E448 Swimfluencer Celebrations and Microphone Zits

Summary

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Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink — E448: Swimfluencer Celebrations and Microphone Zits

Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Date: September 7, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Christine and Em kick off with their signature banter before diving into a chilling paranormal time slip case in France and an outrageous true crime story involving a diabolical murder case and wrongful conviction. Along the way, they riff on topics from tour life (and microphone acne!), growing kids, the agony and hilarity of adulthood, and the twists of lesbian-coded historic drama. It’s a wild journey through ghostly encounters and jaw-dropping crime, generously seasoned with their signature humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Banter, Beverages, and Life Updates

• Colorful Gatorade Fantasies: The duo riffs on what color Gatorade they'd want dumped on them as "sports celebrities," factoring in allergies and color theory for TV optics. Em prefers blue for aesthetics, Christine chooses red but notes her minor allergy.
  • "I'd be on Sports Illustrated for kids with my big faux pas." — Christine [03:02]
• Swimfluencer Shoutout: Tongue-in-cheek gushing over an up-and-coming “swimfluencer” RJ, who just hit 50K followers.
  • "There's only one naked man I want on my screen, you know." — Em [05:02]
• Tour Update & Microphone Zits: Christine discusses life on tour, sibling bonding, and gritty realities of live shows (microphone-induced acne).
  • "Afterward I get like, I keep hitting my face on it and I get like zits on my chin and I'm like, that's embarrassing ... People are just like constantly talking into." — Christine [05:36]
• Why They Drink This Week:
  • Christine: Her daughter Leona is starting pre-school.
    • “It just goes fast, man ... but it's just a little bittersweet, you know, it's wild.” — Christine [10:56]
  • Em: Suffering the summer heat, cherishing a rare cool day, and wrestling with cortisol-fueled morning nausea.

Segment 1: The Versailles Time Slip — The Moberly–Jourdain Incident

Main Storyteller: Em
[Starts ~17:15]

Summary

A detailed retelling of the infamous 1901 episode in which two British academics, Charlotte Moberly and Eleanor Jourdain, seemingly slip back in time while visiting the gardens of Versailles, claiming eerie encounters with ghostly historical figures—including Marie Antoinette herself.

Key Points & Timestamps

• Setting the Scene: 1901, two distinguished academics, Charlotte and Eleanor, decide to tour Versailles and especially the gardens—including Petit Trianon, once Marie Antoinette's retreat. [22:22]
• The Time Slip Event: Upon straying from their path, the atmosphere shifts—silence falls, sun gives a strange, shadowless glow, and they report melancholy feelings.
  • "They were quoted saying birds stopped singing and leaves stopped rustling. It just became, okay. Very silent." — Em [30:45]
• Uncanny Encounters:
  • Woman doing laundry in slow motion [31:40]
  • Mechanical, silent gardeners in out-of-fashion tricorn hats [32:23]
  • Mannequin-like figures, a sinister man by a kiosk, and a mysterious, melancholic lady sketching in period dress—later deduced to be Marie Antoinette [35:00-40:45]
  • "The expression was evil and yet unseeing." — Em, quoting Eleanor's account [36:37]
• Aftereffects: They reunite with their tour, landmarks have vanished, atmospheric heaviness lingers, both feel sick and disoriented. They keep quiet about the events, only revealing to each other via tentative correspondence a week later. [41:29-44:17]
• Historical Cross-Checking: Later research uncovers historical corroboration:
  • Bridges, cottages, kiosks described by the women found in pre-revolutionary (1780s) maps & drawings, but missing in 1901 [49:27-50:22]
  • Descriptions of clothing and key figures match historical portraits, even citing Marie Antoinette’s diary and seamstress logs—down to the detail of the exact dress. [54:30-55:12]
  • Date significance: Their visit was the anniversary of Antoinette’s fall from grace, when she learned of the impending uprising—August 10. [56:54]
• Ongoing Phenomenon: The area remains notorious for reports of apparitions, time lapses, and sightings of Marie Antoinette each August. [80:01]
• Theories & Skepticism:
  • Mass confirmation bias, reenactment confusion (ruled out), shared hallucination, and even accusations that the women’s close relationship (“homosexual folie à deux”) caused delusional thinking [73:19]
  • Later life: Both women already had separate paranormal claims and mixed personal reputations, adding “mud” to the waters.
• Legacy:
  • They published their account as "An Adventure" under pseudonyms. The story became the subject of films, radio, podcasts, and urban legend. [64:07+]
  • "And that's where this goes because thank God they know how to research... They found maps from 1774, 1783, and 1789 that showed the following. A now removed bridge that they had walked across." — Em [48:56]

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Segment 2: The Thing About Pam — The Wild Case of Betsy Faria

Main Storyteller: Christine
[Starts ~87:16]

Summary

Christine unpacks the jaw-dropping saga of Pam Hupp, featuring love-bombing, insurance fraud, a botched frame-job, and how small-town police, an infatuated best friend, and lazy forensics conspired to wrongly convict Russ Faria for the brutal murder of his wife Betsy—while the real mastermind (Pam) left a trail of bodies and jaw-dropping schemes.

Key Events & Timestamps

• Introducing the Faria Family & Pam Hupp: Betsy and Russ: loving blended family. Betsy’s breast cancer battle. Enter Pam: a seemingly doting (overbearing, love-bombing) coworker and “friend.” [93:51]
  • "People in Betsy's life described Pam as an extremely kind person. They said Betsy is so lucky to have such a doting friend who's always checking up." — Christine [95:17]
• The Murder: Betsy found stabbed over 50 times, knife in her neck. Russ discovers the body, panics, calls 911, but is soon accused—despite an airtight alibi (D&D night, receipts, witnesses, video). [98:27+]
  • "When the police asked us if he thought Betsy was capable of harming herself... she had talked about suicidal ideation in the past. ...Then they find blood on the light switch in Russ and Betsy's bedroom. ... They become certain that Betsy had not died by suicide." — Christine [100:02+]
• Pam's Manipulation and Lies: Pam gives police lurid, unverified stories of Russ’s abuse and a (forged) draft email, paints Betsy as an abused wife, and claims Russ is motivated by insurance. [105:31-108:00]
• The Conviction: Despite the lack of physical evidence and Pam becoming sole beneficiary (4 days before murder), Russ is convicted and sentenced to life—police even claim missing evidence ("camera malfunction") and frame Russ with staged luminol results.
  • "And the judge sentenced him to life in prison without parole." — Christine [124:17]
• The Twist — Pam's True Colors:
  • Immediately cancels the supposed trust for Betsy’s daughters, keeps the insurance ($100K) for herself, and gets a facelift.
    • "Mariah and Leah therefore received not a single dollar of their mother's life insurance money to this day." — Christine [132:04]
  • Russ's defense appeals, evidence about Pam is finally allowed; Russ is acquitted in a bench trial. [137:52]
• Pam’s Attempt to Frame Again — The Gumpenberger Murder:
  • Pam lures disabled man Lewis Gumpenberger to her home (claiming it’s for a Dateline “reenactment”), kills him, fakes a home invasion, plants a “Russ” ransom note. [146:00+]
    • "She concocted a fake murder for hire plot against herself, and then she looked for an unwitting participant to frame." — Christine [155:45]
  • Heroic would-be victim Carol avoids being Pam’s first target by feigning concern over an unlocked door, catching Pam on camera and reporting her. [156:19]
• Pam’s Downfall:
  • Arrested for Gumpenberger’s murder, pleads "Alford" (acknowledges evidence but denies guilt), gets life in prison.
  • Evidence emerges of police misconduct; Russ wins a $2mil settlement.
  • Pam is finally charged with Betsy’s murder; trial set for 2026.
  • "In 2019, Pamela Hup was sentenced to life in prison without parole for the murder of Lewis Gumpenberger." — Christine [160:07]
• Lasting Impact:
  • The fractured aftermath among Betsy's daughters and Russ; how true crime pop culture (podcast, miniseries, etc.) fails to mend trauma; the irony of Pam pretending to work for Dateline while Dateline investigates her.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If this weren't such a sick, sad story, it would be laughable at how obvious this is." — Em [108:00]
• "Kill people if you don't want to be arrested for killing people, should be the only rule." — Christine, on Pam’s logic [159:18]
• “Like, for the rest of your life, you would question reality and everything ... You'd have the best icebreaker story but you'd be like... I don't even know if I should say it.” — Christine [81:01]
• "And the lens flares, and the time slips, and the gay rumors—the whole nine yards!" — Paraphrased theme, episode-wide

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Gatorade Sports Banter & Swimfluencer Section: 02:17 – 05:54
• Microphone Stories, Tour Life & Leona Preschool: 05:18 – 12:15
• The Versailles Time Slip (Moberly–Jourdain Incident): 17:15 – 80:42
• Christine's Story: The Betsy Faria / Pam Hupp Case: 87:16 – 164:30

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Overall Tone

• Lighthearted, self-deprecating, and irreverent, even as the conversation turns dark and disturbingly true
• Plenty of mutual ribbing, asides, and incredulous "what the...?" outbursts
  • "Do you really call it Ross for Less?" — Em [88:40]
• Willing to tackle difficult emotions—family trauma, wrongful conviction, queer undertones—with respectful candor amid their signature comedic back-and-forth

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers everything “And That’s Why We Drink” fans expect: outlandish true crime, weed-soaked ghost stories, explorations of parenthood, nostalgia, and plenty of off-the-cuff laughs. Both stories—Versailles’ ghostly time slip and Pam Hupp’s crime odyssey—leave the listener reeling, full of chills, and yes, more than a little grateful for wine (and milkshakes).

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Need more? Check out @ATWWDpodcast for links, Yappy Hour, and more.
Takeaway: If your “friend” rushes your inheritance paperwork, or if you see Marie Antoinette in the August heat—run, don't walk, and that's why we drink.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

And if you go to ziprecruiter.com drink right now, you can try it for free again. That's ziprecruiter.com drink ziprecruiter. The smartest way to hire.

[A]

Buying a car in Carvana was so easy.

[B]

I was able to finance it through them. I just.

[A]

Whoa, wait, you mean finance? Yeah, finance Got pre qualified for a Carvana auto loan, entered my terms and shot from thousands of great car options.

[B]

All within my budget. That's cool. But financing through Carvana was so easy. Financed, done. And I get to pick up my car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow.

[A]

Financed, right?

[B]

That's what they said. You can spend time trying to pronounce financing or you can actually finance and buy your car today. On financing subject to credit approval, additional terms and conditions may apply.

[A]

Oh, brother. It's Christine again.

[B]

Em goes, I'm ready when you are. And then I. And then Em starts talking. So I thought, oh, okay. I thought that I was supposed to kind of go off, but I. I thought maybe, maybe it sounds maybe, I don't know, maybe you were talking to yourself. I'm ready when you are.

[A]

I think probably I forgot maybe had.

[B]

Nothing to do with me.

[A]

Yeah, it had nothing to do with you.

[B]

It's your own pep talk to yourself.

[A]

It was kind of like my own locker room where I was like getting really.

[B]

You were doing that and you were like smashing Gatorade bottles on your forehead. It was like really Intense.

[A]

If you were a celebrity where they like drop a whole thing of Gatorade on you because you won the big game, what color Gatorade are you hoping for?

[B]

I like that you call them a celebrity. Like not like an athlete.

[A]

Sure. Sports celebrity. If you were a basketball celebrity.

[B]

Okay, I'm sorry, what color? You know, something like you would, something like really ill thought out, like not well thought out. I would do red because it's my favorite. And then I would be covered in red dye. And I'm also allergic to red.40 so, so like slightly not allergic. But I like get irritated skin. So I probably would be just like in hives as a celebrity. I'd make it on the COVID of some, of some tabloid.

[A]

Surely some celebrity magazine like Sports Illustrated.

[B]

Some celebrity sports magazine. Yeah, I'd probably be on Sports Illustrated for kids with my like, big faux pas. What about you? Yours would probably be gross, like orange or lemon or lime or some shit.

[A]

Hurtful. I, I, I mean, those are some of my favorite flavors. If I were doing it for the optics on television, I think it' most grabby to do like the one of the blues.

[B]

I was thinking that too, actually. And I like that grape. What about a frost? Like, would that look cooler? Would that just look like dirty mop water? You know what I mean? Like, I feel like if you put a grayish blue, the purple one would.

[A]

Look cool, but it also might be looking like fabuloso, you know?

[B]

That's a good point. That's a good point.

[A]

I think I would for, for the vibes. Well, I don't know. It depends on what the sport is. Because I would want to color theory wise. If I'm doing it against like green grass, I guess you want red so it pop versus like somewhere else. I want maybe blue against like a yellow orange basketball court, you know what I mean?

[B]

So where is this red carpet, I mean, sporting event taking place? Because that would also like, make a difference.

[A]

That sound has never come out of my mouth. It's like a dragon. Let me think. I, you know, I'd like, I don't know. I have no idea.

[B]

Like, a basketball court is like, orangey. A field is green, a pool is blue.

[A]

So then you want like yellow Gatorade?

[B]

Yeah. Well, no, no, you want red because then it goes in the water like shark, you know, or like someone's on their period.

[A]

Okay, that's my answer. Then that's what I'd like. All of a sudden I'd like to.

[B]

Be a swimming celebrity or a swim celebrity. Like rj, he actually guru Shout out.

[A]

He actually actually recently just hit 50k on social media.

[B]

I was like scrolling through Tick Tock and he's always coming up on my FYP and I'm like, anytime I see a pool, I'm like, there's my poolside guy. My. My RJ right there.

[A]

He's trying to be a swim fluencer. That's the thing.

[B]

And funny because then they try to show me other swim stuff and I'm like, no, no, no, you've misunderstood. I don't. I'm not in that life. I just follow RJ and support from the swimming.

[A]

There's only one naked man I want on my screen, you know.

[B]

Right. Well, I wouldn't go that far. But I will say as far as like swimming content about how to swim. It's like, not really something I'm looking for on as far as like tuning out. Oh, do you like my new microphone thing?

[A]

Yeah. Are we. So you look like, by the way, a celebrity. You like, you're singing.

[B]

I don't know why I did this. I just felt like holding a microp instead of the one that keeps swinging around and creaking and hitting me in the knee.

[A]

Well, I'm sure I know why. Because you've been on tour, it. Does it feel like you're on the stage?

[B]

Oh, sorry. Yeah. And you know what? I realized this is so embarrassing. They have like this like disinfectant for mics and I was like, oh, yeah, that's good that I had that. They have that. Because when I, I feel like afterward I get like, I keep hitting my face on it and I get like zits on my chin and I'm like, that's embarrassing. Like, how close am I putting this microphone in my face? People are just like constantly talking into. So, yeah, I feel like we've all been there. If you've done a show on the stage many times, like, anyway, I don't know if anyone else has been there. Maybe if you're in like a choir or something, but. Or do like shows, stand up, whatever. But man, like at a certain point.

[A]

And also think about like all the other people, like spit on it. Like, what if that rubs against your face? They want to. There have been a few times where like, I got so close to the microphone, like my teeth bumped into it and I was like, did everyone just hear it go clank? Yeah.

[B]

Yes, probably at least, because I always think the same thing. So we must just be okay. Glad it's not just me because that Would have been really embarrassing if you were, like, horrified.

[A]

It's kind of like when Leona was, like, leaning into the mic.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, does that.

[A]

What.

[B]

Is that what I do? Like, do I just sound like that the whole time, maybe, and then my teeth just hitting it, like. It sounds like I'm the worst live performer ever.

[A]

But how is tour going?

[B]

It's good. We've been. We've been. We have, like, a month now before the next show. So when this comes out, I think we'll be, like, heading to Texas and Omaha and all sorts of places, so. And Portland and Seattle. So.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Check us out.

[A]

You just had shows last night, yesterday.

[B]

I did in Detroit and Indianapolis. How was it? And it was very fun. It was very fun. I just. I. They were easy to make fun of. Okay. They were easy to find one star reviews of. Let's put it that way. I mean, kind of every city is. But, yeah, no, it's been really fun. It's been pretty lowkey. There's been a lot of sibling bonding, which, you know, has its ups and downs. Yeah. You know, it's. It's. I'm tired, but what else is new?

[A]

I don't think I've known a moment. You weren't tired the day you're like, I feel refreshed. I'm gonna go, oh, my God. Call the police.

[B]

True. Something's gone terribly wrong. Yeah. It's good, though. But why? What are you up to? Why? Do you. Do you have a reason? You drank this week. Trying to think of. I don't even know what day it is or where I am.

[A]

Me either. But I don't have as good of a reason as you. I. Today, I think I drink for a good reason. I don't know. I'm. I'm being a little preemptive here, but it feels like a stormy, cloudy kind of day.

[B]

Fun.

[A]

Now. I also maybe have just slept through this part of the day too much recently, and this is just what it always looks like. And then it gets crazy hot. But right now, it. It feels like there's promise of it being kind of cooler today.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In which case it won't be as much.

[B]

Vibes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I know is just, like, not gonna happen for quite a while. But it. I. Today I feel like there's. There's hope that one day it won't be so miserable.

[B]

This comes out in September, and so we're recording well in advance, so maybe by the time it comes out, you'll have gotten a little cloud cover. You know, maybe.

[A]

That's a great point. So maybe this is actually just like a taste of the real time that the people are hearing this.

[B]

Right. Right. It'll just be more relevant for everybody, you know?

[A]

Yeah. I don't think I have anything else.

[B]

Did you get a bevy?

[A]

I have a beverage. You know, my doordash came. I had it sent out as you do.

[B]

You sent out for your drink, your bevy?

[A]

I did, and I got two because I knew I'd chug once. And I've got another one for sipping.

[B]

Right. Which. What did you order?

[A]

I just got me a little iced tea. So.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Something gentle for the tummy.

[B]

Just a gentle little tea.

[A]

Well, I woke up today feeling kind of like crap. And I was. I. I've heard that it's a cortisol thing. I don't know how true that is, but sometimes I wake up and I think I wake up earlier than my body or brain are prepared for, and then I feel like I want to throw up. You know what I mean?

[B]

Oh. Like, physically sick.

[A]

Like, I feel nauseous and, like, disgusting.

[B]

Weird.

[A]

And I've heard that's a cortisol thing, though. Like, my body just hasn't caught up yet. But anyway, I felt like poop.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

I hate that it's figured out now. I think I just need to eat something.

[B]

I mean, that usually helps. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Anyway, why do you drink?

[B]

Well, Leona starts preschool on Monday. Way to cry. So scary. And she's. She's like. She's like, growing up, she's a little kid, and she's like, just. Just a little kid. She's like a three year old. I don't know. It's just crazy. I'm like, this is. I know. And when this comes out, it'll be less than a month before she's four.

[A]

Shut up. I literally, sometimes in my mind, I still think she just learned how to chew. Like, I.

[B]

Right. Like, she barely knows how to fucking roll over. And now it's like, oh, good. She slammed the door in my face and said, like, I can't even think of an example because it's just so beyond my comprehension. Anyway, it's all very fun and wonderful, but slipping through my fingers.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It just goes fast, man. It's like. I know they say that. I know it's a cliche, but it's a true cliche, and it's exciting, it's fun, and it's great that, like, she'll be in School all day. So it's like, you made it.

[A]

You finally got.

[B]

I know. It really feels like I got a lot more time on my hands. All of a sudden you're about to.

[A]

Actually say you feel refreshed. And I'm gonna go, wait a minute here.

[B]

Yeah, right. I filled every waking minute with, like, other shit to do that I should just be using to sleep and. But yeah, no, no, no, it'll be. It'll be good, but it's just a little bittersweet, you know, it's wild.

[A]

I really. It's not even my kid, and I don't even see her all that often. But it really does feel like she's only been here for like a year and now you're saying there's four of them.

[B]

No, I know. It's so trippy because I'm like, I just moved here and then I'm like, well, that was like five years ago, you know, Whoa. It's just crazy. But I'll probably post a little back to school photo. But, like, obviously X out all the identifying details. But yeah, no, it's exciting and she's really happy and she, like, loves going to school and seeing friends and stuff.

[A]

So obviously one of the important questions to ask where in which, depending on how you answer, I'll judge you as a mother. Your favorite question to be asked.

[B]

Yeah, most of them.

[A]

Did you take her back to school shopping?

[B]

Not yet. We're in a little tricky situation because she was signed up for one school and we started there in the summer. And then we managed to get her into a school that was much closer to our house and we preferred it. And so we're kind of switching. But she was also in a different school in the spring and so. Or like a toddler program. And so now this is her third school this year, and she's getting a little freaked out. So we're trying to, like, gotcha. Be very low key. But we did, like, a. I do have, like, a little plan for the day before because they say you can bring in, like, a stuffy for, like, rest time and stuff. So we're gonna, like, have her, you know, pick out a special school stuffy and, you know, all that stuff. And got her, like, a dino rancher's, like, nap mat, little sleeping bag that she's obsessed with.

[A]

And did she get to. If she didn't go school shopping and, like, pick out, like, folders and stuff? I don't think she needs folders.

[B]

Yeah, they don't have that. Yeah, it's like the Literal shopping list is stuffed animal, nap mat, and like raincoat. So I was like, well, I'm not taking her to pick all that out because I'm gonna wait till they're on sale and buy the ones I. I like, you know.

[A]

Does she have a particular. I guess what I'm getting to is did she get to pick out like a backpack or lunchbox there? I asked what the lunchbox is.

[B]

The lunchbox is Spidey.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

Of course. And then the backpack is Lion King, which she doesn't really watch Lion King, but I, you know, her name's Leona and she likes lion. It's her favorite animal. So you're indoctrinating her. Well. And my sister worked at Adidas outlet, So I got 60 off, so I was like, here we go. So that. And then she, she has her Spidey lunchbox. But yeah, I mean she's so low key, you know, she like, it's fine. She'll get her a little nap mat and her. And that's kind of all they have at age 3 or 4 life highlighters and shit yet, I guess. Oh, she does have a lilo and stitch pencil case that she commenced place to buy her.

[A]

She is so cool.

[B]

So she does carry that around. But yeah, no, it's fun. It's just. And it's fun because like we're doing like Shrinky Dinks together now and like stuff that I like have a lot of fun doing too. So it's fun because it's like, oh, she's like more of a kid. Like we can interact and play, but it's also like, oh, I know, but.

[A]

It'S got to be, it's got to be fun to be able to like now actually have like two sided fun versus like I'm watching her and we're calling it fun, you know what I mean?

[B]

And she makes me laugh. Like she's funny. So it's like, oh, this is actually can be really fun.

[A]

Yeah, we're just sometimes yapping. We're just hanging out yapping.

[B]

And we're like, let's talk about that, you know, and then she'll go, and she'll go, Christine. And I'm like, yeah. And then I go, wait, what did you just call me? And she's like, where did Blaze go? And I'm like, okay, so you know, three going on 16, I guess, but perfect. Yeah, very cute. Yeah.

[A]

Well, what do you drink this week? Not why, but what?

[B]

Well, what else is new? I got my never ending angry orchard box in my Mini fridge. It does kind of feel like Mary Poppins. Like every time I open, I'm like, there's still some left. But I'm not complaining. So. Cheers. Got some cider and you got some tea and we're gonna chugalug along.

[A]

We're just gonna yap. That's what we do best.

[B]

We're gonna yap our booties off, I guess. All right. We're here to tell you about CURE today. It's a plant based hydrating electrolyte drink mix with no added sugar. So it's a natural, delicious, and convenient way to keep you and your whole family hydrated. Unless you live in my family, in which case Blaze hides them from me, so I don't know where they are. And he claims he's not hiding them. But then why are they all the way in that weird corner cabinet?

[A]

Yeah, if you happen to be a thirsty little rat. I gotta tell you, we have the cure because cure is here. There is?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Healthy hydration is the cleanest way to hydrate. And cure is made with clean ingredients. Like Christine said, zero added sugar. Giving you pure hydration without any of the junk. And it's only 25 calories per serving. It's just clean, natural hydration that keeps you feeling energized without the crash. You know, I love things without the crash.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Check out that's kirahydration.com drink and use code drink for 20 off your first order. Well, I've got something extra neat for you today. I am pretty jazzed about these notes. It. It's not your. Your everyday haunting.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I got me a feeling you're gonna like it just based on your past Interests. So I'm just gonna say the title, then you tell me where we stand. Okay?

[B]

You just go for it.

[A]

Did you just get ready for that? Okay, there's two names to it. The first one you're not going to care so much about. It's called by name the Moberly Jourdain Incident, but it is also known as the Versailles Time Slip.

[B]

Okay, first of all, you know I love an incident. I love and hate an incident, but I'm intrigued by an incident.

[A]

I love it when I'm not involved.

[B]

In the nighttime, you know?

[A]

Yeah, I get it.

[B]

I just. I just always feel that an incident is something worth pursuing. Maybe from afar, but. So I am intrigued deeply. And. And to hear it's a time slip now. Count me in. Yes, you're right.

[A]

Spoken like a true detective. From the beginning of that sentence to the end.

[B]

That's right. That was exactly. Very intelligently put.

[A]

It was. You really did. You were like. I feel like. I feel like an incident is worth pursuing. Okay. Olivia Duncan.

[B]

I forget what I actually even said, so thank you for reminding me, but I'm glad it sounded relatively coherent.

[A]

Perfect. Okay, so the year is 1901.

[B]

Or is it?

[A]

Or is it? It's actually August 1901. And our two main characters, which I love, their initials are C and E. Love that.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Are Charlotte. Her full name is Charlotte Ann Moberly. I'm just gonna call her Charlotte. Big C. And then Eleanor Jordan.

[B]

Oh, and Charlotte and Eleanor. Okay, I know.

[A]

Like, relax.

[B]

Such Victorian names. I love it.

[A]

I know, like, they're way too fancy for me. So, Charlotte, I'm just gonna give you some backstory on, like, how they were viewed in town.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Just to give you an idea of how. Of the reputation, I suppose.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, Charlotte, her father was a college headmaster. He was also the Bishop of Salisbury.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And that sounds important. It does. And also she was the first principal of St. Hughes College, which I guess was the women's part of Oxford University at the time.

[B]

Oh, okay. Wow. So first president.

[A]

The first president of the Women's College of Oxford. All right. Eleanor ends up being Charlotte's vice president, or vice principal. Sorry. And also her eventual successor. So when Charlotte dies far off into the future, Eleanor took over as principal.

[B]

Okay, okay, okay. So predecessor. Sort of.

[A]

Yes. So Eleanor, successor.

[B]

Afterward. Successor. You're right. Yes. Thank you.

[A]

Eleanor also tutors kids in Paris. She authored many textbooks that. And what's happening?

[B]

I just remembered what this story is. Oh, this is. I. I've only heard about it one time, and it, of course, on Astonishing Legends, but it was, like, so mind blowing. And I, I, I'm so excited right now. I just realized what you said earlier, and it's coming together in my head. The French thing got me teaching French.

[A]

Anyone in, like, the Versailles time slip didn't do it for you, but. Okay, I know.

[B]

That's why I'm like, what is wrong with me? But there's a. See, there's a Versailles in Kentucky that they pronounce Versailles.

[A]

Course in Kentucky, they call it Versailles.

[B]

Exactly. So I very quickly, my brain went to that and then I kind of forgot about Paris for a minute.

[A]

Everyone watching this on YouTube thought you were leaning in for a kiss, because that was. Your eyes got so white in mirror.

[B]

Is that what I look like when I lean in for a kiss?

[A]

Oh, only in my wildest dreams. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, just bug eyes just approaching me. No, sorry. You said for some reason it was about her tutoring French because they went on a big thing about, like, how much French would she know and would she know the history versus the language that's. They get in the weeds on that show. So I, I remember that specifically, but. Oh, my God, I'm so excited. Okay.

[A]

I actually, on my own, also thought I was like, how much French does she know? Because they end up speaking to people and I assume they would speak in French.

[B]

Right. That's what I was wondering. It's intriguing, right? It's like, huh.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah, Eleanor. So she's gonna be. She's currently the vice principal. She's eventually going to be the principal after Charlotte. She tutors kids in Paris. She authored a lot of textbooks that they ended up using in the school. She also helped found and was in charge of a boarding school day school, and her father was a vicar of Ashburn in Derbyshire, I think.

[B]

Oh, my Christ. All these names, the titles.

[A]

I know the. Really all you need to remember is that they were both relatively esteemed academics. They were.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

They weren't some Joe Schmos on the street, especially in 1901.

[B]

Right. For women, too. Right. Like, that's, you know, to find educated and like, academic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People in academics. Yeah.

[A]

So that's really. You don't have to remember any of the information. Just know that they were like, well to do, or at least seen that way. So before actually working together as principal, vice principal, the two decided, like, let's get to know each other first. Let's take a trip to France. I can't imagine that we were like.

[B]

Let'S Start a podcast. They were like, let's go to Versailles. I was like, let's go to Versailles.

[A]

I think the first time when you and I hung out, we were like, let's sit on a tractor and see how this goes.

[B]

That's right. We went to a hay ride, and.

[A]

If it doesn't work out, we'll never talk to each other again. But to Versailles, as you said.

[B]

No wonder we didn't get a time slip at the hate at the tractor ride.

[A]

Maybe we did. Maybe this is all one big time slip, and then we'll blank and I'm 24 again. That'd be lovely.

[B]

Would it be Go all the way back? I don't think so. Don't take me back, please.

[A]

Well, okay. I only saw this on one source, but I just still want to put it out there for the vibes that apparently, on this day in France, it was a very particularly stormy day. Lots of electrical energy in the air as you.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So the women go and check out the palace of Versailles and love this. For them, they weren't all that impressed. That would have also been me. I'd be like, girl, let's go somewhere else.

[B]

Oh, Kim Kardashian and Kanye, like, base their house off this big whoop, you know?

[A]

You know, if that's how you pitch it to me, I'm. I'm, like, such a stupid American. If you told me that, I'd be 10% more inclined.

[B]

I think they actually did, or it was either that or they. Maybe they designed or they tried to hold their wedding there. There was something about the Kardashians having to do with Versailles, I'm pretty sure. But I could be wrong on that.

[A]

I'm so impressed that you're teaching me about this.

[B]

I mean, I could also be just completely making it up and, like, teaching you less. Like, making you dumber, you know, which is entirely possible.

[A]

Couldn't be possible. I'm already as dumb as they come. But I love the role reversal.

[B]

Oh, they did get married at Versailles. Okay.

[A]

Lovely.

[B]

Isn't that nuts?

[A]

I.

[B]

First of all, to not be impressed is crazy, and I don't believe you, because this place is crazy.

[A]

I wonder. This is so stupid. I wonder if it's because it was 1901 and, like, the history was all a little closer. Like, it didn't feel so, like.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like this ancient landmark. I don't know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Still, like, 100 years later since everything. I don't know.

[B]

And also, it was, like, so glamorous and, like, upscale. You wouldn't See something like that even on tv. Like, you didn't have TV to like, see pictures and stuff. So I'm like, it's really okay. I mean, whatever.

[A]

Whatever it is, it is shocking. Although I. Not. I, you know, at the same time, I know that I. If I'm not invested in the history of a certain landmark, to me, it's just a building. And I.

[B]

So maybe that was okay, but, like, as French people. As French.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

They went there to, like, learn about France. And I mean. Okay, here's what I'll say. Maybe it was like one of those situations that I read about on Yelp, like a one star review where it was like, oh, we got like a rude comment from somebody who worked there. And then like, it was really muddy and we got our, like, little stockings all in mud puddle. And you know, maybe they just had a bad experience and they were like, oh, okay, fair point. Fair enough. So, yeah, they were disappointed. I guess I could give them that.

[A]

Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. That is a good point.

[B]

No, you're right. Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. It's not like, honestly, also, given the time period in 1901, it's not like they had, like, arcades and escape rooms to go to on top of it.

[B]

Like, saying, like, it's not even, like, you have fake stuff like this, like, Disney World to go to to, like, pretend you're ever so, you know, or.

[A]

All you had was big, boring history. Come on.

[B]

Yeah. All you had is books. Boo.

[A]

I'm sorry, I. Education's important.

[B]

Anyway, I just don't believe they were not impressed. I. I like to think maybe they were just, like, disappointed about something like a muddy. I'm gonna go with the muddy stockings.

[A]

Sure. The. I think the reason that a lot of sources. It was not just one source. A lot of sources. A story has become that they were uninterested. And I think it's only proven by the fact that at some point they wandered off from their tour group and, like, didn't seem interested.

[B]

Maybe the tour was bad. Dusty and crusty.

[A]

Maybe the tour guide was just kind of, like, not good at his job. He wasn't engaged.

[B]

1901. Yeah. Maybe he was, like, rude to the women, you know, who knows?

[A]

Maybe. And also, I mean, that's like, quite a stretch.

[B]

Maybe he was just an. I mean, it could be.

[A]

Well, also, they seemed more interested in the garden specifically. So maybe they were like, let's just ditch this tour because I don't care about the inside I want to go see the garden.

[B]

Gardens. All the like gilded nonsense. Yeah, like go to the gardens. That's fair.

[A]

Yeah, something like that. So the women go check out the palace. Allegedly are not impressed. Then they head to an area called the Petite Trianon, which I am absolutely butchering with my accent. Sorry.

[B]

That sounds good.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

To me. Not that I know. Whoa.

[A]

So in case you don't know what this place is. I did not. It was a private chateau on the property that was originally given to 19 year old Mary Antoinette by her husband Louis XVI. And he gave it to her to use as kind of like an escape from the world and as an escape room. Oh, you know, I lied. They did go to an escape room that day. So. Yeah, it was just given to Mary Antoinette by her husband as like her shed treat. A she shed. Yes. Except a beautiful private chateau.

[B]

All right. Same thing.

[A]

A she chateau.

[B]

That's so cute.

[A]

You know, she calls it a shishi.

[B]

Oh, it is.

[A]

You know, Au revoir. On my way to my shishi. Ciao, ciao, ciao, ciao. Back to my shishi. Oh, man. We would be so.

[B]

I'm into this.

[A]

Lobotomized.

[B]

In France, we would have been locked into a she shed, if you know what I mean. We would have been put away for life and all you would hear for.

[A]

The rest of time is us just going, shi, shi, shi, shi.

[B]

Yeah, like, like giggling to ourselves. Yeah, they would have made the right decision, I think. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So anyway, yes, the Petit Trianon is her shishi and.

[B]

Okay, got it.

[A]

The French have turned this off for sure.

[B]

Oh, imagine like a cute little cabin. It's like your shishi shi shed. Okay, I will. It's fine. Don't worry about it. We'll talk about another time.

[A]

I can't discuss it right now. We should.

[B]

That's what we should have called the plunger for.

[A]

We should call it our shishi. Okay. So on their. The shishi, they got lost. And keep in mind, the gardens here are like. I don't even. I wouldn't be able to grasp the scope of this, but they're like five miles long in all different directions with like hedges and all sorts of places. It's very easy to get lost.

[B]

Right. They're just like sprawling.

[A]

They're kind of sprawling. And they were intentionally looking for this area, the Chi Shi area.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But they got lost or the area that they were walking to was closed. And so they decided that they were going to try to just find a new way in. Basically like a oh, where's a back entrance? And this since it's obviously closed, but I won't settle for that. We're gonna go find a workaround. So portal, perhaps accidentally, maybe a portal so they try to find their way around. A lot of skeptics will say they simply just got lost and don't know what they're talking about, and that's the end of the story.

[B]

I mean, if that were me. If that were me, yes, that would be the answer. But I don't think that they. They were a lot smarter than me. And I think they so a lot more. And had their wits about them.

[A]

And to be fair, they had a travel guidebook that, like, was telling them exactly how to get around. So they're like, we literally had a map with us. We were following the map and we still.

[B]

And just. They're traveling as adult women. Like, it's not like they're like little kids who've never left home before. Like, they're grown working women with an academic background. Yeah. I just feel like it's a stretch to say they're just too dumb to, like, understand the golas, but it well.

[A]

So they are figuring their way over to the Petit Trina, and they end up passing right by the wide main street that would have taken them there. Almost as if they somehow didn't even see the path right in front of them. While walking on the property, the air seemed to get very intense very quickly, and the energy shifted.

[B]

Omg.

[A]

To a point where they were quoted saying birds stopped singing and leaves stopped rustling. It just became, okay. Very silent.

[B]

It's like aliens.

[A]

I know. So the world around them gets eerily silent. And they recalled the sun even setting in a weird way where it cast an odd glow on everything, but with no shadows.

[B]

Ew. What is that? It's so, like Truman Show. That's so creepy.

[A]

They both started feeling weirdly sad, depressed, even. And Eleanor says it was, quote, as if I were walking in my sleep and the heavy dreaminess was oppressive. So while walking, they actually spot a woman leaning out of her window shaking a cloth as if she's doing laundry.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

But weirdly, she seems to be moving in slow motion.

[B]

This is so creepy to me.

[A]

They also happen across what looked like an abandoned farmhouse or farm houses, depending on the source, with a lot of outdated farm equipment sitting out front of the buildings, including a very old looking plow. Even in 1901, they were like, this plow is very old. Why would it be here?

[B]

Wow. I'm not impressed.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not impressed. Keep it moving. Charlotte remembers thinking that it was in Eleanor's character to stop and ask people for directions. And since they saw this woman shaking out this cloth, she thought it was weird that Eleanor didn't stop and say, hey, can you show us the way to the petitrinal? So that's just something to remember for later.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That Eleanor didn't seem to right to start up a conversation. Well, while still wondering the grounds and looking for the area, they bump into two men who they assume are gardeners because next to them is a wheelbarrow and I think a shovel. So they assumed they were gardeners. However, they were dressed in funny looking long green and gray coats and they also wore tricorn hats which were no longer of the era. The two men pointed the women to continue straight on their path. But they. But the women remembered that they spoke in weird mechanical manners. Oh, like animatronics or something.

[B]

Yeah. This feels like they are at Disney World, like by accident, you know what I mean? Like fake.

[A]

Can you imagine if they just went over to Disneyland Paris? And that was it.

[B]

That was the time. Slipped into Disneyland Paris. Yeah.

[A]

Problem solved. So they continued on the path again after seeing this one woman moving in slow motion. Eleanor seemingly not noticing her. And then these mechanical men in old fashioned clothing. Eleanor then remembers them walking past a cottage and seeing a woman and a girl standing by the doorway, also in outdated clothes. And the woman seemed to be in the middle of passing a jug to the young girl. But Eleanor said that the two looked eerily still. So like she was handing her the jug, but no one was grabbing for it. She wasn't reaching any. It was almost like they were a painting. Like the mannequins.

[B]

Oh, so it's like, like in frozen, like in. Yeah, like mid movement.

[A]

Oh God, like mannequins. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yuck.

[A]

So this is when she also noticed that not only was the world around them strangely silent, but everything, not just the women and girl, seemed flat and lifeless. She said that even the trees look two dimensional. They also like the sun didn't cast any shade or shadows on anything. And Eleanor said everything looked unnatural and therefore unpleasant.

[B]

You know what? And that feels like that uncanny valley. Right. And then you feel dread because it's like this feels like normal life, except there are no sh. There are no normal natural things that are supposed to be here. That must feel so dis. Like disorienting.

[A]

Especially if the like three encounters they've had so far is that one person's in slow motion, 12 people are mechanical, and another one is acting like a mannequin. It's like none of them are acting like real people of the moment. Yeah.

[B]

All of it feels less and less like, comforting as you go. And then, like, realizing, wait a minute, there's no sound. There's no.

[A]

Like.

[B]

That's got to be terrifying.

[A]

Like, even the atmosphere is uncanny Valley. If there's no sound or, like, shadow. Yeah. Can you imagine? No shadow. Just everything's the same. Just lit the same, no matter where you look.

[B]

It's really unsettling. Yeah.

[A]

As they continued on, the two women began to feel an even heavier sadness. And soon they came across a wooden kiosk, which I didn't really understand what a kiosk was, but it's essentially like a standard, like a concession stand. That's what it looked like to me.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

In the kiosk sat a man with a cape and a wide brimmed hat.

[B]

So good. Just a man.

[A]

I wanted to see Lord Licorice from Candyland.

[B]

I was gonna say either the hat man. Yep, there you go. Or Lord Licorice. Yep.

[A]

It's always one of them.

[B]

It's gotta be one of them.

[A]

So they saw this man. He apparently had a very sinister air about him.

[B]

Great.

[A]

When he did look up at them from under his hat, he was glaring in a really dark way. His energy was super dark. Apparently, they didn't even feel like he was totally looking at them, but through them, almost as if he didn't even notice them. Eleanor was quoted saying, the man slowly turned his face, which was marked by smallpox, and his complexion was very dark. Dark. The expression was evil and yet unseeing. And though I did not feel that he was looking particularly at us, I felt a repugnance to going past him. So they were afraid to even move. Oh, they didn't even.

[B]

And they didn't even think he saw them. They were just like, he is not good vibes. Wow. That's creepy.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine looking the eyes of someone who's not looking in.

[B]

Your eyes, but, like, still feeling terrified of them in a way.

[A]

See you in a way that you can't go past them. You can't walk past something that can't even see you.

[B]

Ew. I just got like. Like skull chills. Scalp chills.

[A]

Yeah. Skills. No.

[B]

So they don't have those. No.

[A]

They didn't say anything to the man. The man didn't say anything to them. But while feeling really uncomfortable near this guy, soon another man ran up to the women to talk to them. The woman said he had a very different energy. He did dress weirdly like everybody else had so far, but they remembered how nice he seemed. And apparently this man told them, you're going the wrong way. Which this. The vibe of this other man told me that. But, yeah, you're going the wrong way. You need to turn right and get back to the house. Do you think he knew? I mean, that is an interesting point, because my.

[B]

No one else saw them, but this guy did, right?

[A]

Yeah, I had.

[B]

And he had a good energy. Like, he must have been like, I will guide you back. You've accidentally entered the wrong space.

[A]

Listen to me, you have to leave.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I have chills. Ah.

[A]

And I wonder if for him maybe, like, what if he thought he was seeing a glitch in the Matrix in some way because he was like, these two women look really weird compared to everybody else in this world. Like, they're not from here, you know? I wonder if. On the flip side, I wonder if they both had a time slip and saw each other.

[B]

But then wouldn't he just be like, what the. Is that that?

[A]

Yeah, I guess he would.

[B]

I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe he's like, ah, I don't know. Ah. A time slip.

[A]

Ah, indeed. I've been waiting for one of these.

[B]

Another one I've been waiting.

[A]

To be fair, if I ever experienced a time slip, the. My first thought would be, I've waited a long time for this.

[B]

You're right. Although we do have Reddit and I feel like we got primed via Reddit versus them back then. Didn't really have that kind of access, but, you know, who knows?

[A]

Fair point. So the guy says, you're not supposed to be here. You have to turn right and get home or get back to the main house. And so the woman start. They turn right, they start walking. They turn around a few moments later to thank him, and he has disappeared. Not only that, the man in the wide brim hat has disappeared and the entire wooden kiosk has disappeared.

[B]

Oh, shit. Okay.

[A]

They follow his directions on how to get back, or they think they're heading back, but then they realize they're walking over a bridge. They walk through an arbor, and they walk through a meadow and just walk and walk and walk in. And soon they realize that they are in this garden where they see a nearby building with a chapel and they have reached the petite triangle. So he ended up guiding them straight to where they wanted to go anyway.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

And once they arrived, Charlotte was kept talking about how. Kept talking about in her.

[B]

She was just bitching about this whole.

[A]

She's just yapping. And her. In her account, one of the things that she mentioned very heavily was that once they arrived to this garden and in the petit triangle, the first thing she noticed was that there was this woman in the garden sketching some of the trees.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Some sources say that this woman was sitting in the grass. Some say she was sitting on a terrace. It doesn't matter. She was in the garden and she was sketching the trees. Charlie actually described her by saying she had on a shady white hat perched on a good deal of fair hair that fluffed around her forehead. Her light summer dress was arranged on her shoulders. And her dress was old fashioned and rather unusual. Specifically the fact that she had on a green shawl.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So Charlotte recalls this woman sketching. And ever since they made eyes or recognize each other, she remembers this woman just staring at her the entire time and refusing to look away.

[B]

Spooky.

[A]

When the women continued to walk around the gardens, the same woman that was staring at Charlotte kept staring at her. Like, as they were walking, the whole garden kept staring at her.

[B]

So creepy.

[A]

And Charlotte even said that the longer she looked at the woman, the more she realized that the woman was, quote, pale, melancholic, and strangely translucent. Soon as they're walking past that building with the chapel that's in the garden, and a man comes running out of the chapel, he throws the door open. He runs out and he's like, you're way too close to this chapel. This is the queen's private entrance. You can't be here. And he directs them back to the main house. And from there, they end up meeting up with their original tour group.

[B]

Whoa. Okay.

[A]

On their way back to the main house, they recalled that even though they were retracing their steps from earlier, the bridge that they crossed was now missing, as well as many other landmarks that they had passed. The cottages they saw earlier were no longer there. And soon the eerie energy went away. Although they later recalled both feeling nauseous and disoriented for the rest of the day.

[B]

Oh, I wonder if that dread went away or not. Not. You know? Yeah, I guess if you're feeling nauseous and disoriented, probably not. It probably still feels pretty shitty.

[A]

So here's what I thought of all of this. The weirdest part, because this could not be us. Neither Charlotte nor Eleanor ever mentioned any of their experience to each other. They didn't say A damn word to each other. They just both, okay, so happen to have this happen.

[B]

And that's what I wonder. Because then I'm like, is it one of those things where you're like, I don't know you well enough, you know what I mean? Like, because they're getting to know each other and they just work together and they're like, hey, we don't.

[A]

That's a great point. I hadn't thought like that.

[B]

How would you even bring that up? Like, that's a great point. Like, you don't want to get sent away, right? As like a woman back then. You don't want to sound totally nuts. I feel like you'd have to really trust the other person.

[A]

I had not thought about that because in my mind I was like, why on earth would you not look at each other and be like. That was immediately.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like, did you see what I saw?

[A]

Interesting. Okay, good point. Well, it wasn't until.

[B]

I mean, again, couldn't be us, to be clear. Yeah, it couldn't be me.

[A]

No. I'd be like, look, we just met and you're gonna think I'm the wildest person in the world. However.

[B]

Yeah, I'll be like, let me go first. Okay. Don't worry, we're on the same page.

[A]

So a week later, they had parted ways and they were writing a letter to each other. I think Charlotte was writing to Eleanor.

[B]

He's like, so.

[A]

Yeah, I think she was like, things. Isn't it kind of. I think she was kind of flirting with the. With like, like dabbling with mentioning it.

[B]

She's like, what a nice time we had, huh?

[A]

Like, did you have any odd experiences? Hahaha. Just kidding. Lol. Okay, please don't institutionalize me.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

I think I'm assuming that multiple letters were exchanged back and forth, but I think this might have also just been in one letter. I don't totally. Maybe she was writing it as, you know, at the time when it took like 20 minutes to write a letter. Maybe by the end she was like, it. Is this place haunted to you?

[B]

Yeah. Like, honestly, I'm not gonna wait for three more rounds of letters to get to this. Yeah, let's just cut to the chase now.

[A]

I don't have a month to dilly dally. Just tell me and if. And then. And then don't take the job if you think I'm crazy. So she said, do you think the property was haunted? And Eleanor wrote back immediately and said, hell yeah. And by immediately, I mean probably 19 days, but.

[B]

But, yeah, I was gonna say post it. Yeah. Yeah. How many business days? I don't know, but eventually.

[A]

Imagine a time where you say something that risque in a letter and you have to wait, like, multiple weeks. Like, imagine the tossing and turning you would do every night, wondering if you went too far with your writing.

[B]

And then when it, like, gets really far, you're like, oh, by now, she's definitely gotten it, and I haven't heard back. It's like, oh, God. You got to be constantly, like. And waiting for the other shoe to.

[A]

Drop, and you don't have a copy of it. You can't read it back to your friends and be like, was this too much?

[B]

Good point.

[A]

You just have to be like, I think I said this, but I don't remember how I said it. What if it came across?

[B]

And they're like, whoa. And you're like, well, no, not like that. Oh, God, is it bad? That's how I would go.

[A]

I truly could not make it in a world where I had to rely on just writing somebody and then waiting. Waiting alone. Couldn't happen.

[B]

I would have had to, like, walk there when they. I would have, like, mailed it and then walked there, and then, like, it would have just been really stupid.

[A]

When our grandparents are like, it's those damn phones. They were not lying, because the way that I'm kidding, my brain is rotted from the inside out when it comes to instant gratification. There's no way I could wait. There's no way.

[B]

The impatience is already very, very limited in my. In my personality.

[A]

So, no, it couldn't happen. But anyway, she waited. She ended up getting a response. Both of them agreed the place was haunted. So then they briefly discussed some of their experiences that they had that day. But they didn't really go super in depth, which, now that you made that point, of course, they didn't totally mention everything that happens. They just kind of were testing the waters on what they could say to each other. So different sources say a month later or three months later, they decided, hey, let's write down our entire experiences in depth, separately from each other, and then we're going to compare notes.

[B]

Okay. Oh, let's see. They're. They're academic.

[A]

I feel like this bonded them and actually got her the job to be the vice principal.

[B]

I hope so. After this, nothing else.

[A]

Can you imagine having this back and forth for months and months just for Charlotte to go, actually, it's not working. I think.

[B]

You know what. What's the like phrase? Like oh, actually, we've. We've gone with someone else. Or. What is like, the phrasing that they always say, like, trying to be nice, but it just slaps you in the face.

[A]

It's like, we're going a different direction. I don't know.

[B]

Different direction. That's what it is. We're going in a different direction. Oh, fuck you.

[A]

And. Yeah, anyway, we could derail very quickly on that.

[B]

Anyway.

[A]

Yeah, so a few things that. Because, remember, they wrote it all out. They hadn't totally discussed with each other. A few things about each other's accounts freaked them out, that they were so overlapping. Name. And in some ways they were overlapping, but in different ways. Namely that they had different experiences of similar memories of who they encountered, so.

[B]

Oh, their perceptions were different.

[A]

Yeah. So one person would have, like, really weird feelings and areas where another one saw something.

[B]

Whoa. Okay, that's weird.

[A]

An example was that Eleanor never saw a woman shaking a cloth or a cottage that she was in. She doesn't remember a cottage at all, let alone a woman shaking a cloth. But she does remember having a really weird feeling about the air in that specific area that Eleanor described.

[B]

Weird.

[A]

And the thing that really freaked them out is that when Eleanor was like, yeah, and that woman who kept staring at us, or Charlotte or whoever, when she's like, that woman who kept staring at us when she was sketching in the garden. The other one was like, who the are you talking about? I never saw a woman. We were by ourselves.

[B]

Oh, okay. Weird.

[A]

But she. And so I will say, although she didn't see the woman, she had a weird psychic feeling in that exact same spot. She ends it up. This is a quote from her saying, as we approach the terrace, I remember drawing my skirt away with a feeling as though someone was near me and I had to make room. And then wondering why I had done that since we were alone.

[B]

Okay, but doesn't that just. Ooh, I have chills. Doesn't it make you just think of all the times that you feel kind of weird, like someone's right by you or, like, looking at you and you're like, huh, that's odd.

[A]

I. The chills I have is I have crazy, terrible chills.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

And also, what a dream team. One of them can sense things, and one of them can see things.

[B]

Yes. Wow. It's. It's like they were perfectly primed for this to happen.

[A]

So this motivated the women to start digging into the actual history of the property. Wish they had that tour guide now.

[B]

Yeah, they're like, I guess I care.

[A]

Now all of a sudden. We should go back and do the tour again.

[B]

Listen, I'm really interested.

[A]

So they decided to dig into the history of the property to see what they could discover. Now again, 1901. I am so impressed that they were able to find anything without the Internet. Internet, just. Just throwing that out there.

[B]

They're academics, okay?

[A]

And that's where this goes because thank God they know how to research, okay? This is what they were able to discover without the Internet. Which means if they could do this, you can do just about anything. Women in STEM, they found maps from 1774, 1783, and 1789 that showed the following. A now removed bridge that they had walked across it. It was the bridge they walked across that they couldn't find when they looked back.

[B]

Oh, gosh.

[A]

Okay, Remember they said we were just walking here. Where the hell is the bridge? It existed in the 1780s.

[B]

Okay, 1780s. So now they're in 1901. What is the difference in time?

[A]

120 something years.

[B]

So if we were to see someone to be like there at time, it's like 1800 going.

[A]

All right, no, 1900.

[B]

That's. So it would be like right when they were there. Yeah, creepy. Fine.

[A]

Okay, so if we see something from.

[B]

1901, you're the old fashioned ghost. Huh?

[A]

Must hurt. They also, through these maps, found the wooden cottage that Eleanor claimed she saw. It was in the exact same spot that she claimed to see it. The wooden kiosk that they stumbled upon and then couldn't find again, and gardens that they swear they saw and walk through, but in. In that in 1901 did not exist anymore, but they found them on the map.

[B]

Oh, creepy.

[A]

They also found photos, which I'm imagining is like oil portraits instead of like a Kodak situation. They found portraits of the property from decades before showing old farming buildings where one of them had seen a bunch of abandoned farming buildings and equipment, including the old plow. It was literally in pictures. And she was like, that was the plow I saw.

[B]

They probably would have had had cameras a couple decades earlier, right? Like late 1800s. Because if that would have been so. Yeah, so of the plow. Wow, that's creepy because like, how would you know that?

[A]

Yeah, I don't know what a plow from the 1780s looks like, but so they actually looked further into that specific plow and they were able to figure out that it was Louis XVI's actual plow that he sold during the French Revolution. And since that plow was sold during The French Revolution, the land had not been plowed that way again.

[B]

Wow. Okay. So there should be no reason for that to be anywhere.

[A]

Yeah. So in 1901, why would there be a plow at all if it hadn't been plowed since the 1700s?

[B]

That's creepy.

[A]

Side note, convinced that this could not be true because they were like, this is too fucking weird, the women did go back and visit the grounds again and retrace their steps and confirmed they could not find anything that they had originally walked across.

[B]

Oh, creepy.

[A]

They also discovered the. The farm staff back in the day wore greenish gray coats.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And they were like, ah, that doesn't really look totally like what I saw. And then they ended up finding people that wore the exact same outfit they saw, and it was the outfits of Mary Antoinette's personal guards.

[B]

Oh, okay, I see. So there. Oh, see that. See, that's. I find that very, like, like, validating that they were like, actually, no, these don't really look right. And then found ones that did look right. Like, they weren't like, yeah, totally. That's what I saw.

[A]

You know, and apparently I did not look. This could have been such an ADHD rabbit hole. You have to be so proud of me. I didn't look into this. But apparently the green outfits of farm staff, specifically in the 1780s, the color was. The green color was discontinued as part of the royal. The royal staff and is no longer a color used in France. So basically, the outfits that they saw, you can't even get an outfit like that now because they don't even make them.

[B]

So you wouldn't even work in that. Yeah, okay. Wow. Wow.

[A]

And then the ones that they did find ended up looking like Mariannette's personal guards. Now, remember, there was a man who ran out of the chapel and told them that they were too close to the Queen's private entrance and they needed to leave. That chapel had been bolted shut for a century, so no reason a man should have been able to run out of that thing.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

In fact, the area they were in had been open to the public since the 1870s, so for the last 30 years by the time they got there. So there was no reason for someone to make them leave.

[B]

Wait, you said there it was open or was not? Oh, it was open. So they were. They were allowed to be there. Oh, I see.

[A]

Okay. So when this guy is like, this is the private entrance for the Queen. It hadn't been a private. Private entrance for 30 years.

[B]

Oh, that's creepy.

[A]

Now, assuming that the green Outfits they saw were, in fact, Marie Antoinette's personal guards. Then the person who told them that they needed to leave for the chapel because it was the private entrance might have been a guy named Lagrange, who was also, in the 1780s, the one in charge of Marie Antoinette's private door. So they're thinking they ran into, like, another one of her guards.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

In the portraits that they were looking through when they found the plow, they also discovered one of a man in a cloak and a wide brimmed hat with a very rough complexion. And they believed.

[B]

I don't like this guy.

[A]

This was Comte de Vaudreuil, and he apparently was a traitor. Ended up going against Marie Antoinette. Something like that.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

And they also ended up finding. This is my favorite one. They found the personal diary of Marie Antoinette's seamstress. Without the Internet, they just fucking found this. And what they found her personal journal. And in it, this seamstress described the outfits that she had made for Marie Antoinette. And one of the ones that she had made was the exact outfit that they saw that woman in the garden wearing. Which means that Charlie and Eleanor may have ran into Mary Antoinette.

[B]

Right. Because. And she was known to paint on the property, I think.

[A]

Yeah. And remember, this was her shishi. This was her. Her private area.

[B]

Yeah. This is her private entrance. Get away. Oh, my God.

[A]

It would make sense that they. That no one else was there except for them and this random woman. It was supposed to be her private space. And no wonder she was staring at them like, get the. Out of my private area. This is my shoes.

[B]

But also, probably not, like, screaming, because it's like, who are you and what are you? And, like, why are you dressed? Like, you probably look, like, totally out of place. Out of sorts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, it must just be so trippy.

[A]

So it would make sense. And also, like the verse, I should have had more tourists in the area that's allegedly open to the public. But it was just right.

[B]

Fair point.

[A]

This woman staring at them and obviously looking uncomfortable. They were there. And then a man coming out saying, this is a private entrance. You have to leave.

[B]

And no sound. And no.

[A]

Yeah. Later in their research, Charlotte and Eleanor also found a portrait of Marie Antoinette in the same outfit they saw the woman wearing in the garden.

[B]

Oh, my God. I wonder if it was, like, her favorite outfit and that's why she was a ghost in it.

[A]

First of all, love that. I hadn't even thought about that being her ghost outfit. But what I thought. An interesting add on to that is that this portrait that they found of her wearing that outfit is considered to be one of the most realistic portraits of Marie Antoinette to have been made.

[B]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[A]

So it's no big deal. Of the things she could have been wearing that they see her and happens to be claimed to be one of the most realistic things that she would have worn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Keep in mind, like I already said this, but Marie Antoinette loved this garden. She was known to sketch out there. She was also known to be in that area at a particular time in history. She was sitting out in the garden sketching, when she found out that a mob. An insurrection, was approaching the castle, which would then lead to her imprisonment and. And ultimate.

[B]

Dun, dun, dun.

[A]

When she was sitting out there that day, that she was sitting out there and was told that it's a bad day for you. This is your last good day getting a sketch out in the garden. That day was on August 10, 1792. And it's rumored that every August, people still see Marie Antoinette in the garden. And Charlotte and Eleanor visited the palace on August 10, the anniversary. 1901. So on the anniversary of her finding out that she was about to be.

[B]

Arrested, like her last good day on the property, basically.

[A]

So the more that they looked into all this, the more that the women believed they somehow were transported back to her last good day.

[B]

Geez. Oh, I got the goose cam again. That is so creepy, dude.

[A]

They had different opinions. Charlotte thought more that they entered a time slip and witnessed the actual day in history.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Meanwhile, Eleanor claimed that the energy of the area kind of let them tap into Marie Antoinette's memories of her last happy moments.

[B]

Oh. Oh, interesting. Okay.

[A]

I don't know which one. I would imagine it's more a time slip because the woman seemed to interact with them versus, like, you're just viewing through her eyes. What happens.

[B]

Agreed. I feel like this. To me, it's a time slip because you're still. Yeah. From your own perspective, experiencing everything. It's just, like, different.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I think, but I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, that would be my gut.

[A]

So remember I said that they visited the grounds again to see what they would find or not find. So what? When they went back, the property looked completely different and had allegedly been that way for decades. So they should have. It shouldn't have looked any different than the last time they were there. But it looks. All of a sudden, it looked like it was the 1900s versus the 1780s. 1790s.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In 1902. So this is a year after they had Their crazy experience. Eleanor made a visit back by herself and had another eerie experience out there. She felt the same depression, sorrow, heaviness again and saw two workers in old fashioned clothing who vanished when she turned back around to see them a second time. Time. She also felt like there were several people around her. When she couldn't see anyone nearby and she heard old faint band like live music playing.

[B]

Was she the one who. Who saw Marie Antoinette or was she the one who just felt like people were.

[A]

She was the one who I think saw things, so it's interesting that she only.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But she did see the two workers and they faded, right?

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

But she did feel like other people were around and couldn't see them. Then she heard this music and she even asked the property like, oh, is there a band performing somewhere?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Nobody was scheduled to perform that day. And even if they were, the place where bands were held to perform was so far away, you wouldn't have been able to hear it where she was standing.

[B]

Oh, okay. Yeah. So not the answer.

[A]

So Eleanor did make sure to write down a few bars of the music and then she brought it back to like Oxford University and played it for music people.

[B]

She would. Did.

[A]

And they were like, that's so funny. Why? Where did you hear this from? Because this music is dated back to like the 1780s.

[B]

Stop it.

[A]

Isn't that crazy?

[B]

Stop.

[A]

Another time that she went back. This is. I think, I think the last time she went back and had a creepy experience, she felt another, for the third time, a similar heaviness and sorrow. She saw two women become translucent, which is what she saw with Marie Antoinette. It. And she also saw the buildings around them seeming to fade away. All except for two pillars of a building. And when she looked into it, and then when she looked into it later, those pillars were the oldest structures on the property. So she probably time slipped into a place where the pillars still existed, but nothing else had been built yet.

[B]

Ew.

[A]

Isn't that wild?

[B]

That's. So I would never go back. I'd be like, I'm gonna get lost stuck in one of these. These also.

[A]

It's like, imagine having that gift and you're an archaeologist. You can just be like, nope, I have to go back further because it's still. It still exists. Nope. And like, you could just go back to whatever year and be like, oh, they're building it now.

[B]

Like, how do you even do that?

[A]

I don't. I. Once you harness your power, she would be right.

[B]

I'm like, how crazy. I'm like stop going there until you figure it out because otherwise you're just going to keep getting like, what if.

[A]

You get stuck there?

[B]

Yes, that's my fear.

[A]

So later in life, the women visited again and they felt the, the oppressive sadness, heaviness in the air and they just left right away. They're like, I don't want to see it. So.

[B]

Yeah, good, good.

[A]

But I, I also wonder like, why, if this is all true, if at least they're feeling something really eerie. Do you think it's like they're primed to feel something eerie because they did the last few times? Or do you think they for some reason are like tapped into something where like they feel it every time because nobody else seems to be having these experiences?

[B]

Yeah, I feel like the, the follow up visits almost make me question it more because it's like, wait, like if it's one thing, I feel like if it happens and then you go back and everything's back to normal and you're like, I swear there was a bridge and you find the bridge. But like to go back multiple times and keep slipping in time is like, I mean, listen, not that I know, and I know lightning strikes twice sometimes, but it's just a strange thing. Maybe one of them, like maybe the one who kept coming back like, does have some weird, weird ability to place or time or ability. And maybe like because the other one was with her, they both got kind of sucked into this. I don't know. It's, it's.

[A]

I, I agree. I feel like one of the most difficult things about paranormal experiences is that they can't be replicated and replicate exactly. If you're really able to replicate this, why don't you bring out researchers and it feels, and have them watch what happens to you in real time, you know? Right. Like a lot of experimenting could have been done if this really is something.

[B]

You can harness, but maybe she just didn't.

[A]

If she went like 15 times and this only happened three, then maybe. But it sounds like every time she went there was an experience. So I'm like, that's interesting question.

[B]

Yeah, that, that sounds fishy to me. Or at least like a little muddying the water, you know?

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So after all that they experienced, actually we're kind of about to talk about it. After all that they experienced, after all their personal research, they turned all of or they turned to others for help in figuring out what happened to them. And the first thing they did was take all of their evidence, all their maps, all their portraits, their personal Diaries. And they went to the spr, the Society of Psychical Research.

[B]

Aha. Our favorite.

[A]

Who immediately pretty much said, despite your reputation in high academia and your ability to research, this doesn't stick. There's just. We don't. All we have to go off of, basically, is, like, the story you could have conjured up. And.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's nothing.

[B]

And, like, you have pictures of the plow, but, like, whatever. You could have found the pictures of.

[A]

The plow and then said, you saw plow.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

Yeah. So they said, unfortunately, there's not a lot of credibility here, so there's nothing we can do.

[B]

Lame.

[A]

Pretty much right after this, they were like. They felt super dismissed and, like, two powerful women. They were like, we'll just do it ourselves. So they decided that they were going to build their own case. They were going to find every inch of evidence they possibly could, and they wrote a book, and the book was called An Adventure, and it came out in 1911.

[B]

An adventure. An adventure, certainly.

[A]

And the book included all the maps that they'd found, timelines of what had happened to them. Any evidence they had, they. They put it in there. Afraid that others would critique them, though, they decided to use fake names because they still had their careers to worry about. They didn't want to be, like, laughed out of their jobs.

[B]

Yeah. Also, like, their livelihood to not be institutionalized or something. Yeah, like, great.

[A]

Exactly. So they used pseudonyms. They used the names Elizabeth Morrison and Francis Lamont. I know. I wish I knew what my name would be if I had to have a fake name.

[B]

I know. I was like, what would my name be? It's hard to. It's hard to say. I feel like I would be Eleanor somebody. Like, I would take her name.

[A]

I feel like my name would be, like, Felix or something crazy.

[B]

I'd be like Eleanor Rigby. Stop it.

[A]

My name would have to have an X or a Z or some, like, unusual.

[B]

You would just.

[A]

Just for the fun.

[B]

Attention.

[A]

The only reason I like my last name because there's a Z in it.

[B]

Oh, that's true. What about Axel?

[A]

You know, you. I like Axel. I do. My stepdad, he told me that I have a stepbrother named Brendan. And apparently I was like, oh, if you weren't gonna name him Brendan, what are you gonna name him? And my stepdad had the audacity to say Quiller in no. And I was like, what? I wish, like, Quill Quillerin or Quill Quillerin. Quillerin. I think, actually Eva would know this because. And he did not know Eva's relationship to this at all. But my stepdad was like, oh, yeah, from the Cat who series, which, like, Eva loves the Cat who series.

[B]

What's the Cat who series? Oh.

[A]

She did a whole podcast about the Cat who series, right?

[B]

Mystery book. The Cozy Mysteries. Oh, okay, Wait, Tom read that book.

[A]

Apparently he loves the series as much as Eva and then almost named his.

[B]

Son after the brain is like breaking. Trying to process this.

[A]

Fun fact, everybody. When Eva first, I think, interviewed with us or one of her first days working for us, she brought us both books from the Cat who series that she thought both of us would like.

[B]

I don't remember mine.

[A]

Oh, mine was the Cat who Talks to ghosts, I think.

[B]

Oh, cute. I don't remember mine. I'm sure it's here somewhere since I don't get rid of anything, but I'll find it eventually.

[A]

If you find a cat who book, it's from Eva when she first started working with us.

[B]

Good to know, actually. Yeah.

[A]

But no. The only other person I've ever heard talk about the Cat who series was even random. And then Tom was like, oh, yeah, we almost named Brendan after the cat who series.

[B]

I was like, that's a wild coincidence. Yeah. That's. Anyway, strange.

[A]

I could see Quiller in being a name I go with if I'm going for like a. Like a.

[B]

A.

[A]

A sneaky name.

[B]

Yeah, Quillerin is pretty. I do like Felix too. I feel like that kind of is, like, playful and, like, has the X. X factor, if you will.

[A]

It's. It's an I. I would go with a name that, like, feels like a character on Pink Panther or something.

[B]

Totally, totally. Quiller and Felix iii.

[A]

It's exactly right.

[B]

I don't know what word you kept saying me either.

[A]

Anyway, those are their pseudonyms that they used in their book. Elizabeth Morrison and Francis Lamont. And their true identities were only revealed in later editions. I think, like, five different editions of this book came out.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So only the later ones did their actual names get used in the book. And this was also in, like, the 1930s after at least one of them had died. So their reputations didn't totally matter anymore.

[B]

The way that it did.

[A]

Originally, the book was a massive hit. It became a movie in. In the 1980s. I actually really, I wanted to watch it. It looks like it was like, like a Hallmark made for TV movie.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Looks very healthy.

[B]

So cheesy.

[A]

Oh, the movie is called Ms. Mora, Ms. Morrison's Ghosts.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it looks not good. So I can't wait to watch it. It's like a campy situation.

[B]

It feels like a fun, like, sleepover, drinking game movie.

[A]

If anyone needs something kind of cheesy to watch, go watch Ms. Morton's Ghost. It's on YouTube. And from the book came the movie. From the movie came a BBC radio play. And then again, the books are like a podcast. Like a podcast. And the book was republished multiple times, but with different names. So another version of the same book is the Ghosts of Trianon A Complete the Complete and Adventure.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And then, despite the craze of the book, many skeptics were quick to tear the story apart. A lot of the com. The common theories were that they stumbled upon a reenactment or a movie set, although none were scheduled. I know none of. No filming was scheduled. And that wouldn't explain the property wide structural changes, like houses missing or like the woods being differently shaped than they should be.

[B]

It doesn't make sense. No.

[A]

Another theory is that they stumbled upon a private party, which at the time, there actually was a famous French artist who lived nearby and he did host theme parties at Versailles.

[B]

So they were like Kim Kardashian.

[A]

And his name. His name was Kanye West. So they really, like, maybe he was throwing a party and people were in costume and you stumbled upon that. But they're like, there was no party. We were on a tour. Like, it didn't. That's not true.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like we're missing a big part of, like, the point here, which is that. Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, another theory is that their memories influenced each other's recollection, which I could see that happening. Yeah, I guess basically that they both talk. Or an example is that they both talked about a woman in the garden, even though only one actually saw her, and then the other one just kind of went with it. That a lot of the individual stories don't overlap. It's as if they each had half of the story and then kind of clumped them together and just believed each other. Basically. Their stories don't line up.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So a lot of people are like, oh, you just are letting each other inform the other's memory of what happened.

[B]

I mean, I think you're. I think you made a good point. Like they're perceiving it differently. Whatever. Whatever.

[A]

Another theory is that they were under a trance or some sort of shared hallucination due to the heat that day, but it was not that hot. But. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Another is that they were victims of a prank or that they are Pranking us. Another theory is that they were just simply misinterpreting normal events because they got lost and didn't know where they were. And so they were. And on top of that, that they were just finding pretty much pictures and evidence through maps and everything, that they were probably ignoring other facts while just. Just looking for facts that justified confirmation.

[B]

Bias, like, trying to, like, bolster their. Okay, I mean, like, I guess if. Like, whatever. I think that's just silly, but whatever.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

But I. I just take so much out of it. Like, it just takes so much. Like, you have to. It just doesn't explain, like, 80 of the story, you know?

[A]

Well, the SPR actually made a good. I think it was the SPR. They made a good point saying that they think that most of this is just both of them influencing each other's memory of things. Because, remember, there was never an immediate written account about this. They only both talked about it once. Like, maybe three months had passed.

[B]

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair.

[A]

And on top of it, the fact that they wrote five editions of this book, and, like, in each book, there was more or less added or removed of their experiences makes it kind of shady because people are like, well, why did you not mention that in this book? Or why did you add this thing? That's, like, really spooky. But you didn't put it in the first book.

[B]

Yeah, that's a little bit fishy.

[A]

And by the time all the editions had come out, it was, like, years and years and years later. So, like, are you only remembering something now, or are you bringing this up to, like, give this one flair? Also, in their book, this is not a good look. They wrote a whole fake chapter in the perspective of Marie Antoinette. Seeing them slip.

[B]

My goodness. Okay, that's a little creative liberty here. Yeah.

[A]

And which, I mean, we both know if we went through a time slip and we saw someone who seemed to look right at us, we would talk about it forever. Like, what do you think they experienced?

[B]

Yeah. And I feel like, you know, we. I can understand the desire to, like, get creative with it, but I feel like to put it in your book as that you're trying. That you're saying is, like, factually what happened is a little bit like. Okay, that's confusing.

[A]

It's like. Like, a whole chapter of this is obviously actually, admittedly fiction. So, like, where does that put the rest of this?

[B]

You know, it's a little weird. It's like, so how are we gonna. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I totally agree.

[A]

Which like, as someone who loves a time slip, if I read that chapter, I would probably be like, that's my favorite chapter of the whole book. I'm so glad you added it. But I would be like, but now I can't trust any of this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So it just brings doubt onto the rest of the book.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And then the last theory, which is the least likely, I think it's certainly the most ridiculous, but it's also the most grabby of the theories is a homosexual foliage.

[B]

Oh, homosexual, you say?

[A]

AKA a shared delusion. Because they were, quote, so distracted by their relationship that they misinterpreted ordinary people and events around them. Like they were so goo goo gaga and love that they don't even really totally remember the day. And they just go kind of patchworked it together and it ended up sounding spookier than it was. This was implied that they were in a relationship by many sources. But it, it seems based on what I have found, it looks like most of that rumor came from one former student who did not like them and was trying to make them look really bad.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And tried to just say, well, they were gay as a way to like discredit them. And they were both, both single women without children and they were kind of, you know, well, one was middle aged, one was older, but maybe they just had like an age gap relationship.

[B]

And so they're spinsters already and they.

[A]

Were traveling to France together. Like, you could easily romanticize that. Yeah, but all of.

[B]

I mean, it is romantic whether they like it or not.

[A]

You know, they held each other when they saw a kiosk.

[B]

I don't know. A kiosk.

[A]

No, but we don't actually know if they were queer. I mean, as a queer, I certainly hope they were just for the fun of it.

[B]

I mean, who isn't at this point? But whatever, whatever.

[A]

But there's really no evidence outside of like what this one person with. With a hatred for them stating it. So. And, and that because it's again, the punchiest of the theories, people often say like, oh, this is like a shared delusion between lesbians, which is crazy.

[B]

That's a wild thing to say. Like, that's like saying, oh, anyone on a first date who's in love and having an affair or like a love affair, like they're just. They can't. You can't.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Understand the world around. It's just so bizarre. Like, what? Okay, whatever.

[A]

I have been goo goo gaga enough in an early part of a queer relationship where, like, I could have walked into a time slip and I wouldn't even notice like that. So if anything, okay, against the theory, fair. So it's, it's said that outside of this experience, regardless of whatever the theories are, outside of this experience, both women had, had had separate paranormal encounters throughout their lives, both before and after this interesting situation. So I guess that helps them look more legit. Like this wasn't a fluke. Like we've already had weird shit happen in our lives. Like this one was just when we were together in the same room. Although personally I don't know about Eleanor's encounters like her paranormal encounters. It sounds like she was dealing with some mental health situations. Like there were stories of like oh, she saw a ghost dancing in the hall and then she saw this and then she saw this. And same for Charlotte. Charlotte was also seeing things or hearing things. But the ver. The stories I saw about Eleanor's for some reason cross into like feeling a little, a little absurd, a little maybe far fetched. Just like maybe like she, let's just put this way, she thought that there were spies hiding in the school trying to get her.

[B]

Oh, okay, so like paranoia basically.

[A]

Paranoia. She was having visions that led to erratic behavior.

[B]

It's like hallucinations, that kind of thing.

[A]

Like it didn't feel paranormal, it felt more like a psychological situation.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Meanwhile, Charlotte's stories felt more spooky, paranormal, out of her control or out of her realm. It one just felt spiritually creepy and one of them felt psychologically like maybe she needed some guidance. But then again, like where is the line on that? We could talk about that forever.

[B]

Yeah. And who knows? Like back then everybody was so into like the spiritual stuff. There's like all the knocking and people believed stuff like that. So like maybe it was just like oh, she's confabulating it to make it sound like more dramatic for people who, you know, I don't know, I don't know.

[A]

And also, unfortunately, like as much as I want to believe in like a time slip and hauntings and stuff like that, her maybe having some psychological stuff to work through does hurt the validity of this whole incident because she was the one who remember was seeing things and Charlotte was just feeling things. Which you and I could go to a history place and feel like, oh, this one feels a little spooky. Like yeah, oh, this 200 year old thing does feel haunted to me. Hahaha. And then not see.

[B]

Especially if you're alone in the woods. Yeah. Like in a kind of old historic place. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And Eleanor seems to have only seen things, which maybe she really was, but maybe she wasn't. You know what I mean?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay, so Eleanor was. I think this was Eleanor. I. I hope I didn't mix them up. I think Eleanor was the one who was originally principal of the school. Whoever was the first principal of the school. She ended up dying, actually. Drama. She died mid scandal at the school right before she was going to be told to quit. And then she literally died.

[B]

What happened?

[A]

She seemed to have like real beef with another teacher. And I think she fired the teacher for like, not really legitimate reasons. And then the rest of the staff and like defiance all threatened to also leave.

[B]

Oh, shoot.

[A]

It became a whole mess. So she ends up up literally dying instead of quitting. And then Charlotte or Eleanor, whoever was originally the vice principal, she ended up taking over. Okay, so when people say like, oh, well, you know, whatever the theories of what happened, whichever really happened, at least they were credible because of their reputations at school. It sounds like a lot of people kind of hated them. So I don't really know if they're. Maybe they were.

[B]

It sounds like they're causing problems.

[A]

Maybe they were smart academics, but like, just not liked, like socially as popular. Yeah, fun fact. Which only adds to the gay factor. They are now buried near each other in the same cemetery. And their research and evidence, by the way, after this whole incident is still at Oxford University in one of their libraries.

[B]

No way. So, okay, that counts for something.

[A]

And those who believe that the incident was real say it was most likely either a time slip, a haunting, or retrocognition, which is being transported into someone's memories. Super cool.

[B]

Okay, well, that's what one of them thought, right?

[A]

And to this day, the property is still allegedly haunted, which I'm sure I could do a whole episode on Versailles. Yeah, but this area specifically is that people say that they get weird chills, they see apparitions in old fashioned clothing, there's weird shifts in energy, that there's time loss, and then all of a sudden you pop up in a new area with no recollection. And like mentioned earlier, every August, people claim to see Marie Antoinette out there there on the anniversary, that she was impressed. I don't know how much of that or those haunting rumors are informed by this incident.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I don't know. Chicken or the egg situation. But anyway, that is the Moberly Jordan incident, AKA the Versailles time slip.

[B]

Dang, dude, that was.

[A]

Sorry, that was so long.

[B]

No, it's just bonkers. Like it would be so cool to experience something like that. And also so mind like you would be so that like for the rest.

[A]

Of my life I would question my own.

[B]

For the rest of your life you would question reality and everything. Oh my God.

[A]

Like you'd have the best icebreaker story but you'd be like. I don't even know if I should say it.

[B]

You know, I was gonna say, but you probably wouldn't feel comfortable telling anyone. At the same time, you'd have to.

[A]

Really get to know somebody or like on a, like at one of those parties where like you're sitting in a corner together, super fucked up and like you just get weirdly deep for no reason and you never see each other again.

[B]

Both like. Yep. In the same kind of headspace. Just dropping truth bombs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow.

[A]

Anyway, I saw Time Slip. I was very excited to tell you that one.

[B]

I love a time slip, as you know. That was lovely. M. Good job.

[A]

Thank you. Now that I have been home for a while, while Christine handles the road, I have been going to all my doctors, giving them a wave and fondly reminiscing on the fact that I found them through zocdoc.

[B]

Yeah, we've loved zocdoc for years. It's just one of those things that I. I've found indispensable. I don't think I would be really quite as healthy or alive without it. Not to be dramatic, but they've helped me connect with dermatologists, with GI doctors, with therapist, with psychiatry. I mean really everything across the board. Zocch is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doc doctors and click to instantly book an appointment with zoc.

[A]

Do you can book in network appointments with more than a hundred thousand doctors? Every time I see that number blows my mind. A hundred thousand doctors across every specialty from mental health to dental health, primary care to urgent care and more. My primary doctor, I found him through ZOC Doc and through the butterfly effect. He led me to my cardiologist. All sorts of people. My psychiatrist is through ZOC Doc, who was also recommended by Christine, by the way.

[B]

Yes. And appointments made through zocdoc, which we've also talked about a lot happen fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours. As in like we got anxiety diagnoses within 48 hours for, for both of us, I think. Stop putting off those doctor appointments and go to Zocdoc.com drink to find and instantly book a top rate doctor today.

[A]

That's z o c doc.com drink zocdoc.com drink. Sometimes life can get a little crazy. I don't think I've experienced a moment of life not being crazy lately. So one thing that can help you if your life's a little crazy to unwind is Cornbread Hemp CBD gummies.

[B]

Oh, they're a game changer. Keep them in a little rolly cart. I keep one in my bathroom and one by. In case I'm brushing my teeth and I realize, oh, I haven't taken my gum. My. My CBD gummy yet. And I take. Keep them in my nightstand just in case. I love Cornbread Hemp cbd. They are made to help you feel better, whether it's stress, discomfort, needing a little relaxation, all of the above. And they're formulated to help relieve discomfort, stress, and sleeplessness.

[A]

Yeah. They only use the best part of the hemp plant, the flower for the purest and most potent cbd. So regardless of what's going on in your life, Cornbread Hemp CBD gummies are just a little dash of help help right now.

[B]

And that's where drink listeners can save 30 on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com drink and use code DRINK at checkout.

[A]

That's cornbreadhemp.com Drink and use code drink. Can I. After. After that lovely ad break everyone just got, and before you tell your story, can I tell you I remember the reason why I drank?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I, in the middle of the night, decided to tear all the wallpaper off the walls.

[B]

No. You are like me. Don't ever fucking pretend like you're not exactly like me ever again. Show me. Where is it?

[A]

It's facing that way. You wouldn't be able to see.

[B]

Okay, send me pictures later.

[A]

And the plan was like, oh, I'm gonna surprise Allison. And now I'm like, oh, fuck. Now I gave myself, like, a whole task.

[B]

What do you mean it'll surprise her when she comes home and there's wallpaper on the walls? It's a great surprise.

[A]

Well, I was like, man, like, that house still, like, we haven't touched it at all. And then it wasn't really an excuse. It was legitimate. The whole time, I've been saying, like. Like, I want the whole. I don't want the walls to be, like, white. Like, I want them to be painted and have things hanging on the walls and have all this decoration. I was like, I haven't done anything. And I've been, like, in this house alone for, like, five months. I should, like, do something. And I Saw there's this wallpaper in the hallway that I just fucking hated. And I was like, I'm just.

[B]

Oh, Well, I mean, it sounded like it had to go. I. I'm on your side with this. Sorry.

[A]

Thank you. Well, Allison. The good part is that Allison and I had already decided it would be changed. So it's not like I'm tearing something down that she likes. Like, it was something that she felt.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was understood that it's gonna change. So if she doesn't like what I do with it, we can just change it again.

[B]

But do you know what you're gonna do with it?

[A]

No, I just tore it down. I was like, I'll figure it out later. And now I'm like, oh, fuck, I gotta figure something out.

[B]

You will figure it out. My. I mean, my mom still has their kitchen half torn, the walls just like, half torn. Plaster coming down. And they just left it like that. And it's been 10. It was like a drunken thing one night where they're like. Let's. Let's say their floors. If the floors finally got done. But. Yeah. So I. I have faith that you'll do it sooner than my mother ever will, which is probably.

[A]

Thank you. It'll certainly be a 3am decision. I don't think an idea is coming when I'm, like, really awake and solid.

[B]

It's got to just. You've got to just kind of let it come to you. You can't force it.

[A]

It's cooking. It's cooking. But anyway, I remember when I was tearing the wallpaper of. I was like, this is a good reason to drink. And then I just never mentioned it.

[B]

So it's a good reason. Yeah. That you did to yourself. Which is my favorite kind of reason.

[A]

You know, if it hadn't been the middle of the night, I might have had some reason to me and I wouldn't have done it. But sometimes the best things happen when you just kind of have to give yourself forgiveness.

[B]

The best. And the worst things happen when you really want to kind of kick yourself in the head. That's so nice.

[A]

Anyway.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Sorry, Allison. Hope you like it.

[B]

What if. What if she hears this before she gets home and is like, what did you do? Do?

[A]

That's a great. Oh, well, whatever. Whatever.

[B]

I mean, it's still a while. We're pretty far in advance, I feel.

[A]

When it comes out when I.

[B]

Sometime in September. I don't know. A couple weeks, hopefully.

[A]

She's not listening. Allison, if you're listening, pretend you don't know what's going on and act surprise when you get home and be happy also.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also stop complaining.

[A]

What's your problem? I'm just.

[B]

Isn't it beautiful in your hallway right now?

[A]

Yeah, just a lot of oohs and ahs. Take you a long way, Allison.

[B]

I'll tell you, it's about all we need. Oh, boy. Okay, well, I have a story for you. This is one that I've wanted to cover since the, oh, my God, like, first year of our podcast. Maybe second year.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It may be not that old, but it's a story that Dateline did a podcast series on called the Thing about Pan. And I remember listening to it so vividly that I remember being at Ross for Less and wandering through the aisles and just hearing Keith Morrison and being so, like, transfixed by the story. I binged the entire thing in like a day, maybe two days, I don't know. But I remember that so vividly. And then years later, it like, turned into a series and then like a miniseries on tv, this whole thing. But all that to say, I've been wanting to cover this for so long. And finally, here we are. This is the case of Betsy Faria. And I'm guessing you don't know about this is.

[A]

You said it's a documentary title. Because I feel like that title sounds familiar, but I don't know what it is.

[B]

Also, it was a Dateline multi episode series and then it became a miniseries, like a dramatized miniseries with Renee Zellweger.

[A]

Nope, don't know about it. I do know, though, that I have a strong opinion already about something you've done.

[B]

Something I've done.

[A]

Do you really call it Ross for Less?

[B]

That was kind of a joke. Okay, thank God it's Ross. But I was like, I was at a Ross for Less. It just sounds funnier.

[A]

I mean, it was. I, I. But I was like, oh, boy. I was like this.

[B]

Oh, no, no. It's like if I was saying, like, the Kroger marketplace, you know, I'm just.

[A]

Like what I call Michael's. Michelle's like, I understand.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, I understand. It's just like, it's just like a little fun twist on the norm after.

[A]

The goddamn jig and gig. I never know what's real anymore.

[B]

Asking because people probably were gonna message me about it. So thank you for clarifying that.

[A]

Or like the beef thing. Now I'm lost on it. I'll never know if it's beef or a beef. I'll never know.

[B]

It's Both.

[A]

Well, okay. Anyway, I felt, I felt it was gonna sit with me if I didn't ask.

[B]

I appreciate it. Okay. And this is one of the craziest stories of my life. Of your life, of any life. It is just so batshit.

[A]

I'm excited.

[B]

I cannot believe it's taken me this long to get here, but here we go. So we're back in the late 1990s. Betsy Faria, she lived in Troy, Missouri. Nearby her mother and her two daughters from a former marriage. She worked a day job in insurance, but was a dj, a part time DJ on the side. Hey, girl. I know. And she was a very like fun, bubbly, lively person. The DJing was sort of like her passion project, you know, kind of like Zach Baggins. No, his side, hustle, word, piano, bank, hanging. Yeah, his is more just like, like kind of a one man show about himself. So I wouldn't say that's necessarily DJing. But she was a disc jockey in the realest sense, I guess. And she like loved to get people, you know, dancing and she was just a very fun person. And she met her husband, Russ Faria around this time and he loved this about her, he loved how outgoing they were. And they got married in 2000 and Russ ended up becoming the father to Mariah and Leah, who's who had come from a previous marriage and they considered Russ their father. So Marie, Mariah. Excuse me. Mariah was only three when her mom met Russ, so she didn't know a time before he was her dad. Basically, like that's how. That's kind of how the family unit was built. So at the start of the. I hate to do this to you. I just heard rolling thunder come through.

[A]

You evil, evil one.

[B]

I. I'm telling you, I didn't do it on purpose. Maybe subconsciously, but not intentional. But yeah, it is coming in hot. So jealous of you, man. I can. You know what I'll do? I have a. There's one singular for some fucking reason. I mean, I'm not complaining. But one sunroof or what is that called? Skylight. Skylight. It's a wild word. Skylight.

[A]

A sunroof is just a skylight in a car.

[B]

That's right. Okay, so the skylight up in the ceiling, it's a good idea in theory because it's like I live in like kind of a townhouse, so it's like tied up with other houses. So it's like. Oh, it's a way to get light in when there are no windows on the wall. But Also, when it rains, it's so fucking loud because it's just a giant pane of glass.

[A]

And I don't think anyone thought it through.

[B]

No, no, they did. Okay.

[A]

For the asmr, for the vibes.

[B]

It actually is, like, really nice. I'm not gonna lie. I'm not complaining.

[A]

But especially, like, the optics of it all. Like, when it's dark and then like, even the roof is like, kind of stormy, gloomy.

[B]

It actually really. The problem is that one of the cats peed right under there somewhere. And I cannot for the life of me find it because I keep swiffering the same hardwood floors and I'm like, it's somewhere in either. So I can sort of faintly smell cat piss, which doesn't really help. But if I put the laptop and just like open the screen, you won't. There's no smell o vision here. You can just watch. Everyone can just stream the. Wow. It's really. It's really good going out there.

[A]

I'm so jealous. I'm so jealous.

[B]

Sorry. I swear I was gonna. Don't worry. It's 90 degrees here and all sunny. And now. Well, okay.

[A]

I'm telling you, it's the one. The one thing that might get me to ever move back to the east coast is rain.

[B]

I mean, I get it. It really does affect my mood greatly. Like, I get just calmer instantly. It's like the cortisol just drops, you know? Okay. Anyway, I'm so sorry. Mariah was only three, and so she had always known Russ as her dad. And at the start of the marriage, Russ and Betsy were a good team. Betsy was very encouraging and. And, you know, encouraged him to go back to school for computer science and get a good degree. So he ended up getting a pretty good job and they were able to move into a new house together with their two daughters. But as time went on, Russ and Betsy had a few issues in their marriage. They started arguing more and questioning whether it was worth sticking with each other long term. And it almost seemed like divorce was inevitable. But they kind of, in one last ditch effort, decided to go to a pastor. I mean, you know, not my. I guess, last dish effort, maybe.

[A]

Certainly a last ditch effort.

[B]

Yeah, certainly last. Not first, but yeah. They went to a church, a new church together, and they received counseling from a pastor. And I guess this really did the trick. They really, like, bonded. They now had, like, a group of new friends and. And they just started to work things out. Betsy actually told her friend Rita that she was falling in love with Russ. All over again, which I find. Find, like, really, you know, hey, God.

[A]

Sexy, I guess you're doing something, a work within them, if you will.

[B]

It's some cupid, Cupid nonsense. So life was good. But then in early 2010, they faced a new challenge. When Betsy was diagnosed with breast cancer, it came seemingly out of the blue. She was this. She was given this aggressive treatment regimen, which was obviously very physically and emotionally exhausting for her and for her family. Family. But Betsy and Russ had a big support system, and so there were a lot of people who loved them and stepped up with the girls and stepped up with food and driving her to appointments and things like that. And the chemo that she received was near her mom's house. So she was often gonna go to the hospital and then to her mom's, and that way, you know, she wouldn't be around the kids who are going to school and maybe have germs and that kind of thing and just be able to be at her mom's close by and rest before and after her chemo appointments. So sometimes friends and family would drive her to and from appointments. One of these friends was Pam Hupp. She was Betsy's co worker, and she really stepped up for Betsy. At this time, she was driving her to appointments regularly. She was coming by and spending time with her whenever she could and bringing blankets and bringing, you know, supplies. People in Betsy's life described Pam as an extremely kind person. They said, Betsy is so lucky to have such a doting friend who's always checking up. I mean, I mean, I think we can all see that this is becoming red flags. I. The podcast is called A Thing about the Thing About Pam. You know, it's kind of hard to hide.

[A]

Had you not told me the title so far, I'd be, like, on board with Pam. But now I'm like, love bomby. Pam got it.

[B]

I gotta say, the love bombing is really intense. And then, yeah, we'll get into it. She's got some problems, so.

[A]

And.

[B]

And like Renee Zellweger portrays her. I believe there were some issues. Some. There was some discourse around that series because I believe Renee Zellweger wore, like, a. For lack of a better term, fat suit is what everyone kept calling it. Like, to. To look more, you know, to be bigger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. Stockier. Yeah. To look more like Pam. And I feel like people. If I remember correctly, that was kind of not cool. Right. Like, people were not happy about that.

[A]

The controversy being. You could just hire a bigger person.

[B]

Right? Exactly. Like, it just feels unnecessary and also, like, yeah, just kind of. It's just icky. Yeah. And so anyway, we'll get into that, because I do have other commentary on that as well. But basically what I was going to say is in that series, which is very riveting. Like, I mean, Dateline puts on a good show, whether it's like, you know, good for the world or not. I. I don't. Not entirely sure, but sure. They. Keith Morrison knows how to get my. Get that itch in my brain scratched, I guess. And they. From the jump, you're like, oh, Pam is trouble. Like, from the moment the show starts, you're like.

[A]

So they are not even trying, basically. No, they're not even trying to give you, like, a warm into it. And then plot twist.

[B]

It's just something's not even a little bit. Okay. Like, immediately they're like. Like, there's a thing. Here's the thing about Pam. And then Pam's just, like, on the scene, right? Like, it just is like, okay, she's trouble, clearly. So I want to just get that out of the way up front. But. So everyone's like, wow, she's just so caring and doting, and she's always, like, wondering about you. I mean, I hadn't even thought of it as love bombing, but, like, yes, that is the exact situation. Betsy's cancer briefly went to remission, but then she received the devastating news that it had met, metastasized, and spread to other parts of her body. And her doctor estimated that she would only live for another three to five years, which, I mean, I just. It's something unimaginable to me. In autumn 2011, Russ and Betsy went on a cruise to celebrate Betsy's life. I mean, can you imagine, like, knowing you're nearing the end and being like, let's go on a cruise to celebrate? I mean, it just sounds so grim. It's just hard. It's grim, yeah. In just the saddest way. So they went on a cruise because Betsy's lifelong dream was swimming with dolphins. And so they went on this cruise to celebrate her life. They. She got to swim with dolphins, which was good, because only a couple months later, in December, she was coming home from a chemotherapy appointment. This was a little bit after Christmas, December 27th of 2011. And she spent the day at her mom's house before and after the appointment. And meanwhile, Russ spent the day working from home and then headed to a friend's house for their weekly game night, where they were playing Dungeons and Dragons.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

Yeah. So Betsy had arranged a ride home with one of her mom's friends. So Russ was like, great. He and his friends are gonna go have a beer, smoke pot, play Dungeons and Dragons, like, live their best lives. And he'll see his wife later. He doesn't need to, like, go pick her up or anything like that. So he's just, like. Has a night with the. The boys. The boys. The boys. The. The boys, the wizards, the orcs, the whatevers. So Russ enjoyed a worry for evening. But at roughly 9:40pm that night, a 911 call came in from Russ and Betsy's home. It was Russ. He was screaming hysterically, and he told the 911 operator that he had just found his wife on the floor and that she had killed herself. So if you hear the 911 call, it's disturbing. They always are. But I will spare you if you don't want to hear it. Basically, it's just Russ screaming. He's sobbing. The operator is trying to get him to take deep breaths. They ask him if Betsy's still breathing. He says, she's dead. The police arrive quickly. Russ leads them to the living room, where Betsy is on the floor covered in blood. When they took a closer look, it appeared that she had cut her wrists and died of blood loss. And so now they're thinking, like, okay, this could be a suicide. And then they notice the knife sticking out of her neck. And.

[A]

Okay, yeah.

[B]

They sent Russ out of the house and said, this is. We're pretty sure this is a homicide. So Russ went to the sheriff's department for questioning, of course.

[A]

Course, you know. Yeah.

[B]

Check the husband as it is. Yeah. Wrapped in a blanket. He was basically shaking and sobbing uncontrollably. He was like, I'm sure it's the adrenaline, too. You know, when you shake after, like, something like. I mean, something like this, obviously. I don't know, but like a shock to your system. He did his best to answer the officer's questions, and then when they would leave, he would just sob. And when the police asked us if he thought Betsy was capable of harming herself, he did say he didn't think so, but she had talked about suicidal ideation in the past. And so he was like, it's not unheard of. Right. And, you know, the cancer was only exacerbating her mental health concerns. And so he said it's not impossible. Right. I mean, especially after seeing what he just saw. And so when gathering evidence, police are looking at this with a grain of salt. They're thinking, like, okay, okay. He's somehow convinced this is a suicide. But now we have this knife in her neck. Then they find blood on the light switch in Russ and Betsy's bedroom. And inside the bedroom closet, they find a pair of slippers covered in blood. And these are Russ's slippers. So they become certain that Betsy had not died by suicide, but that she had been attacked and killed.

[A]

I mean, it feels like. I mean, I ain't Olivia Benson, but I feel like a knife just hanging out of the neck when that could have easily been pulled away. Or like it doesn't seem like whoever did this. Whoever did this wasn't trying to hide it. Like, it feels kind of, like messy and impulsive or something.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

It doesn't feel like. Like this could have been, quote, done, Done smoother or better if you wanted to get away with it, you know?

[B]

I fully agree, and I'm going to give you more details in just a second that I feel like will add to that. We'll corroborate that, because they're looking at this now as more of an attack. And when they get the autopsy report the following day from the medical examiner, the medical examiner confirms their suspicions and says, of course, these cuts to her wrists are obvious, but under her clothes, I guess, or not even under, but through. Under the clothes were all these stab wounds. So she had actually been brutally attacked. She had been stabbed more than 50 times. And then whoever did this just stuck the knife in her neck and left. I mean, it's disturbing. Like, it's. Talk about grim. Like, it's just really disturbing. So. Oh, God, it's horrible. A lot of the wounds were inflicted postmortem, which was also interesting. Like a strange kind of. Yes. Yeah. Very personal, for sure. And so you can see why they're immediately thinking Russ, you know, like, it does make sense. And like, of course, you look at the husband. Always look at the husband. Okay. So basically, they determined, yeah, she had been brutally attacked. Her murderer had continued to attack her after she stopped breathing. That's how much utter rage was behind this attack. And so detectives began questioning people who knew the couple. Couple. And at first, everyone's saying Russ and Betsy were deeply in love. Russ told the detectives they had gone through a rough patch in their marriage and had been briefly separated. And I will get into that a little bit later. But he said they'd worked through it. That was that whole thing with, you know, going to the new church together, and their relationship was strong and loving, and he was Just. That's all he had to say. He didn't have anything more to say than, I didn't do it, and, yeah, I love my wife. But detectives were not so sure. So they decided to speak to the last person to have seen Betsy alive, and that happened to be a woman named Pam.

[A]

P A. M. Yep.

[B]

P. A, M. P. A, M. P. A. Whatever.

[A]

You're good. It's three letters.

[B]

Thank you. They asked Pam if she was close to Betsy, and interestingly, Pam. Pam's response was, she has more than one best friend. Okay, that's a weird thing to say. And it was true that Betsy was, like, a well loved person. She had multiple friends and a lot of family, but she and Pam had been co workers for roughly a decade and had spent a lot. Almost every day together. Right. Like, since she got sick. And so it's weird that she wouldn't have just said, yeah, we're very close. Like, this is heartbreaking for me, you know, or anything. But she said, nope. She has other friends, too. And they're like, okay. And so they're talking to her, and she says, almost. Although most people think Betsy and Russ are happy, I know the real truth because Betsy tells me all about it, and they actually fight all the time. And she's actually really scared of her husband. And of course, you know, speaking of confirmation bias, now they're thinking, ding, ding, ding, perfect domestic violence. Like, this is an abusive marriage, and this guy clearly just had a vendetta, had some. Some crime of passion, and. And that's what happened. So she told. They said, you know, speak on that, please. And she said, well, Russ often insults Betsy. He brags to her about how much money he would get from her life insurance if she died. What? Yeah, if Ham said Russ was extremely disrespectful to her. He would smoke in the house even though she was sick, like, with cancer. And they're just, like, horrified. No, he didn't. He didn't. He literally didn't.

[A]

Don't make me defend a man, Pam, please.

[B]

I know. It's. That's. It's like, infuriating. It's like, seriously, I don't want to be here.

[A]

Please don't do this today.

[B]

God damn it. It's so infuriating. So Pam told the detectives that Betsy was so terrified of Russ that she was secretly planning to divorce him. And so now they're building this motive. Right? She said Betsy once told her that she woke up to Russ pressing a pillow against her face and saying, this is what it feels like, to die.

[A]

What evil?

[B]

Like, but like, what a loon to make that up and be like, oh. And the way she presented it was also so bonkers. She said, oh, did you find the email? She was going to write me about the time. And they said, what do you mean the email? And she said she was telling me something about how she was busy writing me draft of an email and she never sent it. Spoiler alert. They later find it on a document on the computer. Like a Word document that idiot Pam had written and uploaded.

[A]

So, okay, yeah, so this alone, I don't really know what I'm. What point I'm trying to make here. I just need to kind of word blurt it is that, that I feel like she has to know by saying all this stuff, eventually it's going to come out that she's saying this and people who know it's not true are now going to know she's the prime suspect. Like, she's only taking.

[B]

She's walking a very thin line, right? Because it's like she's on this. She's now like giving the police what they want. But then you're right, like the second anybody else in the circle hears, they're.

[A]

Going to be like, well, you're obviously the person who, who did this. Yeah. Like, it feels.

[B]

I'm so glad you said that because that is basically this whole story is everybody being like, the thing about Pam, like, they're literally trying to figure out what the. Is going on with Pam.

[A]

The thing about Pam is that she has told you everything that you need to arrest her. Go do it. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Like, it's, it's.

[A]

That's so insane because you would again, I mean, she's already proven herself to be sloppy at this if she's just like literally leaving the weapon at the crime scene. But to like, then just start saying things that are obviously not going to be backed by anybody. Like, should you keep a low profile, you're just, you're really making things so much worse.

[B]

So quick, here's the, here's the wildest part. Well, first of all, great point. And I think this is one of those scenarios where it's a person who cannot keep a low profile because they're so self involved. And, you know, like, I think she just literally couldn't keep herself out of the spotlight. Do you know what I mean? Like, she wanted to be questioned, she wanted to be on the stand. Like, she just loved the spotlight in that way. Like, well, yeah. Raging narcissist. And I mean, it becomes Very, very, very apparent.

[A]

Like, it's like, if this weren't such a sick, sad story, it would be laughable at how obvious this is.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Yes, exactly. It's just absurd. Like, she had her neighbor basically spy in the. Because she wasn't allowed to sit in the trial because she was a witness and she had a neighbor go sit in there and text her the whole time, like, what was going. I mean, she's just so, like, self obsessed. Self obsessed.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And just a sick, sick person. So she's like, yeah, I know the real truth. You know, it's actually that they're in this terrible marriage, and she's so scared of her husband. He's so violent and. Oh, sorry, were you gonna say something?

[A]

Yeah, but I keep interrupting you, so I'm just trying to.

[B]

Well, I couldn't tell if you were hitting a fly, like, swatting a fly or raising your hand.

[A]

I'm just saluting you.

[B]

Oh, that's allowed.

[A]

No. Does she. Does she care that she's like, is it. Is part of the thing that, like, she wants people to know she did it and see how long she can get away with it? Like, is there a point to her being. She's just sloppy.

[B]

Well, everyone's just eating this up, frankly.

[A]

Okay, got it. Okay. I'm just gonna. You keep going. Sorry.

[B]

No, I mean, it's a. It's. It's. It's a great question because it's like, what is happening? Like, how is this happening?

[A]

But she's one of the people that like. Like, I understand why, like, coroners would remove their brain to study it, you know, like. Like, what. What are we doing here? What's.

[B]

It's like, what happened? What. What went wrong here?

[A]

Yeah, it's moments like this where I understand why they, like, do things like this for science after the fact with people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, I would also like to know what's too.

[B]

Or even the. Even the Ed Kemper, like, you know, interviewing in prison. Even though it's like, kind of ethically and kind of gross and all that. But it's like. But you learn so much about.

[A]

There's a morbid fascination.

[B]

Brain works. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, if you watch Mind Hunter, you'll know what I mean. But. Okay, so they are hearing all this from Pam and. And Russ denies it completely. He said even when he and Betsy had struggled in their marriage, neither of them had ever been violent with one another. That was never an issue. He said Betsy had no reason to be afraid of him. She Never had been. He. He honestly didn't know where this was coming from.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Like, I don't think they definitely didn't say, like, oh, Pam told us. You know, they're saying, like. And I think that's part of it, too, is like, the police are trying to build their case, so they're not going around telling everybody, like, oh, Pam's in here telling this, in that.

[A]

Like, we're just hearing horrible husband.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And outside of the police station, she can be like, I don't know. I just, you know, I just told him the truth and we'll see what happen, you know, and she can kind of play that subtle game, you know, until she's called to the witness stand, so to speak, later on. So he says Betsy has no reason to be afraid of him. He eventually agrees to a polygraph test, but he's been, I think, interrogated with. For, like, I think it was 16 hours or just like an. A really intense long of time, a period of time after having just discovered what we now know was, like, the shock of his life.

[A]

I mean, in that moment, like, there's. I would honestly probably end up in jail because I would. They would. It would break me. Like, I was.

[B]

I'm Already know how you could even answer questions at that stage.

[A]

Yeah, you're going to say something that sounds suspicious when you're just. When your brain's fried.

[B]

And he didn't ask for a lawyer because he literally didn't think he needed one. And, like, that became a problem because then his attorney was like, you've been talking all, like, for two days and you haven't asked for an attorney. He's like, I don't need one, you know, because, like, I didn't do anything.

[A]

You would think the crying and hysterics and having a bunch of people at the Dungeons and Dragons game to vouch that you were there, like, you're like, golden. I don't need to say anything. Like, I'm already.

[B]

I have an alibi and I'm clearly freaked out. But guess what? They turn all that against him, so don't worry.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

It's, like, really bananas how everything gets twisted.

[A]

Did.

[B]

So he failed the polygraph test. At least that is what they told him, that he failed the polygraph test. And they told him 100%. Now, later, one of the attorneys is like, you can't fail a polygraph. 100. That's not even a thing. So they don't know, like, how real that was. If that was just kind of Bogus because a polygraph isn't admissible as evidence in court anyway. But. So they did arrest him. Him. And with no concrete evidence that he killed Betsy, he had to be released eventually. But they were like, we've got our guy. We know it's him. Like, listen to Pam. She told us all about their horrible marriage, and she's her best friend.

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

She might have some charm. She must have something, because these people always do, even if you don't see it as an outsider. There must be something in the room where you're like, oh, I believe you.

[A]

I'm telling you, like, I've. That's like. Is that not like the triple crown of, like, narcissism is, like, having the X factor charm? The weird confidence that you could get away with something like this regardless of how sloppy you are. And the love bombing.

[B]

Like, that's like, yeah, the loveline and the. And the frankly not caring about what anybody else just, like, wanting to be in the middle of it, despite. Did they not even talk how it looks?

[A]

Did they not talk to, like, his pastor or church group or whatever? Because, like, that guy would have been able to say, like, oh, no. They, like, work through their problems. Like, they're good. Like, nothing. Nothing.

[B]

The police were already just. They've already decided, right? So they're just. They just know that he killed her. So they're like, well, great, now we have somebody who backs it up. We have him fake crying in the. On the 911 call. Like, what else do we need? We're good. Like, this is literally what they're thinking. They really think he did it. So they're saying, okay, well, easy peasy.

[A]

I'm sorry, but I. And maybe I'm just too gullible, but, like, I imagine I was. I didn't even hear the phone call. I. I know nothing, but I know. Know what? I would probably sound like a screen.

[B]

A wailing screen, right?

[A]

If you. If I saw Allison look like that, like, there's no faking that cry. There's no faking that wailing. And if.

[B]

But that's what everyone says, right? And then you hear, like, the actual fake ones, and they're screaming, and you're like, oh, well, maybe you can fake it. Like, you can just. You know what I mean?

[A]

I must be too gullible. I just imagine, like, that's such an. It's like a primitive, guttural experience. Experience. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I must. Yeah.

[A]

Someone's faked it well enough at some point. So I. I am obviously wrong, but in my mind, I'm like, how does someone even fake something like that?

[B]

They thought he was being over the top. They said he was just being melodramatic. Fake crying.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That was just their. Yeah, they just went with it. So he was released because they couldn't hold him on anything. But soon afterward, detectives discovered new evidence in the free association home. So they had sprayed throughout the house with luminol, which is a sensitive reagent that makes blood visible even after it's been cleaned up. And it was then that they discovered blood in a drawer. And this drawer is where the Farias kept towels. Now, they said there wasn't blood anywhere else, which meant that the killer didn't open multiple drawers. Right. Which, I mean, is an interesting point. So, like, the killer presumably knew where the towels were, went and grabbed a drawer, open the drawer, grabbed a towel to clean, clean up. They had known exactly where they were. So the detectives now are believing that Russ opened the door to get towels and clean up after killing Betsy. He was arrested again based on that blood, that luminol evidence. And on January 4, 2012, Russ was indicted for first degree murder of his wife, Betsy Faria. And to answer your other question, Betsy's family is completely shocked. Like, they do not. They did not see this coming. Detectives actually had to work to convince Betsy's mom and daughters that Russ was capable of something like this. I mean, these are his daughters. Right? Like, it's. They're having to wrap their minds around this.

[A]

I totally forgot. Even of kids. I totally forgot.

[B]

Yes. The two girls are. Are trying to now understand that their dad is maybe a murderer. Allegedly. Yeah, exactly. So Russ's cousin helped Russ connect with an attorney, Joel Schwartz, who believed Russ had a strong defense. And he. He also felt like. You said that Russ had an ironclad alibi. He was with his friends playing Dungeons and Dragons, and apparently by the time he called 911 on December 27 and the paramedics came out, Betsy's body was already cold and stiff, which means she would have died hours. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Were there. Did anyone take, like, any. What? I don't remember what years of year this was. Did someone take pictures of him being there?

[B]

So it was. Yeah, it was end of 2011.

[A]

I guess people weren't taking a lot of pictures back then.

[B]

Then in 2011, I feel like you would be taking pictures.

[A]

Maybe. I. That was during. That was. I was still. I still had a flip phone, so I wasn't taking web Pictures, so.

[B]

Well, you also weren't a police detective.

[A]

Well, no, I meant. I meant more like, could they go to the Dungeons and Dragons group and be like, did anyone take pictures of that night to prove he's there?

[B]

I thought you were talking about the crime scene. Like, I was like, I think they took photos of the crime scene. Okay, okay, sorry. I meant, like, we'll get to that. Get to that. Okay. Yes, there is concrete evidence. Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Ironclad.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So to speak. So first responders believed she'd been dead for several hours by the time Russ claimed to have discovered her. And during that window, Russ was at game night with his friends. Now, on the way to his friend's house, he stopped for gas, cigarettes, and dog food. He was on surveillance footage. He had receipts, literal receipts and figurative receipts, receipts from these purchases. All of Russ's friends confirmed that he was with them the entire evening and hadn't left. They all corroborated the same story, that Russ left around 9 o' clock, and then on his way home, he stopped for food at Arby's, and he almost didn't.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But he did. And he got a receipt, and it was time stamped.

[A]

Good.

[B]

And then he got home, I think, 20 minutes later or so. So it seemed impossible that he could have murdered her. Her, like the window was pretty much impossible. The defense team also questioned this supposed smoking gun of the blood in the towel drawer because they said they had photographs of this luminal evidence. And whenever the defense tried to ask for this evidence to see it themselves, the investigators would say, oh, the camera malfunctioned. But we saw the blood and the luminol.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But the camera malfunctioned. So you don't get to see. Like, you don't have proof of it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yes. Yes. How can you use that in a court?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

And then they use it in court and they say, oh, there's blood all over it. I swear I saw it.

[A]

I swear I was in a Versailles time slip. I don't know what else to tell you.

[B]

Oh, my God. I was. It's just my. Oh, sorry. That was my fictional chapter that I made up about the blood.

[A]

Lead on. It gets better and more real.

[B]

It gets. But it's so good, fan fiction wise. Yeah. So the only way that the. The evidence of this blood in the drawer came to the courtroom was as a sworn testimony by detectives. And they swore.

[A]

Okay. I don't believe that. I'm sorry.

[B]

They lied. Like, it's just bananas.

[A]

They just really was. It really was out.

[B]

Lied.

[A]

You know what I'm thinking? You know what I'm thinking?

[B]

The trial began November 2013. The prosecution described the blood at the scene on the light switch and Russ's slippers said, how else could this be anyone but the husband? Deputy Mike Merkel testified that the camera used to record the blood evidence malfunctioned, and the photos were unfortunately, quote, absolutely nothing but that he had seen them. And he swore there was blood in the. The thing lit up. The luminol lit up, and there was blood in the drawer. Pam Hupp took the stand. Don't you know she loved that.

[A]

Did she hold the microphone like you are?

[B]

Oh, my God. She. Girl. She probably brought her own. Yeah, exactly. Is this thing on? She probably brought her own. She took this stand. She told her story about Russ and Betsy's, like, horrible marriage, that Betsy was afraid of Russ, and according to her, Betsy wanted to separate from him and then.

[A]

And be with her. I'm sorry, is she gay?

[B]

Interesting. That also comes up later.

[A]

Not to say like a lesbian. Lesbian folio, duh. But.

[B]

Oh, my God. I was about to say. Wait a minute. I'm seeing some patterns here, man.

[A]

This is, like, kind of the gayest crime I've ever heard of.

[B]

I'm like, why does this not remind you of the other one where you said, hang on, is there a gay thing here? When it was the God, not Nexium. I'm sorry, the. The five passenger or eight passengers. Oh, mom. And then, like, the other lady comes in, is like, we just sleep in a bed together. It's no big deal.

[A]

Like, just kiss.

[B]

What? She's like. And then I like, beat up teenagers who say they're gay because it's so up that they're gay. And it's like, girl, you need to see.

[A]

The call is coming from inside the house.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, the call. Thank you. The call is coming from inside the house.

[A]

So she's. I mean, Pam's gay. That's where I am currently. She's a narcissist and she's big fat gay. That's where.

[B]

I have no idea. Idea. I have no idea.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Well, that's my. That's my running theory.

[B]

She claims to not be gay.

[A]

Yeah, I did, too, but.

[B]

But we'll get to it. Okay, so Pam Hupp, she takes a stand. She tells her story about this, like, violent marriage, yada, yada. And she says, oh, well, Betsy, my bff, was so afraid that when she died, Russ would waste all her life insurance money. That. And give nothing to her daughter. Daughters. That she asked Betsy to be the sole beneficiary of her life insurance policy. And Betsy said. And Pam said, I would be honored, and I promise I will make a trust in Mariah and Leah's names, and they will inherit the money once you have passed.

[A]

This is psychotic.

[B]

And that happened days before Betsy was mysteriously murdered. Isn't that on the floor?

[A]

Isn't that something to consider? Consider.

[B]

So now they're saying this is a motive for Russ, that Russ found out she had, you know, this abusive man, found out she had given all her money away to. To another, like, had. Had left the money to the kids and to this other woman, and that he snapped and killed her in a fit of rage. So that's what they're presenting. And people are like, yeah, that. I guess that makes sense. The prosecution's arguing that, meanwhile, Russ's friends were lying, like, all the DND people, and that one of them went to Arby and, like, ordered food to give him an alibi. And everyone's like, wait, so now you're. The defense attorney was like, now you're implicating all these.

[A]

Right.

[B]

People in the courtroom, these civilians that have nothing to do with this, that are, like, not on trial. What, Like. But it was just so batshit. Fun fact also, which becomes clear in the. In the series, is that the DA who was kind of the lead of this whole thing was also BFFs with the judge on the case.

[A]

Oh, well, that's fun.

[B]

Yeah. And it's a small town, Troy, Missouri. It's like everyone knows everyone, and she and the judge are close. Their friends are on the same, like, softball team or something. She and this judge, like, went to high school together. And so it's like, you kind of see this icky. This should have been taken. I will just let it slide. Yeah.

[A]

In a different county or something. Something that's.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, they're almost like, he didn't stand a chance here. It just. Everything fell into alignment in the worst way. So now they're saying, oh, well, that's a motive for Russ not thinking, like, oh, that's a motive for Pam. Right. Like, it's just people just had blinders on, you know, they just didn't see it. So they proposed that, like, Russ left early, killed his wife, and then his friend, like, went and got Arby's. But they. They basically said his alibi is too do good. They're like, who goes to the store on the way to their friend's house? And then Stops for food and then keeps all the receipts. And it's like, what the. A normal person? Why are you being so weird about this? Like, after game night, you smoked some weed and now you want Arby's. It's literally the least shocking thing I've ever heard. And they're acting like, oh, he, like, made all this up. It just is like, how was this so convincing to a jury? I don't know. They did a number on him.

[A]

If someone wants to not believe them, I guess they. They. They'll find a way. I don't know.

[B]

They really did. Because on November 21, four hours of deliberation, the jury returned with a guilty verdict.

[A]

No. Oh.

[B]

And the judge sentenced him to life in prison without parole.

[A]

Christine, you better fucking reverse this story. Tell me. And you better fix it.

[B]

And Pam is a billionaire now. On. Okay, so they. They returned a guilty verdict, which was shocking because even the defense team was like, how did that happen? Like, all. All we needed was reasonable doubt. And they were like, we have reasonable doubt. Like, we have an alibi. And they didn't give any real proof. They didn't show photos. Like, there's no real evidence that he did this. No fingerprints, nothing. Like, no. You know, there's no blood on there, by the way. There was no blood on him. Oh, guess what? The DA claimed that the reason there was no blood on him. Maybe it's in these notes, but she claimed that he did it naked.

[A]

I can't even tolerate this.

[B]

At least that's what happened in the fictionalized one. I can't recall if that was real from the podcast series, but I think they tried to stick pretty close to what happened in those. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure, but basically, they. He didn't have a drop of blood on him, so that was another thing they were up against.

[A]

But. But your alibi is too good. You just don't have blood on you. Who just doesn't have blood on them? Them.

[B]

It's really bonkers. It's like that really. It's scary that things can go so wrong, you know? I mean, we know this already, but it's, like, scary to see it so plainly in front of us.

[A]

And so sidebar. I think you already said this. I think I might be confusing relationship dynamics, but since this is such a small town and people know him, shouldn't people, like, be a little more hesitant to. If they knew him so well or knew him. It's a small town. Everyone knows, right? Us. Shouldn't someone be like, this guy wouldn't do it. Like, I kind of don't believe.

[B]

I mean, I think they are, they're like, I can't believe he would never do that. But it's like if the police are telling you, trust me, trust me, we have evidence. It's like. And they're not, I mean, you're not going to know the evidence, so you just assume they have evidence. And it's like, clearly, okay, well, Christine.

[A]

Now they don't just know if for some reason something ever happens where like you're the prime suspect in a murder and the cops are like, believe me, I promise you, I'm not gonna thank you.

[B]

I didn't do it. At least on purpose.

[A]

I promise I'll write you letters from jail and I'll be like, girl, I know it wasn't you.

[B]

Thanks. Yeah, thanks.

[A]

I'll do what I can from out here, but good luck. I don't know, I've, it's just.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

So bonkers.

[B]

It's mind blowing because it's like, obviously this can just happen. Like your world turns upside down, you know, I've told you, it's my biggest.

[A]

Fear that I'm just like wrongly convicted of something. I don't.

[B]

And then on top of that, your wife has been killed.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Now your family thinks you did it. Like your daughters are horrified, you know, And I mean, it's just all very.

[A]

And I, I must have talked about this before. I'm so sorry for not letting you just like craze me.

[B]

No go.

[A]

No, I, I, I can't even imagine the tertiary trauma that comes from like not being able to even begin grieving your wife. Oh yeah, or like beginning to grieve or process you seeing your wife dead in such a graphic way.

[B]

Like, there's been no begin to do.

[A]

That because you're in self preservation mode and you're already, already wounded or I guess like stunted in some way because you're not on your top game because your wife literally died. Yeah, like there's just, there's so many layers of.

[B]

And suddenly you're having to defend yourself, but you don't even like realize how you got here.

[A]

And there's, there's no way that you're able to put all your spoons at, into one thing. Like everything requires top priority and none.

[B]

Of it's being addressed and you're still in shock, presumably. And then like the, the other notion that like now your daughters aren't speaking to you because everyone saying, hey, your dad did this. And even if you don't believe me? Like, you can't speak to him. He's in jail. You know, he's on trial. Like, it's like all of a sudden, you lose your. Your family. And on top of everything else.

[A]

And not to discount anyone else's situations, but, like, the way that it spread so quickly into, like, no one's even considering what these kids are going through. Like, they don't even get to grieve their mom because they have to, like, be shunned in town that their dad's a murderer now. They have to come to terms with that before grieving their. Their mom.

[B]

Like, it's horrible.

[A]

Imagine just trying to plan a funeral for your mom and all this is going on. And, like, I mean, like.

[B]

And they're teenage girls. Like, they're young.

[A]

They're so, like, imagine what they had to go through mentally through all this. I mean, just.

[B]

And so that's why I. I know that, like, the fictionalized version has definitely some detractors for good reason, but I do think they do a good job of, like, showing the kids. And, like. But on the other hand, like, the kids, the family didn't get any thing out of the movie. A dollar, Not a cent. And it's like, like, okay, well, that feels slimy and gross. So, you know, it's. It's. I. I haven't quite.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Put my finger on.

[A]

I.

[B]

Just Where I stand.

[A]

But the. The lasagna layers of trauma is just like. They're all so melted into each other. I just can't even imagine.

[B]

I can't even talk about Butterfly Effect. It's like every. And then, you know, I feel like the other problem with a show like that, which, you know, it almost, like, romanticizes the whole thing. Like, it ties it up in a bow. And then at the end, you're like, oh, good, everything's fine now and then. And it's like, no, actually, it's. The impact of this. Yeah. Is going to be shocking.

[A]

I promise to stop speaking now.

[B]

No, no, please don't. It's glad. I'm glad you're asking questions because I feel like.

[A]

Just have a lot to say.

[B]

It deserves some clarity sometimes. And it's such a doozy of a story. I mean, Dateline did, like, an entire podcast just about this story. It's. It's riveting, really. So if you do want to listen to it, I would listen to that. And it, of course, has Keith Morrison being, like, the thing about Pam.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

You know, doing that, like, voice isn't.

[A]

That Matthew Perry's stepdad, Keith Morrison, is it? I think so. Keith Morrison.

[B]

Why does that feel true?

[A]

Because I'm not lying. Oh, yeah. Matthew Perry is the step son of Keith Morrison. Yeah.

[B]

That's wild. Okay.

[A]

I was like, how do I know that name? And I knew Dateline, but I was like, I feel like I've heard about his name more recently. And it was because when Matthew Perry died.

[B]

So RIP. Yeah, Sad. So just days before she was killed, Betsy had actually made Pam the new sole beneficiary of her life insurance policy. So that did happen.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Now Pam set up a conditional trust in Mariah and Leah's name so they would inherit the money. Money. Once Betsy died. Of course, Pam and Betsy didn't realize it would be so soon. Allegedly. And this now seemed like a motive for Russ that he found out and he killed her in a rage. So the prosecution again, said, like, oh, they must. His friends must have, like, covered for him, and they went to Arby's and, like, he left early and didn't. Naked or whatever. They. They found him guilty and it was over. So the trial was over. Russ went to prison for the murder of his wife, while the family and friends tried to grapple with losing both parents, both people in the couple, in one fell swoop. But while Russ was in prison, things in the Faria family only got more complicated because Mariah and Leah were now having more and more conflict with one Pam Hupp.

[A]

She's still bothering this family. Go away. Day.

[B]

She literally, remember, made a trust for the kids.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The day the trial ended, she canceled it.

[A]

Oh, my God. Wow. I don't know why that shocks me so much.

[B]

Mariah and Leah therefore received not a single dollar of their mother's life insurance money to this day.

[A]

Evil villain. That's crazy.

[B]

$100,000. And this was the reason that allegedly Pam gave was because she didn't trust her husband to. To give it to the daughters. Right Now Pam's like, but I'm trustworthy. So I promised I would give it to her daughters. And then all of a sudden, where's the money? Pam's like, oh, yeah, I'll work on it, you know, so did she really.

[A]

Just kill this woman for a hundred thousand dollars and that's it?

[B]

Yeah, I guess. And also probably was just like, over the love bombing phase, you know?

[A]

That's sick. I mean, there was no good reason, but I'm like. I'm like, every time it's a monetary value, I'm like, that's what someone Equates a life to then, huh? Interesting.

[B]

I know. And I think it's also worth noting Pam had quite a bit of debt, so there was that pressure as well. She and her husband were in debt, behind on house payments, I think. However, she did use the money for a facelift. So it's like, you know, certain point. I know. It's just ridiculous. So Pam's stories about Betsy's fears of her husband also became uncertain. Kind of like what you said. People were like, that just doesn't sound right. Like, it doesn't feel like Betsy was scared of him. Like, it just feels so weird that this became the running theory. Now, Pam had claimed that Betsy feared Russ would be selfish with the life insurance money, and therefore she needed to protect it. And now she's taking it all for herself. And so another of. Basically another of Betsy's closest friends, Rita, her other best friend, she told a different story. Rita said, hey, actually, Betsy came to me first to ask if I would take over the life insurance policy. And it's not because she didn't trust Russ to do something irresponsible, sort of that. But in a different way. She basically feared Russ would be so traumatized and in. In grief, devastated after her death that he would just, like, spend money on the kids to, like, try to make them feel better. Like, that was where. What a.

[A]

What a nicest way to not trust your husband. I mean, that's like, exactly. That's an understandable.

[B]

I need.

[A]

I need to make sure that the family's taken care of.

[B]

He's taken care of. Right. Like, it's like, I want to make sure he doesn't accidentally, like, misuse the funds because he's so shocked or, like, distraught, you know, and that's, like, heartbreaking to me. And. And the fact that Pam was like, oh, don't worry. I. You can trust me with that. And Rita said that Betsy had asked her first, and she said, I don't really feel comfortable with that. Like, I don't feel comfortable getting kind of involved in your family's finances. And so she said no. And.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Rita told Betsy, I'm uncomfortable with the arrangement. Like, maybe you should look into setting up a trust for the money to ensure that it can be accessed and spent responsibly. And in the end, Betsy basically made an arrangement with her other best friend, Pam, who said, I'll start a trust for them. Just put me on there. Don't worry.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But then Pam canceled the trust and kept the money for herself. No one, of course, In Betsy's family knew Pam had been named beneficiary until Betsy died. And that was four days, by the way, after Pam became. Became beneficiary. Four days. So Rita, the other friend, was like, something is so off about this. Like, she asked me about life insurance. Then, like, goes to her other friend, and then, like, gets murdered mysteriously. And then this other friend keeps some money. Like, it's just not looking good. And she knows Betsy's very trusting and sometimes prone to being manipulated by people with not so good intentions. Meanwhile, Betsy's daughters, Mariah and Leah, sue Pam in civil court for access to their mother's life insurance fund funds. And that's when Pam basically says, sorry, I'm the sole beneficiary. And your mom said, I can do whatever I want with this money. And she didn't really care if it went to you.

[A]

That's so evil.

[B]

And, yep, just totally scrapped the story about this trust and everything. And unfortunately, the presiding judge had to agree that the legal terms said she was the sole beneficiary. So even though she promised verbally to make a trust, she had full access to the money and the kids would get not a dollar. So that was going on. And even though that closed the door on Mariah and Leah getting any sort of financial compensation to help moving forward, Russ's defense team saw that this had also opened a door for them. Pam had originally testified that Betsy made her the beneficiary to protect the money from Russ and make sure it went to her daughters. And they found it suspicious that she was now claiming, oh, Betsy said, I could do whatever I want with the money. So they also found it suspicious that Pam had apparently only created the trust for Mariah and Leah right before the trial. So basically, it looked like to appease the prosecution, who said, like, hey, it'll look a lot better if you make a trust now. And then after the trial, she just immediately canceled the trust, Right? So they're like, this is sketchy as hell. So the defense filed for a new trial, and this request was actually granted in June of 20, 2015, and Russ was released awaiting trial. This time, there was no jury. It was a bench trial, meaning a single judge would hear the case and make a decision without a jury. Okay. And the defense came in swinging. They attacked all of the state's evidence against Russ. There was the blood on the bottom of the slippers, right, that were so damning at the time, discovered in the closet. But there was not a single bloody footprint print anywhere in the home. And it's like if the bottom of his slippers are coated in blood. So he just walked around, he forgot that he was wearing bloody slippers, put them in the closet, cleaned up the bloody. Like, there was not a single bloody footprint or like, remnants of one.

[A]

I mean, also, like, it feels again, sloppy, but intentionally like. Like half thought through to frame him because they're like, okay, well, if I put the blood on his slippers. Slippers, then it'll look like he did it. But also if there's no more blood outside of the closet where I put the shoes, then he didn't.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What, did he bathe his feet next to his dirty slippers in the closet and then not.

[B]

And then he was. By the way, he was also naked this whole time.

[A]

Yeah, he was naked, but he washed.

[B]

Off his clothes, but not his. Like, it just doesn't.

[A]

Which, like, if you're. If you're naked wearing slippers, guess what? Your ankles are going to get blood on them. Babe, what are you about talking. You talking about.

[B]

Good point.

[A]

So there. So where's the blood? Sorry.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

What am I wrong? You put slippers on a naked body. You got exposed ankles.

[B]

What are. Your ankle. What do you mean, the ankles?

[A]

Like, okay, you wear. If. If she. If the whole story is that he's naked but in slippers. Right, Right. Okay, so. But the slippers get blood on them. There's gonna be droplets on, like your shin or your ankles.

[B]

Well, they're saying the reason he was naked is because then he jumped in the shower and washed all the blood off.

[A]

I see. Okay. Sorry.

[B]

Because they're saying, well, bloody clothes. And then she goes, well, that's because he was naked. And everyone's like, what? Like, it was basically because his clothes, when they came to the seat. Crime scene. Crime scene, they. He had no blood on him.

[A]

And that's what you mean about the footprints to the shower? There should be bloody footprints to the shower.

[B]

I mean, if you were wearing bloody. If you were wearing slippers that were covered in blood on the bottom, it's like, wouldn't there be bloody footprints or, like a trail or a drop, a trail, anything?

[A]

You're totally right.

[B]

And it's just weird that there wouldn't be. But on top of that, the shoes looked almost like they had been. This is gross. But dipped in blood, like they said, it almost looked like someone had just taken them and, like, splash them in a puddle and then, like, set them in the closet. It's, like, so dark. Yeah. So that was the first thing they attacked the Defense argued that a real killer had just dipped the slippers in. In Betsy's blood and then hidden them to, like, half assed frame Russ. And. And they also doubled down on his alibi because there's no evidence that any of his friends were lying or like, going to Arby's on his behalf.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And this time, which, unlike the first time, the first time they were not allowed to bring anything about Pam because the. The jury or the DA and the judge were like, well, that. This isn't about Pam. Like, this trial isn't about Pam. It's about Russ. So we're not bringing other people. And then they have the audacity to go, oh, but I bet his friends just covered for him and are now complicit in this murder. It's like, if I can't talk about Pam, then you can't talk about the DND D folks like it. It. It's just nonsense. So they double down on his alibi. There's no evidence that anyone was lying on his behalf. And they were also permitted to finally present Pam as an alternate killer.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

Final.

[A]

Finally, Finally.

[B]

Because Pam is the last person to see Betsy alive. She's also the last person to be seen with Betsy. And here's basically the real story, or at least as close of an approximation as I can get for you.

[A]

Great.

[B]

From. From what we know about the truth. So the real story is on the day Betsy was killed, she had arranged a ride home from her mother's house with one of her mother's friends. According to her daughter Mariah, who was with them that day, Pam reached out and insisted on driving Betsy home. And Betsy said, oh, no, it's fine. I want to spend time with my family and my daughters and, like, hang out here. But Pam showed up anyway.

[A]

I guarantee you I wasn't there. Obviously. I like to think she was like, oh, me and my daughters were gonna have a girls night since our. The husband's out of town. She was like, oh, I'm a girl. Part of the girls night it is. I feel like that's what.

[B]

Well, she showed up, but she wasn't gonna be part. She showed up. She didn't take off her coat. She basically sat there like this and stared at them until Betsy finally was like, okay, I guess I'll go with you. Ew. She's like, toxic as hell.

[A]

This is, like, so insane.

[B]

Okay, so she shows up uninvited because they literally said, we're gonna spend family night together. All the girls, like, we're just gonna Spend family night together and then. And play games. And then. Then Pam shows up anyway, uninvited, and she pressures Betsy. She basically coerces her into getting in the car, even though she already had a ride home. Like, there's no reason. And she's like, well, I drove all this way. Like, why would. I mean, classic nice that you keep, like, flipping it on the other person. And so Betsy ultimately is like, okay, fine, I am pretty tired. Why don't you just drive me home? So Pam, again, like you said, was the only person who described any abuse in the marriage. And nobody else could. Could understand this, like, had heard of this pillow smothering story or any other abuse. And again, she had also set up this revocable trust and then, like, took it back. And so that's also a bad look. And they're saying, hey, that's the motive for. Not for Russ, but for. For Pam. That's the motive for Pam to kill for the life insurance money. Like, it's so obvious, people, to me and to you. It is hindsight, I guess, but the prosecution made the choice to not call Pam to the stand, and she was pissed. They were like, she doesn't have. We don't trust her. She's not. We don't trust her. She was our star witness in the first trial. She was, like, feeding them everything they wanted to hear. And now they're not even bringing her into the courtroom, and she's fudgeing pissed. So I did a bit of digging. There was something, an aspect to this that was not covered in the Dateline stuff. And I feel like it's worth mentioning there. They appealed the trial, and they were doing this. This new trial in front of a judge, and the defense came in swinging with all this stuff. But apparently the prosecution claimed they had a bombshell witness on their hands that they were going to bring forward that was going to, like, rock everyone's world.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

And. And I found more details about this on a blog called the Trouble with Justice. And this is a quote from that site. The prosecution bombshell witness who is supposed to be the pregnant mistress of Russ Faria kind of exploded in their faces. Also, Carissa Barton testified that she was never pregnant with Russ's child. She had lied to him after writing him a letter in prison. They had a brief affair one year before Betsy's murder that lasted a month. Barton had decided to end the affair because Russ seemed so happy with his wife. The lie about being pregnant was a ploy to hurt him. So basically they were like, we have this his pregnant mistress. And then the woman goes on the stand and goes, no, I lied about being pregnant. I was just really hurt about, like, the murder accusations. And we broke up over a year ago. So, like, this wasn't about me. You know, basically, like, they thought, like, oh, we're gonna rock everyone's noggins. And it didn't happen. So after two hours of deliberation, the judge determined that the case asked way too many questions that the prosecution could not answer. Answer. Russ was declared innocent, and he was fully exonerated. And that is, like, not a common occurrence.

[A]

That's shocking. That's shocking.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Rita and other friends were thrilled, but they were also terrified because now Betsy's real killer is still free. And, you know, this was a case. This was a trial against Russ, once again, not against Pam. So even if it was Pam, she's out there running around. Around. Roughly a year later, she's. She's sure running around.

[A]

M. That's crazy.

[B]

I have a whole page left. So she's not done yet.

[A]

Thank God. I was like, you have. You have to tell me that.

[B]

No, don't worry.

[A]

It doesn't end. Don't let it end this way. Not like this.

[B]

She acts not like this. She acts out a little more. So roughly A year later, August 16, 2016, Pam Hupp calls 911 Shouting for help.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She says there's a man in her house who had broken in, and he wouldn't leave.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The 911 operator could hear a male voice shouting at Pam, and she shouted back, no, I'm not getting in the car with you. No, get away. Then the operator heard multiple gunshots. Police responded to the call in minutes, rushing to Pam's house, where they found a man dead in her home. The hallway.

[A]

I'm sorry. Immediately, I feel like this man wasn't doing anything wrong.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And I feel like she just shouted out. And he was probably far enough from the phone that nobody heard him going, what the are you talking about? And then she just shot him. But she just wanted. Okay, so she just set this all up.

[B]

Ding, ding, ding.

[A]

He was being held at gunpoint while she said, get away. Get away.

[B]

100 super great.

[A]

Okay, cool.

[B]

I can't wait for you to find out how she convinced him to even go in to her house.

[A]

Chocolate. I don't know at this point, like.

[B]

Even stupider, it's like, okay, yeah. She's just a terrible person.

[A]

I. I don't know. I'm. I hate her. I just hate her.

[B]

She's Bad. She's a bad egg. So they get there, and she's like, oh, my God, he broke into my house. And he wouldn't leave. And she's had this shocking story that she arrived home minutes ago and a car pulled into her driveway. Behind her. A man leapt out of the vehicle. Vehicle held her at knife point. He told Pam she needed to take him to the bank to get Russ's money.

[A]

Why? First of all, why is he no Russ? Second of all, he's got a knife. But you were able to run away and find a gun, Correct?

[B]

Okay, so here's why.

[A]

Or you just keep that saying on you, like, what's going on?

[B]

No, no, you'll know. No, no, she'll brag about it. Hold on.

[A]

Oh, of course. Of course.

[B]

Of course she'll tell you. The man briefly looked away to check for witnesses, and Pam took the opportunity to bravely knock the knife out of his hand. Can you believe that?

[A]

She.

[B]

What a star.

[A]

What is she talking about? Okay.

[B]

She knocked the knife out of his hand. Just like a little flick.

[A]

Butterfly kissed his hand open. What are you talking about?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Ran towards a man with a knife. Okay, yeah.

[B]

Well, they're in the car together, and I'm like, what? He looks over your shoulder, and then you flick the knife out of his hand? And then apparently ran away. And he followed her into his. Into her house. And then, of course, she retrieved her gun. This is her story. And then screen called 91 1, and then screamed like, this man is in my house. And he was like, wait, what? And she shot him.

[A]

Is she just bloodthirsty? Like, it was probably, like, what's the reason? Like, what? Like, what was he.

[B]

Well, I'll tell you. Oh, don't worry. I'll you tell. Tell you. So the police find a Ziploc bag inside the attacker's pocket. It contained roughly 900 in cash, along with a note. The note appeared to be instructions to go to Pam's house and get money for Russ Faria. She's trying to plant. She's trying to plant evidence that, like, Russ is involved in. In this. You know, that he did it, right?

[A]

Like, bro. Hang on. But first. First of all, hang on. Like, I'm just, like, spewing with her. Overflowing with right now.

[B]

It gets icky. She's so bloody. I don't even know.

[A]

First of all, you l got away with murder. Like, and it's not enough for you that someone else also got away with murder.

[B]

Shut the up.

[A]

Like, girl like, you already won't Stay out.

[B]

She cannot stay out of the.

[A]

Like, why? Like, why is she dragging. Just because he didn't. Like, it's one thing to get away with murder, and, like, someone else got framed for it. And, like, you quote one, but, like, because someone else also got quote away with it. That's, like, you don't want to share that title. Like, some he has to go back to jail.

[B]

Because I think, like, she had a fear that now that, like, he was gonna get. He was free. No, that now that he was out, they were gonna be like, well, then the only reasonable person left is Pam.

[A]

Like, her paranoia to her.

[B]

Well, I think she knew that they would look at her next, and so she was like, well, I'm gonna be on the hook for this if Russ is found innocent. Like, if he's found not guilty, I'm gonna be on the hook for this, which he was. And so now that he's not guilty. Guilty.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

She's like, like, they're gonna figure out it's me, and I need to make it look like, girl, does somebody just.

[A]

Go become a nun or something and just stay in hiding and, like, just keep a low profile?

[B]

Like, could it be Pam?

[A]

So this random man is now collateral damage, which also goes against my gaze here. Like, I. I re. It's feeling like there's not really a reason to this, except I don't even.

[B]

Think there's any sexual. Like, I think she just has such a twisted mind that it's not even sexual in nature. Any. Maybe it is, but. Okay. So I guess I don't even know if I have the notes about this in here. I may, but I. I guess I'll just add it here just in case. But before the second trial, she showed up at the TA's Office of the day. I was like, okay, like, we don't need any more info. Like, they're starting to realize, like, oh, our star witness is kind of kooky and maybe not as credible as we thought, and we're starting to look stupid. And so she keeps showing up. She's always carrying, like, a huge Slurpee also, by the way. And she's always slurping on it. Okay, girl. Yeah, I know, because she's so quirky. And so she apparently went to the DA's office with more evidence, right? Because she's, like, trying to now add to her story. And they're like, okay. And she goes. She basically says that she and Betsy were an item, but not. Not. Not because. Not because Pam wanted to. Like, it's so up. She basically says she like pitied her enough. She's like, I don't like women. I'm not. I'm not gay. But like, sex doesn't mean much to me. And if she wanted that from me, that's fine. And I just gave her. And it's like. So they were like, wait, so you had a sexual relationship? She's like, yeah, but it was private, so I didn't bring it up in the last trial. And they were like, you can't just say that.

[A]

I can't even tell if that's like helpful. Like, I mean, certainly not helpful, but like, what is. What is that gonna do for your. Your case that differently, like she said, actually.

[B]

Interesting. Thank you for reminding me. I didn't even clarify that her point, quote unquote, was that Russ had found out and threatened to stab them if they were. If he found the lesbians together. Oh, she.

[A]

I love where you're. What's going. Your frustration tickles me.

[B]

Like, she literally told them, oh, Russ said, I thought he would stab me if. Stab her. Stop Betsy. If she was gay.

[A]

So let's tack on a hate crime while we're at it.

[B]

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So keep him in prison. You know, that was her whole thing. And they're like, please go home. Like, let the grown ups handle this. And so she keeps inserting herself. It's like bat.

[A]

Okay, so there's this other guy that she's now, now they're trying to frame.

[B]

Man that she's saying is like attacking her. Oh, look, it looks like he's trying to get money from for Russ. It looks like Russ hired a hitman and the motive was getting their hands on Betsy's life insurance money, which was for Russ Faria written out in the note. Okay, so. Right, because that's really good criminal moves.

[A]

Because if you finally just got out of jail, the next thing you would do is obviously implicate yourself to hire a hitman.

[B]

Sign the paperwork with your legal name. Yeah. So the police ran the attacker, quote, unquote, fingerprints, and they came back as a match to a 33 year old man named Lewis Gumpenberger. Lewis's mother had already reported him missing. The police went to her home and she was so relieved, thinking they had found him safe. But the police told Margaret Birch that Lewis had been killed. And not only that, they told her he was suspected in a murder for hire plot. And Margaret, Margaret is floored because she goes, hey, he's not capable of that. And they go, yeah, we know and she goes, he's raising two children with his ex girlfriend. He adores his family. He would do almost anything to support them, but he would not commit violence. And they said, well, you never know. And she said, no, no. I mean, he's incapable physically because he was in a terrible car accident a few years ago. He suffered a traumatic brain injury, and he could not use most of the right side of his. His body. Oh, my God. He could barely use a spoon, let alone chase him down with a knife again.

[A]

And this. I. I hope this isn't at all offensive to the fact that, like, he's, like, chronically or disabled.

[B]

Like, yes, yes. But, like, she took advantage of that.

[A]

But this is, again, evidence that she's, like, not. She. She's still sloppy with her intentional plan.

[B]

Correct. She's not good at this. No, no.

[A]

Find someone. Someone who maybe could overtake you. You know what I mean?

[B]

Oh, she did. Don't worry. We'll get to her later. Oh, my.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, she really. This is just so really bad. Really bad at this. Really bad at this. There's no medical, physical way. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say metaphysical. There's no medical, nor is there a physical way that Lewis could have done this. So police are, like, scratching their heads, and. And then right around then, they get a call from this woman named Carol Alford. Carol is like, something weird happened to me last week. I was sitting on my porch in my trailer, and this woman pulls up in a black SUV and said she was a producer for Dateline NBC.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

She told Carol, oh, hey, I'm a producer for Dateline. I'm looking to pay someone to participate in a reenactment for the show. And I'll pay you a thousand dollars in cash. Carol got in the suv. She's like, well, okay, it seems like easy money. In fact, Carol began to feel it seemed too easy. And she suddenly realized this is kind of an uncomfortable red flag situation. She said to the producer, oh, shoot, I left my front door unlocked. Can I go back and lock it? So the producer drove her back home.

[A]

Home.

[B]

But once Carol got to her house and out of the suv, she was like, I'm not coming with you. Bye. And went inside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was then that the producer noticed that Carol had security cameras outside her house, and she suddenly ducked back inside her SUV and bolted.

[A]

Whoopsies. The irony of Dateline, like, actually appearing later on.

[B]

Well, no, Dateline was already in town.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

She had heard that Dateline was there, and she was delighted because now suddenly she's, like, on Dateline, right, Christine. I mean, it's like, bananas.

[A]

This is out.

[B]

So she's now running around saying she's a Dateline producer, and it's believable because these people know that there's this case going on and that there are Dateline producers around filming. And.

[A]

And to be clear, they are in town because they're covering this exact story.

[B]

This case where she.

[A]

She is one of the prime suspects. And now she's like, hey, I'm actually on the payroll.

[B]

She's rolling around saying, I work for Keith Morrison. Yeah. Off. It's just. It's just like, I can't be on me.

[A]

I've. I'm done trying to make sense of this.

[B]

Well, Carol had cameras on her house. And so Carol is so smart. She actually stalled outside for a few minutes to make sure that the producer's car, the license plate, was caught on camera, and it worked. When the producer said, like, what are these cameras? Carol said, yes, I also have a knife and know how to dial 911. And then this lady bolted. Peeled out of there, and the license plate was captured, and the vehicle was registered to a company owned by one Pamela Hub. Huh. You zoom in Pam's face, clear as day right there.

[A]

And dare I ask what. What do we think Pam's actual plan was? To just kill this random person? Person. Okay.

[B]

So the police put a case together against Pam, and the new working theory is after Russ was exonerated, there would be a new investigation. She knew she'd be the prime suspect, like, the clear, obvious answer here. So she needed to deflect suspicion and make herself look innocent and make Russ look guilty again. So she concocted a fake murder for hire plot against herself, and then she looked for an unwitting participant to frame. So in a other words, the woman with the cameras, Carol, had barely escaped with her life, like she was going to be the one who was shot in Pam's house. But she was like, something's off, and got out of the car and thankfully had that footage of the. Of the license plate. But tragically, Lewis had not escaped with his life. He had fallen victim to this plot, being told, oh, I'll give you a thousand bucks if you act in this, like, reenactment for Dateline. And he's like, sure, I've two kids to support.

[A]

Oh, so maybe he went in thinking for a second that, like, this was part of the reenactment.

[B]

No, that is what he went in. Yeah, she went in because Carol Bailed. And so then she went find someone else. She found this guy and said, would you be in an act? And so he walks in her house thinking he's gonna help her with a scene for Dateline and he gets shot in cold blood.

[A]

The notion of killing people to cover up your last killing is like. So it's backwards.

[B]

It's beyond, it's beyond, it's beyond.

[A]

It's like if you stop and think about for a second girl, like, this.

[B]

Is, I mean, really, this is a.

[A]

Lot like, let's just like a second. God, maybe stop killing people if you're trying to get away with not killing people. You know what I mean?

[B]

I think that's a good first step at least, right?

[A]

Kill people. If you don't want to be arrested.

[B]

For killing people, it should be the only rule, you know. So the police arrested Pam on August 23rd. That was just days after she claimed to survive this harrowing ordeal with this knife wielding attacker. And so, as the evidence is stacking up against Pam, the prosecution plans to seek the death penalty against her for the murder of Lewis Gumption, a Burger desperate to save her own life. Pam ultimately accepted an Alford plea. Which is basically we. I've talked about a little bit, but it's where the defendant doesn't admit. Admit guilt. But they say I could. I worry that if I go on trial, there's enough evidence that a jury will think I'm guilty. Like, I'm not saying I'm guilty, but I know it looks bad. So I'm gonna submit an Alfred Pre, please, saying I'm not guilty, but I'm sure pleading guilty, if that makes sense.

[A]

No contest or whatever it is.

[B]

No, it's, it's like, it's basically like saying, all right, I plead guilty, but just so everyone knows I didn't actually do it, I'm not saying I did it. It's like you're, you're admitting guilt, but you're not. But you're still saying, but I'm innocent. I just know my chances are not good if I go on.

[A]

I'm aware the situation looks bad.

[B]

Yes. I worry that a jury or a judge might find me guilty based on what evidence I'm seeing. Seeing. So I'm going to plead guilty to take the deal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I didn't do it. Yeah. So in 2019, Pamela Hup was sentenced to life in prison without parole for the murder of Lewis Gumpenberger. Then in 2020, Russ won a $2 million settlement in a lawsuit against three officers who were Accused of fabricating evidence in the murder case against him. Felony charges were, oh, by the way, those photos. They found them. The photos existed and guess what?

[A]

There was no luminol or no blood.

[B]

Not a single drop. Not a single drop. Of course, to say, like, yeah, I saw those, I swear. I mean, it's just wild. Yeah. So Russ won the two million dollar lawsuit. Felony charges were brought against deputy Mike Merkel, who had testified about these malfunctioning cameras and saying they destroyed all this evidence of blood that we'd spotted and then turns out to be that 130 images had been captured. Not a single spot of blood. And they were like hiding it from them. Like they deleted them and said, oh, they're missing.

[A]

Insane.

[B]

The issue with the photos notwithstanding, Mike was also charged with stalking and harassing the detective who led the investigation against him. That's just, just a sidebar. So he's just not a good dude. My God. In 2021, Pam was charged with first degree murder and the death of Betsy Faria. Thankfully, finally, she maintains her innocence. Of course she does. And her trial is scheduled for late August of 2026. So a year from now as we record this.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Very, very curious how that's going to go. In a 2022 interview, Russ said he hoped he would have a chance to testify in against Pam finally. That would be quite powerful, I think. And he wants justice for Pam and himself. He wants some sort of closure. Of course, his family, Betsy's family, they've all been just deeply traumatized by this whole event. The Dateline podcast, the Thing About Pam, followed by a series of episodes followed by the miniseries starring Renee Zellweger as Pam, is all very sensational and suspenseful and captivating. But like, as I pointed out earlier, the fan family didn't reap any reward from this and in fact, probably just were re traumatized by the whole ordeal. And I guess that's kind of what true crime does in a pop culture space. But it just feels, you know, a little, a little weird. I'm still trying to parse how I feel about all this. It's just really, really sad. And I feel like it just sometimes misses like the finer points. Like apparently there's still quite a fracture in the Faria family and, and the daughters don't speak with their father or he doesn't speak with them. Them. There's, there's been like quite a rift and it's just really heartbreaking because it feels like the whole family is just shattered, you know, and in some Ways.

[A]

It'S like, super understandable. And in other ways, it's just such a shame.

[B]

Yeah, it is. It's like it. You can see why and you can respect it, but it is sad. Yeah.

[A]

You can't blame anyone. It's. I mean, it's got to be awkward to, like, try to rekindle after. Like, you have to unlearn all the things you were forced to learn about somebody.

[B]

Well, and the teenagers, like, they were forced to testify on the stand, like, they had to testify against their dad and say, like, oh, he was like, angry or something, you know, like they were. Were like, pressured into testifying.

[A]

Yeah. And even if they didn't, even if they believe that he didn't do anything, maybe just being in a room with him is just too hard, you know?

[B]

I mean. Yeah. Or. I mean, I heard some theories is all Reddit and like, other. So I don't know the factual basis of this part, but somebody was saying they saw like, an interview he did where he said, like, he's not comfortable, he wants to move on and leave that behind. So maybe it's him. Not.

[A]

Maybe it's hard for him to see then.

[B]

Or relationship. Right.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

So it's unclear also, like, he seems fractured.

[A]

Maybe they could, like, look like their mom and it's hard to look at them. Or maybe it's.

[B]

Could be.

[A]

Yes, it could be anything. And all of it is fucked up, but also justified.

[B]

Like, valid. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's the story of the thing about Pam at the dog park.

[A]

I was talking to some people I've become friends with, and they're like, oh, like, what kind of topics does your co host bring? And I was like, sometimes they're very fucked up. I was like, I was like, I'm.

[B]

Sure you want to know the answer to that question.

[A]

I. I kind of gave a vague answer, but I was like, you know, it's. It's hard, hard to banter. It's. It's tough to call yourself a comedy podcast when I just sit in silence and go, oh, my God, a million times.

[B]

Yeah, that part's not funny. No, not at all. Oh, wait, I want my part's.

[A]

The funny part, I think sometimes I think.

[B]

So I'm going to send you a picture, first of all, of Pam, her mug shot. And then I'm going to also send you a picture of Renee Zeller in the scene where she is pressuring Betsy to leave and she sits on a love sack. You know those like, oh, my gosh. And the daughter goes, it's A love sack. And she's like, of course it is. And she sits there with her Slurpee.

[A]

Oh my God, do you see that? And with her love sack or with her chill chugs? Slurpee.

[B]

The Slurpee and the fudgeing coat.

[A]

You know, they made her look pretty similar. That's a pretty spot on sort of.

[B]

Saying, like it really. She does a good job of the acting. I know that. That, like it's not controversial. Got there. Yeah.

[A]

But it does look like her.

[B]

Really. It's convincing portrayal, if that makes sense. But wow. Well, what's that?

[A]

If anyone wants anything a little more light hearted, you could head on over to our Yappy Hour.

[B]

Yeah, I actually opened the document of Yappy Hour suggestions and questions. So I'm like, maybe we do that for finally. Now that we've asked people to tell us what to do, maybe we actually listen and do one of these yapping. Sure topics.

[A]

All right. And other than that, go watch Christine live while I sit at home with my dog. And you can go find [e-mail] right.

[B]

Thank you. That's right. And you can find us at. And that's where drake.comATWD podcast our listener stories.

[A]

If you'd like to submit your own situation that you endure.

[B]

Word.

[A]

And yeah, drink some water. Take that medication that you said you would take two hours ago and then you forgot.

[B]

I hate when that happens.

[A]

And you have laundry in the dryer.

[B]

Shit, I have laundry in the washer. It's even worse.

[A]

And that's why we drink.