E457 Segway Fun Facts and Inflatable Birthday Tiaras

Summary

And That's Why We Drink: Episode 457 – "Segway Fun Facts and Inflatable Birthday Tiaras"

Released: November 9, 2025
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Para Pods Production

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Episode Overview

This episode features Christine and Em catching up on personal stories—ranging from haunted theater trips and birthday dog celebrations to serendipitous bookstore encounters—before diving into the chilling true crime of the newly identified "Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee" and the haunted history of Cincinnati's Music Hall. Blending warmth, wit, and a touch of melancholy, the episode traverses theatrical hauntings, unsolved mysteries, and the persistent need for whimsical comfort in challenging times.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Updates and Catching Up (04:00–25:00)

• Christine and Em’s Backs and Bodies (04:00–07:00)

  • Shared laments about physical aches—hip flexors, back pain, the realities of parenting and carrying kids and pets.
  • Christine jokes: "Welcome to our podcast. It's a medical show where we diagnose each other with no real medical expertise necessary." [03:35]

• Parenthood & Pet Stories

  • Em discusses the joys and woes of wrangling their dog, Hank, and Christine shares updates on her daughter Leona’s energetic habits.
  • Christine's daughter and Em's dog "are both in that phase where they'd rather be carried, but also want to zoom around knocking things over." [05:54–06:28]
  • "Weirdly, her and Hank are in the same place." – Emma [06:48]

• Travel & Listener Community (09:20–16:00)

  • Em recounts a whirlwind trip to Austin, TX, to attend an immersive theater production inspired by Em's multi-part Houdini episode—a play culminating in a live séance staged across rooms in a Victorian manor.
  • Major shout-outs to Trace, Cynthia, and the Bottle Alley Theater Company, their award-winning work, and their “obscenely kind” cast. [12:38]
  • Heartfelt stories of meeting long-time listeners and forming instant Instagram friendships.

• The Local Authors Encounter (17:32–21:54)

  • Christine describes the surreal experience of witnessing strangers pick up and use the "And That's Why We Drink" book at a local shop to plan a road trip—without knowing the author was sitting just feet away.
  • "She was flipping through the book... They literally started planning a road trip using our book. I was stunned." – Christine [18:57]

• Inflatable Birthday Tiaras and Family Lore (22:56–24:46)

  • Reminiscing about buying inflatable tiaras for their mothers (both of whom own actual jeweled tiaras), Em and Christine reflect on the oddities of family heirlooms and milestones.
  • "The only reason my mom doesn't wear the inflatable tiara is because she has two actual old tiaras." – Emma [23:21]

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2. Dog Birthdays, Milestones, & Life Changes (24:55–36:37)

• Gio's (Christine's Dog) Birthday

  • Confusion over Gio’s age ("Is he 10 or 8?"—turns out he's 10), leading to nostalgic recollections of the podcast’s start and their early friendship. [25:19–25:59]
  • Christine details Gio’s favorite activities (stealing Leona’s socks, eating cat food, family snuggles) [26:49], and plans for birthday celebrations.

• Pet Health & Growing Up

  • Em shares Hank’s recent vaccination-induced swollen lymph node; Christine empathizes, underlining the challenges of pet parenting and loving their “good boys.” [29:55–30:14]

• Updates on Long-Distance & Life Contingencies (32:00–35:48)

  • Em updates listeners on partner Allison being away for family reasons, thoughts on contingency plans in light of sociopolitical instability ("planning to have to plan"), and considering potential relocation to Canada.
  • Em shares: "We're just trying to come up with plan B's and C's and D's if things are getting worse and worse for marginalized people. And I know queer people are on that list." [33:09]

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3. Main Story 1: The Haunted Cincinnati Music Hall (39:06–92:29)

Background & Dark History (41:22–54:38)

• Built on a Potter’s Field

  • The Music Hall sits atop a massive unmarked graveyard (potter’s field) from the early 1800s, including victims of cholera outbreaks, lethal floods, and the catastrophic Moselle steamboat explosion—whose body parts "rained down through the roofs of houses." [50:06]
  • In total, up to 10,000 bodies estimated beneath the site. [52:06]

• Subsequent Institutions

  • After the potter's field: Cincinnati Orphan Asylum, hospital, Civil War military hospital, and "Pest House" (for quarantining the sick until death), all built atop the same ground.

• The German Singerbund and Sangerfest

  • Later, the property hosted a German-American singing society and the country's first Sangerfest musical festival—a nod to Cincinnati’s large German population and choral tradition. Christine and Em joke about local German family heritage and burst into German lullabies. [60:50]

Haunted Activity & Paranormal Reports (80:11–91:41)

• Hauntings Linked to the Dead

  • Cold chills, oppressive atmospheres, shadow people, mysterious music, whispers, giggling, heavy footsteps, flickering lights, and items (like a balloon) moving on their own.
  • "People feel a presence near the ballroom. They'll see shadows in photos, hear something being dragged through the halls, angry whispering, maniacal laughter... and phantom violin music." [82:15]

• Frequent Sightings:

  • The "Lady in White," children apparitions, people dressed in period clothing attending performances.
  • A child ghost warns visitors: "Don’t go in the basement—bad things happened there." [88:41]

• Creepy Specifics

  • Seats mysteriously staying down, as if an unseen presence is watching; the freight elevator moves on its own; security guards being freaked out by uncanny events.
  • One watchman: “I always knew when they were around by an icy chill, a thrill as of electricity...” [90:02]

• Christine’s Reflections

  • The combination of restless, unclaimed souls beneath a hub of artistic energy amplifies haunting activity.
  • "On top of that... people are getting emotional, theaters are already really active energetically... that would probably just mix it all up." [80:25]

Notable Quotes

• On the Moselle Explosion:
  "About a hundred skeletons had to be buried here at the Pottersfield when the steamer Moselle exploded and blew the skulls and limbs and blackened trunks of their passengers all over the... So that falling bodies fell through the roofs of houses and the remains of the victims were gathered together and buried in the potter's field." – Emma [50:06]
• On the Layered History:
  "It's like... should this be an orphanage? Maybe a hospital? Should we get a bunch of German men to sing hallelujah in here? Like, I don't know, whatever you want it to be. The world is your oyster, dude." – Emma [60:00]
• On Paranormal Activity:
  "I can get behind it being residual, but when you're intelligent and you acknowledge I'm looking for you... you stand up and literally put yourself in front of us... They're doing exactly what we want and they're probably making us so happy and we're just like, get away." – Emma [86:22]

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4. Main Story 2: "Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee" Identified (95:21–114:46)

True Crime: Case Summary & Breakthrough

• Discovery of the Body (1971)

  • "Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee": Young woman's body found under a Florida bridge, strangled with a men's belt, wrapped in a blanket.
  • No missing persons reports, so she remained a Jane Doe for 54+ years.

• Forensic Attempts at Identification

  • Multiple exhumations for new forensic clues—dental work, birth history, and isotope analysis suggesting she may have immigrated from Greece (a result later proven incorrect due to contamination from embalming fluids).
  • The case even featured on Unsolved Mysteries (1992), tips from Greek TV, but all led to dead ends.

• Breakthrough (2025)

  • In October 2025, her fingerprints were finally run through Florida’s new STORM biometric system, yielding a match to a 1970 arrest record: Maureen "Cookie" L. Minor Rowan, age 21, of Tampa.
  • Cookie was never reported missing. Her estranged husband, Charles Rowan, told family she left voluntarily; her two children grew up never knowing her fate.
  • Sheriff Patrick Breeden: "This case has been a mystery in Sumter county for almost 55 years. Today, Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee finally has a name." [106:11]
  • Cookie’s children released a public statement: "She was a mother, a daughter, a sister, and a woman who deserved a full life. Now that she has been identified, our family can begin to heal." [111:48]

Investigation Status and Lingering Questions

• Person of interest: Estranged husband (deceased, never charged).
• Many questions remain: Timeline of last days, manner and location of murder, and why she wasn’t reported missing.
• Christine notes: "It’s just so suddenly relevant... We should talk about it now." [113:42]
• Listeners with information are encouraged to contact the Sumter County Sheriff’s Office.

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5. Lighter Moments & Listener Life

• Christine opens up about the odd blend of personal humility and pride, seeing their impact in the wild; Em reflects on the power of community, spontaneous travel, and being vulnerable about current uncertainty in the world.
• Running jokes: Appalachian family tiaras, German singing societies, and the omnipresent “lady in white” ghost.
• The show’s tone deftly toggles between dark history, true crime, paranormal chills, self-deprecating humor, and sincere empathy.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “If you're connecting with something... or welcoming spirits in... It's just super haunted.” – Emma [81:11]
• “There's no missing persons report that matched her profile, so they buried her locally and she became known as Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee.” – Christine [97:19]
• “Happy B Day, Gio!... He doesn't look a day over five.” – Emma [28:31]
• “There's something going on where it's just like things are going faster and faster... Next month it's going to be where we don't even know the state of the world.” – Christine [109:33]
• “And that's why we drink.” – Christine & Emma [36:16]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | Notes | |---------------|----------------------------------------------|----------------------------------------| | 04:00–07:00 | Health woes & parenthood | Hip flexors, parenting, dog stories | | 09:20–16:00 | Austin, listener theater, Houdini play | Immersive theater experience | | 17:32–21:54 | Bookstore, book encounter | Road trip planning by strangers | | 39:06–92:29 | Main Paranormal Story – Cincinnati Music Hall| Extensive history + hauntings | | 95:21–114:46 | Main True Crime – Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee| Identification and family resolution |

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Conclusion

This episode weaves humorous life storytelling with dark historical and true crime revelations, illustrating the emotional resonance of mystery, legacy, and community—both among the living and the dearly (or not so dearly) departed. Whether diving into haunted basements or unmasking forgotten identities, Christine and Em continue making the world a little less scary—and a little more bearable—one glass of wine (or milkshake) at a time.

And that’s why we drink.

Transcript

[Emma]

It is currently spooky season and I am seeing all sorts of yard decorations as I drive home at night. And one of the most popular ones has been Pennywise out in the yard. My dog loves it. Just kidding. And if you love it, I gotta tell you, the director of it has a new horrifying story set in 1960s dairy Maine and is a story that explores the origins of Pennywise the Clown and get ready to go back to where it all began. Not only is the new HBO original series IT welcome to Dairy now streaming on HBO Max, but on the IT welcome to Dairy Official podcast, each episode will be discussed after it airs on HBO Max. HBO's it welcome to Derry podcast walks you back down the Streets of Derry 27 years before the Losers Club first formed and pulls you down into the sewers to dig in to the history, the lore and the horror of what makes Dairy Maine's most sinister suburb. And you'll hear from show creators plus cast and crew members as they talk talk about the making of the show. It is gonna be delicious everybody. I'm very, very excited. I actually have a friend who went to the screening tonight and let me know that it is just as incredible as I was anticipating. So please go check it out. I'm gonna be watching it right next to you. Stream new episodes of HBO's It welcome to Dairy Sundays on HBO Max and listen to the IT welcome to Dairy Official podcast wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. We have been using Squarespace since we started the podcast before, like since we.

[Christine]

Before we launched it. Which is.

[Emma]

Yeah, yeah. So we've been using it longer than the podcast has been around because we have been. We were building out our website and it was so easy. For two people who've never built a website, it was just kind of a plug and chug situation. They made it so user friendly.

[Christine]

It's so true. And we've stuck around with them because since then they've only gotten better and more, you know, integrations, more features. For example, let me give you like a little situation here. If you're going to fundraise, which we're not right now, but you know, if we want to go to the Mothman festival and we need to fundraise for that. For example, you can fundraise directly on your website and grow your impact with built in donation tools. You can create a professional on brand website that makes it easy to accept one time or recurring contributions from your lovely fans. No, I'm kidding. With built in email campaigns and marketing tools. That's also, like, a huge selling point. You can connect with your community, inspire more people to support your cause, which is a really cool angle.

[Emma]

Yeah. Any reason you need a website? Squarespace is there for you. Head to squarespace.com drink for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code DRINK to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Christine]

So, certain periods of life, my OCD likes to jump out and give me a little scare. And it gets really active and loud and disturbing. And that is when I like to turn to no cd. Because OCD is a lot more than just stereotypes. It's serious and highly misunderstood. It is is a condition that causes people to get stuck in a cycle of stressful, unwanted thoughts, repetitive physical behaviors. If there's anything like this that sounds like it might ring true to you, I urge you to go check out no cd. Um, I was an adult when I figured out I had ocd and I didn't have no CD at the time, but since then, it has helped me very much.

[Emma]

Yeah. And not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. But OCD is highly treatable with a specialized type of therapy called erp, or Exposure Response Prevention. Now, with an ocd, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in OCD and nocd. Therapists are highly trained, so they really understand OCD and won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about.

[Christine]

Yes. ERP therapy has really changed my life, so I Recommend it. No CD therapy is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with ocd, please don't wait to get help. Go to NOCD and book a free call with our team to learn more. That's n o c d.com to Schedule A free call and learn more. Is it right? Sorry. Welcome to our podcast. It's a medical show where we diagnose each other with no real medical expertise necessary. Is it like here? Yeah, that's your hip flexor, dude. I think you gotta stretch that out because if you're laying down, you don't have the room to, like, contract it, so it's probably really tight.

[Emma]

Okay. Dr. Christine, over here.

[Christine]

I mean, listen, I told you, this is my new medical show. Dr. Christine. I'm just kidding. Please don't. I think someone can probably sue me for that, and it's. And it's probably warranted so. Allegedly.

[Emma]

But it's also. It's also a little up in my tummy. It's like. Right. It's like under the belly. It's like in my pelvic area.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's probably your hip flexor or your psoas muscle.

[Emma]

What do you do in the middle of the night? Why do you know that?

[Christine]

Honestly, thank you so much for asking. I was up till 3am last night and I was looking up all these different acupressure points for falling asleep, and it wasn't working well.

[Emma]

Psycho.

[Christine]

I've done a lot of somatic work. Trauma release exercises, that kind of thing. And the hips carry a lot of trauma and carry a lot of tension and stress. And so when they start acting up, you can kind of pinpoint what's.

[Emma]

I do carry all my stress in my butt. Fun fact.

[Christine]

Okay, that's interesting.

[Emma]

She's always a little tense. She's always tight.

[Christine]

You know, I would say stretch your hip flexor because I feel like. Or at least stretch it and see if that's where it hurts. And then you'll know like, if that's the thing or. No, I just. Sorry. My back is so f. Dude, this is why I'm doing these things all the time. Because I'm like, everything hurts. I need to like, figure out how to fix myself.

[Emma]

What are you doing? What's, What's, What's.

[Christine]

Why is your back stretching? Oh, I don't know. I just old, I think.

[Emma]

Okay.

[Christine]

And I carry a 4 year old all the time and it's like, does.

[Emma]

She actually want to be carried these days? I feel like she's just on the go.

[Christine]

No. The second they start to walk, they're like, no, I want to walk. And then they're like, walking is a lot of work. Can you carry me?

[Emma]

Like, they literally become a durableure. The magic.

[Christine]

Right. It's not exciting anymore. And they're like, can you carry me? And it's like, so I can like, look at my toy while you carry me. And I don't have to do any physical activity or look where I'm going. And it's like. I mean, I get it. I would ask to be carried too.

[Emma]

It's interesting that that feeling starts so young because it never ends. Like, I still would love to be carried instead of have to walk.

[Christine]

She does move a lot. I think it's just very. When it's like, time for bed, she's like, carry me upstairs. And I'm like, okay. But then, you know, anywhere Else she's like, let me just zoom around at lightning speed and knock over everything and everyone I can. So it really goes between two sides of the spectrum.

[Emma]

Weirdly, her and Hank are in the same place. Oh, yeah.

[Christine]

What is his take. Take on being carried? I assume he does not like it.

[Emma]

He doesn't mind it. I mean, he doesn't want it, but, like, if I have to carry him, he never fights me on it.

[Christine]

Yeah. Gio goes like this.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

He doesn't score him, but he goes like. He kind of just freaked out.

[Emma]

Like, does, like, the. Like, the. Like goes catatonic, like.

[Christine]

Yeah. They, like, freeze. Right. Like.

[Emma]

Like, I think he knows if I'm picking him up, like, there's a real reason occurring.

[Christine]

He's going to be placed somewhere.

[Emma]

But I. I did. I meant more like he's. What? You. You said something about how she's just, like, kind of just runs into everyone or. Runs.

[Christine]

Oh, yes. Very, like, hyperspeed, like.

[Emma]

Yeah. I like to say at the dog.

[Christine]

Park, that tan's exact man devil.

[Emma]

He's exactly knee. Knee. Exactly knee height.

[Christine]

That's a dangerous, dangerous height. Leona's just getting to exact counter height. And I'm like, God, here we go. Yeah. Yeah.

[Emma]

Bonking her head on everything.

[Christine]

She's been bonking her head, her 99th percentile circumference head on everything since the moment she entered my womb. Perfect.

[Emma]

Perfect.

[Christine]

Yeah. Where is Hankers? Oh, you're not in your home, are you? No. I was gonna say what a beautiful beige piece of art you have.

[Emma]

Thank you. I think we made fun of the art last time I was in here.

[Christine]

I love to talk about hotel art. It makes me laugh every time.

[Emma]

Well, how does this one make you feel? Not good. Me?

[Christine]

It looks like the back rooms a little bit.

[Emma]

It does every. I don't know why people not the.

[Christine]

Hotel, but the picture. Yeah.

[Emma]

I get there, like, oh, it's warm. It's a warm temperature color. And I'm like. But it's also.

[Christine]

What is warm? What do you mean, warm? Like, warm, like, to my soul. Because that doesn't feel right. I feel warm to my soul. It just feels like.

[Emma]

Like it just feels obviously, like. It just feels dirty. Like, it's so yellow it becomes brown, and then it's just.

[Christine]

Yeah. And then that gets kind of grungy and dingy, and it's like. Yeah.

[Emma]

Anyway, the painting is boring. Yes. I'm in a hotel, and I will be home later.

[Christine]

Yay. Hooray.

[Emma]

And Hank is. He's good. He's just chilling. He got a scratch on his nose at boarding, and I want to beat up whatever puppy hurt my puppy. And I was like, who did this to you? You give me his name. And Hank Win Snitch, which I. I guess I can respect.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Anyway, he's got some real, like, partnerships in there, though.

[Emma]

Yeah. Or someone's threatening him. I don't like that. So anyway, if your puppy came home and said that he scratched a puppy in Burbank, you give me his name and we're gonna talk about.

[Christine]

It was an accident.

[Emma]

I don't know and I don't care. Anyway, so. Yeah, there's a. I was just in Texas, which that's the reason I drank this week, is that I got to have. It was quite an honor there.

[Christine]

It's like a whirlwind romance you had for a day or two.

[Emma]

I did. It was. In total. I think it was like half a day of traveling and then I spent a day there, which was nice.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

But I was just there super quick. Two listeners named Trace and Cynthia, they are in the theater world and they're very, very big in Austin, Texas. They're very, very successful. Like, I just watched them on Instagram last night win like a bunch of awards for a different play that they put together. And I guess they're.

[Christine]

Do they have like a. I want.

[Emma]

To double check, but I think it's called Bottle Alley. Let me double check. I don't think. I think they work through this theater company. I don't know if it's their theater company, but they work with the Bottle Alley Theater Company in Austin.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Emma]

And their names were Trace and Cynthia. And they listened to forever ago. My. I think it was a three parter or a two parter for Harry Houdini.

[Christine]

That was like a classic episode. It was.

[Emma]

It's still to this day one of my favorite stories I've covered. And it's one of, like, my favorite fascinations to tell people about still. But I guess they listened to that and in it. I guess it was around when Hamilton came out and I was like, this needs to be a Hamilton kind of play. This needs to be a play. And they literally turned it into a play.

[Christine]

And so that's just amazing.

[Emma]

It's so cool. So they reached out and I was able to fly into Austin for their last showing of it, which was great.

[Christine]

And that's so fun.

[Emma]

I wanted to tell you it was so cool because my. All I knew is that there was a play about Houdini. I didn't Know anything else? I assumed it was when I heard inspired by my episode. I assumed it was the episode from beginning to end. For some reason, I just thought it was like they were gonna cover what I covered. But they actually. Theirs was about 10 years after Houdini died and everyone getting together to do the final seance of him.

[Christine]

My favorite part of the story and.

[Emma]

What was so interesting about it is I. I thought this was going to be. I'm going into a local theater and sitting in an audience and watching people on stage. But it was like one of those live interactive theaters. And so they rented out, like, this historic landmark in Austin. It was this old, spooky Victorian manor. In every room, there were different people playing different parts. And you got to see. You could walk through the house, but you could see all. Everything that was happening the night of. And so you could go into, like, this one room where they were doing a seance and one room where his. Harry, Houdini's protege was doing magic trick tricks. And you could go into this other area and at the. In some way, each of their storylines all end up kind of merging into you going to. Everyone walking into the carriage house and watching them do the full seance together. And it was very, very.

[Christine]

That is. That's way. That is not what I expected.

[Emma]

That sounds so much cooler than I thought.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

And so it was very nice. I met everybody. The. It was like an insanely talented cast. Everybody was so nice and weird. I think every single person in that theater company listens to us because they were.

[Christine]

Those photos you post were so sweet. And I was like, this is like, just such a charming group of people. I don't know them, but they seem lovely.

[Emma]

Every single person was so, like, like, obscenely kind. Like, it was like, just so. They were so wonderful.

[Christine]

Obscenely. Why don't you put that on your brochures for next time?

[Emma]

We are extremely kind. Please come to our.

[Christine]

No, not even. We are just like, quote, obscenely kind. Podcaster.

[Emma]

You know, they were just so wonderful. And then we all went out to a bar afterwards, and I ended up becoming, like, Instagra friends with all of them and all that. But they. And they. They put out, like, such great stuff. As soon as they wrapped this one, I was there for the closing night. They had awards for, like, the next two days to go to, and they won awards of both of them. And then now they're, I think, writing something else or all the cast that I now follow on Instagram, they're already rehearsing for other Shows. So.

[Christine]

So, yeah, let's fucking follow the train, man. How exciting.

[Emma]

Yeah. So if you see anything from Bottle Alley Theater Company, please go. If you live in Austin, go. Go see their shows. And especially if it's written by Tracer Cynthia. They.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Emma]

It was just a very great experience. I'm so glad I went because it was. It was very impulsive. It, like, we found out, like, I think a week or two before.

[Christine]

Yeah. They were like, this is a long shot. And Em was like, I'll be there.

[Emma]

They did tell me, because we all went out afterwards, and they're like, yeah, we were just, like, at a bar and I think. And I was just like, fuck it. Wouldn't it be crazy?

[Christine]

Honestly, this is your sign. If you're out there and you're like, I don't know. They would never just fucking try it. Who? People like us exist, and we're fucking nuts. Like, I. I was like, if I didn't have, like, a kid in the plan and travel, I probably would have showed up, too.

[Emma]

Free will is a crazy thing when you use. It is.

[Christine]

And then when you're a Gemini and you're like, what can I do today? And it's like, someone hands you on a silver platter.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Like, why don't you fly to Austin for a day? It's like, well, I can't not.

[Emma]

You know, it turned. Yeah, it turned into, like, a great day. It was like, honestly, one of the best days I've had in a really long time was like, I just. Everything planned out very well. Like, I did my classic waking up way too fucking early, which is so out of character. But I got a lot done in 24 hours, and it was. It was. It was very nice. And I was telling them.

[Christine]

Where did you stay? Haunted hotel?

[Emma]

No, I stayed at a hotel that was closest to the airport, so that way I could get the most done.

[Christine]

Makes sense. Makes sense. But what was the art like there? Was it warm and brown?

[Emma]

Honestly, the art was about this level.

[Christine]

Okay. Yeah. That feels airport hotel to me.

[Emma]

I didn't stick around to look at the art. You know what I'm saying? I left very quickly, and maybe the art was responsible for that.

[Christine]

I guess you had other things to do in the city of Austin, Texas, than sit in the hotel at the airport.

[Emma]

Yeah, well, so I did. I don't know if they will do this, but I was very demanding by the end of the night that they make this. They try to shoot for this, being a regular. You know how every Halloween, it's Like, best things to do for the Halloween season in this city.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Emma]

I was like, you have to bring this back next hearing. You have to keep doing it. So if for some reason next year as we're speaking, it's 2025, if you see this during a Halloween season in the future and you see the last seance of Harry Houdini as an event, you have to go. It was very cool. They had. There was a whole bar area where they, like, were making little, like, themed drinks. It was very wonderful. It was as fun as that. And everyone was so nice. So everyone. Everyone wanted me to. To tell you hello, so.

[Christine]

Hello. Oh, hello. Oh, I'm so honored. I just loved, like. Like, living vicarious was so nice to not go somewhere and be social, but to, like, feel like on behalf, like, I was like, there in spirit. It felt like. Oh, Em's just. Emma will handle the, you know, socially socializing on my behalf, which means a lot.

[Emma]

I love to hold court. Oh. And also, there's lots and I'll say about it, but some people who have been, like, listeners forever, Forever, ever. I. I don't know how they knew people through this theater company, but they also bought tickets to this somehow knowing I was going to be there. And so I got to meet, like, like, people who, like, I recognized their. Their usernames because. Because they've been around that long. And that's.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's a. That's a commitment.

[Emma]

Like, people who used to send us, like, some of, like, the OG like, like, fan mail and like.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

Follow our, like, early Patreon live streams and stuff. I think so.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

Anyway, thank you to everybody. I'm. It was a wonderful ego boost, and it was a great, great show. I'm like, it's.

[Christine]

It was super cool to see, so I'm so happy.

[Emma]

Other than that, the reason I drink is I found a new empanada lady, and she goes. She goes to my dog park. Oh. And then the not so good reason why I drink is because of my hip hurts, which I. We've discussed already, so.

[Christine]

Well, I've. I've handled that for you, so thank you. What do you go stretch your hip flexor. So I'm actually being boring today. I'm just drinking a sparkling water. This looks like the most generic, like, Aldi brand something ever.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, it's German. That makes sense.

[Emma]

Like, we're not here for the flair. You're gonna like what it's going on.

[Christine]

Yeah. Sit down and drink. And so I'm drinking that. But the reason I drink, which is kind of similar to yours in a way, but not. I was at the bookstore in my neighborhood, where I feel like I've made so many cool connections with people who are familiar with the podcast or who have seen the book. And then, like, our book. And then the guy who is the manager there, I chatted with him the other day, and he's like, oh, we always make sure to keep, like, a copy of your book up. And I know. It was really, really sweet. And so Leona and I went a few days ago, and we're sitting in the back, and she's eating her chocolate babka. And. Or as he always says, it's pronounced babka. And I'm like, okay, chocolate babka. And we're in the back eating it. And Leona looks. Goes, look, Mommy. And they have both of our books on the local author's wall. And I was like, oh, my God, my dream come true. Local authors. So I'm in, like, the Kentucky section. I was like, so geeking out. We're sitting there. I swear to God. A few months later, these two women come in. They're like, kind of like classic, like, yoga pants, young moms, like, clearly just, like, out doing stuff and getting shit done. And they're sitting there and they're talking about plans and stuff, and then all of a sudden, one of them stands up and goes, oh, this will help. And they pull down our book. And I'm like, I've never seen this happen in my life. Like, somebody in the wild.

[Emma]

I've never seen that.

[Christine]

It was. I was so. I was like, I have to leave. I have to leave. But I sat down and I was like, just see what happens. And she starts flipping through the books, and she goes, or through our book. And she goes, okay, okay, here, write this one down. And she starts. They literally, em. Started planning a road trip.

[Emma]

Shut up.

[Christine]

And I'm sitting there going, this can't be happening. And she says, did you say something? I was so, like, no. I just was sat there, like, stunned.

[Emma]

I don't think I would have said anything either. I would have just been like, like, locked the in.

[Christine]

Like, I was locked in. And I said, leona, look, look, she.

[Emma]

Doesn'T give a shit, does she?

[Christine]

No. She was like, that's your book. And I was like, I know. And I was like, I don't think they know.

[Emma]

Say it louder. Say it louder.

[Christine]

I know, right? I was like, I don't think they know I wrote it. And she's like, oh, that's too bad. And I was like, okay, if maybe it wasn't meant to be, but humbled so fast. I know. I was like, but it was just crazy. And I, I. And then, oh, then they go to the back flap and start reading.

[Emma]

Oh, and they see your face.

[Christine]

So fortunately for me, my presentation in the local coffee shop at 8:30 in the morning is a little bit different than the photo we took six years ago in which I. My pre child spray tanned, short, short romper and heels like, like, definitely a different vibe. And so I was like, there's no way in hell they're gonna recognize me. They did not. But they start reading, they go. And that's why. Oh, this is a podcast. The other one goes, it's a podcast. And they're like, okay, write that down. We can listen to it on the way. And I was like, this is a crazy. And I was gonna say something then, but then they, and also they were a little intimidating because like I said, they were those kind of like yoga mom types where I was like, oh, I feel like already kind of on the outs. So then I was like, oh, God, what if I walk up and I'm like, that's my book. And they were like, okay, I don't know, I just felt really weird about it. But I was like, know what? I'm just gonna enjoy this moment and the fact that they. Oh, and then they went to one of your sections or one of your stories and they said something like, oh, my God, did you know he was a doctor before he killed those people or before the hospital? And. And she goes. He was like, I thought I knew. I thought I knew everything about the story. And I was like, this is crazy.

[Emma]

Wow. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

I also, part of me was worried they were gonna be like, oh, this is terrible and it sucks and these people are idiots. So I was like, I'm just gonna let them have their opinion and leave it alone.

[Emma]

That's. And you know what I mean? That's so stinking cool. That's so sick.

[Christine]

It was like I, like, literally took a picture. I was taking a picture of Leona, but I just zoomed in to like, Right, right, right. I was like, I need to prove to myself later that they were actually holding our book and, like, reading the about us section. And I was like, this is mortifying.

[Emma]

I've never even. I. It's wild to me that people read the about section because I, I don't do that. So it's weird that someone was curious about, like, who we Actually are. If. If only it said local authority.

[Christine]

I know. I mean, well, I guess it was.

[Emma]

In the local author section, right?

[Christine]

Oh, it was in the local section. And at one point, Leona, like, ran to the other room, and I went, leona. And then it occurred to me, like, oh, in that, like, in the acknowledgments, I write, like, to Leona, whatever. So I'm like, if they really were.

[Emma]

If they were listening, if they were.

[Christine]

Listening to me, then maybe they would have figured it out anyway. So I thought you'd appreciate that, too, because it was just like one of those wild, like. Like, I can't believe this is actually happening. And I'm witnessing it because I only go to that coffee shop, like, every other week, one time. So I'm like, it's not like I'm always there. It was just a very bizarre.

[Emma]

So cool. Well, I, I.

[Christine]

And then she didn't buy the book, by the way. Oh, she put it back. And I went, well, I. I've clocked you ladies.

[Emma]

If they took a picture of anything as inspiration, I'll take that.

[Christine]

They were taking notes. The one woman was writing everything down. They're like, we could stop here. I mean, it was so cool.

[Emma]

I mean, in this economy, just screen. Just take pictures of the book.

[Christine]

Seriously, I don't expect you to literally buy the book. I'm totally kidding.

[Emma]

But piggybacking. When I was in Austin, I was hanging out with one of my friends, Selena, and she. She was like, oh, let's go to this bookstore. I think I'll really like it. And it was a bookstore we had a book signing at. And I was like. And it was. It was the one. You'll remember this one. It was the one that was like, three floors.

[Christine]

Oh, Oh, I still have a ton of shit. Didn't we buy those tiara, Those inflatable tiara? Literally.

[Emma]

We stopped at the tiara section that.

[Christine]

We each bought them one. I bought one for my stepmom. You bought one for your mom? I think if I. If I'm guessing it was a hit with your mom because my stepmother was. Lost her damn mind. Wore it the entire night, wore it to her next Christmas event, and told everyone, like, this is my tiara.

[Emma]

The only reason my mom doesn't wear the inflatable tiara is because she has two actual.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah.

[Emma]

Old tiara.

[Christine]

Oh, so does Ellen. So does Ellen. And the reason it was her travel one.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And this was why it was a fun joke, is because she gave me one of her tiaras. Before my wedding. And then I was like, I'm not wearing this at my wedding. It was the day before my wedding. And I'm like, I already have my hair. I'm not wearing a tiara. And so she's like, just take it in case you change your mind. Then, like, two weeks later, she was like, why have you not given me my tr. And I was like, I thought you gave that to me. And she's like, no, it's mine. And so something borrowed? I guess so. And I was like, well, I guess if I didn't wear it, I don't get to own it anymore. So I gave it back to her. And so then when I gave her the inflatable one, it was kind of like a ha ha. Here's another tiara. Who the has. The fact that your mother and my stepmother both have real jeweled tiaras is crazy.

[Emma]

And then we gifted one to my Grandma for her 90th. I don't know why everyone. This family, everyone bought me a tiara. A real one, I think.

[Christine]

Oh, I thought you meant, like, you gifted her inflatable one. I was like, that's fun. No, she. A 90th birthday. She deserves a real tiara.

[Emma]

She does. She deserves whatever she wants at 90.

[Christine]

That's right.

[Emma]

Anyway, sorry for the glare on my glasses. They're kind of. It's kind of stressing me out.

[Christine]

But no, it actually kind of matches the painting behind you. Like, bars of light. It just kind of looks like.

[Emma]

I know. It's like a. Anyway, no, I don't have a tiara. I don't want one, Mom. I feel like she's gonna hear this episode. She's like, oh, now.

[Christine]

Actually, I was gonna say Em doesn't want one, listeners, because now I feel like we're gonna get all sorts of weird.

[Emma]

Yeah, I'm good. I like my baseball hats. I got one right here. It's my. I don't. I. I'm good. I got things for my head. Now, a DeLorean, if you would like.

[Christine]

That is where we can begin the conversation.

[Emma]

Well, I only say that because it is November 5, which is the anniversary of Windock Brown. Discover time travel. And by the way, it's the 40th anniversary. And tonight. The other reason I drink is because I'm. They're playing it for one night only in the theaters again tonight, so be excited.

[Christine]

Well, I have something to say, which I forgot until you mentioned the date. Today is Gio's 10th birthday.

[Emma]

Shut the fuck up.

[Christine]

And no, it's not Really? I really cannot believe that I keep sleeping my mind because my brain can't.

[Emma]

That can't be true. No, no, no, no, no. Because that's not true.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. Is it his ninth?

[Emma]

Well, I went to his first birthday on in 2018.

[Christine]

No, that was 2017. 17.

[Emma]

So he's 8. What? He's not 10. I certainly will fight to the death that he's not 10.

[Christine]

Okay, all right, all right. Maybe you're right. Maybe you're right, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Emma]

I'm just in denial.

[Christine]

I think I just am a bad pet parent. And I forget the year that he was born because it feels like so long ago.

[Emma]

We. We only started being friends. Yeah, 2017, right? Yeah, the podcast started. We started the podcast, so we started 2016.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

We became friends October 30, 2016.

[Christine]

His. His birthday is November, so you probably went to his.

[Emma]

So it was a month into our friendship.

[Christine]

First birthday. So that means that this is his 10th birthday.

[Emma]

Wow. Oh, my God. So what do you. So he deserves a tr. He's 70, and he has.

[Christine]

He has, like, four tiaras.

[Emma]

What are you gonna do for a.

[Christine]

Little Gigi for his beat boy? Oh, my God. Well, it's a beautiful day. It's like, 65 degrees out. Gorgeous. We're probably gonna take him out on the town.

[Emma]

What are his. Give everyone an update on Gigi. What are his favorite things to do these days?

[Christine]

Oh, my gosh. He loves to eat cat. And he loves to steal Leona's socks and place them in really inconvenient places throughout the house. He loves socks, like, still. And it's mostly Leona's socks because they're everywhere, and he will, like, hide them in our bed. And he's just a very good boy, and I love him. And he and Leona are always, like. She's always like Giovanni, because he'll, like, try to eat a French fry out of her hand and like, mom, just want to eat my French fries. And I'm like, kids, get along, please.

[Emma]

I love that they love each other. They're so sweet. They do.

[Christine]

And they annoy the hell out of each other. So they are kind of like siblings, but it's really sweet. And he loves all his little brothers and his little, little baby, and he's just a. A very good, happy, healthy boy.

[Emma]

So. Yeah. Does he have any doctor's appointments coming up to guarantee he is perfectly a wonderful, healthy, happy boy?

[Christine]

Yeah. You know, he got his allergy shot, so he should be set on that front. He got all his vaccines, and he's getting a lot of exercise and he's eating that good, healthy food that I. We didn't add for. And then I convinced myself into buying it, and I love it. And he's happy. Yeah, he's a good boy.

[Emma]

He's a good man. And he sold naps, right? He still naps.

[Christine]

He's right here. Nap something.

[Emma]

Oh. Happy birthday to you.

[Christine]

How do I even turn this thing?

[Emma]

Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, little Gigi. Handsome baby boy.

[Christine]

Hello. Clearly, I don't know how to use my camera.

[Emma]

Happy B day to you. Oh, man. G.G.

[Christine]

Hi.

[Emma]

Happy birthday. He doesn't look a day over five.

[Christine]

He's my puppy dog.

[Emma]

He doesn't even look 10.

[Christine]

I'm sorry. That was not my reason. I drink. I just like, what the hell's good?

[Emma]

We got a real great tour of your laptop, though.

[Christine]

Yeah, my bad. My bad wasn't the plan, I swear. Okay, yeah, he just needed a little shout out. But, yeah, he's. He's a good boy.

[Emma]

10.

[Christine]

You really got my hopes up for a minute. I went, phew.

[Emma]

I was convinced.

[Christine]

Chewy sent a card saying, it's your 10th birthday. And I went, how dare you? And then I was like, oh, my God, they would know. I guess because I must have signed him up years ago.

[Emma]

Well, no, I for some reason thought that the podcast was 2018, which make us 2017. So he would be two years younger.

[Christine]

Yeah, unfortunately, I've been trying to find a way. A way to. To say anything but 10. But, yeah, that's it. But I can't believe he's 10. That means in February, it'll be his gotcha day, and I'll have had him 10 years.

[Emma]

You gotta have a big day with him. You gotta let him have some PB and.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. And it's like, right around Valentine's Day, so it'll be very romantic.

[Emma]

Oh, I'm so excited to hear.

[Christine]

You and Hank probably have very similar activities when it comes to snuggling and sharing snacks.

[Emma]

I did teach him the word snuggle. That's very nice. And he recently got all of his shots, but he got them all at once. And I guess he has the same thing that I have, so it's genetic, which is that after too many vaccines, you get, like, swollen lymph nodes.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah.

[Emma]

And it freaked me out because I gave him a little touchy scratch, and all of a sudden he had a big ass cyst on his leg. And I was like. I was like, how does it start this early? Oh, my God.

[Christine]

He's one.

[Emma]

I was like, how is there? So I had a full crash out thinking it was, like, something worse. And then I had to call the vet, and they were like, he just had vaccines. He's fine.

[Christine]

He's just feeling a little owie after his shots. Yeah.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Anyway, this dog is now like, what the hell do you want, lady? He like. He's like, why did you wake me up? Now he feels like there's something.

[Emma]

Oh, let me see the sweetie man. Oh, my goodness. A nice chest shot of his furries. Hi, handsome man. Oh, hi, Mimi's. Oh, that's the happy boy. That's my first love right there. This my sweetie boy. I loved him before I loved Allison. That right. Oh, look at his little tushy. You really did zoom in. Just kind of to brag about how great his hair is. Oh, my God. And now the monster herself.

[Christine]

How do I get out of here?

[Emma]

We get it. You have a. You have a tight jawline. We get it. Christine pores. No, you don't.

[Christine]

Bad makeup abilities.

[Emma]

No, you look great.

[Christine]

Anyway. Okay, so that's that.

[Emma]

Wow.

[Christine]

What an intro. But we had a lot to catch up on.

[Emma]

I know. Well, I haven't talked to you in a long time. People think that we see each other every week, but sometimes it's always in, like, Texas. Well, I do Florida. And I. I will say it again publicly, just because I think. I think. I think I. I think in my head, I say it out loud, but then I don't. But I can bring a microphone anywhere, so anytime. Right.

[Christine]

Right.

[Emma]

But I. Because I did think about it, I was like, maybe I just stay longer. But honestly, the only reason I came back is because this dog. And it's expensive to put them somewhere else. So if only him. That, too. And if only I had a partner who could be home and take care of him while I'm gone.

[Christine]

Yeah. Is Allison still on the run?

[Emma]

Ask a question that you want an answer to that is not gonna sound super depressing.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Emma]

She is still not home, but that is okay. We. How much do I want to say? I. I'm. I not. I'm making it sound a lot worse than I am. I'm trying to think of behind the scenes stuff that's going on. We are totally fine, but given the state of the world, we are, you know, a little scared about how, you know, how everything's playing out. And so we have looked at contingency plans to maybe live elsewhere. And that's not super Duper on the radar or anything, but we have thought of it as a potentially serious hypothetical. And so. So the way that we have framed her being gone this whole time is like, let's just take advantage of getting to you, seeing your family a lot, and just. Just in the event that we decide we gotta pull a plug and get out of here.

[Christine]

Like, get out of la?

[Emma]

No, like, oh, get out like Earth.

[Christine]

Or just the country. I'm like, how far are we talking, baby?

[Emma]

I don't.

[Christine]

I don't know how much to intervene here or whether.

[Emma]

No, honestly, we haven't. We haven't figured out a super duper plan yet. Not that there's even actually a plan that's in effect at all, but we are just trying to come up with plan B's and C's and D's if things are getting worse and worse for marginalized people. And I know queer people are on that list. And so we've just been having talks about what ifs. And in the event that one of those what ifs becomes an actual reality, I think Allison's gonna be really grateful that she spent so much time with her family.

[Christine]

Just.

[Emma]

So the. The goal, obviously, would be my. My true homeland, Canada.

[Christine]

That's obviously the goal, which would actually.

[Emma]

Work out a lot better, because if we went to Canada, I would like to think we would just move to, like, essentially the east coast, you know, and then we would be back on the same coast together.

[Christine]

But anyway, Halifax is cool.

[Emma]

Anyway, that's another secret, not so secret update is that, you know, we're just planning to have to plan in case there's something we have to plan for. So. And so, as much as I have not liked Allison being away, I have really fucking loved this, like, moment of being independent and, like, getting to do whatever I want at whatever time I want. Not that Allison's super controlling, but we live in a small space, and we live. We have completely different sleep cycles, so there are times where I have to be quieter or, you know, she likes things cleaner. And so I've really loved this, like, kind of like, almost bachelor year, which is great. And she's enjoyed a lot of time with her family, and I have learned a lot about living by myself and taking care of another living creature. So anyway, I'm not trying to, like, throw this, like, you know, big bomb on anyone, but, you know, there's just stuff behind the scenes.

[Christine]

And so it's like things are happening rapidly in the world, in our lives. Like, things move. I feel like things are starting to move at such a rapid pace in everyone's orbit right now. Like, yeah, I don't even know in a month where everybody will be standing, what we'll be planning or doing. Like, it just feels like things are so up in the air.

[Emma]

Well, Alison and I, the day that that guy became president again, we came up with a list of non negotiables. And if any of those things happened, then we would leave. And it just. Every day feels like we get closer and closer to the house.

[Christine]

Have you looked? Cause I've, like, looked into it and it's, like, very, very difficult to get.

[Emma]

Yes, we actually have very low qualifications to get in. And we have. We. Allison has done, obviously, a lot of the type A research on all this, and I'm very grateful for her on that. But we have. We have a list of places we're looking at, but Canada's the dream place because it. It doesn't feel like we're moving too far, that too much would change. But Canada doesn't want us, it seems like, so.

[Christine]

Right, right, right. Well, they've. They've definitely had to put up some big, like, signs like, hey, slow your roll. We get it, we get it.

[Emma]

But so anyway, it's a. It's. It's not. Nothing's set in stone or set in anything. It's just, like, amongst the talks. We're just like, well, let's think of you being gone this whole time as, like, a potential event that something happened. So anyway, didn't mean to, like, throw that on everyone, too, but.

[Christine]

No, listen, I was curious.

[Emma]

The world is scary. It is.

[Christine]

That's why we drink.

[Emma]

And that's why we drink. And of course, if something were to happen, there will be updates along the way, but because it's so not a reality yet. It hasn't even been, you know, Everyone will know because I. Obviously, I won't be able to shut up about it if something actually happens. Right, right, right, right. Anyway, story time. I think you're really gonna like this one, Cristine.

[Christine]

Ah, okay. So I was in a little bit of a pickle where I bought this really pretty dress for my friend's wedding next week. And then I was like, oh, my gosh, I need some sort of, like, shapewear to, like, make it sit right on my body. And then I had this epiphany. Oh, my gosh, I forgot, Honey, Love is a sponsor. And when I ordered from them, they sent me, like, this awesome shapewear. And I was like, wait a minute. So I tried it on with the dress. And I was like, hell, hell, yeah, brother. As evidence. Hell, yeah, brother. And that's important. If, like an outfit, you got to start with the right foundation. Okay. So Honey Love bras and shapewear give you comfort and confidence, whether you're sparkling at a holiday party, you're at a wedding in Hawaii like I am, or just in cozy sweaters. It's. It's comfy, and it does the trick.

[Emma]

Yeah. Give honey love to yourself or to someone you love. Because nothing says holiday spirit like support, comfort, and confidence. And undie bundles, too. Make the perfect stocking stuffer. Love an undie bundle. Can't wait to give them to everyone. Everyone I know. And everyone can go, what? And I'm gonna go, trust the process.

[Christine]

Trust it. Trust the process. Treat yourself or someone you love to honey love this holiday season. And right now, you can save [e-mail] drink, just use our exclusive link honeylove.com drink to grab your discount.

[Emma]

After you order, they'll ask where you heard about honey love. So please support our show and let them know we sent you. Celebrate the season feeling confident and comfortable with Honey Love.

[Christine]

I'm just in bed all day the time. All the time. I work there, I write there, I sleep there, I eat there. It's pretty bad. But I have a Helix mattress, and so it's extremely comfortable, and I am trying to spread out where I do my activities. But I will say that Helix mattress always calls me home, you know?

[Emma]

Well, you have. You just do like, one at, like, the bottom left corner, one at the top right corner, one right in the center, and then I think you sleep at the top. I don't know, actually, but, you know.

[Christine]

Yeah, I can make use of it. It's fine.

[Emma]

It's a. But the point is that with Helix Mattress, you never want to leave your bed. I am currently in a hotel. I have been traveling around doing this and that, and I have been away from a Helix mattress, and my back can tell.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Emma]

I'm not loving it. I really want to get back to Helix Mattress, my dog. Helix Mattress, my dog. I'll never know. I don't know. They're both important to me in the same way. I want to snuggle both of them.

[Christine]

Free shipping and seamless delivery offered by Helix. They deliver your mattress right to your door with free shipping in the US and they have a happy with Helix guarantee with SE exchanges so you can rest easy. Go to helix sleep.com drink for 27% off sitewide exclusive for listeners of and that's why we drink.

[Emma]

That's helix sleep.com drink for 27% off sitewide exclusive for listeners of and that's why we drink helix sleep.com drink. Okay, this is. Remind me of the place you got married in Cincinnati.

[Christine]

Yeah, the Transept.

[Emma]

Fuck, I thought. I thought this was. Never mind. Wrong building.

[Christine]

Monastery Event Center. Which one is it?

[Emma]

Is the Cincinnati Hall Music hall.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's next door. And no, it is basically the same because it's next door and it's. We took pictures in front of it and it's like a huge deal in this. In Cincinnati. So I. I am. I am fucking amped.

[Emma]

I'm glad. But I was real. I really thought this was the place you got married because I remember you.

[Christine]

Saying that place is more of an event. Event hall. Like sort of next to the music hall.

[Emma]

Well, anyway, I thought you were super duper gonna like this one, but you'll just super like it.

[Christine]

I do super duper like it because I have seen things that I saw. I saw Lore. I saw Lore, the podcast. Oh, I mean, like I've seen shows there.

[Emma]

And then you said, I thought, you bet you'd seen something paranormal.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Emma]

And you went away.

[Christine]

Sorry, I thought.

[Emma]

I thought you said you'd seen something and I thought you meant spooky. And then you said, I saw Lore. And I went, what kind of lore?

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Emma]

Okay, well, understand the suspense.

[Christine]

No, I saw Aaron Manke perform there on Halloween a couple years ago. Yeah, it's a really cool spot.

[Emma]

Well, it is incredibly super haunted, which I don't think I need to tell you.

[Christine]

Yeah, I only know a couple stories and they're kind of passed down, so I don't really know what's true and what's not.

[Emma]

Well, let's see together. Because again, these were notes I did a few days ago. It was when we were supposed to record originally, so.

[Christine]

So. Right, right, right.

[Emma]

It's gonna be one of those moments where we learn along the way together. So this is in Cincinnati, if you can believe it, the Cincinnati Music Hall. And it is a music hall. Those are the two first notes I had.

[Christine]

The episode we went to. We did a ghost hunting tour when I was pregnant. And when we were at that Potter's field and we were like walking around with those. That was like on. In the park in front of Wash. Or in front of music hall. Said that? Yeah. So you've been in front of it.

[Emma]

Funny you say that.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Emma]

Well, because I was gonna say that they Host a lot of ghost tours there. Or they're. It's a part of a lot of ghost tours in the area. And. Oh, yeah. So. Okay, so here we go. The Cincinnati Music Hall. It is a music hall event space. Does both performances and exhibitions. It is a national landmark since 1975. It hosts the Cincinnati. Cincinnati Ballet, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, the Cincinnati Opera, the May Festival Chorus, and the Cincinnati Pops Orchestra. But before all that, it was a potter's field, as you just mentioned, or a mass set of graves for unclaimed bodies. I'd love that. You brought that up.

[Christine]

I did. I am, too. It just. I was like. It just popped my head.

[Emma]

I was like. Well, okay. Can confirm that that research was true. Sick. And here we go in 1818. Those are the earliest. That's the earliest year we can find that makes mention of these potter's fields, although it could be older, but we know at least since 1818, there's been a potter's field there. Fun fact, Cincinnati. Do you know when it was established? Christine? You don't have to know. Let's look. I don't know when Fredericksburg was established.

[Christine]

1810.

[Emma]

1788.

[Christine]

I was gonna say 1788. Then I was like, maybe that's Ohio.

[Emma]

Well, anyway, established in 1788. And this Potter's Field is from 1818. So only like 30 years into Cincinnati existence.

[Christine]

And they're like, oops, everyone's dead. What do we do? I guess is what I mean. Right here. I mean. Oi.

[Emma]

Well, just think of, like. I mean, imagine 30 years. That's how long we've. So if our birth was Cincinnati being established and today is when this potter's field was created. That's not a long time. It's like some of the earliest people who died in this town are like the first residents.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

So some of the earliest bodies are buried in this potter's fields. And some of these earliest bodies would have been victims of which. I don't. I don't mean to be, like, quizzing you here, but do you know some of the earliest. Oh, disasters of your town?

[Christine]

I'm guessing yellow fever.

[Emma]

Close.

[Christine]

Or.

[Emma]

I don't know, maybe they're the same one. Cholera.

[Christine]

Cholera, that. Yeah, I was thinking cholera. Yeah.

[Emma]

So of all these bodies in the potter's field, a lot of them are victims of these cholera outbreaks. There was two of them. And then the Cincinnati floods. I guess there were some really gnarly floods over there. And the Moselle explosion. Do you know about this?

[Christine]

I have no idea what that Is cool.

[Emma]

So cholera alone. Let's talk about that for a second. In the first round of cholera, which was early on In Cincinnati's history, 2% of the population died. Died in the first outbreak, which doesn't sound like, I guess, a lot to some, but it is a lot.

[Christine]

It's like a small percentage. But then if you think, like, oh, it's a percentage of town. Yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

But still, if, you know, 100 people. Two are dead now from cholera. In the second outbreak, 5,000 people died, so it more than doubled. And poor people were the most affected, I guess, because they lived by the water and water was.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

Spread.

[Christine]

The cholera water was not clean. Dirty drinking water caused a cholera. We also had a lot of pork production, and it wasn't sanit. Sanitary the way it was handled. And things were just kind of dumped into the water. Remember that. That the Bobby Mackeys, where the wealth went into the. It was a slaughterhouse and went to the Licking river, and they would just dump it in the Licking River. And so, yeah, it was like, not clean. And. Which is funny because now, of course, you think like, oh, waterfront property is, like, the most expensive. But back then, it was like, like, the poorest people lived up by the water.

[Emma]

It's funny you mentioned that, too, because when I. It was my favorite fun fact when I was a Segway tour guide, because it was in a. In a area that now it's in Yorktown, Virginia, which, if you have a waterfront view, it's like a very she situation.

[Christine]

Right, Right.

[Emma]

But lobster used to be, like, a disgusting food, and it was like, for only poor people would eat lobster because they live by the water and it's.

[Christine]

All they could find.

[Emma]

But now it's like, oh, I have lobster. Like, it's like. It's funny how it switched where if you live by the water.

[Christine]

So nutty. Yeah.

[Emma]

Like, yeah, you were poor, and now it means you're super rich. And if you relate the city, you're poor. But back then, it meant you were rich.

[Christine]

They would call lobsters like cockroaches of the sea because they had all these, like, little things, and they'd be like, yeah, these are only for, like, prisoners to eat.

[Emma]

And as a lobster hater, they should have never changed their stance. It's.

[Christine]

Yeah, you're like. They were right the first time.

[Emma]

Same with shrimp. Everything. They all got those creepy little big mustache feelers. Yeah.

[Christine]

I stopped. I've stopped liking it as much. I used to really love seafood, and I think, like, as I get older, I Just have. Ever since I got pregnant with Leona, I'm kind of, like, turned off of it, and I'm like, why don't I just trust my body on that one? I don't.

[Emma]

It's a good reason.

[Christine]

I still like it, but I'm like. I try to. I don't know. Makes me kind of feel weird.

[Emma]

Of all the things I could judge you on, that one's not going to be one of them.

[Christine]

Thank you. I figured you'd might. You'd finally support one of my food aversions.

[Emma]

You know, if it's ain't tuna fish, I really don't want it.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm kind of getting there, too, honestly, so.

[Emma]

Well, the day you stop liking canned sardines is the day I'll respect you. Okay?

[Christine]

That's never gonna happen. Anchovies? Are you kidding? So anchovies are different. Okay. They're beautiful creations.

[Emma]

Yeah. Well, I hope you enjoy them. I know I stand alone. A lot of people like canned fish, but. Or. And I. I can't speak because I do like canned tuna fish, but canned sardines really is, for some reason. And I think you could see this.

[Christine]

You could see the color. I don't eat sardines. I just eat anchovies because they're. And I only eat them if they're, like, smaller and not like the fish. I don't want to eat a fish like that.

[Emma]

I can't look at his face. I. That's so. Fucking eyeballs. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Seriously.

[Emma]

Okay, we're done. I can't even.

[Christine]

Okay, we're done.

[Emma]

Like, camera falls and we're done.

[Christine]

And the microphone's off.

[Emma]

So. Okay, the first round of cholera, plus the second round of cholera. 7% of the population is dead.

[Christine]

Jeez.

[Emma]

And poor people were most affected because they lived by the water. So with so many people dying so quickly, I mean, imagine all of a sudden, 7% of the population in your area just dies. It leads to mass graves because you just need to bury people fast enough.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

Before they start, like, stinking up the place, like.

[Christine]

Yeah. And then it's like people were un. I mean, never mind. I was going to say, like, it's also, like, not hygienic, obviously, to have bodies around. So, like, you want to put them. Give. Lay them down to rest.

[Emma]

Also, like, the 18 whatevers, like, I don't think they were thinking about the biological hazards the way we do, like, think they're just like, get rid of it, you know?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

So this led to this Potter's Field. Overcrowding. It was already kind of overcrowded. Now 7% of the population is there and on top of the field having too many bodies already. Then a nearby steamboat called the Moselle exploded, killing half the people on board, which was about 150 people.

[Christine]

What Moselle? I don't even know this story.

[Emma]

Oh, you should. M O S E L L E.

[Christine]

I have to ask my brother if he ever learned about this, because I feel like that's something he would know, right? He's gonna be like, duh.

[Emma]

He's gonna be. What do you mean? That's actually my favorite boat or some like that.

[Christine]

He's gonna be like, I know that. Wow. Okay. No, I had no idea. The other thing I was gonna say is I feel like, though, when you're raised, like, I feel like Cincinnati is one of those weird places, though, where, like, we have our things that we're really proud of and that we're like, these are our Cincinnati things. But then there are things that you grow up and you're like, I didn't know that. Like this. And then the other. Because I think it's a little bigger than, like, some, you know, like, smaller towns where you have, like, your things and everyone knows it. I feel like, since how you get, like, bits and pieces. Because I recently found out a few years ago that Play DOH was founded in Cincinnati. And I'm like. Like, my brother and I didn't know that. And we're like, why don't they have, like, a Play DOH thing at the museum?

[Emma]

Or, like, can you imagine a Play DOH factory or something, right?

[Christine]

I'm like, they could. They could at least, like, sponsor, like, a room at the kids museum or something. But I'm like, it's so weird that we've never known that. It's just, like, why?

[Emma]

So it feels very German, though. Like, why would we talk about the fun?

[Christine]

Very good point. So.

[Emma]

And it's in Cincinnati full of German people.

[Christine]

It sure is. And apparently they didn't want to talk about this boat explosion either. Either.

[Emma]

Yeah. They're like, why talk about bad parts of our history? That's.

[Christine]

I can't believe it. Yeah, we were. We were. We're a big river and a big steamboat town, so I can't believe I don't know about this. I'm gonna look it up later.

[Emma]

Well, let me tell you about it, so.

[Christine]

Even better.

[Emma]

Well, I'm not gonna tell you. You will have to look it up later if you're interested. But I will Give you a quote that I think will send you until a full blown tizzy until you research it more.

[Christine]

My brother, do you know about the Moselle steam boat? So I'll see what he says.

[Emma]

So it was a. The steamboat in town. There were 300 people on board it all. Apparently all four boilers at once exploded or something. Something insane. And half the people died instantly. And here is the quote for you that will absolutely make you want to learn everything about it. About a hundred skeletons had been had to be buried here at the Pottersfield when the steamer Moselle exploded and blew the skulls and limbs and blackened trunks of their passengers all over the. So that falling bodies fell through the roofs of houses and the remains of the victims were gathered together and buried in the potter's field.

[Christine]

What?

[Emma]

Literally. Okay. Three different sources I found.

[Christine]

Is this a Mandela effect? I feel crazy right now that I don't know about this.

[Emma]

Three different sources I looked up on this. Start their article with the fact that during this explosion the city rained bodies onto people's houses. Like. Like bodies were just fallen from the sky. Like because they got you explode out of a fucking boat into the city and people. It was going to imagine a body just falls through your goddamn roof.

[Christine]

What the.

[Emma]

Yep.

[Christine]

I cannot believe I've never heard about this. I mean maybe I missed something because I'm like, it feels important.

[Emma]

It certainly I. Yeah. Feels like your town's Titanic or something.

[Christine]

Yes. Well, I mean in Halifax they had that big boat explosion and it like half the population like had hearing loss and just crazy because of the. The impact of that. Anyway. Wild. I had no idea. Idea.

[Emma]

Yeah. So on top of the cholera, both outbreaks and this explosion and what was the other thing that people died from? Something else happened. Anyway, in total, the estimated bodies buried in this field today are like up to 10,000 people. Like it was. And you can imagine with all that land, I don't even think I could conceptualize what it would look like for that land to fit 10,000 bodies underneath it. Yeah, it's got to just be like stacks and stacks and stacks of people. People.

[Christine]

And that's downtown now. It's like the most downtown part of the city. So it's just wild to think like they were like how about here?

[Emma]

Yeah. Like what it's gotta like. I mean you're probably just walking on top of people all the time.

[Christine]

Oh yeah. Apparently you are just like bodies. That's why they have. You give. Have an EMF and just wander around.

[Emma]

Yeah. And not only that, but in the 1840s, part of the land that was the potter's field, so already has all of these bodies, and thus maybe all of this energy or all these spirits and all this activity. Part of that land then built on top of it, the Cincinnati Orphan Asylum. Many of those orphans were either they ended. They either had became orphans because their parents died from these floods and cholera outbreaks, or they eventually, in the asylum, also died from the cholera outbreak. So the kids were also all dying. Of course, one source said that there was also a hospital here during this time, but other sources say the hospital was after the fact, so I don't know which one is true. But either way, many of these kids were also buried in the field, and it was very convenient. They were just. It was. Their backyard was a potter's field, so they just kind of dumped the kids.

[Christine]

It's crazy, because that orphan or that asylum was this, like, huge Gothic structure. And it was, like, so creepy, but, like, really beautiful. And then they just fucking demolished the whole thing and put up the. This in, like, I think, the 70s or something. Put up this, like, ugly, like, broadcasting radio, local radio station. And it's just a real bummer because they, like, point to where the asylum was, like, right there behind city hall. And now there's just this junky old little building. But there used to be this, like, huge Gothic, like, you know, asylum structure thing. And I'm like, imagine how haunted that thing is. Or that broadcast studio sitting right there where that asylum was.

[Emma]

That's the better question. They should have had a whole Halloween segment on themselves.

[Christine]

Yeah, I agree.

[Emma]

Well, so the asylum later sold and then became a temporary version. I think this is what they mean by, like, maybe it was the same at the same time, or maybe they were separate entities. But most sources said the asylum sold and then became a temporary placeholder for the commercial hospital and lunatic asylum. Yikes.

[Christine]

Ah, yes. Yeah.

[Emma]

Which they just called the Pest house, which I love that. Like, if anyone was, like, mentally ill, they were just a pest.

[Christine]

You just get to the pest. Get. Get out of here, you pest this.

[Emma]

Pesty lunatic out of my house.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's. That's a wild. That's a.

[Emma]

Put them where the orphans are, where no one cares about people.

[Christine]

Put them on top of all the dead bodies. Yikes. Jesus, Pete.

[Emma]

So. And this was the temporary one, because I guess they were building the actual hospital across the river, I think. And so this was, like, the. The temporary one to put people and so they could put them in the permanent space. But the Pest house was used to keep people quarantined until they passed away, by the way. So this wasn't even really a true hospital. It was more like just a holding space until you died.

[Christine]

Hide them from the general populace.

[Emma]

Yeah, and then they could just be buried in the potter's field, which they were sitting on top of. So. Yeah, I feel like a lot of people are building institutions on here with, like, the plan to bury the people staying in that building right outside.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

One note I have is that a different source said this was also a Civil War military hospital. Could have. I don't know more about that. I only saw that on one source. Very likely. And after the. After the permanent hospital was built, the. This property was then bought. Maybe you have context on this. The property was then bought by the North American Sanger Bun Society. No.

[Christine]

Is that like sa with an omlaut. Nger? Like singers?

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Okay, so you don't know Singing group. I mean, I know what those words mean, but I've never heard of it. Like, I know it means like, a group of singers, but I'm like, is this like a. This is so annoying. Germans are so, like, up in everyone's.

[Emma]

I mean, singerbund, I would imagine, means singer band. Right.

[Christine]

Bunt is like. Well, bunt is like, to bind. So like a connection. So bunt is like, so like a group or like a. A cohesion or like a. Yeah, a bond.

[Emma]

A bond.

[Christine]

Exactly.

[Emma]

Sinker bond. I'm trying to just white whitewash it. American wash it. English wash it as much as I can.

[Christine]

It's. It's plenty whitewashed. Don't worry.

[Emma]

So, fun fact. This is where I take. I get away from this building for a second and just tell you about the Singer Bun Society. Cincinnati has lots of music and singing societies, apparently. Did you know this?

[Christine]

Yeah, ish. But also, I never know how much is just my mother trying to, like, tell me fanciful tales and how much is. Is real, factual evidence.

[Emma]

So I feel like you're gonna get a lecture from your mom after this and maybe me, because I'm saying the history wrong. I don't know.

[Christine]

I think we're gonna hear from her one way or another.

[Emma]

Well, Cincinnati, maybe it's underground, or maybe it's just not a part of your Cincinnati world. But there are a lot of singing societies. Most of them. Which would explain why you're not that involved. Most of them are made up of four part harmony German adult men. So maybe you're just not hanging out in the right groups.

[Christine]

No, I am. Trust me. My mother is Part of the Germania German Society, and they have some singing groups.

[Emma]

Okay, great.

[Christine]

It's definitely a thing. I think probably back then, it was a much bigger deal. Like, it held the more sway than. And now just kind of retired men just like singing on the weekends with their beer.

[Emma]

I feel like it was maybe the German or musical equivalent of like, a Moose lodge.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Emma]

And, like, no one does it anymore. I mean, I joined one, but then I realized nobody my age was there, so I left.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's sort of like a relic from the past. It's still fun, but, like, it's not as prominent as it was back then.

[Emma]

Like, all of our dads run bowling league, so now no one does that.

[Christine]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[Emma]

So, yeah, this was just another version of that. So these groups ended up finding others like them across the Midwest. There was a whole bunch. I guess they found out there was a bunch of German people, especially German men with an interest in singing. They all got together, all found each other across the Midwest, and they called themselves the North American Sanger Bun Society. And they then created the country's very first Sanger Fest, which is a traveling musical festival between different cities with big German populations. So if you go to the Minneapolis. I don't. I'm just picking a random Midwest place.

[Christine]

Yeah. There are also a lot of Germans up there. Yeah, Germans are like St. Louis and. And Wisconsin and.

[Emma]

Well, I guess everywhere. Every one of them, they. They. Every year, one of them volunteers to have a Sanger Fest. And everyone comes from all the Midwest cities to sing together.

[Christine]

Beautiful.

[Emma]

When they hosted Sangerfest in Cincinnati, the society needed more space, and so they quickly built onto this. You know, it was this asylum on top of a potter's field that became this hospital for temporarily. And now that the hospital had moved out, the Sanger Bun Society bought this so they could have their singing fraternity there, I guess. And then they hosted Sanger Fest, and they were like, well, we could host at our place, but it's not big enough. So we're gonna build an addition. Basically, that's the.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay.

[Emma]

Spark notes of all this. So the original building, plus its additions made up what would eventually be called Sanger hall, which was. It was also called the Exposition Building.

[Christine]

Yeah, I know, Exactly. Yeah.

[Emma]

Okay. So that's why it is so big, is because they had to.

[Christine]

So crazy. Okay.

[Emma]

Yeah. They had to build it out for all the Midwest German men who sing.

[Christine]

I mean, what better reason could there be?

[Emma]

I can't like, one.

[Christine]

No.

[Emma]

It also shows that, like, in the 1800s, we were just doing anything. Like, we just had nothing but, like, no, really.

[Christine]

And then it's like, oh, well, should this be an orphanage? Maybe a hospital? Should we get a bunch of German men to sing hallelujah in here? Like, I don't know, whatever you want it to be. The world is your oyster, dude.

[Emma]

Also, I'm. This is not a diss to the German language, although it is, you know, stereotypically a very intense language. Imagine it's. It's. You're on a potter's field with 10,000 dead people in the ground. Then it was a. An orphan asylum where children also died and were buried on the property. And then it was a, quote, lunatic asylum where all of the mentally ill people were also. Or were also buried there. And now it's just a cathedral of German singing. It's, like, just couldn't sound more Transylvanian to me. Just like. It is.

[Christine]

It's haunting. Truly haunting every way. I mean, imagine. Ready?

[Emma]

Oh, boy.

[Christine]

I'm trying to do the harmony. Oh, wait, no, wait. That's a. That's a lullaby. I used to. When Leona was a baby, I would sing that for, like, hours. So once I start get going, it just, like, doesn't stop.

[Emma]

The way that on day one of this podcast, you said, I'll never speak German, and now you're fucking singing it, babe.

[Christine]

Now I'm like, harmonize with me.

[Emma]

And also you. By still having, like, a soft, nice voice. Like, you still didn't make it sound.

[Christine]

Like that was my example to be like, you can probably try to make it less, like, grating, you know, if you. If I think singing also takes away a lot of the harshness, because if you think about, like, when people sing in English and it's hard to tell if they have, like, an accent or if they have a dialect, I feel like it takes some of that harshness away. So they're just probably tricking you.

[Emma]

That's a great point, because in my head, the inside of these walls sounds like, oh, fortuna or something.

[Christine]

Like, Ye Stein. Like, yeah.

[Emma]

Oh, well, thank you for the reference. That actually does help. That. It does help.

[Christine]

You're so welcome.

[Emma]

So. Wow. I can't get over. I just. I didn't even ask you to do that. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

I don't know why.

[Emma]

That's incredible.

[Christine]

I don't know why that happened.

[Emma]

That was a mad. That was a masterful experience.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Emma]

So the exposition building would also host the. Not the first, but the second May Music Festival.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, I know about this.

[Emma]

Okay.

[Christine]

So this is I think a more like. Like a more like well known thing.

[Emma]

And it is hosted by the Music hall today, right, so.

[Christine]

Oh, I think so.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

That probably is why.

[Emma]

Yeah, so it's. That means the very. The second one, not the first one, but the one after that was hosted all in that building all the way back then too. So it's been hosted since its inception, basically. And what is the May Music Festival for people? It's just type of music.

[Christine]

It's. I've never been. I feel like it's as far as I like. It was one of those things. Tell me if you have something similar. But to me it was like where the only people who went were like people's parents. Like, it's. It's basically like a coral. Coral Music Festival. Like. Like choirs and.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And it would be like you'd have like my dad, I think, in one of his bathrooms has like a poster that says like Mayfest, like 1994. And it's like in the park and people are. I. I don't know. It just seems kind of like a very old timey tradition.

[Emma]

Yeah. I feel like. Like it's like a. Like a choral concert or something.

[Christine]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, not necessarily my jam, you know, not me.

[Emma]

Me either. I. If someone invited me, I think I would say, no, thank you.

[Christine]

I would be like, what's the food situation? You know, like, whether. Do I have to sit and watch the whole thing or can I.

[Emma]

What do I have to wear?

[Christine]

What do I have to wear is a good question.

[Emma]

How long will it be? What's the party situation?

[Christine]

As an example, a picture of like one of the events in Music Hall. And like, I think you and I would be so far away from this that we wouldn't even be on the same orbit as these people if this were occurring anywhere nearby. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not sitting in one of those chairs down there and watching this.

[Emma]

I'm good.

[Christine]

I'm good.

[Emma]

To the people who love that. I'm so glad for you.

[Christine]

I respect music of all sorts. It's just not for me, this kind.

[Emma]

We all know I like the whimsy and there just isn't anything whimsical about that.

[Christine]

Yeah, we need a lot more rattle dazzle. Yeah.

[Emma]

As someone with ADD add, I really need someone to like.

[Christine]

My palms are sweating looking at those rows of seats where you're in the middle and you can't get out and everyone near you is wearing like wool or tweet tweed.

[Emma]

Yeah. It also you know what it is? I think it's because it looks like a place where I can't laugh. And I, I, if I'm not allowed to giggle somewhere, then I don't really want to be there.

[Christine]

Fair enough.

[Emma]

Okay. Anyway, they hosted the second May. May Music festival here. And something very historical to this inside musical happens at what? The second May Music festival?

[Christine]

A fire?

[Emma]

No, something less intense than that.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Emma]

But okay.

[Christine]

President came.

[Emma]

No.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Emma]

A thunderstorm came. Oh. And this music festival was attended by a big businessman in the area named Reuben Springer. If Springer means anything to you in Cincinnati, it is about him. He went to this music festival at the Exposition building, which would one day be the music hall.

[Christine]

And. What, sorry, what year was this? Like the 1880s or something?

[Emma]

I don't. It was in the 1870s.

[Christine]

Okay. Okay. I'm just trying to get my brain to picture Reuben Springer correctly.

[Emma]

Sure. Which, by the way, reminder that 1818-the 1870s is not a long time for this many dead people to now be in the grant. You know what I mean? And like.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, only a couple decades. True.

[Emma]

Yeah. So a lot of history has already happened here.

[Christine]

That's crazy.

[Emma]

But then Ruben Springer comes to the May music festival and there is a horrendous storm outside. And remember I told you that they were going to host music festivals at this place? The Sangerbin Society was gonna host music festivals here, but they didn't have enough space. They kind of just slapped together as much additional space as possible.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

So they did it with really cheap materials just to get it up in time. Time.

[Christine]

That's not very German of them.

[Emma]

And basically Reuben Springer went to this thing and he was pissed that this world class music that was being performed here not only, I'm sure visually didn't look its best, but he couldn't hear anything because the acoustics were so bad. Because the storm outside was just pouring in through these like very thin wooden walls. It had a tin roof. So like, remember we had a show at a place that had a tin roof and it was storming outside and.

[Christine]

No one came to hear. It was, was aliens. And we, everyone was like, it's. It's rain or hail. I'm like, it's at least hail. That's interesting, guys.

[Emma]

Like, I mean, we had microphones on a stage and people could not hear us. It was so.

[Christine]

It was so loud.

[Emma]

It's like, who built a tin roof over a comedy club? What is wrong with you? Anyway, the thunder outside and the rain outside was distracting him from the Music so much. And he was this big rich man that he was like freaking this. And he basically, he made the director or the, the conductor or whatever literally pause the performance halfway until the storm continue.

[Christine]

Which has to be so embarrassing bold that you're just like, I'm just gonna get up and stop him real quick.

[Emma]

Did he just shout from the audience? He was like, make it stop.

[Christine]

Like, halt. Everybody stop. Cut. Like cut.

[Emma]

You're not embarrassing.

[Christine]

What the. You're not the conductor. Also, like, we were just saying it doesn't even look like you're allowed to laugh in there, let alone like stop the performance in the middle of it. As an member guy.

[Emma]

Well, this all had Springer so up in arms that he decided he was going to create the Cincinnati Music hall association and he fundraised the demolition of the exhibition building.

[Christine]

You know, he also had like a. A tiff or something with somebody there. Like, there's no. He had to have a personal, like.

[Emma]

A girl projected him there or something.

[Christine]

Or like one of these sanger buns like stole his girlfriend or something.

[Emma]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's just that good of a singer. Could never be me, man. So he was like, fine, I'm actually going to demolish this entire fucking building on the property.

[Christine]

Fine.

[Emma]

But I'm going to construct on top of it the Cincinnati Music Hall.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Emma]

And so the only reason the Cincinnati Music hall stands today is because this guy didn't like that the last one had a tin roof, basically.

[Christine]

Fair enough. I. I should thank you, sir. Ruben.

[Emma]

And in 18, it was getting built from 1876 to 1878. And then the construction, of course, I did the math for you. It was, it was a 20,000 square foot music hall still, as I think, or maybe it's grown and it cost 300 grand back then in the 1870s. $300,000.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Emma]

You want to take a whack at how much that is today?

[Christine]

Six million, Nine million. Nine million. Oh, my Lord in heaven.

[Emma]

And Springer paid for over half of it himself.

[Christine]

Oh, wow.

[Emma]

I can't imagine hating something so much that I'm willing to spend four and a half million dollars at least. Probably five or six million dollars to make a different version of it. I don't have to be like, fix the roof. Like, what kind of money? That's some Taylor Swift money.

[Christine]

Be like, that's like. When they say like, oh, that would be the equivalent of like $40 to you. It's like, that is probably what it was like. Yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

But during this construction, this Is where they found the first round of human remains from the potter fields.

[Christine]

Did they forget they were there?

[Emma]

I guess they forgot.

[Christine]

Like, it's like, what, 60 years ago, right?

[Emma]

Yeah. So I guess if you dig deep enough. And so the papers at the time said that it wasn't just like a little bit of human rains. Boxes of bones were being pulled out of the ground during this excavation. Boxes and boxes and boxes of bones. And the remains had not been dug up until now. Even though something else had been built on the property. Because it was all so slapped together that they never went deep enough into the foundation to find bodies. Oh.

[Christine]

So they were like, we're good until now.

[Emma]

Which also, like, there was a hospital. There was a whole orphanage here. Like, and they just never actually structurally built this thing properly.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, it didn't matter then. But now that Reuben's gonna have a seat in this place, we gotta make it tip top, baby.

[Emma]

Also unsure what to do with the remains, some, not all, were brought to Spring Grove Cemetery. Can you imagine if this is the cemetery you live on top of? That'd be crazy.

[Christine]

I live right by it. It's huge. It's one of the. It's like the big. Biggest in town. And it's very famous. And it's like an arboretum and the gardens. Like, you can do, like, all these big garden tours. It's. I've done them a lot because my stepmom's really into plants. And they do a lot of tours and stuff. My mom just did one there. And we used to go bike riding in there. It's beautiful.

[Emma]

Perfect.

[Christine]

Well, but yeah, very haunted and very big.

[Emma]

Well, a lot.

[Christine]

It is literally 4 minutes. It's like 2 or 3 minutes maybe by car.

[Emma]

LOL. At least it's not the one that you. You live on.

[Christine]

No, thankfully. Wild.

[Emma]

So these remains were brought to Spring Grove Cemetery. At least some of them were. And that becomes a constant thing as more and more remains are found. Only that only some of them are brought to the cemetery. And some of them are just reburied somewhere else on the current potter's field property. I don't know why they pick.

[Christine]

How they determine that. That's kind of creepy.

[Emma]

Well, in the 1920s. So that was in the 1870s. They were digging all this up. And they found all. All these boxes and boxes of rice. In the 1920s, that's 50 years later, during another wave of construction, workers unearthed three coffins. And one was actually, interestingly. Interestingly enough, was from a. One of the coffins had a fully Legible headstone from the 1830s, which was almost 100 years old at the time.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Emma]

And it was perfectly legible.

[Christine]

And it was underground.

[Emma]

It's underground.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Emma]

Which, like, what is that story?

[Christine]

It just, like, dumped it on top of it. Yeah. Oh, it's so creepy, dude.

[Emma]

Before they could do anything about these bodies, some grave robbers heard about it and stole some of the pieces. But as for the rest of the remains, they were reburied not just on the property, but in the new elevator shaft they were constructing in that moment.

[Christine]

Yes, I. I know that story. I know of that story vaguely. That the elevator shaft has body. Yeah, yeah.

[Emma]

I can't understand why on earth you would go, oh, my God, we found bodies under this building we're trying to build. Let's put them back in the building at a different spot. How does that fudgeing make sense?

[Christine]

It's a very pristine move. We'll just put it over here.

[Emma]

Well, there's a hole we just dug.

[Christine]

Fixes the problem.

[Emma]

Maybe they were on time crunch. I don't know. Well, soon after this, construction workers found even more remains, including in one of the locations, they found 65 graves.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Emma]

And they nicknamed that area the Valley of Death. Woof.

[Christine]

Okay. God, that's a lot.

[Emma]

So that's 65 then. And that's just in one section. They found. There was other bodies. They found then the three bodies they put in the elevator shaft, then the boxes of bodies from 50 years ago. And now in 1969, even more remains were found under the auditorium. And in 1988, the same remains buried under the elevator shaft were found again.

[Christine]

Okay, that's what I knew, but that they found bodies. So I thought I had it mixed up, but it was just, they found bodies, they also put them there. Then later they were dug up, they.

[Emma]

Found them there, they put them back in there, then they were found again. And I'm assuming they found additional remains nearby. But what's extra creepy. So let's go back to what year was that that found the elevator shaft story? That was. Oh, oh, the first one in the 19. Where the fuck was the Oliver shaft? Oh, okay, so in the 1920s, they found those three coffins, one with a fully legible headstone.

[Christine]

Right.

[Emma]

And then grave robbers came and took some of it. But whatever was left, they put in the elevator shaft. So it was found in the 1920s, put in the elevator shaft at that point. And then 60 years later, in the 80s, they were refound. But what you didn't know before this moment was that There were several other remains nearby and only three of them had been been found previously.

[Christine]

And what's crazy, it's like every 20 years, they're like, they must know what's gonna happen. It happens every time.

[Emma]

It's like imagine one of those cameras. We can see a body under the ground.

[Christine]

Yeah. I mean it would just be like. And I guess I get it, like, what are you gonna do? Tear the whole building down so you can. I mean, I. I don't know what you would do, but it's just like, well, bananas to me.

[Emma]

The extra eerie thing of, like I said, not just finding those three bodies, but to know in future hindsight that there was actually several more bodies. They had, they were just, they were digging next to, but didn't know about in the 80s, when they refound these remains that everyone knew about, what they ended up finding, in addition to that was over 200 pounds of bones. Oh God. And then they were all reburied in another area on the property. Not Spring Grove Cemetery, just another area on the property. So they just got. Just keep finding and reburying, finding and rebury on the same property of these bones.

[Christine]

And it's like.

[Emma]

Bones.

[Christine]

So it's like, it's not like every person gets their own plot. It just feels like they're kind of just getting tossed in.

[Emma]

Some of them. Some of these remains specifically were transferred to the University of Cincinnati for research, but most of them were just reburied on the property again, which, like this is in the 1980s. Like that feels recent enough that we should have known to put them in a cemetery.

[Christine]

Yeah. I wonder if it was like there's like a, a precedent. Like, oh well, if you find bodies in, in a spot that used to be a graveyard, you can't like move them. You know, maybe there's something like that. But it seems weird because it's like it was a.

[Emma]

You're still kind of uprooting it and putting it somewhere else.

[Christine]

Kind of a half assed graveyard. It wasn't really official. It was just kind of slap shod like.

[Emma]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Thrown together.

[Emma]

Anyway. Well, Most recently in 2016, 2017, which is not that long ago. That's within the last years. Construction under the. Either under the orchestra pit or near the orchestra pit had people finding even more remains. This time they found Jesus. Four more bodies and six grave shafts.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Emma]

And they were anticipated to be reburied in Spring Grove Cemetery? It's assumed that they were, but I did not see any update. Like the, the article I found was like the Breaking news. We found more bodies here. Can you believe? Believe it. And then it was like, we're.

[Christine]

Everyone's like, yeah, we can.

[Emma]

And they were like, the plan is Spring Grove Cemetery. But I don't know if that actually happened.

[Christine]

Okay. I never. Like, yeah.

[Emma]

So anyway, these are just two of my favorite quotes that I found in all these articles. Each time construction is done at the Cincinnati Music hall, more bones are unearthed. Not a foot of ground lies under the exposition building, unoccupied by moldering bones. On top of this, Cincinnati Music hall is near other formal burial barrier burial grounds. Washington park used to be a spot with multiple burial grounds all sharing the same property. So it was like two or three different burial grounds all combined into one big plot. And then they just built Washington park on top of it.

[Christine]

Yeah. And it's beautiful. And it has a dog park, and it's free, and they have a bar, and they have, like, outdoor bar, and they do shows and flea markets and, like, craft fairs, and it's right in front of city Hall. It's so beautiful. And then somewhere, inevitably, if I'm your friend and I'm there with you, I go, hey, guess what? Employees is like, don't start. And then I'm like, there goes underneath us.

[Emma]

All I'm saying is that first thing you said was dog park. First thought I had was so the dogs can literally dig up bones.

[Christine]

I mean, yeah, probably.

[Emma]

And Hank Wood, by the way, he's in a real digging phase these days.

[Christine]

Oh, that's rough. Because Geo does that too. And it really with my yard.

[Emma]

Oh, my yard.

[Christine]

I have, like, three feet of green, but that up.

[Emma]

One of the things I've had to learn is how to, like, replant, like, all this stupid grass.

[Christine]

He literally ripped my whole rose bush out. I'm like, that's the only plant I have. Leave it alone.

[Emma]

He's truly a living, breathing dowsing rod because the way that he. He always digs and finds, like, a really intense water source. Isn't that so creepy?

[Christine]

He is a dowsing rod.

[Emma]

Like, at the dog park, he. I'm so sorry to everyone at that dog park. He dug a real crater recently, and he found, literally, the pipes that led to, like, the water. Water.

[Christine]

What the.

[Emma]

And it was like. I was like, how did you know.

[Christine]

That I was there anyway, He's a super dog.

[Emma]

Just pain in my ass. So, yes. Anyway, fun fact, over 80 bodies were. Were found. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So we were talking about Washington park when they were building Washington Park's parking garage. If you Know where that is?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Emma]

That alone, during excavation, they found 80 bodies.

[Christine]

Oh. Cause it's under. It's actually under the park, so that would make sense. Cause you have to climb up into the park. Oh. Ew. So it really is just, like.

[Emma]

It's just everywhere.

[Christine]

Right in there. We're just surrounded.

[Emma]

So it's not even the Cincinnati Music hall, although that is my topic today. It's just the areas everywhere are just. Everything is just a potter's field in Cincinnati.

[Christine]

Wow. Yeah, I guess so. Oops.

[Emma]

So, for obvious reasons, many people believe Cincinnati Music hall is haunted. I mean, the body's alone, but the fact that there's also so much history. There was the explosion, the cholera outbreaks, the floods. There's the orphanage. There was a, quote, lunatic asylum. And a lot of people with, like. Who probably just had some rough luck.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

All getting buried there and. And then bodies were being found and reburied and found. Reburied.

[Christine]

So they've had no closure and just, like, discarded or just reburied. And also, like, I'm assuming a lot of these people are nameless, identityless, and.

[Emma]

Yeah, they're a potter's field. They were unclaimed bodies, so we don't have.

[Christine]

And on top of that, like, you have a place where people are performing and people are getting emotional. I mean, as emotional as you can get at, like, a choir show, but, you know, like, others, like an opera or, like, where people are, like, theaters. You know, they're already really active. Yeah. Energetically. So that would probably just mix it all up, you know?

[Emma]

Yeah. Or like, what if you're singing a song from their favorite time period or something, you know? And I'm sure there's.

[Christine]

Is that it? Is that the one?

[Emma]

I was thinking. I mean, I don't know what song I was thinking, but I'm sure there's something where, like, you're accidentally, like, not conjuring something, but you're inviting stuff in or, you know, something like that.

[Christine]

If you're connecting with something.

[Emma]

Connecting. Or anything. Welcoming people and welcoming spirits and. Yeah, anyway, it's just super haunted. The Travel Channel actually named this one of the most terrifying places in America. Congratulations, Christine. Um, people is just some of the things people report. They report an eerie stillness when they're alone, a sense of dread when they're alone, something staring at you, Cold chills. Despite the heat outside or even inside, they'll just be like pockets of really weird air. People feel a presence near the ballroom. They'll see shadows and photos. They hear something being Dragged through the halls. I actually, there was one guy who said that he. It sounded like someone was dragging their boots and a gun through the hall. And I was like, that's.

[Christine]

Wait, I feel like they told us that on the ghost tour or on one of the ghost tours where they said, like, it sounded like the dragging. Yeah. Ew. I feel like I've heard that.

[Emma]

Which is. Would have. Although I didn't see this in a lot of sources that would validate the history that this was a Civil War hospital at one point.

[Christine]

True, true, true.

[Emma]

But it sounded like, like, a guy who was just dragging, like, his gear.

[Christine]

Through the hall, like, rifle or something.

[Emma]

Yeah. People also hear angry whispering. They hear maniacal laughter. They hear giggling. They hear doors opening and closing by themselves. They hear heavy footsteps that don't seem to be hiding, that they're heavy footsteps are very loud. Phantom violin music. There's a woman singing in the halls in the morning. There are a lot of security guards who are like, I know that I'm alone here, and yet it sounds like there's five people upstairs.

[Christine]

That's. Yeah. When the security guard gets freaked out, that's what I'm like. Okay. I trust you, because you are supposed to know these things.

[Emma]

Yeah. Somehow, I don't know how she did it, but she's done it again. The lady in white was there.

[Christine]

Oh, she's everywhere. Of course. She's gonna go to a Zanga bond festival. She's heard my lullaby.

[Emma]

She's like, I'm here for eternity, and you're telling me that they're singing. I'm absolutely. I am German. At this point, it is only one woman in white, and she just knows the way through portal into every haunted location.

[Christine]

Oh, you're right. And she's just, like, kind of summoned. She just, like, follows the wind, you know, wherever it takes you.

[Emma]

I'm so over her. She is all over the place.

[Christine]

I can't get enough of her.

[Emma]

I. If, you know, if I am to be a ghost that haunts, I hope I have the superpowers. She does.

[Christine]

I mean, you literally dressed as her. You must. Even though you. You have, like, a frenemy thing going on.

[Emma]

I think there's a. It's. You know, I haven't admitted to myself yet that it's a jealousy.

[Christine]

Means a little something. Yeah.

[Emma]

I just don't know how she does it. And, like, stay out of my stories. I'm so tired of you. Like, give someone else a chance.

[Christine]

This isn't about you. You.

[Emma]

So, yeah. A woman in A white dress has been seen apparently dancing as if she is having a good time at this singing musical stuff. Also, there are formally, formally dressed, very fancy people dancing together in one of the rooms. Another woman is seen dancing by herself. Or she'll walk down the hall and turn and see you, and then she'll fade away in front of you. People have also seen apparitions in old fashioned fancy clothes watching the performances and thought they were actors. So they were sitting next to someone in the audience and was like, oh, my God, this is like, so immersive, fun.

[Christine]

What? That is creepy.

[Emma]

And it was just like, someone that does not.

[Christine]

Hey, the Houdini show should do a show here. Because I feel like that would be right online, right in line with their whole thing, you know?

[Emma]

Do you imagine if they accidentally summoned Harry Houdini? That'd be crazy.

[Christine]

How cool. Finally.

[Emma]

I know. I've been waiting for that one.

[Christine]

Took him long enough.

[Emma]

So no, A lot of people have said, like, after the fact, oh, my God, I love that you guys used actors in the audience. So it felt like we were all really there.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Emma]

Like, no, that wasn't us. Others have watched shadow people walk through the theater and the halls from one end of the room to the other. Actually, a lot of staff said that in interviews, but they were like, I heard that I'd be looking up and I would look at one of the halls, walls from downstairs, and I'd look up and I would just see a full person just walk across and as.

[Christine]

If, like, that's not cool. And that feels like very theater. Like, I feel like a lot of theaters have, like, people walking on, like, a catwalk or like in the audience, like, shadow figures. I don't like that.

[Emma]

I've been saying that a lot to myself recently when I'm just like, I don't like that. And I don't like that.

[Christine]

I just simply don't.

[Emma]

I don't know what we're gonna do.

[Christine]

About that, but more do you want? I don't like that.

[Emma]

Actually. Employees. Oh. Oh, no, no. One employee. This is a good one. One. One employee was actually on stage with his kid who was about Leona's age when the theater was empty, I guess, doing some last minute work or rehearsing or something. And the kid asked, who is that daddy who's sitting in the box and waving at us?

[Christine]

No, thanks.

[Emma]

And the theater was totally empty. So that was in box number nine. I guess box nine has. Is it known to be the Haunted Box?

[Christine]

Interesting.

[Emma]

Investigators have also sat on the stage and seen someone from the seats waving at them. Which confirmed terms with this little kid said, but they have just been standing on stage and all of a sudden you just see someone stand up from the seat and just wave at you. It's like so intentional.

[Christine]

I like that's what creeps me out is like it's intentional. I can like, they clearly see you.

[Emma]

I can get behind it being residual and like we're, you know, you're walking across the hall because that's what you were doing right before you died. But like the second you're intelligent and you acknowledge I'm looking for you, and then you stand up and literally put yourself in front of, of us. Which like, again, we've said this a million times, but how funny is it that like they're doing exactly what we want and they're thinking they're probably making us so happy and then we're just like, get away.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, oh, we're just trying to.

[Emma]

Yeah, well. Oh, this also most happens in a box nine and the box nine seats and the seats in the theater are also spring loaded by the way. So as soon as someone gets out of them, they should pop back up. And there are some seats that will just stay down no matter what. And it, it's only when you feel like someone's staring at you.

[Christine]

Yuck. Because they do. They're like those old timey seats that just like boing right back up and it just.

[Emma]

Someone's sitting there. Another person saw a balloon with a weight on it, I guess to like be a centerpiece at a table. Watched it float down the hallway and the words they actually used was it hopped down the hall by itself.

[Christine]

Like a little kid took it.

[Emma]

Oh yeah. One employee actually heard, kept hearing the. Over at the box office he kept hearing like the concierge bell or the customer service bell dinging. And when he would check nobody was there, then he would leave and he'd hear the dinging again. He'd come back out, nothing was there. He'd leave and the thingy would happen. And eventually the last time he checked it, he felt something tug on his shirt. And when he looked down, he saw a whole ass child in old fashioned clothes clothing staring at him. Which, like it didn't even occur to me. That could be one of the kids from the orphanage. Yeah, yeah, they're also. There are other little kid apparitions all seen through the building, especially the kids one.

[Christine]

So it's always surprised me, but I guess it does make sense. With that orphanage. Because I was like, this place isn't, like, very kid friendly, but that does.

[Emma]

Yeah, they must be from the orphanage, but they're. They're seen a lot. That would also explain some of the giggling that people hear here. If anyone has ever felt their own clothes being tugged, maybe it was a kid. And in one area of the theater that's now, like, the backstage area, right behind the curtains, apparently one group saw a little girl over there. She just appeared in front of them and told them not to go in the basement because bad things happened there. And when they looked back, she had totally. She was gone.

[Christine]

And what do you think happened in the basement?

[Emma]

I have no idea. But in my mind, the basement is where they all got buried. Buried.

[Christine]

Right. I don't like that.

[Emma]

Like, did something worse happen first?

[Christine]

Anything else happen? Yeah, did something happen to her? Is she buried there?

[Emma]

I have no idea, but she just went away. And. And nobody knew who this little girl was. They. She. Yeah. Now, the freight elevator, which. The elevator shaft stories. The freight elevator used to move all by itself between floors. Even when nobody was pressing a button to even call the elevator employees would say. This one guy in particular, he had a very creepy interview where he was like, you would be 50ft away from the elevator, and you would watch button turn on, like, as if someone called the elevator in front of you. And then the elevator would start moving to your floor.

[Christine]

And then you're like, do I walk backwards? Yeah, like, you take. I'll take the next one.

[Emma]

Do you want me to go in.

[Christine]

There, or are you calling it for me? Yeah, like, oh, God.

[Emma]

The creepiest accounts are definitely the security guards there. There was one watchman who heard knocking on the main door when it was snowing out. And when he went to look out, there was nobody there. And there were no footprints in the snow leading up to the theater.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Emma]

Another time, he heard music playing from nowhere, and so he went looking for it. And when he got on the elevator, his whole body started to tingle. And for, like, days after that, he could not go to the elevator without his body getting the same tingling feeling.

[Christine]

What is that about?

[Emma]

I have no clue, But I certainly hate it.

[Christine]

I also hate it. Thanks.

[Emma]

Another watchman. This is a quote who said, you hear music playing somewhere late at night when you know no one is there. And when you get there, you find it coming from some other place. You go to that place, and then you hear it coming from another place. So the music. Music would. You would play chase with this music?

[Christine]

Yes. Okay.

[Emma]

And then another quote. This is a long one, but it's super worth it. The weirdest and strangest noises would occur at intervals all night long. Wrappings on the ceiling, under the floor, on the doors and windows. The sound of stealthy footfalls behind me or of loud trampling before me. The crash of heavy timbers thrown from the ceiling glass dashed upon the floor. Of heavy bodies being dragged over the plane planks. They never touched me, but I always knew when they were around by an icy chill, a thrill as of electricity, a feeling that what the French call a poodle or goose. Goose flesh. Goosebumps. They never annoy me now by mere knocking and rapping. Because I've gotten used to it. So used to it that sometimes when people have really knocked at the door, I didn't open because I thought it was only the dead that kept knocking. Knocking, whoa.

[Christine]

So they're like, oh, it's a ghost. They're like, no, this time it's actually a real person.

[Emma]

I'm actually out here. So.

[Christine]

Surprise.

[Emma]

Despite the activity, none of the spirits seem dangerous, which is good, but that's good for those who are skeptical. One of the music directors literally said, okay, then come here at 3:00am and like, yeah, challenge them. It's okay.

[Christine]

Yeah, you fucking be security.

[Emma]

The only TV show I saw that has been here was not Ghost Adventures, but Ghost Hunters. And for those who can Access is Season 9, Episode 26. But it is nearly impossible to find unless you're willing to, like, get one of those, like, weird, random side channels.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah. And like, download something shady. Yeah.

[Emma]

So I did not watch it, but it does exist. And if you're interested, the music hall does have. It is a location on many ghost tours. And I think they do their own ghost tours too.

[Christine]

They do. That's newer. That was when I moved away and I remember being like, damn it. It. Like, of course now they do it, but, yeah, I haven't been yet.

[Emma]

I would love to go get you.

[Christine]

A ticket, but next year.

[Emma]

Anyway. That is the Cincinnati Music Hall. I'm sorry it was so long, but I wanted to get everything, so I wanted to do your town justice.

[Christine]

That was so lovely. I feel like I learned so much. I had no idea. I feel like those people at the bookstore learning from our wonderful book.

[Emma]

Well, now you can go over to Leona and be like, did you know? And then she can tell all of her little kid friends. Be like, there are bodies in there.

[Christine]

And blood bodies everywhere. My mommy told me all about it. Yeah, it's normal. It's normal behavior.

[Emma]

Oh my gosh.

[Christine]

Cool story.

[Emma]

We all know Christine is not the world's biggest horror movie fan. However, the movie Keeper is coming out. I'm very excited about it. It's going to be a good one.

[Christine]

I'm committing to the bit.

[Emma]

It's going to be a good one. From Osgood Perkins, the director of Long Legs and the Monkey comes a new breed of Nightmare. And Master of Horror. James Wan, creator and of the Conjuring, praises Keeper as a terrifying ghostly descent into madness, which is 10 out of 10 to me.

[Christine]

Don't miss the horror event of the season. Keeper opens in theaters nationwide November 14th.

[Emma]

Christine, I'm bad with my money. No. Yeah. Well, just ask all the Pokemon in my binder. But luckily these days, you know, we have Chime. It helps us so much. It certainly helps me and um, it takes away a lot of the headaches that I've got going on it, you know, all the way down to was it overdraft fees in college? So that was a struggle.

[Christine]

So when you set up direct deposit through Chime, you get access to fee free features like free overdraft coverage, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit and more. You can learn more about [e-mail] drink to date Chime has spotted members over $30 billion, not to mention access to over 47,000 fee free ATMs, which is hard enough as it is, you know, to find a fee free atm. So that's more than the top three national banks combined. So I think that's an easy yes from me.

[Emma]

It certainly is for someone who has about a thousand Pokemon screaming out of the binder that I I need to stop. I can use a helping hand along the way to being a Pokemon master. Work on your financial goals through Chime today. Open an account in 2 [e-mail] drink that's chime.com drink Chime feels like progress.

[Christine]

Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA members. FDIC spot me Eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Timing depends on submission of payment file. Fees apply at out of network ATMs. Bank ranking and number of ATMs according to U.S. news and World Report 2023 Chime checking account required. Okay, so we are back from the intermission. Speaking of music hall, we just had a lovely, classy intermission.

[Emma]

We played soft classical piano in the back.

[Christine]

That's right. We said things like chow, chow, chow, chow and Reuben do Pass the potted quail.

[Emma]

Do fetch me a, a pail of crystal. I don't know.

[Christine]

Yep, that's what we said. And it was okay. Here we go. 457 is today's episode, and I'm going to tell you the story of a young woman who was the source of quite a lot of mystery in Sumter County, Florida for many decades. This is the case of Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee. And I'll explain all that. But first note here is that February 19, 1971, a woman's remains were found beneath the northbound span of I75 in Sumter County, Florida, near the Lake Panasofkee over pass. For almost 55 years, her identity was unknown and she was referred to only as Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee. But just five days ago, as we record this, like this past week, they have revealed the identity.

[Emma]

Oh, get out. Wow.

[Christine]

I know. I was like, looking at different stories. I'm like, this one's interesting. And then I saw like the, the, the time stamp and I was like, that was like a week ago. So this is a very timely story. And she's no longer a Jane Doe. So, you know, there's a little bit of closure here. So let's get into it. February 19, 1971. Two teenage hitchhikers find the partially submerged body of a young woman under the i75 bridge at Lake Panasoff Key, Sumter County, Florida. The remains were badly decomposed, and at the scene, investigators found that a men's size 36 leather belt had been fastened around her neck. And this indicated ligature strangulation. Investigators estimated she was between 17 and 24 years old, 5 foot 2 to 5 foot 5 and about 115 pounds. They could tell that after being strangled with the belt, she had then been wrapped in a blanket and thrown off the bridge.

[Emma]

Oh my God.

[Christine]

Off the overpass. It's just like horrific. She was clothed in a green shirt, green plaid pants, and a green floral poncho style shawl. And she wore a green gold watch, a gold necklace, and a ring with a transparent stone on her left hand ring finger. There were no missing persons report that matched her profile, so they buried her locally and she became known in the community as Little Miss Lake Panasofi.

[Emma]

Okay.

[Christine]

Fifteen years later, 1986, the body was exhumed for further forensic work because obviously technology had advanced by then. Not quite enough, but it had advanced. Investigators determined she had given birth to at least two children before her death. So she was presumably a mother in some Sense she had extensive dental work, including a porcelain crown on an upper right tooth. And she had had an operation on her right angle ankle. Okay. Over the decades, investigators would release, like, information about her, trying to get anybody to submit a tip or say, like, that sounds like my aunt or my long lost mother or something. And so they would release these details, and they would also release multiple facial reconstructions to try and figure out there are a bunch of them that they've made over the years of different ways she might have looked.

[Emma]

And how many people did you say, like, reached out? Did you say. Because that's a lot of. I mean, everyone, I feel like, knows someone who's had an operation on their ankle or, like, like, it's not a lot to go off of.

[Christine]

But, I mean, but if you're. But if you're. If you're like 17 to 21, 22, and you've had an operation on your ankle, I feel like that narrows it down. But like, nobody, nothing, nobody, nobody reported this person missing. No clue. So over the decades, investigators released multiple face facial reconstructions. The show or the story was even featured on a 1992 episode of Unsolved Mysteries. And some tips did come in, but there was no positive identification. Now we really Fast forward to 2012. Further forensic examinations, including isotope testing, suggested the victim may have grown up in Southern Europe, near Athens, Greece.

[Emma]

Okay, interesting. And the way I'm. I'm really throwing a wrench at you here. Do you. What is isotope testing specifically?

[Christine]

I'm so glad you asked, because I did go through, like, a minor rabbit hole on.

[Emma]

Because I've heard you say. But I don't know what it is, is.

[Christine]

And I believe it's called like a kind of a pseudo sciencey hokey kind of thing. I don't know if that's true, but I feel like people argue about the validity it is. I don't. I'm not like, super. I know you're gonna be shocked to hear this. I'm not super smart.

[Emma]

It's okay. But I knew I was like, really like you. That was.

[Christine]

Do you know that, like, have you heard of when people say, oh, like, we looked at their dietary and, like, where they might have grown up or the calcium in their teeth or something, and that's what they do to then determine where they may have grown up?

[Emma]

Sure.

[Christine]

So, like, I don't know if they tested her hair or her teeth or what, but something that they tested led them to believe she had grown up near Greece and had arrived in the US And I Think they can also tell through your hair, like, what you've been doing.

[Emma]

Hmm, interesting.

[Christine]

Eating and drinking. And I think there are some, some ways that you can test. So I don't know, I don't want to say it's a bunk science. I have no idea.

[Emma]

But I mean, I've heard you say it. Truly, I've heard it on Law and Order. Like, I just don't know. I just, I think it's just basically.

[Christine]

Taking elements of like. And trying to geographically train back. Yeah, yeah. So they determined she had been only in the US Only one to three months before being killed. So this obviously narrowed it down quite a bit. Bit. And as a result, the case was then featured on a Greek TV show. And this led one woman in Greece to call in a tip that she believed this woman was a friend named Constantina that she had lost touch with. This was a classmate she'd known from prep school in Greece where they were being trained to be domestic help. And as part of a work contract, Constantina had arrived in the United States within that one to three month period where they had claimed that she had entered the States. Although this seemed promising, it ended up being another dead end. And the woman was not in fact a Greek Constantina. So despite all these investigative efforts over the years, five decades passed with no identity for this young woman. Now we zoom to last week, okay, October 2025. Sumter County Sheriff's Office announced last week that Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee has been positively identified. On October 1st of 2025, latent prints from the 1971 case were submitted through a quote storm Automated Biometric Identification system.

[Emma]

So what's that one? Yeah, thanks.

[Christine]

This is not a bunk science. It is a, an automated system that has only been recently put into place in Florida. And it is a way to, you know, biometrics where they take your fingerprint and your fa, facial recognition and all that. They have like a. A very state of art system to trace fingerprints and other biometrics. And they had latent prints from 1971 from that case, but they hadn't run it through this new storm system.

[Emma]

Oh, okay, cool.

[Christine]

So they did in October last month and they got a match and it was like, holy. And it was a match for her, like her fingerprints.

[Emma]

So cool.

[Christine]

So they put the prints in and they matched a 1970 arrest record of a 21 year old woman in Hillsborough county named Maureen L. Minor Rowan. She had been born March 21, 1949, and her family, and to her family she was known as Cookie that was her nickname. Cookie Rowan was born in Maine, but lived in Tampa and was estranged from her husband, Charles Emery Rowan Senior. She also had ties to Jacksonville, Gainesville, and Enigma, Georgia. And she'd only been 21 when she was murdered. Side note here, the sheriff's office clarified that the initial assumption of the isotope test testing of her being a Greek immigrant was inaccurate because apparently the isotope test that they performed on her had been contaminated by the formaldehyde gel that they used back in the 70s. And this formaldehyde gel on the body apparently sent them, like, to Greece. They were like, oh, she's from Greece. But it was. So I think that's why it got a little. It gets flack because there are some.

[Emma]

Never even recurred to me. By the way, formaldehyde could be a gel. Like. Like, that's. You're just.

[Christine]

The maldehyde gel.

[Emma]

You're saying a lot of things to me that didn't even know it existed.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's kind of an icky one. And the fact that they like it says it was used in embalming in the 70s. And I'm like, I bet you they don't even use that anymore. I bet you there's just no.

[Emma]

I'm sure they.

[Christine]

Formaldehyde gel somewhere in a basement of music hall or something.

[Emma]

I know. I was literally. You said it first. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

[Christine]

No, no. And so I thought that was interesting because it's like, I guess if isotope testing can get contaminated by, like, embalming fluid fluids, then, like. Yeah, it is a little shadier than. I don't know, Whatever.

[Emma]

Yeah. It feels.

[Christine]

It feels like I Almost foolproof, maybe.

[Emma]

Yeah. I always think that new technology is like. Like you're. Like, we're already considering that it could. Like, we're already making it in a way. Way where that it won't get in the way of, like. I don't really know what I'm saying, but I would. I would imagine that if I built something to help identify people, it would first occur to me that, like, we don't want things in the system to. To mess all that up. I don't know. I don't really know what I'm saying. I just. I think of it as more foolproof every time when I. When I think. Oh, yeah, like, when I think of new technology, I think of other. Other factors not getting in its way. I just always think of it as, like, pretty.

[Christine]

No, you're right. Especially because, like, that was in 2012 and that was like very advanced, you know, for the time. And it was like clearly like got a lot of leads and went to Greek television and it's like, oh, even in 2012, like we're. Which makes you think, like, what now are we completely botching that we don't even realize.

[Emma]

Yeah, yeah. I just, I would, I would think that if it's being, if it's been built and is being used, then we've already considered that it, that nothing is going to get in its way and like the test results are going to be accurate or like.

[Christine]

Right. It's like a lie detector where it's like not allowed as evidence in court, but it's still used even though it's not foolproof. And like it's used as like a tool, but it's not necessarily foolproof. Yeah. So that's kind of how I, how I think about it. It's interesting though, like the, the idea of isotope testing one day, can you.

[Emma]

Cover, instead of doing like a, like a true crime case, would you just do an episode where you just like talk about all the different like ways that they are able, like all the techniques they are able to use to identify people and stuff? Yeah, I think that'd be super because like isotope testing or like. Yeah, like all the things that they talk like codis, like all the things that they use and how they, what they actually.

[Christine]

Genealogy. God, I could probably end up doing a whole series.

[Emma]

I feel like that could be a, that would be a nice one on one 101 of like what the are cops actually? What's at their desk?

[Christine]

What are like investigators using? Like what tools? Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's really interesting. I would love to look into that because I don't know too much. Okay, so we are back to October of this year. Sheriff Patrick Breeden stated, this case has been a mystery in Sumter county for almost 55 years. Five years. Today, little Miss Lake Panasoffkee finally has a name. At the time of her death, 21 year old Cookie Rowan lived at 1206 Windermere Way in Tampa with her two young children. But strangely, nobody had reported her missing at the time of her disappearance.

[Emma]

Yeah, or like who's watching her kids?

[Christine]

Yeah. So investigators said they interviewed people who knew her and as a result began focusing on her estranged husband, of course, Charles Emery Rowan Senior. Because what, why didn't he.

[Emma]

Oh, as soon as you said estranged, I went, well, I know who the prime suspect was.

[Christine]

Yeah, he's definitely a person of interest. And what they said about this was Emry's actions leading up to the separation and continuing after the discovery of Cookie's body are suspicious enough to list him as a person of interest, Captain Galvin said, but they don't have enough evidence to label him as a suspect. And he died in 2015, so there's no question mentioning him. So, you know, if something comes out any other way that that's possible to get more clarity. But we don't really know he is a person of interest, though. Captain John Galvin of the Sheriff's office says part of their investigation now that they've identified her body and have a person of interest, is trying to figure out why nobody reported her missing in 1971. He said what he had heard through interviewing family members and people who knew her is that there was some suggestion that her husband told family members that she left on her own and didn't want to be bothered, you know, or what have you. So we don't really know what happened. But her kids are still alive and have spoken out about this. And that breaks my heart because apparently it's been. It's been intimated, let's say it that way. And I've kind of inferred that the kids were told this story that her, Their mom just left and abandoned them.

[Emma]

Which alone is traumatic, right?

[Christine]

And then 55 years later to find out, like, oh, she was murdered, right? Like in our town. I mean, it's just a really jarring thing. As for what else, we don't quite know yet. And again, this is like a very recent development that we even know who it is. October 1st is when they found out, found out, or at least when they submitted the prints. And like, by the end of the month, they're like, we know who she is. We have her kids here at the press conference. Like, it's just wild how things move so fast.

[Emma]

I was gonna say it almost makes me angry. Like, how did we get all this in 24 hours when I've been waiting this long for anything? Like it just went from nothing to everything.

[Christine]

I'm telling you, Em, like there's something going on where it's just like things are going faster and faster, faster, like technology, like our. Our situations, our. Our political atmosphere. It's just like everything is like imploding at one. It feels like. Like I feel like next month it's going to be where we don't even know what the state of the world, what our lives are going to be like. Like things are moving so fucking fast.

[Emma]

It's whiplash, constant Whiplash.

[Christine]

It is whiplash. Yes. And so that's why I'm just, like, so startled, because I'm like, wow, within a month, like, they have all this information. So hopefully, essentially what I'm saying is I don't have the newest. Obviously, like, I don't have the current investigation information, but they are definitely looking into this further. Of course, what we don't know is the exact timeline of Cookie Rowan's movements before her death. We know Investigators estimate about 30 days between her death and when her body was found.

[Emma]

Okay.

[Christine]

The exact location of the homicide is unknown. Remember, they put her in a blanket and disposed of her at the bridge. But we don't know where she was actually killed.

[Emma]

Sure.

[Christine]

We don't know the motive or the co conspirators, if there were any. Despite her estranged husband being a person of interest, there have been no charges publicly disclosed.

[Emma]

And he's still alive?

[Christine]

No, he died in 2015. So there's no way to get, you know, obviously any. Any more information from him directly, but, like, who knows in his stuff or with. Or maybe talk to someone or maybe. Maybe he has. Who knows?

[Emma]

I mean, that's so frustrating, though, because it's like, we were just talking about, oh, we got so much information, but it's also like, I guess I kind of got no information. It's like, well, we know who she is, and I guess that's closure. But it's still like, well, what the.

[Christine]

Think about what a wealth of information you suddenly have. Like, you. You literally had nothing. And now it's like, oh, we have, like, an entire family dynamic. The kids are here. They know their dad. Like, you know, he has relatives. He lived till 2015, so he had a computer. He had a phone. Like, maybe they can go through and find something. I don't know. I don't really know. Maybe they can check codis. Just kidding. I haven't done the episode yet, guys. I don't know what any of it means.

[Emma]

Maybe.

[Christine]

No. So maybe. But. So we don't know that either. Whether he. We don't know whether he did it. We don't know whether he had a motive or whether he had co conspirators. And to close out here, I want to read a statement that one of Cookie's children released last week, Wednesday. For nearly 55 years, our family lived without answers about what happened to my mother. We now know that she was Little Miss Lake Panasofki, but she was more. She was a mother, a daughter, a sister, and a woman who deserved a full life. We are deeply grateful to the Sumter county detectives and the local community who never gave up on her. Now that she has been identified, our family can begin to heal. We ask anyone who has any information on who killed our mother to please come forward. So if you do, anybody out there have any information relevant to Maureen Cookie Rowan's life or death in 1971 in the Sumter County, Florida area, please contact the Sumter County Sheriff's Office tip line at 352-569-1915 or via email to Sumter tipsumtercountysherriff.org and that is the wildly recently updated long standing Cold case of Little Miss Lake Pierce.

[Emma]

I know that felt like more of an update than a story. Like, just. Cause there's like nothing.

[Christine]

There's nothing to go off of yet. So. Yeah, it was so just like 55 years in the making and now it's like getting a whole new breath of life.

[Emma]

I know this was your moment to be like the first on the ground to say something before it.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's me. I'm Barbara Walters. All right. You know, here I am.

[Emma]

Well, we'll get maybe another update.

[Christine]

If I'm Nancy Grace, look out.

[Emma]

Maybe as more comes out, we'll get another update on that because I would love to know what happens.

[Christine]

Yes, I'm definitely keeping tabs on it. And yeah, if you have any. Any insight, folks, and like, know more about it because there really wasn't too much online. But I just thought, like, like you said, it is so suddenly relevant that I was like, well, we should talk about it now, you know.

[Emma]

Yeah, it's. It's very rare that you do a topical story.

[Christine]

It is. And it was weird because I was looking up a bunch of different ideas. And then that one intrigued me, so I started, like, looking more. And then I realized, like, oh, if I Google it, like, there's like news from within the last 24 hours, you know, I was like, that's weird. So, yeah, very shocking.

[Emma]

Oh my gosh. Well, nice little. I don't know. I don't know what to call that. It was. It feels like. It feels like a. The beginning of what will be a continuation, I feel like.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's a good point. It's an introduction to the Little Miss Lake Panasoffkee story. And hopefully we'll lead to some more answers and more closure and more cold cases getting solved.

[Emma]

And I really do want to hear more about.

[Christine]

I would love to do something like.

[Emma]

That other ways that like all the. All the machines that they have that teach you how to do.

[Christine]

Like, I watch Bones, you know, remember when they had all these random fake machines? They're like, step into this. It tells you, like, what your brain is thinking right now. And I'm like, do people really believe this exists?

[Emma]

Well, so one of my best friends is a forensic pathologist, and so I. I'm sure she's got some intel. Yeah, but I. When it comes to just the police stuff, I'm like, what it. Like, what the hell is the isotope one? Always gets me because it sounds the most, like, Newtonian.

[Christine]

It does the isotope thing. And then people on Reddit were arguing, and I was like, I'm not going into this today, but. But, yeah, I. I'm curious about it, and I. I want to admit right here, I know next to nothing about it. It's just to find environmental conditions and try to trace it back somewhere. But, yeah, maybe there's like, a deep dive. I love, like, a deep dive, like, YouTube video. Like something where you're like, three hours, and you just learn about, like, one abandoned theme park or, like, one type of investigating. And then I'm like, wow, I'm an expert, so maybe I'll watch that.

[Emma]

Well, thanks, Christine. What are you doing for the rest of the day? Week?

[Christine]

The day. What time is it.

[Emma]

For you? It's the. It's both. It's the afternoon.

[Christine]

I'm celebrating my baby boy and his 10 years of life. Taking him out in the town, little man sniffing some stuff, eating some grass.

[Emma]

You should take them to a little doggy toy store. See, maybe if there's, like, a birthday bone.

[Christine]

Now that sounds interesting.

[Emma]

Have you been to those doggy bakeries? They've always got some weird stuff.

[Christine]

Oh, yes. There' one right by the potter's field downtown Cincinnati.

[Emma]

Wow, There.

[Christine]

There is one in that area. It's funny, the. I love that. I'm such a sucker for that.

[Emma]

Me too.

[Christine]

I'm like, he deserves a special little birthday treat with his name on it.

[Emma]

I just told Hank. I was like, you gotta stop reminding. You gotta remind me to stop buying your treats. Because he's. He. He didn't agree with that, but, you know, he's.

[Christine]

You're wrong. That's why. And also, when is his birthday? Do I know this? Do we know this?

[Emma]

May 22nd.

[Christine]

May 22nd.

[Emma]

He's a boy. Jeff. Gemini. Which.

[Christine]

Oh, God, anime Gemini, too.

[Emma]

I know an Ma Gemini. Yeah.

[Christine]

So he's a handful.

[Emma]

Pretty much the biggest devil you can find, so.

[Christine]

Well, Geo's a Scorpio if you'll recall. So they are evenly matched. I was gonna say, I think they finally found their match.

[Emma]

All right, well, happy B Day, Gio.

[Christine]

I know my handsome boy is napping. Yeah, he's gonna get lots of treats. And he says hi to Hank and he says, just wait for May 22nd. You're gonna get so many treats.

[Emma]

Well, tell little baby G I say I'll know what it means.

[Christine]

He'll know what it means. I will. Thank you everybody for listening. If you want to check out our Patreon, we do bonus episodes every week alongside as a supplement to our episodes and it's like an intermission yappy hour type thing. So you can check that out on your podcast feed or on our Patreon. We also do all sorts of fun like little bits and stuff on Patreon too. So if you want to check that out, go to patreon.com atwwdpodclass podcast and you can follow our socials and check us out anywhere and everywhere. And that's why we drink, drink.