E454 Graveyard Kids and Barney Scandals

Summary

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Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink

Episode E454: "Graveyard Kids and Barney Scandals"

Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Release Date: October 19, 2025

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Overview

In this lively pre-Halloween episode, Christine and Em blend banter, nostalgia, and signature spooky vibes while exploring the intersection of childhood memories and the paranormal. The episode's highlights include Em's infamous "Barney scandal," a deep dive into activities and games one can do in graveyards, and the mysterious case of the Brock candy heiress' disappearance. The camaraderie and comic timing between the hosts, their reflections on family, and the inventive Halloween energy make this episode stand out as a delightful, thematic listen.

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1. Opening Banter & Millennial Spaces [02:51–11:12]

• Christine and Em discuss their podcast recording setups and accidentally discover their walls are painted the same millennial shade of dark green.
  • [07:24] Em: “I can just hear Gen Z calling us the most obvious millennials.”
  • [08:07] Christine plugs Claire Paints, noting the color is called "Current Mood" and was popular among millennials in 2020.
• Christine admits to overthinking her space and taking pride in her decorative choices, while Em dreams of a colorful, retro-futuristic, Dr. Seuss-inspired décor.
• Discussion on setting up a studio feel and matching their screens for YouTube's sake, revealing their dynamic as self-deprecating, creative, and deeply in tune with millennial trends.

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2. Party Planning Chaos & Em’s Barney Scandal [11:12–29:48]

• Christine shares the stress and absurdity of planning a kid's birthday party (Gabby’s Dollhouse theme, Dino Ranch mix-up), complete with anecdotes about her mother-in-law's helpfulness.
  • [13:22] Em: "Well, I've told you about the Barney fiasco of '95..."
• Em launches into the legendary 'Barney scandal':
  • As a child, Em was so obsessed with Barney that they refused to respond to their own name, called their mother "Baby Bop," and forced everyone into their Barney narrative. [14:38]
  • For Em's 3rd birthday in San Francisco, their mother arranged for "Barney" to attend. Em grew up bragging about having the “real Barney,” only to discover as a teen that it was an imposter in a saggy costume. Em’s mom kept up the ruse until high school graduation, even hiring a new, much-worse Barney costume to make up for it. [19:03, 22:01]
  • Notable quote: [14:48] Em: “I thought I was Barney. It wasn’t a silly little thing. It became a mental disorder.”
  • “I refuse to go by my own name... I did not call my mom 'mom.' She was Baby Bop.” [14:52]
• Christine compares her more restrained birthday parties, shares her own parent struggles and kid expectations (theme mixups), and appreciates the delightful absurdity of Em's Barney story.
• Lively exchange about the pressures of millennial parenting and generational birthday party one-upping.

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3. Why Do They Drink? Life Updates [29:45–33:14]

• Christine drinks “Mini DPepp” ahead of the kid party.
  • [29:45] Em: “What do you drink a D. Pepe and why?”
  • Christine: “Because I’m hosting a party of children tomorrow… Gabby’s Dollhouse party with a few Dino Ranch characters sprinkled throughout.”
• Em shares their exhaustion after back-to-back red-eye flights and celebratory updates on their dog Hankie finally behaving at home alone.
  • [32:40] Em: “Yesterday was the first day we didn’t hide anything... four hours, and nothing had been touched!”

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4. Paranormal Cold Open: Welcome to Crabby Grove [33:14–37:15]

• Christine delivers a tongue-in-cheek ghost story ad spot about haunted orchards (“Crabby Grove”) and supernatural cider, complete with spectral farmhands, as a segue into the episode’s Halloween theme.
  • [35:55] Christine: “The ghostly farmers approach, holding a glowing bottle... with the label Angry Orchard.”
  • Em weaves in dyke/farmer jokes and spooky-flavored youth nostalgia.

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5. Main Topics

A. "Graveyard Games & Activities" with Christine & Em [39:10–84:35]

Christine’s Halloween Wish: Graveyard games and activities to play in a cemetery—leaning into her childhood as a “graveyard kid.”

[Intro to "Graveyard Kids"]

• [39:16] Christine: “Games and graveyards... Graveyard games.”
• [40:05] Em: “I just always call you Wednesday Addams. But you really did grow up in a graveyard.”

[Childhood Graveyard Memories]

• Christine recalls growing up beside a graveyard, using it as a film set for home movies, and describes playing hide-and-seek, Ouija boards, and having moody rain-listening sessions as a "Wednesday Addams"-type kid. [40:05–41:46]
• Christine relates a recent incident where both she and daughter Leona were inexplicably drawn to the same child’s grave, sharing a moving story about repairs and a possible synchronicity. [48:22–51:25]

[Graveyard Games Explained & Expanded]

• Discussion of "Ghost in the Graveyard," alternate games, and “graveyard” as the silent game. [44:06–47:29]
• Christine and Em riff on:
  • Doing scavenger hunts (find the oldest grave, strangest name, couples buried together).
  • Playing Ouija boards (Em: “You know how I feel about Ouija boards…”)
  • Grave rubbings (with a warning to protect old stones).
  • Picnics in cemeteries, connecting to their historical role as community parks. [57:43–59:32]
  • Geocaching and "find the treasure."
  • Respectful activities: trash pickup, bee hotels, pollinator stations, painted rocks, wind chimes, learning flower and symbol meanings.
  • Making up dances, performances for the graves, and creative "kid" activities (bingo, scavenger hunts, art projects).
  • "Horoscopes for the dead": Reading graves for birthdays, compatibility, and running with the “true crime/psychic” TV trope as a possible TikTok collab. [79:48–87:21]
  • Notable quote: [44:02] Em: “I would have called you [graveyard kid]. Especially if we went to the same high school."
• Christine notes the social context, rules of respect, and family grief/closure dimensions.

[Symbolism & Grave Knowledge]

• Em quizzes Christine on gravestone shapes and symbolism (lions, doves, roosters, dragon, etc.), leading to a humorous and educational fact-off.
• Correction of “horse code” (raised hooves on statues) via Snopes. [69:36–70:56]
• Top gravestone symbols: angel, dove, cross.

[Meta-Commentary]

• Self-aware about content length: [29:34] Christine: “We started this podcast thinking it’d be so short... And then here we go.”

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B. True Crime Segment: The Disappearance of Brock Candy Heiress – Helen Brock [90:40–128:14]

Christine’s Halloween request from Em: A “candy murder.”

[The Case]

• Helen Brock: Heiress to the Brock's Candy fortune (makers of candy corn, caramels, etc.), vanished in 1977 at age 65.
  • [92:03] “They make the candy corn. And they make candy hearts, too.”
• Helen was last seen by a hotel clerk; her chauffeur, Jack Matlick, claims to have picked her up at O'Hare and spent four days together, but evidence (cleaning, unusual activities, check cashing, visits to her safe deposit box) casts suspicion.
  • [105:29] “He scrubbed down the maid's quarters… ordered a meat grinder attachment… detailed one Cadillac…”
  • Forensic analysis determined checks from “Helen” were not in her handwriting, nor Matlick’s.
• Horse Mafia Angle:
  • Helen, an animal lover, was conned out of nearly $100,000 by Richard Bailey (a con man selling bad racehorses to wealthy women).
  • Upon discovering the scam, Helen reportedly confronted Bailey and threatened exposure.
  • Journalist James Ylisela’s book (“Who Killed the Candy Lady?”) explores whether Helen uncovered a broader horse insurance fraud ring and was silenced for it.
  • One witness claimed she was killed and cremated in an Indiana steel furnace at the behest of “mafia-like” horse dealer Silas Jayne.
• No body was ever found.
  • Memorial monument in Ohio; Helen’s dogs Candy and Sugar are buried there.
• No resolution:
  • Matlick was never charged; died in 2011.
  • Bailey got 30 years for racketeering, released 2019, maintained innocence, died 2022.
• Notable quote:
  • [103:23] Christine: “Here we go. And it's like I did it on purpose, but not really. It's like you suggested it and I found it, and it was perfect.”

[Speculation]

• Podcast hosts puzzle over whether the chauffeur or the “horse mafia” is the likeliest killer, swapping theories (dubbed "Occam's Razor" vs. "Horse Code") and drawing dry humor from the noir-adjacent story beats.
  • [120:16] Em: “He just happens to walk in as the dead body is laying on the floor, and he's like, 'I want my horse money.'”

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6. Notable Quotes & Moments

• [14:48] Em, on Barney obsession: “I refuse to go by my own name. I did not call my mom ‘mom.’ She was Baby Bop.”
• [44:34] Em: “I would have called you 'graveyard kid,' especially if we went to the same high school.”
• [69:36] Christine, reading from Snopes: “The hoof code mostly holds true in Gettysburg, but quickly disproved elsewhere."
• [94:58] Christine: “I just refuse to be that lid for your pot.”
• [120:16] Em: “The zebra is fully naked. Murphy’s law did not apply.”

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7. Timestamps for Key Segments

• [11:12] Christine’s Party Planning & Dino Ranch vs. Gabby’s Dollhouse
• [13:22] Em’s "Barney Scandal"
• [33:14] Christine’s Ghost Story Ad Read
• [39:10] Graveyard Kids and Games
• [48:22] Christine & Leona’s Synchronicity in the Cemetery
• [53:06] Discussion: Cemetery vs. Graveyard
• [57:43] Historical Role of Cemeteries
• [69:36] Debunking “Horse Code” & Symbolism
• [90:40] The Disappearance of Helen Brock (True Crime Story)
• [120:16] Final Theorizing about the Brock case
• [128:14] Next Week’s Halloween Episode Teasers

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8. Tone & Language

• Language is friendly, irreverent, nostalgic and witty.
• The hosts’ tone switches seamlessly between sincere (stories about family, parenthood, loss) and playfully satirical (mocking their own millennial quirks, “horse mafia” jokes, the folly of Barney costumes).
• Banter and pop culture references abound—from Dr. Seuss and Kelly Clarkson to TikTok trends and Law & Order phraseology.
• Sensitive to respectful treatment of cemeteries, witchcraft customs, and the victims in true crime stories.

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9. Closing & Upcoming Topics

• Halloween Episode Teaser:
  • Christine tasks Em: “Haunted home” stories or ghosts living alongside the living.
  • Em assigns “Costume” as a keyword for Christine’s next true crime hunt.
• Quip about running late for a meeting.

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For Listeners Who Missed It:

This episode is the perfect blend of comfort-listening and pre-Halloween mischief. You’ll hear wild family stories, genuinely creative Halloween activity ideas, millennial reflections, and a true crime mystery worthy of its own Dateline special—plus, plenty of candied wit for spooky season.

Transcript

[Em]

Emmy Award winner Kerry Washington returns as Dr. Virginia Edwards in Audible's heart pounding supernatural thriller the Prophecy Season 2 also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Dulay Hill, Renzi Feliz and Ebony Obsidian. The battle between good and evil reaches new heights in this action packed sequel that pits faith against fear and pushes the fate of humankind to the edge. Follow every twist and turn as Virginia and her miracle son Joshua flee from Detroit pursued by the sinister Luther Bell, played by Giancarlo Esposito and and his morning stars cult. You know how I feel about a cult. Very intriguing with her estranged husband Ryan and Moses, played by Julia Hill, a devotee with a mysterious past, Virginia finds unlikely allies in Samson and Delilah. Together they uncover the truth about Joshua's place in an ancient prophecy and each perilous step of their journey is guided by Virginia's haunting visions. While Bell's forces close in, threatening to tear tear their world apart as natural disasters erupt, Virginia must embrace her role as both mother and chosen protector. But will it be too late? Evil is rising and time is running out. Do not miss Kerry Washington and Audible's new must listen the Prophecy season two. Go to audible.com prophecy2. That's the number two. And start listening today.

[Christine]

From best selling author Wendy Walker comes a gripping new psychological thriller with a spectacular twist. Three friends, two timelines, one deadly truth. Don't miss Walker's new Audible original the Room Next Door, a tightly crafted, ever twisting mystery told from three points of view. Starring acclaimed narrator and fan favorite Julia Whelan alongside Elizabeth Evans and Bebe Wood. They were best friends forever until the night one of them disappeared in 2010, Brooke Lowry, Keri Hollis and Eve Shea were inseparable. But on the 4th of July, Eve vanished and her case was never solved. Brooke moved away but Carrie couldn't let go, her obsession driving her to become Chief of police. Now 15 years later, just as Carrie is about to close Eve's case for good, an anonymous call provides a chilling new lead and within days a man's body is hauled in by a fishing boat. His murder is linked to a hotel a few miles away where the guest in the room next door was none other than Brooke Lowry. As Carrie digs deeper into both cases, Brooke scrambles to cover her tracks and Eve's voice begins to rise from the past. Together, their stories unravel a web of lies, betrayals and long buried secrets that lead to the shocking truth of what happened to Eve Shea. But brilliantly weaving scripted scenes with dialogue within traditional narration Wendy Walker's the Room Next Door is a deeply immersive, richly complex, nail biting thriller. Follow every step and misstep. Brooke, Carrie and Eve take don't miss Wendy Walker's new Audible original the Room Next door. Go to audible.com the roomnextdoor and start listening today.

[Em]

Welcome to another rousing episode of and that's why I Drink where compared to Christine's camera, I have the biggest head in the world.

[Christine]

Okay, look, you're.

[Em]

Look, you're my eyeballs. The size of your head.

[Christine]

Okay, I was thinking that. Now here's what happened. I. I thought to myself, I want to set up. What I want to set up really is like an actual recording, like, space where, you know, you see like the, the podcasters on social media where they have like, they're in like a studio or they have something nice. And I was like, what if I set up like a section for myself where, like, even when I'm doing virtual with you with my brother, it'll still look like I'm in like a little studio. And then like, yeah, you know, and so I try. I was like, oh, I gotta work on that. I don't have time right now. I've been trying to clear stuff out, but. So I set up like a camera. But now then I realize, like, oh, but now when people watch us on YouTube, they're looking like, at you and they're looking like, toward me. And I'm not making eye contact with them.

[Em]

Not anymore. Babe. Hang on, wait.

[Christine]

Oh, shit. Yeah, but see, you have to read your notes, don't you?

[Em]

Now I'll just talk like we're like, now you face this way. Now it's like we're.

[Christine]

See, that's like, that's what I mean. Like, wouldn't it be cool if we both had like a little like, where it looked like we were kind of talking to each other, even though it'd be hysterical.

[Em]

Anyway, anyway, I. If this makes you feel safer, I can do this.

[Christine]

But I mean, I just worry. I love.

[Em]

It doesn't look like a studio. It still looks like I'm sitting at a shiplak building. But I also. Hang on. Here, I'll get a little corner action. You ready? Hang on.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh. See? Like me. Look.

[Em]

Why do we have the same wall color?

[Christine]

Did we know this?

[Em]

Is this the first time I've ever seen this in my whole life?

[Christine]

Do we understand?

[Em]

Christine, wait. We should flip the camera and it will literally look like we are in the same room.

[Christine]

Hell, this is what it took to get us to look like. Hold on, let me move him. Oh, wait. No, wait. Now I gotta reverse.

[Em]

Wait, no, no, it looks good on mine. No.

[Christine]

Oh, mine's opposite.

[Em]

Oh, hang on. But then I'm this way.

[Christine]

Okay. I think maybe we have differing.

[Em]

The lighting was different. The lighting. We just have to match the lighting. Like that. No.

[Christine]

So. Oh, so we're looking like we're. I thought we were trying to get the walls to be together. Like two green walls.

[Em]

Yeah, that. But that's how they look on my screen.

[Christine]

Oh, that's how it looks on yours.

[Em]

It looks great.

[Christine]

Why do they make it look different on mine? So. Okay.

[Em]

Well, it literally looks like we're in the same room. If I push the camera right there. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

I hope that's okay. Wait, I'm gonna flip it for the people who see it my way. I'm worried that, like, what if everyone sees it? Hold on. How do I. Mirror. Oh, that didn't help. Did I flip?

[Em]

Nope.

[Christine]

The fuck.

[Em]

I'm telling you. For my end.

[Christine]

Oh, wait. I just realized I flipped my camera. My camera's up there, you idiot. I'm talking to myself. Seriously, Cristine, Sometimes I wonder.

[Em]

I'm not kidding.

[Christine]

I just switched the camera.

[Em]

We literally just figured out that our walls are the same exact fucking color.

[Christine]

That's very strange. How did you not know that? And we even have a corner where it's the color and then, like, a white color.

[Em]

You realize if I just.

[Christine]

Paper.

[Em]

If I just put that exact wallpaper on my shiplap, it would look like we just were, like, centered.

[Christine]

Trippy, man.

[Em]

I did not see this happening for us at all.

[Christine]

I didn't see this coming. I will say. I'll also say that I would say I would wish I could see it the way that you see it. Let me flip here.

[Em]

Well, then I'll just. I'll just. Screenshot, dude.

[Christine]

Oh, good idea. I wish I could see with your eyes. You know what I mean?

[Em]

But you need the eyes to see.

[Christine]

That's so true. Okay, remove from stage. Don't do that. Hey, hey. Kick from. I'm sorry. It says kick from studio. That feels really aggressive.

[Em]

Yeah. No.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. It looks way cooler on yours. Mine. I mean, mine looks cool, too. It just looks like we match walls.

[Em]

Yeah. We'll have to shop it. But this is a good rough draft.

[Christine]

I like it, though, because, like. Is this where you would like to stay doing your.

[Em]

No, but I mean, I. I mean, yes. I just have to get a different arm for my microphone because it's currently it's been tabletop and now the table's over microphone.

[Christine]

That makes it so confusing. Like in this picture I sent, it looks like our wall color really is like, I don't know.

[Em]

Is that not the eeriest thing in.

[Christine]

The whole world creeping me out? Yeah. Everyone's like, that's not that weird. But I think it's weird, okay?

[Em]

I mean, I can just hear the Gen Z calling us like the most obvious millennials.

[Christine]

Millennial. With like our dark green and like.

[Em]

Well, because, you know, there was millennial gray. And then a bunch of millennials got all up and nasty about it being like, I'm different. And then they all picked the exact same shade of green, which I will just to keep myself feeling young. I'm gonna say this was the last person who lived here. I did not choose this, okay?

[Christine]

This was also the last person that lived here. And by that I mean me. Five years ago, pre Covid or during the start of COVID me picked this, okay? I was struggling. We were all struggling. And then I bought this entirely way too expensive wallpaper from anthropology, of all things. And then I was like, well, I think it's there forever because it was.

[Em]

Really expensive and I don't want to change it.

[Christine]

But this paint I bought from Claire Paints, by the way, back in the day, it's a. It's a black owned, black woman owned business. And their paints are so beautiful. This one was called Current Mood or is called Current Mood. And I remember buying it like 2020 and going like, this is my current mood. And I think a lot of millennials felt the same way. So I haters going to hate whatever.

[Em]

I have nothing to contribute because I was not responsible for the shiplap. I was not responsible for the color. I just.

[Christine]

You have an easy out. I'm defense. I'm feeling defensive. Don't worry, you don't need to feel defensive.

[Em]

If you're up to me, this place would be a completely different color. I don't even know what it would be.

[Christine]

What color?

[Em]

I don't know. Because I'm too scared of my own brain. Because I love and I promise I'm not like trying to fit in with the younger generation. I just love their little style where everything's just like bursts of fucking colors and crazy shapes. I think that's so cool. And so I would probably have like the Dr. Seuss syndrome where like, there's nothing's a straight line, everything's weird and wacky and wonky and oh my God.

[Christine]

Okay. I kind of love that. But you also really like the mid century. Not mid century, the. What is it called?

[Em]

Retro futurism.

[Christine]

Yeah. So I feel like that fits really well, though, like, with the art deco, kind of, like, retro, like, curvy. I don't know. I feel like that kind of neonish. Like, I feel like that kind of matches. But, yeah, so eventually I do want to have, like. But m. If it is really distracting when I'm talking to you.

[Em]

No, it's not. I was just joking.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

It's fine.

[Christine]

No, no, I. I said it first. You didn't even say it. I just am projecting my own concerns onto you.

[Em]

Good.

[Christine]

So. Okay, good, good. So we'll try it. If everyone freaks out. I'm sorry. And I'm sorry about my walls. I'm sorry about me as a person and my identity. I don't know what to tell you except sorry.

[Em]

Also, don't judge all of my tabs, because I feel like later you're gonna zoom in on this now I will. I mean, it's just a lot of, like, home decor stuff, so it's not.

[Christine]

Very interesting, but it's like how to do. How to copy Christine's office in my house.

[Em]

Imagine if you looked at the little tabs, and it's actually just pictures of you all over.

[Christine]

What if it was, like, my wallpaper and my. Yeah, you were, like, typing Claire paints. No, I'm just teasing. But, yeah, I guess I was in the millennial spirits when I developed this room. But, you know, I do want to change it eventually. And I don't know. We'll figure it out, but. So this is me slowly adjusting to having a camera and doing that whole thing.

[Em]

Cool.

[Christine]

We'll see what happens.

[Em]

I'm also down to get my own actual camera, too, because we did that for a while. We have the camera. We did.

[Christine]

And now it's easy because you don't have to record on the camera. Like, I just. Like. There's a cam link that my brother sent me that I just plug into the laptop, and it just uses that camera as my webcam, so it doesn't, like, you don't need, like, a memory card in the camera.

[Em]

Nice. Nice.

[Christine]

You know what I mean? So it's a lot easier now than it was like, when we tried it five years ago. And in case you're wondering, I'm drinking a deep. A mini dpep.

[Em]

Nice.

[Christine]

Crack that bad boy open. And I drink because I'm throwing a party for a bunch of little kids tomorrow.

[Em]

So how much do you how much, what percentage have you gotten done and what do you have left?

[Christine]

Well, my mother in law is downstairs, so I, I assume probably 99 has been completed because that woman, she just showed up. She literally showed up at midnight. Landed at midnight. She didn't show up at midnight. Sorry, that sounded really ominous.

[Em]

At the crack of a lightning bolt.

[Christine]

Yeah, we set a spell into the fireplace. She showed up last night and at like 6am up, everybody's up everybody's. She's like cleaning the house, getting Leona ready for school and taking her there. It was just really nice. So I feel a lot calmer than I normally do right before party. And I also tried to tone it down this year for, for myself. Like, I didn't want to put too much pressure because I feel like I just. It gives me so much stress every year and I'm like, why do I do this? And this year I'm like, you know what, Just roll with it, see what happens. Bought the, bought the decorations and the food and plates and can confirm.

[Em]

My mom used to be one of those moms who like really, absolutely lost her mind trying to make it the perfect. I mean, literally for like my fourth or fifth birthday party. She literally got a, like pony rides. Like she was like trying.

[Christine]

Oh my word.

[Em]

Yeah, she was really trying to do it up. Don't remember a thing. So.

[Christine]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, now there's all this evidence, right? Yeah, now there's be like, now I could be like. Remember I was saying I've rented out. We just recorded that yesterday. But like I. We were the only ones in the theater. And I was like, this is hilarious because the tickets, it was like a matinee of Gabby's Dollhouse. So the tickets were like 10 bucks or something each and then. And less for the kids. And then I was like, imagine we spend like 440 bucks on all this and say like, oh, we rented out an entire movie theater for you and your best friend. Which like obviously is.

[Em]

It's only because if she listens to this episode one day, then it's. Other than that, there is no evidence. You just have to burn this episode.

[Christine]

Listen, I don't want to be, I don't want to set expectations that high. I feel like that'll be a card I hold on to if she ever like, needs me to prove like that I, I threw her a really cool party or something.

[Em]

Well, I've told you about the, the Barney fiasco of 95.

[Christine]

Okay. I feel like you have and I feel like I've put it away in a place in my brain that's hard to access. And I'd love for all of us to hear it again, if you don't mind.

[Em]

Yeah, and I'll find the picture too. Actually, I could. Let me find the picture right now. Because if you recall, I uploaded every single picture from my. From my memory box.

[Christine]

I think we recall the process, the journey, the emotional toll it took. It was.

[Em]

It was a long journey. So let me take advantage of it right fucking now. So as I'm looking for this story, I'll tell you. It was my third birthday. We lived in San Francisco at the time. Found it immediately. I'm so glad I downloaded all these fucking pictures.

[Christine]

Genius.

[Em]

So I. We lived in San Francisco. We lived right next to like MGM studio or something like that or. And that was where Barney was filmed. And if you were a kid in 95, it was the coolest thing in the world to be like, oh yeah, I live like where Barney works. It's no big deal.

[Christine]

And if you are mistaken and the coolness of that.

[Em]

I had a psychological disorder when I was a kid with how much I loved Barney. I think all of us had like that like mob mentality about Barney. Like it's like Swifties today. But it was Barney then where for a year, like really, I should have gone to a doctor.

[Christine]

I mean this really is. Is alarming, you guys.

[Em]

I refuse to go by my own name, which might have been assigned for something else later.

[Christine]

Honestly. Great fucking point. Great.

[Em]

But I. I would not respond to anything except Barney. I did not call my mom. Mom. She was Baby Bop.

[Christine]

I did not call my dad. It's not a joke. Like that's literally like M's lifestyle for like I'm committed to the bit so hard. It became a mental disorder.

[Em]

It wasn't a silly little thing. I thought I was Barney. It was.

[Christine]

At what point do you think your mom got like genuinely worried? And I asked that as a parent. Cuz I'm like, yeah, I haven't experienced that yet. But I imagine if it. It happened, I would get Blaze and I would really start to be like, do we like after a month, like, do we. What do we do?

[Em]

Linda waited a year and did nothing. So I think even.

[Christine]

What was her name? Baby Bop.

[Em]

Baby Bop. Yeah. Baby Bop did zilch.

[Christine]

So that's crazy to me that you. I mean that you not only had. Not to call you crazy as a.

[Em]

No, no. It was, it was bonkers anyway.

[Christine]

But like it feels like so fitting, right? Like you fixated on it. And you didn't like your own name. And there you go.

[Em]

My parents always thought that I would end up with a man named Barney and just run away and they never see me again. Lol.

[Christine]

In a lot of ways, I'm. I literally remember you telling me this. And I was like, well, now you can do the thing like that Cher said of like, I'm Barney. I know Celine. Celine Dion, one of them.

[Em]

Well, it's like when Cher was like, I am a rich man.

[Christine]

I am a rich man. That's the one. But I am Barney.

[Em]

Well, so my first boyfriend, his name was Tristan. And on our very first date, he picked me up in his car, which happened to be a big ass like 10 passenger purple van that he named Barney. And my mom was like, here we go.

[Christine]

Your mom was like, I fucking foresaw this. In the stars. Oh my Lord.

[Em]

So anyway, this. This birthday party when I was turning three. And my mom, she.

[Christine]

Well, Barney was turning three, right? And so my mom saw baby was planning a big bash, she threw me.

[Em]

This big birthday party and I was obsessed with Barney. She was like, well, we live right next to the studios.

[Christine]

I don't think I know this.

[Em]

Oh, she was like, we're actually gonna have Barney come to your birthday party. We're gonna.

[Christine]

Holy.

[Em]

We're gonna call the studio. We're gonna have. Barney's gonna be here. And I rem. I don't remember if it was a surprise to me, but I remember sitting on the steps, there's video of it, which I could also actually probably put up because I do have access to that. And I'm sitting on the steps and I guess they like, Barney, like literally walked into our backyard. And my whole life, I mean, it was the best day of my life. My whole life. I would brag to people. I was like, oh my God. My mom had the real Barney come to my birthday. She had the real Barney there. The real Barney was there. And I guess that wasn't true. And my mom, my mom, she just hired someone with a fucking Barney costume. But because. And here's the thing, though. Apparently she was hoping this would be the one time birthday party wise, they're like, I just wouldn't remember and she could just get away with it. But I spent my whole life bragging to everyone that she did this and she didn't want to ever break my heart. So even at 18 years old, she was like, that's right. The real Barney came. The real.

[Christine]

My God.

[Em]

And she was gonna let me live this.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

For the rest of my life. Until I started going through old photos and I found these pictures and I went, what the fuck is this?

[Christine]

It was a lot easier to lie before cameras were invented, I tell you what.

[Em]

And I was like, what is happening here?

[Christine]

Oh, shit.

[Em]

And I was like, this isn't. That can't be. Because in my memory it is real Barney. Three year old Barney. Of course it was fucking Barney. And she went, I'm so sorry. I never wanted to tell you. Like I thought.

[Christine]

Oh, no, I never thought you'd find out this way.

[Em]

I thought I got rid of all the photos and I found. I guess I found them. But anyway, this is for you.

[Christine]

Please send it to me right now. I also. I definitely don't remember.

[Em]

This is me hugging the real Barney.

[Christine]

Of course it is. And we're all going to.

[Em]

His head is deflated.

[Christine]

I need to please just show this on the. Because I don't listen, I'm sure. Oh, my word in heaven. Oh, wait, wrong camera.

[Em]

It's nightmares. We'll put it. We'll obviously post them or put them in. Actually, Jack, if you.

[Christine]

Baby bop. Baby bop.

[Em]

There she is. Jack, if you just want to put this straight in the video, that's totally fine.

[Christine]

Okay, first of all, actually, Jack, I'll.

[Em]

Let me get the video clip. I'll send it to you and if you could put it like right here. Here's me seeing the real Barney. A baby bop.

[Christine]

Emily. Thank you.

[Em]

We're both unsure of the whole situation.

[Christine]

Well, you're not. You're fully sure. You're fully bought in.

[Em]

You're.

[Christine]

You've. So did you cry when you found out? Or were you mad at your mom? Or were you just like.

[Em]

Well, I found out the day before I was graduating high school.

[Christine]

Oh, you were still young. Oh, I thought this was like a recent discovery.

[Em]

No, I was like 17, 18, and so sad. Here's another picture of Jack that you can put in. So I really.

[Christine]

I know this picture. Yeah, I think.

[Em]

Yeah, I think you do.

[Christine]

I love this picture.

[Em]

So I found out the day before I was gonna graduate high school that I found these pictures because they were looking for pictures for my graduation party.

[Christine]

Talk about a scandal. And it's like most. It's like, of all family scandals, you found out that it wasn't the real Barney.

[Em]

I. I truly. I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe this happened. And basically I, like, I had a data. Not like a data process, as if this was a real trauma, but I.

[Christine]

Was like, I can't Believe it's like a traumatic incident as like to like, I don't know.

[Em]

Well, I just couldn't believe it. I was like, I've been telling everybody for 15 years.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's.

[Em]

And so I don't know how my mom pulled it off, but. So the next day I was gonna graduate and then have my graduation party. At the end of the day, my mom, last minute tried to like, make it up to me. And at my graduation party, decided. Decided to get another Barney impersonator.

[Christine]

Oh, she cannot be stopped, this woman.

[Em]

It's like she doubles down, but with 24 hours notice. First of all, the only way you can make it up to me is get real fucking Barney here in 24 hours or less.

[Christine]

Fair. I mean, but she really should have. She should have pulled that off, I.

[Em]

Think, to recreate pictures. She was like, we'll get you a better Barney. And then she got me a fucking worse Barney.

[Christine]

That's what I remember.

[Em]

He only has black fries. So this, this is Jackie.

[Christine]

Black Eyed Barney. He's like a black eyed kid.

[Em]

This was my graduation party. I mean, hello.

[Christine]

Okay, like, real talk. Is that like Linda or somebody in that costume? This feels like it's like your parent, your friend's parent.

[Em]

It was her best friend's husband. But here's the thing. Like nobody else, because this happened the night before. This is a picture of me 24 hours after finding out that the first Barney picture was awful.

[Christine]

I mean, we're gonna have to put these somewhere. But this is when I.

[Em]

When I.

[Christine]

Hilarious.

[Em]

The.

[Christine]

But his head's inflated all the way. The rest of him's kind of a little. Not.

[Em]

That's a great point.

[Christine]

You know, it's like she found kind of. If you combine the two, it might look realistic.

[Em]

But here's the thing, because we. This discovery just happened 24 hours ago between me and her. And then she tried to just get a Barney impersonator within 24 hours notice that basically, get this, I was having a whole ass graduation party of like 300 people and nobody knew the context of. He just fucking waltzes in.

[Christine]

Are you sure nobody knew? You didn't tell 300 of your classmates how many times you'd met the real.

[Em]

Barney when you were three? My mom was giving a graduation speech. Then all of a sudden I hear, I love you.

[Christine]

No. By the way, first of all, you're still processing. This is traumatic.

[Em]

She had someone just play it on like a speaker. And then this fuck ass Barney walks.

[Christine]

In and I'm so crazy. Baby bop fucking tone.

[Em]

It down.

[Christine]

This is a wildest story. I mean, to have, like, wow, that feels like me in the way that I would overnight something and just do it, like, to try and fix the problem. So I do in that way. What's happening to my computer, it's just, like, zooming me out.

[Em]

Oh, you look fine here.

[Christine]

Okay, well, yeah, I just feel like I can understand that. That instinct to just fix it. But, yeah, that is quite a bold move to do, especially for your teenage child. Like, your teenage one. They've grown up with one big like of classmates to bring up, like, something.

[Em]

Literally, like, in a. In a horror movie high school drama. I could hear everyone around me going, what's going on?

[Christine]

What? Like, do you get it? I don't get it. Yeah. I mean, really, it's got to be. Just half the reason I don't want.

[Em]

To get married is because she'll try again. I just like, oh, my God, you.

[Christine]

Know, now she will. Now I will. Now I think we're all on board.

[Em]

Everyone will just dress as Barney, and I'll be like, what's fucking happening?

[Christine]

I think it's going to be just. No one will. And you'll be just like, oh, phew. And then the officiant will walk out and you'll go, you know, and it. And this time, I promise, it will be the real Barney.

[Em]

Well, if Barney was the officiant, I'd be. I could get behind that.

[Christine]

What if you finally get to be. Yeah, well, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. But what would you. What about if you got to finally be the Barney that you've wanted to be?

[Em]

That'd be sick. I could be Barney.

[Christine]

Here's my question also, like, did you develop the Barney Persona before or after meeting the Barney? Because I. I would be worried as a parent, too, if, like, she's like, look, he's really here. And then, like, you decided, like, from that day on, you were Barney. Then it's like, oh, I've created a monster.

[Em]

No, I was already in the thick of it.

[Christine]

Okay, okay.

[Em]

It was a slow. I think you can only go so delusional until you just start calling yourself Barney.

[Christine]

I mean, you're right. Like, how much more could you have gotten in? How much. How much deeper could you have gotten into this?

[Em]

This was my third birthday. And then I also have home video of this.

[Christine]

The.

[Em]

The birthday before this was my second birthday, where we had a Barney cake. And the whole video is just a bunch of grown dads just, like, beating a Barney pinata. Like, Full bloody pulp. And the children are just screaming.

[Christine]

Dramatic. I know. I never understood pinata at the kid. Like, I mean, I understand it from a cultural perspective, but from like, my. Our generation, we'd grow up and just, like, get the cutest little thing and then just, like, give a bunch of little kids and their dads like baseball bats. And I remember being like, oh, no, the poor. Yeah, the poor Barney. Yeah, yeah. Adora the explorer. Oh.

[Em]

Anyway, in a. I didn't know it could be topped. And yet I have found a way to make something about me when I was trying to talk about your kid.

[Christine]

And no, I'm way more entertaining. I didn't do anything quite as dramatic, I don't think.

[Em]

Good.

[Christine]

We'll find out tomorrow.

[Em]

You have time.

[Christine]

There were tear. There were tears on the birthday, but they were, like, overtired and over sugared tears. And so we were like, it's a success. You know, like, she was just like a little weepy, like, not anything major. I will say, though, last night or this morning, on the way to school, Sherry and Blaze get home from dropping her off and go, there's a slight dilemma. And I went, oh. And they said, are you. We asked her if she's excited about her birthday party tomorrow, and she said, yeah, it's Dino ranch themed. And I was like, it is. And Blaze went, well, it's not. And I went, I know. And I was like, I have just spent weeks planning a Gabby's Dollhouse birthday. And I think it's because she had always said she wanted two themes. And I was like, you know, we should pick one. Like, I don't want to.

[Em]

She's such a diva. I love her. I know.

[Christine]

She's like, we do half and half. Half the cake is this, half the cake is that. And she couldn't decide.

[Em]

Gabby's Ranch.

[Christine]

Yeah, Gabby's Ranch. That's actually really cute.

[Em]

Or Dino Dollhouse. That'd be fun, too.

[Christine]

Dino. Okay, next year.

[Em]

Well, no, just get it. Just tonight, go get a dollhouse, put a bunch of dinosaurs in it. Dino Dollhouse. Boom.

[Christine]

I mean, we have a dollhouse. I'll put dinosaurs in it. I think she's. She's gonna be like, that's not.

[Em]

It's not.

[Christine]

Same. Yeah, you know, and then Blaze was like, we have a bunch of dinosaur stuff from last year. And I'm like, yeah, but she's gonna be like, it's not.

[Em]

It's not the same.

[Christine]

Whatever. So basically, I found a bunch of printables online, like coloring pages. And I was Like, I'm just gonna put these out. And then she has like Dino wrench toys. And I was like, well, use these as decorations. So. So there's a lot of kind of finagling going on. I don't think it'll be at the level of like the Barney 1995. Yeah, but it, but I kind of don't want it to be. Maybe when she's like, no, I don't know. I don't know. Someday it'll happen, but not today. Satan, please. So we're kind of like last minute trying. And Dino Ranch is not like as popular of a brand as it's like a Canadian TV show. So I'm like, you can't just like run a spare Halloween Walmart necessarily. Right? Like, it's just a little bit harder to find. So. And you know, with my trying to, trying to avoid certain online retailers, it's been really difficult, so.

[Em]

Understood.

[Christine]

Thankfully there are a lot of free resources online. And then Etsy had some like downloadable digital stuff and you know, I got my Cricut, so we're doing a lot of diy, but it'll be fun. And I'm pretty convincing. I can convince her that it's been Dino Ranch all along.

[Em]

You know, I. If anyone can do it, it's certainly you. And when in doubt, call my mom. She will have a dinosaur there in 24 hours.

[Christine]

Oh my God. She will literally just send bug ass Barney, as you called it, and we'll be like, see, he's from the ranch.

[Em]

I'm just saying I have two instances where she got a shitty last minute dinosaur.

[Christine]

It's the 30 year anniversary of the.

[Em]

Oh, don't tell her, Barney.

[Christine]

30 year anniversary. Do you think the original one is still around now? He's like 70 maybe to this day.

[Em]

I don't know who that man was. He was just in our backyard.

[Christine]

An icon, really. And he probably was like, oh, wow. Wow. Okay. Anyway, they really think I'm the real deal. Huh?

[Em]

He really. He must have felt so good about himself.

[Christine]

I hope so.

[Em]

But yeah, again, twice now my mom has proved she can get a last minute dinosaur. So if you decide on Dino Ranch.

[Christine]

No, I mean, why did I not even put that together? Like, D. Leona wants a Dino Ranch. Linda's got one on standby.

[Em]

I'm. She always. I honestly, I. Part of me has joked and then she never fully answered the question, but I was like, did you just buy that? Like at this point you should just have one on lease.

[Christine]

You should just invest, just have an outfit at all moments. You should be paying it off over the years because you know you're going to need it. It's like a timeshare. Like, someone else will use it, then we'll need it.

[Em]

Just don't ever. Just don't ever do what my mom did where, like, every single person you've ever known is next to you, and you can hear them whispering. I don't get it. That's like.

[Christine]

Well, you know that that's my worst nightmare, so don't worry. I'm way, way, way too neurotic to make that happen.

[Em]

Oh, man. Anyway, thanks, Mom. So, Anyway, it's been 45 minutes. I'm so sorry.

[Christine]

And it's been, like, such a good. I've had the best time. We actually started this podcast today. Going. It's going to be so short. I know, I know, because we were like, oh, we both brought a short story. And then, of course, here we go.

[Em]

What do you. You drink a D. Pepe and. Why? Is there a reason why?

[Christine]

Oh, oh, because. Because I'm hosting a party of children tomorrow, and I don't. I guess I don't have a Dino Ranch party. I have a Gabby's All House party with a few Dino Ranch characters sprinkled throughout. But you know what? It's just gonna have to have to work because I'm not gonna overhaul everything.

[Em]

The best part of this podcast is that one day Leona can listen to this, and then any issues that come about tomorrow, in, like, 10 years, she'll go, you tried, Mom. Good job.

[Christine]

I just have this flash of, like, me sitting there in a therapy office with her, and not in a traumatic way, but just in, like, a. Let's all, like, get, you know, talk things out and just, like. So on this part of the podcast, mom, when you mentioned me to, like, I'm like, I should probably shut my mouth sometimes. But.

[Em]

Oh, well, no, I mean, I don't think you've said anything too damning just yet. If she were a teenager, you're in trouble.

[Christine]

I'd be like, she hasn't done anything too damning, so she better watch it.

[Em]

Yeah. Let this be a prophecy. Don't do. Don't you mess up, Leona.

[Christine]

Don't you do it perfect.

[Em]

Well, why do I drink? Oh, my God. I'm just so tired. I did not know the effects that two red eyes in a row could have on a person.

[Christine]

You didn't, did you?

[Em]

I took a guess, but also, I was like, I'm pretty good at, like, falling asleep, and I Just like. I think, you know what the problem is, is I should have just let yesterday be like a day where I rested after the fact instead.

[Christine]

Well, that was my fault because I said, let's record on Thursday.

[Em]

No, no, no, because I. Because then after that I had like back to back plans with a bunch of people. And so I didn't go to bed until a normal time after not sleeping. So I'm half caught up on my sleep. But at the same time, I feel like after this I have so many things I need to do around the house when, like, all I want to do is just be horizontal.

[Christine]

You don't get rest time.

[Em]

You know what? And I do it to myself because really, who's here telling me I can't? Me, though. You know, all of a sudden I'm like, I have to do this or else it's just going to be looming.

[Christine]

And like, you got to pick your poison, you know, you either got to feel like guilty for this, feel weird for that, but you don't have to feel guilty for anything. But I know how brain. Thank you.

[Em]

I will say though, can I get a little clinky, A little cheers, A little test because Hankies had a big milestone.

[Christine]

He did clink.

[Em]

Oh, we ever. As people know, because I can't shut up about him. Ever since we got him, he has been actively destroying the house anytime we leave. And yesterday was the first time that the house was like semi full of our stuff. We've been living in squalor where, like, we hide everything whenever we leave. And every time we're going to go somewhere, I need a half an hour in advance to hide everything. So he basically just sits in an empty house because we're scared he's going to eat something. But yesterday was the first day that we didn't hide anything. And we left for like we. Me, I left for four hours and he. I came back and nothing had been touched.

[Christine]

Nothing. Wow. And I was like, what a good boy.

[Em]

He's a good little man.

[Christine]

What a good boy.

[Em]

I don't know where he is, but I know anyway, so I was very proud of him.

[Christine]

I'm so proud of him.

[Em]

So that's why I drink, because he's become a good man.

[Christine]

God, I'm so proud of him. Okay. Staring daggers into my eyes, which is why I'm toning it down a little bit.

[Em]

He's like, dang, you're talking about another man right in front of me. That's.

[Christine]

What the hell are you talking about? Yeah. Wow. Good boy, Em. You're probably wondering why I've brought you here to this campfire today.

[Em]

I do not totally know what's happening, actually.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's exactly how I want you. Because I have a ghost story to tell you today.

[Em]

Oh, and blacklight. That's a fluorescent spooky story.

[Christine]

The only flashlight I could find, so we're gonna have to go with it.

[Em]

It's creepy. It's giving us spooky color. Yeah.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Em]

Let's go. I'm very excited to hear you. You never do the. The paranormal side of things, so.

[Christine]

No, this felt. This one felt special. Okay, no pressure. Picture, if you will, a misty hillside where an ancient orchard slumbers under a ghastly crooked moon. Locals call it Crabby Grove.

[Em]

Beautiful, they say.

[Christine]

Every harvest, the trees get irritable branches that rattle like brittle bones. An old cider press that creaks to life, though no one's touched it in decades. No one living, that is. Over the years, the townsfolk had learned to coexist with the land, going the long way, avoiding Crabby Grove and its ghastly groans. Folks around here know better than to wander in after sunset. Not after the fruit salad incident.

[Em]

Never. I was there, trust me.

[Christine]

Let's just say the honeydew had its own agenda. No one dared step foot in the orchard. Until one night, under a full moon, two podcasters did the unthinkable. Armed only with clip on mics and misguided confidence, they wandered into Crabby Grove. Some claim they were brave to enter, others say foolish, and some say they were just looking for a bathroom. Either way, as they crept across the crispy autumn leaves and neared the gathering of ghastly trees, they heard a creak. That was pretty good. The air tasted sharp, like a bite from a perfectly crisp apple. And then they heard it. The thump of fruits dropping all around them. Though not one leaf stirred as the mist rolled in, the temperature dropped. The podcasters, suddenly realizing they may have gotten in over their heads, frantically gathered up their belongings. But it was too late. To their horror, what they thought were gnarled trees began to take shape as something else entirely. Farm hands, it seemed. And were they wearing overalls? One of the podcasters said, fun fact. That particular pattern of flannel is called buffalo plaid.

[Em]

Fun fact. If they're farmers in overalls, they might also just be lesbians at the orchard. I don't know, but whatever.

[Christine]

Yeah, Em made a really great. Made a really great point. The ghastly farmers approach, holding a glowing bottle, petrified the podcasters beheld the label Angry Orchard. Before they knew it, the podcasters were now each holding a cold bottle, the bottle cap already removed.

[Em]

Oh no. It's as if the objects moved themselves.

[Christine]

They looked from the bottle back to the ghostly farmhands, and the leader spoke. Take a sip and answer plain. Will it cool this orchard's flame? Or rather, will it wake our wrath and bring you down the cider path? And just like that, they vanished. But not before leaving one final word of warning. Choose your words wisely. What the hell was that supposed to mean? The podcaster shouted, before shrugging and taking a sip. It was delicious. Like, weirdly delicious. Crisp, refreshing. A little bold. Something from beyond the veil. It had to be. What else could result in such a bright, crisp apple flavor? Only something supernatural could result in such a perfect mix of sweetness, bright acidity, and the dryness of traditional cider making apples. But no, it wasn't paranormal, just the best cider they'd ever tried. And it was called Angry Orchard. The podcasters were no longer afraid. Instead, the two were refreshed and emboldened, knowing that apples with attitude weren't something to be afraid of, but instead something to enjoy. As for the honeydew, people say it's still out there, plotting its revenge.

[Em]

Grab freaky good cider from Angry orchard@angry orchard.com Halloween and while you're there, watch the new Jason vignette Sweet Revenge and shop the collab merch. And please drink responsibly. Christine, do you like having no money?

[Christine]

Yeah, it's my favorite on Opposite Day.

[Em]

Because after finally looking at my account on Rocket Money, I realized I actually have no money because it's on all been going to subscriptions that I did not know.

[Christine]

I love when that happens.

[Em]

Just imagine a waterfall, but instead of water, it's all my dollar bills. Because that's what was going on. And then Rocky Money was like, I am.

[Christine]

I am imagining that.

[Em]

Yeah, Rocky Money was like girl fix.

[Christine]

Well, I gotta say, like, I have been canceling a few subscriptions now that they have decided to bend to the will of a certain authoritarian figure. And so I'm like canceling left and right. And it's kind of cheating because they do all the hard work. Like you just click a button and Rocket Money's like, got it. We'll cancel. And I'm like, tell them why. And so it's really useful, especially when you know things are changing and you're trying to be more conscientious for how you spend money. And your waterfall is just like you're just trying to stem the flow a little bit.

[Em]

Exactly. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors and spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings or finally build them if you're me.

[Christine]

Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the apps features. So cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Drink today.

[Em]

That's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink okay, so I have a story for you. This was a Christine request because after our last episode, I was saying, man, I want to keep up the Halloween thing, but I don't really know what to do yet. And so I asked Christine what her Halloween wish would be.

[Christine]

And Christine, I have no idea what I said.

[Em]

Yes, you do. You don't remember?

[Christine]

No.

[Em]

Okay, well.

[Christine]

Oh, graveyards.

[Em]

Yes.

[Christine]

So games and graveyards.

[Em]

Christine asked specifically for gave your graveyard games was the situation here. But I have broadened it to like ways activities that we should all be bringing back to graveyards.

[Christine]

Oh, yes.

[Em]

Okay. Because I, I tried to look up games. I will bring them up a little bit, but wow, there was just about two whole sentences for the entire. Really?

[Christine]

I could bring you a whole sentence of. I could bring you a whole nother sentence of games of that I've played in graveyards.

[Em]

Yeah. What tell as a graveyard kid, what did. What were things that you would do?

[Christine]

Such a good story. I'm going to write it. Graveyard kids, I'm telling you.

[Em]

I mean, that's a. I just always call you Wednesday Adams. But you really did grow up in a graveyard. How does someone who has a graveyard in their. In their. As their backyard. What do you do with that?

[Christine]

So we used it a lot for background sets for. I did a lot of home videos. In case that's not clear from my personality. I directed a lot of home videos starring my unsuspecting neighbors and little brother. And so a lot of them were centered around that. We use it as like a kind of a set deck. You know, A lot of it was when I was feeling moody and I would kind of open my window and like, let the rain drizzle and I would just. So cool listen. No, because I was listening to probably like Kelly Clarkson and just like looking at the graveyard, you know, And I didn't do anything nefarious in there, you know, I would. I. We would. I did do a Ouija board in there. And I don't know that that was maybe necessarily appropriate, but I was. That was actually my high school. Speaking of high school graduations, my birthday and high school graduation were like a combo thing.

[Em]

Me too.

[Christine]

Yeah. Did you also graduate on June 5? I don't remember the day. My birthday was June. It was.

[Em]

Or the graduation was June 5th.

[Christine]

I think it was some. It was probably right around there. And I had this party and I. One kid actually, like, got so upset because he's Christian that he drove home and, like, wouldn't talk to me.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And so I remember being like, oh, that's the point where I realized, oh, this is maybe not as normal as I think it is.

[Em]

My first thought, I was like 18.

[Christine]

Like, what?

[Em]

My first thought would have been like, well, I never have to see him again now that we've graduated, so.

[Christine]

I know. Exactly. That was my second thought. I was like, okay, party pooper. And then some people were like, I don't know about this. And I was like, you're probably right. I mean, they're probably all right. But I would have thought it was sick.

[Em]

I would have thought it was.

[Christine]

I know. I mean, some people were really on board. So that's that. So that's. That's my kind of extent. I didn't do like a whole lot of. I mean, we'd play like when we were really little, play like hide and seek in there, but that's not really, you know, paranormal related.

[Em]

That's fine. I mean, I. It's. It's one of those things where in. By doing it in a graveyard, it's paranormal.

[Christine]

Right? I guess it is. Right. And I Like, who knows who else was playing with us?

[Em]

Yeah, right. Like, maybe you never actually. The seeker is still seeking. I don't know.

[Christine]

There was always this one girl in a Victorian dress.

[Em]

Oh, man. Well, I tried my best, but I really. I typed in graveyard games and it really kind of just turned into like hokey Halloween, like Bob for apple stuff. And I was. I was like, I can't. I'm not doing that.

[Christine]

No, I. Listen, I just. I'm here for the ride. I'm here along for the ride.

[Em]

So this is very quick because this is essentially instead of normal notes, this is just bullet points of things one can do. So.

[Christine]

Oh, I love it.

[Em]

So if you would like to give your opinion on. I'm not kidding, every single thing, that's fine because otherwise it's going to be about a.

[Christine]

Everyone, two minute Topic groaned, but I'm in.

[Em]

I. I tried, man. But okay, so this was my inspiration for.

[Christine]

Because, I mean, everyone groaned when I said, oh, oh, yes, I will be chiming in on every bullet point. Not. Not groaning at what you said. Groaning that I'm gonna make it annoyingly long.

[Em]

Well, the people who like your story and not mine are celebrating. They're like, finally a quick one. But while I still have their attention, I think this is. You're the per. For. You're the perfect person to have this conversation with as someone who is a graveyard kid. Yes.

[Christine]

A graveyard kid. Tmtm.

[Em]

There's, you know, boxcar children. Yes.

[Christine]

And I always call myself, like, you do too. A boxcar child. And I call you on my little boxcar child. But, like, graveyard kid is kick ass.

[Em]

I'm surprised as a little graveyard kid, you never called yourself a graveyard.

[Christine]

Why didn't I?

[Em]

I don't know. I would have called you that, especially if we went to the same high school. I'd been like, hey, graveyard kid, come over here.

[Christine]

Nobody really. Like, I don't think it was that unusual to me, like, because it was just normal. So maybe it didn't even occur to me. I don't know.

[Em]

That's true. I get that. Well, just know that that's what I've always called you. It's kind of like how apparently you always called me empathy and then didn't announce that information for a while.

[Christine]

I get this Emothy and the graveyard kid.

[Em]

It's like.

[Christine]

It's like Butch and the Sundance capacity. Yeah, it's like. But it's better.

[Em]

It is 100%, obviously. So. Okay, so you'll be able to tell me how possible these things are. And I. I separated the. I separated this up. There's some little chunk. Chunkies. So I would be remiss if I didn't even just mention the game Ghost in the Graveyard, which is. Which is something that you could, in theory, play in a graveyard.

[Christine]

And if we never played that in.

[Em]

The graveyard, I also feel like that that's really just hide and seek. If you're only playing with two people.

[Christine]

Fair enough.

[Em]

Because for those who don't know how to play Ghost in the Graveyard, it's hide and seek. Except there's only one hider, and everyone else is a seeker, but the hider is the ghost, and the seekers are ghost hunters. And once someone finds the person hiding, you're supposed to shout to everybody else, there's a ghost in the graveyard. And then the ghost will chase the hunters and if they tag you, you're now also a ghost and you become the next person.

[Christine]

Is it also, like, with flashlights? I feel like we always played it at night with flashlights.

[Em]

Maybe. I mean, there's also flashlight tag.

[Christine]

Yeah, I think I got them. I think we kind of crossed wires with those as kids.

[Em]

They're all just a little different. And I feel like almost every outdoor game is a different. Just. Just different enough version of hide and seek. Or. Or.

[Christine]

Yeah, tag. It's always like, it has the same elements. Yeah.

[Em]

Like, I'm gonna tag you, and then either the game's over and you're the next it, or now you're on my side.

[Christine]

Sometimes there's a flashlight.

[Em]

Red Rover, sharks and minnows. They're all the same. Anyway, I. Obviously someone was going to say I missed Ghost in the Graveyard if I didn't mention it. So that is a game one could play in the graveyard as well as the game. Graveyard. Did you ever play that as a kid?

[Christine]

I don't know. What is that?

[Em]

It was essentially the silent game. It was literally like, be as silent as a graveyard, pretend you're dead. Pretty much.

[Christine]

Oh, I did that because my parents asked me to. Me too.

[Em]

So the way we played it in school was it was basically Heads up, seven up, except instead of sitting at your table with your head on your desk, you would just lie down on the ground and just close your eyes, and then someone would just go around and, like, put your thumb in your hand. It was.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

The same thing. You played that?

[Christine]

Yeah, vaguely. But it's like, were they just trying to get us to take a nap? Like, what were we doing?

[Em]

I will say I only ever played that game during quiet time at school, so. Right. Maybe.

[Christine]

Okay. They were trying to just, like, tone our. They were trying to get our parasympathetic nervous systems, like, back in running. They were like, it's okay.

[Em]

There was another version of Graveyard that some of the other kids played where it was also a quiet game. But the one person who's it, or like, we always call them, like, the grave robber, his job was to go around to every kid lying on the ground, AKA dead body.

[Christine]

Oh, good.

[Em]

And his job was to, like, try to make you laugh. And if you. If you were the first one out of everyone in the graveyard to laugh, then you. You lost.

[Christine]

You were like, then you become a ghost.

[Em]

Well, then you're the next graveyard digger or whatever. Oh, okay.

[Christine]

I get it. I get it. I get it. That's fine, though. To make them laugh. I feel like that's always a good, like, concept of a game.

[Em]

Yeah. Try to make me laugh. Okay. I did that with you all the time.

[Christine]

So I was like, I'm. You didn't get you Give me a millisecond there. See?

[Em]

CB Made me laugh. Good job. I did it. So those are the two spooky themed, graveyard themed games. You wanted graveyard games. I got you, too. There you go.

[Christine]

Love it.

[Em]

But now these are just things that I think people should actually go do in a graveyard. Especially as someone who was a graveyard kid raising a graveyard grandkid. I think these would be fun activities if you're trying to do something other than zoo or museum, if you just want to. Or aquarium. I know she loves you.

[Christine]

I mean, listen, it's still there. We still live. My mom still lives there. So, you know, she has as much access as I did.

[Em]

Yeah. So if you ever want to, like, do a day in the graveyard, this is me basically trying to plan out activities for you and Leona.

[Christine]

That's kind of what this became so much.

[Em]

It comes with paperwork. I'm not kidding. I found forms for you, so obviously you could play some fun games like Find the grave. That's like the oldest. Or who was born the earliest.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Which is the strangest name? Which is the coolest looking grave or the weirdest looking grave?

[Christine]

So you want to know something that I did that did happen in a graveyard? Sorry, I don't mean to burst in right away, but I do have a kind of a ghost story from recently that happened. I don't know if it's a ghost story or, like, just a strange synchronicity, but it just hit me because I had, like, meant to bring it up on the show, but I was at my mom's recently and Leona was on her way there with. With Blaze or something. And I was walking through the graveyard, and I don't go in there very often anymore. Like, I don't know. I just don't. And I went in there to go. I went in there and I, like, was just kind of actually looking at the graves and really just like, I was by myself and I was just, I don't know, meandering. And I saw this one, and it just, like, made my heart ache because it was a little baby and her name was, like, Ida May or something and. Or no, Fannie Mae. That's what it was. And it had, like, a little lamb on it, like a little lamb statuette. And I just thought it was, like, so sweet and heartbreaking. Because she was really little when she passed. And so I, like, went and, like, kind of like, pet the little lamb and. And gave a little kiss. And then, like, went back to my house. And a few hours later, Leona was like, can we go exploring? And so my mom and she and I walked into the graveyard. We're looking around, and I'm telling you, like, there are hundreds of graves in this thing. It's not like a small plot or anything. She. We're wandering around. She goes right up to. And this is when she was like two or three. Like, she was speaking, but not too much. And she walked up to the grave of this Fannie Mae, and she just like. And I'm like, frozen. I don't say anything. And she, like, pets a little sheepy. And she goes, mommy, what's her name? And I was like, first of all, how do you even know it's a her? You know, like. Like, it just was so strange. And I was like, oh, her name is Fannie Mae. And that was it. And that was it. But I remember going, like, out of all the hundreds of graves, and it's not the only child grave, unfortunately, but it was a very weird moment. And I was like, she didn't want to know any of the other names of the kids or the people there. So.

[Em]

Well, honestly, I'm sure that if that little spirit, like, saw that you're like, oh, that's a nice mommy. Like, I could feel safe with this.

[Christine]

So. And I. And I like that Leona got to come, like, see her, you know, it was just like, really? Anyway, so that was that moment. But, yeah, so we have, like, looked around. Oh, here it is. I walked through cemetery. A two year. Oh, that's what it was. Oh, my God, I forgot. Sorry. I found a two year old's tombstone that some had kicked over. Like, somebody had, like, broken it. And I will say it's also. Oh, I don't want to triangulate myself, but there's some other reasons that they might have done that. So I pried it out of the dirt, and I. And I could tell it'd been recently knocked over because the dirt was, like, there was still grass under it. So I, like, set it back up upright and I said, like, a little prayer. And then a few hours later. Oh, that's what it was. I was kind of touching the graves. I also have ocd. And then Leona said, mommy, can you touch this one? And I turned around, and she was at that grave. And I was like, oh. And she went, what's? Her name. And I was like, oh, my God. So that was.

[Em]

It's like the two of you had a little moment together.

[Christine]

I know. I felt really like that was special. And I had fixed the little grave, so I felt like, oh, that was a nice little, like, nodded, you know?

[Em]

You know, while you're there, I don't know if this would, like, put your kid into psychosis, but, well, the Barney.

[Christine]

Thing did it for you, so you'd know. You know, I don't know.

[Em]

I was going to say, have you ever thought about taking her there and just going, do you see anyone? And just seeing if she does.

[Christine]

I feel like she would tell me if she did. You know what I mean?

[Em]

Like, you don't want to like, open that can of worms, right?

[Christine]

And I don't want her to be like, why are you asking? Because I feel like if she saw somebody, I would know, like, if she was like, looking at a person. Like, she's old enough now too. Where I'm like. And she also loves to talk to people. So.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

Honestly, I'm just waiting for the day she walks up to nobody and goes like, hi, you're right.

[Em]

Two plus two is four. And you're like, what? I. I only use, use that example because one of the freakiest times I ever heard of somebody, like a kid going up and talking to someone is the parents were like, okay, we'll ask them. This math problem. You couldn't possibly know. And like, he was getting every single one of them. Right. That was freaky.

[Christine]

That's not ok. Okay. That is not cool, man.

[Em]

Anyway, in case you ever need to test it, just ask like, what's like 20 times 100?

[Christine]

Yeah, or like what was like something like about a floppy or something that, like, she wouldn't know from their era.

[Em]

So. By the way, do you know the difference between a cemetery and a graveyard?

[Christine]

I do a cemetery or. I'm sorry, A graveyard is usually part of a church. Right? So then I'm wrong. It's actually a cemetery.

[Em]

You're technically a cemetery kid. But graveyard sounds so much cooler.

[Christine]

Graveyard kid. It sounds way cooler. But yeah, so I always say graveyard. But yeah, you're right. Cemetery is the one without.

[Em]

I'm not gonna knock you for it.

[Christine]

Church. Okay. Thank you.

[Em]

A graveyard kid is still cooler than cemetery kid. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

I think so.

[Em]

Nerd.

[Christine]

You nerd. You wish.

[Em]

So, okay, so yeah, you could always play the game like, let's go find the oldest grave here. Let's go find who was born the earliest.

[Christine]

What's or who lived like, the oldest.

[Em]

Age, or who has the silliest name, or just like, pick a thing. Like, let's go find a married couple because they're always buried together. Let's go find. You know, so that's an easy one. Just like a. Let's go on an exploration and an adventure and try to find this one thing.

[Christine]

I love it. I love it.

[Em]

And that's something. I added that to the adult list, because I did. Adult list. And then, like, things you want. You. I set up. I basically made a date for you and Leona, but so that's something you could do as adults also. Because I would want to play that with you. Whether or not Leona was there for sure. I did put Ouija board. You know how I feel about Ouija boards, but I do. I, I'm not an idiot. I know someone wants to go to a cemetery and do that. So.

[Christine]

And I've done it. So I. As much as maybe that was probably not, you know, I would say no.

[Em]

Someone, someone would write in the comments and be like, no Ouija board in a graveyard. Really? And it's like.

[Christine]

And today, you know, maybe not in a place where it's other people's loved ones. I would not, not. But, you know, back then, as a, as a, as a young teen, I wasn't drinking beer. I was doing Ouija boards in the graveyard.

[Em]

So when your frontal lobe has not developed, I fully understand wanting to thank you. Do a Ouija board in the cemetery.

[Christine]

I mean, also, like, it was a good idea.

[Em]

I'm terrified of Ouija boards just because I've seen some really creepy with them, like, at some point in my life. I also loved playing with Ouija boards. And I would have absolutely wanted to go into a graveyard. I don't know if you want to, if you want to answer this, but I got asked, did you ever make out in a graveyard? How Wednesday Adams coded would that be?

[Christine]

I know, but I didn't. I wasn't. I didn't. I wanted to. I'll tell you that. I would have.

[Em]

No one wanted to kiss you?

[Christine]

No. I just didn't have any prospects, Christine.

[Em]

I would have totally done it.

[Christine]

I mean, listen, I, I, I. Yeah, I went to a very Blaze is right there. I'm just saying it's not in the cards. Maybe we'll. We'll do Leona's like, I thought this was a date for you and me, Mom.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Have you made out in a graveyard slash cemetery?

[Em]

No, but it's. If they're If Allison and I ever drove past a graveyard, I'd be like, get out of the car.

[Christine]

Well, yeah, I've never driven past the graveyard.

[Em]

I don't think I've ever noticed. I've never paid attention, but.

[Christine]

Oh, really?

[Em]

No. They're everywhere, dude. I think it's one of those things where, now that we're talking about it, I will see it everywhere. No, I think it'd be so. I don't know why. I just, like.

[Christine]

And you'll be like, why am I so turned on?

[Em]

Yeah, I don't even know if I would be doing it to be turned on. It would be more like just to check it off the list, like.

[Christine]

Yeah. I mean, honestly, I may have made out in a graveyard at some point in my life as an older person, but not in that graveyard.

[Em]

I don't know.

[Christine]

Not in that cemetery.

[Em]

Well, I. I mainly ask you about this graveyard because it was, like, your backyard. And everyone, like, you know, it's the quintessential thing. Like, oh, you get, like, a first kiss, like, in your backyard, and yours happens to be a fucking graveyard.

[Christine]

You know what I mean? I used to actually sit outside listening to Kelly Clarkson and thinking, like, oh, I can't wait for my first kiss to be out here. I'm serious. And then just wasn't in the cars. It was actually in a Chevy Impala. And it was just so bad and awkward.

[Em]

It was like. Like, example on reclaiming this moment for yourself. If that's something you would want to do. Is that in my neighborhood a little bougier than your graveyard? So sorry. I grew up on a golf course.

[Christine]

Oh, I thought you meant right now. I was like, wait, what? Oh, yes, your childhood.

[Em]

So. And the golf course was always where, like, all the teens would, like, go and, like, hook up and, like, get, like, up and, like. Like, I was always like, oh, man, I wish I was cool enough like, that someone would invite me.

[Christine]

So my dad's house was on a golf course, and so that is where all the cool kids would be. And my parents would be like, go play with them. And I'd be like, they didn't want.

[Em]

To play with me. They wanted.

[Christine]

They don't want me, and they don't want to be. To be there.

[Em]

Anyway, it was very nice that I. I gave Allison a tour, and I was like, that's the golf course I never got to hook up on. And then we. She went out there, and we. We just gave each other a kiss. Like, nothing crazy, but, like, it was just so we could Say. I could say I've been kissed on the golf court because it had not happened and it was, like, very overdue, but it was nice. So. I don't know. Blaze, if you're listening, go smooch your wife on a graveyard and just see what happens. Just because it's.

[Christine]

See what happens. Just see what happens.

[Em]

I mean, just maybe you'll fall even more in love with each other. Okay. Anyway, sorry to put you on the spot like that. I just. I.

[Christine]

No, listen, I'm happy to talk about it anytime. I just. There's nothing much to say, unfortunately.

[Em]

I just wanted to know if you ever. Because I always felt like I missed out on that. So I don't know if you felt the same way.

[Christine]

So I also felt like I missed out on that, but in my own ways. Yes.

[Em]

So the other thing. This is obvious, I'm so sorry to say, like, the boring ones, but needs to be said picnics. Because that. If you recall, I've talked about it before with other graveyards, but, like, they were originally designed to be public spaces that people wanted to be a part of. Did you know that?

[Christine]

Did. Not really. No. I don't think I knew that.

[Em]

Yeah. So I don't know if it's all graveyards, but a lot of them were designed to be park. So that way it wasn't just a place where you dump a body that you never see again. It was supposed to be welcoming. So when you went to go visit your family, it would be a place.

[Christine]

That you wanted to stay. And that makes sense, right? Like, people will. Will gather and like, bring. Yeah. Like a blanket and some. And then just chat with their loved one. Like, you see that on TikTok, too. Like, people will bring, like, their phones and.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Have, like, mom talk to dad who's passed or whatever and, like, you know, like, update him on life and stuff. And I just think those are so sweet. So. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, let's bring that back.

[Em]

Very. And also, a lot of cemeteries for a while had, like, an open area, which was literally meant, I think, just to be a public park. So that way, like, you could go spend the weekends at the park and then, oh, let's go say hi to dad or hi to grandpa while we're here. And it was supposed to be. It was like. I feel like these days cemeteries are like, oh, we don't go over there unless it's for a sad reason. But it used to be in the intention, at least at a lot of cemetery was. Was to make sure that all those people stayed in the community, so they tried to make them communal spaces, places.

[Christine]

Right. It makes sense. And like, you'd. In a community, like, especially a smaller one, you'd know everyone and you'd know their families and, like, it would be, like, somewhere that. Yeah, that would make sense. You'd want to spend everybody. Yeah.

[Em]

Especially when there wasn't, like. I. I'm talking, like, back in the day when there weren't a lot of wild activities out there to do. Like, there weren't, like. I don't know, it was just.

[Christine]

There was bobbing for apples.

[Em]

There was bobbing for apples. And so.

[Christine]

Or like watching a public execution.

[Em]

But, yeah, picnics were. Used to be very common. I, like, people would just go out there and hang out. So I feel like we should bring that back and make.

[Christine]

Yeah, I like it. I like it.

[Em]

I feel like it's just a little bit of a symbolism that, like, we're no longer a village, you know?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree.

[Em]

Okay. The one that I really like and I have done this in graveyards before, and it's so fun is geocaching. Have you done that?

[Christine]

No, I've got done geocaching, but not in a graveyard.

[Em]

It's so fun. People have left things in graveyards before.

[Christine]

That's so smart. Yeah, that's very. That's a perfect place for that.

[Em]

Yeah. And for those who don't know, geocaching is like, it's. You can. There's an app on your phone, and it'll tell you, like, oh, there's this, like, there. There's basically hidden treasure all over the city. And the. There's always like, a little scroll or a piece of paper for you to write your name on to say, like, I've been here and I've seen the prize. And it's sometimes like a penny. But the. The rule is always. If you're going to take the trinket that you find, you always have to put a new one back for the next person who comes here.

[Christine]

But, yeah, it's like a little scavenger hunt.

[Em]

And you can see the log of all the people who've been here. Yeah, it's like. It's like scavenger hunting in your own town. So I would suggest going to do that. That's very cool. I wrote some other things that I thought either you would enjoy, or I could see you wanting to, like, teach Leona, and this would be, like, a fun way to teach her. You know what I mean?

[Christine]

I can't wait. Yes.

[Em]

So one of them is helping collect trash. Like, always bring, like, an extra trash bag and, like, just be mindful.

[Christine]

That's great.

[Em]

I know it's, like, kind of silly, but if you wanted an activity that's also helpful.

[Christine]

I mean, like, a lot of places just really do. Especially places like that. I mean, now this. The cemetery at my house has patrol. Like a patrol because. Because people are not nice and are disrespectful. And we'll go in there and, like, do drugs or make out. But more than that, right? Like, you know, do, like. And by the way, having a window above it, my bedroom window. I heard all sorts of things back in the day where I was like, geez, so now they actually have, like, a locked gate at night. Like, it's closed.

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

But back in the day, it was just open. Right. And like, so I just wander out there. But now it's more. But they have to patrol it now because. And they have to pay to patrol it because people trash it. And.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So it's kind of, like, frustrating. And. Yeah, I can. I think that's a really great thing to. To help keep places like that clean because someone has to, you know, and it's like, why should the families of the loved ones who are there to just grieve or to, like, connect.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Have to deal with that.

[Em]

And so it would teach your kid to be respectful of the environment. And then also, I thought you would really get a kick out of this one. I came up with this one on my own. Is build your own. Like an activity at home and then bring it to the. To the graveyard. Is like, build your own little, like, bee house. Like a little. And put it. Print it next or print it. Put it in, like, the gardens and everything. So that way the flowers stay nice and we save the bees.

[Christine]

Little pollinator. Pollinator station. Yeah, pollination station.

[Em]

Pollination station. Another one is go collect rocks and then have Leona paint them. And then she can have little trinkets to give all the graves another one. I was obsessed with this when I was a kid, so I thought Leona might like. It is when you, like, would put paper over a rough thing and then like, yes, with the crayon. You could do that with the graveyard.

[Christine]

With the graveyard, really well. Oh, yeah. And that way you're cool. They call what they call it grave rubbing, I think something.

[Em]

But yeah, that would be practice reading. What could it mean? Another one is this is for when she's older, but pick a grave and do an ancestry project on them.

[Christine]

Oh, also I just looked it up and apparently you just have to be cautious that it's not a super duper old stone because it can harm it. Okay, just a side note before people clock in, but yes, fair enough.

[Em]

Fair enough.

[Christine]

Stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So don't go to like a, I don't know, a thousand year old crumbling thing and put a crayon on it. But you know, you have common sense. People just use common sense.

[Em]

100. Another one. I thought that would be a fun activity for the two of you. And then you can go to the graveyard with. It is to make wind chimes and then maybe hang them in a tree somewhere.

[Christine]

Oh, that's beautiful.

[Em]

I was trying. You said graveyard games, and I was like, I don't know. The games are gonna be activities. I don't know, man.

[Christine]

I love activities, you know, and crafting. So this is a dream.

[Em]

This was one that I used to do. Not that I lived at a graveyard, but I used to go to them and I tried to make it like the kid version. But if she ever has a new toy that she wants to show off to people, she can go to the graveyard and introduce it to people and tell people all about her toy.

[Christine]

What did you do that? You did that when you were young? I need to know about that story.

[Em]

Mine was. I was a really big music nerd. Like, I. I'm not anymore, but I used to. I have. I had like a whole phase where I was like a record collector and all this stuff.

[Christine]

Oh, wow.

[Em]

So I used to go there and listen to music and I wanted to, like, talk to someone about it, but I didn't want to annoy anyone. So I would just like, talk to, like, them about the music. I'd be like. And then this happens in the music video. I don't know. It was very silly.

[Christine]

But I like that though. Like, why not?

[Em]

You know, I also took that and thought for Leona, it'd be cool if, like, if she. It's so stupid. I'm sorry. I'm like, assigning things.

[Christine]

It's stupid. I want to know.

[Em]

But like, if she ever went to like, like make up a dance, she can go perform it for them. Like, I don't know.

[Christine]

Oh, and she will, by the way, she. Don't tell her twice. She'll do a dance and like an entire vaudeville performance.

[Em]

Another thing that I used to do, which I. And again, I. I used to play. I used to play kick the can in. In the cemetery near me, but it was like, with the goal of like, not trying to kick any. Like, I don't want the can, like, hitting me, but if a can rolled over that way, I took it as a sign that I should go talk to. To them. And so you're, like, playing kick the.

[Christine]

Can with them, I guess.

[Em]

Or I just kind of took it as, like, whoever wants to talk, I'm gonna kick the can and just if it rolls over to you, then I'm just gonna take it to the side that you want to talk. And then I would learn about people that way. So I thought that was fun. You could also do board games and puzzles. You could bring chalk, which is fun. Not for the actual graves, but, like, for the road.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

One family I knew growing up, they would go to the graveyard to go Christmas caroling so they could still sing to their grandma. So I thought you could do that.

[Christine]

That's nice.

[Em]

I. There was a. The grade above us in school, they had a graveyard project where they had. They were teaching kids about different time periods. So each kid got to pick a grave, and then you had to learn about that time period, and then you brought them, like, a candy or a toy from that time period.

[Christine]

So. Cool.

[Em]

So you could.

[Christine]

I love that, because then you really learn about, like, what they. When. When they lived and what it would have been like and.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And then you don't show respect.

[Em]

You don't have to pigeonhole yourself into. I don't know anything about them, but it's like, oh, they're from the 40s, so maybe they would have liked this old magazine.

[Christine]

They, like, lived in this area or whatever. Yeah, that's really cool. I like that a lot. It's so. And now with, like, ancestry and all this, like, you could probably really do so much. A lot. Yeah.

[Em]

Another one I thought would be cool is, like, creating a scavenger hunt and having to.

[Christine]

Cute.

[Em]

Look through it.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. Like, find some. Find twin. Like a twin or something. Or find, like. Like, two people who were born on the same. Or born on the same day or have the same birthday as you or something. That could be a lot of fun. Little, like.

[Em]

Well, that was one too, because it was just her birthday. So I thought, what if she found one that had her birthday and they would have a birthday party together.

[Christine]

Oh, that's cute. Bring a piece of cake.

[Em]

This is kind of a Combine a combination of that in a scavenger hunt. But I always thought this was so cool. I saw it on a TV show forever ago. If anyone else. If anyone remembers it, can you please write it? Because I Can't remember the episode, but it was a cartoon with a graveyard in it. Must have been, like, something on Cartoon Network. I remember they had, like, some adult stuff, but he. This is, like, so sad. But this little kid brought. It was his birthday, and he had an extra balloon, and so he walked through the graveyard trying to find someone that shared his birthday so he could give them a balloon. Oh. So I thought that'd be kind of cool if I would do this. Not, like, even for Leona. I think it'd be cool if, like, just get a balloon and then just. Your whole goal that day is to try to find someone in the graveyard that has or just has a birthday that day. Like, the day you walk in.

[Christine]

Oh, that day, yeah.

[Em]

If they have a birthday now you've got someone now they get a gift.

[Christine]

Like, and just like. I don't know, maybe just in case nobody was able to visit that day for their birthday. Maybe. Yeah, maybe you can visit. That's really sweet.

[Em]

I thought this one was also neat. Similar to, like, making a little bee hotel together. But you could set up a little free library, and then that way there's always books there.

[Christine]

That's good. Always. Yeah, like that.

[Em]

And then this is how my ADHD brain would work, and I would want to do this. But try to learn all the flowers so you can identify them. So when you walk by, you go, that one means this, and that one means this, and that one means.

[Christine]

That's cute.

[Em]

Same with the symbolism. Like, all the signs on a grave. Like, what do they mean? And like, statues. Did you ever hear about, like, the horse statue code?

[Christine]

A little bit, but I don't really know it.

[Em]

Apparently. If you ever see. In a. In a graveyard.

[Christine]

Oh, with the. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

[Em]

No, no, just go ahead. If you. If you know it.

[Christine]

Is it, though? Where. If. Or in a painting where you see. If you see a horse with one leg up, it's like they died in combat or something.

[Em]

Yeah. So if you ever see a horse statue, if it has all four feet on the ground, it died of natural causes. If only one foot is up, it means that they died from an injury in battle. And if they're, like. If they're two feet up and they're basically standing, it means they died during battle.

[Christine]

But the. The person. Right? Like, not the horse.

[Em]

No, the horse.

[Christine]

Oh, the horse. Yeah. Oh. I thought it was about the person riding the horse, maybe.

[Em]

I don't know, but I've always heard it was the horse. Oh.

[Christine]

I only know about it in paintings, so maybe it's like, different, you know.

[Em]

Statues anyway, but there's like, a lot.

[Christine]

So are there horse graves there?

[Em]

That's a great question, but I've always heard it's literally called horse code, so I was just like, Morse code. That's funny. But I always thought it was about the actual horse themselves. I don't know. Are you looking it up?

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm curious. Okay. Equestrian. Oh, it's on Snopes. That's good. Equestrian statue code. Oh, for. Folk wisdom has it that equestrian statues contain a code whereby the rider's fate can be determined by noting how many hooves the horse has raised. The most common theory is that if one hoof is raised, the rider was wounded in battle, two raised hooves, death in battle, all four hooves. The writer survived, but apparently this is malarkey. Hold on. The hoof code mostly holds true in terms of Gettysburg equestrian statue. So you might be honestly there. Although even that site includes at least one exception. However, even the most cursory look at the statues around other sites, such as DC quickly disproves that it holds general sway. So maybe it's just like more some areas, like. Or some wars or some.

[Em]

So interesting.

[Christine]

Yeah. Oh, Virginia. An additional rumored statute code is prevalent in Virginia's Monument Avenue in Richmond, and that they're facing a certain way, but apparently that's not even true either.

[Em]

Sorry. Whoops.

[Christine]

Shoot. I thought that was going to be.

[Em]

A. I was going to blow my mind.

[Christine]

Fun fact. Oh, and then it says parentheses, please don't write to tell us that the odds of a given person's manner of death matching the correct checked statutory statuary code are 1 in 9, not 1 in 3. The latter is correct. Wow. Okay.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Don't even try.

[Em]

Okay, Good to know.

[Christine]

Okay, sorry. Now I feel like a party pooper. But, no, I'd heard that too.

[Em]

Now, you could go to a graveyard and go, well, actually, you know, I can go liars. And on top of that, like, so there was a bunch of different. Like, I feel like this is something Tim would do, but, like, to go around and know the name of, like, every symbol and every shape of the gravestone. Do you know how many shapes of gravestones there are?

[Christine]

I don't even think I've ever thought about it.

[Em]

I didn't either, but apparently, because I was like, what do you do in graveyards? What do some people do? And there was like a whole Reddit page of, like, people being like, this is my favorite shape of monument. And I'm like, what the. So I'm Just going to read some of them to you so you know how many there are. And how fun would it be if you. I mean, there's nothing more Wednesday Adams than Leona growing up one day and going, it's not even a. A whatever. Right.

[Christine]

It's not even a mortuary. Whatever. Yeah, yeah. So obviously this.

[Em]

These are some of the most popular ones.

[Christine]

I'm so excited.

[Em]

Okay, square top, check top arc top arc top with shoulders, OG half. OG half, round pee on top, serpentine heart book, round bench, animal, rustic cross, footstone, bedstead, plaque marker, raised top in socket on base, pulpit marker, rectangle bevel, floral, flat, slanted upright or government issue.

[Christine]

Jesus. Oh, my Lord. It's like, okay.

[Em]

The duggers, it's like we're just.

[Christine]

Yeah. So it's like it just doesn't end.

[Em]

If you wanted to be a. Well, actually person. I'm just saying you could absolutely. And teach. Clearly teach her what all the symbols mean because I've always been fascinated. Like, what does it mean when there's a lion?

[Christine]

I would love to know.

[Em]

Do you want to guess what the top three symbols on a gravestone are, like, the most. Most used across? Duh.

[Christine]

A. I don't know. I'm gonna say a sheep because that was on that one.

[Em]

That was one of them. But not in the top three.

[Christine]

Okay. A, A heart.

[Em]

Another top contender, but no.

[Christine]

A symbols. And is this just on the top or is this like any.

[Em]

I think just on it. I'm not sure.

[Christine]

An infinity symbol? No.

[Em]

Oh, that's a good guess. No, that's. The other two are angel and dove.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. I mean, that makes sense.

[Em]

A little obvious.

[Christine]

I was more traditional in my guess.

[Em]

I really wanted to blow your mind with something that I couldn't say, but.

[Christine]

If you think about like how many graves are from thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago? Like, I mean, not here necessarily, but that's a great.

[Em]

That's a great point though, because I would be fascinated to see what the numbers look like on that. Like forever ago, I would think most graves had a cross or something on it.

[Christine]

Any Christian affiliated person would have a cross, even if they. Yeah, exactly. It would just be the norm, probably.

[Em]

But as religion kind of falls to the wayside, I wonder what the now most popular symbols would be on a gravestone.

[Christine]

I wonder, too. I wonder too. I did look up art would be up there, probably.

[Em]

I did see that a dragon apparently to some means religious sin. And I was like, I just know there's some metal ass person who's Gonna.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I hope to find that someday.

[Em]

Would you like me to throw a couple symbols your way and you guess what they mean?

[Christine]

Yes, absolutely.

[Em]

A rooster.

[Christine]

What, that's on there? Apparently so. So is it like a symbol about how they died or just like a general symbol of some meaning?

[Em]

Unfortunately, they're kind of like the. Like a boring meaning of. So.

[Christine]

Yeah, so I was like, it means he died at the crack of dawn.

[Em]

He loved those chickadees.

[Christine]

Yeah, he loved a cock. Or chick. Okay, sorry, I for. I regret saying that out loud. Maybe it means diligence. I don't know.

[Em]

Close vigilance.

[Christine]

Okay, so I telepathically got my wires crossed with you. Okay, got it.

[Em]

And actually, cockadoodle. Do it. Awakening. Which it does. Okay, that makes sense.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Another one is Ivy.

[Christine]

Oh, Ivy. I bet Ivy symbolizes eternity.

[Em]

Shut the up, Christine. You're so good at this.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

Because I guess ivy stays green forever. Don't tell Allison, but we have ivy outside, and I certainly killed it. It ain't green, but if you live.

[Christine]

In California, all bets are off when it comes to plants.

[Em]

Allegedly, ivy stays green forever. So it is a symbol for immortality and eternal life.

[Christine]

Oh, I killed it. I had no idea. Sorry, bad pun.

[Em]

Another. We'll just do another quick one. This one's kind of maybe obvious, but. A buttercup, like the flower.

[Christine]

Oh, like spring or rebirth. I don't know.

[Em]

Happiness, cheerfulness.

[Christine]

Okay, so I just was. Yeah, I was just guessing.

[Em]

The other ones were way too obvious. I was like a cross. What could a cross mean? You know? Although I did see one where it was like a vessel with light in it means love for the Lord, but an urn with light in it means friendship.

[Christine]

Oh, with light in it.

[Em]

Apparently, that's what that means.

[Christine]

What do you mean, light in it?

[Em]

Like. Like. Like a flame, I think. I don't know.

[Christine]

Oh, I was thinking, like, you put, like, a light bulb in it. I was like, is that a thing? Okay, I'm sorry. Yes, I understand.

[Em]

But, yeah. So anyway, the. Another thing you guys could do, I guess, is just learn all the symbols together. So now I'm just going to read real quick the things that.

[Christine]

So fun. I'm.

[Em]

Is it so boring? I like.

[Christine]

No, it's so fun.

[Em]

Okay. Thank you for everything. Louder.

[Christine]

Agree with me.

[Em]

I appreciate you.

[Christine]

I like, I love going to my mom's, but I'm always like, oh, we're just, you know, Liana's just going to want to play like. Like Candyland for three hours now. I'm like, oh, my God, we have so much to do. Well, outside.

[Em]

One thing I was going to say, which actually let me send you this form.

[Christine]

Could we play Candyland in the cemetery? Leona's gonna ask me.

[Em]

So I'm saying I literally, I. I put board games and puzzles. I. Maybe not a puzzle, because you're kind of. You have to finish it. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're asking for lost pieces, you know, but 100 I would do. I would, like, like, Shoots and ladders could be fun.

[Em]

Yeah. Here is a form I found. It's called Burial Grounds, Family activities. And someone made this little form of, like, things to do with your kids when they're in a cemetery.

[Christine]

That's super sweet. You know, especially because people, like, have lost, like, loved ones or if they've lost, like, a sibling or, you know, someone in the family, a parent. Like, that can be really a cool healing thing.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Imagine how cool is that?

[Em]

So one of. One of the activities is find all the flowers. What plants are there? Can you tell the difference? Do a drawing of the flowers. Can you color a leaf? Like, it's, like, very sweet. And then they have religious symbols that you can go try to find. They have other symbols you can go try to find. And then they have a list of some of those headstone shapes. So it's just, like, to play easy games.

[Christine]

Look at this.

[Em]

Yeah, Someone made that. I was like, that sounds like something that's. I feel like I would do something like that.

[Christine]

I love this. That it's like, tulip means life, and, like, rose means love, and poppy means death. Eternal sleep. I'm like, whoa. Okay. That got intense real fast.

[Em]

But I did think from that. I don't. I'm sure maybe there's an Etsy Something somewhere. But it would be cool if you decided to create, like, your own little bingo chart.

[Christine]

Bingo. Yes.

[Em]

And then the two of you could scavenger hunt until you finish bingo over there.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I mean, literally, we just need to, like, collab with these people because they have all the symbols and, like, draw drawn out. We just need to, like, put them on a little.

[Em]

And you can make them even harder because instead of it find a flower, it could be like, find the one that means purity.

[Christine]

You know, it's like, like, little hidden meanings and. Oh, my God, this is so fun. Like a little scavenger hunt bingo thing.

[Em]

So in the adult section, I also have picnic again, geocaching. Although I think it would be. I think it Would blow Leona's mind if you were like, let's go to the graveyard. I know where there's treasure. All of a sudden, she's gonna treasure. She's gonna go there all the time. Yeah. I also said I tried to, like.

[Christine]

And then we have to tell the people when we go in there, and they're like, what do you. Do you have family here? And she's like, no, we're just like, digging for treasure. And they're going to be like, actually, that's called grave robbing.

[Em]

Yeah, please. Yeah.

[Christine]

The police are already here. They.

[Em]

They knew I tried to cater these to you because you're the only one to know with a graveyard.

[Christine]

So these are things that at my.

[Em]

Disposal, if for some reason Leona is not around and you just wanted your own time in the graveyard. I feel. It feels condescending telling you what to do in your own backyard. But these are some new things you can try.

[Christine]

Listen, I'm. I'm loving it. I don't. I don'. Any clue to my. Myself. You already gave me make out. I have that on the list, so.

[Em]

So that should be at the top.

[Christine]

It is.

[Em]

Then there is obviously listening to music, reading, journaling. Those are standards.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Maybe read them the newspaper. If anything interesting is going on, just catch them up and be like, girl, you are missing out over there.

[Christine]

Just in case anything interest. You're missing out. You're not missing out. I'll tell them that much.

[Em]

Another one I thought you would love. This one is you find like a married couple one or a family plot and do horoscopes of their compatibilities and.

[Christine]

Then start some family drama.

[Em]

Yeah. And be like, I bet the two.

[Christine]

You hated this thing about Rose, you and Ira. I can tell there was a clash for sure. Especially when it came to, like, keeping the home. You know, your approach to that. Wow. I would probably get an entire family of people following me home to yell at me. I don't know.

[Em]

Here's the other thing. On top of figuring out their compatible compatibility through horoscopes, I thought you could also practice tarot with them and just.

[Christine]

Like, oh, that's cool.

[Em]

Do a spread and let the winds kind of pull one out.

[Christine]

That's a really cool idea. Or you could practice. Some people would not approve of that, but I think it's a great idea.

[Em]

I think it's cool. Or like meditate and see if you can kind of sense which one feels right for them, you know?

[Christine]

Oh, and then it says the devil.

[Em]

It says, get out of my Space days. Another one I thought you would get a kick out of is bird watching, of course. And then if you were able to go at night, which I think you're maybe the only person on Earth, you can if you're. Technically, if your old bedroom is right above it, you are maybe in the. Great.

[Christine]

I mean, I mean, technically, I'm probably not allowed anymore. I'll have to check. But I think they only close it up mostly so that people don't, like, go do illicit things in there. But yes, I do have access. Technically.

[Em]

I was gonna say you could learn. I don't. I always forget the difference between astronomy and astrology, but you could learn to go stargazing.

[Christine]

Yeah, I love stargazing. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah. I've always, always wanted to be that person who's like, oh, there's Hercules. Oh, you can't see it. Oh, that's crazy. You can't see him.

[Christine]

You know what? You know, it's so beautiful. You can do that. You can just go outside and say, there's Hercules. You don't see it.

[Em]

I could.

[Christine]

Like, everyone would probably be. Well, actually, we know a lot of smart people. They'd probably be like, you're full of. But I do know Orion's Belt, and I brag about that one all the time.

[Em]

That really. That one and then being able to see Neptune and Jupiter. Those are my only three skin skills.

[Christine]

Big Dipper. You got any action on that? Big Dipper?

[Em]

I haven't thought about Big D in a while. I miss her.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah, I know. Me too. Let's go to the graveyard. We'll find her.

[Em]

Another one I thought was you could bring if you were having like a truly a me time experience or if you felt brave enough to do this with Leona. I say brave in terms of mess is that the two of you could go out and have a Bob Ross day and like, do a little painting.

[Christine]

Or something cute and paint, like, what we see and like, little trees. Oh, that's cute.

[Em]

M. Another one is card games. Board games. Already said that. Yoga. Host a book club. Spooky book club out there and sit.

[Christine]

On the little benches and do a book club. That's a great idea.

[Em]

And then I will say there was a lot of opinions online about. Hi, Mimi's. Someone just woke up from a nap. Why?

[Christine]

Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking.

[Em]

That there was a lot of controversy on witch's opinions of all you should be doing in a grave because, like, in a graveyard. Because I guess graveyard dirt is incredibly powerful. You can get herbs from over there and certain plants from over there.

[Christine]

Oh, I see. Like, as far as witchy, like, as, like. Yeah.

[Em]

Yes. I would. I would redirect people to other sources other than myself on what's appropriate.

[Christine]

There's two, like, magic. I feel like, maybe. Yeah, yeah. Be. Be conscientious of sourcing your materials. Yeah. Oh.

[Em]

And looking up activities to do in a graveyard. A lot of sources were like, if you're a witch, this is a great place to basically go shopping. And I was like, that doesn't feel right. That doesn't feel right.

[Christine]

Also, like, in a lot of. In some cultures, placing stones on the graves is, like, very symbolic. So, like, you don't want to be just, like, taking rocks that are meant for the family. Yeah.

[Em]

I would think if you're taking anything from there, it should be in, like, the communal random shrub next to the road.

[Christine]

You know, like, you know, make sure it's cool and everything. Yeah, that feels like a recipe for. For some trouble if you don't.

[Em]

100. And then I was just gonna throw at the end that. Fun fact. There are a lot of cemeteries that do host events, so it's kind of like, oh, cool. You know how, like, library throw events. Because they're like, please come to the library. Please come.

[Christine]

Of course. They're like, books are cool. And I'm like, I know.

[Em]

I feel like cemeteries are doing that too, where there have been in different towns, people have started doing art. Art fairs at cemeteries. They have started doing, obviously, walking tours at some of them that are more famous. There are movies in the park. In la, we have one every Halloween where they do horror movies in the cemetery, which is super cool. So, yeah, that is everything I think you can do.

[Christine]

That is so great. And the fact that we're doing this, like, I mean, as we record this, it's a Friday, October 3rd, but, like, spooky season is upon us. Us. Like, I. I never really feel prepared for spooky season, and now I'm like, oh, in my own backyard. I can just kind of wander around and, like, it's under all these beautiful trees, so it's like, oh, as fall rolls in, it is the most beautiful time to go there. So. Yeah, I really actually. This was. I don't know why this was my Halloween wish, but thank you for making it come true.

[Em]

Yeah, I. Well, if. If it weren't you and it was someone who does not make such a mess, I would have also suggested, like, go carve pumpkins out in the cemetery or something, but that just seems Like a real house.

[Christine]

You know me. Yeah, yeah, you know me and my. Yeah, it's gonna be a bad bet. I probably won't be asked back, but I.

[Em]

No, but I. I mean, honestly, how cool would that be, too, if, like, one day Leona wants to have, like, birthday parties in the summertime?

[Christine]

See, I. I mean, listen, she'd just be. My mom would be like, not again. Been there, done this. But I. She doesn't go to Catholic school, so, you know, that would be a little easier, I think, than inviting my old friends who were like, like my old classmates who are like, I don't think my mom will like this very much.

[Em]

I'd go to that party. That sounds fun as hell, but.

[Christine]

Yeah, you. You would. That's why I feel like we missed out, you know, having each other in our class.

[Em]

I know. Anyway, I weren't read.

[Christine]

The world wasn't ready.

[Em]

I, I, I hope that you learned something that you can go do. I like the idea a lot. Bingo. Scavenger hunts make a win.

[Christine]

I can't believe, like, I never thought of all these things. Like, I was so goddamn bored in, in middle school, high school, like, like playing by myself, not making out with a single soul. And meanwhile. And all I'm doing is reading and journaling. I could have been doing scavenger hunts. Like, I'm just saying.

[Em]

I, I think it would be if I were a kid and I had access to an interesting yard and my mom grew up there who knew, like, all the ins and outs of it, and I knew that there was, like, maybe treasure around there or, like, oh, let's. Let's go buy a. Let's go find a balloon in the basement and blow it up and, like, go find someone who has a birthday today. Like, things like that. I think that. Or I really need you to do the horse scope one and, like, go find if people are compatible with each other. I think that'd be so fun.

[Christine]

Do you think that I would get in big trouble if I did that on TikTok? Because I feel like that could be really a fun little. Like, I don't know, fun little. I think there would be someone who has disrespectful. And I don't want it. I'm not saying I don't want people to say that. I just don't want it to actually be, you know, just so. I'm trying to. I need to feel out the situation. Chime in, folks, if that's. If that's something that feels way not cool, because I would love to spend more time there. And I feel like there's. There's rarely anybody in there, and it's maintained beautifully. Like, the people who. Who. It's a private cemetery, so people who, like, put money into it, you know, take good care of it, but there's rarely anyone in there, so I'd like to take walks up there and like, just sit and, you know, they have benches. It's really beautiful. So, yeah, it would be cool to, like, get more time.

[Em]

We could also. I like that. I mean, also, if you wanted to team up, I. You know how much I love ancestry. If you just sent pictures of the ones you're doing, I would happily learn everything I could about them for you.

[Christine]

And then we could. We could be like, oh, how? Like, how does this. How is this compatible?

[Em]

Dude, that's like that show with the investigator and the psychic.

[Christine]

Huh?

[Em]

So you do the horoscope and the tarot. I'll try to find as much history as I can. And then that'll be the. That's the tick tock right there. Did we just do that?

[Christine]

All right, wow. See, this is what happens. And we haven't even started the intermission yet, and we're already.

[Em]

I know it.

[Christine]

Rock and rolling. I think that's what we should talk about. Are we. Are you done yet or no?

[Em]

Nope. The.

[Christine]

Oh, okay, good. Because I'm ready to jump into this brand new idea and I do have to pee, so that's perfect.

[Em]

Okay, we're gonna go pee and then we're gonna do Patreon, and then we're gonna do Prime.

[Christine]

Awesome story. I loved it. Don't change a thing. No notes.

[Em]

Stay perfect, baby.

[Christine]

Yeah, Stay perfect, baby. No notes. I loved. Feels like a red flag when a mobile company says their favorite word is no. But then I like, realize it's Mint Mobile and they're like, oh, that's because we say no to all the other stuff like that. People are used to dealing with contracts, monthly bills, I mean, overages, hidden fees, no bs. And like, that's why we tried Mint Mobile and it has lived up to the hype. 15amonth and that's that. Like, no. No BS, no extra dollars, no joke.

[Em]

No joke over here with Mint Mobile. And I mean, you ditch overpriced wireless and their jaw dropping monthly bills, unexpected overages, and hidden fees, and plans start 15amonth, like Christine said at Mint. And all plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.

[Christine]

You can use your own phone with Any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number and your contacts, so don't worry about that. We love Mint Mobile. They've just become a cool service. And I do recommend them to pretty much everyone looking for a lower monthly bill. So ready to say yes to saying no? Make the [e-mail] ATWD that's mintmobile.com ATWD Upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to 15amonth. Limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See MIT Mobile for details. We have an aura frame downstairs that is like above kind of the little bar area. And we're having Leona's birthday party. And so I was all excited and I put like, I selected which photos I wanted to display that day. Like, all photos of her. You know, you can, like, pin one. And so she loves to just, like, put one of her own face on there with, like, red flag, I guess. But she's four. Yeah. Aura Frames are great. They make an awesome gift. I may or may not be giving them away to some people in my life this year.

[Em]

I think Aura Frames was probably the item I got the most people last year for Christmas. Yes. My mom got one. My stepdad got one. My mom got one for the basement. My siblings who live with my mom also got one. My mom has eight of them.

[Christine]

Right. Like in one.

[Em]

Eventually, every photo frame is going to be moving around like Harry Potter. I don't know.

[Christine]

It's like, oh, it's going to be. Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Em]

Aura frames was named the best digital photo frame by Wirecutter. And it's easy to see why. You can save on the perfect gift that keeps on giving by visiting or frames.com and for a limited time, listeners can get $20 off their best selling Carver mat frame with Code Drink.

[Christine]

It's so beautiful. That's a U R A frames.com promo code drink. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Please terms and conditions apply. All right, well, we're back from another rousing business meeting where we've changed the world yet again. Like, how often can we do it?

[Em]

So welcome, everybody.

[Christine]

Yeah, again, you're welcome. So, you know, m. Do you remember what your Halloween wish was yesterday when we discussed today's episode?

[Em]

No, I. I really don't.

[Christine]

You asked for something about candy and, you know, I had already. I. I said, absolutely, I'm gonna find it. And I did.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Just to, like, lay the groundwork here. I did. But at first When I Googled it, I was like, oh, I've already done the Candyman, Dean Coral. I've already done O. His name is Brian or o', Brien. And he. He killed his own child, like, with poison pixie sticks, like. So I've done those, you know, kind. But I found a candy murder that is completely different from that I came Cannot believe. I guess I should say a disappearance, because I have never heard of this story. This is the disappearance of Helen Brock, the heiress to the Brock candy fortune. B, R, A, C, H. Shut the hell up. Are you kidding me?

[Em]

Your brain plus the Internet is unstoppable.

[Christine]

I mean, I didn't think so, but now I might agree with you. I was very like, well done. I was like, how is this? And then I found a couple episodes like True Crime all the Time. Did an episode. The only other one I could really find was Crime Junkie. But they. They only did a bonus episode. So I was like, pay for it. And I was like, no. So you know what?

[Em]

Also, this is. I'm sure you're about to tell us this, but Brock, that's the one that makes the candy corn, which is very Halloween.

[Christine]

That's exactly right. They make the candy corn and they make candy hearts, too, I think. Was there other, like, really big and, like, caramel animals, but yeah, they make the candy corn so. Holy. I hadn't even really put that together. That.

[Em]

How perfect.

[Christine]

Here we go. And it's like I did it on purpose, but not really. It's like you suggested it and I found it, and it was perfect.

[Em]

Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. I just looked up their tail, the products they sell, so that.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. Do you want to say some so that, like, we can give people an idea of, like, how massive this brand is? Just like.

[Em]

Sure. Yeah. They make the like. Like the main jelly beans, like, not. Oh, they make like, not. Not jelly belly, but like, those big thick ones for Easter with like.

[Christine]

Oh, those. Yes. Okay. So they. They're, like, really into the holiday candy, then. I guess they are.

[Em]

They're on the web on Google. If you type in Brock's candy, the first thing it says is Brock seasonal candy. So.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. So, okay, that makes sense.

[Em]

So, yeah, I'm sure they do the caramels for Halloween and then they do peppermint for peppermint by lights or pieces. Like the. The big, thick, pillowy peppermint ones.

[Christine]

Yes. Oh, I like those.

[Em]

That for Christmas. And then the peppermint candy in general is them the circles with the red and white stripe?

[Christine]

Yes. So they're like the very like, basic like, but not in a bad way, but just like the original.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Candy brand. I feel like in the US like the. The big one for. For seasonal candy. So. Yeah. So Brock Box, very successful brand of candy. Very fitting here. I. How. What do you feel about candy corn?

[Em]

I don't insult me like that.

[Christine]

I don't feel good about it either.

[Em]

I know Xandy likes it. I don't even want to talk about it.

[Christine]

I know. And he's like vegan. And I'm like, what a ridiculous thing to miss.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

From being not vegan. You know, he's like, I just miss candy corn. I'm like, you're sick.

[Em]

You know, I can't even. And I have to ask, was he a candy corn person? Where like, he would have like, like three or four and he was like, oh, that's enough. Or did he do it like.

[Christine]

No, he, like loved them. Like, he would like eat them like a person eats an am. Eats a handful of eminent. Like, it was gross.

[Em]

I gave him a shot just now.

[Christine]

I. I know you tried to give him an out. And he said as a. As himself. He staunchly remains in his position. And I just can't imagine like a.

[Em]

Like a squirrel cheekful of like just chewing into a big wall of candy corn.

[Christine]

And they're so waxy. It's like, damn it, that's disgusting. I'm. I'll be so honest. And I love lots of weird things. We know that. So I'm sorry, everyone. I know there are candy corn die hards out there. I see you. Because there are some things that I feel that way about that I'm sure most don't agree with, but I just can't get there for you.

[Em]

There's a. There's a pot for every lid.

[Christine]

But I mean a lid for every pot.

[Em]

I just don't. I just. I'm not that for you. I'm. I just don't get it.

[Christine]

I just refuse to be that lid for your pot.

[Em]

I'm just. I'm not her. Go somewhere else.

[Christine]

Don't cover me me. Don't cover your pot with my lid. If you know what I'm saying.

[Em]

And also stifle you. You eat your shitty candy corn with a lidless. Lidless. Go for it.

[Christine]

Lidless candy corn. And also, if you think about it like an entire candy fortune was basically built off this. And now it's more symbolic. I feel like candy corns everywhere. Like, visually, not necessarily like the can. It has staying power. This stuff I don't know why, but it's still. Still a mainstay.

[Em]

As someone who owns candy corn, corn or no, Xandy, doesn't anymore. I. I would like to see someone actually take all candy corn and stack it as if it is a cob of candy corn.

[Christine]

Oh. As a cob of candy.

[Em]

Because, genius, they are oversized.

[Christine]

They're supposed to be a kernel.

[Em]

They're supposed to be corn kernels.

[Christine]

So, like, I never got that.

[Em]

Why hasn't anyone just taken a big. Maybe someone has disgusting piece of candy.

[Christine]

Like core, and then just has to have done that.

[Em]

Use frosting, and put a bunch of little corn.

[Christine]

It's a thing, is it? It's absolutely a thing. It looks like my nightmare. I've been candy corn, cob. Candy corn on the cob.

[Em]

Okay. At least someone's done it. I mean, that's disgusting, but at least someone's done it.

[Christine]

Like, I never really understood that this was supposed to look like the changing colors of a corn kernel in the shape of a corn kernel. I think I just. My brain never really.

[Em]

Well, technically, the orange part should be lighter yellow. Yellow. It should be from white to yellow. So it should be white, white, yellow and yellow.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

But I hate this altogether. There's no. There's no rhyme or reason to why this exists.

[Christine]

To, like, roll them up and then eat them, like in a bite. Makes me just want to scream.

[Em]

Really.

[Christine]

It does.

[Em]

And I'm just hated so much.

[Christine]

I'm so sorry, everyone, but that's just a heinous act. So listen, people became bajillionaires because of it. So whatever. It had its. It has its fan base. I know that, but. So we're gonna get into the disappearance of Helen Harris to the Brock candy fortune. So Helen Marie Voorhees Brock. She was born November 10, 1911, in Union Port, Ohio, to a family of postal employees. She married her high school sweetheart in 1928, but by age 21, she was divorced and was starting over.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

She eventually moved to Florida where she worked as a coat check girl. And as a coat check girl, one day she met Frank. Frank Brock, heir to the Chicago based E.J. brock & Sons candy company. He was married, but she used her feminine wiles on him. He was a much. Not a much older man, but he was an older man. I believe. I think 22 years, something like that. I believe she was 38 and he was 50 something. I mean, it could have been 15, 20 years, I don't know. But. So either way, there was an age discrepancy and there was some scandal surrounding, you know, him leaving his wife for this younger coat check girl. As you can imagine, societally speaking, they married in 1950, and their life together revolved around multiple homes in Glenview, Illinois, and Florida's Fisher island, which is like a very wealthy area. The couple were pretty quiet. They kept to themselves. They didn't socialize often. Frank, however, died in 1970, 20 years after they were married. And it was pretty unexpected. And Helen was left a widow, and she ended up inheriting every single asset.

[Em]

God, you know, that first wife was pissed.

[Christine]

Oh, yes, correct on. Correct. She ended up. I don't know that that's correct. By the way, when I say, like, correct, I would be. Yeah, Specifically. No, but what I'm saying is I don't even know if she was still alive. Like, I don't know.

[Em]

Sure. But in an imaginary world, if you found out that.

[Christine]

But you could have had that inheritance.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

In a hypothetical. Like, that's a rough one. Yeah. Like, I don't know if he had kids either, but that's. It's just rough. So either way, whatever happened, she inherited everything. Everything. And she was devastated because even though she had made it pretty clear from early on that her goal was to marry a millionaire, like, she wanted a life. She wanted a life where she could be, you know, the wife of a millionaire. Sure. And this was very important to her. But people say they actually were, you know, really in love. And when her husband died, she was just bereft. So as a result. I don't want to say as a result, but after this, as she got older and was single, she became more eccentric. So. So she fed filet mignon to the dogs. She. Which nowadays isn't even that weird, I guess. You know, like, I'm sure there's somebody who does weirder things with, like, feet, you know, people, whatever. She once chartered a plane to sit with a dying pet. Like, she went to. She charted a plane to go see. To see a dying pet. And then she poured her fortune into animal welfare. So, you know, some say eccentric. I say perfectly reasonable.

[Em]

I also. I'm not joking. It's like, okay, so you gave her dog some steak. I give my dog some steak. Like, I mean, I give my dog the scraps after I eat the good part, but maybe she's. She's got more money than me, so whatever.

[Christine]

Yeah, Really. I mean, she actually founded the Helen V. Brock foundation, which continues today. That was founded in 1974. So we want to fast forward now to 1977. It's February. Her husband has been. Been deceased for about seven years now, and she's 65. Helen checked into the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota for a routine medical visit. And afterward she stopped at the Buckskin gift shop inside the Zumbro Hotel. I can only imagine those don't exist anymore, but I hope they do. The clerk, Phyllis Ridalin, remembered Helen being in a hurry. She was shopping there and she told the clerk, clerk, I'm in a. I'm in a rush. My houseman is waiting. Which, like, we don't totally know what that means. She did have a butler back at the house.

[Em]

She said, house man. What? What man?

[Christine]

A house man.

[Em]

House man. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. So Helen purchased a 27.50 jewelry box and a 12.50 soap dish for her niece, and she asked them to wrap them up, said she was in a hurry, and this was the last independent sighting of her alive. From there, accounts kind of diverge. So airline crew on the flight to Chicago did not recall her presence on the plane. But Helen's houseman and chauffeur, which is, I guess, what most sources called her butler, but she said house man. So this chauffeur, he claimed that he picked her up at o' Hare Airport that afternoon, even though, again, airline crew on the flight to Chicago didn't recall her being on the plane. And like, on the one hand, yeah, a flight attendant probably wouldn't remember a single person on a plane.

[Em]

But were there logs of that kind of stuff? Like.

[Christine]

Well, yes, so there were. We hadn't. They hadn't gotten quite there yet. But she did have a ticket already. So there was that. But the other thing I thought was, like, this is a multi millionaire lady, like, worth $30 million. 30 to $50 million. Like, like you'd remember her. Like if you're going to remember anyone on the plane in 1970, whatever.

[Em]

Yeah, she would.

[Christine]

Imagine she's first class. I imagine she's very wealthy and looks it, right? So when they say, like, oh, the stat. The airline staff didn't remember her being on the plane or said she wasn't on the plane, I'm like, well, I can believe that account a bit.

[Em]

Sorry, I was gonna say in the 70s, like, we're. I wonder if there were pictures of her. Because I'm sure I walk by. I was gonna say, I'm sure I walk by candy moguls all the time. But like, I'm sure there's like, very rich, successful. I don't recognize.

[Christine]

I hope not, because after What? After your candy corn slander, you're probably on my list.

[Em]

You know, I just, I feel like I, I'm sure I sit by quote, famous people in their industry all the time and don't notice unless there's a picture of them. So I don't know how often she was being photo.

[Christine]

She wasn't really because she was so reserved and like she and her husband had been so private that like, she wasn't a known figure, you know, but she, you know, was a woman, a multi millionaire single woman traveling alone in the 70s. Like, I imagine she at least stood out enough for people to be like, whoa, look at that lady, her outfits.

[Em]

Maybe she had like, of an obviously richer coat or something. Yeah.

[Christine]

Who knows? Yeah. And like, of course, I assume she's flying like first class if she's like sometimes chartering planes and things. Sure. Either way. So the, the flight attendants say, nope, she was not on the plane. Her houseman, which like, again, slightly debated. Some people say they don't know why she said, my houseman is waiting. Some people claim it's this Jack Matlick, but he claims he picked her up at o' Hare Airport that afternoon so that she had been on the flight and landed in Chicago. Matlic said Helen spent the next four days at her 18 room Glen View mansion. And he insisted that she made no phone calls and saw no visitors. Visitors. And that On Monday morning, February 21, he then drove her back to O' Hare for a flight to her Florida condo. But Helen never arrived in Florida and was never seen again. Okay, so that's why we say the gift shop is like the only like sort of third person sighting of like someone who isn't involved at all.

[Em]

And was this, was this a gift shop in the airport or was this just a gift shop?

[Christine]

No. So she had actually, it was inside the Zumbro Hotel. I don't know how you could forget such a thing.

[Em]

Right, sorry.

[Christine]

She. No, no, she had actually stopped. She had actually had an appointment at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota for a routine medical visit. And she came out with a full clean, clean bill of health and went to a gift shop in the hotel. I, I'm assuming maybe that's where she was staying, but I don't actually know that. But the clerk remembers her being in a hurry and saying her house man is waiting. Which didn't really make sense because it.

[Em]

Would be her driver.

[Christine]

Right. And she was supposed to be flying to meet her house man, you know what I mean, on a flight, so to Chicago. And he was gonna pick her up. So it didn't make sense.

[Em]

Like, it could have been, like, a slip of the tongue, maybe of, like, the wrong person.

[Christine]

My, my, my. I have to catch a flight or something. But, yeah, it's just odd. Or maybe she just. Maybe the cashier was chatty. Right. And, like, she just wanted an excuse to get out. Sure. You know, who knows?

[Em]

Sure.

[Christine]

Either way, he says, oh, yeah, I totally picked her up. She was here for four days, and then I drove her back to the airport, and she flew to Florida. Immediate next bullet point is called suspicion on Jack Matlick. So here we go. Police quickly turn their attention to Matlick, who claimed to be the last one to see her alive during the very weekend Helen was supposedly home for those four days that he claimed. Here's what he did. And the house. He scrubbed down the maid's quarters. He ordered a meat grinder attachment for Marshall Fields. He had one of her Cadillacs detailed inside and out. But not the other ones. He called a decorating and cleaning service on Sunday night requesting urgent work.

[Em]

He killed her. Someone killed her, and he knows it.

[Christine]

Like, ple. Like, please. I mean, yeah. Visited her safe deposit box the same Monday morning he claimed to have dropped her off at o'. Hare. There. And here's some financial irregularities. One account says Matlick cashed six checks worth $13,000. Another says they were. They were 11, totaling over 15,000. But they were dated February 17th and 18th, and they were allegedly signed by her the days she was returning from Rochester. It just didn't make any sense. But because seven of those checks went straight to Matlick, and handwriting experts agreed the signatures were not Helen's. But then when they did further testing, they said they didn't agree that they were Matlick's signature either. So.

[Em]

So I. So maybe another person killed her, and then he's cleaning it up. I mean, it sounds like the money's going to him.

[Christine]

Like, but that's just the checks. Yeah.

[Em]

I.

[Christine]

My guess. My guess as to why they didn't match Matlic's is because. Because he maybe had really been practicing. Like, maybe he really was practicing to try and get her signature right and was able to change his own. I don't know. Maybe that's, like. Maybe that's not possible, but something. I'm like, that's not enough for me. If he. If they say, oh, the signatures were not Helen's, like, that's enough of a red flag. Somebody.

[Em]

100. Yeah.

[Christine]

And he. He has something to do with it. I mean, look at him. A legend. Allegedly. Okay. So Matlick actually told investigators to give him a polygraph test, like a lie detector test. And they were. Which, again, like, why? Why are you doing that? That's weird. He didn't fail them, but they were both inconclusive.

[Em]

Okay. It's weird at all that he, like, demanded it.

[Christine]

Yes, I think so.

[Em]

It's like, I'll prove. It's like he's almost feigning guilt by so desperately trying to be, like, being like, I'm innocent.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so two reporters, he angrily insisted, I don't know who killed Helen Barack, and I have no idea what happened to her. But Helen's brother believed Matlick killed her without any outside help. And a federal agent later claimed the same belief, that this agent also believed that Matlic killed her, and that was the end of the story. But Matlic was never charged. He died in 2011 at age 79. So he took his version of events to the grave. And I will also add one more weird thing that happened was they spoke with his wife, and she claimed that on the night that. That Helen was supposedly flying in from Chicago. I'm sorry. To Chicago, from Minnesota, that Matlick called his wife. Wife. And told her, I need to stay a few days here or I need to stay overnight or for a few days. And she said that was completely out of the ordinary. Like, he never had to stay several days at the house. Like, that was just really weird. And so that also just throws some suspicion. Like, if he was doing all this, like, hiring urgent cleaning services, having her car detailed, scrubbing, and. And his normal routine was not an overnight stay. It's like, what are you doing? You know?

[Em]

Yeah, no, that's. I mean. I mean, it's. Every single bit of it is.

[Christine]

It's so shady. So shady. So that's why it's confusing, because we get to Richard Bailey and his horse mafia, and then you're like, wait a minute. This guy also probably, like, I don't know. It's hard to say, but, oh, okay. He's another person of interest. So Richard Bailey, he's a con man. He's a professional con artist, specifically using racehorses as his kind of, like, tool to cheat people out of their money. He targeted wealthy women with little knowledge of the horse racing business and would be the slick salesman and, like, convince them to purchase these horses, these race horses. So as just to give you an idea, in 1975, Helen bought three horses from him, from this guy, Richard Bailey. Bailey, for $98,000. And that is in 1975. Money. She spent 98 grand on these three horses. And then her friends later said to her, you better, like, value these horses. Get them appreciated, professional. Yeah, exactly. Because he had raised.

[Em]

That's a goat. I'm sorry.

[Christine]

Whoa. What if they were like. It was a goat the whole time.

[Em]

I was trying to make a stupid age. I'm so.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, we know, Know. We heard.

[Em]

Really burst out of my mouth. I really should have just kept it shut. Your turn.

[Christine]

You really. It felt like a petting zoo had entered the chat, you know, I'm so sorry, Christine.

[Em]

I don't know what happened there. I really wasn't in charge of my own mouth in that moment.

[Christine]

Please don't apologize. I love to see you in action.

[Em]

The humiliation.

[Christine]

No, no, I don't. No, no, don't be humiliated.

[Em]

I had no reason to interrupt you like that. It just.

[Christine]

Can I be honest? You've said way worse puns than that, so don't worry.

[Em]

Thank you. Just kidding.

[Christine]

Sometimes I don't even laugh. At least this one got me. So she spent almost 100 grand on these things, and then they. They were later valued by professionals at under 20 grand.

[Em]

Oh, no, that's a.

[Christine]

Because horses, they were all. It was a huge scam. They were all on their way out. Like, they were like farm horses, basically. They were, like, out of the racing business. Business. So these appraisers looked at them. Oh, and these are not. You can't race these. And if you do, you're not going to win anything. Like, they're.

[Em]

Yeah, well, yeah, like, they've retired. Like, they. Because they're not qualified anymore. Oh, no. I mean, thank God for her. Like, 50 to 80 million dollars is like 20 grand's a drop in the bucket or 100 grand.

[Christine]

Right, right, right.

[Em]

But still. That's so.

[Christine]

But so. And part of it was that he had actually pitched, like, a whole nother business plan and she was going to go forward with. With it. But then she talked to her girlfriends and they were like, you need to, like, get this checked out. So that's when she found out she'd already been scammed, like, this major amount. Like, there was no denying it. And he actually. So the investing investment she was about to put down was150,000 extra on top of what she had already put down. And so. And this had been years, like, she was very close with this person. So there's also, like, this personal element involved where, like, he apparently. What he did. Which. I heard this on an episode of True Crime. All the time they were talking about an interview he did where he would explain that to con these women, he was like, I wasn't really attracted to them, but I wanted their money. So I would find one thing I found attractive about them and focus on that while I conned them. And then once I got the hooks in them, I was easily able to feel disgusted about them and discard them.

[Em]

And it's like, holy shit.

[Christine]

Hey. What the. Whoa. And so this had been spending years as, like, a close friend and potentially more to Helen. I don't know that. But he sure claimed that he would try to woo them by being, you know, romantic and making them feel like they were so beautiful and all this. And they, like, stayed in places. They went to New York together. You know, like, they were very close. And so when she found out that he had had, like, scammed her and a lot of other women, you know, she was not happy. She apparently confronted him and claimed that, you know, she was gonna get the board of whatever state they were in involved and all this. And so, you know, you don't, as a con man, like to hear that any sort of federal regulators are gonna be coming in. So she. She. She threatened him for that reason. And that's why he's also listed as, like, a potential.

[Em]

That's a good reason. That's a very.

[Christine]

That's what I'm saying. Especially because when you look at it, they later. Investigators later uncovered a much broader racket that he was pulling. He had this violent horse dealer named Silas Jane. And they were.

[Em]

That just sounds like a villain, that Silas Jane.

[Christine]

I mean, it's like. It feels like our. It feels like the emethy and the graveyard kids, like, arch nemesis.

[Em]

Oh, my God. Emet. The graveyard kid. And Silas Jane. I feel like he's got, like, 14 different guns hidden in his boot. Like, he's.

[Christine]

Yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Em]

He's got a cape. He's got a cape.

[Christine]

And, you know, he's like. Has horses on his side, which is.

[Em]

Like, oh, we're in trouble. Yeah.

[Christine]

So they would, like, inflate these horses. They would not inflate the horses. I'm sorry. They inflated. What is. This is a real horse valued at $100,000.

[Em]

Like, they would inflate the price.

[Christine]

Yes, Correct.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

They would inflate the price. Not the horse.

[Em]

Is the big. Like the one Macy's Day balloon that went.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Parade float. Yeah. That would be a wild racket if they were like, this is a real horse horse, not a parade. Float.

[Em]

Okay, sorry. I'm sorry.

[Christine]

So. No, no, I'm sorry. We're all sorry. So what is it? We are sorry. So they were accused of selling these horses at inflated prices and even staging insurance fraud schemes. They would do this by killing the show horses for, like, insurance purposes and then like, pretend like they died in an accident and then get money off of it. Yeah, horses. And then like, get the money from the insurance. It's sick. So journalist James Elisela wrote a book called who Killed the Candy Lady? Which I did add to my Goodreads, but I have not had time to read it because I picked this topic yesterday. But it looks really interesting. And in this book, he argues that Helen had uncovered this horse insurance fraud and was preparing to go to authorities. And he believes that that is why she was silent, silenced, so to speak. Sure, I could believe that. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. You're getting into like a multi million dollar con artist and you're getting in the way of this guy. Right? And it's like.

[Em]

And I have a feeling, because she wasn't able to sense this immediately without her, like, girls backing her up. I guarantee you one of them was like, I bet he's a scammer. You should look into that.

[Christine]

Like, so that is what happened. 100 friends.

[Em]

That was just the. Asked the horses though, right?

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

I feel like they, I feel like she was going to find out. This is like, totally in my head. But I feel like she went to brunch with them and she was like, girl, you were right. All the horses were like, so I got so ripped off. And I feel like they said there's something even deeper.

[Christine]

Like, I bet it.

[Em]

I bet you weren't the first person. I bet this is a much bigger con. And I feel like that's what she got into.

[Christine]

She knew that because she knew he sold horses to all the other women in this, like, country club. So she knew almost immediately, like, oh, so he's doing this to everyone.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

And he's, he's like putting on a show for all these people. I don't necessarily think she knew how big it was, like, how. And that he had other associates and that he was like, killing horses. I mean, I don't think she necessarily knew that, but she unfortunately challenged that. Right. Like, said, I'm gonna expose you. And yeah, that could have been retaliation. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, there's no way to know. But that's what his theory is. One witness, Joseph Plemons, later Claimed Helen had been kidnapped, beaten, and shot, and then destroyed in an Indiana steel furnace on Silas Jane's orders.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

And, you know, a lot of people believe that because that's the running theory because they've never found any trace of her body. And this guy really was like a mafia style violent. Oh, my God.

[Em]

Destroyed in a furnace is such a way to put it.

[Christine]

That's like a steel furnace, is like, melt. Like that melted steel. I mean, it's really dark. Yeah.

[Em]

Oh, God. And they've said they've never found her body. No trace. She's. But then, I mean, do they have any idea of how. I think you just said it, how she was killed? Like, was it a stabbing? Was it a shooting?

[Christine]

They said she was kidnapped, beaten and shot. And shot.

[Em]

Okay. Because.

[Christine]

And this guy, Plemons. And, like, my thought is, why would. I mean, people lie for crazy reasons, but why would you put yourself in this? He also alleged that Matlic was involved as part of the crew. So that Matlick, who was, by the way, the. The house man.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah. Which is like, what in the world is going on here?

[Em]

I don't know. I feel like maybe they. I still think the houseman is kind of.

[Christine]

I know, Me too.

[Em]

This feels a little too. What's that? Like, zebra stripes sentence? No.

[Christine]

Okay, the gum. What are you talking about?

[Em]

No, there's a sentence, and it's like, something about zebras and stripes, but basically it means that, like, it's usually the simplest answer, like, oh, that's what the. The phrase is. But, like, I feel like this is, like, so over the top when, like, the. The houseman was acting really suspicious and signing checks into his name, like, and.

[Christine]

Signing checks with fraudulent signatures.

[Em]

I feel like this random horse man would have just fled. He would have just heard, oh, you're gonna expose me? I'm out of here.

[Christine]

Yeah, so it's. Well, he lived in town. Like, he knew her whole community because he's working. He's working at. She meets him, like, through her social circle. So it's also like, maybe he stands more to lose than. I don't know.

[Em]

I don't know. Maybe there was some combination where, like, the houseman did it. And then horse guy came in and was like, oh, where is she? And, like, caught the butler. And then he was like, don't worry, I've got a guy. And I wanted her out of the way anyway.

[Christine]

Opposite of the zebra. Zebra stripe theory. He just happens to walk in as the dead body is laying on the floor, and he's like, I want my horse money.

[Em]

They're like, good.

[Christine]

I wanted her dead too.

[Em]

Yeah, I actually. I really flip out there. No, the houseman is way too suspicious for nothing going on.

[Christine]

So weird about that.

[Em]

Like, for him to be scrubbing and cleaning and detailing and everything and also putting money in his name, like something happened there. But I do believe that she told him, like, I'm gonna expose him and, like, he would have reacted poorly, but I. It feels too, because then if your point is that he was already of that community and everything, wouldn't he want it to be a clean kill, like, so that nobody caught on or even heard that she went missing?

[Christine]

Well, but if it was, then it would behoove them to say that the dorm. That the houseman did it. You know, like, it could have been so clean that, like, nobody knew. And then they all looked at the houseman, the butler. The butler did it.

[Em]

I don't know. Could they. Could they have killed her in her house so it looked like the houseman and then he spent the whole weekend, like, panic cleaning so nobody would think it was him? I don't know.

[Christine]

That's. That's interesting because also it's like, I don't necessarily know why the houseman would kill her. I mean, for the money, obviously. Like, he's trying to sign checks over, but, like, it's not working. He's not doing a good job of that. If he's, like, getting caught immediately.

[Em]

Maybe since it was a third handwriting. This is fucking crazy. I know. Everyone leave me alone.

[Christine]

But maybe horse guy zebra has lost its stripes.

[Em]

I repeat, the zebra is fully naked.

[Christine]

Murphy's law did not apply. Why?

[Em]

Maybe horse guy killed.

[Christine]

Is it Murphy's law?

[Em]

Murphy's law is everything bad happens or.

[Christine]

Everything can go wrong will go wrong. What's the one. What is the thing? Oh, my God. Occam's razor is where it's like. It's usually the simplest explanation.

[Em]

Is that what I was thinking of? Not zebra stripe.

[Christine]

Well, I don't know what the. You were thinking of. I know Occam's razor is like the term for like. The simplest is most likely what it is.

[Em]

There was a whole lawn or.

[Christine]

I'm sure there is. I'm sure I'm not just saying that.

[Em]

Hey. God, I'm. I'm so upset about this now. If you're. If you hear hoof beats, don't think zebras.

[Christine]

Oh, that's cool. I like that.

[Em]

That was. There was a whole episode called zebras because Stabler says it in the beginning. And then the irony is the way they solve the crime is that he's.

[Christine]

Supposed to be do that.

[Em]

Okay, so anyway, what if horse guy killed her in the home and like, it was served as a message to others in some way or, like, tried to like, frame the, the houseman horse guy goes away. But, or maybe they made a deal where like, he's like, like they never.

[Christine]

Found any evidence, right? Like, I mean, he claimed blood everywhere.

[Em]

There's just blood everywhere. And then what if the other guy is the third handwriting on those checks to be like, clean this up.

[Christine]

But, like the, the, but see, this is where I, I think that, I think the guy wrote the handwriting because it was so similar that they had to like, test it. But it, well, maybe not. Maybe you're right. Maybe they just copied it. This is killing me. But I don't know. Like, don't you think the simplest one is that like, just one person was involved or, like.

[Em]

Yeah, the simplest one is the house man did this.

[Christine]

I think the simplest one is that the person she had like, a public beef with did it. But I don't know if I believe, but I don't know if that's true because, like, he was shady. But maybe they were saying, like, look at the house man, look how shady he is. Like, maybe they were trying to frame him. I don't know. Or maybe he did it for the money.

[Em]

I feel I, I, there's no reason for him to be cleaning like that unless there was blood everywhere.

[Christine]

Well, he claimed that it was his routine. And then nobody could be like, you're lying, like, because they don't know. Like, he just worked there with her. So he was never convicted, Bailey, of Helen's murder. This is, we're back to horse mafia, by the way. But in 1995, he did plead guilty to racketeering for defrauding Helen and other wealthy women. And at sentencing, prosecutors introduced evidence linking him to a murder conspiracy, and he was given a 30 year sentence. They never secured a murder conviction for Helen's murder. Bailey protested his innocence to the end, though, and appealed multiple Times. But in 2005, the 7th Circuit rejected new hearings stating that the evidence did not prove he was innocent of conspiring to kill Helen Brock. So he was released in 2019 after serving his full term. And then in 2022, which is another book I went read, he wrote a book called Golden Tongue, the Innocent man that Killed her, question mark. Insisting that he was framed.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

And he died. He died in 2022 at the age of 93. And I'm like, I'm curious to read this book, but also, like, you were, like, defrauding women and were proven to be linked with another murderer. Like, I don't know how much I believe you either. You know, why should I trust you? But whatever. We. It's just tragic because we still don't know. And they're, of course, course, competing theories that we've mentioned some of. So one is that Matlick killed her alone for financial gain. One is that the horse mafia, led by Silas Jane's orders, ordered her death to protect their schemes. And then the other theory being that, you know, the horse mafia with Silas Jane was involved, and they ordered her death and then disposed of her body in this, like, blast. Basically, there are some discrepancies, like the independent witness sighting versus Matlic's claim of meeting her at o' Hare that, like, point to him being shady. But also, you know, and I'm pretty sure I will. I will double check this, because for some reason, it's not my notes, but I'm pretty confident that they checked, and nobody boarded the plane under her name that day.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

I'm pretty. I'm pretty confident. But back then also, like, things weren't, like, digitized and as thorough as they are today with airline stuff, so.

[Em]

So also, back then, you could just go. You could just give someone your ticket with your own name on it. They didn't ask.

[Christine]

Oh, right. True. So it's like they could just.

[Em]

Anyone could have walked on with her ticket.

[Christine]

Right, Right. So. So if the record said, like, nobody used the ticket, that's a huge red flag, too. If. If Matt, like, is saying, well, it's a red flag because he's like, oh, she came home and I saw her for four days.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

But then also, it's like, why would he say that if she was killed in Chicago by the horse mafia? I don't know.

[Em]

Know.

[Christine]

It's so weird.

[Em]

M. I'm telling you, I think it was the house guy because he is trying to cover tracks and nobody else is.

[Christine]

Yeah. No, you're right.

[Em]

Horse tracks.

[Christine]

I think you're right. I think you're right.

[Em]

Sorry.

[Christine]

Unfortunately, her. Helen. Her remains were never found. A marble monument stands in Union Port, Ohio. And now we can look into what the symbolism is and what shape it is and learn more about it. Finally.

[Em]

It's a big candy corn.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Imagine that was be so cool. Her dogs, Candy and Sugar, are both buried there, too.

[Em]

That's precious. And sad.

[Christine]

And it's sad because like just what we were talking about earlier. The tomb bears Helen's name, but is empty. Right. Because they never found. And so, like, I can of course understand when you need closure for, you know, something like this, like, so horrific or if you just want a place to. To visit a. A deceased loved one. But yeah, Union Port. I don't know where that is. I think that's not far from me. Anyway, maybe we can give her like a little. Little. We bring her some candy next time we're nearby. Yeah. But. Yeah. So that's the story of the disappearance of Helen Brock. I know it's kind of like a quick story, but there really wasn't. There's not much about it online, honestly. I mean, there are those two books, but again, I didn't have time to read that before today, so I'm sure there's some things I'm missing and some nuance I missed, but that's. Just kidding. It's literally four hours for me. Never mind. Okay. But yeah, that's the story. And you said a candy crime. And I said, I love that.

[Em]

Thank you. That was a good one. You know, of course. Do you have any final requests? Because next week, I think, is our actual Halloween episode. I love this Halloween, the spooky month.

[Christine]

Where we just do the request.

[Em]

So you got it.

[Christine]

And it's fun to just. Because then you can be like. You can like, be kind of vague and just say, like, candy, and it's like, oh, I'll find something. Like, it makes like a scavenger hunt.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And I said graveyard games. And you brought graveyard games.

[Em]

I appreciate Gary Vard. Activities.

[Christine]

Activities.

[Em]

I don't know.

[Christine]

That's even better.

[Em]

Trying to think if I have anything for you. Right.

[Christine]

We used up all our good ideas in the. In the intermission. I.

[Em]

Let's see.

[Christine]

How do you have anything?

[Em]

Halloween, Halloween, Halloween, Halloween candy. I'm just gonna say Halloween things. And if anyone's.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

Okay. Skeletons. Trick or treating. Costumes. Oh, costume. Like a costume part. Party.

[Christine]

Costumes. Costumes, good.

[Em]

Costume. Something where people are in costumes. So that's broad. That could be like actors. That could be costumes.

[Christine]

Is good.

[Em]

Murder mystery. Poisoned apples that you bob pour. Okay, go. Costume.

[Christine]

Costume.

[Em]

Okay, that's vague phrase. It could be anything.

[Christine]

Or is that both of ours?

[Em]

That's. That's. That's me to you.

[Christine]

Oh, that's mine. Okay. Excellent. Yes. Costume is good.

[Em]

What's your story? What's your. To me.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay, let me think. Sorry. We also have a meeting in five minutes, you guys. So we're like, clearly. We're both clearly watching the clock. Like, okay, we got five minutes to come up with one word. Can Christine do it? Probably not. Okay, I. I want to say, like, my gut reaction is, like, I don't know why, but, like, a haunt. That doesn't really make sense. I was gonna say, like, haunted homes. Like. Like a story about someone living alongside their ghost. Does that make sense?

[Em]

I can try to find that.

[Christine]

Like, maybe. Maybe a story where somebody, like, was actively living alongside. I don't know.

[Em]

No, I'll. I'll see what I can do.

[Christine]

Ghost roommates. I don't know.

[Em]

Sure. Perfect.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Okay, great.

[Christine]

Okay. Haunted. Haunted home. That's my turn.

[Em]

Are you kidding me? No.

[Christine]

Haunted house.

[Em]

Okay, fine.

[Christine]

House.

[Em]

Fine. A haunted home. Yeah, a home. Home. Haunted home. Yes.

[Christine]

Home. Haunted home. That's cute. Yeah.

[Em]

Okay, got it.

[Christine]

All right, well, we're gonna go pee real quick before our meeting.

[Em]

That's right. And we will see you next week for, I think, our Halloween episode. Or at least the one before that.

[Christine]

It is our Halloween week because the one after is November 2nd.

[Em]

Oh, okay. Good to know. Is it? That can't be right. Is it? This is the 19th. This one come out the 19th.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

And then the one after that would be plus 7 is 26. So then that one's our Halloween.

[Christine]

But this one comes out the 19th.

[Em]

Oh, I see what's happening now.

[Christine]

Okay, the next one. Sorry, the next one we record will be the Halloween one. Yeah.

[Em]

Ah, okay. Well, see you for Halloween and.

[Christine]

And see you soon. That's why we drink.

[Em]

And Doug, here we have the Limu imu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

[Christine]

Fascinating.

[Em]

It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Christine]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Em]

Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com savings. Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.

[Christine]

What are your holiday traditions?

[Em]

Putting up a minimum of six trees.

[Christine]

Decorating every room with a different theme. Whatever it is, here's one way to make those traditions extra special. Start the season with Etsy. On Etsy, you'll discover original pieces from small shops to help you celebrate it your way. Shop Etsy for holiday decor that makes you feel seen. Special starts on Etsy. Tap the banner to shop now.