E450 Estate Sale Unboxings and Open-Eyed Naps

Summary

And That's Why We Drink — Episode 450: Estate Sale Unboxings and Open-Eyed Naps

Date: September 21, 2025
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz

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Episode Overview

In this milestone 450th episode, Christine and Em bring their signature blend of humor, warmth, and chilliness as they delve into spine-tingling folklore and heart-wrenching true crime. The episode opens with Christine's haunted estate sale finds and stories from their personal lives (including "open-eyed" toddler naps), before launching into Em's folklore tale about the South African Tokolosh. Christine follows with the tragic, lesser-known case of Lori Annelise Page. As always, the hosts interlace their storytelling with candid banter, quirky tangents, and genuine empathy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Christine's Estate Sale "Unboxing" & the Ethics of Collecting the Past

• Christine shares her new hobby: buying old family photo albums and letters at digital estate sales.
  • She scored several photo albums for $31, describing it as hundreds of photos and vintage cards, some with "murder handwriting."
  • “It’s just kind of fun to look through. And then it’s also a very good, like, coffee table book. When people come over, you’re like, I don’t believe you.” (Christine, 06:03)
• The conversation veers into the value and spookiness of owning strangers’ family memorabilia, as Em reflects:
  • “For those, by the way, who are just listening, Christine has accumulated even more old as shit pictures of people who are certainly no longer living.” (Em, 04:26)
  • Em admits they're both fascinated and a bit unnerved by the prospect.

2. Open-Eyed Naps: Christine’s Daughter’s Preschool Antics

• Christine talks about her daughter Leona’s first days at preschool and her unique insistence that she rests with her eyes open:
  • “She told me… she kept my eyes open the whole time. You know how she’s like, that girl loves to not close her eyes.” (Christine, 14:29)
  • Em jokes: “Talk about a really good Halloween costume. Dressing up as a toddler who just… sleeps with eyes open.” (Em, 16:47)

3. Why They Drink: The Rituals & Reluctance

• Em shares their hot weather woes and elaborate iced tea rituals, musing on the inconveniences that drive them to drink (iced tea).
• The hosts riff on their thoughts about alcohol, life routines being disrupted, and the “window of time” to become a drinker:
  • “I think there’s like a window when you have to start drinking, and then if you don’t get into that window, then… I think you just don’t drink.” (Em, 13:13)

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Paranormal Folklore: The Tokolosh

(Em’s Story Segment, Starts Approx. 19:12)

What is the Tokolosh?

• South African folklore spirit with a “hundred aliases,” known for causing trouble and misfortune.
  • Visually: “Hairy primates. Monkey-like gremlin elves. …Often they have long, bony fingers, gouged out eyes, and a burn hole in its head.” (Em, 21:21 - 22:03)
  • Notably: "They are hairy little gremlin... with big old wangs." (Em, 21:31, 21:40)
• How is it created?
  • Usually by a witch (distinct from a healer, or ‘Sangoma’) to enact vengeance, at the cost of a loved one’s soul:
    “It’s a soul for a soul situation.” (Em, 25:22)
  • Ritual: A corpse, animal, doll, or sewn-together body is burned, eyes gouged as “to make this body no longer think or see for itself,” sprinkled with a shrinking powder (“like a Shrinky Dink situation,” Christine, 28:50).
• What does the Tokolosh do?
  • Pranks to violence: Steals food, ruins belongings, attacks sleepers. In extreme cases, associated with beatings or even murder.
  • Feared for “sucking the breath” out of sleeping victims—originating in real deaths due to carbon monoxide from sleeping too close to fires on the ground, which folklore morphed into tales of the Tokolosh (48:04).
• Protection & Superstition
  • Raise your bed off the ground to keep Tokolosh away (“They’re so small. You’re be-ableist is what it is.” Em, 45:07).
  • Use special salts, destroy ritual ingredients, or “surround yourself with positive people.”
• Notable Moments:
  • Spirited debate about the “physics” of Tokolosh endowments.
  • Em’s tangent about visiting the Museum of Sex with their mom (32:23).

Memorable Quotes:

• “Body parts sewn together to form a host is such a sentence.” (Em, 27:49)
• “If you ever wanted to ruin my life just… inconvenience me.” (Em, 37:09)
• Christine’s observation: “That’s a fascinating example of the use of folklore to create tangible changes in the lifestyle of people. The creature ultimately resulted in a positive impact on communities who believed in it.” (Em, quoting, 50:23)

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True Crime: The Case of Lori Annelise Page

(Christine’s Story Segment, Starts Approx. 55:34)

The Disappearance

• Lori Page, a brilliant, “nerdy” 12-year-old, disappears from her father’s home in Tallahassee, FL, June 2022.
• Troubled family history:
  • Early years with mother, Miranda, in Tennessee; periods of custody by child services.
  • Moved to father Andrew’s custody at age 11, after Miranda refuses her return from a visit in Florida.
  • Despite hardships, Lori is a standout student—top marks, eager for school, beloved by teachers.
  • Notably isolated at home: no phone, no social media, rarely allowed out.

Red Flags and Community Effort

• Multiple runaway incidents, but always staying close to school, her only community.
• After her disappearance, local efforts—led by her teacher, Margie, and a pastor, Rudy—rally to find her, frustrated by lack of police urgency.

Darker Truths

• Reports of physical abuse by her father Andrew: “He once yelled at Lori and beat her with a belt at the school bus stop in front of the other children.” (Christine, 71:44)
• Lori known to struggle with depression, low self-worth, and had talked of self-harm.

The Break in the Case

• For months, police treat it as a runaway—then, a year and a half after Lori disappears, evidence mounts against Andrew:
  • Search warrant on Andrew’s new home yields blood identified as Lori’s, a handgun, special blood-cleaning products, and suspicious internet searches (e.g., “dead body”, “bad neighborhood Tallahassee,” “where do police look to find missing kids,” etc.) (79:21–81:27)
  • Phone data pinpoints Andrew in a remote area on the day Lori vanished.
  • After a controlled burn uncovers remains, Lori’s body is found 30 meters from where Andrew’s phone pinged.

Aftermath

• Andrew arrested for 2nd degree murder, dies of pulmonary embolism in jail before trial (June 2025).
• Community holds a memorial for Lori. Her mother’s message is read:
  • “We honor Lori by carrying forward her light, choosing compassion over despair, and holding each other with the same warmth that she gave to us so freely.” (Christine, 84:47)

Memorable Quotes:

• “You know, that’s just the surface—like, that you don’t behave that way in public and then not worse behind closed doors.” (Christine, 71:57)
• “It’s like you hear of just, like, such a beautiful, sensitive, like, soul, you know, who just wanted to do good and just wanted to be around community and just wanted to work hard—it’s like the ultimate just slap in the face by the universe.” (Christine, 84:53)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On old photos:
  “For those… who are just listening, Christine has accumulated even more old as shit pictures of people who are certainly no longer living.” — Em (04:26)

• On Leona’s napping:
  “She told me… she kept my eyes open the whole time. You know how she’s like, that girl loves to not close her eyes.” — Christine (14:29)
  “Talk about a really good Halloween costume. Dressing up as a toddler who just… sleeps with eyes open.” — Em (16:47)

• On Tokolosh folklore:
  “Body parts sewn together to form a host is such a sentence.” — Em (27:49)
  “The Tokolosh will pick for you which loved one he’ll be taking…” — Em (25:56)
  “They are hairy little gremlins—with big old wangs.” — Em (21:40)

• On life’s inconveniences:
  “If you ever wanted to ruin my life just… inconvenience me.” — Em (37:09)

• On the power of folklore:
  “That’s a fascinating example of the use of folklore to create tangible changes in the lifestyle of people.” — Em quoting source (50:23)

• On the injustice of Lori’s story:
  “It’s like the ultimate just slap in the face by the universe, you know? It just feels like existential dread.” — Christine (84:53)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:38] Christine’s estate sale acquisitions and unboxing
• [13:33] Christine’s daughter’s experience at preschool (the open-eyed nap)
• [19:12] Start of Em’s story: South African folklore — The Tokolosh
• [48:04] Origins of Tokolosh tied to real dangers (carbon monoxide poisoning)
• [55:34] Christine’s story: The disappearance of Lori Annelise Page
• [79:21] Evidence found in Andrew Wiley’s car, breakthrough in case
• [84:47] Memorial for Lori and her mother’s statement

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Summary & Tone

The episode is deeply layered, balancing the hosts' morbid curiosity and irreverent humor with authentic compassion—especially in handling Lori’s case. While the Tokolosh tale is fun, wild, and sometimes crude (with discussions about old sex toys and anatomical oddities), the crime story is somber and tinged with frustration about systemic failures. The hosts’ rapport shines throughout, flipping between laugh-out-loud tangents and moments of haunting gravity.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a textbook example of And That’s Why We Drink: sharp wit, spooky stories, relatable digressions, and deep empathy for real-life tragedy. The hosts’ banter makes heavy topics accessible without trivializing them, and their thoughtful approach to folklore and true crime is both entertaining and respectful.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

Welcome to it. That's why we drink where we just talk about all of the holes that.

[B]

I mean, orifice is good. I like that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Holes is.

[B]

Is. It's a choice.

[A]

Feels like slang at this point. If you're talking about offices.

[B]

Holes. The movie came on TV yesterday and I went, oh, Leona, I used to like this movie. And then I went, I don't know yet if this is something I like. I haven't watched it in so many years that I'm like, it holds such a special place in my heart.

[A]

And she's like, okay.

[B]

I mean, I just was like, maybe not. It's like, maybe it's too Old for you. I like. I don't remember if it holds up. I don't remember. But I love that movie.

[A]

I think it's certainly in the book.

[B]

That book, man. Oh, boy, what an adventure. Am I right, folks?

[A]

Yeah. That's what they all said in unison to you across the globe.

[B]

All the. Yeah. I'm so glad to hear that. It is like talking into the void, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah. Welcome to 400 episodes. And I'm so glad we're. We're finally aware and sentient to this.

[B]

We've really. We've reached the singularity amongst ourselves.

[A]

Oh, Christine, how are you? I like. I like your shirt. Tired Moms, I'm assuming. Club Tired Moms Club.

[B]

That's exactly right. Thank you. I wear this every time I travel because sometimes, like, people can get kind of extra bitchy at the airport, and sometimes they'll just, like, look at my shirt and go, oh, yeah, me too. Like, you know, like, I'm like, can we just all be a little bit gentler with each other, please? It's my travel shirt. For that reason, I'm doing well. Thank you. I. I was a little late to recording.

[A]

I was late to recording. We both were, I guess.

[B]

Well, you were late, and then I was late and I said, you'll see. You'll know what it means.

[A]

And horrifying.

[B]

It's. It's the reason I drink. What's happening when my newest acquisition has arrived?

[A]

It's a Labubu. No. Oh, okay.

[B]

That would be fun.

[A]

I thought we were doing an unboxing or something.

[B]

Oh, that would be fun. That would be really fun. Don't get anyone's hopes up. It is an unboxing of sorts. I received a series of. About.

[A]

I want to leave.

[B]

This was like, I think last. No, a few nights ago. I was, of course, on my favorite. What do you call it? Estate sale site.

[A]

You don't even do it in real life. This is a digital thrift shop.

[B]

This is a digital thrift. Yeah. Digital estate sale. Okay. Yeah. And then so then I just, like, swung by, got my hands on these bad boys and. But the thing is, like, nobody was bidding on them. And it was like. Like, how I say that? Like, can you believe it?

[A]

And you're the only one shocked. And for those, by the way, who are just listening, Christine has accumulated even more old as shit pictures of people who are certainly no longer living.

[B]

Okay, I'm going to actually turn the camera down. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This is. This is my acquisition. And I like photos. Like, if I Go to an antique store and I like, look at this. Sometimes I'll be like, this is like $5 or $3 or whatever, like, for an old photo. I paid, I think, $31 for several photo albums.

[A]

Oh, my God. Truly?

[B]

Albums, Hundreds of photos. Like cards. Like, I always love to collect these, like, vintage cards, too. Like this one to my. Look, it looks like murder handwriting. To my darling.

[A]

Yeah. That is something that you wake up to in a basement. It's just.

[B]

Oh, my.

[A]

In random letters.

[B]

It sounds like a Criminal Minds episode. Hold on. Here we go. February 14, 1911. Oh, dear little Dorothy, with best wishes from yours truly, cousins Frederick and Louisa.

[A]

Precious.

[B]

Oh, and then Frederick wrote, I made my initials myself. Oh, I told you it's cute.

[A]

I. You know, I. I poo poo on this often, and I'll continue to do so, but I do, and I don't plan on stopping, but I do. I do see what's happening. Like, I'm. I'm not totally blind to, like, what's kind of cool. Yeah, that's awesome. It's. I mean, horrifying from a paranormal.

[B]

Wait till I open it. I think. I know we always say this, but, like, I think in the yappy hour or. Oh, my God, look at these. Bad.

[A]

That's like an album cover.

[B]

It really is. Yeah. I just, like, I don't know. Remember that time when we went through that one album? We found that whole family tree.

[A]

Yeah, that's dope. No, for reasons like that, I think it's super cool. Like, I. I get it. I really do get it, but I just am. I just couldn't because I just am so aware of everything.

[B]

You are correct. Because every time I go pick something up there, they're like, oh, we were wondering who bought that.

[A]

Yeah, it's like. That feels a little squirrely in there. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, God. And some of them are just like kind of half albums and stuff. And I just, like, I don't know. I bought all the, like, A lot of people had recommended different brands of, like, archival storage and stuff, so I've bought a lot of the materials to do that. I just need to kind of organize a little better. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's just kind of fun to look through. And then it's also a very good, like, coffee table book. When people come over, you're like, I don't believe you.

[A]

No, no, I. And. And I will say on behalf of the people that are in these photo albums, like, you're probably making them so happy. To know that it's just not.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

In a garbage can somewhere. But.

[B]

Well, because it was like 30 bucks and I was like 30 bucks and no one else bid on it. I was like bidding on it and nobody else added to the bid. And I was like, I mean, okay, if nobody really wants these, like, I don. Want them to get trashed like you said.

[A]

Yeah, I do. I. I think my. The way that my hyper fixations seem to present themselves these days is like, I don't. I want to collect something like that with the intent of like solving the riddle of like, who are these people? And.

[B]

No, I get that.

[A]

And I would just be mad that there's just a pile of people that I don't know anything about and I can't solve it. And then I can't presented. I don't know. I. In my, my. In my head I want to do something with them and I would just constantly feel like I dead ended myself.

[B]

I just think like, I don't know, sometimes I just like flip through them and like think, I don't know, read them.

[A]

Do you have a favorite of all that that you've. Or have you not even looked through it yet?

[B]

I have not even looked through it. So I was thinking maybe in the yap y I can read you one of these letters from 1911.

[A]

Yeah, I. So far. I mean, that was a good one to just stumble upon in front of all of us with friends.

[B]

Frederick. Let's put the rest behind a paywall just in case. I don't know what the rest of these say. 1911, over 100 years ago. Nobody knows.

[A]

Crazy. Yeah.

[B]

So maybe we can look at this. Oh, that's from Minnesota. Like it's so random. Like, how did this end up Anyway? So yeah, maybe in the app here we can like look through for fun. I'll redo some of the special ones.

[A]

Yeah, no, I would like that. Maybe we can solve a riddle. I don't know. We'll see. Oh yeah.

[B]

Maybe we can finally solve the big mystery.

[A]

The big mystery of who are all these big people?

[B]

Well, we did it with the other one. That was pretty cool. Yeah, I was impressed that we figured that out pretty quickly.

[A]

We're. We're like Mary Kate and Ashley is like detective agency.

[B]

Oh my God. Yes, but just like in the digital era, you know?

[A]

Yeah, but with very non digital pieces of photographs.

[B]

Oh, right. Also that. Also the Victorian era. Well, anyway, why do you drink? Because that's why I drink this.

[A]

That's a great reason to drink.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I drink.

[B]

I'm drinking water because I'm, like, so boring.

[A]

Okay. At least we know ourselves. I was gonna drink water. And then I. I feared the boredom or the perception of boredom. And so I had something sent out. Usual per usual at this point. Like, talk about a subscription service. Like, I just need one for this coffee shop.

[B]

Yeah, I know. You should be getting rewards points or whatever if you're not.

[A]

I do at my other place, but they. It's like a punch card, so you have to physically go in. And I'm like, that is not how this should be working.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, I got me a little iced tea, which I felt like I deserved yesterday. I kept thinking, oh, in a couple minutes I'll order one. Oh, in a couple minutes I'll order one. And they never did. And so this morning, I was like, now's the time for sure.

[B]

So, like, I blocked myself yesterday. What was I thinking?

[A]

Anyway, have me a little iced tea. I got me a second one because it's.

[B]

Oh, I know you like. Yeah, you know the method.

[A]

One for chugging, one for sipping. It's. It's always. I always got a double Schultz method. And I drink honestly, mainly because I. It's so unbearably hot here. That.

[B]

Yeah, I heard. I heard that.

[A]

It's. It's been like this whole week. It's in the 90s. And especially as someone who now has to go outside often because of a whole other living creature who wants to desperately be outside, and he doesn't understand I'm keeping him alive by not letting him do that.

[B]

Yeah. He's like, I love it out here. He's like, Olaf, like, I love this side. He's like, no, you really need to get a grip.

[A]

And when I let him outside for, like, five minutes at a time, he still doesn't understand. So part of me, which is like the, like, a hundred years ago, this would have not been animal abuse. Part of me is like, stay out there. Like, I want you to find out why we're inside.

[B]

You enjoy it.

[A]

But he'll never know because he's too coddled. So at the dog park, people aren't even going until like, 9 o' clock at night because it's so hot right now. It's like, oh, yeah.

[B]

And it's. And it's bad. It's like their paws get hurt and it's just.

[A]

Yeah. And he will not wear his shoes. So that brings a whole.

[B]

Oh, man. I'm like, I mean, what dog will wear their shoes? I've. I met a Dog recently with shoes on. And then I saw them again in the same shopping center, and she had different shoes on. And I was like, oh, my God, she is. She knows. She knows who she is. She's just picking them off one by one. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Anyway, I, I. Not that I really planned on going outside, but all of a sudden, now that it's not an option, I'm just like, oh, I don't like that. So I weirdly drink because I can't go outside. I don't know. I don't know what's wrong with me.

[B]

Hey, something just shifted in the atmosphere. I don't know.

[A]

Something just a crack of lightning just hit the. Hit the atmosphere. Yeah. And also, I. I don't like, that's kind of ruining my routine of, like, if I have to take them, I'd rather take them at this time instead of this time. And now I have to take them, like, when I'm usually about to, like, settle in for the.

[B]

When it's like, finally cool enough. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And you know what? This, you know why I'm drinking if. If you're really. What we're boiling it down to is I'm being inconvenienced. And we know how I feel about that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I'm glad you don't drink alcohol because if you were. You drink alcohol every time you were inconvenienced, which, I mean, some of us tend to do occasionally. Yeah. It would get. It would add a whole new element to your life. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm glad you're just drinking iced tea.

[A]

Look, I. I know it. I think it all the time. I'm like, what if I just started drinking today and then I'm like, oh.

[B]

My God, please don't.

[A]

I think it would be too sad at this point. Like, I think, like, because I would want to, like, have the, like, the experience and everyone else is, like, stopping that. They're like, I'm.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. They're like, hey. Actually, it's starting to make me feel, like, bad.

[A]

Yeah. No one's going to want to go out and, like, get drinks regularly with me, you know, So, I mean, I.

[B]

Would, but thank you. Not everyone. Not everyone.

[A]

So I think there's like a window when you have to start drinking, and then if you don't get into that window, then it's like, I think you just don't drink.

[B]

You know, it's like either you stop drinking at this age, you don't start. Usually. I don't usually keep drinking. Around, like, as you get older, but not really. Usually start from the beginning. Yeah.

[A]

Well, quick question, and if you don't want to talk about it, that's fine, but. Yeah, Leona's first day of preschool was yesterday or two days ago.

[B]

Yeah, she loves it, dude.

[A]

Good.

[B]

She gets to bring, like, a little sleeping bag, and she goes to her. We put her in, like. I know. And it's a Dino Ranch sleeping bag. And we put her in the. She wanted to be in, like, the rest area instead of, like, the. I keep saying the restroom. And then everyone's like, the restroom. And I'm like, no, no, like, the rest.

[A]

She wants to be in the toilet. She's getting a swirly, actually.

[B]

In an industrial bathroom. Yeah, no, she wants to. Wants to be in the rest and. But they also have, like, a nap room. And I'm like, she doesn't take naps, but she's, like, doing so much that she'll probably be tired. And so she was in the rest area thingy, and I was like, oh, so, like, did you get to rest? And she's like, yeah, but I kept my eyes open the whole time. You know how she's like, that girl.

[A]

Loves to not close her eyes. I don't know what her deal is.

[B]

It's so strange. And then Blaze talked to her teacher today and said, oh, no. She apparently falls asleep every time. Like, so they're moving her to the nap room, and I'm like, oh, okay. She told me. And Blaze is like, she doesn't say that to me. And I'm like, I don't know why she keeps insisting to me that she doesn't close her eyes.

[A]

Certainly a phase I wouldn't expect. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like, did I fuck you up somehow already? Like, I don't. I don't know what the closing the eyes is about.

[A]

You know when, like, macho men are like, I don't believe in therapy because, like, that's weak. That's weak. For some reason, I feel like she thinks, like, closing rises or something, but.

[B]

I think there's some fear there, maybe about dreaming, because she's like, I don't have dreams. I don't. I don't have dreams. And I'm always like, yeah, she probably just had her first bad dream and scary. Yeah. Didn't know what she was, but I didn't even. She never said anything. I'm like. And we're always, like, you know, open. We're like, you can tell us anything. But she's also very much. She's like, we're like, hey, like, what's wrong? She's like, I don't want to tell you. And we're like, oh, God, she's three. And she's already like, I don't want to tell you.

[A]

Three going on.

[B]

Exactly. It's already kind of like we have to play, like, wait till she's ready to tell. But, like, so with the dreaming and the eyes open, I'm like, listen, if you're having bad dreams, you can tell me. And she's like, I don't have dreams. And I'm like, okay, okay, girl, relax.

[A]

Okay. Well, you know, eventually it's gonna come out. What's that?

[B]

I hope so. Oh, I just. She loves her school, and she's just really happy, and I'm just. It's still. Oh, it's a big relief because it was a big shift, but good. Yeah.

[A]

Well, thinking of you during these trying times where she apparently doesn't dream. And, you know, at some point, she's gonna have maybe her own podcast when she's, like, our age. And then she's gonna be like, I had this weird thing about not being able to dream. I still have never told my mom about it. And you'll hear it in the car, like, our moms hear it.

[B]

I will finally listen to it and get the story. You're right. Eventually it will come out. You're right.

[A]

Yeah, right?

[B]

There's no way around it. I know it's gonna have to blab.

[A]

I know it. I know it. Or. Or it's gonna become a thing where, like, around the Christmas dinner table, all of the families, like, making fun of her for, like, not ever opening her eyes or closing her eyes. But it'll be a bit at some point.

[B]

Don't worry, it'll be a bit. I think I've already made it a bit on this podcast, so. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, talk about a really good Halloween costume. Dressing up as a toddler who just.

[B]

Sleep with eyes open. Like, what? I sleep with my eyes. Like, who says that at age three? I mean, whatever. I guess my child.

[A]

I. For all you know, it's from, like, a TV show or something.

[B]

I know. And I'm like. I wish I could just kind of, like, figure it out, but she does not want me to know, so I'm okay. Whatever.

[A]

Well, I'm happy.

[B]

Your wishes.

[A]

Happy that she doesn't dream and had.

[B]

A good school day. Yes. And doesn't nap at all.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no.

[B]

Not in the restroom.

[A]

Funko M takes a nap, though, so.

[B]

Yeah. So do I. Hell no.

[A]

One day she'll understand how much a nap is worth it.

[B]

One day when she's a podcast.

[A]

Hello, everybody. Doing a quick little survey and scanning the crowd. Please raise your hand if you've ever dealt with any discomfort. Me. Raise your hand if you've ever dealt with any sleeplessness. Bing, bing, bing. I went to bed when the sun rose. Raise your hand also. Last question. If you've ever dealt with stress or anxiety. Bing, bing, bing. A thousand times. Me, me, me. If you are also a victim of one, two, or all three of these things, you know, you could use a little cornbread hemp, cbd. Gummy. I'm telling you, listen. They are formulated to help relieve discomfort. Boom. Sleeplessness, boom. Stress, boom. And corbread hemp, CBD gummies are made to help you feel better. So just in general. So if you're just. Just want to feel a little less like you're not dealing with work or you can't sleep or you're feeling a little off, and maybe cornbread and gummies can help you out. They've also got great flavors. Blueberry, yum. Blood orange, yum. Cherry, lime, yum, yum, yum. They're all very, very, very good. Why don't you try all three, See what happens. And right now. And that's how drink listeners can save 30 on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com drink and use code DRINK at checkout. That's cornbreadhemp.com Drink and use code DRINK. I have a story for you. It is short because we. When I did these notes, I don't know where in the episode release this comes out, but we were having technical difficulties, and so I was like, I'm just gonna do a short episode because who knows when our Internet's gonna crap out. So anyway, I have a South African folklore for you.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

This is the Tokolosh. Do you know about the Tokalosh?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

I love how it sounds.

[B]

The. I do too. It's very satisfying.

[A]

Right out of the mouth.

[B]

That's what they say. Rolls right out of the mouth.

[A]

That's the first bullet point I've got. Tokolosh rolls right out of the mouth. So in South African lore, the Tokolos is very deeply connected to many of their communities. It has gone by many names. Some of them are just different spellings of Tokolosh. Some of his talkaloshi one is and sorry if I'm butchering these, but I'm Trying here. Healy. Wari Chuhura. Healy. Healy. So there's a whole bunch of different.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. So this thing has a alias and a half, 100 aliases.

[A]

And depending on which community or which group of people you're talking to, it's got different versions. And so.

[B]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[A]

I see big old mess over here with the tokalosh. But I'm gonna try to get it. I'm. I tried to narrow it down to, like, it's. It's main meat and potatoes. To describe a tokolos for you, he's very, very short, like, one foot tall.

[B]

Oh, why did I not expect that?

[A]

Yeah. Tokalosh feels a little intimidating to me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And then I hear it's like a.

[B]

Tall being or something. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. For some reason, tokalosh tells me like, you're from, like, a cave or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or like, you know, a wetlands.

[B]

Yeah. It does feel like a wet. A marsh.

[A]

So, yes. Tokalosh feels a little like damp dripping everywhere.

[B]

It does. Marshy. It rolls right out of the mouth.

[A]

You said it, and I thought it. So Togo is one foot tall. Now rain in your comments for a second. They're apparently very well endowed.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And please hold. You'll see why. Because obviously it's the first thing I want to talk about.

[B]

But trust me here.

[A]

Trust me here.

[B]

I do. I do. You have your reasons, I'm sure.

[A]

They are hairy primates. Monkey. Like gremlin elves.

[B]

Right. Just your standard.

[A]

Just like. I tried to clump it all together. Some say it's a gremlin. Some say it's an elves. And say it looks like a little monkey. I don't know what to tell you. They all have big old wangs.

[B]

Yeah. What's. Yeah. Okay. That seems to be the combining factor here.

[A]

But so hairy little gremlin. Maybe that's the best we've got. Often they have long, bony fingers.

[B]

I was like, long, bony what? Okay.

[A]

And long bony bones and long, bony fingers. Gouged out eyes.

[B]

What?

[A]

And a burn hole in its head.

[B]

What?

[A]

So some sources say it can also shape shift, so that maybe that's why it's a gremlin. Elf monkey. Some also say this is different versions that believe that this is more of a water spirit than anything else. They say that this can become invisible when it drinks water or actually can become invisible by, like, swallowing or sucking on a stone. A certain type of stone. It makes them invisible.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

A lot of things going on here.

[B]

Yeah. They couldn't commit to the. To the one Storyline.

[A]

It. Yeah, it feels. And I don't know if it's because, like, maybe with different languages.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Maybe like it's just being translated differently. I have no idea.

[B]

It's like regionally different.

[A]

Yeah, it's like. It's a monkey. No, it's Nel. Oh. Actually, if it sucks on a stone, it's invisible. Actually, if it swallows the stone, it's invisible. If it swallows a stone, it's probably dead. If it's one foot tall.

[B]

If it's one foot tall.

[A]

So different communities have different ways of how the Tokalosh is created.

[B]

We can all agree he's a huge, huge ding dong. That's the one thing we can all agree on.

[A]

And also now that we're mentioning it, like, is it in proportion to his one foot tall body or are we.

[B]

Mentioning it a six or are we not yet mentioning it? We're not yet.

[A]

I don't know anymore. I'm lost.

[B]

We'll get there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'll wait. I'll wait.

[A]

Thank you. So different communities have different ways that the Tokolosh is created, but the main one is that it's created by a witch or sorceress. And I saw some sources saying that it's a certain type of witch called a Sangoma. But then other websites that, when I looked up Sangoma said that this was more of like a healer. Although I could see why witch and healer are. Are kind of conflated with each other. But then the story here seems to be that the witch creating a Tokolosh is usually nefarious in some way or higher for nefarious purposes.

[B]

It's like a negative thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In this context. Okay.

[A]

And there were actually some Sangomas who were interviewed about Tokolosh. And they even said like, I don't know how to create one because I'm not a witch. So, like, it seems like there's a bit of a divide.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm just gonna stick with the word witch in general because Sangoma seems to have different connotations, like you said. So anyway, a witch creating a Tokolos is the most common way that this happens. Basically, this witch is hired by a local who wants to enact revenge upon someone or cause harm on someone in town in one way or another. It could be like, oh, I just want them to have bad luck or I want them to get sick or something like that. And in one common version, the client has. When the client goes to a witch and says that they want this done, the price that they Pay is probably monetary, but on top of that, they are told that this will be a soul for a soul situation. So you would think that means that they're selling their soul to create the soul, the Tokolosh, but really, they have. They're told that this soul will be a loved one of theirs, and they don't get to pick which loved one.

[B]

So you, like, sacrifice someone. You don't know who. From your family or your loved ones to. In order to. And so is this the witch who does that or the person who's hiring the witch has to sacrifice someone in their family?

[A]

The person hiring the witch says, I want you to make me a tok lotion. The witch is like, all right, be prepared for, like, story. One of your loved ones to die somehow.

[B]

That's dark. Yeah.

[A]

And, yeah. So they also don't get to pick. It's not like, oh, well, that one person who was a loved one. It's like, it could be your kid. It could be your dad. It could.

[B]

You know, that's so. Wow, that's intense.

[A]

Yeah. So you must really fucking hate this person to do this. And the story goes that the Tokolosh will pick for you what your. Which loved one he'll be taking from you when. When he's done with all of his misdeeds.

[B]

Ew. Afterward. That. Somehow, that's even weirder. Like, okay, now I get my prize. Like, ugh.

[A]

And it's a vague amount of time because it's. It could be weeks later. It could be years later. Which I could see. Like, Census is a mythical creature. I. I could see how if it's that wide of a range and eventually someone you love will pass away, and it can be justified by the Tokolo. She'll be like, well, right. You know what I mean?

[B]

So I can see how that continues the story. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It's. It ends up being like a. Like a confirmation bias in some way. So, okay, let's pretend that they've made this arrangement, which make me a. So close. Someone I know is going to die eventually. The witch then finds a body. Just a dead body. Or it could be a symbolic body. This can include. Actually, this is a quote, a corpse, an animal, a witch's familiar, a doll, or body parts sewn together to form a host.

[B]

Hello. Why not just go find. Okay, first of all, wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just find an animal if you're gonna do that. Not to be weird, but, like, where are you getting all these body parts?

[A]

Yeah. Or literally, one of the options is a doll like, just do it exactly like.

[B]

You mean my doll made of human limbs? No, not that doll. The other doll.

[A]

My Frankenstein doll.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So, yeah. Or I. I assume the more the most common one is a corpse, because that's the spookiest. But I. I don't really know for sure. Body parts sewn together to form a host is such a sentence.

[B]

I mean, that is, like, out of left field, like. Oh.

[A]

So, okay, okay. We find a body, or we make one, or we build one with our hand, with our body. And then the witch takes a hot iron rod and burns it into the body's head. Hence the burn mark on their head.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

And their eye sockets. Hence their gouged out eyes. And that's because part of this ritual, or the symbolism behind it at least, is to make this body no longer think or see for itself. So that way, it will be at the command of the witch.

[B]

Oh, my.

[A]

Okay, then the witch sprinkles some sort of powder. I tried looking up what type of powder. I got all sorts of different answers, but some sort of powder on the body. And you would think, like, oh, that's to, like, preserve it or bring it to life or something. But apparently this is the shrinking compound that makes them one foot tall.

[B]

That's the shrinking.

[A]

You know how that goes.

[B]

It's like a shrinky dink situation. We're like, okay, I see. It's like, oh, there's just some magic. Don't worry, Chemical. Don't worry about it. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

The fact that a witch could just be out there playing with shrinky dinks, and instead we're doing this soul sacrifice.

[B]

I mean, really, we could be doing, like, a fun little, like, honey, I shrunk the kids moment reboot. But instead we're, like, gouging out eyes. I. I don't know. Imagine we could have taken this a different direction if honey, I shrunk the.

[A]

Kids three or four. The. The enemy or the. The villain was a Tokolo.

[B]

Feels like that's where we're heading. Yeah, we cannot forget that part. Really important when we're casting.

[A]

So from there, the witch commands this Tokolosh to terrorize whoever the client is seeking vengeance on. Right. So some versions, powder, like, shrunk the.

[B]

Person, but then, like, gave them a huge wang at the same time.

[A]

You know, I'm kind of curious. Like, does it not work on penises? Or are. Is the witch dodging the penis when sprinkling?

[B]

And, like, does it have to have a penis or does it just get one? Like, if you. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's like. Oh, it just said like a body or like an animal. It didn't say like one with a penis.

[A]

Does my Raggedy Ann have to have a big old.

[B]

Exactly. Like. What do you mean, a doll with a penis? What are you talking about?

[A]

Yeah, you know what? Two for one sex doll.

[B]

With a penis.

[A]

Yeah. A male sex doll.

[B]

Is that a thing? I mean, I'm sure there's a thing, I guess. Can you imagine if you gouged out the eyes of a sex doll, though? Because then it would just deflate.

[A]

Good point. Although, like. No, I'm thinking of like those, like.

[B]

I've unfortunately creepy ones.

[A]

I've seen like the like, fully anatomically correct, like, mannequin.

[B]

Right, okay. That kind of sex doll. I was thinking like the inflatable, like, kind of jokey kind. Okay.

[A]

I mean, I see that's you're hurting.

[B]

Nobody had those, like hundreds of years ago.

[A]

No, I don't think they had cast molding or anything like that.

[B]

Yeah, or silicone, like.

[A]

Or silicone factories.

[B]

Yeah, silicone factory.

[A]

Back then, I think during. I. I don't know what year this is, but if we're pretending it's the old. I weren't vibrators, like rocks or something.

[B]

So. I mean. No, what was old? They had like these crazy machines and stuff. Like vibrating machines.

[A]

Oldest vibrator. The world wants to know. Don't. Don't even play with me.

[B]

I mean, I feel like it's not a rock because. What do you mean?

[A]

Well, the first dildo was a rock. Right.

[B]

Okay, well, that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. Wow, you're right. It looks like a hairdryer or something.

[B]

Yeah, they're really crazy.

[A]

The polar electric vibrator. It's literally called vibrator. Good for them.

[B]

Proud of it. Yeah, I know, because it was supposed to like. But it wasn't supposed to like, get you off. It was like. Oh, it. Like how it like heals hysteria or something.

[A]

Oh, right. Yes, that, of course.

[B]

Oh, my God. It's also known. I'm so sorry. As Granville's hammer. It was originally designed to treat muscle aches, pain and other ailments by stimulating nerves.

[A]

Oh, well, have you ever seen one in real life?

[B]

A steam powered manipulator table massager. That's what they called it. What?

[A]

Yeah, the Granville hammer or whatever it is. Have you ever seen one of those?

[B]

A Granville hammer? No. Have you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Mom, Let me see.

[A]

Mom, I know you're listening.

[B]

What are you in the car?

[A]

My mom and I, when I was way too young, decided to go on a mommy kid date to the Museum of Sex.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

And we learned a lot about each other that. That day. We learned a lot about others. We learned a lot about the Granville hammers. There was a whole room of them. I was like in high school, so it wasn't super creepy, but it was okay.

[B]

Okay. It was still like uncomfortable because it's.

[A]

Like you're police didn't need to be called. But it was like a really good probably script for Arrested Development or something like there was.

[B]

Right. I get you.

[A]

Ye. Yeah. But that's where I saw the big old mannequin with his own hammer, if you will.

[B]

And. Oh, I see. Okay.

[A]

Anyway. Museum of Sex in New York, everyone, if you really want a weird date with your mom.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

10 out of 10. The gift shop is incredible, I'll tell you that.

[B]

Yeah, I imagine there's no more to say on my end. I feel like you've said all that needs to be said.

[A]

Someone needed to go to the Museum of Sex with their mom and I, I apparently volunteer as tribute. So if anyone needs a review, I'll. I'll throw it on over to you.

[B]

Yeah. And did it for the plot already.

[A]

You know, I love doing it for the plot. I'd do it again for the plot and actually things would be different now because back then I was a 16 year old boys now, like, yeah, yikes. I can give a real opinion. Where are we?

[B]

Is that where you realized it? You were like, oh, never mind.

[A]

No, but I, I. There actually was a whole floor based on homosexuality in nature. Fun fact. So that was your mom.

[B]

Like we are not going on that floor.

[A]

That actually would have been a really funny way to come out to my mom. In hindsight, I should have done it that way. It's just.

[B]

That would have been pretty good.

[A]

Like. And there's another right here.

[B]

Oh, should I just stand behind this case? Would that help? A lion?

[A]

They had videos everywhere of gay lions. They were really.

[B]

Oh, okay. That took me by surprise. Okay, fair enough.

[A]

Okay, anyway, sorry, back to this. Okay, so the tokalosh wreaking havoc. Big old schlong he. Oh, the. The way that a witch will, I think keep the tokolos docile. That's the way it was phrased me, but I'm assuming it's like so the tokalosh doesn't like turn on her or something. But then again, the whole burning of the eyes in mind is. It implies that it's now imprinted on you? I don't totally know. But to keep it docile or I guess when she doesn't want it to go out there causing trouble, she will feed it curdled milk and she will trim the hair that hangs over its eyes as like an act of kindness.

[B]

So you mean it's not eyes, right? It's holes.

[A]

Hey, we really. Full circle orifices.

[B]

Orifice. Yeah. I'm not like, hey, just so you know, I'm uncomfortable with that part. I don't know if anyone's wondering or keeping score, but for some reason, I don't really know what it is. Can't put my finger on it, but. But not for me just cutting the bangs and curdled milk.

[A]

That's actually a great point. I didn't even. I totally forgot that it. It doesn't have eyes. So, like, why are you trimming?

[B]

It's so nice.

[A]

Like, it can't see.

[B]

It feels like an extra. You actually.

[A]

It's like if you could see, all.

[B]

Of a sudden, I took your eyes out. But here's a nice haircut you'll never see in the mirror.

[A]

Well, okay, so that is how she kind of keeps this thing at bay. She feeds a curdle milk, she gives it little haircuts. Apparently she will also. This is some of the versions, the Tokolosh will also have sex with the witch. Although I will say, oh, this is probably stereotyping because, you know, witches sleep with the devil or whatever. So I'm right.

[B]

There's always that kind of implication. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I don't know how true that would actually be, depending on who you talk to. But that is part of the story. And there you have it.

[B]

So, I mean, maybe it is a sex doll after all.

[A]

Yeah, baby, that's of. Of the theories. That's nicer than I'm gonna gouge its eyes out and give it spoiled milk.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So now the Tokalosha has created terrorizing victims, and versions range from all sorts of mischief. I mean, it could be like just pranking people to like full blown murder.

[B]

Mischief.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you're like trading the soul of your child for this.

[A]

It's like, okay, so on the mischief side, they will sneak into your house at night, they'll make a lot of noise, they'll knock over your stuff, they'll steal your food, they'll like tear up your clothes. You know, the usual scene.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's. It inconveniences you, which, honestly, if you ever wanted to ruin my life Just inconveniences.

[B]

I know how to do it.

[A]

Don't 100 splinters. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

It's just. Yeah. So I would find a way.

[A]

At other times, they will find their victim sleeping in bed and attack them in whatever means necessary.

[B]

Ew. As a one foot little being with no eyes. Ugh.

[A]

Yeah. And I. This is where I also. This is why I was trying to hold off on the well endowed situation. They will attack people in whatever means necessary. Oh, no.

[B]

So there's like sexual assault here with this thing too. Oh, get about it.

[A]

I will say I did not see anything when it comes to like. Like a lot of. A lot of victims of Tokolosh are children. But I did not see anything about that in children. It was.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

At least I don't.

[B]

Let's hope those are just few and far between stories.

[A]

Yeah. And also not to. You know, this is somebody's culture. So I'm not trying to like poo poo on it, but like, it is helpful to also remember that this is a mythical creature. So.

[B]

Yeah, right, right, right, right, right.

[A]

That helps that hopefully this isn't actually.

[B]

Happening on a regular basis or anything like that especially.

[A]

Yeah. So mostly what I saw when it comes to like the Toklos attacking kids, it was more pranky. And it's also become who is like.

[B]

Hiring them to attack kids? Like what kind of sicko?

[A]

Maybe another kid? I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I guess also, I think a lot of kids being involved has nap a big chunk of it. I think is more as a cautionary tale today of like, watch out or the tokush will get you. But when it comes to more violent, graphic things, it was more directed at women, also men. But it will apparently on the more violent side, beat you up. It will choke you. Because they have those long fingers. The thing that they're most known for, which is fascinating, which I get to later, but just remember this is that they're best known for making people sick and literally sucking the breath out of them.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

So remember that they. They've been said to leave long, nasty scratches on your back that get infected. They will feed off your negative and fearful energy to stick around longer than they should. And because of the connection to this folklore and its superstition, the Tokolosh have been blame for very real situations.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

In the 1930s, there was a man who killed his nephew because he thought that his nephew was a toal in disguise.

[B]

Oh, geez.

[A]

In the 1950s, there was actually a serial killer in the area who claimed he murdered his victims because he thought he himself was a Tokolos.

[B]

Oh, dear.

[A]

So there's obviously a mental illness or mental health situation going on here in the 1990s though, unfortunately. And then this also 1990s for children and then also everywhere else for. It's. It's not just strictly in the 1990s for adults, but in the 1990s, there were several kids who were being physically abused by their family members.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

And it was told that Tokoloshas were responsible. And.

[B]

Yeah, that's when it gets. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So just to give you an idea too, of how ingrained Tokoloshas are in the community where, like, some people actually thought this could be like a plausible excuse to what ends up being later found out as obviously a cover up by family members who were hurting the kids. But it was. It was like something they actually said and thought it would. They would get away with it. You know what I mean? So that's.

[B]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's. No, I don't like that.

[A]

Also, unfortunately, many women who in real life have been sexually assaulted and they feel like in their community they would be shamed or something, a lot of them will say that they were assaulted by Tokoloshes because they don't want to deal with the repercussions.

[B]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[A]

Who may have really done it of reporting something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So even when it's not a crime, though, I just wanted to get the dark part out of the way that like Tokaloshes have been blame as well as been blamed by the victims for things. And often it is to cover up a much more serious situation. Even when it's not a crime, it is common to blame Tokolosh for sillier things that happen to you or around the house. So if something goes missing all the time, you'll be like, oh, the Tokoloshuka. So there really is such a gamut on how people perceive this creature depending on where you are.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

Many people are superstitious about even saying the name of the Tokalosh and fear that it welcomes them into their house at night. And like I said earlier, it's now a cautionary tale that will. You'll warn misbehaving kids to do better, or else the Tokolosh will get them while they're sleeping. I've. I heard that it will bite your toes off while you're sleeping. Well, oh, God.

[B]

Because that's, like, already a fear of, like, your foot being out of the covers. Like, I'll do that.

[A]

I, I feel like that's a universal feeling of being scared. And so every parent just feeds into it with their own regional creature. Ye. Yeah.

[B]

That's horrible.

[A]

So how to get rid of a Tokolos? Because once they've done their job, I guess it's like, all right, wrap it up. We don't need this guy anymore. There are a few things you can do. You can destroy. I guess it's called muthi, but it's essentially the herbs and oils and ritual ingredients that were used to create the tokalos. So just destroy that. Apparently, it's often buried by the house of the victim that, like the Tokolos. Yeah. So, like, when the tokalos being made, then all of the ritual stuff is then buried next to the house where the toggles are supposed to attack.

[B]

Okay, I see. By the witch.

[A]

By the witch. So got it.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

In theory, you can dig that up and gotcha. So I wonder if you're having, like, a really bad week. Do you just start digging up your own yard, wondering if someone buried something.

[B]

And the neighbors are like, when will he figure out he's just kind of having a shitty week, you know?

[A]

So apparently that is not super possible for a lot of people. I, I, I don't totally understand the reasoning, but they said if you want to do something easier than that, which I always want to do something maybe.

[B]

Easier than you can't find the. Well, maybe it's because you can't find it.

[A]

Good point.

[B]

It may not be there. I don't know.

[A]

It may not be there.

[B]

Or like, not to challenge the myth or whatever. But, you know, maybe it's like, oh, well, if that doesn't work, like, you don't find evidence of.

[A]

Right.

[B]

These herbs. I don't know.

[A]

Good point. Or you just don't want to do.

[B]

Leg or, or your arms are so.

[A]

Tired, a lot of people will resort to something else, like using certain salts, which are literally called tokolosh. Salts come in different colors, so you know that that's fine.

[B]

Cute.

[A]

And they'll sprinkle that near threshold so the Tokolosh can't come in any longer. Another thing you can do, which a sangoma. Sangoma. The, the healers, they said another thing you can do is literally surround yourself with positive people because it wards off the negative energy that, that the tokolish feeds off of. So I love that they're. They're holistic way of it is like.

[B]

Yeah, it is very.

[A]

The power of belief and the power of kindness.

[B]

Surround yourself with positivity and what are the odds? I would like, punch them in the head. But yeah, I get it though. I do.

[A]

The most common way to avoid attacks from the Toklos, though, those are some of the more. I guess if you're taking this, like, super seriously, then you might do all those things. But the most common thing that people do to keep Tokalosh away is to raise their bed off the ground just because they're so short.

[B]

They're so small. You're kidding me.

[A]

You're be ableist is what it is. Just. Wow. Dang. Don't make it accessible. Your home is.

[B]

Well, I have like a little ramp for my dog, so I feel like I would have to.

[A]

You're. I'll tell you that.

[B]

Yeah, they're gonna find their way up. Oh, no.

[A]

But yeah, just. Basically the. He's just a will guy. And so you got a little platform bed.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Hard to get to. So it's apparently very common for beds still in like a superstitious tradition to sit on top of bricks or paint cans or risers in some way. And it's just very common, I guess, in. In these areas to elevate your bed while you sleep. And if someone like me walked in was like, why is everyone's bed off the ground? Apparently it's because of the Tokolos.

[B]

So that's so fascinating. And like, listen, I love a lofted bed. I get it.

[A]

Yeah. In my mind, it's like, just make yourself a bunk bed. Get rid of the ladder. Just. Just have a good ladder.

[B]

Just. Yeah, just like sim style. Just jump in a pool, take the ladder out.

[A]

I was always jealous of the people who had that one, like, PB Teen bunk bed, where it was a. You had a desk underneath the bunk bed.

[B]

The loft. Yeah, that's what I mean. The lofted with the desk under. Oh, God. My. My God. My dream.

[A]

I. It was one of those things. If you have that in your house, you made it.

[B]

You've really succeeded at being a teenager.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So this is. Oh, this is the interesting thing I wanted to tell you about that I told you to hold on to. I was. It was when I was telling you one of the things that the Tokalosh is best known for is like sucking the life out of you and.

[B]

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[A]

Sucking the breath out of you and making you feel so sick. So I don't really know how to Start this part. But I. It's so interesting. The. Another. How do I say this? Because it's. Oh, God, what's wrong with my brain? So people now sleep on raised beds because of the Tokolos, who are best known for also sucking the life out of you. And in two different ways. This comes from the origins of the Tokolos, from all. All the way back when Toklos became a concept for these people. It was in Bantu. Bantu speaking areas. It was during a time when people would often sleep around a fire on cold nights. And so they'd be sleeping on the grass on the ground. They'd all surround this fire, and it would just keep them warm. And then mysteriously, a bunch of these people who were going to bed by campfire, they were all dead by morning. And it was a huge mystery of, like, why are all these people dying? So this led to the belief that there was a creature who was coming in at night and sucking the breath out of them. And that led to the creation of this creature, the Tokolosh, where it's like, don't sleep next to the fire on the ground, or else the tokalosh is.

[B]

Going to get you.

[A]

You. So you should sleep somewhere elevated so the Tokolosh can't get you. And this actually ended up saving lives, because what they didn't know at the time was that people who were sleeping on the ground so close to the fire, they were giving themselves carbon monoxide poisoning.

[B]

Yes. Okay, I've heard that before. Oh, I didn't even clock that. So the fire, it's like they just stopped breathing. So you probably are like, oh, shit.

[A]

So it's making them sick and sucking the life out of them. Sucking the breath out of them.

[B]

Wow, that's.

[A]

That's so scary because the fire would burn the oxygen around them, and if they're sleeping that close to the fire, it's burning away their oxygen.

[B]

That's so scary.

[A]

Leaving carbon monoxide, which is heavier, so it's sinking to where they're sleeping on the floor. And so anyway, it became. It's just so interesting to me at this folklore of a creature.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Killing you on the ground. They were just. Basically, they just came up with the a. With a different killer. It's like instead of it being carbon monoxide poisoning, it was the Tokalos.

[B]

Yeah. I feel like that's so fascinating about folklore, how it, like, intertwines with. I mean, that's. I guess when people study. When they. When they study folklore, it's just that's so interesting. And then, like, I mean, I imagine there are other reasons to have an elevated bed. I. You know, things like spiders come to mind. I don't know. I feel like anywhere. Yeah. I don't know. I just, just, I. I like a bed off the ground just in case. You never know.

[A]

Yeah. But I. It just, it was so interesting to me that, like, wow. They accidentally, like, it was for. For a secondary reason, but they. To elevate their own bed. They actually were saving themselves from. Now carbon monoxide poisoning.

[B]

Like a real killer. Yeah.

[A]

And it did. One of the reasons that the Tokolosh is now so heavily ingrained in the communities is because it has been used as a tool to inform their belief that sleeping on an elevated bed will keep you alive. And so this is a quote that. This. I'll just read the whole quote. This is a fascinating example of the use of folklore to create tangible changes in the lifestyles of people. The cre. The creature ultimately resulted in a positive impact on communities who believed in it. It has saved people from becoming ill and has prevented deaths, as well as indirectly educated children about the potential dangers of sleeping too close to a fire indoors.

[B]

That's incredible.

[A]

So anyway, I thought that was a cool way.

[B]

I mean, obviously it has its downsides with the. But like, that's really fascinating. Like, it's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So fascinating.

[A]

Anyway, that's the Tokolo.

[B]

Wow. Good story.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I heard a story last night that maybe you can cover at some point. I was listening to Spooked with Glenn Washington, and there was a story about these. These creatures that had. That were like, lights that were meant to distract you while you were in the woods, like on a path or whatever. So for a minute, when you said toggles, I was like, oh, God. If that's what I heard about last night, I'm gonna freak out and I'm never going to look at a tree again.

[A]

I'm writing it down right now. Creatures that are in the woods, they.

[B]

Like, are sort of, like, meant to, like, spin you around or get you lost or disorient you. You disappear. Yeah. And so people have said, like, oh, people disappear. I think I believe it was in India. And I need to figure out out exactly what part because it was a specific part, I think. But yeah, it was really, really creepy because this guy told a story of his grandfather experiencing them, the lights and. Ooh. It's just chilling.

[A]

That's awesome. Okay, I will check that out for sure.

[B]

Yes, it is worth looking at because I was, for a Minute. Really scared you were going to start talking about that. And then I was like, what does it mean? What does it mean? And then I think that's probably why I thought they were tall because creat fingers were tall. And I was like, it's so funny.

[A]

That the, the sound of something can feel the same in both our brains because I really, I think of like a tall, like branchy looking tall.

[B]

Like in the marsh. Yeah. With the togalosh, you know, Interesting. Something about that. Oh, oh, oh, here we are. Fire creature. Oh, so it's in the Himalayas. When you're lost in the. Okay. They don't say the name of it, but it's called Fire Creature. The episode of Spooked.

[A]

Okay, cool.

[B]

Fire Creature. But yeah, it's supposed to like. But it has a light like on its forehead. And so when you said like, oh, they branded, they put like a thing in its forehead. I was like, no, not the light in the forehead. Fire creature.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Different thing, I guess. Cool. Thank you. What a tale.

[A]

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[B]

Alrighty. So the story I have for you today is also pretty short and it's unfortunately not because it's like any easier to listen to or, or an easier pill to swallow. It's just that unfortunately it wasn't really covered that extensively and that I don't know if I if you remember, but a few months ago, it was probably like a year ago now, but Saoirse and I found this thread on Reddit or I, I found it and sent it to Saoirse and we've been kind of going back and forth and seeing similar threads of like, like cases that stick with people that haven't been as recognizable to other people, you know, that are like kind of under the radar haven't been given, like, enough of as much coverage as other cases have. And so I've done a few of those, quite a lot, I think, because they're all very compelling in that, like, nobody knows about this, you know. This one is one from one of these threads. It's the story of Lori Annelise Page. And I know we don't necessarily do like, trigger warning. This is a child, though. And so I do like to say that up front. And we'll get into that. She's a 12 year old girl. She was born in 2011. Her mother's name was Miranda White and her father is Andrew Wiley. She was a very studious girl. She was just. This story is just very. It's just a rough one. She was the kind of kid that being on time for her for school, as an example, being on time was so important that she would run from class to class to be like, in her seat by the time the bell ring.

[A]

Nerd.

[B]

I know, like, total nerd. She had really good grades. She worked really hard. She even like helped other kids with their homework when they were struggling. And her teachers, of course, like, took great notice of this. She was very well liked by everybody at school and got along with her classmates. Had, I guess, other nerdy friends like me back then. So she got along with her teachers and classmates and was well liked. But there were a couple instances that I don't would. I wouldn't say like, stand out necessarily. It's just the context of this story that, like, I guess it gives you a little more insight into her. But she was a child, so I don't know, she. She basically had to be moved to another classroom one time after developing a crush on a teacher. And she left him a note which read something like, do you like me circle yes or no? And like, it just makes me sad that that's even reported, you know, because it's like, that's just. It was just like a kid.

[A]

12 year old crush. Like a little kid.

[B]

No, and apparently she was so embarrassed when they like brought the note up and she said she didn't write it. And it's like, we've all been there, man. In other words, like any sort of trouble, quote, unquote. Because, like, let me just give you a little bit of a preface here. Some spoiler alert. There's a lot of like runaway talk, right? Okay. And there are some runaway instances that are going to happen. But I just kind of. We wanted to give you that backstory to just say, like, she was a normal kid. It wasn't like she had, like, a behavioral disorder and had the, and like, hated being at school.

[A]

You know, do people use that story about, like, the, do you like me as, like, a reason why she ran away? Like she was embarrassed?

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. That was more just like an example of, of this is the only kind of trouble she ever got into.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

Like, not real trouble, just like being a little kid and, you know, gotcha. Being a kid. She's a kid.

[A]

She's just a kid.

[B]

She's just a kid. So that was just kind of a background into her at school, you know, she, other than this little instance, she thrived, but at home it was a different story. We don't know much about Laurie's early childhood. She initially lived with her mother, Miranda, in Tennessee, and as a young child, she was in the custody of the Department of Children Families. But then when she was older, she did run away from home once. But, and this is like, again, this goes to show, like, she didn't like to miss school, so she didn't go very far. And then she came back because she wanted to go to school and didn't want to have absences on her report. I mean, it's like, little kid. Oh, I know. If Lori had any contact with her father at this time, it was very little when she was living up there in Tennessee. And according to Andrew, he did at one point live with Lori in Miami when she was 5 years old. But they, after age 5, she really didn't have any contact until 2022, when Lori is 11 years old and she travels from Tennessee to Florida to visit her dad. Then her mother says, you can't come home.

[A]

Oh, shit. Okay.

[B]

Like, essentially, I'm not taking her back in. You need to watch her. And like, I don't know too much of the context. She, she just said, I don't want custody anymore. I don't know if she was going through some sort of.

[A]

Yeah, it sounds like it.

[B]

I, I, I don't know the context. I really don't. But we do know that she basically said, okay, I want your father to now take custody of you. And so she moved in with her dad in Tallahassee, and he enrolled her in Griffin Middle School sixth grade class. I mean, being in sixth grade is already so hard. Like, it just breaks my heart. And as usual, she decided to pour herself into her schoolwork. Once, for example, some of Lori's classmates failed a difficult test in civics class, and students were allowed to do a poster Board project on the Bill of Rights. Rights to, like, raise their grade. And she did it even though she got an A on the test. She was that kid that we were all like, of course you did the bonus work without even needing the point.

[A]

She was the kid who, like, asked about homework at the end of every class.

[B]

She was a kid I was friends with but could never be like.

[A]

She was the girl I was like, no, please, please don't.

[B]

Don't say it. Don't raise your hand. Oh, my God. Asking about homework. But that was like, her. That's kind of a good kid. Yeah, a good kid. And in sixth grade, like, you're so little at that age. Her teacher, Margie Summers, called Laura. So she did this project, and her teacher said it was a work of art. Like, she put so much work into this, and she didn't even care that she couldn't do better than an A. She just wanted to participate.

[A]

Like, she just wants to learn.

[B]

She wants to learn. Her teacher suspected that she tried so hard in school because she didn't get very much attention at home and didn't, like, have much of a life outside of school. And although the adults in her life never knew much about her home life, they did know that she was very unhappy. Lori talked to her friends about being unhappy and lonely living at her dad's house. And then in May of 2022, she ran away again, this time from her dad's house in Tallahassee. And she hid out at an apartment complex near the pool, and her friends would bring her food because they knew where she was staying. Yeah, her teacher Margie said that this time they found her at school. She didn't want to miss class, so she showed up barefoot, like, during her runaway period. It's just like.

[A]

Like what? I mean, first of all, so sad, but also, what a juxtaposition to throw out a big word of, like, what a good kid who's also a. A runaway. But then it. Yeah, it really makes you wonder, like, well, why is the kid running away? Like, obviously this is a good kid.

[B]

Exactly. Like, kids aren't running away from. From safety, usually. Happy health, safe homes. I mean, I wouldn't say always necessarily, but I feel most of the time. Yeah, that gets overlooked. And then they're kids. I mean, so the school had to contact Andrew, her dad, and Lori was returned home, home. So that was in May of 2022. At the end of the month, end of May, Miranda, her mother called the Tallahassee police and requested a welfare check on Lori at Andrew's house. It's unclear how thorough the check in was, but Lori remained in her home with Andrew. And at home, Lori was super isolated. She didn't have a phone, she didn't use any social media, so she couldn't even like, talk to her friends. And this is 2022. Like this isn't, you know, years ago where you as a teenager, like, or preteen wouldn't have access. It's like now it's like current day. And so it does feel hard that, like a sixth grader has no connection to her friends outside of school. And it makes you just think, no wonder she liked being there and having her relationships there. So she spent a lot of time alone on the computer at her dad's house. She would watch YouTube videos and play Roblox. Her dad worked nights as a correctional officer. And so she was mostly unsupervised, like she just was there by herself. And they did have a neighbor named Terry Smith, and he used to look out for Lori because he had kids himself. And this was like a pretty safe and quiet cul de sac neighborhood. And it was pretty far out of the way from the main street. And so Terry would like, notice that Lori was just there alone all the time. And so, you know, he would just make sure she was okay. He would just keep an eye on her. And he started to notice that she was always wearing baggy clothes. She was never with other children, and she seemed uncomfortable just even being there, like even existing in this neighborhood. In early June, which was a week after her mother Miranda requested this welfare check, school was out for the summer and Lori had finished the sixth grade as an honor roll student, the only one in her math class to earn the top score on the state end of the year examination. And on the morning of June 3rd, Andrew came home from work to find his apartment empty and his daughter missing. Oh, he called the police. He reported her missing. He told police nothing seemed out of the ordinary. When he left for work on the evening of June 2, he said Lori's backpack was missing and she must have left home sometime overnight when he was at work. So Tallahassee PD posted a missing person's flyer to its Facebook page, including a photo of Lori, who was described as a five foot tall, dark skinned black female with shoulder length black dreadlocks. And people started sharing the post, although the Tallahassee PD said it would exhaust all options. That feels kind of like mumbo jumbo. The Special Victims Unit detective leading the case said they didn't suspect any foul Play. And she said everything is pointing to that she ran away voluntarily. So Detective Anna Drake urged any friends. And it is fair, I will say, like, if she has run away before, especially from this home. Yeah, yeah. Yes, I can understand that. Like, you'd think, well, most likely not most easiest or the most easiest. The easiest explanation is that she ran away again and it's summertime, you know, like, no school, she got bored at home.

[A]

You know, something.

[B]

Right, right. It makes sense in a way. So Detective Anna Drake urged any friends who might be helping Lori, like they did with the food at the apartment complex, to step forward and say, like, hey, we know where she is. She also stated that any adults who might be helping Lori Hyde would be committing a crime and they should return Lori home immediately. So authorities told Lori school to send missing person flyers home to all of Lori's classmates, parents. Basically, like, if. The idea being, if she's staying with a friend, and she said, oh, my dad's totally fine with it. And they didn't know, you know, that he. He had no clue where she was. But despite giving all these flyers out, nobody reported a single sighting of Lori. After days. Miranda did not believe her daughter would run away for so long. And she started to get really frustrated and ask for more intervention and action from the police. And Lori's teachers stepped in as well and said, we agree that something is wrong. Because 12 days after Lori disappeared, Margie Summers, the teacher from her school, reached out to a local pastor named Rudy Ferguson. And Rudy had never met Laurie, but he was a member of the community, and he felt like he had an obligation to her. So the two of them worked together, this teacher and this pastor to. From her neighborhood, from her area, to raise awareness about Lori and her disappearance. Sort of more like grassroots, you know, like we see in a lot of these cases. So they worked with radio host Patty Wilson to get Lori's name out there, get her story on air. And then 14 days after Lori disappeared, Margie and Rudy went on camera for the local news news. Rudy said he sent Lori's missing person flyers to more than 20 pastors in the Frontline Pastors Action Council, which the F. Pack, I don't know Council. He said it was their church's responsibility to be a voice in their communities. So of Lori, he said, we ought to be her family. We ought to look for her consistently until she is safe and sound. And I just love that because he'd never met this girl.

[A]

She's doing the right thing.

[B]

This person matters, and we need to find Her. Margie said that she hoped Lori would return to school. And there was summer school in session. And they began opening the doors Monday through Thursday for summer school. So they thought, oh, like, surely she'll come in on a Monday, right, because she's safe here and she knows she can trust the teachers and we will take care of her, whatever. But no, she never, she never shows. Margie remained worried that something had happened because it was unlike her to be gone for so long. But in case she was listening when on air, she said, lori, you're a great student and a great kid. There is nothing that you haven't done well enough. Just come back.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Just breaks my heart. And so the community is demanding from. Demanding more action from authorities in the search for Lori, especially as, like, this grassroots campaign is kind of the only thing, like getting the name out there. And detectives explained some of the hurdles they were facing in the case. And this is also like a really good point. Remember I said she didn't have any social media, right? And like, I guess detectives, which of course, but we don't often cover stories from like right now or, you know, a couple years ago. And so it's, it's interesting to hear, like, authorities said, hey, it's really hard to find a 12 year old kid who doesn't use any social media, you know. And so they did actually discover she had made like kind of secret accounts like on Reddit and stuff, but she never used them and then would just delete them. So they didn't offer any sort of clue. It wasn't like she was communicating with a friend or, you know, with some cases you hear like, oh, they made a friend online and like, didn't tell their parents, but there was nothing like that. There was no presence. She had no online presence at all. And so, and no phone. So it's like, how on earth are we gonna figure out where she was went. So detectives went to Lori's family to get more answers. Lori had been estranged from a lot of her family because her parents both had strained relationships with their families. So her extended family was like, not in very much contact with her. So her grandma or great grandfather were like, we really don't know what to do. We don't know where she could be. Rumors went around that Lori's mom might have taken her back without telling anyone or like, maybe secretly relocated her, but there was no evidence of this. And even after Detective subpoenaed all of Miranda's social media accounts, they found nothing to indicate she had done anything wrong. She did post and send messages about Lori's disappearance, but it was just, you know, trying to find her daughter. It wasn't anything suspicious. Miranda provided two Gmail accounts that belonged to Lori and Google provided email records for those and found that Lori exclusively communicated with her mom. So like she didn't even email with friends. Like she just used them to talk to her mom. And after her disappearance, there was not a single communication from her email. Oh, okay, that's gotta be a red flag. So some of Lori's family members said that Lori had felt neglected and unloved by her mother, which was why she might have run away in the past. And then some of Lori's classmates said, well, her life with her dad wasn't much better. One classmate said that Andrew often hit his daughter and once yelled at Lori and beat her with a belt. Belt at the school bus stop in front of the other children.

[A]

I would run away.

[B]

Like that's humiliating. I mean it's evil, it's abuse, it's rich.

[A]

If that's what he, if that's something he's not afraid to do publicly, what the hell's going on in the house?

[B]

Every time I hear something like that, I'm like, you know, that's just the surface like that you don't behave that way in public. And then not worse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Behind closed doors. I totally agree. I hadn't even thought of that. Oh, that just gave me shivers. So that is what the kids are telling the police. Like, hey, she's not having, like maybe she ran away from her mom in the past, but like her dad's. Her experience at her dad's is. No, is not much better. And the thing about the bus stop is just like so, so dark. Some of Lori's family members said she had experienced severe depression, feelings of worthlessness. She may have been capable of self harm. And so of course they're hearing that and they're thinking, well, now we have another angle to look at. You know, could she have been suicidal? And a social worker who once worked with Lori would later confirm that Lori had experienced suicidal thoughts and that she had described herself. This is so heartbreaking. She's 12 years old. She had described herself using words like evil, disrespectful and hateful. Which is like, you repeat that from what you hear. You know what I mean?

[A]

100%.

[B]

That's just so to describe yourself, like that's your self talk as a 12 year old.

[A]

And also, I mean, so I mean, I don't, I don't know. Obviously but if you add that level of self esteem, that lack of self esteem.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On top of like your mom literally just saying, I don't want you and I don't know, I'm like, did she have friends at school? It sounds like she was kind of. She kept it herself for the most part.

[B]

No, she had friends at school. She was in. She was definitely like, had solid and strong relationships at school, which is why she would always end up at school and try to avoid being home. So that really was the only place that she had like a community. But she did, she did have a community at school. And so it's just hard because it's like. And then she got cut off from the world, from that community at home.

[A]

Yeah. And like your mom not wanting you and your dad never being home. I mean.

[B]

Yeah, I want to clarify too. I don't know that like the mom didn't want her. I just know, like, hey, she gave custody fully to the dad to say, oh, right.

[A]

Something might have been going.

[B]

Unable to do custody. I don't know. I don't know. I just don't know more details on that. So I, I don't know that specifically. But yeah, I mean, it has to be hard. Like you've, either way, you've uprooted your life, you've moved to a new school and you're trying your best to like regain some footing and your dad's clearly harming you, abusing you, you're, you're lonely. I mean, it's just like a recipe for disaster. So she would use these words. A social worker told detectives that she would use words like evil, disrespectful, hateful to describe herself. And of course, none of her teachers or friends or classmates would ever use those words. So there was like a little bit of dissonance there. Detectives continued to consider Laurie a runaway, kind of now saying, okay, well this is clearly an abusive home and she ran away from an abusive home. And that's why she ran away. Which also I feel like is a fair assessment of the situation because it's happened in the past. But months passed and Margie Summers continued to champion the search for Lori. And she felt that Lori wasn't getting the attention she deserved. It's like a 12 year old girl, she's still missing and she's like, yeah, we gotta find her. Lori's mother was also angry that police didn't start doing grid searches or using dogs until months and even years after Lori disappeared. Rudy, Margie, teachers and other members of the community organized Searches, they did door to door canvases. Just a lot more of that grassroots kind of searching. And Margie continued to talk to the media to get Lori's name out there. In one interview, she said, lori's not going to disappear and doesn't matter. It matters to us. She's not going to disappear and us not do anything. So. One year after Lori disappeared, the Tallahassee Police Department told local reporters that they no longer use the word runaway on missing person flyers due to concerns that would make community members less likely to take disappearances seriously. And I'm like, thank God. Okay, hadn't even thought that.

[A]

But yeah, if you hear runaway, part of you thinks, well, they wanted to leave, so why go looking for them or something?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, run away. And it's like, well, they're probably just with a friend. Like, I feel like my. The implication of runaway is they took a backpack and went somewhere and they're just hiding out, you know, and, and of course, like, they're still kids, so they should still be be accounted for. And, but, but the wording, like, skews your perception of it, I think, like, in a way it, like, makes it seem less serious, even though it's still a minor who's missing, whether they ran away or not. And so anyway, I just found that really interesting. And one year after Lori disappeared would have been 2023. So that's a pretty recent development. So they decided that, you know, the designation was not. Not. Not only was it potentially harmful to the recovery process of missing persons, it was also not significant. It didn't matter. Like, it doesn't matter whether they ran away. We need to find them. So detectives continued to urge anyone with information to come forward to help find Lori. And then in January 2024, Miranda, Lori's mom, posted a Facebook. My baby is gone. Broken heart emoji.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

She deleted it it quickly. And when asked about the post, she said she felt in her soul that Lori was dead. Oh, and Lori had been missing for about a year and a half now. Police continued to canvas the neighborhood. They spoke to registered sex offenders in the area, and they just couldn't find any sort of lead as to who could have been involved in her disappearance, especially now that it's been a year and a half and there have been no activity on her email. There's been nothing. And so, you know, things are not looking good. Good. During the investigation, Andrew moved to Thomasville, Georgia. That's her dad, 45 minutes north of Tallahassee. And detectives asked him whether there Was anyone in his neighborhood back in Tallahassee that he thought might have harmed Lori? Like, is there anyone suspicious that knew she would be home alone, you know, to be overlooked?

[A]

That Terry guy or something?

[B]

Right, Exactly. Like that feels like something important. And Andrew couldn't really think of anyone. And this is also really sad. Had they asked like, oh, where would she hang out? Or like, who are her friends? And he was like, I have no idea. Like, you know, he had no clue. Yeah, where she wanted to go, where she liked to hang out. He didn't really know anything about her at all. And it's just really heartbreaking. So now we're all the way. In February of 2024, a 5 mile grid search of the area where Lori was last seen created no leads. So police searched the area with cadaver dogs and divers search nearby bodies of water. Nothing. Nothing, nothing. The FBI and the Tallahassee Police department then began a billboard campaign advertising a fifteen thousand dollar reward in the search for Lori. Then we're in. Late February 2024, Tallahassee police worked with the Thomasville authorities. Thomasville is where Andrew moved 45 minutes north or 45 miles, 45 minutes north of Tallahassee. And so Tallahassee police reached out to Thomasville police and they executed a search warrant at Andrew's house. They also seized and processed Andrew's vehicle and they found blood on the carpet.

[A]

Oh, okay. Wow.

[B]

The blood was confirmed in laboratory testing to belong to his daughter Lori. They also found a handgun in the vehicle and a spray bottle containing a cleaner with a label that advertised its, its specific ability to clean and remove blood. Man, why did he still have that in his car?

[A]

Yeah, I'm like, first of all not to like, rookie mistake.

[B]

Like, like, why the are you leaving that in your car?

[A]

You got this far and you're gonna, that's what you're gonna get busted on.

[B]

Hell, how stupid can people be? I mean, that's just sick. So they did confirm it was her blood and clearly he had bought specific blood. Removing cleaning supplies. They of course then seized his electronic devices. And some of the devices had been wiped clean or even dismantled. And he'd recently replaced his computer and they couldn't find it anywhere. So on the devices that they were able to recover, thankfully investigators found that on June 1, 2022, two days before Andrew reported Lori missing. Two days before he reported her missing, he searched online, quote, bad neighborhood, Tallahassee, Florida, of course, Apalachicola National Forest, dead body. And this. Where do police look to find missing kids?

[A]

Jesus, Christ. Guilty as sin. Oh my God.

[B]

He is sin. He also visited a Quora page, which is like that. That kind of wiki. How adjacent like you like, ask questions on Quora. And a user asked, why would police stop looking for a missing child, saying the delay of the search is based on where they are in the investigation, comma, wouldn't they still need to find the child? Like, I don't even quite know what that.

[A]

Me either. But also like, what a specific. Like, exactly so specific. And yet I. I don't understand at all.

[B]

It's like that's damning. I don't even know what it means.

[A]

Damning.

[B]

Damning. Coming. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So Andrew also searched for driving directions to several bodies of water in Georgia and Alabama. And then detectives were able to thankfully use pings on cellular towers. They were able to track Andrew's phone on the date, like his movements on the day of June 2, 2022. He had traveled to a rural wooded area in Thomas County, Georgia, on a plantation where people went to hunt quail. And that same day. Weird. He purchased a one way ticket from Florida to Puerto Rico.

[A]

Girl, come on.

[B]

As I know, as if he intended to leave the country, but police. He didn't. Obviously. He moved 45 minutes north. But anyway, okay. That same day he purchased a ticket. Police searched that wooded area in Georgia extensively with cadaver dogs, but they found nothing. But in April, there was a prescribed burn of the area for. For ecological management. Like. Like they. They intentionally set a controlled blaze to. Yeah. So after this kind of monitored burn, the fire cleared the brush in the area and revealed human skeletal remains. Yeah. Finally they were able to locate the body of Lori page. It was April 11, 2024. Police reported that Lori's remains were discovered within 30 meters, or 98ft approximately, of where Andrew's cell phone pinged on June. In June of 2022. So obviously it's him. He's arrested. He's charged with second degree murder in connection with Lori's death. But before he could stand trial, he died in June 2025, like a couple months ago, of a pulmonary embolism. At only 36 years old.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Yeah, I guess so. And Andrew's brother. I don't know how pulmonary embolisms work, but Andrew's brother said that he maintained his innocence to his death. Margie, the teacher, was in shock, of course, when she found out Laurie had passed. She said, I still just think she's alive and I want to go find her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then she said the words Laurie and remains just don't go together at all. And it's. That's just shattering. Rudy Ferguson, the pastor who had, like, spearheaded the effort to find her, had held on to hope that she'd be discovered somewhere unexpected, safe and sound. But, of course, the truth was so much worse. They did hold a memorial service to honor her life. And Rudy said, we want to make sure that her memory doesn't stay there in the woods. That can't be her resting. And last place, more than a hundred adults and children gathered to remember Lori. Which, just, like, speaking of juxtaposing, you know, that against her, like, empty email account. No, like, social media.

[A]

Like, only texting her mom.

[B]

Yeah, it just. Yeah, it's just really. It's just really poignant and hard. So her mother, who remained very private throughout the search, did not attend, but she sent a statement to be read by one of the memorial organizers. And the statement said, we honor Lori by carrying forward her light, choosing compassion over despair, and holding each other with the same warmth that she gave to us so freely. And I was like, damn this. It's like you hear of just, like, such a beautiful, sensitive, like, soul, you.

[A]

Know, who just wanted to do good and just wanted to be around community and just wanted to work hard, and.

[B]

It'S like the ultimate just slap in the face by the universe, you know? It just feels like existential dread. I don't know, man. Anyway, so we never.

[A]

Because he always claimed innocence. We don't. We have no reason for why he even did it. Allegedly.

[B]

No, I just. Allegedly? Yeah, It's. He was arrested for it. Died before being put on trial. So I guess innocent until proven guilty. It just sure doesn't look good. And he was an abuser, so it's like, who knows why? I don't think that we could probably ever find a real reason. It sounds like she was already. He was already beating her, you know, harming her physically.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just sick. Anyway, so that's my day. My way to ruin your day and my own day.

[A]

Oh, ruined. Thanks.

[B]

Yeah. Thanks, everybody, for listening to another episode of and that's why We Drink. Sorry to bum you out. I will continue to bring up uncomfortable topics in our happy hour as I show you really, really haunted photos of dead people.

[A]

So I'm excited to try to figure out a crime or ooh and ah, whichever you prefer.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

Figure out a crime. Figure out just who's.

[B]

Like, I don't think I'm gonna be offering.

[A]

If I do figure out a crime about them. That would be juicy.

[B]

I was gonna say that's a really high expectation of the random batch of photos I have. But you never know.

[A]

You never know. There is a photo somewhere of someone who's involved in a crime, a mystery and that. And I. And I could be the lead detective on that. Starting today. We'll find out.

[B]

And you've always said that.

[A]

I've always said that. And that's why we drink.