. And to know that I'm sleeping on a mattress where I'm not going to wake up and kind of wonder if my skeleton is cracked in half. That's what I'm saying.

[Christine]

You need a. You need a wearable device to tell you in the morning.

[Eva]

I don't need a wearable device enough. My skeleton feels cracked. But I could always use a little something. Something to remind me, like, oh, hey, you actually had a. A good night's sleep. So thank you. Thank you, Helix, for, you know, my spine being aligned. Oh, look at that.

[Christine]

We do. We do. Thank you for that. That is something you've given a lot of people, I think. And, you know, you don't get enough credit for that. So thank you.

[Eva]

Go to helixsleep.com drink for 27 off site, wide exclusive for listeners. And that's why we drink.

[Christine]

That's helixsleep.com drink for 27, off site, wide exclusive for listeners of. And that's why we drink. Helixleep.com/drink. Alrighty. I have a story today. This is the story of Jade Jenks and Tom Merriman. And it is twisty tourney. Okay, so buckle up. We rewind to January 1, 2021. A call comes into the San Diego Sheriff's Department, and the caller identifies himself as Adam Cipliak. He feels a little uncomfortable. He's like, I don't know what to do, but I think I have to report court a murder. Dispatch is like, can you explain what you're talking about? He says, my friend Jade and I believe Jade Jenks and he had dated in the past, who was 36 years old. His friend Jade. She called him on New Year's Eve, 2020, to ask him to come help her at her house in Solana beach, which is roughly 30 minutes north of San Diego. And what she told him was, I just need some help. With my stepdad, 64 year old Tom Merriman. And Jade lived next door to her stepdad and, like, took care of him, him in his older years. So it wasn't, like, unreasonable that she call him and ask for help. But when Adam arrived, he told investigators that Jade told him Tom was dead and she had killed him.

[Eva]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

His body, she said, was in the backseat of her Toyota 4Runner. And she asked Adam if he could help move his body inside the bedroom so she could stage it as an accidental death.

[Eva]

Oh.

[Christine]

Adam, according to his story, basically freaked out. Told Jade he could not get mixed up in whatever she had done. He had his own child to raise. He was like, I don't want to be part of this. And he was also, like, totally disoriented because Jade was very close with her stepdad and everybody knew this, but at the same time, he was like. I mean, she outright told me that she killed him. Like, I have to report this, right? So, yeah, yeah. It's like an awkward position and like, you know, you feel like it can't be true, but also, like, well, also it's like, damn.

[Eva]

It's like you're Was. They were friends. Is that what their relationship was?

[Christine]

Yeah, I think they had dated in the past, but at this point they were friends.

[Eva]

It sucks. Cause it's like, I know you thought you could come to me, but now I unfortunately have to, like, tell the police. I'm so sorry.

[Christine]

Yeah, it feels. And so. Exactly. And I think he kind of had that weird, like, crisis of conscience, you know, and so he spent all night deciding what to do. And he agonized over it, was up all night. Finally in the morning, he decided call 911 and report this. He said he was scared to death when he left Jade's house. He refused to even look in her vehicle's window on the way out because he's like, I don't even want to know, you know, if this is true. And he was so freaked out that he went home and called 911 the next day. So technically, when he called 91 1, like, he couldn't confirm that he was dead. Right. He just could confirm that she told him he was dead. And so. So police officers did go to Tom's home in Solana beach to do a wellness check. And when they knocked, no one answered. And they went in and found nothing. Tom and Jade, like I said, live next door to each other. And an officer, as they're kind of looking through Tom's house, notices that Jade's SUV is pulling out of the driveway of her house next door, and so they stop her right away. I mean, bad time to go. Bad time to go out. I would say.

[Eva]

Going to the post office. Yeah, right.

[Christine]

I feel like maybe hide, but whatever. Okay. So I. I don't know. I mean, I think I'm just. I'm too much of a hermit to even, like, imagine. But so she decides, you know, I'm gonna. I guess, just get away from this whole mess. And she jumps in the car, and they stop her right away. Now they pull her over, and they say, hey, do you know where your stepdad is? And she says, no, I have no clue. She willingly accompanied the officers to the police station, where she insisted she had not seen Tom since the day before, when she had picked him up from a rehabilitation center and brought him home. So after a brief interview, Jade requested a lawyer and refused to speak any further. And she was eventually released. And the police, like, started their search for Tom in earnest, and they, you know, started canvassing the neighborhood. There are these two neighbors that were also featured in the 48 Hours episode. Their names are George and Ramona, and they're, like this elderly couple, and they're. They're like. You can just tell. They're kind of like the nosy Nellies of the neighborhood. They're like, we saw them arrive at 12, you know, and so they're, like, being interviewed by 48 Hours, like, standing in the front yard, like, we saw this happen. And it's just like George and Ramona.

[Eva]

You know, and also just, you know, Ramon. Like, the name Ramona tells me all I need to know about Ramona.

[Christine]

Exactly. I thought so. I thought you'd understand.

[Eva]

She has the intel, and it's exactly where she wants to, and she's ready to spill.

[Christine]

You know, just bring a news crew, and she'll tell you everything. And so they did. So the four. And I love that it's both of them, though, you know, Like, George is like, oh. And I saw that. Like, you know, they're meant to be together. Like, they're just. They work as a team. I love it. So they got this 48 hours cameo and stuff, but at the time, they. They did tell investigators, yes, they had seen Jade bring her stepfather home December 31st, so New Year's Eve. And they said, actually he looked extremely unwell. They said he was trying to get out of the car with this sort of. Sort of like walker, but he could barely. Barely stand. George, you know, for all of his snooping, said he looked like hell. Okay, so George has a pin.

[Eva]

George. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. So they said he. He looked really rough, but he had a lot of health issues, so they didn't. They weren't totally surprised by this. Tom had suffered from chronic liver and heart problems, and he had been sick for a long time. Time. And he had actually fallen on December 15th in his home. And Jade had rushed him to the hospital. And it was now that Jade was finally picking him up on New Year's Eve from the rehabilitation center. And because it was 2020 COVID protocol, she hadn't seen him from December 15th to the 31st. Wow. And that's the day she went and picked him up, brought him home. They saw him climbing out of the car, looking real bad. Yeah. And that was their version of events. They never saw Thomas. Tom again. After speaking with Jade, police spent the rest of the day searching Tom's house for any clue to where he could have been, where he ended up, as well as any evidence that maybe something had happened to him. And they were there all night, but found absolutely nothing. So it was early morning, January 2nd, when one of the investigators noticed a pile of garbage in Tom's driveway. There were, like, cardboard boxes, like, just kind of junk, like, piled on top of each other.

[Eva]

Trash, trash pile, trash pile.

[Christine]

And they had ignored this pile because they'd just been walking past it as they went in and out of the house. But this time, the officer decided to give it a closer look. And she moved a few items aside, and suddenly she saw a body just. Just discreetly hidden under some trash right there in the driveway. It was Tom. He had been wrapped in a blanket, and he was still in his pajamas with a hospital bracelet on his wrist.

[Eva]

Oh, my own.

[Christine]

Jade's neighbors, you know, George and Ramona, said, oh, yes, she actually told us about the pile of trash. Jade actually mentioned it. She. She said on New Year's Eve, oh, hey, sorry. I know I made kind of a mess out there. I'll clean it up.

[Eva]

I wonder if she said any. Well, so he wasn't dead yet. At that time.

[Christine]

He was.

[Eva]

Okay, because I was. I wonder if he was going to say something, if. If they were going to say something about, like, the smell. And she wanted to preemptively be like, I know it's bad. Sorry. It'll get clean cleaned up.

[Christine]

She basically just said, oh, sorry about the mess out there. I promise I'll clean that up. And they just never. They didn't. They, like, really didn't think anything of it. They were like, oh, no worries.

[Eva]

Okay.

[Christine]

You know, interesting. And it just seemed like really a wild plot twist because they just, he was right there in plain sight and they had no clue. Jade's neighbors said, yeah, like, you know, she apologized about it. We didn't think twice. But now with Tom dead and abandoned beneath a pile of trash in his own driveway, that Jade had said is, is like her pile of trash, right? Like she told the neighbors, oh, sorry about the mess. I made, like, clearly, like all arrows pointing to Jade, right? They're like, okay, clearly she's guilty. So she's arrested under suspicion of Tom's murder, but she refuses to speak to the police without a lawyer. While she's arranging legal representation, investigators start building a case against her, which is not easy because it just doesn't make sense because everybody they talk to is like, no, they were so close. Like, Jade and her stepdad, dad were very close. She cared for him. He had married her mother when she was 14 and they quickly bonded as father and daughter. Even when Tom and her mother got divorced, they like, maintained a relationship. And it was such a strong Bond that in 2020, when Covid hit, she moved next door to like help care for him and be close to him during the pandemic, right? Because she knew he needed some help. And they called each other. She called him dad, and her biological father is still alive, but even so, she called him dad. He called her his daughter.

[Eva]

Daughter.

[Christine]

And everybody who knew them thought like, this just makes no sense. And so police were completely stumped. Now, during his life, actually, I guess later on in his life, after his retirement, Tom co founded a non profit with his best friend called Butterfly Farms.

[Eva]

Okay.

[Christine]

And he and his best friend, Pat Flanigan, they wanted to dedicate the life last decade of their lives to butterfly conservation. And this was like their whole mission. Maybe that's what you can donate to next time.

[Eva]

I mean, honestly, don't even get me started on butterflies.

[Christine]

I'm not a fan.

[Eva]

You're onto something there.

[Christine]

I knew it. People who knew Tom admired his commitment to nature. Like, he just seemed like a really, like, grounded, lovable guy, very compassionate character about the earth. And meanwhile, Jade was so warm and she cooked dinner for him every night. Like, they just had a very close bond. She worked as a, as an interior designer and had actually done work on some of the neighbors homes, probably George and Ramona included. Above all else, she just loved Tom and took care of him, especially all his medical stuff with his kidney problems. So now they're thinking, well, if Jade did kill her stepfather, which it seeming. It seems like she sure did. We. We have to figure out why. We have to find out the motive. And when Jade told her story, her lawyer insisted that Jade's only crime was failure to act appropriately when Tom died tragically and accidentally. So this is Jade's version of events. Okay. According to Jade, when Tom left the rehabilitation center on December 31, he was in a lot of discomfort and told her he had not slept at all. She said he'd been contacting her by phone since 6:30am requesting Cody, like narcotic cough medicine to help him sleep. And when she finally picked him up at 11, he immediately started taking the generic for prescription Ambien, a sleep medication prescribed a strong sleep medication prescribed to him by a doctor in the rehabilitation center. And he also took some of Jade's prescription pain meds that she had had in the suv.

[Eva]

Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. On the way home, Jade stopped at a shopping center to pick up supplies for a painting project she needed to do at home. And because Tom was getting more and more groggy, she just let him, like, sit in the car for a few minutes. By the time they got home, he could barely get out of the SUV by himself. And this is when, presumably, George and Ramona spotted him trying to climb out.

[Eva]

Of the car when he looked like hell.

[Christine]

Yeah, looked like hell. To quote directly. Yes. So Jade tried to help Tom out, but she wasn't strong enough to support his weight, and he was barely responsive. So she said she drove Tom back to the rehabilitation center to ask for assistance, but they wouldn't accept Tom back in, and Jade couldn't enter because of COVID 19 precautions. And so she was kind of like, totally stuck here, unsure of what to do. Jade called multiple friends for help trying to get Tom into the house. But it was New Year's Eve, and everyone was busy, had plans, had family. She did say that her friend Adam, the one who made the 911 call, did show up to her house, but Tom's condition scared him, and so he left without helping her. Which obviously is where they're stored. Stories conflict.

[Eva]

Sure.

[Christine]

At a loss. Jade says she brought pillows and a blanket out to the suv, tucked Tom in for the night, expecting he would just sleep off the meds. But when she checked on him first thing in the morning, she found him dead, having apparently suffered an overdose. So Jade was in full shock. She didn't know what to do. She became terrified that she'd be blamed for his death because she left him in the SUV overnight. She thought it would look better if he were in his bed and, like, had. Had died by this accident. So she wanted to move him inside, but she still couldn't. Especially now that it's just dead weight, right? Like, she couldn't lift him. And so in a complete panic, she apparently dragged him out of the back seat, laid him down in the driveway, and covered his body with garbage just to, like, have a temporary cover.

[Eva]

Not a good look.

[Christine]

He remained there for 24 hours until police discovered him. The glaring problem with her story, though, was how drastically it conflicted with Adam's story. His nine on one call and then his subsequent tale of what happened. So Jade claimed Adam had seen Tom alive and it had freaked him out how, like, unwell he was. Adam claimed he never saw Tom at all because Jade said he was dead. So very different accounts here. And even if Adam did see Tom and was alarmed by how unwell Tom looked, that didn't make sense that he would call 911 the next day and say. Said like. Say, like, I have a murder to report. Like, it just doesn't quite add up. What I haven't noted yet, though, is that Adam had told investigators that Jade had actually given him the specifics of the murder. She told him she had used drugs to sedate Tom and then strangled him to death.

[Eva]

That's crazy. Okay. That's wild. Wow.

[Christine]

So investigators were confident that Tom's autopsy would support this story, and they're thinking, okay, we already figured out who did it. We don't necessarily know why, but, you know, now we have the way he was killed, but when the results came back, they did not support this theory. So the medical examiner ruled the cause of death to be acute zolpidem intoxication. So basically an overdose of Ambien.

[Eva]

Okay.

[Christine]

And what's more, there were no signs of strangulation or asphyxiation at all.

[Eva]

Yeah, that's the weird. That's the weirdest part of it all is, like, why are you claiming you killed him? One and two and a more. More intense way, like, you could have, like, you could have, quote, gotten away with it or, like, would have had no ramifications if it was just medically induced. So why are you making it worse for yourself? You know?

[Christine]

But it's like, then did he say that? Like, did Adam say that in the call? Like, Right, right. Because it's hearsay. It's like, he said she told him that. You know, it's like, then, you know, that's where you get kind of the bogged down in the details. So they didn't have proof that he was strangled. That was kind of a blow to the prosecution. And without definitive proof that he was murdered at all, they were kind of like, in a standstill. And at this point, they could not even figure out why she would have murdered this man that she just had cared for for years and loved so much, you know, who. Whom she called dad. So they took her phone and took a closer look at her phone, and on the phone they found. Found some answers. Okay. In distraught texts sent to her friends in the days before Tom's death, she had told a disturbing story. On December 23, while her stepdad was in the rehabilitation center, or at least at the hospital for. For after his fall, Jade had been cleaning his home as usual. She wanted it to look nice for him when he returned. And she bumped the mouse connected to his desktop computer, which had been in sleep mode. And when computer woke up and the screensaver appeared, Jade saw breasts. And it took her a moment to realize they were her breasts.

[Eva]

Okay.

[Christine]

It was a picture of her in the shower that she had taken with a previous partner years ago. And she was in total shock. She logged onto the computer and she found hundreds of pictures. Naked photographs, all of her.

[Eva]

Oh, no.

[Christine]

On her father's computer.

[Eva]

Oh, no.

[Christine]

Like, it's. It's something that, like, I can't even begin to.

[Eva]

Yeah.

[Christine]

No need consider, like, to. To wrap my mind around how that would feel. You know what I mean? Like, just the. Like, betrayal and, like, the sickening. Like, I just. It's.

[Eva]

And. And maybe you're gonna get here. Was this just a sexual thing? Or do we find out later that maybe he was, like, in love with her or something? Like, does it. Does it. Do we know any more?

[Christine]

No. Context? No. Okay.

[Eva]

Not that it matters. Just what. Just for the.

[Christine]

I mean, for what it's worth, they. Apparently he had sorted these naked photos into categories by body part. So I feel like.

[Eva]

Oh, okay, so probably romantic love is.

[Christine]

Made out of the question, especially because some of the images were of her as a child. Because, remember, he had met her when she was 14.

[Eva]

Oh, no. Oh, that's so bad. Okay.

[Christine]

The sickening, like, betrayal of this, like, it makes it actually. Like, I get acid in my throat.

[Eva]

That's a rough one.

[Christine]

Vomit. It's. It's so sick. He had made a carousel, arranged to play as a screensaver that shuffled through images of her naked body. Body. Hundreds of them. And Jade had taken these photos over the years with some past boyfriends, but she had no clue, like, where or how he had gotten them. Like, she thought, well, there was a digital camera I used to own that I lost years ago, or I thought I lost it. Like, he. Maybe he found the memory card. It is just the most sickening, sickening thing. So she was completely unmoored by this. Again, some of the photos were of her as a child. Like, this is. Is just extremely shocking. And she was overcome by pure horror. She tried to reconcile with what she was seeing with the man she literally called dad. And so she's like, trying to figure this out, the violation.

[Eva]

And not only that, but she like the, the. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but the, the mental toll of like uprooting your life, moving to a place closer to him, feeling responsible for taking him to the hospital, but being like. Like, it's not just like, like, for. Not that this is good either, but it's. It's not like it's. Oh, my dad, who I'm removed from. It's like my dad, who I've changed my whole life in a. To accommodate.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yes, yeah. That I care for in a father, daughter way that I thought we both understood. Like.

[Eva]

Yeah, it's just a more non sexually intimate, which makes it more.

[Christine]

It's pretty sickening.

[Eva]

More personal.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She texted her friend that she was so disgusted, she couldn't bear to undress. She couldn't take a shower. She didn't even want to touch her own skin. She was so revolted. She became terrified by what Tom might do when he came home and discovered she'd seen the photos. Not only was she responsible for his care, like you just mentioned, she lived next door to him. So it's not like she could avoid him, you know, so he was probably.

[Eva]

Like creeping on her through the window and everything too. Like, for all we know. I don't know.

[Christine]

Who knows? I mean, I don't know that, but she. He did have all these photos. Was that he had access? Some.

[Eva]

I mean, it would be my first thought. Like the, the classic, like, guy with a telescope or something. Like, I mean, it's. Who knows?

[Christine]

You don't even need to if they were like that close.

[Eva]

Just creepy. Just like, I would wonder how often were you staring at me and I didn't notice. Like.

[Christine]

Yeah. And so she got really anxious about, like, him coming home and discovering she'd seen the photos. She couldn't avoid him. She told her friend she slept with a knife on the bedside table. She was too afraid to confront Tom alone.

[Eva]

Alone.

[Christine]

And so Jade's Friend connected her with a man named Alan Roach. So Jade sent a message to Alan on Facebook, and he worked as a security guard, but he told Jade that if she had a problem, he could, quote, fix it.

[Eva]

Oh.

[Christine]

So investigators confirmed all these details, including that the photos on Tom's computer were there. They were. That was a real story. She did not invent that she had discovered those photos. They discovered that Tom had actually used these photos of Jade on his computer wallpaper since August 2019, since before she moved there, and then, like, kept. I mean, it's just insane. I mean, it's just sick. They began to worry, though, because, you know, they're prosecuting her as a murderer, right? And, like, they're worrying, oh, well, now she's gonna be, you know, a sympathetic defendant. And we want to focus on the fact that she potentially killed someone rather than let her defense kind of win over a jury, you know, by. By making her the victim, etc. Etc. This is, I guess, part of the line that lawyers have to walk. They basically knew it'd be crucial for them to prove that Jade had killed Tom with premeditation and that she was guilty of first degree murder, regardless of the motive. So whether or not he had naked photos and. And she was obviously victimized and traumatized in that way, they. They needed to find. If they wanted to prove her guilty, they needed to find a way to prove it was premeditated. So at Jade's trial, the court heard Jade's story that Tom died of an accidental overdose overnight in her suv. And she was too scared that, like, he was gonna. Or that she was going to be blamed for that. She was. They. They filmed the whole trial. She was weeping on the stand as she spoke of the photos. I mean, it's, like, chilling to watch. Watch her describe bumping the mouse and, like, seeing the photos appear. She described meeting Tom when she was 14 and feeling like, so sorry, this for some reason hitting me now. But like she said, it's hard to come by someone you just feel that you can trust completely. And I did feel that way. And so, like, the fact that, you know, her biological father is alive and he does come back kind of later in the story, but the fact that she's so much closer with this man and calls him down, dad. Yeah, like, it. The violation is just sickening. And so this was, like, incomprehensible. But she insisted she never planned to harm Tom and was innocent of his. Of his death. She said she only contacted Alan Roach, the security guard, the fixer guy, because she was too terrified to confront Tom about the photos on her own and wanted, like, a man there to back her up. She wanted to tell Tom he had to move away so that she could feel safe in her own home. But she couldn't do it alone. So she wanted Allan to come over and be by her side while she confronted Tom to make her feel safe. That was her story.

[Eva]

Gotcha.

[Christine]

And with no proof that Tom was strangled to death, a secondhand alleged confession, and evidence that Tom collected explicit photographs of Jade, she had a very strong defense. Like, people were gonna be like, well, you know, maybe she has a point. Maybe this was all just a sick accident. And, you know, whatever.

[Eva]

I could see it being an accident. Like, I mean, I. I could believe the.

[Christine]

It's a very good offense.

[Eva]

On top of him being a total creep, like, he overdosed on medication. That was not my responsibility.

[Christine]

And we have not gotten to this yet. But on that note, he also. I want to add that he also had a substance use disorder. And so, you know, it wasn't inconceivable that he would be taking prescription medications, you know, willy nilly, you know, and mixing drugs. So. Yeah, exactly to your point, like, it kind of explains itself in that way. There are just too many weird things, things that don't add up. And when the prosecution showed up for their side of things, it kind of turned the tables because it does seem believable. But then again, we go back to her cell phone, and I'm telling you, people think their cell phone, I mean, me included, people think their cell phones are like, private or whatever. And then you hear these things and you're like, oh, my God, they're just reading all her texts aloud in a courtroom. You know, it's like.

[Eva]

Horrifying.

[Christine]

Yeah, horrifying. But, you know, it showed this totally different story. Okay, because they provided a series of texts, the prosecution did, when Jade picked Tom up at 11am on Dec. 31. Remember, she said he had been calling since 6:30, and she picked him up and he was like, I'm in pain. I haven't slept. I want medicine, I want codeine. And so she picked him up. And that was her version, Right? Well, they're going through her phone, and she did pick him up at 11 and. And around that time, she texted Alan, this fixer guy, the security guard fixer guy, quote, I just dosed the hell out of him.

[Eva]

That's not good. I mean. I mean.

[Christine]

And it just keeps coming. It's like. It's like you're like, one thing is like, ooh. And then it's like, another, another, another, and it starts to get.

[Eva]

That sucks, because I was gonna say the. Like, if that was it, I'd be like. Like, okay. Like, when Allison got her wisdom teeth out, I dose the hell out of her. Like, it's the.

[Christine]

Right, right, right, right.

[Eva]

Like you. It could mean it's like me with Hank and his cbd, whenever we're recording, it's like, oh, I dose the hell out of him, and now he's taking a nap. Like, it could. It could not be that bad if.

[Christine]

Yeah, it could. And actually, that's kind of what she said. She called it poor phrasing. She said, oh, maybe it was just poor phrasing. Sure. And, like, of course it's fishy that she's texting a fixer guy that she doesn't know. Know. Yeah, I like you. It feels weird that you would say that to somebody you don't know, to.

[Eva]

Someone who is implying that problem for you, man.

[Christine]

And you're basically.

[Eva]

It does look like you're like, okay, step one complete. The eagle has landed.

[Christine]

Yeah, precisely. And so that was the first text that they. They shared then. Well, of course they said, okay. They believe this is in reference to the Ambien. In fact, Jade's DNA was discovered on the Ambien packet, and Tom's was not. So it's a subtle difference. But the fact that she said, oh, he was taking his Ambien, and it turns out only her DNA, was it enough? Yeah. Not subtle enough. And so it looked as though Jade had given Tom and, like, therefore dosed out the. Whatever dosage she had given him that Ambien, which, again, was the ruled cause of death. And so this is already looking bad. And one question about this text. She said, it's poor phrasing, but remember when I said, oh, she stopped to pick up some supplies at this shopping center. Center to. She was picking up supplies, and she left him in the car for a few minutes to kind of, like, sleep it off or whatever.

[Eva]

Sure.

[Christine]

So when she went, she did go to the shopping center. And when they're tracking her phone or reading back through her text, at that time, she texted the same guy, Allen quote, stopping at Dixieland to stall.

[Eva]

Girl, girl, girl. What year was this? Like, did. Was texting.

[Christine]

New 2021.

[Eva]

No. Oh, right. She. Yeah, yeah, that. You know, better. Come on.

[Christine]

Like, they're gonna. I mean, it's like, not even in code.

[Eva]

Like, come on. You know.

[Christine]

Sorry, but no, but yeah, it's like.

[Eva]

It'S this is too. This is like a kind of face rookie.

[Christine]

I mean, but also, it's like, I. But then part of me thinks, like, but imagine you go through something so harrowing and, like, soul shattering that your brain can't even keep up with. Like, what? You know what I mean? Like, so I feel like in a certain way, she probably feels detached from reality. I mean, I would, you know, if I were an ENT person that I admired my whole life or so I don't know. I mean, I just want to give that nuance. But, yeah, it's like. Does not look good, right? Like, stopping at Dixieland a stall again, you could maybe, you know, finagle that to mean something else. But of course, prosecutors say, you know, this proves Jade was buying time while the medication sedatives sank in. She also sent Alan a text. Here we go. And this was dug up by Saoirse. Was not in the 48 Hours documentary either. But she sent Allan a text that the situation was going to be like, Weekend at Bernie's, girl.

[Eva]

Come on. And it's like, I'm sorry.

[Christine]

Like, that is so on the nose. I don't think you can even become more on the nose. And if, like, for those of you who are youthful and spry and don't know what that is, or maybe have, like, very high film tastes, Weekend at Bernie's is a classic movie comedy where this guy gets murdered and then they stage it to look like an accidental drug overdose. And then the characters, like, travel around with Bernie's corpse with sunglasses and, like, pretend like they're doing their vacation. They have to pretend he's alive. Right. So that's kind of what she's implying is like, oh, it'll be like puppeteering him. You know, it'll be like, week. A real Weekend at Bernie's.

[Eva]

Like the two of us in a corpse.

[Christine]

Yeah, right. I mean, it's literally. Literally so on the nose. And it's hard to come back from that. And when asked about the trial, you know, she said, well, I was making a joke about, like, moving him inside when he's, like, basically sedated. And I'm like. I mean, I guess, like. I guess it's just when you add all this up, it starts to look so shady. Yeah.

[Eva]

I could see all individually, I could see even the. Just stalling. I'd be like, until you guys go get lunch and he's in traffic. Like, it could be.

[Christine]

Or like, until you're available to come over and help me or whatever, to help me confront Front him, or certainly.

[Eva]

I. I could be convinced otherwise. However, I'm leaning towards this is not a good look. Like.

[Christine]

I mean, it's trick. It's tricky. But, yeah, it starts to get more and more like, oh, gosh, yeah, there's. It's hard to come back from this. And so she said, oh, it was just a joke about, like, because he was so sedated and groggy. So as the afternoon progressed, she apparently, as they went through the text, had sent Alan increasingly panicked messages, including quoting, quote, he's waking up, and quote, can you come over? Alan eventually responded finally and said he couldn't make it, but he would send his friend Brian Solomon. Now, Brian testified in court, he said he arrived at Tom's home at Jade's request and at his friend, his friend Allen's request, and he said Jade asked him to strangle Tom to death. He basically said, jade told me she's. That he's his body. He. There's his body and. Or there he is. I need you to. He's sedated. I need you to strangle him to death. Something along those lines. And Brian apparently went, no, thanks, and just left, but did not contact the police. Although I feel like he probably just wanted to stay out of it. Frankly, I don't know that for sure. But at 3pm that day, Jade texted Alan, quote, he's waking up, and I'm not sure how much longer I can control my. My temper. She sent several more texts, yeah, including he's waking up and getting way more aggressive, so it's way more real. Then I can't carry him home alone, and I can't keep a kicking body in my trunk. And then he's up. I guess I'm on my own. So they brought these. The prosecution brought these and said, hey, nice story, but this does not look good. And when police had arrived on January 1 to do a wellness check, they also noted that Jade texted Alan, remember how she was pulling out of the driveway? And I said, like, it seems like kind of the time to not be pulling out of your driveway, but I guess if you're just not thinking straight, you know, she jumped in the car. Well, at that same time, she texted Alan, lose my number. I'm getting pulled over. And it's like, dude, come on, just delete the whole thing. You know, I don't know. I mean, not that that would have necessarily stopped anything. And not that I want her to get with murder, right? But it's this thing of, like, I guess you're. I mean, I guess you're in such a shock mode, maybe. Again, I don't want to, like, pretend like I know what I would do in this scenario, but it's.

[Eva]

It's also weird to, like, be a. I don't know what the right word is, but to. To look with. To look in on this story as, like, an outsider and to be. I don't mean to be holier than that when it comes to someone's murder, but at the same time, I'm like, I think I could have done this better. Like, I don't. Like, I think I would have. I would have evaded the police for at least one minute more. And, like, I can. I mean, which, like, I don't know why that's, like, my natural way to be. Like. I mean, girl, what are you thinking?

[Christine]

But I think that's human instinct to be. Like, hindsight is 20 20, right? Like, why'd you do that? What were you thinking? And it's like, well, of course, in the moment, maybe you're thinking, I can't even be in this house anymore. Like, right. You know, maybe you're thinking, like, maybe you're not thinking. Maybe you're so detached. Who knows? Like, I. Maybe you're so in shock, but, yeah, it just feels so glaring.

[Eva]

There's some stories you tell where I'm just, like. I don't want to say I think like a murderer, but I think. I think more. More strategic. Like, I. But, yeah, you're right. Like, I'm. I'm also not in the headspace for, like, maybe I'm just so checked out that, like, you've just. I'm not even thinking about a plan.

[Christine]

Familial trauma and all this, you know, and.

[Eva]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Found a dead body in your car, like, as. As good as her story. Yeah, it's. It's.

[Eva]

It's just hard. Human nature is weird. The brains, it is.

[Christine]

And I think that is human nature, hindsight to go, wow, what were you thinking? Like, that's so obvious. So Adam also testified. He. He's the one who called 91 1, and he testified that Jade wanted his help moving Tom's dead body inside, even though that was not what she claimed. So the prosecution's whole argument was like, Jade wants to put Tom in his bed to make the death look like an accidental open overdose. And they actually said she probably would. Like you said earlier, she probably would have gotten away with it if she had moved him inside and had not told anyone. It was just that she had asked so many people for help. Because she couldn't carry him. And then, like, you know, clearly couldn't get somebody to convince anybody to, like, get the job done, so to speak. Yeah. So it's unclear how exactly there was this overdose, but in. In any case, like, it's just looking worse and worse for her. And, you know, they. They argue she probably would have gotten away with it if she had done this and that differently. And apparently, when Adam refused to help, which, of course, unraveled this whole thing, because he's the one who made the initial 911 call that led to the wellness check, apparently, when he first refused to help, Jade tried to move Tom herself. And she actually did this by putting his body, or his body was still in the back seat. And she drove to a nearby hospital where she took a wheelchair and loaded it into the trunk. And the prosecution said, oh, well, she was clearly getting this wheelchair to wheel him inside. Wheel his body inside, because he was already dead by the time she picked up the wheelchair. And Jade was asked also, like, why didn't. If you were at a hospital, why didn't you say, like, hey, I have a dead body with me. I need help, you know? And she said, well, I was still in shock and denial that he was even dead. I didn't want to ask for help because I didn't want to believe I needed help. And so she kind of talked. Talked around that. And the prosecution said, oh, remember that Dixieland stop she made? Well, we actually have the receipts from what she bought that day.

[Eva]

And what was it, like, a knife or something?

[Christine]

It was gloves, towels, nylon cord, and black spray paint. And she did work in interior design, but she tried to explain kind of the, like, project she was doing. And I was like, what? I don't know. It's. It's fishy when you're also saying, like, I'm stalling. I mean, I don't know, maybe.

[Eva]

Maybe I'm stalling and buying duct tape like you couldn't buy gum, you know, like.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's just kind of the nylon cord, the gloves, the towels. It all just feels a little like. I mean, the prosecution definitely ran with it. They called it her murder kit, of course. And when they found the towels, the towels had been tied together into a rope. And they believe this was meant to be a gag. And so just, again, like, really not looking good. Tom's brother, Terence, so essentially her uncle, he testified that after police contacted him looking for Tom, Terence called Tom. But Tom didn't pick up. At this point, he was already dead. But Jade called Him back later to say, oh, Tom's actually suffering from some withdrawal symptoms due to alcohol and drug use and he can't talk talk right now. And like this wasn't too out of the ordinary because I told you earlier, you know, he had alcohol and drug use disorders and had struggled with this. So Taryn said, okay, have him call me as soon as he was able. But he was dead. And so I'm like, why is Jade even calling her uncle to like, yeah.

[Eva]

Just making matters worse.

[Christine]

He's just right. It feels like she's just adding more fuel to this. Like. But to your point, how would you know?

[Eva]

I guess to your point though, maybe she's just not to going thinking right again.

[Christine]

Like, it's hard to apply logic to something that like you're probably. How could you even feel logical when you just found hundreds of nude photos that you probably yourself haven't seen in like a decade suddenly, like, of you as a child on your dad's computer, as you know, I mean, of course. And I just say that again to like point out like the absolute outrageousness and disgustingness of that. Um, so all these people testified, it's not looking good. The jury went into deliberation in the afternoon. They, they broke until next morning to continue. They met at 9am and at 9:30 they had a verdict. So 30 minutes later. And prosecution was nervous. They were like, short verdict doesn't always mean something that we want to hear. But they did find Jade guilty of first degree murder. When the verdict was announced, Jade turned to her lawyer and you could see her go, I don't understand. Like, she's completely shocked. Like, she's like, I don't understand. What are they saying? And he's like, it's happening. You know, you're going. And she's in complete denial and shock. And it's, it's pretty upsetting to watch. Like, what's your context aside?

[Eva]

Did you see her? Like, what's your take on it? Was she like, truly, Was it a bit that she was doing or was she truly.

[Christine]

I mean, she was definitely. She didn't even understand.

[Eva]

Okay.

[Christine]

I think she just didn't expect it. I think she was just totally blindsided by the verdict. Like she just looked at her lawyer and was like, I don't understand. And he was like, it's not good, you know?

[Eva]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And she just, yeah, she was like, totally, totally flabbergasted. And that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Like maybe she did it, but she was like really believed that they would sure believe her story, like, who knows, you know, but you could tell she was definitely shocked, or at least I believe she was. Was. So at the sentencing, Tom's brother Patrick and several other loved ones described Tom as a, as a kind and loving man. But Jade actually spoke at her own sentencing and said that Tom had abused her psychologically since she was a child, that his abuse had progressed to coercion and inappropriate touch. And she said all that trauma had come crashing down when she saw these photos on Tom's computer. Computer. And she maintained her innocence in Tom's death. And so of course they said, like, well, why didn't you bring that up in the trial? Right? Like that he was abusive and, you know, whatever, coercive, all this stuff. And I guess her defense said, well, it was irrelevant because Jade maintained she had nothing to do with Tom's death. But like the prosecution's whole fear was that she would come off as like a victimized victim or as a victim and be, be like amenable to the jury in that way. So I'm a little surprised that they wouldn't use that story earlier. But I mean, again, do I know. But so she did. She did tell that story at the sentencing. And he said the abuse allegations would have been important if Jade had accepted that she had killed her stepdad. But because she didn't kill her stepdad, they thought it was irrelevant because why would that have anything to do with.

[Eva]

I get it. I mean, fair. It is a tactic of like, I.

[Christine]

Don'T want to look like manslaughter, like, oh, she did kill him.

[Eva]

Yeah. If I give you too many reasons and it looks like I'm trying to justify motive.

[Christine]

Exactly, exactly. That's very fair point. So I kind of, I kind of rethink what I said earlier. That's. That's true. So Jade's birth father that I mentioned a couple times, Steve Jenks, he made a statement on Jade's behalf. He was outraged by Tom's violation of Jade's trust and safety. He even said to her, or he even said in his statement, she called him dad. And like, this is her biological father. Father. And he's saying like, she called him dad and this is what he did to her. Throughout the trial, Jade's best friend Heather stayed by her side. Heather did not believe she was capable of killing Tom no matter what he did to her. Truly, she was like, I don't believe it. But In March of 2023, 29 year old Jade Jenks was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. Her attorney Plans to file an appeal. But to this day, she remains in. In prison.

[Eva]

Wow.

[Christine]

And that's the story for now and.

[Eva]

For all we know, because maybe she was having a. A break from reality, if we'll say that, like a. She just snapped from finding something out about her dad. She could have just been. It could have all been a happenstance or preventable in. In some way. That's. Yeah. Just feels weird to know that someone's sitting there and, like, it could have been. Not that I'm trying to justify what. What she did, but I always wonder, like, what would it take for me to snap?

[Christine]

And, like, I just don't think. I just feel like they've. I feel like when I haven't. They disproven that snap theory, though. Like, that you people don't just, like, snap. Like, it.

[Eva]

It's like, I don't know anything about that. Maybe.

[Christine]

I think it's like a much more.

[Eva]

More.

[Christine]

I mean, and I feel like snap also implies, like, just, like, right away, but, like, the fact that she had, what, 15 days to plan this. Right. Or 15 days to, like, pick him up. And you're right.

[Eva]

And she was texting the guy the.

[Christine]

Yeah. And making plans and saying, you know, I have a problem you need to fix. And all this, it's like, it just starts to look like, well, you know, very. He's away for 14 days or however many days it was. And like. Like, then he winds up dead. And then you've texted all these people to come help. And. And I would say also with the strangulation, where they found no evidence of strangulation, and I don't know how true this is. This would be a question for someone with more, like, experience in this field, like. Like Elena or somebody from Morbid. But like they said, because he was presumably unconscious, at least is what the prosecution said. Um, there may have not been any signs of strangulation because he wouldn't have been resisting. Interesting. And they said you could strangle someone with only four pounds of force.

[Eva]

Wow.

[Christine]

That. I was like, okay, but, like, when people are unconscious and get strangled, you can usually still see fingerprints. I don't know. I. I felt. I felt like, a little conflicted about that. I don't know. I'm sure it's. I guess it's possible. But just to explain why the coroner said there was no sign of strangulation, which I find surprising if that is. Although maybe she tried to strain on him and it didn't, and it was just the Ambien that did it. You know what I mean?

[Eva]

I wonder if. I wonder if she ever had any, like, negative feelings about him before seeing the pictures.

[Christine]

And I. And not in, like, a judgmental way, but just curious. Like, did that. Did anything ever rub her the wrong way? Did he ever show, like, looking back, did she feel like she saw signs? Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, you know, when you're in a relationship, you don't see it, and then you leave it, and you kind of, like, your eyes are cleared.

[Eva]

Why? I wonder, too, because to find pictures like that, I. I don't know what that would do to me mentally, but I don't know if it would escalate so quickly to something that intense.

[Christine]

That's.

[Eva]

I think where.

[Christine]

Like, that's where her best friend is. Like, she wouldn't have done this. Like, this doesn't make sense. Yeah. And so it's like, of course, if she were that angry and. And maybe that is what happened. Maybe there was, like, a really long history of abuse. Got, like, totally triggered by seeing this, and it all came back. I don't know. I mean, that's what she claimed. But again, like, she was convicted, and until they appeal, like, we're not gonna really, I guess, find out much more. So it's just all. It's just. It's, like, sad all the way. It's traumatizing and then, like, double traumatizing. Right.

[Eva]

It's like, either way, it's messed up inside. Yeah.

[Christine]

So sad. And, like, she's suffering doubly because of it. Right. Like, when that. You know, not to say she's not guilty, but just to say, like, it didn't help heal her trauma. Right. I mean, this is. It's just adding to it.

[Eva]

I think I live, too, in the gray space of context. Like, because sometimes when you tell stories, I'm like, I don't know if there. Sometimes there's just not a side. Like, you don't have to pick a side every time, I guess. But sometimes I'm like, who do I side more with? And I can see both sides, I think. Think maybe a little too well, I guess. Sometimes. I don't know. I. Because when I hear a story like this, my first instinct is like, oh, wow, that poor girl. But then it's also like. But yeah, she spent, like, two weeks, like, preemptively doing something again. I never know, like, how to feel after these.

[Christine]

No, I know. And it's sad because it's like, it didn't. It's not like, yeah, go, girl. Like, get revenge. Right. It's like, no, you're just getting, you're just, you're reacting out of trauma. If, if this is what happened and she did kill him, like, you're probably acting out of a very traumatized place and like it's just going to make everything worse. Like, it's not like this helped heal her. Right, Right.

[Eva]

It's just spiraled into something making it worse.

[Christine]

And now she's in prison and it's just all very sad.

[Eva]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah. So anyway, thanks for listening too. And that's why we drink when that's why we bum you out every week.

[Eva]

A tw w BYO bum you out.

[Christine]

Oh, I was like BYOB oh, you know what?

[Eva]

Now that, let's rename the show.

[Christine]

It's not too late, is it?

[Eva]

Thank you, everyone. Christine, do you want to shout out anything?

[Christine]

I don't think I have anything particularly to shout out. This comes out like if we're ahead for the first time in a while, which is kind of, of exciting.

[Eva]

What day, what day does this come out?

[Christine]

I don't have any clue. Not this Sunday. I know that.

[Eva]

Well, let me see, you've got your August shows. You've got Indianapolis, Detroit and Kansas City coming up and Ohio.

[Christine]

Oh, and live Laugh Larceny will be at Kansas City, which will be fun if anyone is a fan of theirs. Yeah.

[Eva]

So go see Christine.

[Christine]

Yeah. Come see Beachy Sandy. We're gonna have fun. But otherwise, if you want more of our nonsense, you can go to our Patreon. Patreon.com you can find full length video episodes on YouTube. And we're also on all the socials, so come find us and we'll see you next Sunday.

[Eva]

And that's why we bum you out.

[Christine]

Byob.

[Eva]

You say you'll never join the Navy, never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit, or break the sound barrier. Joining the Navy sounds crazy. Saying never actually is. Learn [e-mail], america's Navy forged by the sea. You say you'll never join the Navy, that you never track storms brewing in.

[Christine]

The Atlantic.

[Eva]

And skydiving could never be part of your commute. You'd never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit or fly so fast you break the sound barrier. Joining the Navy sounds crazy. Saying never actually is. Start your [e-mail], america's Navy forged by the sea. Support for this podcast and the following message comes from America. America's Navy. The Navy offers new graduates, hands on training and experience in careers like computer science, aviation and medicine, plus education and sign on bonuses. Parents, help your grads start their career today at navy. Com.