E463 The Santa Dilemma and Our Haunted One-Man Show

Summary

Episode Summary: "The Santa Dilemma and Our Haunted One-Man Show"

And That's Why We Drink, Episode 463 (December 21, 2025)
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz

---

Main Theme and Purpose

In this episode, Christine and Em balance cozy holiday dilemmas and dark, chilling true tales. The cozy comes from Christine’s struggle with the ethics of “the Santa lie” for her young daughter. The creepy emerges with Em’s deep dive into the haunted history of the Dumas Brothel in Butte, Montana—covering ghosts, murder, and the mayhem surviving in its shadowy halls. The episode features a blend of reflective personal discussion, advice-seeking, true crime storytelling, and paranormal investigation.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

---

Opening Banter & Personal Updates (02:12-09:56)

• Hosts exchange holiday greetings and update each other on life, weather, pet drama, and general mood.
  • Em mentions being tired and heavily invested in the show notes, despite planning a “quick episode.”
  • Christine reflects on parenting and raising her daughter, Leona.
  • Pet updates: Em plans a playdate for Hank’s possible dog sibling, reflecting on family, canine DNA tests, and quirky pet names.

Memorable Quote:
"I am truly running on steam here. I got barely any sleep. I got beyond invested in these notes." – Em (03:12)

---

Parenting Dilemma: The Santa Conversation (08:58-22:39)

• Christine’s Dilemma: How to talk about Santa with her daughter without feeling like she’s “lying.”
  • Struggles with her own past ("I felt very, like, misled and confused and, like, I really struggled with it." – Christine, 10:18).
  • Asks Em’s advice, noting the abundance of influencer and psychologist content on handling the subject.
  • They trade stories about their own Santa revelations (from art teachers and mean kids).
  • Em’s approach: let kids lead with imagination, answer with questions, and be honest when they’re ready for truth.
  • Christine vowing to handle it cautiously: “When they ask questions, just kind of suss out how ready they are for the answer.” (17:29)

Notable, Relatable Moment:
"If there are children in the vicinity who have some holiday magic, just change the episode, please, right now or pause it." – Christine, warning parents before Santa talk (08:58)

---

The Dumas Brothel: History, Crime, and Hauntings (28:09-87:14)

Historical Background & True Crime (28:09-47:12)

• Setting: Butte, Montana, 1890; Joseph and Arthur Nadeau open the Dumas Brothel, named for Joseph’s wife’s maiden name.
• Red Light District: Sex work was legal early on, contributing significantly to local economy. Brothel had three levels (luxury upstairs, mid-tier main floor, “cribs”/basement for miners).
• Economic Impact: Sex work was a stabilizing economic force; police often turned a blind eye.
• Illegality: Outlawed in 1917 (WWI-related), shortly later again in 1943 (WWII).
• Survival Tactics: Hidden basement, secret passages, fake refrigerators to hide undocumented workers.
• Drama & Death: Madams Eleanor, Bonita, and Ruby played key roles. Eleanor's mysterious death (possibly suicide or murder by Bonita), Bonita’s husband’s suspicious death.

Memorable Moment:
"At some point the brothers stopped working together. And Joseph, who’s the only brother you have to know the name of…" – Em (42:06, keeping the complex story organized)

Paranormal Unveiled (52:03-87:14)

• In 2012, Michael & Travis buy the brothel, intending to run a museum/Airbnb; Michael becomes obsessed, allegedly attacked by spirits.
• Paranormal TV Visits:
  • Dead Files: Amy Allan declares Michael is “Joseph reincarnated”—explaining his obsession and torment (58:41).
  • Ghost Adventures: Michael and friend Jenny are both “off,” with Zach Baggins genuinely unsettled. Michael’s issues may also relate to substance use; Michael later dies of overdose (62:11).
• Ghost Phenomena:
  • Shadow figures, icy blasts, hair twirling, being touched or pushed, nausea and time slips, apparitions of women and children, clear EVPs relaying disturbing or warning messages.
  • "People hear all kinds of voices, footsteps, thuds, people feel like they're walking through spider webs…They wake up…feeling violent and aggressive towards their friends." (75:14)
  • Presences identified include Eleanor (with suitcase), Bonita, children possibly sold or abandoned, and former clientele.
  • A haunting photo shared (83:07), described as “the scariest photo I have ever seen” (83:52), featuring a ghastly face superimposed over a ghost investigator.
• Zach Baggins’ Infamous "Experiment":
  • Hires women to dress as sex workers, leaves them alone in haunted rooms, encourages ghosts to “pick” one. Notably unnerving for both audience and "McKinley," one of the volunteers (66:31–69:52).

Notable Quotes:

• "Ladies are in your rooms now…You can choose which lady you want, go to the room you like, and you can touch the ladies if you like. You can do whatever you want." – Zach Baggins (67:35)
• "And you can go on tours and see it. So all of us to now say Fast forward to 2012 where it has been…" – Em (48:10, welcoming ghost-curious listeners)

---

Interlude: Real-Life Spooks (49:47–51:39, 87:22–90:15)

• While Em recounts hauntings, Christine’s own house seems haunted—doors slam during the recording, causing real-life panic.
• Christine investigates, confirms it’s not her husband or child, and returns frazzled.
  • "I'm still alive. I yelled hello. And then nothing happened." – Christine (49:53)
• Both reflect on dogs' lack of protective instinct and joke about the horror movie scenario.

---

True Crime: The Mushroom Murders of Australia (90:22-140:36)

Case Breakdown

• Erin Patterson, Victoria, Australia, July 2023:
  • Erin, recently separated, invites her ex-husband’s parents and his aunt and uncle over for Beef Wellington. Ex-husband Simon declines last minute and survives.
  • Guests all violently ill within hours; three die (Gail, Don, Heather), one barely survives (Ian).
  • Police rapidly suspect mushroom poisoning (death cap mushrooms); Erin gives inconsistent, suspicious answers (about dishware, mushroom sourcing, and her own health).
  • Evidence: Photos on a tablet of mushrooms on scales, dehydrator (dumped at landfill after the crime), web searches for “death cap mushrooms” and trips logged to mushroom-sighting locations.
  • Her story unravels—she feigned cancer to draw family together, lied about never foraging, and her prior attempt to poison her ex came to light.
• Trial: Overwhelming evidence (digital, physical, testimonial), Erin’s bizarre witness stand performance (fake tears, obvious lying, and ridicule over her “white pants” on a claimed diarrhea day).
  • Motive: Anger and resentment tied to inheritance, financial disputes with ex and his parents.
  • Convicted on three counts of murder, sentenced to life; currently appealing.

Memorable/Haunting Quotes:

• "In CCTV footage, you can actually see a nurse trying to stop her from leaving." – Christine (97:59)
• "She’s just convinced she’s outsmarted everyone, and it’s like…you have to be on a different planet really." – Christine (125:10)

Notable Moments

• Prosecution details are hilariously relayed: “She gave the police a phone that had the wrong SIM number in it… like… sorry, not the right phone. Yeah, it’s weird.” (117:51)
• Community sense of humor: “Coffee shops started selling mushroom tarts…” (120:43)
• Motive, ultimately: a mix of family betrayal, financial anger, and escalating, bizarre behavior.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• "I just got rabbit-holed into this." – Em, on research obsession (04:20)
• "I just feel so weird lying… Is it okay to lie? No, but in this case it is." – Christine, on Santa (15:51)
• "The place was a mess. The hats that hang on the walls were on the floor, lined up down the hallway…" – Em, on post-psychic visit mayhem at the brothel (78:11)
• "That's the Dumas Brothel." – Em, exhausted by the depths of the tale (85:54)
• "That photo alone makes me not want to visit. Like, it accidentally did backwards marketing…" – Em, on the ghost photo (86:47)
• "You don’t have to murder about it, you know, like, you don’t have to go that far." – Christine, on Erin’s family drama (127:06)
• “A mushroom grew in my yard yesterday.” – Em, immediately after the Mushroom Murders tale, blending the eerie with the absurd (139:34)

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Holiday & Life Banter: 02:12–09:56
• Santa Dilemma: 08:58–22:39
• Mid-Episode: Dumas Brothel History: 28:09–47:12
• Dumas Brothel—Hauntings & TV Shows: 52:03–87:14
• Real-Life Spooks at Christine’s House: 49:47–51:39
• True Crime: Mushroom Murders: 90:22–140:36

---

Takeaways & Listener Value

This episode embodies the ATWWD tone: candid, tangential, irreverent—yet deeply empathetic discussion of the real anxieties and amusements of life, followed by deeply researched, creeptastically detailed stories of the macabre. Both hosts open up personally (Christine’s parenting doubts, Em’s dog drama and vulnerability to haunting), and dive deep into stories sure to fascinate, unsettle, and resonate. Not to mention, moments of horror (a door slamming during the haunting tale, the chilling ghost photo) keep you on edge, whether or not you’re a believer. The story of Erin Patterson stands out as especially recent, detailed, and jaw-dropping true crime storytelling.

---

Why do they drink this week?
Em: For dog playdate jitters and haunted research-rabbit holes
Christine: For the "Santa situation" and existential parent anxiety

---

Merry Christmas! See you next week.

Transcript

[A]

You know, I love a cheesy holiday movie. Okay, but who is going to be putting these together if we don't have something like ZipRecruiter? Because to make these holiday favorites, it takes a team of talented people, from actors to editors. My favorite holiday movie being the Grinch from 1956. It took a lot of, you know, like, really obviously talented people to make that happen.

[B]

And when it comes to building a team that makes those things possible, whether it's for the entertainment industry or a wide range of other industries, you need to hire the right people. And the best way to do that is with ZipRecruiter right now.

[A]

You can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com Drink as you know, the best production of all, this show was also made Possible thanks to ZipRecruiter. Because in a very literal way, because Eva, our lovely Eva, that's how we found our. Our wonderful evil. We used our own free trial of zip recruiter and found Eva. And we'll never forget that. And it's no wonder. ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2. We proved it within 24 hours.

[B]

People within our lives. It's incredible.

[A]

Make your hiring a little merrier with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try ZipRecruiter for free.

[B]

ZipRecruiter.com Drink and again that ZipRecruiter.com Drink ZipRecruiter. The smartest way to hire.

[A]

Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry.

[B]

I almost couldn't breathe when I saw.

[A]

The discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.

[B]

Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.

[A]

1-800-Contacts. Christmas time is here.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

Oh, just so annoying. Wow. Anyway, merry Christmas.

[B]

Merry Christmas. Everyone, please stand by.

[A]

We have to step away and go get wine. Answer the door.

[B]

Oh, Christine.

[A]

Oh, Christine.

[B]

What'd they say? My captain. My captain. My Christine. My Christine.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

How you doing?

[A]

Listen.

[B]

I am.

[A]

Does that answer your question?

[B]

Yeah, out of 10. How are you feeling?

[A]

No, I'm good. I'm like a six or Seven. It's. The weather's gloomy. I'm just like, meh. You know, it's like cold, cold. I don't know. I'm okay. I'm okay. How are you doing, though?

[B]

I would love to trade weather with you.

[A]

You can have it.

[B]

I wish. I wish we could do that.

[A]

I.

[B]

How am I doing? I'm all right.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

I am truly running on steam here. I got barely any sleep. I got beyond invested in these notes. Oh, and of course it's always this way. I should. I should know by now. Almost 500 episodes in that especially because.

[A]

Last night I said, hey, tomorrow there might be a snow day. So I want to warn you in advance that it's like, we might not be able to record because Blaze is out of town and if I have a snow day, I'm stuck with Leon all day. I shouldn't say stuck with, but you know what I mean, like, stuck with the phone all day.

[B]

Don't worry.

[A]

And I said, so I'm not sure. And then I fell asleep before I saw your text that was like, oh, do you want to make the call now? And I was like, oops. So you didn't even know whether we were recording until like an hour before recording.

[B]

The mystery is what keeps.

[A]

But you really committed to the notes. Man. I was. I'm impressed. Okay.

[B]

Well, I was trying to think of something. This is what I was meaning by, like, it always happens this way is that I'm always trying to shoot for, like, I'm just gonna do a small. A short episode this time. So, like, let me just do like a quick round of notes.

[A]

That's how it's. That's how it begins.

[B]

And then it's always the longest set of notes I can find. And what's interesting is that this is a good sign. This is how you know it's gonna be a good story. Is that, like, I didn't even care if we were recording or not. I just got rabbit holed into this.

[A]

I love when that happens. Yeah.

[B]

But I really. There is way too much content, especially on YouTube, that I was. Good luck to me. It was never going to happen. Being able to see every single thing that's ever happened and nobody wants to hear me report on every second either.

[A]

I promise you there are those people out there.

[B]

But. Well, you. I'm. I'm gonna make people medium happy today because it's. It is a lengthy one, but it's all good. And actually I have YouTube to think because all of the sources were like, had nothing to do with ghosts. It was all history based. And only YouTube gave me what I actually wanted, which was finally. So anyway, I'm happy about that, but I am extremely t tired, so I am looking forward to my nap after this. And thank you for asking. The reason I drink. I don't know if you actually asked that or not yet.

[A]

I'm asking mentally in my head.

[B]

So, yeah, big news, everybody. I. We found one of Hanky's brothers and we have a playdate tomorrow.

[A]

How did I know that's what you were gonna say? You said big news and I went, oh, my God, Hank has a family.

[B]

Well, because I'm certainly not the one that's gonna be like, oh, you know, some other big milestone.

[A]

It's always gonna be. So I guess it has probably has to do with Hank. Wow, so sorry, say again? So you found Hank's brother and what did you say you're gonna meet him?

[B]

Yeah, he has a playdate tomorrow. We think it's his brother. I guess genetically there it could be his grandfather, his uncle, or a sibling.

[A]

Oh, my God. Hank found his grandfather, which, like, by.

[B]

The way, this dog does look a little older. It could be his grandfather.

[A]

I'm not sure. Maybe. Yeah. I love when they're like, oh, his half brother or cousin or I'm like, wow, this is quite a family tree that have.

[B]

Yeah, it is like an immediate family member. Oh, God.

[A]

I' found one for Gio. Like that was that close of a match. That's awesome.

[B]

Well, Hank has some breeding, like breeders, breeder breeding and his past. And so he has about 50,000 siblings. Oh.

[A]

But they.

[B]

He only has two who are local and one of them will not get back to me. So if your name happens to be Dash and you have a Bernese mountain dog named Oakley, it's mess.

[A]

I love that. I thought Dash was the dog. Okay.

[B]

I honestly don't know which one is.

[A]

Which, but I'm pretty sure they're both applicable.

[B]

Yeah. If your name's Oakley and you have a Bernie's mountain dog named Dash, I.

[A]

Mean, odds are could be the same. Yeah.

[B]

And if neither of you are related to my dog, the two of you should meet up.

[A]

Yeah, clearly.

[B]

But so this one. Oh my God, of course. I. I need to know his name for this exact moment. Please hold. His name is Herbie dog. The dog, not the person. And I messaged them.

[A]

Herbie and Hank. A Minecraft.

[B]

I know. Come on. So Oakley slash Dash. I don't know which one it is. That is like his little brother.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I actually don't know. On the website, it says that Oakley slash Dash is his, like, actual half sibling, but then it says that Herbie is his grandfather or uncle or sibling, and we're not sure. But Oakley slash Dash and Herbie are full blood siblings.

[A]

Oh, so then it would probably be a sibling. Yeah.

[B]

Right. It feels like there's a title there that is important.

[A]

I just feels like one of the gate program tests, like, if Herbie and his brother are related, our siblings.

[B]

And then they make you drink a weird pink drink. And.

[A]

Yeah, they're like, just. Now lay down on the ground.

[B]

Anyway, I'm very excited. I'm not totally loving the idea of, like, having to socialize with a stranger alone for, like, maybe one or two hours.

[A]

Where are you? Oh, a park. Okay.

[B]

And a park. But also, like an hour away. Because he lives. He lives like an hour and a half or two hours away. And so I tried to find a spot in the middle. So it's like a 45 minute commute.

[A]

So do you think they'll know they're related? It's like the dumbest question.

[B]

No, I'm wondering, too. That's half the reason I'm going. So I'm like, will they care?

[A]

I'm fascinated.

[B]

Or no. Yeah. Anyway, that's why I drink, because I'm trying to reunite my baby with his family.

[A]

Gosh, this is quite a situation. You should tick tock this so I can watch it.

[B]

Thank you. I. The other fun fact is, he does have a sibling in Norway. Would you like to know what that sibling's name is, Finn?

[A]

I have no idea.

[B]

The King of Hell.

[A]

Hello. What?

[B]

That's. What?

[A]

Are you serious?

[B]

Brother's names?

[A]

Yeah. What if that was the owner's name and you got him mixed up?

[B]

No. I guess in Norway there's a place called Hell.

[A]

That's right. There is.

[B]

So, yeah, they named their dog the King of Hell.

[A]

Well, in Austria there's a place called. So at least it's not the King of. That could be really bad.

[B]

That'd be if he was a real hump master.

[A]

I suppose. So. It'd be crazy.

[B]

Anyway, what do you drink, Christine?

[A]

Well, this is kind of like a. A doozy that I feel like people will have thoughts on or chime in on, but I'm feeling really conflicted about how to talk to Leona about. Okay, sorry. Alert, alert. If there are children in the vicinity who have some holiday magic, just change the episode, please, right now or pause it. Okay, I'm. That was your chance. I'M conflicted about how to talk about Santa with Leona, because I'm like, I just feel so weird lying, and I didn't think it would be this, like, hard, but I'm just really struggling because I don't feel good about it. I don't know. I'm. I'm interesting trying to find a. Find a middle ground, and I feel like.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

I think it must be, like, a personal thing. Like, I must. Like, I love the concept of Santa and Christmas, and, like, I want that magic to be real. But I think I was so taken aback when I realized my parents had been lying to me for years, and, like, they weren't especially conscientious of, like, how they handled it when I found out. And I felt very, like, misled and confused and, like, I really struggled with it. And so I think I'm really, like, trying to find a way to do it in the least damaging way possible, but I also don't want to be, like, you know, immediately I'm gonna ruin Christmas.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

So I'm struggling. I don't know what.

[B]

What has. What have you discussed with. With Daddy? O.

[A]

Well, we're just kind of on the. We're. I'm just trying not to push it too much. Like, we're just like, oh, yes, Santa will bring presents, and you can write a letter. Like, we've been.

[B]

Are you, like, gonna, like, all the usual, have her go meet Santa? Or, like, what if a stranger's like, oh, is Santa gonna. Are you gonna be good? Yeah.

[A]

And she's like, yeah, Santa already knows all the things. Like, and she's very. I don't know. Very. I think, yeah, she's very in the Santa zone already. I just worry that if she'd ever ask me any questions about it, that I'm gonna be like, I don't know what you say.

[B]

Figure it out quickly based on your anxiety.

[A]

No, no. I feel shame. I do not bring to the table unless I'm out of earshot. But I don't know. I mean, what is your take on it? Because I. I also don't want to not do Santa. Like, I don't want to do that, and I don't feel comfortable not doing that. And I think it's way more fun to have Santa. I love. I love the idea. I loved having Santa around growing up, you know, as a legend and stuff. But I don't know.

[B]

I just. I mean, you're coming to the person who is the least equipped with children, so I Don't know.

[A]

You just found your, your son's grandfather or something, so.

[B]

My father in law? Yeah, yeah, something like that. No, I, I don't know. We also like, I think probably reacted to things differently as a kid. Like when I found out about Santa.

[A]

Yeah. What happened?

[B]

Well, my art teacher told everybody.

[A]

What is wrong with people? Teachers of all people should not be the ones to be spoiling that.

[B]

I did think that was fucked up, but also I think she thought it was okay because we were like 11. Like by that point, like I think enough kids knew, but my mom just never confirmed or denied it for me. I think she wanted me to believe in the spirit.

[A]

And it was like I wanted my mom to play along a little longer. And she was like, no, obviously it's not real. And I was like, oh, okay. I thought maybe you'd like comfort me a little bit. But like, no, no.

[B]

My art teacher was a real jerk. She literally just, she had some point to make about Santa not being real. And then she caught herself and I remember her hesitating and then going, we all know Santa's not real, right?

[A]

And we don't want that. That's really bad.

[B]

Well, that confirms things. I mean, I was already suspicious. I. My mom has always said that by the time I was like six, I was already asking some like critical thinking questions there.

[A]

Right. Cuz it's like things start to, to be more apparent. Yeah. Or handwriting and.

[B]

Or like I, I think for me, I was able to grasp that like my parents were trying to do a, like a magical thing. Like I, I was never.

[A]

Well, that's what I wanted. I was like, at least can we play along? And my mom was like, nah, all right, it's over. And then she's like, but don't tell any of, don't tell your brother or any of your neighbors. So for like years I just had to pretend with them. And it was really. I was like, that's evil because just.

[B]

Me, everyone else got to have the magic.

[A]

I know. And I, My brother, it took him a few more years and I was like, I just, just, it sucked. And then she gave my bike to my neighbors and I had to pretend Santa got it for them and it was my bike. Anyway, there's clearly a lot wrapped up in this for me emotionally. And also the girl who told me is that girl I mentioned like a few months ago, I think, who like was said she was just pretending to be my friend all year.

[B]

And then like, you had a bad year that day.

[A]

It was a bad year. I was 8 years old and she was like. She's like, only idiots believe in Santa. And.

[B]

Okay, Christine, I think we need to look within. This is obvious. I think there are other contributing factors here as to why you had such a problem with Santa. I think people just were bullying the shit out of you.

[A]

I mean, yeah. I mean, yeah, that doesn't help, right? And then I went to my mom and she's like, duh. And I was like, okay, can nobody just pretend for a minute?

[B]

I think nobody just let you have a whimsical moment to save your life. And I think. I think that plays in the.

[A]

There's no magic, no whimsy. Yeah. And I, like, I want. But I. Here's what I struggle with. Like, I'm fine. Like, it's been fine just being like, oh, Santa comes and drops off your gifts. And like, that's totally fine. But I think the part I struggle with is, like, last year, Blaze did, like, footprints, you know, with like, some flower. Well, Geo licked most of them up, but, like, flower and like, like, yeah. And I'm like, I. It's cute. But then I'm like, is that, like, alarming? I don't know. Is that, like, too far of a lie?

[B]

I don't know. I. You are not wrong. I get what you're saying. And honestly, we all know that I only don't know answers with confidence because I don't have to know them. The second I had kids, I'd be like, what the do I do?

[A]

What do you do? I know.

[B]

I don't know. I don't think four year olds are aware of the creep factor. I think people had to, like, tell me line by line exactly how creepy was eventually.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it does sort of take a few decades to realize. Yeah.

[B]

I think if she. If I had to babysit and all of a sudden I'm getting questions about Santa, I would. And you couldn't make it on the phone for some reason. I'm just kind of making this.

[A]

You're calling the police? Like, yeah, 91 1.

[B]

I mean, I think I would, like, dip my toe into. I would, like, slowly test the waters on, like, how she's responding to the magic. And if at some point she went, that feels a little creepy, I'd go, yeah, yeah, he's up. Or he's actually not really.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he's. Don't even talk to him.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, I. I know a lot of people say, like, even try to, like, half truth it, and they're like, oh, he's all the magic of him.

[A]

I know. And that's hard.

[B]

I feel like that's even hard. Explain, because now you're turning into, like, some philosophical concepts versus you've been lying.

[A]

To me all these years. And it's like, yeah, technically. So it's like, is it okay to lie? No, but in this case, it is. And it just. I. I just. And I know I'm like, over analyzing it, overthinking it, and we keep it really chill for the most part, and it's not even been an issue yet, but she's just very quick. And so it like, I'm like, any day now, she's gonna be like, but hang on. Why does this paper. Why is this wrapping paper up in your office? You know?

[B]

Like, that was how my mom knew that I was on.

[A]

It's so hard to, like, hide things like that.

[B]

Because she was like. I was. I said something like, mommy, your wrapping paper is the exact same. Or Santa's wrapping paper is the exact same one at Target. Like, something like that.

[A]

Yeah, it's the same discount when we bought at Costco last week. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And my mom was like, oh, Santa has great taste. Like, something like that. But, I mean, I could. I could see, like, you letting her just have nothing but whimsy. And then when she starts asking questions, like, then just go straight. The honesty.

[A]

Yeah. Or to be like, just like the post I've read about it, which I'm so thankful now for, for creators and people online who, like, share stuff about this, like psychiatrists and psychologists and child psychologists and just people who are like, here is like, here are some appropriate things to say depending on the age. Here is, like, an appropriate response. And so that's been really helpful. And I don't want to, like, throw my mom totally under the bus. Like, she didn't know what to do, you know? No parents.

[B]

No.

[A]

Right. No parent does. And so. But I've been reading a few things, and I think the, like, best approach I've landed on is like. Yeah. When they ask questions, just kind of suss out how ready they are for the answer. Like, when I asked that question, I really wanted my mom to just be like, of course Santa's real. Just like. And I would have been like, few. Let me have another one year more year or something out of this, you.

[B]

Know, I think I would. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

[A]

I was just gonna say, I think that's what I'll do is just like, like, approach cautiously with whatever she brings and then, like, go from there. Yeah.

[B]

I so far, what I've seen you do with her is a lot of, like, letting her lead the imagination train of like, if she were to be like, oh, do you think there's other reindeer out there? You've done a lot of like, well, what do you think?

[A]

Like, yeah, that feels like the right. Yeah.

[B]

You're not really saying yes or no or whatever. She's just kind of making up her own story.

[A]

And then she's like, actually, I do know exactly the truth. And I'm like, okay. And she's like, there's 16 reindeer and five of them. I don't know. That she comes up with.

[B]

Do you live in terror that she might come home from school and say, this person says, Hannah isn't real now?

[A]

Like, you're like, yeah, she's such, like, a sweet little gentle preschool. I'm like, there's no way these. I mean, not no way. But I think in a few years maybe. But I think now there's not really. It would only be her recognizing, like, little inconsistencies, which is, you know, I mean, what it is what it is. But I think I hated just being also tasked with, like, now don't tell four of your closest friends and sibling for the next, like, five, six years. And I was like, what? Yeah, that feels like not my job, but okay, I wonder.

[B]

No, that's. That. I mean, again, just the. The context of what you went through in the exact same era of discovering the truth about Santa. It sounds like maybe that's all also at play, but I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, I. Yeah, sounds like it was.

[B]

A rocky road for you for a second.

[A]

Yeah, that girl is not nice, you know.

[B]

No, she sounds like a real.

[A]

She was a real, real. Tell you what, for an eight year old, especially, like, damn, girl. Oh, well, I was just pretending to be your friend. Why? Who says that?

[B]

You know, I had someone. I won't say when, but they referred to people as acquaintances based on location. And they would mean like, oh, I'm only friends with you because we live in the same area.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And would call them a balls. Acquaintance based on location.

[A]

What?

[B]

And, like, thought it was like a very, like, normal thing to say. I wonder if they thought it was like, a joke and I just wasn't picking up on that. But they seemed pretty serious about it. And now in hindsight, this was years and years and years ago before I knew about, like, neurodivergence or anything. I'm wondering if that was just like a very literal definition of, like, what our relationship Was.

[A]

And they're like, oh, I just made an acronym to make it easier to remember.

[B]

Yeah. In the moment, though, I was like, what a fucking mean thing to say.

[A]

Seriously.

[B]

But in hindsight, I'm kind of picking up some stuff. And I was like, I wonder if they just. Yeah, that was just their way of, like, putting things in categories of, like, oh, this is a friend from childhood. This is a friend in a ball. This is like.

[A]

This is in a ball. An abomination.

[B]

Anyway, I. Yeah, I. I think that's funnier, actually. But, no, I. I don't know why I said that. I feel like there was a reason.

[A]

Because some k. People are just, like, kind of cruel, and you're like, wait, what?

[B]

Yes, I. I was trying to. Trying to join in on, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've had friends who've also said things that were just like.

[A]

Was her name Olivia? Can you imagine? She's just still up to her old.

[B]

It's like she terrorized you too. Oh, my God.

[A]

She and I had a ghost club.

[B]

That sounds great, though.

[A]

I know it was until she said. I never believed any of that. I just was pretending to be your friend, and I was like, cool, cool, cool.

[B]

But at least she. And I mean, not at least. It sounds wildly manipulative that she knew exactly the way to sucker you into playing friends. Like, not even being friends.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The game of friends.

[A]

And it's because she for sure was in on it, too. She's so full of, like. We were both, like, so invested. And then these other girls were like, what's wrong with you guys? And she was like, yeah, Christine, you lose her? And I was like, what the hell? Yeah, that really sucked. But, oh, she was the one I wrote the note to the fake. The fake love letter. So it's all starting to piece together a little bit.

[B]

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. I would love a memoir. You let me know.

[A]

Anyway, yeah, somebody else has to write this because I'm not gonna remember.

[B]

Well, anyway, no. Thank you for feeling safe to break the Santa. You. I'm guarantee you're not the only person involved in this podcast.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen people posting about it and stuff, so I'm like. I'm. I wanted to. Yeah. Open it up. If anyone had thoughts or any creative angles or anything, I'll take.

[B]

I'll take the advice. Because if I ever become a parent, I certainly won't know what to do.

[A]

Well, you don't. You don't. You want to be careful with Hank. He's a smart one, too, you know.

[B]

He is. He knows up. I'm up to my wily ways. Yeah. And he's like, what's a brother? What do you mean? I'm gonna see him tomorrow? What's a grandpa? Well, I wish you well on your parenting journey, because that sounds like a. I could see why that would feel like something that you could, like, accidentally like her up for, like, miss, like.

[A]

Mess up the trust or something, you know? But, yeah, I know it's also years. Hopefully years down the line that it even comes up.

[B]

But, yeah, I don't know. I'm also. I'm not the best candidate because it didn't. I knew I was being bamboozled, and I was fine with it.

[A]

That's what I want. That's what I'm hoping. Like, I'm hoping that it's all becomes, like, oh, this is just part of my family's, like, tradition. And, you know, it's not like, a personal. Like, clearly, it was personal for me, but I think as long as it's not like, oh, my mom was just lying to my face.

[B]

Like, I think the slow burn realization for on my end was, like, I was aware that she was trying to do something. Like, there was good intention behind it. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah, I got pushed into the deep end and was like, what?

[B]

You sure did. Yeah. Oh, my God.

[A]

What's on your shirt? Oh, I think it says Eeyore. Oh, it's a dinosaur.

[B]

Is that from Red Rocks?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, cool. Okay, cool.

[B]

Yeah, it was when I went to Denver with Allison a few months ago.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

But I guess next to the Red Rocks, there's a different rock called Dinosaur Rock.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And so. And I really wanted to get a shirt while we were there because we were there for anniversary, and we had been to the Red Rocks together in the past, but more of an excursion with her family, who. This was right when I was discovering, like, my, like, pot situation, where, like, I was not. I was feeling I was gonna pass out all the time. I was, like, rocking a cane for a second. Fun fact. It has pretty much almost gone away except for when I'm waking up, so.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

In case anyone's wondering, the. My cardiologist said it was probably, like, a symptom of long covet, and it seems to be going away. Wow. So. Yay. But of course, after I ordered, like, a custom cane on Etsy, you know.

[A]

There will be use for that, and we all know it.

[B]

I don't know. Anyway, where were we? Oh, so we went. Her parents wanted to, like, walk up and down these Incredibly long stairs when I'm already at an elevation and I'm having a breathing problem. So I. I was like, maybe. Maybe next time we come, it'll be a little better for me. And so we happened to go, and there was, like, they were playing Legally Blonde there. So I wanted to go to the merch line, but there was literally thousands of people there. And I was like, I'm not doing it. So I bought this online.

[A]

Oh, that's cute. Yeah, I like that.

[B]

Anyway, sorry for the. You didn't ask. I just kind of kept going back.

[A]

I did. I said, what's on your shirt, Eeyore?

[B]

And you said, no, you said, what's on my shirt? I should have just gone a dinosaur and then cut it.

[A]

No, that's not enough. You know that's not enough.

[B]

Well, since you just can't get enough of my voice, Christine, I have a very good story for you that I'm personally excited about. I don't know what anyone tell. Did we have to. Are there any updates? Anything we have to say?

[A]

Probably. What day does this come out? I'm just curious.

[B]

Before Christmas, I think the week before Christmas.

[A]

Oh, I think. No, this one's for next Sunday, the 21st.

[B]

So the beginning of Christmas week.

[A]

Christmas week.

[B]

Dare you, or is this not the Christmas episode?

[A]

Christmas time is here. I even promised everyone in the. In the makeup. Oh, no. I can't believe I forgot. Okay, I'll do it again because next week it'll be too late. Oh, okay.

[B]

Would you like to do it now, here, and we'll splice it to the front of the episode?

[A]

Great idea.

[B]

Okay, I'm. I'm all ears.

[A]

Okay. M. And their Hollister perfume or cologne or whatever.

[B]

I knew we were going there.

[A]

I'm sorry. I met Hanks, actually, because it is Hank's signature scent. It is hard to pick, like, a signature scent. And then when you do, it's like, it's so expensive. So you really have to commit. This has been solved by micro perfumes. It's really painful when you have to, like, spend a lot of money, and then you realize, like, I don't like it as much as I thought I would. No more of this roulette, okay? For just a few bucks, you can test drive the real deal. They've got Dior, Tom Ford Creed, authentic designer sense without the full bottle gamble.

[B]

Yeah. My biggest problem, as you, if you might have heard in recent episodes, is that Jay Hollister was my sense. And now they don't make it anymore. So now I need A new scent. And luckily, with Micro Perfumes, I. I get to give that a little try. Because your scent introduces you before you even say a word. And if you want confidence in a bottle like I used to have with my charming Hollister, may he rest in peace, you know, Micro perfumes might be for you if you're trying out a new scent.

[A]

Yes, they have over 500 fragrances to choose from. And it's just a few bucks per sample, so you don't feel like you're, you know, wasting your money. So why commit blind to a 200 bottle? Find your scent Soulmate today and get up to 60 [e-mail] drink.

[B]

That's microperfumes.com drink for up to 60% off. Micro perfumes, real scents, no regrets.

[A]

Hello. Finally. It worked. I've been screaming to this cavern for days. Welcome back. You may have heard of HelloFresh. We love this stuff. They're the number one meal kit in America. And in my house and this winter, they're serving up even more to love. Because this ain't the hello fresh you remember. Instead, they've doubled their menu, which means.

[B]

It'S now hello, hello, Fresh. Fresh.

[A]

Oh, God, the echoes are gonna go on forever.

[B]

Yeah, they're the number one meal kit in America, making home cooking easier with chef crafty recipes and fresh ingredients delivered straight to your door. You know, I love a product that shows up right at my door so I never have to leave. It is incredible. And yeah, they have doubled their menu. You can now choose from a hundred options each week, including new seasonal dishes and recipes from around the world. So you can dig into bigger portions that'll keep everyone satisfied. And there's nothing I love more than besides delivery to my door. Is a bigger portion.

[A]

Yeah, bigger portions. And then like getting to pick your meals every week. It really is one of the favorite parts of my week. The best way to cook just got better. Go to hellofresh.com drink10fm now to get 10 free meals plus a free breakfast for life.

[B]

One per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. And new subscribers only. Varies by plan.

[A]

That's hellofresh.com Drink10FM to get 10 free meals plus free breakfast for life.

[B]

Ghosts. Let's go. This is the Dumas Brothel.

[A]

Never heard of it.

[B]

Me either. Well, I can't say that anymore, but 20 hours ago.

[A]

And now you know everything.

[B]

And now I know certainly an insane amount. I actually, I. For someone who likes to yap and tries to fit as much in as possible. I had to redact quite a lot because I was just trying to keep the time. But there's a lot going on here, so this. Hang on. Did I already fuck up? No, I didn't. Okay, great. This is in Butte, Montana. Montana is on my list of places I still need to visit, so this might be an option. And we are in 1890.

[A]

1890.

[B]

Okay. Say it with me. You know it.

[A]

Well, good year.

[B]

It was founded by two brothers named Joseph and Arthur Nadeau. And weirdly enough, it's a brothel, and they named it after one of their wives.

[A]

That's so romantic.

[B]

And then imagine the brothers being like.

[A]

How about we name it after your wife?

[B]

Yeah, well, so apparently her maiden name was Dumas, but my first thought was, like, they named it after their wife, and it's Sahelan's, like, dumbass. I was like, oh, yeah.

[A]

I hadn't even thought of that.

[B]

Extra mean. Yeah. I can't imagine Blaze opening up a brothel and calling it, like, the Schiefer.

[A]

And I was like, why would you do that? And he's like, because my brother suggested it. I'm like, what? You guys are weird.

[B]

We're actually in cahoots.

[A]

That's super weird, guys.

[B]

Don't you feel so lucky to be a part of this? So the brothers. Let me charge my laptop real quick. The brothers were big shots in town. They owned a lot of companies, especially a lot of brothels. This was not the only brothel in town, certainly, and it was not the only brothel in town that they owned. But fun fact, this is the one that we're talking about. They. They had a lot of brothels in this area, and this area was known as the kind of red light district of Butte, especially in the 1890s. I think sex work was illegal, was legal at the time, and so there was really no hiding it. And there really wasn't any, like, moral higher ground if you weren't involved in it. It was kind of a very common business. Okay, fun fact for later. At some point, the brothers stopped working together. And Joseph, who's the only brother you have to know the name of, he ended up owning the brothel on his own until he died at 77. Okay, so the only name you got to know here so far is Joseph was one of the owners. Got it after all of the brothels, like, different expansions throughout the year because it started smaller than it grew, then it grew, then it grew. The building ended up with 43 rooms and still stands today and has all 43 rooms. So during its heyday, because this is the most fun part of any brothel story is like the heyday. The. The heyday facts, I guess. But during its heyday, women were servicing. This is so yuck. Servicing up to 50 to 60 men each day per person. Each 50 to 60. The original cost at the time when they started the sex work at the brothel was the 50 cents each per. Per 10 minutes. Okay, I should have done the math. I did other math later for you. I should have done that. It was not our equivalent of 50 cents. It was actually probably a solid pay. Right. And then this brothel lasted almost 100 years. And by the time the brothel ended, sex workers were getting 20 a pop instead of 50 cents a pop.

[A]

Whoa, wait, so till like 1980. Wait, is that right? 1990. Oh, my God.

[B]

We'll get there.

[A]

So, okay.

[B]

But it started with 50 cents for 10 minutes. And there was some note that I found in one of the sources were like the average time between a guy getting into the brothel, doing his business and leaving was eight minutes. Why do we know that? First of all. But in and out, a lot of the sex workers kept diaries. And the diaries were found, so.

[A]

Oh, wow. Oh, my gosh. Treasure trove.

[B]

So this was another area. I just talked about a mining town recently. This is another one of those. And it was actually also a copper mine. But the copper miners in the area were some of the biggest clientele here. And they all worked three different shifts at the mines. And so the women also worked three different shifts. So that way the brothel was. Okay. A constant stream of revenue, if you will.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They also catered to wealthier clientele on different floors. Basically the level that you were on was the quality of service, I suppose, and the. The cost of the night. So the upper floor was for the wealthiest clients. The next floor down, which was like the. I don't know, ground floor. I don't. Depending on who's listening. The lobby, the main floor, that was kind of mid tier pricing. And then in the basement were the cribs, as they call it. Whoa. And it was called the cribs because it was so small down there that basically only a crib could fit.

[A]

What a weird, like, measurement to use. A crib.

[B]

Call it.

[A]

Anything of all things.

[B]

Anything else. A wagon.

[A]

Anything. A. Yeah, wagon. That's a good one.

[B]

So a wheelbarrow.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Trust me. I. I was like, crib is wild choice. Weird. The rooms in the basement were called cribs. This was also the area that had the worst conditions. This Was kind of the area where a lot of the miners would come in from. They actually ended up creating their own door down in the basement. So you didn't even have to go through the front door to get service here. You could just go through the back alley, come in through the back, do your service, do your stuff. As long as you were fine to pay the lowest price and have the lowest quality of experience, probably with, quote, the yikes. Lowest quality of woman they could find or something. Or whoever's easiest. I don't know, whatever gross phrase they could come up with. And then you could leave. And you've never even seen the main floor of the building.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so even an entrance. Yeah. Private entrance.

[B]

Yeah. And I guess a lot of the brothels, I mean, this was the red light district. So a lot of the buildings were just brothel after brothel after brothel. And a lot of them had a back door like this that all opened up until the same alley, which was called Pleasant Alley.

[A]

Oh, God, of all weight names.

[B]

I know at some point Pleasant Alley was changed to Venus Alley. So if you live in the area, that's what I'm talking about.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

But it was also like a really dangerous alley because it was where all of the kind of, you know, where you were going to do illegal, nefarious things. And apparently the women would have to advertise their work experience. Basically, they were walking resumes. So a lot of them would do the. What you've seen in movies, like leaning over the balconies pretty much naked to like, to entice. Come on in. Yeah.

[A]

Clients tell. Okay.

[B]

Anyway, the. The brothel itself was in fact the longest operating brothel in the country. And it closed in 1982, which sounds crazy. And it was around 65 years after sex work was illegal.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So it was doing some sneaky stuff.

[A]

All the way before.

[B]

Like I said earlier, this was actually a very common business early on, especially in this kind of area where a lot of the clientele were kind of minors and they. I don't. This was just like an easy place for it to happen. And also as an area that required some version of revenue going through their economy and sex work did. What's the word I'm thinking of? It did contribute. Bolster. Thank you. It did bolster the economy. Apparently a lot of the women would, you know, they were responsible for dry cleaners and apothecaries where they needed to get medicine after their nights. So it was. It was kind of holding the area together. And so even as it became less and less moral of A thing no one ever pooped.

[A]

And like, the people you know, everyone knows someone who's participating. So it's like, at a certain point, who's going to tell on who? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And there. Because it was a mining town, I wish I knew the source that I read, but a lot of women who were doing it were. They also were single women because their husbands worked in the mines and then they would die, and so they needed a way to live afterwards. So there was a lot of reasons around why this was such a solid thing in the area. But in 1917, sex work became outlawed for the first time. Do you know why I didn't know this? I think once I tell you, seven.

[A]

World War I, I have no idea.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So. Well, so they didn't want the soldiers to get STIs and be unable to fight in battle. So that's the only reason why sex.

[A]

Oh, they're like, actually, we have one more, Slightly more elevated purpose, slightly more urgent purpose for these men, which is going to get killed. So we need them at their fighting fit.

[B]

At their fighting fit. So this is when businesses had to start getting sneakier with their kind of, like, wheelings and dealings. But for a long time, police knew about it anyway and they ignored it. Again, mainly because sex work was a huge part of Butte's economy. One example of how dependent the county was or the area was on their money coming in was that one year, copper prices went up, which meant miners pay went up. They all got raises by, like, 25 cents. And that alone added $6,000 then, or almost a quarter million dollars now to Butte's economy.

[A]

Jesus. Oh, my God. Okay. Wow.

[B]

That much more money went into sex as soon as people got, like, a quarter of a quarter for a raise. Right. So this. This town was trying to keep the sex work, you know, alive as long as I could because it was doing.

[A]

As stable as possible.

[B]

Yeah. Another reason the police ignored what was going on at the brothel was because a lot of the madams would pay them off. They would have these, like, fines were like, if you pay this fine, then.

[A]

We'Ll walk away and we'll just ignore it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay. Some cops who didn't play that way and actually did try to do raids on the place found their cop brethren.

[A]

Inside and were like, this is awkward. The captain's here.

[B]

Time to go.

[A]

That's what I picture in, like, the HBO version of this.

[B]

Of course, that was my first thought, too. I was like, I wonder if they're, like, keeping it under wraps. Because I probably go here and they're free.

[A]

Yeah, I think some of them.

[B]

If it's this normalized, I can't say people I know wouldn't be going if it was this normalized. It just.

[A]

Your. A. Balls. What are they called?

[B]

My balls. Yeah. No, I just. I imagine if it's that normal, like, of course everyone's doing it, you know. So anyway, a lot of people would try to. A lot of cops would try to do raids on them anyway when they were not of that world. And the sex workers had a way around that because they had. Not only were they doing illegal activities, but they had some immigrants who hadn't had their papers filled out yet or anything like that working for them. I think there's. There's at least two or three people I read about that worked here and were always afraid of being deported. And so one of the ways that the sex workers helped them was that if there was a raid, they made fake refrigerators in the kitchen that were just basically boxes. Like, just. Then they would just put them in the box. And so, like, a cop would never think to go look in the fridge for people. And it was completely hollowed out, so they could just stand in there. But it looked like a freezer and a fridge door. And they would put a fake broken lock on the fridge door. So that way, if the cop tried to yank it and it wouldn't open, they could be like, oh, yeah, we haven't gotten around to fixing the latch yet. It just doesn't open. But it was.

[A]

And the person inside is like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[B]

Well, it was a full door, and on the inside, it locked, like, three different times so they could lock themselves in. And it had air holes and everything, so they could be there as long as they needed to. So, yes, the.

[A]

And it was a refrigerator. So there's, like, pudding and all sorts of produce next to you.

[B]

Unfortunately, no. It literally looked like a movie fridge. Like, there was nothing in there. It was. You crawled in and just stood there. Like, there was no.

[A]

So creepy.

[B]

There was no appliances in there.

[A]

It was just clever.

[B]

It was super clever. So just another way that, like, sex work was, like, not only helping the. The county or the area, but, like, their literal staff. Like, yeah, it was just a big communal space. I know it's kind of, like, weird to say, but it's true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So anyway, all that to say it was illegal since 1917. They really cracked down in 1943 because of World War II. So both World wars are Responsible for this. So then they had to get even sneakier. They renamed themselves a hotel instead of a brothel, or I think it was a boarding house that they renamed themselves to. And then they sealed off all of the, like, secret passage, back alley doors and things like that. It actually is said that they also sealed off the basement entirely, which is very interesting, which I will get to in a second. But just know that they, in theory, sealed off the bottom. And so, like, it wasn't touched since, like, the 40s or 50s.

[A]

Spooky.

[B]

And then it was reopened.

[A]

Spooky. I wish I were there for that. Oh, my God. I wish nothing more. It would be my dream to go, like, open those tunnels up.

[B]

I. It. The tunnels are still, like. They look like the. The walls we were not allowed to go back into at the Sally house. Like, they're just like, kind of, like, dirty and old and, like, untouched and like, you couldn't even climb with the.

[A]

Walls in the basement, you mean?

[B]

Yeah, the ones that climbed through. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, the ones. Oh, right. The foundation of the home. Yeah, yeah, That's. That looks so. It looks like my basement, basically. Like, just creepy, like, little pathways and dirt floors. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. You don't want any of it. It looks.

[A]

I mean, I do personally, but you don't.

[B]

So I will watch you have a great time.

[A]

Yeah, you can watch my GoPro footage afterwards.

[B]

So the last part of the history I'm going to get into is that there were a lot of madams that ran the brothel throughout the years. There are some significant ones that you do need to know. So I'm just going to only tell you those because I just.

[A]

Yeah, Give me the top tier.

[B]

Thank you, madams. And if you need to write this down, I am about to say a lot of names. And you don't have gargoyles like I do, so I don't.

[A]

And I'm really disappointed I haven't gotten some by now. Okay, here we go.

[B]

Okay, so the first one, there's Eleanor.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so basically, she was one of the Madams during the 50s. She falls in love with a guy. This is the story, at least that she was gonna fall. She fell in love with a guy. She was gonna leave the industry. She was gonna stop her job as a madam. She was just gonna have a new life with this.

[A]

She was done with this life. Okay.

[B]

Done with this life. Exactly. Leave it behind her. But then she had her. At least, how the story goes, she had her suitcase ready. Her boyfriend was supposed to pick her up that day and take her away from this town, and he never showed up.

[A]

Tale as old as time.

[B]

Jilted bride. I swear.

[A]

I know. Every time.

[B]

And so the next day, you know, as this. The story seems to go, is that she was found dead in her room.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Now, the thing is, she was found dead in her room. Some people say she died by suicide, but some people say that the woman who found her, whose name was Bonita. Okay, there you go. Bonita found her. And the autopsy report said that Eleanor died of natural causes, Like a coronary issue or something. But she was incredibly young. She shouldn't have totally. That shouldn't be how she have gone.

[A]

And the timing is pretty weird.

[B]

Yeah. And exactly. It's very interesting that Bonita is the one that found her, because as soon as she died, Bonita stepped up and became the next madam. Immediately moved in with her husband. Immediately started driving Eleanor's car. Immediately started using her, moved in with Eleanor's husband. No, no. Sorry, Sorry. That's crazy. No. Moved in with her own husband.

[A]

Moved in, bringing her husband along. Okay. I was like, oh, that was getting real dark.

[B]

Okay. That's insane. That's like soap opera.

[A]

She was her twin. Her evil twin.

[B]

She actually peeled her face off, and she was Eleanor. But so she started using all Eleanor's. She moved straight in. And then she even tried to, like, provide evidence that said, like, no, no. Eleanor wanted me to have all these things. She. We had had discussions where she was going to, like, I was gonna.

[A]

I guess she probably put someone in place, like, after when she was gonna leave. Right.

[B]

She didn't. Her name was, I think, like, Gene or something.

[A]

Oh, a different person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, no. Okay, this is starting to get fishy.

[B]

Yeah. So it ended up being proven that Eleanor. I don't know about proven, but there was other evidence against Bonita's. Evidence that said Eleanor wanted to actually sell everything and not let anyone inherit any of it. And the next person who was going to be a madam was this other woman that Bonita stepped in front of and got in the way. So interesting that all of this happened and she's the one that found her and could have made up the story. We. Maybe there was no boyfriend with a. And she had a suitcase and she was gonna go run away. Like, maybe she just there and got killed.

[A]

Oh, interesting. So we're hearing all this from Bonita.

[B]

Yes. So she could have died by suicide, could have been murder. We don't know.

[A]

But she was really coincidental. Coronary issue. Or maybe she was so upset, it, like, triggered A heart attack. I don't know.

[B]

On top of that, what's interesting is that the other big death that happened here was Bonita's husband, also found by.

[A]

Bonita, not to be confused with Eleanor's husband, like I. Like I did for a moment. Okay, good.

[B]

No, he was found at the bottom of the stairs with a broken neck. But his cause of death at the autopsy had a question mark at the end of it because even the mortician or autopsy guy, he was unsure. Things didn't.

[A]

The question mark is wild on an official document.

[B]

It's like broken neck, question mark.

[A]

Oh, that's. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Or whatever the reason was. I. I don't tell it, but it. So I guess they thought that the broken neck, it. The stairs were not steep enough for him to have broken his neck that way. So there was talk that his neck was broken previously and then he was thrown down the stairs by something.

[A]

It look like an accident. Okay.

[B]

And of course, he was found by Bonita, who also found the only other dead person.

[A]

Bonita.

[B]

Bonita. Bonita. Bonita. So he. Yeah, so that's interesting. Anyway, she became one of the next madams. And after she ended up stepping down, came along a woman named Ruby. You don't need to know anything about Ruby, except that she was involved in a robbery at some point here. And she was the last madam. She was the madam until the 80s. But after the robbery, really trying not to get into more drama, but they ended up closing the place. They discovered too much after the robbery. They were like, you're obviously still running a brothel. It's the 80s. Goodbye.

[A]

Yeah, this is actually. We're in a new era now, so.

[B]

Yeah. So just to keep it short and tight, that's what we're going to go with. So in 1982, the brothel officially closed and it turned into a museum. It had a bunch of restorations done to it to like, try to preserve it. And during these restorations, the whole basement, or chunks of the basement were unsealed and they found all of the stuff that was original from 1943 all the Way down to like cigarette butts on the nightstand table.

[A]

Oh, it was just sealed right off. Oh, my God.

[B]

Condoms and coins. There was glasses still with alcohol dried into it. There was clothes.

[A]

Imagine just like leaving your drink for a minute and then it's like, oh, no, it's actually going to be there for another 40 years. Yeah, touched. That's crazy.

[B]

There was like a masquerade mask that if someone was into that, a lot of the stuff People found in walls. Like they found like matchbooks and like, and clothes and the walls and all of it is still down there. It literally just looks like a shrine. It's.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. And you can go on tours and see it. So all of us to now say Fast forward to 2012 where it has been. The guy who's owned it has been trying to do restorations and turned into a museum. He ends up selling it to a couple named Michael and Travis. And they also wanted to help turn it into a museum and a gift shop and an Airbnb girl. Did Michael walk by? What happened?

[A]

Just now a door just slammed at my house and Blazes on a trip and I'm like, it happened twice. And I was like, I heard you making noises and I was like, oh, it's just the cats. And then the door went, bam. And now. And he's. Now he's pacing the room and I'm getting freaked out. Geo. Maybe Blaze came back.

[B]

Yeah, maybe he's. Exactly. Maybe Leona actually grew up 20 years immediately and she's just walking around.

[A]

Please hold. Yeah, please go viral if I die.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

Make the most of my death.

[B]

I certainly hope to. Don't worry. Good luck.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Why hello? One way ticket to a not surviving the horror movie. How. At what point do I decide that she didn't survive this and now it's just a one man show? I was hoping for some like remote commentary from the other room through the hall, but I'm not even hearing her. Oh my God, is it her? Oh, thank God.

[A]

Well, I'm still alive. I yelled hello? And then nothing happened.

[B]

We heard. I was like, that's literally the first thing you don't do in any horror movie.

[A]

And like, why? I don't know why. I just thought maybe Blaze came home.

[B]

I understand like rationally why someone would say hello, but also like the other option is that a person you don't want in your house and now they.

[A]

Know you know they're there. Yeah, yeah, really dumb. And also I was like thinking, I will say sometimes when I yell at the cats, they come like running by cuz they're like. So I thought maybe I'll yell hello and they'll like come scuttling out of the room. But it was just silent.

[B]

So I don't know if it happens a third time, we're. I'm out of here.

[A]

If it happens the third time. Yeah, something's gone, Arai and I need to figure out what's happening.

[B]

Did it sound like aggressive or like cuz It's. Could one of the cats have just bumped into a door?

[A]

That's what I'm wondering. But I looked at all the doors I could find, and nothing seemed, like, closed or even leaned closed. I don't know. My doors here are still just, like, staring down the stairs.

[B]

Okay. My doors here are pocket doors. So, like, if they move, I'm for sure.

[A]

Oh, that's gonna. That means, like, the earthquake is so bad that the house is, like, tilted and sliding, which, like, honestly, not unheard of, I would imagine, in la, but, no, I'm sure.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

Well, it's either. I mean, nobody's on my doorbell camera, so it's either a ghost or somebody's been living in the walls.

[B]

I. I am. I don't. That sounds horrible. Well, that was protecting me.

[A]

Not really. He followed me downstairs with his tail between his legs.

[B]

That's what I thought. Yeah. Someone at the dog park was like, would Hank protect you? And I was like, literally, not a chance. Not a chance.

[A]

I don't believe until I witness it with my own two eyes. I don't believe any dog would do that. Even though I know for a fact there are dogs that are, like, very productive. Gia would be like, oh, no, she died.

[B]

Mine is gonna go back upstairs. He would help. The. The. Yeah.

[A]

I feel like you brought snacks. Oh, yeah. Let's kill him.

[B]

Couldn't. I had a better plan myself. Yeah.

[A]

I'll hop into your car. I'll wait there.

[B]

Well, so. Okay. So we were at. They unsealed it and doing my dream.

[A]

I want to know all about it. I want. Yeah.

[B]

And there's just a whole bunch of cool stuff down there. But in 2012, a new couple owned the place to continue renovating.

[A]

Michael and Travis.

[B]

Michael and Travis. And they wanted it to be a gift shop. They wanted to turn into an Airbnb. But the spirits were not kind to this couple. And you tell me. Well, don't tell me what you think yet, but be aware of Michael and Travis. They are. Michael, in particular, is a big character here who, by the way, didn't see a single lick about Michael on my reading journey, but on my watching journey.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So the couple in general, like, do not get mentioned at all. And then all of a sudden, like, every TV show they were. Were involved in or there was a quote from them or something. And so I was shocked that this didn't get mentioned a lot. Although. Well, we'll get there. I. There's too much to go through. So Michael and Travis, they want to turn this into an Airbnb. The spirits were not kind to them. Basically, Michael was. It seemed that he was the major victim to a lot of the dark energy here. He would talk about how he was constantly feeling like he was being choked by something here. How he would get shoved onto the ground, how he literally would get lifted off the ground and slammed down into the floor. He would go into the basement as little as possible. Because I haven't really talked a lot about the basement, except that it got unsealed. But that area is certainly the darkest, creepiest.

[A]

I can only imagine. Especially if it was like the most efficient part of the building. And they're just like getting people in and out through a secret door. Like, through a secret door.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Private door.

[B]

And it was kind of like the grote est area. Area.

[A]

Cribs.

[B]

The cribs. And that was also the area that was sealed off. I mean, it was literally. It's like opening a jar. And I mean, it's just. It feels like now we're messing with.

[A]

People'S like, half finished drinks and stuff. I mean, it's just really creepy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're like Airbnb potential.

[B]

Like, why don't you go sleep in a crib where a bunch of women had to sleep with 60 men each a day for.

[A]

They were very creative. I gotta give them that. Yeah, very entrepreneur attitude here.

[B]

I mean, you buy a building, it's got 43 rooms. I do see how it's a thought in 2012.

[A]

Like, that's ahead of the Airbnb curve. I would say that's like early days for Airbnb. That's very, very creative situation. Oh, did you say BNB or Airbnb at the time?

[B]

Bnb. But I'm sure it was going to become an Airbnb as technology.

[A]

Got it. Okay. I thought they were like, let's get this thing on verbo. Wow. They really. Okay, so they want to make it like a bed and breakfast type Bed and breakfast. Okay, got it, got it, got it.

[B]

But Michael is really noticeably going through what. What he thinks is like some sort of.

[A]

Through it.

[B]

It. Going through it to a point where he is the topic of multiple ghost TV shows that come to film here. Because he seems so obsessed and weirdly attached. Like, kind of in the way that you always hear people saying they're like, oh, they were attached to this building and they refused to leave. And they were acting really anxious and panicky. When you're watching the episodes, he looks freaked out. Like he is acting very odd. Oh. So the first show I watched was Dead Files, and that's when there's the. The paranormal investigator and the private eye. And they both.

[A]

I remember this. I think this episode.

[B]

So basically, Michael's friend calls them for helping. Like our friend Michael lives here. He is weirdly obsessed with this broth. Refuses to leave. He believes it's his duty to be here. He has some weird attachment, but every time he leaves the building, he acts totally normal. But when he's here, it's like super frenetic and odd. He's, like, very uptight and, like, controlling and freaked out by everything he has. Time slips where all of a sudden he doesn't know where he is. He feels total anxiety, but he also can't leave. And the psychic Amy identifies there being an older male landlord, which is. Was probably Joe, the guy I want you to remember, because he. He. At some point the brothers broke up and he was the only one who.

[A]

Oh, Joseph, yes.

[B]

Okay. Who owned this place until he died. And so. And then she ended up describing this guy that she was seeing in all of her visions.

[A]

Oh. And then she does, like a sketch artist and it's like, yeah, I love that show.

[B]

And she did weirdly describe a picture of Joe or Joseph, but she said that without knowing any information about this place, just walking in, she said there's an older male landlord here who's involved in illegal activities. He likes to hurt, choke and punch people. He is seen as a dark mist down here. And he's very educated. He's rich, he has white hair. He built the literal building we're in. He's disgustingly greedy. And then she says she also senses women down here being very sexual. And then she said, I sense, quote, drug dealers, kid sellers and pimps.

[A]

Kid sellers. Oh, God.

[B]

So, fun fact, there was actually a woman that was known in this area and she was in the red light district, so where she ran essentially a back alley abortion clinic. Because.

[A]

Okay, I mean, I guess that goes hand in hand with something like this.

[B]

Yeah, sure. And she actually ended up having three manslaughter charges for botched abortions and the women dying. But there were other times where she would. Said the women wanted to deliver their babies to full term and she would help deliver the babies, but she would tell them that their babies were still born and then sell.

[A]

Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. That's sick.

[B]

Up to like 30 babies. That happened for like 500 at the time. So. So it's weird that she picked up on that energy too. And a lot of people sense children down here. And don't know why, but.

[A]

Oh, yeah, because it doesn't seem like there would be any reason for children.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of, like, yanking on your pant leg and all that. And they think that the kids just grew up here around it if they had nowhere else to go because their mom was working here or living here. So anyway, at the end of the show, Amy. And by the way, the private eye seems to have, like, been able to evaluate all of this stuff. At the end, though, Amy hears Michael talking about his obsession with this house. And then she finally sees a picture for the first time of the guy she was describing. And it was this guy Joseph, who built the building from the very beginning and was the original owner of the brothel. And says that Joseph and Michael, the current owner, look very similar and believes that Michael is Joe reincarnated. And that. Yes, that's what I was also doing at 2 in the morning.

[A]

And on what. I don't remember this.

[B]

And that. Their souls were, like, weirdly shattered, but spliced and intertwined with each other. And that's why he's so attached to the brothel, because he's trying to carry on a duty that he had in a past. Past life.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

And Michael and the whole team kind of eat it up because he's, like, desperate for an answer. So.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, what are you gonna do, disprove it? Right?

[B]

Like, you can do what you want with that information. Yeah, you can believe what you want. It's a little.

[A]

Michael believes that.

[B]

I'm like, I guess he seemed really desperate for someone to explain why he was. How he was.

[A]

Okay. Poor thing.

[B]

After that, I know I'm going on. On a lot here, but this is. We're talking about the ghost now, so I hope everyone's chill with that. But here we go. The next show I watched was, of course, Ghost Adventures, and it was clearly filmed after Dead Files because the introduction to this is that Michael has now been an owner of this place for five years. And he is obvious he's changed his.

[A]

Name to Joseph legally.

[B]

Well, he obviously is still in an agitated state. He's still acting.

[A]

So I was hoping at least it would, like, have calmed him a bit. But.

[B]

So they do. They don't say the show Dead Files gave us this information, but you can tell it was cut where that had been said. And then they just cut right into the scene.

[A]

Well, they're like, actually, we don't want to give credit to anybody, so we'll just say it.

[B]

So Michael's Friend who was also on Dead Files, who was the one who called them to say, come help my friend. She's also now being interviewed by Zach, tells them, you know, Michael's still acting really odd and he's very weird. And he's like. He acts really different when he's not here, but here he's like, totally off still. And tells Zach how the house has been affecting him and that he is Joseph reincarnated. Pretty much. Weirdly, Zach doesn't react the way you would expect. He seems actually concerned. And since Dead Files, apparently this is a super weird, fun fact that Michael also bought a house to live in outside of the brothel. And what are the odds? Without knowing it, he bought. Bought Joseph's house. So he bought Joseph's house that Joseph used to live in, and he bought Joseph's brothel and didn't know either time.

[A]

I mean, listen, I'm convinced that he's reincarnated, but whatever, what do I know?

[B]

So, I mean, and also, like, the friend too is also acting very odd and, like, very similar to how Michael is acting. They're both acting very agitated by things or, like, seeing things.

[A]

Who is she? Bonita reincarnated. I'm starting to get suspicious of these people.

[B]

So hold on to that. Both Michael and Jenny the friend, are acting very bizarre. I mean, Zach is genuinely weirded the out.

[A]

Okay, well, that, like, that's got to tell you something.

[B]

He's like, not even doing his usual bits. He's like, you can tell. He's like, are you okay? Like, what's going on?

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And like, at one point, he's trying to talk to her while during the walk through. And Jenny's like, covering her ears and like, it's like she can hear something or see something and she's like, wincing at things and she's saying, like, he's right behind you.

[A]

Zach's like, that's my job. I'm supposed to be on the floor, like, holding my head and saying, I'm possessed. Not you.

[B]

Yeah, it's like you're still in my thunder, hero. Well, I will say this was not mentioned anywhere, but I wanted to make sure I did some due diligence here. It seems in hindsight that Michael and probably his friend who seems to always be around, were dealing with some serious substance issues.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And in 2018, Michael died of an overdose.

[A]

No, that's terrible.

[B]

So that certainly kicks a portion of the paranormal stuff out the window. And when you look at it now with that knowledge, it does feel like a pretty Solid answer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Especially because both of them are acting exactly the same way. It feels erratic and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I'm totally off on the friend. Maybe she was just. Maybe something really paranormal was happening with her. I'm not sure. I don't know. I can't speak. I wasn't there. But we do know that alongside this, which if you are leaning the spooky route, you can always say, oh, well, he. He went that influenced into drugs because of all this stuff, whatever, you know. But he did die of an overdose in 2018.

[A]

Oh, that's sad.

[B]

And so to bring some levity back to this where I can. We got Zach Baggins on the radar, so we can.

[A]

I mean, he's here, right? Yeah. Okay.

[B]

So. Yeah.

[A]

So whatever happened to Travis?

[B]

Travis ends up selling it because Michael passed.

[A]

Oh, sad.

[B]

Okay. And. And Travis was really going through it too. Like, he said that there was people touching him. Like he could feel like a woman. Like he could feel breath on his neck, he could feel a woman, like, grabbing him and like, like he was really uncomfortable as well. And that they were all having paranormal experiences, which personally, I think two things could be happening. True. Happening at the same time. Maybe sometimes they were not in their right mind and it wasn't paranormal. Maybe it was really paranormal and no one believes them because they were also influenced. So who knows? But anyway, so while after Zach interviews these people and he's like totally freaked out not knowing anything else, they do their own investigation. And the. The episode is very creepy. There are huge crashes and thuds in the basement that everyone in the house hears. They use the SLS or stick figure camera, and it does, like, touch people on the arm right when they say to do it. And people can feel it and touch exactly where the SLS figure is showing up. They used the paranormal puck, which is essentially texting with ghosts, and they were able to speak to who they think was Eleanor. And there was a lot of interesting things there. I'm just trying to get through this quickly because there's something I do want to mention to you in a very creepy way. Billy and Zach at different times have, like, they black out and go into time slips and they don't. When they find Zach, he's in an empty room facing the wall.

[A]

Hey, I told you that's his job. He needs to be the one to having some sort of crisis.

[B]

He's like, I need to bring. Bring it back to me.

[A]

Actually, yeah, actually this a lot on other people.

[B]

He does ask the ghosts, why don't you like me? And an EVP that is very clear says, I just don't.

[A]

Okay, fair enough.

[B]

And then this is what I wanted to get to. I'm sorry. I know I've been rambling everybody, but I. I've really got so invested in this one.

[A]

Don't be worried. I apologize in advance. I have quite a doozy of a story too, so.

[B]

Okay, cool. Well, this is the part I wanted to get to in case you did need some levity. Here it is. Zach, while he's here, wants to try and experiment.

[A]

What?

[B]

This is a quote.

[A]

I thought it would. I already know.

[B]

Tell me, is it some sort of.

[A]

He wants to, like, entice the sex workers or something?

[B]

You were close. You. You were on. That is sounds like what would happen. But his whole storyline was he was after the big bad dark Joseph and not the sex workers, which is for. Okay, for a once. Yeah, for once.

[A]

Truly. Okay. Okay.

[B]

So flip it around and what do you get? Wicked witch. Sorry. Tik tok. Sorry.

[A]

It's like, oh, whoosh.

[B]

Anyone who hears the phrase flip it around these days knows what I'm talking about. Okay. But for Zach, flip around the situation, and instead of going after the women, he wants to go after the one man that owned this brothel. And an exact quote from Zach is, I thought it would be a good idea to bring what this man wants. Women. So Zach hired multiple women and dressed them as women of the night.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then made them each stay alone in an empty room. In this house, including the basement everyone's afraid of and the attic. There was one girl sitting alone in the basement.

[A]

So he filmed all of them.

[B]

So he just filmed them. And then he was.

[A]

Oh, my Lord.

[B]

Once he was at Nerve Center, I guess he gave each of them a walkie talkie so you can hear when he talks that every room is hearing it.

[A]

He's like, now I get to talk to all these women at once. Oh, my God.

[B]

This guy, he basically says, oh, I did. I wrote the quote. I'm so smart. Okay. So he says into the walkie talkie. He's talking to the man. He's like, wherever you are in the house, I know you can hear me. Ladies, this is the quote. Ladies are in your rooms now. And remember, these are, like, probably 20 year olds who, like, just wanted a chance to meet Zach Bagans.

[A]

And now they're just, like, wanted an extra, extra 100 bucks or something for, like, an acting gig or whatever.

[B]

Yeah. The holidays are coming up and they Need a TV credit and to buy some dinner.

[A]

Yeah, love that. For them, I would do it.

[B]

He says, ladies are in your rooms now. We brought these ladies to you. You can choose which lady you want, go to the room you like, and you can touch the ladies if you like. You can do whatever you want.

[A]

Tell me they signed a waiver for this, cuz.

[B]

Let's touch them. I'm like, tell me this was a paid gig. Tell me you flip into the union for this. Tell me, please. At least, dude, like, and also, like, they're not just like in like sweatpants. Like, they're in scantily clad. Yeah.

[A]

That Zachary picked.

[B]

And one of them, I don't know.

[A]

If she was just a rebel spirit.

[B]

Like, one of them's like really trying to like, be a part of the bit. And like, it's like leaning on the bed as if someone could walk in and like, they're trying their best. But like, you know that one girl in the basement all by herself, you know, they didn't tell her a single thing.

[A]

Or else she's like, wait a minute, I don't think I agreed to this. This.

[B]

Well, at one point, the girl in the basement, her name is McKinley, by the way, she hears heavy footsteps coming down the stairs of the basement. And she's alone. This is not anyone else. They are. There are heavy ass steps and you can see poor McKinley. She is smiling through the pain. She's trying so hard to keep it cool. And she's fully panicked.

[A]

She's probably like, someone's with me, but what if they're not with me and you're not with you?

[B]

Her face drops. She's like, this was a really funny dare. And now I'm tired. I want to.

[A]

Now I'm really regretting it.

[B]

So then Zach, this is a quote from him. If these footsteps are from a malicious spirit, I don't want to put McKinley in any danger. You put her in a basement with a man who wants to hurt people. What are you talking about?

[A]

Go touch her and pick your. Take your pick.

[B]

Pick your pick. Also. I can't believe I. I wouldn't dare put her in any harm. So then Zach heads down to her, uses the spirit box, and a voice comes out that says, I found you. Yuck.

[A]

Sorry, that was loud.

[B]

McKinley, by the way, at this point is holding on to Zach for dear fucking life.

[A]

Yeah, like, carry me out of here, dude.

[B]

She's over this. Meanwhile, an orb happens up in a room or something happens in a room where Zach has to leave. And so the final quote I want to give you is McKinley is in full panic mode. As I inform her that she'll have to remain down here by herself.

[A]

He's like, but I don't want to put her in any harm's way. Lock the door. What the fuck?

[B]

And keep in mind, I have really blown over the fact that, like, a lot of people died down there. Like, violent men were down there.

[A]

Right, right. With all the. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so it's like the. The vibe is very spooky.

[A]

And you probably told her all that while you locked the door.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, a bunch of people were killed down here. Bye. Anyway, they're gonna take their pick, so.

[B]

So nowadays, the place is owned by David and Charlie. They offer ghost tours here. They do overnight investigations. They have been interviewed by many of the YouTub watched. My favorite quote of theirs was, they said, when we walk into the building, every time we come in, we always speak to the ladies. And we. We say hello. We're back. And several times we've gotten a very friendly voice saying hello, which is very precious.

[A]

Oh, that's nice. At least they talk to the ladies, not Joseph.

[B]

You're telling me. So I'm just gonna rattle off some of the ghost things that happen here, and then I. I promise I'll.

[A]

And they still happen, right, with the new ownership.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. They're very. I don't know if proud's the right word, but they are not ashamed of the ghost.

[A]

They, like, own it, right?

[B]

They own it, and they're like, you can go in and do, like, overnight investigations.

[A]

That's good. At least that they, like, respect the history of it and are not just like, oh, nothing happened.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. They seem like the right people to be living there or working there. They actually work. Like, they live 300 miles away and every other weekend come back just to let people it. Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So other people who have visited here have reported seeing shadow figures darting between rooms and down hallways. Icy blasts of air for no reason. People have felt fingers twirling in their hair. They felt their hat, their head getting pat, their butts getting pinched and smacked. People have felt themselves getting choked, pushed. They have woken up with bruises the next day. Like, fingerprints are on them. People have felt, like, extreme nausea to the point where they've thrown up.

[A]

Up. Oh.

[B]

People have felt hands caressing them. They felt breath on their neck. They've seen three clawed scratches show up on their skin.

[A]

Ooh.

[B]

People have seen apparitions of a woman in black walking around or pacing the halls and They've also seen an apparition of a woman carrying a suitcase, which they think might be Eleanor before she.

[A]

Died because they thought trying to leave. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

There are also apparitions, clear as day. There were some YouTube videos of, like, a whole ass person just, like, walking right behind the person on camera. And, like, it's like, oh, that actually wasn't someone who works there. It was so creepy. Yeah, I can't say a whole apparition, but, like, you can see like. Like a head is bouncing. Like a full head. Like, it's like, obvious there's no movie magic on that. They. There are very clear EVPs on recorders and empty rooms. And one YouTube I watched back to back, the words that came out of an EVP session were they, mean you harm. Watch out for evil. I made that sound. I'll affect you. Ew. Like, I oughta just like, tread marks in the ground because I'm driving away so fast.

[A]

No wonder people are vomiting. I would vomit if I heard that. Seriously, I'd be like, bye. I'm gonna puke. That's horrible. Also, like, watch out. They mean you harm. Here I go. I could affect you. Like, wait a minute. Are you the same person? Are you you the person who means me harm?

[B]

Are you?

[A]

It's heinous.

[B]

There is an EVP that is apparently clear as day. And people who knew her have confirmed this is her and they know exactly what she's saying. The last madam, who I wanted you to remember, her name was Ruby, and she was a part of a robbery there. Remember?

[A]

She was the only one you told me not to write down.

[B]

To be fair, I wrote down Eleanor.

[A]

And Bonita, but I do remember all the. All of them.

[B]

Well, Ruby was the last madam. There was a robbery there that ended up closing the bank or closing. Well, closing the brothel. And there is a very clear EVP of her saying, it's not in the safe. And check the refrigerator.

[A]

Check the fake refrigerator.

[B]

That's how three of our employees are. So. And the people who knew her knew that she used to keep her pistol in the safe. And so they're assuming that this is a residual memory from when she was being robbed and they tried to look for a weapon. And she said, it's not in the safe. And if you were to hear it, if. If you were to hear it, it sounds. Because it's from someone from the 80s. Like, it just. It's. You know, they always make the joke of, like, where are the ghosts from, like, 2002.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It just sounds like a random person, like on the phone or something. Just being like it's not in the safe. Like one guy who, who, who I really enjoyed. I think his name was Fisk, Chris Fisk. He said that during an EV session. EVP session. He was not a believer, by the way. I think he like worked or did part time stuff at the building and he just stumbled upon people doing an investigation. And so he was kind of sitting.

[A]

Around and what's this all about?

[B]

Hearing this go on. He said something about like, oh, I left my phone in the car. And they got an immediate EVP of a voicing thing. Did he just say telephone?

[A]

Like that has a telephone in his car? Like, they're probably so confused.

[B]

Yeah. Or like they're amazed the telephones still exist in this era. And like, and they. Yeah, like they can be in a car. But I thought that was so weird.

[A]

That's really cool.

[B]

Did he just say telephone?

[A]

That's really cool. And because like, you wouldn't necessarily predict that sentence next. Like, you wouldn't ascribe that to like a random sound. I feel like that's a very specific.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did he just say telephone?

[B]

People hear all kinds of voices. Footsteps, thuds. People feel like they're walking through spider webs. In certain rooms, people time slip constantly. They wake up from these time slips feeling like violent and aggressive towards their friends. Ooh, People have been.

[A]

Zach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Punching Aaron in the head.

[B]

People have been chased out of there. They felt something like on their backs when they were running up the stairs.

[A]

Woof.

[B]

Exact worst nightmare. People have on the spirit box gotten their own names. And then the phrase get out in the basement. Like we have heard before, there was a domineering male energy there. And when interviewers have asked the staff what kind of activity has happened here, a lot of them just use the phrase just about everything.

[A]

I mean, it sounds like it. I believe it. In.

[B]

In the cribs in the basement, there is an overwhelming fear. There is panic, anxiety, sadness. A mirror flew across the room by itself. Things move down there by themselves all the time. One psychic who went down there literally was quoted saying it was more than a creepy feeling. All basements are creepy. This was frightening. Oh, and then a construction worker refuses to go down there anymore because his tools kept going missing. There was one death in the basement where a sex worker actually protected another sex worker from a guy with a knife and ended up being stabbed to death. And so of the film crews went in and put in like a. Like put flowers down for her. And then nobody touched the basement for a few days. And when they came back, the. The flowers had been stomped on and shoved under a rock.

[A]

Oh. Oh, my God. Ooh, that's dark.

[B]

And then one artist was staying in an upstairs room and had, like, some inspiration to paint Eleanor, because she's, like, this. This woman who passed here and was a madam here, here. But she could not get the face right to save her life. She kept saying, like, she just felt compelled to paint differently, and she ended up painting this different face every single time she tried. And she apparently did, like, tens of versions of this painting and could not get it right. No matter what, it always ended up being the same face that she didn't recognize. So she showed it to the property owner, and they were like, that's not Eleanor. That's Bonita.

[A]

Yeah, I knew it.

[B]

The one who allegedly killed her.

[A]

That is so creepy.

[B]

Okay, speaking of Eleanor and Bonita, there's a psychic there that. That went there named Kathleen, who went on a tour. And after talking to the tour guide and passing along her business card, the brothel, like, put itself in disarray, like, became a complete mess. After the psychic was there, I guess the tour guide started closing up and started hearing sounds through the house, like, the guests had not left yet. And so she thought someone was hiding or, like, what got. Got lost in the house, but she was just there by herself. And then the next day, when she opened up, this is a quote. The place was a mess. The hats that hang on the walls were on the floor, lined up down the hallway.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Pictures that have been on the walls were lying on the floor. The interior doors that were shut and locked were wide open. And then later, that same psychic came back a second time and had this moment in brave. I know had this moment in the madam's quarters where she felt like, immense sorrow. She saw the painting of Bonita, and she just, like, felt really, like, touched by this. But that night when she went home and went to bed, this is a quote from her. I was awoken at 1am when I felt my cat jump on my bed and pounce on my foot hard. I sat up to shoo her away and then remembered my cat hadn't come inside that night. Night. And then I saw her, Bonita. And she was sitting on the end of my bed.

[A]

It was my foot.

[B]

It was the lady from the painting. She had followed me home. I asked her to explain her presence, and she began to answer me in a confident and authoritative tone, saying, please tell Rudy the property owner at the time that the Dumas will be okay. Tell him that Bonnie said so. Though she looked at me directly in the eyes and held my gaze for a moment with her blazing eyes. And I sat up to touch her and poof. She completely vanished. Whoa. The only remnants left was the dimpled outline of my bed cover where she had sat upon it and the lingering faint scent of ladies perfume.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

With that, I knew that I had to call Rudy immediately. What did Bonita mean? Rudy will save the Dumas from what? And then Rudy later said that the Dumas was the focal point of a lawsuit and a legal nightmare that blooming. And a few months later, the legal issue was settled in his favor and the ownership of the building came back to him. So he did end up saving it.

[A]

There was a mysterious witness named Bonnie.

[B]

Yeah, I know. This was so long. I have two clips I want to show you and I'm ending on those. I'm ending on those. Sorry.

[A]

God, I have like a terrible goose cam. Oh my God.

[B]

For all the people who are like team Christine's story. I've really like edged you guys.

[A]

So sorry, it's like not that long.

[B]

I am going to send you a. I don't know if we can show it to other people, but I want you to be able to see it. I took a video of it on the. On my phone. Cuz you had like pay to watch this.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

So this is in the basement in one of the cribs. And this is a ghost hunting team. And they were getting a bunch of EVPs or like a spirit box talking to them, them and they kept getting the word wait. And so they like wait for what? Wait for what? And then, and then this happened. I. I just sent it to you. I hope it went through.

[A]

Watch it now.

[B]

Yeah. Jesus.

[A]

Dude.

[B]

Did you watch the whole thing? It does it twice.

[A]

Oh, it goes again.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Seeing it the second time when it zoomed in on that object. What is that object?

[B]

So funny you mentioned it. It was a. One of the bottles that they found in the 40s that had been left in a wall there. And the bottle. So for people who did not get to see it, the. The bottle that is sitting on a dresser literally by itself with no, no one's touching the dresser. There's no reason for it to make move. The bottle just goes bam.

[A]

Just drops on after they ask like wait for what? Your boyfriend to come back? And then like a few seconds and then boom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I love every time one of these clips happen in A ghost show. You just hear beep because they immediately start swearing. Like, immediate sensor. I love it.

[B]

But. So that bottle was actually an original bottom of laudanum, which in the 40s was used for abortions and was also used a lot by the sex workers to die by suicide.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Although there is. There's talk about maybe it was not actively intentionally meant.

[A]

Yeah. Because I think it was also used as a medication.

[B]

It was used as a medication, but three teaspoons of it was a lethal dose. So you had to take very little of it. And some people might not have known and accidentally been poisoning.

[A]

And you don't want a bottle of that spilling around on your nightstand.

[B]

No, but the fact that it's also empty is like, where did it go? Or like, was that just shared with a bunch of people or what?

[A]

Well, probably. If it was like sitting there for decades, it probably evaporated.

[B]

Evaporated your right. So anyway, I thought that was creepy enough to show you is that a bottle literally just full blown moved itself. And then I'm sending you a link to a YouTube clip, and I want you to go to the 35 on the dot minute mark. 35.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And basically this is a guy, the guy I said I liked earlier, Mr. Fisk. He was again, a non believer. And this is the thing that made him believe. He stopped by this investigation where he did not. He. He did not believe in this. And then he saw a picture that someone took.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Of a random guy. They just took a picture of a guy who was working there, and that's what they got in the picture.

[A]

Okay. And we'll put the links in the show notes with. With.

[B]

Yes. This is Paranormal Files, by the way, if anyone wants to go look at it on YouTube.

[A]

Okay. 35 sec. Or 35.

[B]

Is that not the craziest thing?

[A]

Hey, hey. That's horrid. Hey, stop zooming in. Show the amount of times you need to zoom in and then zoom out and then zoom. Oh, my God.

[B]

I literally.

[A]

And the musical stings. I'm gonna die.

[B]

That has to be like a costume or something. But, like, the fact that he's not a believer. He was like. That was what made me a believer. He was like, everyone get out of this house.

[A]

Get out. We're leaving.

[B]

He literally said that.

[A]

He was like, hey, bye. This is. Is the scariest photo I have ever seen.

[B]

So for those who can't see, there he was in. In the middle of an investigation or with an investigative team, and they were taking just random pictures around the House to get I guess like some like baseline shots and they took a picture of one of the guys on the team. And when the picture developed there is like not even a question of a doubt. A full face in that guy's face staring at you and really intensely.

[A]

Huge eyes. Like her face, like this like horror show.

[B]

You don't have to guess. It looks like a person in a.

[A]

Costume in the picture with him. Like, like almost like white face paint or like makeup.

[B]

Like a clown. Like it looks, yeah, it looks clownish.

[A]

But like, oh, it looks like horror struck. Oh, oh, oh, I hate that. And it like her, her face is like, it almost looks like old timey. Because like her, it looks like her hair is pulled back or because it.

[B]

Was kind of like an older time maybe like being that pale was a thing.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I mean not to immediately call this out but like it almost looks like her nose is like missing, which I think. Isn't that a thing of syphilis? Isn't that what happens when you get syphilis that your nose cartilage starts to. I mean, I don't know, that's kind of a strange.

[B]

I like how you're like not to call her out. She's not, she's.

[A]

Okay, let me immediately diagnose her with my non medical degree. But like it looks like a horror show. Like it looks like a skeletal, like a.

[B]

Well, people in the comments are saying she looks like a corpse. Corpse.

[A]

Yeah, it looks like a corpse. Her eyes are like wide. It looks like she saw something horrible. Oh, hey, this is really awful. I can't stop looking at it.

[B]

Yeah, I saw that at 3 in the morning. I went, okay, not going to bed tonight.

[A]

Bye. I would not be able to deal with that. No, no.

[B]

Anyway, I thought that was a great way to end. That's the Dumas brothel.

[A]

Please look at the photo. Maybe we can link the photo somewhere because like that's horrid.

[B]

Yeah, it's Paranormal files, the Dumas Hotel. And then it's 30 minute, 35 minutes, like on the dial.

[A]

Oh my God. I like how they circle it. I'm like, yeah, I see it. You don't need to put a big circle around it. She's right there.

[B]

I feel like they were like this. You clearly will have to circle it because you're gonna think this is a random person.

[A]

Like another picture investigator.

[B]

Yeah, it's a full ass person. And she looks horrified. It's almost like we're seeing her last moments.

[A]

Yes, that's what it looks like. She Just saw something and got startled to death.

[B]

I, like, can't look her in the eyes. I feel like she's gonna show up in my house.

[A]

It's actually, like, really unsettling. It's like, actually really, you know, this me of the only time I ever kind of felt like this. Maybe not the only time, but one of the times was that picture of that little boy in that one house.

[B]

Oh, the Amityville Horror.

[A]

Amityville. Where there's that little boy stairwell who's, like, looking at you like that. I feel like is the only time I've ever felt so startled by an image.

[B]

It's absolutely horrid. Yeah. Anyway, I. I really went down a rabbit hole, and I was trying to fit as much in as I could, so I hope everyone was fine with that.

[A]

But, oh, my God, that was so scary.

[B]

That, by the way, that picture alone makes me not want to visit. Like, it accidentally did backwards marketing where, like, I'm like, yeah, I can't be there now.

[A]

I'll be honest. I want to go now.

[B]

Part of me is like, oh, I still have to do it in my 50 states. Maybe I should go take a visit. And I'm like, yes, Maybe on the world's busiest day, take a bunch of.

[A]

Selfies because I want to see if she shows up.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Oh. Oh, that's horrible.

[B]

All right, beat that with your story.

[A]

Seriously, I'd give up. Honestly. I quit. That was crazy. That was crazy.

[B]

What would you like to do for intermission?

[A]

First, I'd like to pee, and then I don't really have anything prepared. Do you want to brainstorm while I go pee?

[B]

I'll also pee.

[A]

And if I come. If I don't come back, somebody's been waiting for me.

[B]

The door slammed again. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. It's hard to think of a thoughtful gift, right? But neutrophil makes it easy because it's thoughtful, it's practical, it's meaningful. Healthy, stronger hair is a gift that keeps going long after the holiday season ends. I've referred several of my friends to Nutrafol. I've used it for years, and it really has done wonders for me.

[B]

She's lush. She's lush. Neutropol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. And. And just like Christine said, thicker, stronger, faster growing hair happens with less shedding and just three to six months. And so if you are curious about what to get someone for Christmas, why not good hair? You know what I'M saying, yeah, it's.

[A]

A great gift because then you get to reap the benefits too. You know, you get to look at their head and be like, ah, how nice.

[B]

That's my gift. Do I get to look at your skull? Are you kidding me?

[A]

Yeah. Hey. This holiday season, Nutrafol is a perfect gift for anyone on your list. Your mom or aunt going through menopause, a friend who just had a baby and is experiencing postpartum hair shake, spending, your husband or father who relies on his baseball cap to cover up yourself, or anyone looking to support their overall hair health.

[B]

Yeah, give the gift of confidence this holiday season with Nutrafol. Whether you're treating yourself or someone on your list with visibly healthier, thicker hair, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

[A]

Right now, Nature Full is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription, plus free shipping. When you go to natureful.com and use promo code DRINK. That's neutrophil.com promo code DRINK for $10 off.

[B]

Oh, Christine, look at my boring, boring frames behind me.

[A]

Oh, they don't even move.

[B]

I know. I really, I need an upgrade. Whatever could we do?

[A]

I have a great gift idea. It makes it super easy. It's called an aura frame and it is such a thoughtful gift, but also such an easy gift. And then you got pictures of Hank. You got pictures of whatever you want on your walls and you can just keep looking at them. And it's just like the endless joy of seeing all your favorite pictures flash by. Yeah.

[B]

There are unlimited free photos and video. When you get aura frames, you just download the aura app and connect to wi fi. Aura frames is the hidden gem that becomes the favorite gift long after the wrapping paper is gone. I can't imagine there's a family member out there who wouldn't appreciate essentially a photo album in one compact little frame.

[A]

And it looks nice, like it looks like a really swanky frame, too.

[B]

It's wonderful. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get 35 off Aura's best selling carver mat frames, name named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code ATWWD at checkout.

[B]

That's a U R A frames.com promo code at WWWD. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays and support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[A]

Wow, folks, that was quite a yappy hour we just did. And it was a lot of intense conversation. So we're back.

[B]

Back for more intense conversations.

[A]

We suddenly. Yeah, we suddenly realized what we were doing and we were like, oh, we better do the episode. So we're back for the episode. I have a doozy today. Okay. This is the story of Aaron Patterson and the mushroom murders.

[B]

Literally. Thank you. I don't know what's about to happen, but it sounds when you've got a name like the mushroom murders, it's a doozy.

[A]

Do you remember this? This was within the last couple years.

[B]

No, I've literally never heard this before. No.

[A]

Okay, so let's get into it. Aaron E R I N Patterson was a 48 year old woman living in Leongatha. I hope I'm saying that right. A rural town in Victoria, Australia. She was separated from her husband, Simon Patterson and shared two children with him. In mid July of 2023, she invited her ex Simon and her in laws, which were his parents and his aunt and uncle, to a lunch at her house. House Gail and Don Patterson were Simon's parents. So her parents in law. Then we've got Heather and Ian Wilkinson, who are Simon's aunt and uncle. Simon was invited as part of the lunch too. And Aaron explained that she wanted to discuss her health issues with the family. But the evening before, Simon, her ex, sent her a message and it said, sorry, I feel too uncomfortable about coming to the lunch with you, mom, dad, Ian and Heather tomorrow. Tomorrow. But I'm happy to talk about your health and the implications of that at another time.

[B]

And Simon was her ex.

[A]

Her ex, yeah. They were technically still married, but they were separated.

[B]

I see. Okay. And they had kids together. So it. Two kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It sounds like she had something serious to tell him.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And she had kind of made that clear. She's like, I want to talk to everyone about. And she had hinted at some health issues recently. So they weren't totally shocked by this. They just didn't know what the actual whole conversation would be about. She was not happy with this message and she responded, that's really disappointing. I've spent many hours this week preparing lunch for tomorrow, which has been exhausting in light of the issues I'm facing. And I spent a small fortune on beef. I filet to make beef Wellingtons because I wanted it to be a special meal as I may not be able to host a lunch like this again for some time.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So starts off rough. And despite the fact that Simon did not come to the lunch, Aaron went ahead with the plan anyway. She served individual beef welling and pastries, each containing beef pastry and mushrooms with side of mashed potatoes and green beans. She told her guests that the news she wanted to share is that she had recently been diagnosed with cancer. And she said she was seeking their advice on how to tell her children.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. So they saw it more as like a family meeting rather than just like a casual social lunch. Right. So they, they spent time with her. Aaron had reportedly sent her children out to a movie before the guests arrived so that they wouldn't be around for the conversation. And the lunch proceeded without incident. They said goodbye and they headed home that night. Within hours of leaving, all four guests became violently ill with severe vomiting, diarrhea, and their conditions deteriorated rapidly overnight.

[B]

So I can't. Am I allowed to make a guess, please? Am I right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I'm not gonna guess. I'll. I'll instead say, I don't know. Beef Wellington's one of my favorite foods, so I was gonna make you guess.

[A]

What the meal was.

[B]

Yeah, Beef Wellington is on my last, last row meal request.

[A]

Well, it's perfectly apt for this conversation then. Have you ever made it?

[B]

I certainly couldn't make it, but I. It's shocking how few places in LA they serve it. I think it's one of those, like, dying dishes that no one makes anymore.

[A]

Isn't that the Gordon Ramsay special, or am I wrong about that?

[B]

He does make a beef Wellington that's famous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But anyway, I'll just say I would be just as sick as these people if you put any beef Wellington in front of me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was interested because. So red handed, which they just do a great show. I listened to both of their parts on this story and they talked about, like making beef Wellington. And I'm like, I've not made it. But it is hard because you use like a, A. What do you call that? The long cut of beef. Like the whatever.

[B]

It's like a roll.

[A]

Yeah, that thing. And then you're supposed to cook it, like to the right temperature, medium rare. Ish. Like throughout. It seems like a tough thing. She, however, did individual, which isn't really a normal thing, I think. I think you're not. No.

[B]

Usually like, it's a. Looks like a tiny little loaf of bread.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. Yeah. So she did a little bit differently either way. The following morning, Simon received a call from his dad. Remember, he had not attended the lunch. His dad calls him Don. Don says he and his wife Gail were sick and needed to go to the hospital. He added that Heather And Ian were sick as well. On the way to the hospital, Gail asked her son Simon whether Aaron had mismatched dishware because she had used a different colored plate from everyone else at the lunch. Which is kind of a wild thing to say right out the gate, but because it's like I. And red handed made a good point, too, of, like, a lot of dishware comes in sets of four, to be fair. You know, so, like, okay, red handed. Okay. You would maybe take the extra plate. Right. But it is a little bit odd.

[B]

And to clock it so quick, it's like either you notice right away.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Or you don't even realize what. How profound what you're saying is.

[A]

Yeah. Subconscious. Or subconsciously it's stuck until you know and you didn't even realize. Yeah. It's. It's just odd. He said he wasn't sure, but perhaps it was mismatched tableware that was the reason they get to the hospital. Dr. Chris Webster, he becomes pivotal in this story. He asked the patients. He's alarmed. Right. All four of them. First, he thinks maybe food poisoning, but the way the. The level of their sickness is pretty shocking. So he asked him about their recent meals, and he pretty quickly suspects amatoxin poisoning, which is what is caused by death. Cap mushrooms.

[B]

I was gonna say. Was it a type of mushroom that she shouldn't have used? Okay.

[A]

Type of mushroom. Death cat mushrooms are responsible for approximately 90% of fatal mushroom poisonings worldwide.

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

But they're quite rare in Australia, so he's immediately alarmed. Dr. Webster tells the family he needs to speak to whomever made the meal asap. So Simon called Aaron, his ex. She said, yeah, you know, I've had gastrointestinal issues since the lunch yesterday and all morning, and I think I'm going to come in and get an IV at the very least. Aaron presents at the hospital, and Dr. Webster rushes out. He hears she's there in the waiting room. He rushes out, said something along the lines of, I've been waiting to speak to you. And she just immediately looks alarmed and shocked. And she says, it's not a big deal. I'm just a gastro patient. Like, what's the big deal?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's like, I need you to know. Know you might have been. You might be affected by a potentially fatal toxin.

[B]

And also, like. Like, if anyone dies, even in a world where it was not intentional, that's total charge, babe. Like, you're totally.

[A]

He's like, we need to figure this out. And not even if you're in trouble, but, like, you need to tell us what's going on so that we can fix this before it becomes fatal. He tells her, we. We need to admit you for treatment and observation. And she says, I have to go actually feed my dog. And they're like, got a blast.

[B]

Yeah, bye.

[A]

Okay. She says she has to go home to feed her pets and pack a ballet bag for her daughter. In CCTV footage, you can actually see a nurse trying to stop her from leaving. Like, is walking up and putting a hand on her shoulder, being like, please, like, we need you to stay. She is determined to get out of there. She's like, absolutely not.

[B]

And what did she think was gonna happen? Why? The second you walk into a hospital after that, you.

[A]

She came voluntarily. That's the other thing is, like, nobody tricked her into coming. She came voluntarily. Basically. Simon called and said, said, hey, the doctors are really worried about you because everyone's sick and they think it might be food poisoning or maybe even, like, a fatal toxin. And she goes, yeah, you're right. I should come in. And then she comes in and they say, hey, we think it might be mushrooms from wherever they were sourced. Where did you get the mushrooms? She's like, I have to go. Bye.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

She peaces out. One thing that made me laugh was. Was like I said, she had said, oh, I've had gastrointestinal distress. I've had diarrhea all morning. She is in that CCTV footage boldly wearing a set of white pants. And a number of, like, Internet folks have pointed this out and, like, yeah, obviously it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but.

[B]

It'S like, it means something, right?

[A]

Like, what are you wearing white pants? And you're saying, oh, I had diarrhea all day, and, like, I've been barely able to. To go anywhere. And it's like, even, like, even, like.

[B]

A Heather gray sports gray sweatpant would be rough choice. Scary. You Rough choice. Black. You go black every time.

[A]

Yeah. In that situation. So after Aaron left against medical advice, Dr. Webster made what is now a. An infamous call to Triple Zero, the emergency number. He tells dispatch that he needs to track down a woman who could potentially be afflicted with fatal toxins from a mushroom. It's unclear in the call because he is very professional. He sticks to the facts, but he had already begun to suspect Aaron had a little more to do with this than maybe you initially realized.

[B]

When you run out and there's fire behind your heels because you are trying to get out as fast as you.

[A]

Can, has you heard the word mushrooms and your eyes went really wide. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You got to suspect something. At the very least that it was accidental, but something happened.

[A]

But something might have happened because he's like, we gotta track this woman down. The reason he had gotten initially a bit suspicious, this is that. That this was more nefarious than just an accident is that he had asked where she'd gotten the mushrooms and she said, Woolworths. And he was like, I smell obviously not selling death cap mushrooms. And also he said, like, I might have. He insinuated like, I might have believed her if she had been foraging for mushrooms and it was an accident. Whatever. But, like, Woolworths is a wild choice. If you're gonna see, say, oh, I accidentally came across poison mushrooms, you'd mention the foraging. If you had been foraging, you'd be like, oops.

[B]

Or like, someone gifted me these from when they went foraging.

[A]

Yeah, some mysterious. Yeah. And so she said Woolworths. And he was like, okay, so this is not just like someone who's admitting to amateur foraging or anything like that. The Woolworths comment was a huge red flag. Two hours later, Aaron reappeared at the hospital. She claimed she'd gone home and accidentally fallen asleep. Evidence would later show that she'd been driving around aimlessly on the highway for two hours. Probably, like, racking her brain for what to do. For sure. I've been in that mode where you're just like, driving and you're like, what? I mean.

[B]

No, no, not.

[A]

Not quite.

[B]

No. I could imagine just like being in a panic. Just being like, what do I do?

[A]

Yeah, like circling, like trying to get your brain going. So she comes and she's like, oops, sorry, I fell asleep. Now we know that wasn't the case. Upon arriving the second time, Aaron told Dr. She was feeling much better and that there probably wasn't much to worry about because she'd actually given the leftovers of the beef Wellington to her kids and they appeared to be fine.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

And she actually did feed it to them. Wow. She went full Monty on this.

[A]

Okay, well, we don't know. We. The kids have later said they. They ate leftovers, but we're not sure. She may not have fed the. But that was the story she told that, yes, she fed the leftovers of the be. Which another point. Like, even if it was just food poisoning and not like a toxic. A fatal mushroom, why would you. You throw that away? Even if it was just like basic diarrhea, you know, even if it was just mild diarrhea, you shouldn't be feeding that to anybody.

[B]

I. I'm sure one of her arguments was like, well, beef Wellington's really hard to make, so, like, I was gonna really make it work, work, because that was not worth the time.

[A]

So they said like, hey, we just told you that this could be fatal. And she's like, don't worry. I scraped the mushrooms off because my kids don't like mushrooms. And still, like, what are you thinking?

[B]

Yeah, no, thank you.

[A]

And they don't even know if that's the case yet. Like, we don't know. That was just a guess that it was the mushrooms. It could be the beef. You know, who knows?

[B]

She is just digging herself a hole because I feel like. Couldn't. She could have left the kids out of this. But now they're going to be panicked being like, where are your children? You might have just killed your children. True.

[A]

So she's. They say, you need to go get your kids out of school and bring them here for observation, for assessment. And she says, no, I don't want to scare them. And the doctor, who's basically had enough of this, he's reported to have responded with words to the effect of, do you want scared kids or dead kids?

[B]

Oh, good for him.

[A]

Not around here. All the while, Don, Gail, Ian, and Heather were on the decline. Doctors needed to know where Aaron had gotten these mushrooms. She claimed she used a mix of mushrooms for the meal. Some of the fresh ones were from Woolworths, and the dried mushrooms were from an Asian supermarket. They called local infectious diseases physician Professor Rhonda Stewart. She's immediately concerned that this is going to be a public health risk, that if. If a supermarket were inadvertently selling death cat mushrooms, that this was going to be a widespread issue. So she shows up and is like, you need to tell us where the supermarket was. Do you remember anything about the area? What neighborhood? She gives a few suburbs, but she.

[B]

Can'T remember a few suburbs. She can't come up with.

[A]

With, like, can't remember.

[B]

Wild. It's kind of like when. Well, it's not, but it's. It's making me think of when certain restaurants, like, had to, like, pull their stock on, like, lettuce because of, like, E. Coli or something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, there's a huge frenzy because everyone could be getting poisoned.

[A]

People could die because it just, like, spreads.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Taken so, so seriously, like, she. I don't think she thought through her. Her backup alibi here.

[A]

Like, no, she really did not.

[B]

Like, she's causing a citywide panic.

[A]

Yeah, she's one of these people that, like, thinks she's real br then. And she is smart in a lot of ways. Like, she's an air traffic controller. She's passed the test to do that. She's a smart woman, but she thinks she's gonna fool everyone. And it's like she's already shocked that they figured out the mushroom so quickly that it's a poison mushroom. Like, she. The way she reacted like. Like totally caught deer cotton headlights was like, I have to leave. Like, she totally.

[B]

Like, she didn't think she'd get confronted once at all. That's crazy. Crazy.

[A]

And she's like, well, I have a. I have diarrhea despite my clean white pants. I mean, I don't know.

[B]

Wow. Okay.

[A]

So she goes to speak with Aaron. She's like, you need to tell us. This could be a disaster for the public. Aaron is reluctant to speak with her. She keeps, like, not. She keeps evading the question. She said, oh, it was months ago. I have no clue where they came from. Doesn't seem particularly concerned. So then the professor, Rhonda Stewart, says, have you been mushrooming? And Aaron said, no. Know later, Aaron claimed she didn't know what this meant. And it's like, she's like, I didn't know it meant foraging for mushrooms. And it's like, well, what do you think? You're on like a.

[B]

Like you're taking.

[A]

Yeah. Like, what else could it mean? Whatever, Fine. You didn't know what it meant. So she says, no. Six days after the lunch, it's August 4, 2023. Both Heather Wilkinson and Gail Patterson pass away in the hospital.

[B]

Hmm.

[A]

Dawn Patterson died the following day. On August 5, 2023. Doctors tried everything. They tried a liver trans. They actually did a liver transplant and all three of them passed away. Ian Wilkinson spent weeks in the hospital. This is Simon's uncle. And by the way, he was the one who knew her the least, which is so crazy. Like, the aunt and uncle didn't know her very well. The parents in law were. They've. They'd had an ongoing relationship with her for years, but the aunt and uncle were just like, oh, we were happy to be invited. Like, we just.

[B]

Just happy to be here. Nobody's safe.

[A]

Nobody's safe. So Ian, he spent weeks in the hospital. He was actually put into a medically induced coma. Yeah. For months. And he actually survived. I'm sure she did not like that because he woke up and was able to tell them all about. About the lunch and everything that went down. He woke up he survived, they said, against all odds. But he had to learn that his wife of 50 years, his sister in law and his brother in law had all passed away.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

And to this day he continues to suffer long term health complications. I saw somewhere that he called himself half alive because he had lost his wife. I know.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

And he's a pastor and he continues to, to what do you call it? Preach in church. And he's only ever spoken about this with like sadness. And he doesn't like berate her or blame her. It's pretty wild. But he just. Clearly, this is such a tragedy. Thankfully, the children were confirmed to be unharmed. So for whatever she said, she thankfully did not do anything to them. But again, it's like, so she's fine and her kids are fine.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And everyone else is shady.

[B]

I know.

[A]

August 5, 2023. Investigators searched Aaron's home. They took multiple phones and a tablet. And on the tablet they found photos of kitchen scales with mushrooms on them. They then took these scales and tested them and they tested positive for death cat mushrooms. Huh. There were also pictures of a dehydrator with mushrooms in it. And it's a full working lab over here. I mean, really. And why are you taking pictures of all this? When asked if she ever owned a dehydrator, she said no. So they were like. But they didn't tell her they had the pictures. They didn't want to kind of show their hand. So they said, well, we found this manual. And they had found a manual. And she said, said, well, yeah, I collect manuals.

[B]

Okay, sure.

[A]

For appliances you don't own. That's so weird. What are you talking about? You collect manuals.

[B]

It'd be one thing if she was like a 50 year old dad who had a big Ziploc of all the spectrum of the things and probably, I mean, someone who likes to read the manuals, I'm sure.

[A]

But like to collect them and say, I've never actually owned one, I just have them. I mean it is talking about to not own it.

[B]

It or to say you don't own it is like, then how did it even get here?

[A]

Why? Why? And I want to add to like the caveat that technically devil's advocate, like, just because there were death cat mushroom traces on the scale doesn't mean she necessarily knew at the time they were death cat mushrooms. Right, right. So like. But they were shown to have been holding death cat mushrooms at some point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when police checked her bank statement, wouldn't you know, it Four days after the lunch with the family, when basically, right. As they're about to pass away, she had paid through. They were able to see through her statements, paid for a visit to the dump, where she was also caught on camera. And she was dumping a food dehydrator at the dock.

[B]

Whoopsies.

[A]

Right? They pull it from the dump and find traces of death cat mushroom in the dehydrator.

[B]

I mean, this is a slam dunk, huh?

[A]

I mean, really, it's absurd. On November 2, 2023, Aaron Patterson was arrested on three counts of murder and five counts of attempted mur. After it was discovered that her ex, Simon, had been ill and hospitalized for a mysterious stomach illness months earlier. So the accusation was, not only did you kill these three people, attempt to kill Ian, who survived, but also, like, at least once tried to kill your husband.

[B]

Like, it was like a. Like a practice round, maybe, or like.

[A]

A failed attempt, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Or if I do it to him first and not everyone all at once, then it maybe looks less suspicious if it's scattered or something. Something.

[A]

Or. Although he. He did. We'll get to his testimony. He did almost die, like, on multiple occasions. So I think. Oh, I think she was attempting this. And, you know, one of the theories is that she was just aiming at him the whole time. And when he didn't show up for lunch, she was like, well, now everyone else is collateral damage. And that's your punishment, I guess. I mean, I don't really know the logic there.

[B]

Crazy. Wow.

[A]

Yeah, but I mean, think about that suffering of, like, your parents and you're. I mean, it's just really sick.

[B]

I go, wow.

[A]

And the kids are in the middle.

[B]

I mean, that's so sad.

[A]

It is. So she was arrested for both murder and attempted murder. So now I want to get into the trial and the evidence, like, both circumstantial evidence, including the white pants, which isn't really evidence, but it's more like Internet side eyes. But I want to start the day that everyone was hospitalized. Remember, she claimed, like, she'd been sick all day since the lunch she spent that morning with terrible diarrhea. Etc. She needed an IV from the hospital. Well, turns out she had actually taken her son to a flight lesson 90 minutes away and back. And she only stopped one time during this trip. So, like, if she were having constant, you know, stomach issues. Questionable.

[B]

She would still be at the airport, you think?

[A]

Right. You'd think you wouldn't get very far or at least, like, make multiple stops.

[B]

Lest you forget, when we were on tour, and I had horrible food poisoning. There was. There's no stopping you.

[A]

There's nothing. Especially if you're wearing white pants. My dude. If that was an accident, you made a big mistake.

[B]

But there's. And there's no, well, let me just drive 90 minutes in this direction and hope for the best. It's. We are.

[A]

You are stopped down for the count. So when they show this. When they see this footage of her stopping at the service station, she only goes into the bathroom for nine seconds. And they're like, well, so it doesn't even seem like you went to the bathroom. And she said, well, no, actually, what happened was I had to stop, like, for an emergency bathroom break on. In the bush, like, on the side of the road. And so I'd used, like, some napkins and stuff to clean myself up. And when we got to the gas station, I went inside to throw away, like, the paper towels and napkins and stuff. It's like, okay. They asked her son, and he. He doesn't remember stopping on the side of the road. Then again, he doesn't remember stopping at the gas station either. And he's like, a kid, so it's like.

[B]

Like.

[A]

But you'd think at least if your mom was, like, on the side of the road, you'd have, like, slight memory. I mean, again, I don't know. It's a kid. I don't want to put him on the spot like that.

[B]

But I. I'll put my mom on the spot. I still remember when she peed on the side of the road.

[A]

I mean, listen, it's something you. I feel like it's hard to forget.

[B]

It's like, when it happens, it's got to happen. It will be in this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so he doesn't remember stopping on the side of the road, for what that's worth. What's more is after she spends nine seconds in the bathroom and then comes out, which is like, if you were peeing, you didn't even wash your hands for long enough. You know, she leaves, and she goes and buys a sweet chili chicken wrap.

[B]

From the gas station with her dirty bathroom hands.

[A]

Isn't that. But. But I know you have diarrhea, food poisoning. You're gonna order a sweet chili chicken wrap from a gas station, literally.

[B]

Oh, might as well get fish sticks or something from, like, a weird.

[A]

From a rotator. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yuck.

[A]

It's just a wild choice to me. I'm like, this just all feels ridiculous to me.

[B]

All in one hands. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And this is, again, like, obviously this doesn't prove anything. Okay, but, like, I know people have probably eaten worse stuff during food poisoning.

[B]

Bout, but, like, in my spirit, it proves something.

[A]

Something's up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Aaron appears calm. She doesn't seem frenzied. Like, nothing seems wrong in the footage. So prosecutors contrasted the footage, like, with that with the claims that Aaron made about having diarrhea all day, being so sick she needed an iv. You know, all this going to, like, she. She admits at the time she needed to be hospitalized and get iv and it's like, okay. Clearly not. The prosecution argued the footage was inconsistent with the severity of illness she had described. She claimed that she had stopped on the side of the road, but that couldn't be proven, obviously. Now, as for foraging mushrooms, she was asked again at a later point not have you been mushrooming, but have you been foraging for mushrooms or foraging for anything? She said, no, I've never done that. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In May 2022, records show. Now, this is where things get a little specific. So I have to use my words carefully. In May of 2022, records showed that Aaron had visited a website, by the way, using Bing.

[B]

Searching on Bing, please ask Jeeves how to kill my husband.

[A]

What's the one? My stepdad. Duck, duck, go. It's just embarrassing.

[B]

I've never heard of that one.

[A]

That one doesn't store your information. So I'm like, okay, but, like, your iPhone does. So whatever. Like, okay, you do whatever's gonna make you feel better. So she goes to Bing and she searches for a website called Inaturalist with a, like, a little I I naturalist, which featured a posting about death cat mushrooms having been spotted in a particular area called lock. Now, only 10 days after this was posted, and we cannot prove she read that posting. All they can prove is that she went onto the website during the time that that was posted on the website. So there's no way to prove she actually read what was on there. But the posting was by this woman named Christine who said, hey, I just spotted this mushroom in this spot. Even, like, geotagged it because she was a. For a former poison expert. And she said she goes, like, on hikes and stuff, and when she finds something dangerous or whatever, she. She takes it, she puts it in, like, a doggy bag and throws it away so that nobody accidentally picks it. So she puts the tag there for all the other nature people. I don't come near here. Yeah. Or, like, keep an eye out because we don't want random people wandering and, like, eating A mushroom off the ground and it being poisonous, so. And because they're so rare in Australia, it's like, oh, if you see these, like, you should mark it. And you know, being someone concerned about public safety, public health, they pinned it. Well, we can't prove she read that post, but she did go to the website and during the time that that was posted and 10 days later, Aaron's phone showed her traveling from her town to the area called Lock and staying in that area for about an hour.

[B]

Just an hour. Just a quick.

[A]

Just quick, quick out. She spent nine seconds in the gas station bathroom. But she spen.

[B]

Yeah, that's a great point, actually.

[A]

Just saying. Okay, so another sighting of the death cat mushroom, this time in an area called out RIM was posted May 22. The following day, her phone showed her driving to Lock again, then to Outrim, then back to her town, where she stopped at a store to buy a dehydrator. Girl, like, please.

[B]

Girl, please.

[A]

Okay. Two months later, she hosted a lunch that ended up killing three of the guests. Circumstantial and phone evidence can, of course, be vague, especially if you're like, triangulating where somebody went. It can't necessarily prove they were doing what you're saying they're doing, but it looks pretty damning when you line it up with everything else. Investigator. Especially when she said she's never been foraging, but then she's on like an a foraging website. Website. She's like, searching for a forage.

[B]

I've never been foraging, but I know exactly the spots that are marked for me not to go if one were to forage. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I have been to those spots, but to do something else.

[B]

Right, but. Right, yeah. Okay.

[A]

So then they say, okay, well, here's a footage of you dumping a dehydrator at the dump four days after you poisoned all these people. And they were on their deathbed. They checked the dehydrator. Of course, there are trace of these poison mushrooms. Another wild thing. Remember when I said she. They searched her house, they took the tablet and they took several phones. So she had actually done, I think four factory resets on her phone since the lunch. And she had also replaced. She gave the police a phone that had the wrong SIM number in it. Like, or SIM card. It had a new SIM card or a different SIM card with a different phone number than the 11 everyone was familiar with. So she claimed she had accidentally given them the phone that, like, she wasn't her main number. And it's just all a little shady and Dicey. Whatever. Her lawyer argued like, well, in the footage you can see the phone laying out. It's not like she was hiding it, but it's like, okay, but to give your phone up and then it's like, not the right phone. Yeah, it's weird. So when they went through the factory reference reset log, they found that it had been reset multiple times. Once on the afternoon that police were in the home searching. And she had actually said to them, I need to go to the other room to make a private call to my lawyer. And they let her do that. And it was there that she reset the phone. The final factory reset was done remotely when the phone was in police custody already.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And on the stand they asked why she did that. And I guess she thought she was being funny or clever. And she was like, I wanted to see if those dummies like, had left the phone on. And it's like pranked.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Really? Yeah. And it's like, okay, well, we see you did it, so it's not like helping. I don't know.

[B]

I thought this story was going to be over the second they found the dehydrator at the dump. Like, it's like. Or whatever it was. I'm like, how are we still even asking questions?

[A]

Stop. I know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The trial was held in moral. Moral. Oh, God. This was one of the ones that red handed apparently got some for saying wrong.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Morwell, Victoria said Virginia. Well, that's wrong. That trial was held in Virginia. The trial was held in morwell, Victoria, approximately 45 minutes from Leangatha. The trial lasted approximately nine to 11 weeks, which was much longer than anticipated because, like, what you said said it sounded like a slam dunk. More than 50 witnesses testified.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Apparently this small town was so, like, bowled over by the number of people that their hotels were swamped with like, reporters and the jury and witnesses.

[B]

Imagine that poor small town, just like.

[A]

Oh, no, they were. They were thriving. Their coffee shop started selling mushroom tarts.

[B]

You know what?

[A]

I know, I know it's up. But I love Red handed was like, you gotta love Australian humor. I was like, that really is the most Australian thing I've ever heard. Where are.

[B]

You can shove a theme. Take it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's like, okay. And apparently they were selling out. You know, I mean, whatever.

[B]

Great. Good for them.

[A]

Yeah, good for them. So, yeah, they have this like, booming trial. It's like sensational. This is basically like the story. And it's in Australia. It's huge. I mean, I remember when this was happening And I remember feeling so sad when I first heard about it because I was like, that's terrible. Imagine accidentally poisoning all these people because they're like, nobody knew right at first until the trial really happened. And I just was like, oh, how devastating. And then, like, the more I read about it, I was like, oh, she doesn't seem particularly bothered that she killed three people, let alone, like, things are.

[B]

Clicking all of a sudden.

[A]

Yeah, she's more concerned that, like, I gotta get rid of this dehydrator, you know?

[B]

Oh, yeah, What a mess.

[A]

So, yeah, it is a mess. And the central issue at stake here was whether Aaron Patterson knowingly and deliberately served the death cat mushrooms or whether it was just a terrible accident, which is what she claimed. And I will say too, there is footage and I can't watch it again because it's so cringe. Cringy. It's horrible. It's her being stopped by reporters outside her house, which, not cool, but they're like, hey, tell us what's going on? And she starts this sort of like, performance, and she's like, crying, but not.

[B]

It's like a Chris Watts guy.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With Shanann Watts. It's similar vibes of, like, your whole body goes, ooh, this is not right. It's not right. It's fake.

[B]

Interesting. Okay.

[A]

And it's not done well.

[B]

She's saying anything.

[A]

Yeah, she's like, it's terrible what's happened. And at one point, one point, oh, my God, she goes like this. And she checks her hand to see if there are tears, and there's no tears. Like, it's really ominous. And you're watching this, like. And she's like. Like, it's so bad. And I'm like, you're not even good at pretend crying. It's. It's. It's startling to watch because it's really.

[B]

Well, I'm not gonna ask. I wanna. I wanna. I'm gonna let the story play out and.

[A]

Okay. I hope I. I hope. I hope you remember because I don't want to accidentally skip whatever it is.

[B]

No, no, you're good. I was about to totally take us on a turn, and I'm really trying to lock the in here. O.

[A]

There's a lot to discuss, but yeah, so it's like this fake crying and it's like this weird boohooing and, like, she's checking for tears. There's no tears. She's also, like, her stature is so odd. Like, she's just kind of standing there, like, crying and it's like, no. Typically if you're, like, upset and on camera, like, you're trying to, like, cover yourself, shield in some way.

[B]

It's trying to, like, hide that you're crying. Yeah.

[A]

Or stop. But it's, like, unnatural. It's really unnatural and, like, unsettling to watch. And basically she talks about herself the whole time. She's like, they were so good to me. I would never do anything to them. Like, it's like, okay, but they're dead. And you're saying like, oh. And then she mixes up which one survived. Like, she says the wrong name, and it's like, hello.

[B]

That's literally so twisted.

[A]

It's. It's. It's really terrible to watch. It feels terrible. Like, you just, like your whole body's, like, on edge watching it. It's not cute. So basically, the whole time she's claiming this was a terrible accident, and I can't believe that this happened and yada yada. So evidence showed that there was tension in the family before this lunch and that their relationships had somewhat deteriorated. Deteriorated over the years. So text messages were introduced in which Aaron referred to her in laws, her parents in law, Don and Gail and her ex, Simon Patterson, disparagingly. She was actually in a Facebook true crime. True crime Facebook group, boy called atw. No, she was in a Facebook true crime group about a different case called Kelly, Who's. Her name was Kelly Lane. It's a famous Australian true crime case. And during lockdown, she and four other members kind of splintered off into a separate group and would message each other regularly. Okay, so one message to another member from Aaron read, I've been hiding powdered mushrooms in everything, mixed it into chocolate brownies. Yesterday, the kids had no idea. Idea.

[B]

Girl, girl, come on, like.

[A]

And then she's like, I've never owned a dehydrator, but, oh, yeah, I forgot.

[B]

I used it for multiple recipes for multiple nights on multiple children and people.

[A]

And told people about it.

[B]

You know, the confidence is astounding. I know. It's like. Or like the complete. Like, it's like. It's like you got to be delusional.

[A]

You have to be. You have to be on a different planet, really, to either think you can.

[B]

Get away with it or really believe your own situation. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, to really, like, be that self involved. It's. It's disturbing. So she had messaged these people, like, about not only powdered brownies, but she'd also talked about her in laws. And in one message, Aaron Called the family a lost cause and said basically them nothing was particularly damning. Like, it's not like anything that you would be shocked to write. Read somebody write about their toxic relationship with an animal.

[B]

They're mean sometimes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, oh, they suck them. Okay, well, it doesn't, that doesn't really. It's not as damning as it might sound. But of course, like in context of, hey, they all died, it's a little.

[B]

More important, especially for looking at everything I'm writing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Then you kind of got to do a little, you know, preemptive, like, how is this gonna look?

[B]

The planning blows my mind. It would be no planning I was parenting paranoid about.

[A]

But so the wild part too is that the first time she was like looking at those mushrooms, it was like a season. It was like, well before she ever actually foraged for mushrooms. So this has been like an ongoing thing. Like the idea must have entered her mind a long time ago. Yeah, the actual lunch they said took about two weeks of preparation that she had like been planning or talking about it. But yeah, this seems to have been like a kind of long standing plan of hers in some way or another. So this showed like the frustration she had with her in laws which, you know, goes to show. Oh, she also claimed like, oh, we have a great relationship, everything's fine, they're wonderful to me. And it's like, well, you're clearly not telling the whole story because you're on talking to your friends about how much you hate them.

[B]

He's like, ah, they're, they're, they're great. I'm just gonna kill them. What?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, they suck.

[B]

There are a lot worse in laws that are also not being killed, by the way.

[A]

Like, yeah, yeah, that's the thing. It's like, you don't have to murder about it, you know, like, you don't have to go that far.

[B]

You don'.

[A]

Have to do that part, you know, like Jesus Christ.

[B]

And just even block them on the.

[A]

Phone, even fantasizing about it. I'm sure people do, but you never actually do it, you know, I mean, I don't to clarify, but. But I'm sure some people do. And it's like, wow, this takes it to such a new level. Especially if you've been planning this for a long time and especially like including the aunt and uncle, like, what the did they do? It's just a lot. Also, she claimed like lunches like this were normal and everyone in the family. Family was like, no, no, no, no, sorry, not. It Was not normal. Nope. So Simon Patterson testified, the ex. He said he believed Aaron had attempted to poison him on multiple occasions in the past. Evidence showed Simon had previously become critically ill after eating meals prepared by Aaron. He had even been in a coma at one point. And he had lost a significant portion of his bowel that had to be removed. And two times his family was told they needed to prepare for his imminent at death.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So she really did try. Allegedly.

[B]

Literally, like, medically getting yourself, like, bowels removed is not a light surgery.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So charges relating to Simon were eventually dropped. And I think people presume this is. They wanted the final case to be very clear cut, not like, oh, a year ago, she potentially tried to poison her ex. Like, they wanted to focus on the lunch and say, this is what happened. The end. So now let's get to the cancer claim because, like, first of all, what's happening here? What are the motives? Why did she do this to begin with?

[B]

That was what I was going to ask you a while ago, and I said I. I don't. I didn't want.

[A]

Ah, okay.

[B]

My thought. Did she even have cancer?

[A]

No, of course not.

[B]

So, okay, so I had whatever shred of pity I could have left when I thought maybe she did have cancer, because I'm like, okay, family annihilator. You think that you're not going to be here and you just don't want anyone to suffer, and you think you're putting them out of their misery or something once you're gone. Which gross on the cockiness anyway. But, okay, so she just felt like killing.

[A]

Nope. You'll find out. There's more of a motive, I believe.

[B]

Oh, okay. Now that I didn't see coming Christine.

[A]

Okay, well, you just thought she was like, I guess I'll kill them.

[B]

Yeah, I thought she was like, I'm just gonna use it as the reason in case anyone asks, with the cancer.

[A]

Oh, no, the cancer had nothing to do with the actual murder. They just. That was just how they believe she got them to come to the lunch. She said, I have big, big news. She also didn't think Ian would survive. Right. So she thought, everyone in this room is going to be dead. They're not gonna be able to say, oh, she told us she has cancer.

[B]

I thought she was going to use it as her own alibi when she, like, why? Everyone had gathered. It's like, I was going to tell them, which also would have been crazy because the doctors would just be like, she doesn't have cancer.

[A]

Well, so that she did. So they. They go, well, hang on. Ian is now awake. He claims that you told everybody you had cancer. And she's like, yeah, yeah, you know, I. I did have a fear of. I did have a cancer scare.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And you're on the stand. Yeah, dude. Like, good luck with this one. Good luck. Walk yourself right off the cliff here. Because she says, says, oh, yeah, I. I had this fear, and I actually had a schedule. There's actually a reason why I lied about this. And they're like, okay, well, we just went through your medical records. There's no history of cancer, so explain. She says, well, actually, the reason I lied about that is because I was really embarrassed about what was actually going on. I was gonna go get gastric bypass surgery, and I was too embarrassed to tell my in laws about it, so I lied and said it was cancer. But I. I knew I would need their help when I had this surgery. So they're like, okay, weird that you waited till trial to tell us that.

[B]

Also, like, so you were embarrassed to tell them, but you knew you would need their help during the surgery. You're gonna have to tell them eventually. And also, like, that would be crazy to tell people I have cancer.

[A]

And then how do I tell my kids?

[B]

Oh, my.

[A]

I was just embarrassing.

[B]

And such a frenetic.

[A]

It's a mess plan. It's a mess. Yes. And so she testified she was too embarrassed about her gastric bypass surgery to tell her ex in laws.

[B]

And so much more embarrassing to lie about cancer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What are you talking about? Oh, I'm embarrassed that I, you know, I'm losing weight, like, and you were.

[A]

Planning to tell your kids about it, Remember? She met with them to ask how she should tell her kids that she has cancer. Like, hello? And so they asked like, okay, well, where. And this is when, you know, her lawyers, like, just piss. Like, just pissed off because, like, she's just going rogue. Okay? They ask like, oh, well, you said you had plans, so where did you have your consult? Like, where did you have your consult for the surgery? She goes, oh, it's this med spa called Enrich. And apparently the prosecutor entering court runs out of the courtroom because he's like, I got to go check this immediately. Like, I got to go check, because this is coming up during trial. Like, this is not something we had information about. So he runs, runs out, figures out Enrich, literally does, like, Botox. They don't do surgery. Okay? So she's just full spa. And I went, yeah, exactly. Like, they don't even do it's like a surgery, you know, and they don't do anything even close. So she's really herself here. She's on the stand for way too long, of course, because she's convinced she's some sort of outsmarting genius.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

She eventually is, like, cornered into admitting that she lied about. About never foraging mushrooms. She lied about never owning a food dehydrator. And when they were like, why, she was like, well, I was just panicked because I realized, like, people were dying and I didn't want to get in trouble and like, it was an accident, but I was too scared to say anything.

[B]

What?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay, sure.

[A]

After six to seven days of deliberation, the jury returned unanimous guilty verdicts. Aaron Patterson was convicted of three counts of murder, one count of attempted murder. That was for Ian. And the sentencing occurred in the Supreme Court of Victoria before Justice Christopher Beal, who described the crimes as an enormous betrayal involving substantial premeditation. By the way, remember, she made individual beef Wellingtons, basically so she could portion out how much of the toxins everyone was getting. And then her plate was the only one that didn't make her sick and was on a different color. Right. I mean, it all is just such a bad look. Including her, like, false story about getting everyone together. Her cancer.

[B]

I mean, literally, not an inch of this feels good.

[A]

No, none of it. None of it feels like, like. No, none of it even feels close to being part of the truth. Aaron Patterson was sentenced to three life sentences for the murders of Gail, Don and Heather. 25 years for the attempted murder of Ian Wilkinson. There was a non parole period of 33 years is set. And that means with time served, Aaron Patterson may apply for parole in 2056. And she'll be about 82 years old at that point. So. Aaron Patterson has formally lodged an appeal against her convictions. Prosecutors have also appealed, arguing the sentence was manifestly inadequate. In the meantime, Aaron is still in prison. She is actually incarcerated at the infamous Dame Phyllis Frost center, which sounds scary. And, yeah, it's a maximum security women's prison in Melbourne, and she reportedly spends up to 22 hours per day in her cell due to safety concerns because she's so notorious. And reportedly was even accused of tampering with an inmate's food, of course.

[B]

Wow. It's like, how much can I get away with here?

[A]

Yeah. So now for the motive. Basically all they could come up with. Not. Not really. I mean, not that anything's like enough to. To kill a bunch of people over. This is like a mass murder here. But like, you know, maybe if it's like oh, sexual abuse or something like that enraged you or whatever, it's like okay, maybe I can understand. But all they can figure out is that in 2022, Simon had filed a tax return saying they were separated and they were. But Aaron was livid because she had actually when her mother had passed, had received a 2 million Australian dollar inheritance and she had loaned a lot of money to her in laws, to her brothers and sisters in law to build houses with no interest. She had like really helped her in laws out given them a lot of resources and money and now the way that he filed taxes, basically her over, like just totally her over. So she was livid, understandably. And she confronted him and he said oh, it was a mistake, I can fix it. But apparently she was was like no you and then went after him for child support. But that backfired because a child support agency said like okay, well Simon, you've got to stop paying for the kids private school. You've got to stop paying for this. And you actually are now required to send a forty dollar payment per month per child. Which like is nothing unclear why it's so low. It could be because of her inheritance and that she had a lot more money than him. That's my, I guess I don't know the details but essentially now she's screwed and she's getting 80 bucks a month and he's not. No longer. She had to pull her kids from private school, he's no longer paying for anything. And she apparently asked her parents in law to mediate but they said they didn't want to get involved in anything financial. So she basically felt like they were like, they were like enabling their son, you know what I mean?

[B]

Like which could she have hope that everyone was going to get together at this dinner so she could like corner them until like peer mediating their conversation or anything?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

She'd already tried that for the past year or two and they just were like we're not going to get involved in the finances. But they were doting with the grandkids. They were very close with the grandkids. They had a great relationship, they were very loving. They were still really kind to her. Although Gail didn't invite her to her 70th birthday party. And I guess Aaron was absolutely incensed by this. But like think about the ego. You've got to have to be that furious someone didn't invite you to their 70th. Your ex in law, whatever.

[B]

I mean so petty.

[A]

Get a grip, dude. And like, even Gail claim, like, oops, it was an accident. I'm sorry. Of course we want you to be there. And like, she just was not having it. And it's like, it looked like you were looking for a reason.

[B]

Dude, this is so different that I thought she just had cancer and was going to just kill everybody. So everyone died together. That's as simple as I thought. This was going to be so much.

[A]

More, in effect, nefarious. No, no. So they wouldn't. They wouldn't involve themselves in their son's like, financial stuff. And they were like, listen, that's not just fair. I mean, fair exactly. Like if your ex. Daughter in law is like, I need you to. I mean, this just messy. So Simon claimed it was miscommunication. She just was not having it. Especially after she had loaned his family like, hundreds of thousands of dollars. But it's like, then don't do that. Like, people say, like, if you're gonna loan money, money don't. To people. Especially, like in your life, like friends and family, do not expect to get it back because if you do, that can cause such a rift. Like anybody whose family has, like, donated money to each other, I've just always heard horror stories about this. Like, years later, there's disagreements about how much it was or what they agreed to, or the terms of it, or whether it was a gift or a loan, you know, and it's like, I've just always heard, if you're going to loan money to someone, do it in the goodness of your heart.

[B]

It's never coming back.

[A]

And if it comes back, it's a great surprise, you know, because, like, this is just a recipe for disaster.

[B]

Yeah. If you're gifting money, you're giving money.

[A]

Like, just if you're loaning to family. Yeah.

[B]

Just assume it's not coming back to you. Yeah.

[A]

And from what I can tell the family, I mean, she didn't charge them interest, I assume. I like to think someone paid her back. I don't know. I don't. I never got the vibe that, like, they stole all this money from her and never gave it back. I think she just felt really, like, taken advantage of, even though that wasn't necessarily what was happening. Happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she was like. She took it personally and like, you know, this is her ex and she felt like she was being left out of the family.

[B]

Just a messy breakup.

[A]

Really messy. And she made it so much worse. So. Yeah, that's. That's a really long one, but that is the. The mushroom murders of Australia.

[B]

I think that's one of my favorite stories recently that you've told.

[A]

It's a. It's a doozy. I mean, it only wrapped up this year, a couple months ago, so it's.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Very, very new. Happened in 23.

[B]

I never heard about it.

[A]

I remember like feeling so bad for her and then like reading into and going, oh, someone did this. Like. Yeah, Yeah. A whole house full of people just annihilated. Horrible.

[B]

Wow. A mushroom grew in my yard yesterday.

[A]

Go to Bing.

[B]

Not a death cap.

[A]

Search I naturalist. Don't let. Honestly, I didn't eat it.

[B]

No, I think it came from him. I think his fertilizer is giving me mushrooms now.

[A]

Ew.

[B]

I know. It was a pretty like magazine looking mushroom.

[A]

Was it one of those white ones? Yeah. Yep, yep.

[B]

That's. That's is a poopy mushroom.

[A]

I have no clue.

[B]

I don't know. But it's. It. It popped up exactly where he goes to the bathroom. I was like, is he doing this?

[A]

So it doesn't appear to be a death cap, but I would not test that theory.

[B]

Certainly I would not want to eat it since it came from.

[A]

No matter what.

[B]

No matter what. I'm just going to consider it a death cap. It feels.

[A]

Yes. Famous.

[B]

The experience.

[A]

Yeah. Death cap Junior.

[B]

I do think that was one of my favorite stories you've told in a while. Good job.

[A]

Oh, well, I'm glad It was a poisonous beef Wellington. Very.

[B]

I mean, you had me beef Wellington and I know. And ended in a mystery. So my two favorite things.

[A]

Dark stuff. Thank you everybody, so much for listening. This may be my last episode depending on who broke into my house. Hello. Surprise. Yeah, I'm going to go look around and Blaze texted me during the recording. I'm on the plane. So, like, clearly that was not him. It's not him.

[B]

Well, hope you make it.

[A]

And I wonder if any of it could be heard. Like, I. I do wonder if you can hear it because it was pretty.

[B]

Loud, but I didn't hear anything.

[A]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe it's too quiet to hear, but enjoy your. I think everything's all right.

[B]

Enjoy your snowy day. I know it's snowing over there. Very jealous of you.

[A]

Thank you. Yeah, it's gloomy.

[B]

So jealous of you. I'll go hang out in the sun.

[A]

Oh, it's sitting your mushroom garden.

[B]

I so far I've got one in the collection and I'm sure collect them.

[A]

Oh, good.

[B]

For the trash, of course.

[A]

Oh, okay. I was like, who are you? Linda, for my compost and that's about it.

[B]

All right. Thanks everyone and we'll see you next week.

[A]

And Merry Christmas.

[B]

That's Merry Christmas. Why we drink Discover Mercer Lab's Museum of Art and Technology in New York City where creatures creativity meets innovation. This holiday season, immerse yourself in a world of interactive exhibits, digital masterpieces and unforgettable experiences. Whether you're with family, friends or exploring solo, Mercer Labs invites you to see art and technology in a whole new light. Get your tickets [e-mail] and redefine your museum experience.

[A]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now, now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half the price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means half day, you know. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speed slow hacker 35 gigabytes of networks taxes and fees extra. Cmo.com.