B (1:56)

Yeah. OCD is a serious and highly misunderstood condition that causes people to get stuck in a cycle of stressful, unwanted thoughts and repetitive physical behaviors. And, you know, it can be scary and disturbing or make you feel completely outta character, and it can be really debilitating. But because there are so many misconceptions, a lot of people don't know that they have it. They feel shame about their symptoms and they even suffer in silence. But with no cd, help is on the way. Dear.

A (2:21)

Not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. OCD is highly treatable, though, with a specialized type of therapy called erp, or exposure and response Prevention. That's what I've done, and it has worked wonders. It's known to be the most highly effective treatment for ocd. And NOCD knows that with nocd, you.

B (2:40)

Can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in OCD and NOCD therapists are highly trained, so they really understand OCD and won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about. And NOCD therapy is covered by insurance for over 100, 155 million Americans.

A (2:53)

Go to nocd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's nocd.com to schedule a free call and learn more. Me, me, me, me.

B (3:12)

How's your instrument? Tune it. Tune it.

A (3:14)

It is still deeply affected, afflicted by a sinus infection. But you know what? Otherwise it's not like the cute thing where, like on Friends where my voice sounds better when I'm sick. It just sounds more nasally and I blow my nose a lot and it's really unfortunate. So I do apologize. I was hoping by now mid December ish that it'd be healed, but I guess I'm just in for perpetual illness.

B (3:40)

I. I don't envy you. But I also, I have evaded getting a cold so many times already that my day is coming. And like, that's what happened.

A (3:51)

It took me like two, I think. I haven't. Someone listening is like, you were sick three months ago. Probably true, but it feels like I haven't been sick in so long and this one just like came back to kick my ass. You know, I.

B (4:01)

The worst colds are when you haven't had a cold in a while and it's like all building up. It's like vengeance.

A (4:06)

And it's like, while we're here, why don't I add a couple other viruses?

B (4:09)

Yeah, I feel like I accidentally just conjured it by saying, oh, I'm due. But I. I just went To Seattle for Thanksgiving. I have. There was a few people there.

A (4:20)

Sick. Big group.

B (4:22)

It almost. It almost got me there, but I dodged her.

A (4:24)

It almost got me.

B (4:26)

There have been a few times where someone's like, oh, by the way, I. I'm sick. And I found. I just found out. Whoops. And then I'm like. So I'm. I'm really. I'm just gonna stay inside.

A (4:35)

Yeah, I think that's probably the best situation for everybody and for, like, it's hibernation season, you know, Like.

B (4:43)

Couldn't sound more like an introvert. I know.

A (4:46)

It's really nice. It feels so good. I don't. I haven't left the house. I have, like, a little app where I track, like, daily, like, just to, like, see, like, moods and, like, what I did today and, like, did I brush my teeth and all these other things that helps with ADHD and stuff. And for the last, like, four days, I've had to check, not left the house. Like, this is getting. It's getting to be a lot.

B (5:06)

Is that, like, a reward or a bad thing?

A (5:09)

No, I mean, it's not anything. It's just like, oh, I'm just gonna mark it to, like, later. See. But I've noticed it doesn't really affect my mood as much as I thought it would. Like, my mood still kind of. It's not dependent on whether I leave, I think, in the winter, I think when it's nice out, I start to feel kind of weird if I don't leave the house. But when it's cold, that man.

B (5:27)

But that's. I mean, I. I understand totally. Because, well, when it comes to the winter, during the summer, I. I love being inside. So, like.

A (5:37)

Yeah, it's the best.

B (5:38)

It really doesn't affect me all that much in the winter. I think I enjoy it more because then nobody judges me for not leaving.

A (5:45)

Yeah, exactly. It feels like, oh, we're hibernating. That's part of the whole thing. Yeah. I mean, you know, you read about, like, hygge or whatever in. In, like, Sweden, you know, your face. Okay. In, like, Denmark and Sweden, you know, you read about.

B (5:58)

You know.

A (6:00)

Okay. It's called hygge. H, Y, G, G, E. You may have seen that word around. It's like this concept of, like. It's like this Nordic concept of, like, cozy. Like, they get rough winters. But, like, Denmark is, I think, the happiest. It's either. I think Denmark's the happiest country in the world. And so they've done studies, like, how on earth do these people, how are they so happy? And then they don't get sunlight and they don't leave the house. And it's because they have this concept of like, oh, we all just like bundle up indoors. The floors are heated. Like every house has heated floors. Everything is like built for you to be comfortable.

B (6:34)

The system is rigged for them.

A (6:36)

Exactly. And like, you have like these built in communal events and family things so you're not like, alone, you know. And so it's all kind of structured in this community way, which I think is lovely. And like, I don't have that here. I'm living in a mess and it's chaotic and I'm usually by myself. But, you know, it's a really great concept to strive for.

B (6:55)

I love that. I mean, I would love to practice that because I'm already inside.

A (7:00)

And now it's like, it's like cozy cabin, cozy type. You know, it's like that vibe and it's. It's really lovely and it's like kind of. It's universal there. Like, it's not a class thing. It's not like, oh, certain families have it, certain people don't. It's just kind of the norm. And I thought that was really, really charming.

B (7:18)

I love that. I. Thank you. I have seen that word and I've. One, never knew how to pronounce it and two, never knew what it was.

A (7:23)

It's a weird one. It's a weird one.

B (7:26)

Yeah. You just gave me a rabbit hole. Thank you so much.

A (7:29)

Oh, speaking of rabbit holes, can I tell you why I drink this week?

B (7:32)

That it would be weird if you didn't on the show.

A (7:35)

Fair enough. So I've been. I've like stumbled upon this before. I mentioned this. Right. Recorded as something I want to talk about more in the interim. What do we call it? The intermission. But it's the idea of the. The Gate program and how, okay, so gifted and talented programs and how they are, like, I'm sure you've seen this on like, Tick Tock and stuff of like, how they were related to potentially the theory, the. The, what do you call it, Conspiracy theory is that it's connected in some way to the CIA and their, like, study of psychic abilities and remote viewing and all that and different altered states of consciousness. And so I went down this rabbit hole on Tick Tock of people saying, like, remember you'd get called in for a hearing test and they would put these big, like, headphones on you and they'd be like, different levels of Frequency and sounds. And this guy would be giving you instructions, and then they would only pull certain kids, and then you'd like. There were so many creepy things. Like, oh, there was a little pink drink they had you drink beforehand. And I'm like, what the. And I went through this rabbit hole of like, oh, I remember stuff. And I remember my mom pulling me out of it because she was like, I'm not comfortable with this. And she asked too many questions. And they were like, you're no longer part of the program.

B (8:50)

You're not eligible.

A (8:52)

You're no longer eligible.

B (8:53)

No, you know, I'm not on that side of TikTok, but I fully could get invested today.

A (8:59)

Like, it's fascinating.

B (9:01)

I thought you were going to go a different route. Well, first of all, I didn't know what the GATE program was until you just said gifted and talented.

A (9:07)

I think GATE is the CIA one. I think I'm getting them.

B (9:10)

Okay.

A (9:11)

Like, I think gay is CIA, and then G, like, gifted and talented is the, like, actual. But they're, like, weirdly close by a letter, you know, that's part of the conspiracy.

B (9:21)

I. I thought you were gonna. The route I'm on where anytime I hear gifted and talented on my tech talk, it's because someone's talking about how they were actually just nerd.

A (9:31)

Yeah. We're all so mentally ill and neurodivergent.

B (9:34)

It's like they needed a place to put us until everyone caught up. Or until we caught.

A (9:39)

Yeah, they're probably. Those probably also end up going hand in hand. I was gonna say there's two rabbit holes.

B (9:45)

Yeah, there's an overlap there. Well, then you say, like, a lot of neurodivergent kids are involved in the Telepathy tapes or something.

A (9:51)

Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah.

B (9:52)

So, like, maybe there is, like, go.

A (9:53)

Into the gifted program spectrum. Yeah.

B (9:55)

Then you get recruited. There's something about the Telepathy tapes I've. I've obviously never experienced anything about. I don't know what that's about, but I've heard a million people tell me things so incredible.

A (10:04)

Oh, good. It's so good. And so, I mean, it, like, blows your whole world view wide open. So as.

B (10:10)

As you've excellent other rabbit hole to put me down. Thank you so much.

A (10:15)

Yeah, no, that one's fun. I'm glad that you haven't, like, gone down it yet, because I feel like we have a lot to discuss once you do.

B (10:20)

You're totally right. Why the were they making us go sit in trucks and listen really hard?

A (10:23)

Okay. And it Was always like a truck, right?

B (10:25)

It was always like, why was it.

A (10:27)

Truck away from school? Like it was always in a truck and it was always like, or a trailer or whatever. And it would be like random, like some kids would get called out randomly and then like you never got, I mean, as far as I know, never got results or like.

B (10:39)

Yeah, I never got results.

A (10:40)

So weird.

B (10:41)

I guess there was. I. I've. And I'm sure there's some excuse there. I know the excuse. The truth maybe, but like excuse.

A (10:48)

They have some excuse they're going to tell us.

B (10:50)

Yeah, but no, I, I remember it happening like randomly, one year only, and then never hearing. I guess like to evade embarrassment, maybe they wouldn't tell you there were good or bad results unless they really need to talk to you or something.

A (11:03)

But like, yes.

B (11:04)

I don't know.

A (11:05)

Like, we don't want to embarrass you, but you can't hear out of your left ear.

B (11:08)

Yeah. Also like, did we need a test for that? I'm pretty sure we would know they do that.

A (11:12)

I do know they do hearing tests. Or at least a lot of places states do hearing tests. And so I'm like, I get it. And I have gone to when I, you know, famously punctured my own eardrum. I did go to the ear doctor and they did a hearing test and it was in a weird closet and they did put these giant 80s headphones on me. So part of me is like, okay, to be fair, like, the real hearing test I got was pretty similar, but it's all the other stuff, like how they were kind of random and sporadic and then also always in a trailer and then always, like not always, but a lot of people had to drink this weird pink fluoride drink, which is like, what the is that about? Like if my daughter came home and was like, they made me drink this gross thing and like, like there's robots.

B (11:53)

In your body now.

A (11:54)

Yeah, like, I'm calling the police. What the. You know they can't make you drink a gross pink mystery cocktail. I don't know, it's just like, what's going on? And then they would like have us lay down. And some people talk about like, oh, and they would never let you bring home your paperwork. And a couple people on Tick Tock have found like their old folders that they like somehow had kept and like they would go through and there are some weird ass worksheets in there, like decode Russian letters. And it was like practicing like decoding all these random symbols.

B (12:25)

Lead Christine. That's Incredible.

A (12:27)

And then a lot of the paperwork, too, is. And they have, like, the originals from the 90s or early 2000s, and it'll be, like, all about, like. They were apparently obsessed with whales. And everyone's like, oh, yeah, I remember learning so much about whales. And then somebody said, well, think about it. They communicate with, like, frequency, like, sound. Yeah. And it's like, you know, maybe there's something to it. I don't know. Listen. It's a great rabbit hole.

B (12:49)

Oh.

A (12:50)

Oh, my God. And then Mall World. Have you heard of Mall World? I'm really losing it. This is why I should probably leave the house. Everyone's like, okay, we're starting to worry. But really, it's fascinating. This woman on TikTok made a post called Mall World, and she's like, I decided to map out where I dream every night. Like, I go to this place that I call Mall World. I'm going to map it out. It's so ridiculous. And everyone in the comment. Not everyone, but a lot of people in the comments are like, that's where I go when I dream. And I shit you not. I'm looking at this going, holy fuck, the parking garage is right there. I know exactly where that parking garage is.

B (13:22)

What the fuck?

A (13:23)

I know. And now I'm like, in this extra rabbit hole of, like. What is this weird communal consciousness of, like, where we go to? Dre, does mall rules have anything to.

B (13:31)

Do with a mall? Is it a mall? Is that what you're talking about?

A (13:32)

Yeah. Well, there's a mall, and then it has all these other things attached to it. So there's like, a water park where I've been to. Although in my dream, it was Jason Derulo's water park, and there's a water park.

B (13:41)

And you know what? In Jason Derulo's dream, too. It's his water park.

A (13:45)

No, in that dream, it's my water park. His dream is my water park. But it's like, oh, there are all these parking garages, and then there are the bathrooms where there are, like, thousands of stalls and they're all broken. And it's like, yeah, we've all been there. Just weird stuff where it's like. It's probably some universal consciousness, like, human dream. It's probably just how our brains work or whatever. Like, the same as we see the hat. You know, so many people see things like the hat man or whatever. Maybe it's something to do with that. But I wonder if. Fascinating.

B (14:14)

I wonder if, like, you have to have, like, some. I'm about to sound like a wild person because I'm trying to rationalize dreams. But maybe you have to have like some sort of clearance to Access Mall World because I don't have that clearance. I have nothing you said I've ever dreamt. But I have worlds that I go to. And maybe that's like on the other side of town.

A (14:32)

Maybe there are other people who do like, who go to that one, you.

B (14:35)

Know, Maybe like it's like a very like segregated space where it's like all the mall rats go here and then all the people that go to. I don't know.

A (14:44)

There's also an airport though, attached to it.

B (14:48)

The, the. That means canonically people do fly to other locations.

A (14:54)

Well, the thing is, every time I'm in the airport, which I've had the same dream for like three nights in a row. And it's like a stress dream. I think I'm always like running late or missing my flight or can't find my suitcase. So it's never like I leave the airport. It's like I'm just trapped there. And so a lot of the dreams that people talk about are like, oh, I'm here, but I'm always stuck, or I can't find the exit, or it's so big that I never make it to the car or whatever. And then one of the theories, Speaking of sounding absolutely nutty, here I go. One of the theories is like, well, maybe this is just like a holding place so that we don't like to keep us, well, like little lab rats, like keep us safe so we're not like wandering off into consciousness, like into dangerous territory.

B (15:30)

That doesn't sound crazy to me. My guess was going to be, oh, well, then that just proves that things are a simulation and you just hit.

A (15:34)

Like the corner that's where we all go. Yeah, exactly. It's fascinating. And when she, she was like, I just posted Mall World as kind of a joke to be like, oh, look at this crazy place I've I dream about. And everyone was like, I've been there. And I had this freak out moment where I was like, oh no. But sometimes I dream like I'm in a parking garage and then I look and I'm like, oh my God, it's right there. I see. Exactly. And that's where the entrance is. It's so weird. Anyway, it's a rabbit hole again. But that's also blowing my mind because.

B (15:59)

Now I'm like, well, maybe, maybe if there are corners of the game where like you can't get farther Than which would then mean I. I thought I was on another side of town, but there is no other side of town. Maybe it's like an elevator and I'm downstairs.

A (16:11)

Oh, creepy. Yep. Yep.

B (16:14)

Interesting. Interesting.

A (16:15)

Yeah. During the intermission today, slash yappy hour, we should. I'll pull up the map. The Antron map.

B (16:21)

Yeah.

A (16:21)

See if there are any crossover.

B (16:23)

You know, I would love that. Wow. Remember when you said we should do this for intermission? And now we've.

A (16:26)

I know. And then I just couldn't help myself immediately. No, that's zero.

B (16:30)

That's fascinating. That's fascinating.

A (16:33)

Anyway, why do you drink?

B (16:36)

I drink because my tea doesn't have any lavender syrup in it. And I ordered it that way, so I'm travesty now. It just tastes like, I don't know, just plain raw tea leaf water. Yeah. Just dirt kinda. Yeah. I do have lavender in the fridge, but I'm like, do I really want to get up? So that's the. That's the one thing. Oh. The real reason I drink this week is because this weekend I went to go see the. The play. I don't know if you've heard of. I don't. I think it's. I think it's new. It's called. It's Paranormal Activity. Based on the movie. But it's a play version. No. And I didn't even know about it until I saw like, people posting that. They went there on Instagram and I was like, I've got time this weekend. So I, Yeah. Popped on over. I have never. That was such a good play. If it comes to your town for some reason, you have to go.

A (17:35)

It's just called Paranormal Activity.

B (17:37)

It's like. Yeah.

A (17:39)

Oh, hell yeah.

B (17:40)

I haven't seen the movie in a long time, but I think it's one.

A (17:44)

Of the only ones I've ever seen. Like one of the only horror films I've actually watched in my adult years.

B (17:50)

It's inspired by. It's not like. Like a true. From the movie. It's like just like. Oh, you get to watch Paranormal Activity happen live. Basically.

A (17:58)

How fun is that?

B (18:00)

It was. And actually, I'm not kidding. So scary. Like, I've never been.

A (18:05)

That's what I was gonna ask.

B (18:06)

I've never been in a theater.

A (18:08)

It was like.

B (18:09)

It was like watching a movie because. And everyone had been given permission to react wildly because everyone in the audience.

A (18:15)

Was like, don't go in there. Oh my God, wait. I'm so excited. I want to see it.

B (18:20)

It was super scary. There's One scene. And in particular I'm not gonna spoil anything for anyone but that was. I was watching it and I was like, oh, this is like I was jumping every now and then.

A (18:30)

Did you go alone?

B (18:31)

Yeah, I did because I. Oh my God. I just went randomly and also I of like a theater specific, I like to sit in one spot specifically.

A (18:38)

So I was like, okay, you have your own seat.

B (18:40)

Well, there was only one seat left in that area. And I was like, it's meant to be. So yeah, I popped on over and anyway I was sitting there and I was like, I can't imagine this really going to be scary. Like, but people are saying it's really good. So I'm just going to enjoy the show. And within like five minutes I literally my body did like the jump thing where I was like holy.

A (18:57)

Oh my God.

B (18:58)

And then because it's theater and they have like literal sound and lights everything, they were like making the sounds like just like scream at you and like the lights would freak like you, you. Everyone just walked out like with their adrenaline spiked for sure.

A (19:10)

Oh my God, how fun.

B (19:12)

And there was. I'll tell you off camera but. Or unless you're gonna go see it, I don't want to spoil it for you either. But there was, there was one scene that if you ever do see it, we have to talk about it because it was for sure. So like in that moment I literally grabbed the person next to me. I was like, holy. I was like, that's so scary. It like did such a good job with it.

A (19:32)

Oh my God. Yeah, I' our theater, we're probably going to get it late. Like I feel like la, if LA has now we'll probably get it like in a year. But when it comes out I'm for sure going to see it because we have a pretty big theater scene here but we usually get things a little.

B (19:45)

Later and it was like a four person show. So like it was very. Because the, the cool thing about it too set wise is that it. I've never seen a, a play where it, the stage was two floors and so you could see it was as if someone cut like a, a Barbie drinking house in half.

A (20:03)

And yeah, you can see the top.

B (20:04)

Floor and the bottom floor at the same time. So while they're downstairs things are happening upstairs and oh my God, it was so good. So I drink because I, I treated myself to that last minute and it was like super worth it. So.

A (20:15)

Ah, I want to go see that. Yeah, that's honestly every time I go see a good Play. Which is, like, most plays I go see, I usually end up being good. But whenever I go see a play, I'm like, damn, I gotta see more plays. And then I never commit to that. But I want to actually make that.

B (20:28)

A thing, you know, I usually am strictly musicals. I really. I was just explaining this yesterday, where if I am invited to a play, I will ask first what it's about before I say yes. But if it's a musical, I usually never ask a single question.

A (20:40)

Yeah. You're like, I'm in. Yeah.

B (20:42)

I'm hesitant about plays, but this one was for sure.

A (20:44)

For those interested, Paranormal Activity is currently in Chicago, L.A.D.C. and San Francisco. So short.

B (20:53)

Short run.

A (20:54)

Yeah. Seriously. I mean, hopefully that means it'll get more. More play.

B (20:59)

Yeah, it will. There's no. With the. And my reaction was like, a matinee. Like, a random.

A (21:05)

Yeah.

B (21:06)

Like, I can't imagine, like, on a Friday night when people are like, yeah.

A (21:09)

Have a couple cocktails, Go on a date.

B (21:11)

Oh, it was, gosh, Like, I was grabbing strangers. And I don't. I would not usually do that. I'm not, so.

A (21:19)

But, yeah, I would. I would hope not.

B (21:20)

You could hear the couple next to me going, like, oh, like, what are you gonna do? It was very good. It was very good.

A (21:27)

I want to see that. Because that mov. Scared the. Out of me, like, 15 years ago or whenever it came out.

B (21:32)

It was a very good reason to drink, so.

A (21:35)

Wow. I love it. Yeah. Good one. Good one.

B (21:39)

That's why I drink. What. What's going on? What's going on? What's. What's. What happens next? I tell a story.

A (21:44)

I think it's, you know, I must go back to the drawing board and see. And see what the blueprints say. But I think next, you tell me a tale.

B (21:52)

Okay. So if you were to go to my mom's house, it would look like she lived in a magical wizarding castle. Because every single frame on her wall happens to move. Wow. It's just a nice little slideshow of all these pictures. Just honestly, of just me. Because when you're the only child, there's really no competition. But this is possible because of her aura. Frames. Loves a picture. But she doesn't want to, like, have to switch them out in between frames and stuff.

A (22:22)

And make it bored easy. You know, it really is the best gift. Like, it's because it's the easiest gift. Right? It's so easy, and it's so thoughtful. Like, it's impossible to find something that's, like, easy to give to so many different people. And like also just really kind and thoughtful. And you can preload photos on it before you gift it, which is like so cool because then they open it and there are already photos of m just like rolling around in there.

B (22:47)

Only if you're so lucky. You just download the Aura app and connect to WI fi and you preload photos before it even ships. So you can keep adding from anywhere, anytime.

A (22:56)

They also include a gift box which is great. So you know what talk about easy. For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get 35 off or as best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code ATWWD at checkout.

B (23:10)

That's a U R A frames.com promo code ATWWD. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays and support the show by mentioning us at checkout.

A (23:22)

Terms and conditions apply.

B (23:25)

Hang on, let me do a little stir of my lavender in case this does anything for anyone. Makes me thirsty, which is a nice reminder to drink some water.

A (23:39)

We haven't done that in a while.

B (23:40)

Little ratties. I'm very jealous of you that you. Well, I know you're going to say I shouldn't be, but I'm very jealous of you that you have a dog that you like, has to get groomed because then you get like a before and after moment. Like you get to do fashion show at lunch with him.

A (23:53)

Oh yeah. Well the only reason, like I don't. It's a pain in the ass and I'm usually really bad at keeping up with it but if I don't, he gets really itchy skin. Like he just gets itchy and matted and it's like ends up having to be. But yeah, don't be jealous. It's a lot, it's.

B (24:10)

It's kind of a pain, I would imagine. It's like money wise it's not fun.

A (24:15)

Like I do like cheap either.

B (24:16)

I like that I save money because he.

A (24:18)

Yeah, it's pretty expensive if I'll be honest. I mean and like we, you know, I'm happy to support local groomers, all that of course. And it really does save a lot of trouble with like his, his skin and stuff. But.

B (24:30)

Well, I'm also jealous of you because your dog doesn't shed and everywhere I go that's riddled with hair now and it's the best tri color. So no clothes are safe. No clothes are safe.

A (24:39)

Yeah. That's where you should be jealous, because that part is a game changer that I didn't even realize till I was a little older. And I went, oh, yeah, I've just.

B (24:47)

Had to learn to live in, like, in disgust. Yeah. You know, Genius marketing. I don't even know about marketing. Just genius business idea. At our dog park, a portable groomer always parks out front.

A (25:00)

Oh, smart, smart.

B (25:02)

And you can always tell when someone has used the groomer because all of a sudden, their dog comes in a little too clean, and I'm like, you're.

A (25:08)

Like, straight to the mud.

B (25:10)

Yeah. I was like, you should have done this on your way out. But whatever. Okay, I. I do have a story for you. I'm not just trying to hold off on that. Okay. It's a story from Chicago.

A (25:23)

Chicago.

B (25:25)

And, oh, my God, I think I heard my very first true Minnesota accent recently. And by recently, I mean yesterday, because I've heard people that, like, have a little twang of it. But I met someone who was like. I think was Minnesota personified Westerner. I didn't. I didn't know what the hell was going on. He was talking to me, and I was like, where are you?

A (25:45)

What are you saying, buddy?

B (25:46)

I was like, what is go. I. I honestly, I thought. I'm so sorry. I thought he was like. Like. I thought English, like, was maybe his second language because he. It was such a different accent than what I'd ever heard. I was like, you never heard it before?

A (25:58)

Like, a Minnesota accent?

B (26:00)

Not that deep. It was like. And I. I'm wondering if it was maybe, like, mixed with, like, a. Like, a different accent. I don't know what it was. But then he was like, oh, I'm born and raised from Minnesota.

A (26:08)

And I. Intense. Where did you meet this person? At the dog park. I was like, oh, okay.

B (26:15)

Our dogs love each other. And him and I were finally making small talk. But I've always heard him talking, like, with another group of people. And I was like, where's he from? And then I just would never think about it. And then. But it was like, usually I could pick those things out. And, like, I'm. I'm from the States. I can usually guess where people are from. But the way that he spoke, I was like, this guy is from a whole other world. I can't wait to learn about him when we eventually bump into each other.

A (26:41)

And then I have a lot of questions.

B (26:43)

His friends left, my friends left, and it was just the two of us. I was like, okay, time to get it going. I can't wait to hear, like, you know, if. What he's been up to in his life. And he was like, beer. He was like, cheese. I'm from Minnesota and this is the first place I've ever gone.

A (26:56)

Ever gone. Does he live here?

B (26:58)

He like, is he born and raised in Minnesota and recently moved here?

A (27:01)

And I was like, oh, what a big jump, man.

B (27:04)

So anyway, I have to relearn accents. I gotta. I gotta. I don't know.

A (27:07)

Seriously, you've been in that bubble too long.

B (27:09)

It blew my mind. I was like, I. I was. It was refreshing to be like, oh, wow. I've never really officially heard this, I guess. Anyway, Minnesota Shout Out. Your accent is cool and crazy. And I thought for sure I knew what was going on over there, but I don't.

A (27:24)

And m. Thought it was a foreign language for a minute.

B (27:26)

I was like, I couldn't have. I couldn't place the. The. Like, it could have been. Might as well have been a. Just a different city in the U.S. i didn't. I couldn't have guessed the country either, but I was like, he's certainly not from here. Like, fascinating. La.

A (27:37)

Yeah.

B (27:39)

But, yeah. Blew my mind. I was like, like, wow. I'm humbled. I guess I don't know as much as I thought I did about accents.

A (27:43)

Interesting, interesting.

B (27:44)

So shout out to Minnesota, man. Already forgot your name, so sorry.

A (27:48)

Oh, wow, you were that. You were that blown away.

B (27:50)

I do know his dog's name, so shout out to her.

A (27:53)

That's. That's. Yeah. Okay.

B (27:56)

This is from Chicago, not Minnesota. Don't know why. Anyway, this is the Hull House.

A (28:02)

The Hull House. That sounds familiar, but I think maybe.

B (28:05)

Thank you. I thought it sounded familiar too.

A (28:08)

It feels like something I would know about, but then, like, can't put my finger on what.

B (28:12)

You know, I honestly should have done some recon and seen if I covered it in one of our books, because this does sound so familiar, but I'm wondering if I just saw it on so many listicles and kept putting it off.

A (28:24)

Right. And it also sounds like Hill House.

B (28:27)

Yeah.

A (28:28)

Yeah.

B (28:29)

But I did look it up, by the way. Fun fact again, if you did not know, we have an episodes tab on our website where you can search any topic and see if we've covered it.

A (28:37)

And we search it regularly to make.

B (28:39)

Sure that's what happened last night for me. Have not covered it before on the podcast. So here we go.

A (28:46)

Okay.

B (28:48)

This is Chicago in 1856. The Hull House was built, although it was called the Hull Mansion at the time. So Be respectful about that. Yeah, seriously.

A (28:57)

What the fuck?

B (28:59)

Hall Manager. Thank you for playing.

A (29:02)

I mean, like, why would you Down. I mean, not downvote. What am I doing? Like, on Reddit. Why would you, like, demote them from. I guess it's because, like, the definition of a mansion changes. I don't know. Now we have, like, McMansions. I don't know.

B (29:14)

I guess so. Although I think I've told you this before. Do you know the difference between a mansion and a house?

A (29:19)

I mean, it's like the square footage, Right.

B (29:21)

It has to be 5,000 square feet and five bedrooms.

A (29:25)

Okay, so that's a mansion. Yeah. So maybe back then it was just different.

B (29:29)

Yeah.

A (29:29)

Qualifications.

B (29:30)

Well, there is an answer to why it is changed from mansion to house.

A (29:33)

Oh, okay.

B (29:34)

But I love that you were so ready to.

A (29:36)

Wow. I got. I don't know why. I mean, who cares? But I was like, although I feel like Hill House, I can. Or Hall House, I can see why. Like, it has that.

B (29:43)

Yeah, I would too. For the alliteration, I'd be like. I think alliteration.

A (29:47)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (29:48)

What would your name. What would your house's name be? If you're going with Schiffer or Lamp Blaze's last name.

A (29:53)

We call. We call. Well, I used to say, you know, like, Lemp Mansion. I would call it Lamp Mansion.

B (30:00)

I think that's hysterical. You should bring that.

A (30:01)

But, like, nobody gets it. So then it sounds like I'm calling my house Geo.

B (30:05)

Come here.

A (30:07)

Okay, you want to show everybody?

B (30:09)

Oh, he's gonna look so handsome. Where's my Mimis?

A (30:15)

Oh, you smell good.

B (30:18)

Beautiful. Handsome. Oh, wow. Oh, and you can.

A (30:25)

There we go.

B (30:25)

You can see, like, how fluffy he is.

A (30:27)

Like, he smells so good, which is. Ooh. Wow, you are extra floofy today.

B (30:32)

Oh, I'm so jealous of your hand. I'm so jealous.

A (30:35)

Oh, yes.

B (30:36)

Oh, is he gonna look his weenie? Yep.

A (30:38)

Okay. Anyway, thanks for showing up.

B (30:41)

He said it's not clean enough.

A (30:44)

Back to my ways. I'm not. Classy gent. Okay, bye. He just wanted to come in and show me. I'm so jealous of you leaving again. Oh, wow, his tail. Let me see if you can see it.

B (30:54)

Show us the. Oh, my gosh. It's like someone's wig went missing.

A (30:58)

It literally looks like somebody just cut straight bangs, like, on a wig, all, like, a bowl cut.

B (31:05)

That's very funny.

A (31:06)

Sorry you saw, like, trash and, like, my medicine in the background, but.

B (31:09)

Oh, well, no, no one was looking at that. We were looking at his. Karen Bob. Of a haircut.

A (31:14)

That's what it is. It's like a Karen cut. Yeah. On his tail, which is absurd.

B (31:19)

There has been a discourse on Tick Tock about renaming it the Ass Bob.

A (31:24)

And so that's good too. Yeah.

B (31:26)

I think Gio just has a Ass Bob on his.

A (31:28)

I mean, honestly, I think he would agree with that. Yeah.

B (31:30)

Thank you for showing us. I really needed that. That was wonderful.

A (31:33)

Oh, I did too. That kind of warmed my heart a little bit because he's been real gnarly lately. And he's been late for his haircut.

B (31:39)

So precious. And he does smell good. That's great.

A (31:41)

He smells good. Which is a rarity.

B (31:43)

You know, I. I literally. I don't know. I don't know how people feel about this. I literally spray a little spritz of cologne on Hank because I'm like, it's just gotta be better.

A (31:52)

What if you. What if we got canceled because you spritzed cologne on your dog? I never thought we'd never have seen that coming. That would have been the most outrageous.

B (32:01)

Well, I just. Everyone's got an opinion on what you should and should do with your dog. But, I mean, easy to find.

A (32:05)

I think that one is pretty okay. Unless. I don't know.

B (32:07)

I'm still new to this. I'm scared all the time. But no, I. He smells like Jay Collister, which, by the way, is a ret. Tired. A defunct smell these days. So he actually is.

A (32:19)

You would find, like, the most, like, basic, but also hard to get, like, exclusive situation.

B (32:25)

I tried to get more because it was my signature scent in high school and college.

A (32:29)

Oh, my God.

B (32:29)

And I still love it. I don't care. It smells great. And so I tried to look it up, but now it's literally as expensive as an expensive type of cologne.

A (32:36)

Right. So is it, like, on ebay and.

B (32:38)

Or you can only get it on ebay for, like, $200.

A (32:41)

God.

B (32:43)

So I'm, like, basically going through the last bottle from, like, grad school at this point, and I'm just, like, spraying it on my dog.

A (32:48)

You and Hank.

B (32:49)

He smells like old money now. Yeah.

A (32:51)

Oh, wow. That old mall money.

B (32:55)

Sir, in your mall world, can you actually pick me up some Jake Alister? Because I've been. I mean, honestly.

A (32:59)

I'll check. Yeah. I mean, I can usually never make it, like, to one side of the mall from the other. That's usually part of the whole situation. But once I do.

B (33:08)

Thank you. I got a feeling the holsters where the back rooms to Mall World are.

A (33:12)

Oh, my God, honestly. Well, you know how dark it is in there. Like, that's probably part of the whole deal. Yeah, it's just like a. Like the back rooms for sure.

B (33:21)

Anyway, here we go. So. Oh, you were saying? The Lamp Mansion. I do think you should bring that back.

A (33:27)

Oh. So I thought that was funny. But then it's sort of like if people don't know what that is and they see our WI fi, they're like, what the. You know, because it's like, it's not a mansion. I don't live in a mansion by any stretch of the word. So it's like. It feels like a little bit like I have to explain it, and then that's silly.

B (33:42)

Well, you know what we call ours? No.

A (33:45)

Yeah. What is it again?

B (33:46)

The Schultz fourth Manor. And we don't live in a manner.

A (33:49)

But manor sounds like you. You. It's like a fun. Like, it's a. It's a cute, quirky word. Whereas, like, mansion feels like holier than that or something. You would actually write in, like, a description of a Zillow house or something if it were. You know what I mean? Like, it feels.

B (34:05)

I guess.

A (34:06)

But the.

B (34:06)

The. The definition of a manor is like the. The house. The main house people live in on an estate next to many other houses they also own.

A (34:13)

But manor feels like, oh, we're like, kind of just like being silly. Like, we're not. We're being. We're being, like, goofy about it. Goofy about it in, like, a fun way. I feel like manor has more, like, playful tone to it. Mansion just feels like, why the. You don't live in a mansion?

B (34:28)

Sure. I would have just done Shultz fourth cottage, but we already agreed to manor like, three years ago.

A (34:33)

So now I do like manor.

B (34:34)

Really stupid because.

A (34:35)

See, that. That's what you guys got. Did that. And I thought that was really the way to go. I was like, that's clever and fun. But our name doesn't quite like lamp she for lamp. It just doesn't work. I don't know. So if anyone has any ideas, let me know right now. We call it Gio's house with it. But we. We spell it H A U S because it's like the German spelling. So it's beautiful.

B (34:56)

I love that.

A (34:56)

And that. That pretty much fits the bill, you know, especially with that Bob that ass Bobby's got going now. He, like, really runs the manor, if you know what I mean.

B (35:04)

He really does. Yeah. No, I understand. Well, so when it first came out, it was the whole mansion in 1856 in Chicago. And it was built for Charles hall because every single building has to have your name involved in it. As I say with. Inside the Scholsworth Manor.

A (35:20)

Yeah, right. Like, how ridiculous.

B (35:23)

Well, while he was here, he was only here for, I guess, like a few years. And then they ended up and moving away or he died or something like that. But they were here for a very short amount of time. Time. While they did live here, his wife died in the house. So that's ghost number one. And when Charles eventually died, the house was then handed over to his niece who used it as tenement housing for the wave of immigrants coming through at the time.

A (35:49)

Okay.

B (35:49)

And they were immigrants of all sorts, Minnesota, everything.

A (35:54)

Yes, I was about to say it. You stole the words out of my mouth.

B (35:59)

But it was. It was a lot of immigrants. And in this neighborhood, it was. It happened to be particularly poverty stricken immigrants. And so they needed a lot of resources that they just didn't have at the time. And it was. I think I saw one source say that it was like seven families per unit were living together.

A (36:17)

Oh, my Lord.

B (36:18)

It was just super overcrowded. And also there was a lot of dangerous working conditions for them. And anyway, it was not a good time. They were. They were coming here for a better life, but the better life hadn't maybe happened yet, so. And then another source said that in between it becoming the Hull Mansion and then being tenement housing, there was talk that maybe it was also a nursing home for a period of time, which if that's the case, then that's also a lot more deaths that.

A (36:44)

Yeah, yeah.

B (36:45)

For some reason aren't close to the veil, aren't recorded. So eventually. Okay, so his niece turns into tenement housing and later on ends up donating it or selling it to a woman named Jane Addams. So this building is also often called the Jane Addams Hull House. Oh, okay. So it was the Halls, then it became 10 housing. And the niece who was in charge of that handed it off to James Jane Adams. Let me tell you about Jane Addams. We fucking love her.

A (37:15)

I knew it. I felt it when you said her name.

B (37:17)

And you know why? It's because Jane is like one of the best names in the world.

A (37:20)

It is a great name.

B (37:22)

Every time I see Jane, I think I gotta add that to my, like, name. It's a great name. And also I was in love with Jane Tarzan. It's a. It's a. Jane's a big name over here.

A (37:31)

You have a history.

B (37:31)

Yeah, yeah. We go back and she Knows that or does she?

A (37:37)

That's part of the charm.

B (37:38)

That's the mystery. So Jane Adams, she's a huge social reformer for her time. And I wouldn't even just say for her time. She should be remembered as a massive social reformer. She helped establish the country's juvenile court system. That was one thing she did. She fought for factory labor rights. Especially during this time when there was a lot of. I mean, like, I was reading stories about how the working conditions were so bad, people were just getting maimed and dismembered. And like, we're expected to just go back to work the next day.

A (38:08)

Right. There's nothing to do about it. Right.

B (38:10)

And forget child labor laws. I mean, so kids were working as young as five, I think, at the time anyway. So she established the country's juvenile court system. She fought for factory labor rights. She fought for better sanitation laws in the city. She fought for access to more schools in the city for children. And then I'm just gonna rattle off a couple of her titles. She was a founding member of the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. She was a founding member of the National Child Labor Committee. She was the one of the founding members for the naacp. She was the president of the National Conference of Charities and Corrections. She was an officer in the National American Women's Suffrage Association. She was a leader of the Women's Peace Party. And she was the president of the International Congress of Women and the first woman ever to receive a Nobel Peace Prize.

A (38:55)

Jesus Christ. I mean, you think, like, we. We're living in such a backwards state right now, but like, state of the world. I mean, but like, how far we've come, dude, like, suffer. She's like, okay, let's get started. By trying to get five year olds off the workforce and get the vote, I mean, for half the population. And it's just wild. That's wild. Just to think, like, how much was on this woman's plate.

B (39:21)

I mean, Jesus Christ, she was a busy girl. And also, thank God that she's not here right now because she'd be like, what happened?

A (39:29)

What did I do this for? Yeah, yeah.

B (39:30)

She'd be like, I gotta get back to work. Actually, hang on. Okay. I was wondering if he was gonna tell me. Let's go to the bathroom.

A (39:40)

I don't know why you said. When you said, tell me, I was like, tell you what? Tell you a joke. Did I say tell me about. Yeah, you said, if he's gonna tell me he has to use the bathroom.

B (39:49)

No, because he. I. The Bells on the door.

A (39:51)

Yeah, I know but in my head I was like tell you like about his dream. I don't know. I was like tell you what I.

B (39:56)

I have been saying a lot of. Use your words.

A (39:59)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what. It kind of sounded like his.

B (40:02)

By the way, when he uses his words it sounds like this.

A (40:06)

I love dog words. That's so cute.

B (40:09)

So Jane moves in to the building. I'm going to just say they were friends. There's no information otherwise.

A (40:17)

Love this.

B (40:18)

My heart tells me maybe not just friends.

A (40:22)

Interesting.

B (40:23)

But who's to say her name was Ellen Gates Star who has her own list of insane accolades.

A (40:28)

Right. But like who would also marry Jane? Like which kind of self respecting at that time would marry her? So it's sort of like you could see both ways. Like I could see this being like she's also queer but maybe it's just like she's like there's no hope for me to actually get married.

B (40:40)

Right, right.

A (40:41)

I don't know.

B (40:42)

And it, I did see on a few sources it called Ellen her partner, but I think it probably just meant business partner.

A (40:48)

Right, right.

B (40:49)

And I can just only hope so.

A (40:50)

Yeah. I mean we could hope for sure.

B (40:52)

Two bad at the same damn time. It's Jane and Ellen. That's the only names you gotta remember.

A (40:59)

Cute. So friend with friends with Ellen, friends with us with. Yeah. Friends with Dorothy, friends with Ellen.

B (41:05)

That, that's, that's how I'm going to look at things. But whatever. So they move into this house and as you can tell by their list of accomplishments, they were clearly here to do some good. So they open what they called the Hull House because although it was the Hull Mansion, it was now a settlement house. So I think they just renamed it the Hull House.

A (41:26)

Okay.

B (41:26)

And so a settlement house was essentially a community center for all of the poverty stricken immigrants that were desperate for resources in the area and couldn't get to them.

A (41:35)

Okay.

B (41:36)

And I think if it was not the first, it was one of the first of its kind in the United States to have like basically a resource center for immigrants or people, people in general who need. It didn't have to be immigrants.

A (41:47)

Right.

B (41:48)

She offered as many resources here as she possibly could. Like I'm just gonna list for you some of the things that she was able to offer at the Hull House for anyone in need.

A (41:58)

Okay.

B (42:00)

And this was, this was, had not been done before also. So how she was able to whatever, whatever her connections are is insane.

A (42:07)

She's an old soul man. Okay.

B (42:09)

She was Able to make the Hull House a woman's shelter for battered women. And I think she also was able to offer them midwives if they were pregnant.

A (42:19)

Geez.

B (42:20)

It was a homeless shelter. It was a daycare. It was a public bath house for people who needed showers. It was an English secondary language school. She held citizenship classes here and job training. She hosted legal employment and social service AIDS people. She offered public health programs. She offered meeting spaces for unions. And it also offered a. This is from multiple quotes. I kind of just slammed them all together. A gym, a theater, an art gallery, a music school, a drama group, a boys club, an auditorium, a public kitchen and cafeteria, a coffee house, a swimming pool, a book bindery residence for working women. So they had to make a deal where, if they were working, they could stay here and be housed. Kindergarten had. They had a kindergarten, they had a nursery. They had libraries, a post office meeting and club rooms, art studios and apartments for the residential staff.

A (43:09)

Not like, again, this is why I was so defensive. That's a mansion if it ever deserved a name. You know, like, off with a house. That's insane. That's insane. And, like, it's hard enough to fund the Arts in 2025. Like, they're getting chopped first, right? Like, she's like, oh, we have a gallery here just to, like, stimulate, you know, the art. Like, we're in survival mode. All of you are in survival mode. But that's. We're gonn. So focus on, like, enriching your spirit. You know what the.

B (43:36)

Speaking of spirits, you know, who's. You just really gave pat on the back to because Ellen was in charge of the art gallery.

A (43:43)

I knew, like, there's. Yeah, that's beautiful. God bless these people, man.

B (43:47)

And also, like, this is a reminder that in 2025, we can't offer public health care or daycare or food or books or anything to people.

A (43:55)

We don't. I guess we don't.

B (43:56)

We could. We just don't. They're sync. Hang on, on.

A (44:00)

He's gonna tell you something else.

B (44:02)

No, it's slurp, slurp, slurp.

A (44:03)

Oh, I see.

B (44:04)

But I just. I, I. My brain stops working when I hear a dog slobbering everywhere. I love him very much, but it's. I can't. I was trying to do my notes last night, and that was when he decided to, like, clean his armpit out, and it was crazy.

A (44:19)

Gio does this, like, chewing sound, and I'm like, I'm gonna scream. I'm gonna start screaming.

B (44:23)

So this is more for me than anyone else. I just need to, like, like, hang out for a second.

A (44:27)

I get it.

B (44:28)

Also, when he drinks water, he drinks the whole bowl, so.

A (44:31)

Oh, my God.

B (44:32)

I know. I had to teach him water so he'll actually drink. He, like, doesn't remember to. It's very scary. I don't think he realizes how important it is.

A (44:40)

I love how our dogs have, like, no survival instincts.

B (44:43)

Not one. Not one. He would run to the coyotes if he could.

A (44:46)

He'd be like, friends.

B (44:48)

But, yeah, we could. We could offer all those things, and we just don't. It's crazy. But. And. And also that a woman who barely had any rights was capable of putting it all together.

A (44:57)

But, like, think about the fact that there are people like that today. Like, she's probably reincarnated into someone doing the exact same thing today. That doesn't get any recognition. Getting, you know, like, we don't even know that they're doing this. That's just. It's. The people like this do exist. And that's what I feel like. Mr. Rogers always, like, find those people.

B (45:14)

Yeah.

A (45:14)

No, really, you say, like, find the helpers. And I feel like that's the person. Like, in every age, there are some and there. They know often don't get recognition. So that's fascinating.

B (45:23)

I'm so glad that she at least got, like, I mean, the first woman to get a Nobel Peace Prize. It's like, I can't imagine a person more.

A (45:30)

Yeah. That's incredible.

B (45:31)

So through all of these resources she was able to conjure up, the Hull house helped around 2,000 people every week. And by 1920, it's not like this was a chain and they opened up in other locations, but the Hull House and their mission inspired other settlement houses. And by 1920, there were 500 across the country.

A (45:52)

Wow. See, that's incredible. That's incredible.

B (45:55)

So a lot of the original Hull House has since been demolished, but what's left are historical landmarks. The rest of it has joined a college campus. So, anyway, so Jane Addams worked here until 1935 when she passed. And that's kind of just the history of Jane Addams in the house. But. But we're going to time travel to 1913, right in the middle of her time here. One day, Jane is working at the Hull House, and she answers the door to three Italian women. And they are demanding incessantly to see the devil baby. And apparently they had heard that there is a demon baby that was born here or that was born and then brought to the Hull House because Their father had cursed them after mocking the devil. Devil. And after mocking the devil, the baby was born a monster.

A (46:46)

What?

B (46:47)

Jane was like, nothing like that here. So I don't know where you heard that, but that's.

A (46:53)

We're good.

B (46:54)

If you could leave. But no matter what she said to them, they were insistent that she was hiding a devil baby from them.

A (47:01)

Oh, God. Okay.

B (47:04)

She. And to this day, really, nobody knows where this rumor came from, but it. Someone had just said it. And I will even say so many people were coming in here that needed help in certain ways. There might have been someone with just, like, physical differences, right?

A (47:18)

Yeah.

B (47:19)

And all of a sudden, like, there's a monster that lives here, or you.

A (47:23)

Just hear people who are underserved, who are. Who are giving birth there and, like, single, you know, sex workers, whatever. It's like, I'm sure there would be some sort of. Or. Yeah, yeah.

B (47:33)

There were so many immigrants coming in. I'm sure there was some sort of stereotype and someone said something, and then through the grapevine, it became like a, you know, something I don't agree with. Lives there, whatever. Anyway, we don't know where it really started. And Jane tried to get to the bottom of it. She was like, where the. Did you hear this? Because, like, I'm busy. I'm juggling a lot right now. I don't know about your DNA.

A (47:54)

We do it the Supreme Court in 10 minutes.

B (47:56)

I'm trying to give you human rights.

A (47:58)

Can you leave me alone?

B (48:01)

So she's not sure, but they basically. Wherever this. This group of girls heard it from, everyone in their neighborhood had heard about it too. And, oh, wow. Jane, seemingly overnight, was inundated with people from all over wanting to see the double baby. This was just the first round of people knocking on them.

A (48:20)

I wonder if her saying, like, nope, nothing to see here. Got everybody like, oh, you know, maybe those women went and said, like, she won't let us see the baby. And then everyone got into a fervor.

B (48:28)

Yeah. It eventually turned into Jane, because in her. In the goodness of her heart, would take anyone in, including a devil baby. But she must be hiding this baby from everybody. And so every time she would double down and say, nothing is here, they'd be like, huh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've heard that before. So at first, when I say people from all over wanted to see this double baby, it was people from different blocks. Then it was people from different neighborhoods than people from different boroughs or, you know, whatever the Chicago version is. Then all over the country, I mean, the Rumors spread so fast that within six weeks, people were coming in from other states by the busload. Thousands of people were calling in the police had to, like, work around traffic issues. People were lining up out front. They were camping out, like, just for a chance to see it through the window. Offering to pay her all sorts of money just for a peek at this devil baby.

A (49:22)

What?

B (49:24)

It was nuts. And so the story of the devil baby had multiple versions by the time thousands and thousands of people are coming to see it. The main two were. One was from Italian communities and one was from Jewish communities. And so the Italian version. And of course, there were many offshoots of this, but the main Italian version is that there was this pregnant Catholic woman, and she married an atheist, of course.

A (49:49)

Oh, no.

B (49:50)

So that's problem number one. Apparently, while she was pregnant and they were setting up the house, she put up a portrait of the Virgin Mary in their house, and he ripped it off the wall, and he said he'd rather see the devil in the house than a picture of the Virgin Mary. And so by doing that, when the baby was born, he came as the devil. And some stories even went on to say that they tried to baptize the baby, and it didn't work. One story I particularly enjoyed for the fear factor of it all was, was that they tried to baptize the baby. And when they looked in, like, the baby. When they looked under the cloth to see the baby after it was baptized, the baby was missing. And then they found him running around on the pews at the back of the church. That got me. That got me going in the middle.

A (50:36)

I just pictured that. Like, the little hot stuff devil.

B (50:38)

Yes, that's what I'm thinking. That's totally what I'm thinking. The Jewish version, again, many offshoots, is that there was this pregnant moment. She already had six girls. She already had six girls. She was pregnant again with her seventh. And the husband was like, I would rather have the devil come in here than have another daughter. Either he's horrible or those daughters were horrible. I don't know which version it is.

A (51:01)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It could be.

B (51:02)

He's a. He was like, please, I cannot stand it. Please don't give me another daughter.

A (51:06)

The devil's like, don't mind if I do.

B (51:08)

Yeah. So then the devil. Well, I guess a son was born. But as. As the devil was okay. In either version, the baby is born with some or all of these features. It's not like a metaphorical devil. It was the devil. So the baby was born with horns, hooves, a pointed tail, pointed ears, oily red skin, leather wings, and apparently could curse in multiple languages.

A (51:29)

Oh, that's sick.

B (51:30)

And in some cases, another favorite of these variations is that I guess when the baby was born, the father was smoking a cigar, which.

A (51:39)

Which, wow, classy.

B (51:41)

And the newborn reaches up, grabs a cigar out of the dad's mouth and starts smoking it himself.

A (51:46)

I love this baby.

B (51:47)

It really does sound like hot stuff.

A (51:49)

Hot stuffed devil. He does. He likes people's cigars for them. Yeah.

B (51:52)

And he has red, oily skin, I assume. I don't know about oil.

A (51:54)

The red, oily skin is a wild descriptor, really, that talk about sensory discomfort.

B (51:59)

Like, oily is all you had for me.

A (52:02)

Red, oily. No, no.

B (52:04)

Well, so. So in both of these main versions, basically, he was horrific to look at and they didn't know what to do. When they would show him off by the street, people would scream. I don't know why they're showing him off if they're that terrified of him and he's cussing everyone out and smoking.

A (52:20)

I mean, that's awesome. But.

B (52:22)

So they didn't know what to do. And they were so ashamed of him that they brought him to the hull house where Jane took him in and knows where he is and theoretically hid him in the attic from every everybody. And so it looked very suspicious again that Jane spent weeks denying he existed when every other day there was a new story about this devil baby existing.

A (52:42)

Huh.

B (52:44)

And like, this woman is literally. I know I already said it, but she's trying to save the nation, she's planning. She's trying to save the planet, and you're just like, obviously she's in cahoots with the devil.

A (52:54)

It's like, well, what's suspicious? The fact that she hasn't shown us the babies. Like, okay, that is a losing argument. Like, she's gonna show you the baby or she's not let. There's no.

B (53:05)

I don't feel a moral. That, like, you could literally try to save the planet and people will still find a way to. Literally.

A (53:11)

Especially if you do. I think especially if you do try.

B (53:14)

Yeah. There could have. Like I said earlier, there could have been a baby that just had something physical going on that was noticeable to others, and people literally demonized him and warped the story and they. Back in the day, it was, I guess, commonplace that you could be ashamed of a baby and want to just stuff it away in an attic and. Yeah, never see it again. So I guess maybe for the time it was more realistic Of a theory. But then you would just say, oh, well, you know what even know? Because people would be so ashamed, quote, of the baby that this story wouldn't have even come out that you gave birth to this baby. Right. I don't know.

A (53:48)

I mean, someone might have like a midwife or a, you know what I.

B (53:51)

Mean, on her lunch break gospel or.

A (53:53)

Somebody who knows like that a family gave a baby away. And I don't know, I feel like these things would spread 100.

B (54:04)

Anyway, Jane and the staff were adamant there was no devil baby. She actually even wrote a lengthy. But I did read it, a lengthy piece for one of the 1916 issues of the Atlantic.

A (54:16)

Wow.

B (54:17)

And it even still says on the website, says by Jane Addams.

A (54:20)

I'm like, oh, that's cool.

B (54:22)

But so she, she wrote in on like her entire experience with it. And actually this is like such a woman who is focused on like other people because she could have spent the entire piece saying, like, it wasn't me, it wasn't me, there is no devil baby, blah, blah, blah. She spent most of the article talking about some of the horrific experiences of the people living in this tenement housing and all the immigrants and like what they came to the country to find.

A (54:45)

To like humanizing them. Yeah, yeah.

B (54:47)

And even going so far, a lot of the article was her theorizing why these people so desperately needed to believe in the devil baby.

A (54:56)

So it's like a think piece more than any sort of like defense or whatever. Yeah.

B (55:00)

And she had every right to make it a defense if she wanted to. And instead she went, actually, I think it was really important culturally for these people to, wow, believe in this. And I mean humanitarian at the end. This is one quote from her. It's a long one, but it's worth it to me, hopefully to you, that this was her experience when she first started getting corralled or corralled bombarded with people asking to, to see this thing. Jane Addams. No amount of denial convinced them that he was not there. Throughout six weeks as I was at the Hull House, I would hear a voice at the telephone repeating for the hundredth time that day, no, there is no such baby. And then another one again. No, we never had that here. No, he couldn't have seen. No, you couldn't have seen it for 50 cents. We're not taking any money. Oh, we didn't send it anywhere because we never had it. I don't mean to say that your sister in law lied, but that must be some mistake. There is no point getting an excursion from Milwaukee for there isn't any double baby at the Hull House.

A (56:02)

Oh, so she's funny too.

B (56:03)

Yeah. She. She's like, I'm not. Just stay away.

A (56:07)

She's edgy. I like her.

B (56:08)

She then says, although the visitors to the Devil Baby included people of every degree of prosperity and education, even physicians and trained nurses, who assured us of their scientific interest only the story constantly demonstrated the power of an old wives tale. And the reputed presence of the Devil Baby at Hull House did not reach the newspapers until the fifth of six weeks after thousands of people had already been informed of his whereabouts by the old method of passing news from mouth to mouth. So, wow. She was like, we didn't even need the paper. The whole country knew about this.

A (56:38)

It was too late. Yeah. The journalists were behind. Wow.

B (56:41)

And like I said, she mentions quite a lot in her piece that of the people coming in droves, a lot of them were older women, especially older immigrant women or older poor women. And so she. She thinks a lot of it was they needed to believe in it because it gave them comfort in the powers that be and to remind them that during all of these real struggles they're dealing with as an immigrant, where they thought that they were coming here to have a better life, in a lot of ways, their lives were not that great just yet, or maybe never. I don't know. I don't know their situations. But given their daily struggles that they were enduring at the time, it was a reminder for them to not feel like they had failed their families or failed their faith by coming here.

A (57:22)

So interesting.

B (57:24)

And it was also a way for them to focus their anxieties on something external instead of worrying about what was going on.

A (57:30)

Right.

B (57:30)

So I thought it was a really good article. Also, fun fact. The Devil Baby was the inspiration for Rosemary's Baby.

A (57:38)

Oh, I was gonna ask if there was any connection. Yeah.

B (57:41)

Yeah. So anyway, after six weeks of this, the story slowly died down. But the lore still makes the Hull House one of the most notoriously spooky places in Chicago. So there's the Devil Baby, which is like the main reason people would go on like a tour here now if they wanted something spooky. But as for ghosts, it's actually said that Jane and Ellen were warned about ghosts before they even got the house, that it was already haunted. And when they moved in, there were already tenement orders living there.

A (58:12)

Yeah.

B (58:12)

And they said that they would regularly see things to a point where they would leave water out on the steps at night because they believed that spirits couldn't cross water. And they just wanted to sleep.

A (58:23)

Oh, my Lord. So it's active already.

B (58:26)

Yeah. And Jane, Wow. Jane didn't know she really believed in ghosts. And she was like, okay, well, that's, that's a silly story. Ended up calling her own room the haunted room at the house.

A (58:37)

And she's a smart lady, we know. You know, she doesn't take any.

B (58:40)

So, yeah, she, it was also the room where the wife, the original wife actually died. And so that would make sense why there was a ghost there. But, But Jane would sleep in there, and she would wake up seeing Mrs. Hull watch her while she slept. And sometimes Mrs. Hull would be hovering over her bed. Other times, Jane would hear conversations in there when it was empty. So she moved into another room and made that a guest room. You guests.

A (59:06)

And love it, love it, love it. Listen, she needs sleep, okay?

B (59:09)

She does.

A (59:09)

She's got a lot to do tomorrow.

B (59:11)

And the guests had similar situations. So to this day, people in certain rooms feel like they're being watched in there. People hear a woman's voice talking to them, or they'll hear voices downstairs when they're upstairs, or vice versa, and they can never find the voice. People hear doors slamming and they hear footsteps upstairs. People will say that they feel something bumped into them when no one was there or would brush past them. They'll smell Jane's lavender perfume. The staff have seen a woman walking around the house, so it's thought to be either Jane or Mrs. Hull. But Mrs. Hull is definitely a ghost here because one Jane also saw her. Other people saw her when they lived there. And she was known as the say it with me, lady in white.

A (59:55)

Ah.

B (59:56)

Because she wore white and she was seen all the time walking around in the kitchen. And people claim that there's also another woman upstairs watching them below in Victorian garb. People say that that same woman will vanish. If you end up running into her in the halls and you try talking to her, she'll just go away, which I love. That's a great.

A (60:13)

I wish I had that superpower.

B (60:15)

Yeah, just vanish.

A (60:16)

Just like, while someone talks to me.

B (60:17)

Just never mind. There's a, the ghost of a monk that is seen roaming around here. There is a phantom chill, a phantom children laughter, if you will. And not only the, the giggling, which I, I, I usually don't stand for, but I would take that over the rest of this. Apparently, they, There are also ghosts of kids running around where you can hear little footsteps and laughter. But also people have seen children running around and often at unusual Speed. And they jump and climb on everything and dart around in weird ways.

A (60:58)

Yeesh. Oh, no, thank you.

B (61:01)

There is also a courtyard that is said to be the portal to all of these spirits, by the way. But in the courtyard, there used to be this fountain where people would see kids playing by all the time. And there were never any kids, so they became known as the fountain kids. These ghosts. Wow. And I don't know if they're the same ghosts that are moving with crazy speed, but yeah, on top of the fact that there are ghost children around here on a lot of like display cases, because this is now a museum, a lot of display cases or windows will always have little handprints on them, but with one extra digit, which again is like, is that the devil or just someone with like extra stuff going on? But of course, for the story, it makes it spooky, you know?

A (61:44)

Sure. Okay. I was just thinking those six toed cats at Hemingway House, I was like, oh, that's cool.

B (61:51)

Well, the attic is where, of course, the devil baby was allegedly hidden. So that's where people claim there's the most activity here. People have extreme temperature changes. The locked doors up there will unlock and open themselves. If you go into a room where the door is open, it will lock you in. Sometimes people have heard scratching and rustling and scurrying on. On the other side of the attic door. One tour that was going through heard loud dragging and a crash in the room. And when they looked around, a chair had dragged itself out from under a desk and fell over by itself. Imagine being on that tour. Imagine being the tour guide and you're.

A (62:27)

Like, and now I have to open this door anyway.

B (62:32)

Yeah. The basement apparently is super menacing. People will see very tall, scary looking shadows approaching them in a scary way.

A (62:41)

No.

B (62:42)

People will see glowing eyes. They'll hear dragging and people have gotten shoved and scratched down there. People have also seen books fly off the bookshelf by themselves. They've heard their name get called out. The security alarms will go off. Off. People will hear rustling in the kitchen, which I like to think would just be me as a ghost. And the staff will get locked in and out of rooms all the time by doors that should not be locking. And finally, of course, people claim that they smell sulfur, hear a baby crying, and see an evil tiny face in the windows as if the devil baby is really there and has been all along.

A (63:14)

He's just smoking a cigar.

B (63:16)

Just smoking a cigar.

A (63:17)

Oh, yeah.

B (63:17)

It's not even smoke. Like hell. It's just his cigar.

A (63:19)

Yeah, cigar Smoke. Yeah.

B (63:21)

Okay. Sorry that was so long, but that is the Hull House.

A (63:23)

That was good. I was creeped out by some of that, man.

B (63:26)

I. And I really. I'm sorry. I'm like, I hope that the double baby. There was no even, like, real version of like, a baby who's now.

A (63:34)

Yeah, yeah.

B (63:35)

But. But I say that to say I really do just envision hot stuff in my head the whole time.

A (63:40)

Yes, I know. With the little diaper. Like, I mean, it's literally the devil baby.

B (63:44)

Yes. Yeah, you. As soon as you said it, I went, well, that image is stuck there.

A (63:47)

Yeah. That I was actually wearing that T shirt earlier. I meant to wear it, and then I ended up changing.

B (63:51)

Have you gotten your tatt? So tired of this. When does it happen?

A (63:54)

Oh, okay. Now that's a story for. Here's the. The. I'll tell you the tldr.

B (64:01)

Well, we are. We're about to go into intermission. Do you want to make that the intermission thing or. No?

A (64:04)

I did really want to send you Mall World, too, though.

B (64:06)

Okay. Okay. Right, right, right.

A (64:08)

But I'll say it here, and then maybe I'll remember to say it next. Say. Say more. Or maybe it's not worth saying more. I got scammed. I got fully. Yeah, I've been meaning to tell this story for so long, and I just keep forgetting that.

B (64:20)

Coming.

A (64:20)

I got fully scammed. It was quite. Quite an elaborate hoax. I went back through all the emails and went, wow, they really got me good.

B (64:28)

Did you already give them money?

A (64:29)

Oh, yeah.

B (64:30)

Oh, Christine.

A (64:31)

Oh, yeah. It was. It was a lesson. I was really humbled, and I. I've been wanting to share for a while because I'm like, as the true crime half of the show, like, you'd think I'd be. And I usually have really good spidey senses about, like, phishing emails or, you know, anything like that. I feel like I'm pretty literate in that way. But no, anyone's.

B (64:49)

Anyone can get got.

A (64:50)

God. And they really, like, they knew. They were able to look through my Instagram and make it, like, really personal, you know, and it was just like, real, real, real up.

B (64:59)

What was. What was your last message with them? Did you ever say, like, I'm being scammed?

A (65:03)

Like, what I. I, at one point did. I ended up writing an email. Like, I'm submitting this information to the local police or whatever, and I submitted a police report, but obviously they just.

B (65:16)

Yeah, respond.

A (65:16)

I mean, I don't know what I wanted. I didn't want to.

B (65:19)

Oh, I'M sorry, did that put a bad taste in your mouth to, like, not get it now?

A (65:23)

No, I just have been like, okay, that was a big chunk of money I'd saved up for a tattoo, so I'm gonna not just, like, jump into another, you know, And I was like, I'm just gonna.

B (65:32)

And to defend you before people reach out at all for.

A (65:35)

Yeah.

B (65:35)

And are curious. You. You. You did give her money or the money or whoever, because there was already a date in mind to.

A (65:42)

Oh, yeah, we were supposed to meet up that schedule. It was, like, a whole thing. Yeah. I finally caught on because. And they were very, like, they would, like, not ask for money for, like, weeks and send actual art. Like, they were really with me, like, to a very elaborate degree.

B (65:58)

Why?

A (65:59)

And. Yeah. Yeah.

B (66:00)

So what. Sorry. Go ahead. Sorry.

A (66:02)

No, no, you're good. I just ended up sending them, like, it was like a. Like, a half of the payment. It was like a half the tattoo deposit type thing. And it's so weird because, like, we had a Zoom meeting scheduled, and then I canceled the Zoom because I was like, oh, we're traveling. Like, I'm. And so it's like, what would have ha. Would they have canceled the Zoom at the last minute? Would they have ghosted me then? Like, I don't know what the. Like, it felt so interpersonal that I was, like, totally blindsided. But I started to get a bad feeling, and then I ignored that bad feeling, and now I've gotten a lot more. Like, any time I feel even an inkling of, like, huh. I'm. I'm like, check this first. Like, check this first.

B (66:42)

What was the thing that made you suspicious? Or when did it happen?

A (66:45)

When did it happen? Embarrassing. Way too late.

B (66:48)

Oh.

A (66:50)

Because they. I mean, if you go back, it's so embarrassing. If you go back and listen to that episode, please don't. But if you do, I understand. But it's embarrassing because I'm like, wow. It's the craziest thing. The universe aligned, you know? I mean, it's really.

B (67:01)

No, they. They knew exactly what you would.

A (67:03)

They knew what they were doing.

B (67:04)

Yeah.

A (67:04)

Yeah.

B (67:05)

Died. No judgment.

A (67:06)

It was pretty. Pretty cringe looking back, but I. They basically ended up sending an email that was like, oh, my dog is hurt. Can you send me money? And I went, what? Like, it was just like, okay, this is clearly. They're on their last. Trying to just get whatever penny they can out of me. And I was like, this is immediately. I was like, oh. It was like a. It was like all the kind of Spidey senses were suddenly like, damn it.

B (67:30)

It all fell in on itself all at once.

A (67:31)

Yeah.

B (67:32)

Yeah.

A (67:32)

I mean, it was. Yeah, it was like a. It was a. It was a couple hundred dollars. And so I was like, this doesn't feel good. And I. I left it. I still want to get the tattoo because I just love it and I don't have bad feelings about the tattoo or man. I was like, oh, I gotta be more careful. So I. Anyway, I say all this because I want people to not feel like that. That. I don't know, it can happen to anybody. So be careful.

B (67:56)

Yeah, no, I. That sucks. But also, for some reason, it would hurt my feelings twice as much. So, like, they're basically breaking up with me where I'm like, wow, even they don't want to do this shtick anymore.

A (68:06)

I know.

B (68:07)

I'm like, honestly, they never obviously be shady.

A (68:10)

Immediately then they ghosted me and I was like, wow, I suck. They really. Wow. They really rubbed the salt in it. But I'm sorry, it was. It was all fine. And like, honestly, I was more like mortified than anything. And then I was like, whoa, okay. And I went through the emails and I was like, damn, I've shown a couple of people and they were like, I mean, honestly, it's very convincing. Like. And I talked to my father in law who also recently had something happen on Etsy where somebody got like scammed him. And like, he was showing me the text and I was like, yeah, like, you start to realize the patterns, but like, in the moment they really take you off guard. Like, they really can disarm you. You.

B (68:46)

I mean, I've been scammed before. Yeah, it happens. It happens. Yeah.

A (68:50)

Okay, that. Thank you. I was like. And all people that true crime half shouldn't be getting bamboozled.

B (68:56)

If it makes you feel any better, I got scammed by literally one of those people who was like, oh, your. Your card was. We have to go. We have to. Your password into your bank account. And the only reason I knew something shady was going on was because then I heard a dog bark. And I was like, why the would there be a dog at your company? Like, that dog was literally trying to like, tell me. Like, like, girl, get out of here.

A (69:16)

That dog saved you. Wow.

B (69:19)

Yeah. So.

A (69:19)

Sheesh.

B (69:20)

It's the whistleblower.

A (69:21)

The whistleblower.

B (69:23)

No, but it happens. At some point, I think everyone is going to. You just hope that you get out of the scam fast enough, you know?

A (69:29)

Yeah. Just be careful. You know, if people are asking you for something Always, always want say why. And also, is there a more even safer way to. To do this exchange? Because yeah, really silly stuff. But yeah. So that's what happened. Sor. I never gave that update. I like, I've been meaning to since I think it was. I found out in August or something. It's been a. Oh wow. Maybe. Maybe later. But it was like a couple months ago. But honestly I feel like the timing wasn't right anyway. Like looking back, I'm like I have had new thoughts about it. I've been kind of brainstorming so I will eventually get my. Hopefully if. If I don't get bamboozled all over again. I mean I'll hopefully get him tattooed again. But it's just. And also, honestly, like of all tattoos, the fact that it was that little devil guy and then I got totally hoodwinked.

B (70:18)

I was gonna say the irony of it being a dog. It feels ironic and something. Yeah. Well, okay. I'm glad I asked, but I'm so sorry.

A (70:25)

But no, no, thank you for reminding me. I've been wanting to tell that story for ages. But yeah, so just. Just good stuff. But yeah. Anyway, sorry, I know we probably all have to pee. Etc.

B (70:36)

No, we can. Do you want to pee first and then intermission?

A (70:39)

Yeah. Then Mall World. Let's meet him. I'll meet you at the Hollis. I'll catch a flashlight.

B (70:44)

Send me your. Your pin and I.

A (70:46)

A pen. I'll. If I. If. No way. Because I'm not getting sc. I'm not getting Bamboozled in Mall World. Okay. I feel like we have a cheat code for gifting this year because Story Worth is a really good one. You know, I love a gift that's thoughtful but also like easy and like fits multiple people. Cuz we're busy. Right? We're trying to do our best. We're trying to make people feel cared for. Story Worth is a really great option. I know. We've both gifted did this to people in our lives.

B (71:13)

Yeah. We recommend Story Memoirs too for your loved ones this holiday season. It might sound a little intimidating, but they'll love it. It's a gift that they won't see coming and something that makes them feel truly special. And it turns out that it's also a gift for you because now you get the stories from your family and everyone gets to enjoy it.

A (71:29)

Yeah, it's really cool. So each week storyworth emails a loved one a memory provoking question that you get to choose. Like what were your favorite toys as a child? I found out some weird ones from my parents or what are you most proud of and like? It's things you don't necessarily ask every day. All your loved one needs to do is respond to that email with the story and they can write it, which I know some people prefer to type it out or they can record it over the phone and Storyworth will transcribe it, which is like such a great development.

B (71:52)

Yeah. And Story Worth compiles your loved one's stories and photos. The photos are printed in vibrant color and this year they added a bunch of new features to make storytelling even easier with new book designs. 35 million family stories since their founding 13 years ago and they have over 48,000 five star reviews on Trust Pilot.

A (72:07)

Give your loved ones a unique keepsake you'll all cherish for years. Storyworth Memoirs right now save $10 or more during their holiday sale when you go to storyworth.com drink that's storyworth.com drink.

B (72:17)

To save $10 or more on your order.

A (72:20)

I'm tired of big wireless bullying me around.

B (72:23)

I get it. I hate bullies. I hate them.

A (72:25)

Please no more sucking the joy out of the holidays with these giant bills. Because right now all of Mint Mobile's Unlimited plans are 50% off. You can get 3, 6 or 12 months of unlimited premium wireless for 15 bucks a month. That's not a joke. That an exaggeration. It's their best deal of the year and they make it really easy for us to give our expensive bill what I like to call the Scrooge treatment. Just kick it to the curb.

B (72:48)

Yeah. Mint Mobile's this is our best deal of the year. It's happening right now. And like Christine said, you can get 3, 6 or 12 month unlimited plans for $15 a month. Love that we have Lovement Mobile. It has saved us in many ways on the road and we're very grateful for them. We are.

A (73:05)

No contracts, no nonsense. You can even bring your current phone and phone number over to Mint Mobile Mobile. Turn your expensive wireless present into a huge wireless savings future by switching to Mint Shop. Mint Unlimited plans@mint mobile.com ATWD that's mintmobile.com ATWD Limited time offer upfront payment of 45 for three months, 90 for six months or 180 for 12 month plan required. 15 month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only. More than 35 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Capable device required availability, speed and coverage vary. Seamitmobile.com.

B (73:39)

Okay, well unfortunately back to our regularly scheduled programming where we just get bummed the out. But I'm excited, I gotta say.

A (73:47)

Yeah, this. That was a quite a tangent. We went on there. We talked about. I was really fun. I was really interesting. We looked at some mall world maps and we talked about our. Our general dream worlds we go to and just kind of some creepy stuff. Anyway, so now let's get back to, unfortunately, the real world. I'm going to tell you a story. This came across my. Came across my desk when I'm a broadcaster. I don't know why I said it like that. This, like, came across my. What. What Windshield? What am I saying?

B (74:22)

I mean, you could just say, came across your desk. It sounds actually really cool.

A (74:26)

So it sounds ridiculous, but sure, yeah. So it came. Say it up. No, no, it came up as I was researching last week's story about Daniel Robinson. He went in the desert and we still don't know what happened to him. And we talked about that. And this one came across my desk also while I was researching that because it occurred around the same time and also got kind of similar criticism for not being handled with enough media exposure as Gabby Petito's case. So similar time period, similar type of story also takes place in the desert. So I'm just going to tell this now while I have it fresh in my mind. This is the story of Lauren, or as she was known by her friends, Elle Cho. Okay, so El Cho. Lauren was born on December 20, 1990 in South Korea, but grew up in New Jersey as a Korean American woman. She was described as creative, funny, intensely loyal. Just like a really goofy type of. Goofy and different type of type of girl. She graduated from Hunterdon Central Regional high school in 2009 and later studied music education at Westminster Choir College. She worked as a music teacher upon graduating. But when the pandemic hit, you know, teaching in general obviously got a huge hit. But then imagine having to teach music virtually. Like, not an easy situation.

B (75:57)

Tough gig.

A (75:58)

Yeah. And so she really kind of got hit with that. What felt really.

B (76:04)

What instrument was she teaching?

A (76:05)

Teaching? I think different instruments. She was in a choir group. I believe she played cello. There were a couple. She was just one of those, like, very musically gifted people. And so she was teaching high school music. So I'm assuming that's just all sorts of. I mean, remember in the Panama, again, like, people just stopped even caring because, like, there was so much going on that, like, caring about classes. I mean, I wasn't in college, but my sister was, and I knew people who were in college and it was like, like they had to Scramble to even get students to, like, pay attention. Zoom was barely. Or show up or like, Zoom was barely a thing. Like, people were just trying to find any way. And like, of course music, you know, the arts, as we say, like, is probably one of the first to be asked. And so, like, how are you going to teach a high school music class in 2020 on the Internet? Like, that's crazy to even think about.

B (76:57)

Can I try to top you real quick? Because I don't know if you recall, but we lived in the roach apartment during COVID with rj and he was a swim coach during COVID and he had to.

A (77:10)

Oh, my God. That's right. I knew it reminded me of something.

B (77:13)

He had to teach swim classes online on the Internet. Like, you're right.

A (77:17)

That's even more. That's even. Yeah, that's the one thing besides like, PE or whatever that, that he would just.

B (77:23)

I just hear him and they're go, good job.

A (77:28)

Wow. Now that you're right.

B (77:30)

Now do this. This.

A (77:32)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Use your good form. Oh, my God. M. You're right. Yeah, that, that's up there. That is up there.

B (77:38)

He, yeah, he. A lot of people. I, I, he was my only experience, and that was obviously one of the most.

A (77:44)

I'm just saying, like, the only other thing would be, like, downhill skiing. Something where you would require, like, a mountain or like your Olympic pool, like, your driver's license.

B (77:53)

Like.

A (77:53)

Right. Like, I mean, even that you could sort of simulate. But. Yeah, I mean, mean, I know.

B (77:58)

I feel so.

A (77:59)

Very Good point.

B (77:59)

Anyone who had to teach anything online, anything, even if it was a book class, like, just getting kids to sit still and actually pay attention to you, they had all of the luxuries of.

A (78:08)

Their bedroom, like, and figure out how, like, mute works. And I mean, Gez. Yeah, exactly. No supervision.

B (78:14)

Cheers. Clinky. To all the teachers out there.

A (78:16)

Yes. I mean, honestly. And like, you know, she had just graduated college. She was in her early 20s. Like, like, she was just not satisfied with this career path.

B (78:27)

She had to be her early 20s. She probably. She just started teaching and this was her first real try at it. Or she. In her early years at least. I would be so discouraged.

A (78:37)

It's like, disheartening. Discouraging. Exactly. Very discouraging. And so in December of 2020, after feeling, like, really fed up with the whole situation, she quit her job and decided to travel cross country with her friend. And this guy was also her ex. Partner. Ex Boyfriend. Cody. Cody Orell. Or oral. I'm not sure how to pronounce it okay. To pursue. They decided they were going to move west to pursue a new life together. Not really together as a couple. Just like he said, I'll come along with you. They were good friends, and they decided to go west and pursue her dream of becoming a chef and running a food truck. And so Lauren, yeah, she was a very good chef, very good baker. And so she and Cody traveled in a converted school bus, and they eventually settled in Bombay Beach, California, which is this, like, artsy desert community by June 2021. Lauren. Oh, do you know something about it?

B (79:33)

Do you remember the van story?

A (79:34)

Is that. What is that? I had a feeling.

B (79:37)

Oh, that's a long story. It's. That's way too long for this episode right now, but Christine knows an experience of mine.

A (79:44)

I don't ever want to talk about it again.

B (79:46)

I mean, Bombay beach was very, very cool, but the story I have was not okay.

A (79:52)

So the reason that I thought maybe there was a connection is because. I'm sorry for the way. Because this is exactly where I was thinking, because Kendall Ray covered this one on her YouTube channel, and she talked about how, like, in the 70s, this was, like, a very good touristy spot, but then, like, issues with the lake and issues with stuff happen, and it just became, like, more of, like, an artsy kind of people settled there when they didn't. Didn't have anywhere else to go or didn't want to go anywhere else. And I was like, this is starting to sound familiar.

B (80:23)

Yeah, it was a story. It was essentially like a Palm Springs back then. Yes.

A (80:28)

Yes.

B (80:28)

And it was a very beautiful area now. So this. The near Bombay beach is the Salton Sea.

A (80:33)

Yes.

B (80:34)

Which was so salty, it's literally dried up.

A (80:37)

Oh, that's what it is.

B (80:38)

Okay. So a lot of people will do, like, music videos and stuff out there because it looks like a desert, but it was once an ocean.

A (80:43)

Okay.

B (80:45)

And now there are a lot of artsy things and a lot of the community out there. They are just living out there, and they spend most of their time making art with whatever they can find in town. This isn't everybody, but is a major poll for people, because if you want to go see something interesting or, you know, different than living in the city, they're really cool stuff. Like, there's one area that looks like a, A, A drive in theater, and it. Someone clearly just pushed a bunch of the old abandoned cars all facing one direction with a big white screen.

A (81:17)

Like, it's, like, so cool.

B (81:19)

It's very creepy art. And the creepy element is because it is pretty isolated during the day.

A (81:25)

So the aesthetic of it, too feels very creepy.

B (81:28)

Yeah, it's very ghost townie. And so dried up lake. It feels like you're alone surrounded by, like, very, very big art installments and you're like, what the is going on?

A (81:40)

Like, almost abandoned. Like an abandoned movie theater. Like, that's very creepy.

B (81:44)

Yeah. I mean, even one of the cooler things is the. The lake that's now dried up. You'll literally just find, like, fish skeletons, like, evidence that there was an ocean there. It's super.

A (81:51)

Oh, that just gave me chills. Yeah, that's. That's unsettling. And it actually is incredibly good context because essentially she moved out there. And when I was saying earlier, like, she was known as just being very, like, creative and different. I say that because, for example, like, she worked for a while as a tattoo and piercing apprentice after college and had like. I mean, she was beautiful, but, like, had really specific, like, piercings and things that, like, you know, you can tell looking at somebody in their 20s, like, oh, wow, they have, like, a different style. Right. Like, she has tattoos and piercings, and not everybody conforms to that kind of.

B (82:26)

Sure look.

A (82:27)

Right. And so she moved out there with this guy, and when they got to this area, she really felt like she fit. And she did. She had some really good friends there. She actually worked as the chef, the private chef at an Airbnb that was owned by this Italian actor. And it wasn't an Airbnb. It was called an Airbnb or a. Some sort of Airbnb complex. It was like all these multiple houses. Apparently it was known for having very liberal policies about clothing and drugs. Right. So it's some sort of like, not drugs, like hard drugs, really, but like.

B (83:01)

Just very, like, hippie commun.

A (83:03)

Yes, exactly, exactly. And so, like, people. Clothing optional, you know, just very laid back, very artsy. And so that is the context that this story is around, because she moved there from New Jersey, Right. As a teacher and moved here to pursue her dream of opening her school bus up as a restaurant.

B (83:20)

Like, wow.

A (83:21)

You know, that's like, very. A very unique path. But she ended up there. And so that's. I'm glad you brought that up because that is very, very good context.

B (83:31)

I really was trying to keep it together. I think you noticed me, like, wince or something.

A (83:34)

I was like, you have something to.

B (83:36)

And you.

A (83:36)

Can you tell the class you want to share with the class?

B (83:40)

No, not, not.

A (83:42)

I mean, well, maybe in your memoir.

B (83:44)

I do, but it. It would obviously you know, the story, it would take way too long.

A (83:47)

So, yeah, we. That needs its own, like, chapter of your memoir to.

B (83:51)

That could be an intermission if we ever need it or something.

A (83:53)

Very good point. Yeah, very good point. So they settled for a time in Bombay beach, this artsy desert community on the Salton sea. And by June 2021, she was working as a private show chef at this Airbnb type property called the Hole. W H O L E. The Hole. That sounds a lot scarier. The whole. And it was located between Morongo Valley and Yucca Valley, California, near Joshua Tree. So a little bit of context. Before her disappearance, friends and her ex boyfriend, Cody later told reporters that Lauren had moved west seeking freedom and a fresh start, and that she was working on recipes and private dinners as part of her ambitions to become Michelle Chef. According to friends, Lauren had recently been experiencing some emotional stress and mental distress, although they said, like, not to the point that we think she would have been in crisis and wandered off, but, you know, you never know.

B (84:46)

Sure.

A (84:47)

I can imagine that many people in general, let alone in their, like, early 20s, trying to, like, start fresh, were not somehow mentally distressed during 2020. Right. Like, that's a fair. It's fair to assume a lot of us were struggling. Right. And so there's never been, like, a formal diagnosis. But that's just something to note that her friends did say she was feeling, like, stressed and distressed occasionally before her disappearance. So in the days leading up to the disappearance, which was June 28, 2021, she had been staying at the Ben Mar Trail property with Cody and other friends. And they had their school bus there. She and Cody were living on this school bus. It was pretty busy, big. And basically they said, like, even though we were exes, that was in high school, and, like, we were just close friends and there's nothing weird about it, you know?

B (85:40)

Yeah.

A (85:42)

So Fast forward to June 28, 2021, the day of the disappearance. Lauren was at the property in the 8600 block of Benmar Trail, near Yucca Valley, where she lived and worked. Friends later told authorities and media that Lauren had become upset. That afternoon, she and her friends and Cody were having a few drinks. It was a hot day. They had a couple beers. And when she and Cody had kind of an offside chat, offline chat, they started to argue about something. And it seems very minor, but she got annoyed, and she apparently wanted to get in the car and drive somewhere. And he told her, you can't drive. You've had a few drinks and she got really frustrated and walked away way.

B (86:24)

And this is out in Bombay Beach?

A (86:26)

Yes.

B (86:27)

Okay.

A (86:28)

At.

B (86:28)

Yeah.

A (86:29)

In that area. Yeah. At approximately 3pm Lauren reportedly walked away from the residence on foot, heading toward the surrounding hills and desert area near Hoopa Road and Bedmar Trail. She left behind her personal belongings, including her cell phone, her bag and other items she typically carried with her. And her friends were like, oh, she just needs to blow off some steam. You know, she's mad that, that like Cody wouldn't let her drive. After she had a few drinks, she just walked away to like huff and puff, whatever.

B (86:56)

Yeah. Take a lap.

A (86:58)

Yep. But 10 minutes in, Cody started to feel a little off and said we should go after and look for her. She had left behind her personal belongings, including her cell phone. So they couldn't even call her to find her. Her bag. Other items she typically carried with her, especially if she were leaving the property. Property friends noted she also left behind her pet parrotlet. This was a small bird she was reportedly very attached to, did not like to leave behind even for a few hours. She would start to get anxious if she left him behind. And when she left, she was last seen wearing a yellow T shirt, jean shorts and Doc Martens style boots.

B (87:38)

Okay.

A (87:39)

Her ex boyfriend, Cody, he is described as being the last person to have seen her when she disappeared appeared. He and friends began to search the immediate area and hills around the property. About 10 minutes after she walked away, they started looking. But the more they looked, the more concerned they got because they could not find any trace of her after roughly three hours when she did not come back. Right. They're like looking and looking, hoping she'll just turn up and say, what are you guys doing? You know, she just doesn't seem to be coming back. Three hours later, Cody contacts the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department, Morongo Basin State to report her missing. And that is 5:13pm so the initial law enforcement response occurred quickly. The San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department opened a missing person investigation. And again, like we're in that dangerous part of the world where you don't necessarily realize how quickly your body falls apart. If you don't have water, if you don't have right communication to the outside world, you know, you don't have your phone, you don't have, have shelter.

B (88:42)

I don't know the geography very well. I don't know how big Bombay beach is. I only know the area by the Salton Sea because we went to go see all the artsy stuff. But it, it was definitely A place where, like, you don't. You're not out by yourself at night.

A (89:01)

Like for safety reasons.

B (89:02)

For safety reasons, yeah. Like it. Not that it was particularly dangerous, but it was so isolated and it was so you. I mean, it. You just don't know who's out there. It. I mean, it feels creepy during the day. So, like, going out at night would just kind of feel silly.

A (89:18)

Well, and like liberal, open, progressive places like this draw also people who don't have good intentions. Right. Like, not everybody who's there is going to be like a peace and love, you know, I mean, there's. And. And if they can find vulnerable people. Yeah. So you're right. There's like that fear base of like, like. And the fact that they're not finding any trace of her is alarming because also the Doc Martin shoes, like you'd think the police came out and said, we can't even find her shoe prints out here. So, like, either she hopped in a car, you know, got picked up, something like that. But yeah, it's. It's like alarming because you'd expect in 10 minutes that she's just kind of in the area. Right. Like.

B (89:58)

Right, right.

A (90:00)

It adds to the creep factor for sure.

B (90:02)

So it's like she, like right away was maybe taken. Taken off.

A (90:05)

Something like a very. Something very quickly happened. I mean, it's one of those cases where you hear like 10 minutes and anything can happen. Like that. Anything can happen. So they open this missing person investigation. Early searches involve deputies, search and rescue volunteers. I believe they had like nine dogs searching for her. They combed the desert with volunteers and rugged terrain near the Benmar Trail property. They had these ground teams with K9s that were deployed. At least one aircraft was used to search from the air, and authorities described the search area as rugged terrain of the open desert of Yucca Valley with challenging conditions, high heat and limited shade. Missing person flyers with Lauren's description and a photo were posted throughout Yucca Valley and Morongo Valley. The word got out pretty quickly locally, but for several months it couldn't really get beyond that. It remained largely regional, covered by local news outlets, outlets such as a high desert star, ABC affiliates, regional online news. It just wasn't blowing up to be a nationwide story. So in September 2021, law enforcement publicly announced that the specialized investigations Division, which includes a homicide detail, had joined the search due to the length of her disappearance and the fact that they just had no leads. One of the alarming elements, like I said earlier, was the lack of the Footprints. And that led them to believe, like, maybe she didn't wander for hours and hours, because we probably would have seen some tracks somewhere, which obviously indicates that it could be foul play. Or maybe she was injured far earlier than they thought. Or far closer. Right, but then why aren't they finding any trace of her? Just very confusing. Friends and family created online pages and a website to share information about Lauren using her nickname. Else. Well, describing her as a talented musician, baker, hilarious and loyal friend. Some coverage compared the lower national attention to Lauren's disappearance with the intense national focus on Gabby Petito, which is something I brought up with the Daniel Robinson case because they did occur around the same time. And both of the two cases I've just mentioned were people of color. Whereas, you know, Gabby Petito. I will say, of course, that that case had its own. Own kind of sick fascination because there was so much video footage and she was a vlogger. I mean, it really lends itself to, like, a nationwide story. But I think the argument is always, like, it's not that people want less coverage for a story like Gabby Petito. It's that, you know, I wish we had that same amount of coverage for everyone. For everyone. For all the people missing. Yeah. And so that. I just say that to say that's how they both came across my desk recently is sure kind of looking in that. In that shadow of the Gabby Petito case, so. Which I have not covered yet, and I will at some point, because it is a really dark and Gabby Petito.

B (93:00)

You haven't covered that? I always. I always mix it up with Brianless pieces.

A (93:04)

Oh, no. Gabby Petito. She's like the Van Life influencer.

B (93:09)

Yeah. No, I just mixed up their. I don't know why, but they both were. They seemed the same level of heightened to me.

A (93:16)

Interesting. Yeah. I feel like Gabby Feto is something I need to cover at some point because I don't know enough about it yet anyway. So essentially, that raised a lot of broader questions about disparities in media attention, especially regarding people of color and women of color. And as for the ongoing search, which went into fall of 2021, throughout July, August, and September, search teams conducted additional operations in the desert around Yucca Valley and Morongo Valley Valley, but did not locate any sign of Lauren or any of her belongings. Like, any clothes, any shoelace, nothing.

B (93:53)

It's like she was just airlifted.

A (93:54)

Yes. Like the vanished. Which is. It's like. It sounds so crazy, but then it's like. Well, it's also this huge expanse of wilderness, you know, so it's like, you want to be like, oh, it must be foul play. But also, it could very well just be, like, the elements, you know?

B (94:09)

Yeah, it could be. I mean, yeah.

A (94:11)

Yeah. No way to know. Friends reported traveling extensively around the region. They would post flyers at gas stations, Any businesses they came across, Both in the low desert and high desert. They went all the way to San Diego to search for her because the previous week, I guess, she had mentioned wanting to go to the beach, and they thought maybe that's where she was headed. Nothing. Sheriff's officials stated publicly that they were following all leads and continuing to work, coordinate with family and friends, but nothing. They did seem to break this case open until October 9, 2021. And that is when they discovered human remains during a search. During a search in the open desert of yucca valley, Investigators located unidentified human remains in the rugged terrain. They were found in an area of yucca valley desert not far from where the earlier searches had been concentrated, Although we don't know. They have not publicly listed the. The coordinates, so we don't know the exact location, but the San Bernardino county sheriff's department announced that the remains had been found during operations related to the search for Lauren. But that identification would take some time. So at first, it's that kind of horrible waiting period that I imagine people go through of like, I want an answer, but, yeah, exactly. So. October 28, 2021. The San Bernardino county sheriff's department announced that the remains recovered on October 9 had Indee positively identified as those of Lauren Cho. The coroner division confirmed the identification and stated that the cause and manner of death were pending toxicology results and that no additional details would be released at this time. Law enforcement also stated that they had no reason to believe foul play was involved, Although they did not definitively rule it out, Depending on what further analysis would show. Show. So that's kind of where it stops. And that was in 2021. And I started researching, like, reasons why toxicology results wouldn't be publicly. Would. Wouldn't be made public. And I guess there are a variety of reasons, including, like, if they don't think it was foul play, they don't really have a reason to post it publicly, or if the family doesn't feel like they want to share that, then.

B (96:30)

Yeah, maybe they don't.

A (96:31)

Right. And if it's not. Not. And that would only, I guess, make sense if it were not foul play, because otherwise they would need to use that for some sort of a trial. But, yeah, there's it's just unclear. We just don't really know. Except we can assume that they've said they don't believe foul play was involved. And the family has essentially made a statement saying, you know, how deep their grief was, thanking the people who helped search for her shared information, supported the them. Her sister wrote that they were the luckiest to have had 30 years with Lauren and described the depths of collective sorrow that the family felt once they found out that she had indeed passed. She's remembered as just a really cool sister and friend, just a really beautiful soul. And as of October 2021, there really hasn't been much of an update. Cause and manner of death were pending toxicology at the time and no further details would be released unless, like, they needed to for some reason. So, yeah, we don't really know. There have been no arrests or suspects in connection with Lauren's death. As for Cody, he was never considered person of interest because he was with that big group and she walked away after an argument and he went with them to go look and there was just no way, you know. So, yeah, it's just. It's just really sad and too bad. And it's been cited, the story in conversation about media inequality and coverage of missing persons cases, especially involving women of color advocacy, has focused on the element of, like, she's more than just like a conspiracy or people. You know, I mean, it's hard to read even, like, even as someone who doesn't know these people, to see people saying, like, oh, she just, like, went off and killed herself or whatever. People just like, spout nonsense on the Internet as if, you know, they're contributing anything. And it's just really hurtful. The family has said, like, it's really hurtful.

B (98:30)

Yeah.

A (98:30)

To hear stuff like that. And so, you know, there's not really much more to go on at this point. But the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department does encourage anyone with additional info about Lauren's activities or state of mind on that day to contact their tip lines, although the case is largely treated as resolved regarding her remains. So, yeah, that's the story. And it's just like, you don't hear about these things. Things I haven't heard about this story before. And it's like four years later, you know. Yeah, it's just sad.

B (99:00)

And it's. It's one of those cases where you just hope that they held on to the right, what. Whatever evidence, future technology will be able to. To come up with.

A (99:10)

Yeah.

B (99:10)

Or the thing. You just gotta hope that there's better answers in the future.

A (99:13)

Well, maybe they have answers and the family's just like, that's the. You know, maybe they know she died of natural causes and they've just chosen to leave it at that, you know? Know.

B (99:22)

Yeah, Great point.

A (99:23)

Unclear, but yeah. Just really sad either way.

B (99:27)

Wow.

A (99:32)

I got a hankering for an Auntie Anne's pretzel. It's all this talk a mall World. I'm like, let me get back into mall world real quick. Avoid the real world and its problems.

B (99:43)

I was gonna say, do you need the van story to, like, bring some levity? But. Well, I still want to hold off on that because that's. It's.

A (99:49)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (99:50)

True crime in some ways.

A (99:51)

And I don't find that levity whatsoever. I was. I was ready to like, hella, hella rescue both of you.

B (99:58)

It was.

A (99:59)

Yeah, it was harrowing from a third party perspective, let alone a first person.

B (100:04)

Yeah.

A (100:04)

Oh, my God.

B (100:05)

It was. It was a doozy of a day. Okay, Annie ants. I don't. You don't strike me as an Annie and small person.

A (100:11)

I love the smell. I'm more of like, give me a big cook cookie.

B (100:15)

My hometown mall used to have a Wendy's in it. And that was my go to Wendy's.

A (100:20)

Interesting.

B (100:20)

And they had a. They had a pizza place that really rocked my. Until this day, I can't remember the name or I'd look them up.

A (100:25)

Oh, a Sabaro.

B (100:27)

It was not. Not a Sabaro. No.

A (100:30)

Oh, man.

B (100:32)

Well, anyway. Anyway, speaking of which, I guess I'm gonna go eat a pizza now.

A (100:35)

I am very hungry, so I'm gonna go eat. Well, well, thanks for listening.

B (100:40)

Thank you, everybody. I know. I'm sorry. I feel like this was just like interruption central today.

A (100:44)

I'm so, so to get a lot out of our systems. It's fine.

B (100:47)

Hadn't seen you in a little bit.

A (100:49)

There's a lot to discuss.

B (100:51)

Aye, aye, aye. Yes. Thank you, everybody. Go check out Patreon if you would like more of this. Go check out our YouTube. Go check out our social medias, Read our books. The end.

A (101:02)

We're everywhere and you can't escape us. So you're welcome for that.

B (101:05)

And that's why we drink limu imu. And Doug, here we have the limu emu in its natural habit, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

A (101:23)

Fascinating.

B (101:24)

It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com.

A (101:34)

Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings vary Underwritten.

B (101:38)

By Liberty Mutual Insurance company And affiliates excludes Massachusetts. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com specialoffer.