E468 MySpace Siren Calls and Sit Down Comedians

Summary

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And That's Why We Drink – Episode 468: "MySpace Siren Calls and Sit Down Comedians"

Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Date: February 1, 2026
Podcast Theme: True crime and the paranormal, with banter-filled personal stories and lots of nostalgia.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Christine and Em take listeners for a nostalgic deep dive into MySpace days, reminisce about cringeworthy teen internet behavior, and swap stories of adolescent longing and heartbreak. The hosts set the stage with playful banter before diving into their signature content: Em covers the haunting of the Cripple Creek (Teller County) Jail, and Christine breaks down the controversial case of Angelika Graswald and the kayak death of Vincent Viafore. Along the way, listeners get a blend of humor, pop culture throwbacks, sincere reflections, and critical takes on interpersonal and legal missteps.

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1. Opening Banter & Nostalgia (02:26 – 24:46)

Key Discussion Points

• Teenage Branding & Beverages:

  • Christine and Em recall old vitamin water bottles with snarky labels (“we know you’re stalking your ex right now” [03:51]) and how such quirky marketing defined their youth.
  • MySpace era's obsession with being "so random" and how those formative years shaped their senses of humor and social media habits.

• MySpace Memories:

  • Coding personal pages, agonizing over "Top 8" friends, and the all-important "profile song."
  • Christine admits to featuring Glenn Miller Orchestra and Billy Talent tracks to “send a message” and be “perceived in a certain way” [07:03, 07:44], while Em reminisces about Dashboard Confessional and Cartel.
  • Both hosts discuss how MySpace personality quizzes became a surrogate diary: “Every time I said, when was the last time you cried? I’d be like, last night.” (Christine, 08:28)
  • Yearning for attention from crushes, hoping secret messages would be interpreted (“I just wanted to be perceived… wanted to be seen, but only by a crush” [08:40–08:51]).

Notable Quotes

• “I just wanted people to… I just wanted to be perceived in a way, a certain way.”
  -- Christine (08:40)
• “I would read my crush’s posts…” – Em (10:15)
• “I’m literally siren calling this guy into my atmosphere…”
  -- Christine (11:11)

Memorable Moment

Christine’s tale of using a ringtone at her school assembly to get her crush’s attention, leading Em to joke about “siren calling” boys via public audio (11:11).

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2. The Haunted Cripple Creek Jail (Em’s Paranormal Story) (29:45 – 64:20)

Key Discussion Points

• Old Teller County Jail/Cripple Creek/Outlaws and Lawmen Museum:

  • History: Built in 1901 after the Gold Rush influx, original wood jail repeatedly burned down, leading to a brick “state of the art” facility [33:56–34:01].
  • Jail Structure:
    • 14 cells, originally meant for six people each (!) – “6.5 by 9 ft for six people. That’s… a rug” (Em, 43:12).
    • Female cells upstairs; all shared one (ostensibly for all) lone toilet.
    • Notorious for overcrowding, lack of privacy, and terrible sanitation.
    • “State of the art”: Had electricity, one shower, and indoor plumbing—sort of (it worked poorly).
  • Inmates: Most crimes were mild (sex work, larceny, public drunkenness, gambling) — “They were all just a little drunk or a little horny, you know what I’m saying?” (Em, 39:26).
    • Celebrity prisoner: Boxer Jack Dempsey stayed for petty larceny.

• Ghostly Activity:

  • Reported phenomena: Voices, EVPs, heavy breathing, cold spots on the infamous catwalk, unexplained door slams, keys jingling, footsteps pacing as if on patrol [55:29–57:01].
  • Apparitions:
    • Rosie the Matron: Seen monitoring rooms, confiscating items that appear mysteriously (marbles, personal effects) [58:24, 58:52].
    • Male Officer Ghost: Seen trying to enter after hours, confused employee as a living person—then vanishes [60:50].
    • Children’s Spirits: Children were once imprisoned with their mothers; “very sad, but they’ve been seen upstairs looking out of windows” [62:52].

• Historical Oddities:

  • The jail was decommissioned in the 1990s—“We were alive when this closed!” (51:55)—because it lacked a rec yard.
  • Reopened as a museum in 2007.
    • “You can walk in and sit in the solitary confinement cell… Imagine if you’d been in prison there—now it’s a museum.” (55:10)

Notable Quotes

• “They were all just a little drunk or a little horny…” — Em (39:26)
• “You’re standing in a 6.5 by 9 room with six sheets hanging from the ceiling.” — Em (43:44)
• “At that point you might as well just be lying in the hammock and sometimes someone’s standing up to stretch their legs.”
  – Christine (44:10)

Memorable Moment

Christine's riffing on luxury items being confiscated by Rosie the ghost matron:
“Who goes into prison with Jimmy Choos and a Birkin bag?” (59:45)

Timestamps

• Jail History/Gold Rush: 34:01–37:03
• Jail Conditions: 42:08–47:37
• Ghosts & Paranormal: 55:29–64:20

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3. True Crime Deep Dive: Angelika Graswald & Vincent Viafore (Christine’s Story) (67:14 – 119:16)

Key Discussion Points

• Background:

  • Angelika (Latvia-born, multitalented, outdoorsy) and Vincent (project manager, “party animal,” 46, two kids) [68:42–69:42].
  • Engaged fives months after meeting, both twice-divorced, “handsey, cutesy couple.”
  • Plan: Kayak excursion to Bannerman Island for engagement (and racy) photos, 2015.

• Incident:

  • Conditions on Hudson River deteriorate; Vincent falls in, lacks lifejacket.
  • Angelika’s 911 call: “He’s getting further away and he’s not going to make it, he’s going to drown.” [79:14]
  • Angelika rescued, Vincent disappears, presumed drowned.

• Investigation & Interrogation:

  • Police suspicious of her “calmness” in ambulance—Em & Christine criticize this as misogynistic and narrow-minded [81:00].
  • Odd social media posts in days after (cartwheels, cigars, shots) cast suspicion.
  • Police seize on her mention of kayak “plug” missing (a drainage plug, not a fatal flaw).
  • Christine details the language/cultural barriers: “She just thought, Oh, I have to go to the station…” (91:54).
  • Interrogated for 11 hours, police use manipulative tactics (“it’s like therapy for you”—Detective Decordo, 95:10).

• Confession and Charges:

  • Under duress, Angelika admits she “felt good” when he was gone, but never says she killed or intended harm.
  • Police attempt to spin her admissions into a murder or subconscious killing theory; Christine and Em call this a stretch [106:42–107:19].
  • Body found—no sign of foul play, but ME marks “cause of death: kayak drain plug intentionally removed by other” [112:24].
  • Kayak expert testifies that missing plug was insignificant, and police demo was forcibly staged [114:28].

• Resolution:

  • Angelika pleads to criminally negligent homicide (four years), released after 16 months.
    • “She thought by speaking and telling them everything, she would clear it up... Boy, was I naive.” (118:16)
  • Vincent’s family continues blaming her, though evidence for intentional harm is tenuous.

Notable Quotes

• “It’s like therapy for you.”
  -- Detective (with skepticism), recounted by Christine (95:10)
• “She just thought, Oh, I have to go to the station… She just did everything she thought she was supposed to do.”
  -- Christine (91:54)
• “I wanted him dead and now he’s gone, and I’m okay with that.” (Christine, quoting Angelika under stress, 111:36)
• “This was a tragic accident, in my opinion.”
  — Christine (119:09)
• “I am exactly where you are, Christine. I am on board with you. That’s crazy.”
  -- Em (119:05)

Memorable Moments

• Christine’s deep frustration with police and ME’s logic:
  “The coroner’s report is marked as homicide… ‘kayak drain plug intentionally removed by other’.” (112:24)
• Authentic moments of empathy:
  “Imagine going through everything she’s gone through… and now they’re holding her, where she’s trying to be nothing but cordial…” — Em (95:57–96:20)

Timestamps

• Case Setup & Bannerman Island: 67:14–74:03
• Incident & Immediate Aftermath: 74:03–81:00
• Police Focus & Interrogation: 81:00–107:19
• Legal Outcome & Reflection: 107:19–119:16

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4. Notable Quotes & Running Jokes

• “I just wanted to be perceived in a certain way.” — Christine (08:40)
• “They were all just a little drunk or a little horny, you know what I’m saying?” — Em (39:26)
• “Who goes into prison with Jimmy Choos and a Birkin bag?” — Christine (59:45)
• “More like Detective Farto.” — Christine, in a fit of frustration over police incompetence (95:35)

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5. Timestamps for Key Segments

• MySpace Nostalgia: 02:26–24:46
• Why We Drink: 24:42–27:01
  • Christine: Thankful for her therapist (“Just felt especially thankful for my therapist…” 24:43)
  • Em: Waiting for lost packages, drinking leftover Crystal Light (24:49)
• Paranormal Segment: Cripple Creek Jail: 29:45–64:20
• True Crime Segment: Graswald/Kayak Case: 67:14–119:16

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6. Episode Tone & Language

Playful, irreverent, self-deprecating, and emotionally honest. The hosts alternate between silliness (quips about MySpace dramas, jailhouse Birkin bags), sharp social critique (law enforcement technique, gender roles), and sincere empathy (for victims, the wrongfully accused, and therapists everywhere).

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7. Suggested Listening & Listener Takeaway

• If you loved:

  • Millennial nostalgia, heart-on-sleeve true crime storytelling, and ghost story tours with a dose of skepticism and dark humor.
  • Reflections on how media, culture, and systems can shape narratives—often to the detriment of justice or personal growth.

• Listener Note:

  • The episode is a great window into youthful yearning, emotional memory, and the perils of snap judgment—whether it’s about teen quizzes, prison hauntings, or a woman on trial for her fiancé’s accidental death.

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8. Closing (119:16 – End)

• Plugs for the website, where listeners can find all episodes and transcripts.
• Lighthearted sign-off: “Add us on MySpace.” (119:48)
• Tease for future Patreon content: MySpace Top 8 politics discussion (119:59–120:16).

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That’s why they drink—nostalgia, injustice, ghosts, and sometimes… just package delays and cold IPA.

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

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[B]

Bros. What up players?

[A]

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[B]

Cold brewski I know, I know, I know. I hope you do.

[A]

This wasn't even the plan, but I literally have a beer next to me.

[B]

I can I guess the flavor because it's all I have.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Like, would I see a can of alcohol? I. I'm assuming it's flavored with something and I'm always curious what the color. Like, what's the most popular?

[A]

Okay, okay. Interesting idea. Because I do like that. Okay, let's cover up. I'll cover up. It's a Rhine. Guys local love this stuff. Okay, I'm covering up, like the name of it.

[B]

Couldn't tell you a single thing about what flavors they even offer. So when I see green, I'm going to assume it's like a lime situation, but I feel like that's too easy. I feel like is there but green also to me. I feel citrusy. There's.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's something citrusy. I'm going to go grapefruit.

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[B]

I told you lime was too easy.

[A]

But then it says log off, so I think I'm gonna go away now. It says, log off. Catch the wave.

[B]

It's like a weird fortune cookie. It was like, actually, stop what you're fudgeing doing.

[A]

Okay? Like, I've been drinking vitamin water. And the on the P ones that I like, it says, we know you're stalking your ex right now or something. And I'm like, why do you put that on every bottle? It's so weird. I'm above that now. Stop reminding me that it's an option.

[B]

I feel like someone who didn't leave their, like, 2006 party days wrote that.

[A]

Yeah, that feels like me. It feels like I wrote it, like, in 2006 and then, like, sent it forward to myself. It's just like, I'm like, why do you put that on there? That's so toxic and strange and like, maybe I am. It's none of your fucking business, you know?

[B]

I mean, I get why they did it. I. It was the only reason. What was that stupid was it? Remember back when there was that phase where, like, it was like, not Vitamin Water, but it was a brand like that, but every single one of their rappers had, like, a blurb that, like, was so off the charts weird and random, like XXX or something.

[A]

Oh, I missed this.

[B]

No, I'm just saying. XXX water. It was vitamin water. Okay. Vitamin.

[A]

Yeah, they have a quippy, A weird, stupid quippy thing on it.

[B]

Yeah. But each of their flavors was, like, unnecessary. Like, the, the writing or the description for the flavor was unnecessarily ridiculous.

[A]

And they were, like, long. Like, I remember the yellow ones just being like, paragraphs.

[B]

I, I feel like it was like the first round of people really trying something with, like, media marketing and, like, that.

[A]

Marketing.

[B]

Yeah, that for our generation would work because I remember buying that stuff just so I could go read what they all had to say and collecting the labels because they odd something crazy on them.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Well, I was never. My parents just bought it at Costco and I was like, all right, I guess I gotta live with these stupid blurbs for the rest of my life.

[B]

I'm just saying, if I got a product and it said, I bet you're stalking your ex right now, I would hold on to that for a second.

[A]

Just to show others, like, bothers me is that I thought, that's funny. And then the other five bottles had the same thing. And I was like, can we, like, come up with something a little more clever? Like, like, can we mix it up? You know, like, I'm not always stalking my ex, but if I am, I'm drinking a vitamin water.

[B]

Paid promotion. No, I mean, it probably is true.

[A]

I drank so much of it in high school, I feel like it's probably like a sensory memory, you know?

[B]

I, I do. I, I, I miss the, the days of yore when everything was, like, so random. I know. That's cringe now.

[A]

Oh, my God, So quirky.

[B]

I so.

[A]

Oh, yeah, of course we did. We were MySpace kids, man. We loved. We're like, oh, do it. DIY. My page. Didn't think. Thought you'd never ask. Well, here I go, coding.

[B]

What was your favorite feature on your MySpace page?

[A]

Oh, my God, I'm such a dork.

[B]

What was your song? At some point you had to like. What was one of the songs you had as your, your personalized song?

[A]

I don't want to tell you.

[B]

Why? Fall Out Boy. What was it?

[A]

I feel like I have to prove it to not prove it, but I feel like I have to.

[B]

You don't. Whatever you're about to say, I will believe. Was it like, Barney or something?

[A]

No, that was probably yours. I had the Glenn Miller Orchestra for a while.

[B]

That's so German. That feels German. I don't know why it's not.

[A]

It's like World War II, USA. I don't know.

[B]

It's like German Bay, though. What are you talking.

[A]

No, you like big band. Us like, big band band. Like Glenn Miller, you know. He sings like, the song was the one that goes like, it. Let me see if I can. He sings in the mood.

[B]

Oh. To fight the. For the nation. What?

[A]

Oh, I had. I had Moonlight Serenade, I think Moonlight Serenade.

[B]

Well, here, we'll put a sample. Here, we'll put a sample.

[A]

But then I also had actually. But that was just, like, for fun. Z's. Because I thought it was funny.

[B]

Because it was so random.

[A]

Because it was so random. Em. Like, it's so cringe. But the one that I actually had because I was trying to send a message was Billy Talent. I had Billy Talent on there. I had all the most dramatic ones. Like, like, go. Like, literally. They're like, drive over me with a truck. Like, I'm gonna kill my. Like, they were really, really dark and emo. And I was like, yeah, now everyone will understand. But then the. The thing feature of Vice Space, which was your first question, was when they had those. This is so embarrassing. Those quizzes that were like personality quizzes. And every time I said, when was the last time you cried? I'd be like, last night.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like.

[A]

I'd be like, I want my crush to ask me why or who.

[B]

Who just texted you. You'll never know, Winky.

[A]

Yeah, you wish you knew. And it would. Was like my stepmom. It was like.

[B]

It was never.

[A]

I never had good. I just loved it. And I just wanted people to. I just wanted to be perceived in a way, a certain way.

[B]

Wanted it to be seen, but only by a crush. It was like, for people who don't.

[A]

Know, that's all I cared about.

[B]

It was like, imagine Instagram has, I don't know, links to surveys and. Or you could post.

[A]

Yeah, you can.

[B]

You could post them and fill them out on, like, your story. I mean, this is. I'm trying to make it Instagram so people know what I'm.

[A]

I do have that, though, where it's like, insert your. Like, here. My favorite. Whatever. You can, like, post your story spots. But there was not the same.

[B]

But it was like. It was unnecessarily long. There was, like, 200 questions on these.

[A]

Sometimes scroll for, like, pages.

[B]

It became homework. And you were doing that instead of your homework.

[A]

Oh, 100%. And I was like, I do. That's how people like you and I with our ADHD were like, okay. I know I can do things. It's just I have to be really motivated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But people would fill it out. And the really, the only goal ever of those was you had to hope and assume that the person you were obsessed with was also obsessed with you. And reading every single of the 200 prompts so that they could get to know you. And then I am you about it later. But it never happened.

[A]

It never happened. I mean, maybe it did for some people. It certainly never happened.

[B]

Well, it felt like it to me because I know the people I was obsessed with. I was reading their prom. So I just prayed to God I wasn't alone and someone.

[A]

But it's not fair because I was liking boys and they don't post shit like that. So I should have just known at the time, just commit to girls now and then. You got the back and forth, but I just got the like, oh, They've updated their MySpace and Tom is still their only person in their top eight. So I don't get to know anything.

[B]

Well, I would read. I would read my crushes posts.

[A]

Oh, my God. One time. One time. It worked. One time I had a crush on this guy and he was way out of my, like, social league. Like, he was complete. And one time he, like, posted. Oh, my God, it was like the best day of my life, truly, as far as, like, a high from that kind of thing. He posted, like, heard this song in assembly today. It was my ringtone or something. He's like, I can't believe Christine or someone had Cold War Kids as their song. Like, I'll, like, I. And, like, posted something. And then the next day I was like, I'm. Am I, like, having a fever dream? Like, he posted this weird, mysterious post. And the next day, during history, it was like three weeks left in class and he sat next to me and everyone was like, why are you sitting over there? And I was like, oh, my God, it's happening. But that was when I was in the midst of all my hexing. And so it ended up backfiring on me a little bit.

[B]

I see.

[A]

I was gonna say it worked for a minute. I was like, I'm literally siren calling this guy into my atmosphere to hear.

[B]

Your ringtone at assembly. That's what.

[A]

And then he, like, wrote a post about it and was like, I just.

[B]

Know you were in the AV room just wiring the speakers to pull your way.

[A]

I was just at, like, the nurses station. Like, she has a PA in here, right? I can just kind of PA out to everyone.

[B]

You're Just holding your ringtone, you're calling yourself and playing on the speaker.

[A]

It's so cringey because he was a BlackBerry. And I was like, oh, my God. And then. Oh, and then he posted on my wall. And I remember I stood up from the computer, my chair back, like, you have walked out of the room, disassociated for a while, came back and went, I must have dreamed that. And it was like, still there. Like he had posted on my wall. And I was like, he's like, you have good taste in music. And I was like, we're getting married. It's happening. And then. And yeah, then it didn't. Let's just say it didn't work out. Nothing happened, man. But I knew I could hex at that point. And I realized that's a dangerous power to hold.

[B]

That's a gift. And a curse.

[A]

And a curse.

[B]

Yeah. Well, welcome to. And that's why I drink. Everybody.

[A]

Usually that's like a Yappy Hour segment, but today we're just going, oh, how about during the Yappy Hour we do one of those quizzes?

[B]

Oh, that'd be fun.

[A]

That would be fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or we will look at MySpace layouts or something. I don't know.

[B]

No, easy, that's your millennial. If I want to go travel to MySpace.

[A]

What, do you think my crush will hear it?

[B]

Do you think your crush will hear. No, I don't think. I know. Allison won't. So we could just go back to our rancid 16 year old ways.

[A]

That's fine. I'll think about Henry then.

[B]

Okay, perfect. I'm thinking, to Sydney. Hey, girl. Where are we? Oh, God, now I'm just thinking about Sydney. Anyway, that was nice, wasn't it?

[A]

Wow. Trip down memory lane. That was the. Yeah. What was your song? I forget you've told me before.

[B]

Oh, well, I mean, mine switched all the time. I had a lot of phases.

[A]

I did too. Like Bob Marley or some.

[B]

No. Although I did have a Bob Marley phase.

[A]

I feel like I see that in.

[B]

You, I think, because I. I hung out with a lot of people who were like those Baja hoodies. And they listened to it and I was like. And so I listened to it mainly because it reminded me of the memories of.

[A]

That, like, fits one of your vibes. Yeah.

[B]

Well, no, it doesn't. But I mean, it fits your.

[A]

One of your aesthetic vibes that I know about. Like the hoodies and stuff. Like, it fits that I was a shallow perspective.

[B]

I was a college kid who hung out with a lot of stoners we went to a lot of hookah loungers which in my mind I combined as a smoking stoner thing. There was a lot of Bob Marley around me and I was like a dubstep kid and one of Bob Marley's sons put out dubstep. So I listen to that. So anyway, sorry. My song was the one I'm I think of immediately was either honestly by Cartel or. Or when good. When Sydney and I ended it was Dashboard Confessional. Stolen, of course.

[A]

Oh, I'm so. I'm so jealous that you like started and stopped something. I never got to do that part.

[B]

Oh no, no, no. Let's be clear. It was like a very. Like what you see on tv. Like we're talking and obviously there's tension. We kissed once, but then never spoke about it. And then I think she got freaked out about. That's so much finding out. Cuz a lot of people were starting to wonder about us. And this was at a time in.

[A]

The world when so horrible.

[B]

You covered that up. So when people start asking questions, she brought broke up with me.

[A]

You're breaking my heart right now.

[B]

And then I listened to Dashboard Confessional for like a year and a half.

[A]

Yeah, you had the best reason to like. I didn't. I was sitting there going, why is no one listening to me in assembly playing my music in my phone. But you had an actual like kiss out of it. Boy.

[B]

You know what's wild though?

[A]

Heartbreak.

[B]

I literally disassociated the kiss and I totally like. And by the way, Sydney, we're still friends. This is not. It's not weird. We've discussed.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

We've discussed at this point. Which was lovely because we finally got to tell each other years later as grown adults. Like, I was in love.

[A]

You need closure.

[B]

And then she was like, I was in love with you. And I'm like, oh, like 14 year old me can finally be put to rest.

[A]

That dashboard can you better have gone back to yourself in your mind's eye and been like, you will never fudgeing believe what's going to happen.

[B]

I did. I tried to go back there and I was like, it's happening. Just like you were saying. Well, so I apparently the first time and I think only time we kissed, I thought this can't be real. And so I just blacked it out. She had to tell me years later she's like, we for sure kissed. And when she said it, it came back. But I was like, I thought I had dreamt it. I thought I had just.

[A]

You know, I have moments like that too where I'm like, did that happen or did I just tell. Yeah, yeah. You just don't trust your own reality.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, 14 year old me. We did it. We made it. We did it. Thank God. We're great. The confession came out, we told her and now she's marrying someone else. Oh no. The horror. Anyway, by the way. Well, I don't want to give away. I'll tell you, I'll tell you privately, but she's changing her last name. She's getting married to. I've never, I've met this person, but they seem lovely. They have decided together that they're changing their last name to a very cool last name.

[A]

Oh, I'm so. That's so cool. I'm telling you is still not catching on.

[B]

No, I will tell you, I can't off air what it is, but it's. She's gonna sound like a superhero, which is so cool.

[A]

I just love when people's names just work out. That's so kick ass.

[B]

I know, I know. You know about Schultz fourth. That's as good as I think we're getting here.

[A]

Good as gold.

[B]

It's. It's better than what's going on currently. I don't mind it. And by the way, I bought a plaque for the house that makes the house look like it's like one of those like historical.

[A]

No, I want. Remember that time I cried in the car because the house that I really wanted to buy went off and it had a plaque and I said it just it a plaque. And blaze was like, I'm sorry, your house with the plaque is gone.

[B]

I got the house an old plaque.

[A]

That looks like it's off plaque.

[B]

A haunted witchy home. And it says Schultz Forth Manor.

[A]

See, like, what the. Why don't you make your own plaque? That's so smart.

[B]

Etsy is so powerful.

[A]

I need to go do that. I'll make my own schlamp. Ignalli1 it.

[B]

Honestly, that would be beautiful. I. It makes me wonder about every plaque I've ever seen now because I'm like, if it's been this easy, why is this on your house really a historical landmark?

[A]

Or did you just buy this hundo? But although part of me thinks that I because I live in a historic neighborhood, I feel like the historic society is going to immediately clock in, be like, take that down. You don't deserve a plaque.

[B]

Just put it on the other side of the house.

[A]

You know, I'll just put it on my balcony and I'm like, you can't reach it. Sorry, I.

[B]

No, I'm. It says, I don't know if this is true, but this is what. This is what I found online and then ordered it as such, so I hope I'm correct. But I found out that plaques. If they say, like, C, like circa, and then a year, it's different than if it's established and the year.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong. Actually don't, because I already bought the.

[A]

House to say I can't. I certainly don't know.

[B]

Well, if you're a historian, just not along, because I already bought the plaque and it was expensive. But C or circa means that's when the house itself was built and establishes when the family moved in.

[A]

Oh, okay, that makes sense.

[B]

So. So ours says Schultz 4th Manor circa and then the year the house was built. So.

[A]

And you're like, it's been Schultzworth Manor since that day.

[B]

That's what I'm kind of hoping. I'm hoping nobody knows the circa established thing. And I'm like, yeah, so we. We moved into a haunted house.

[A]

Yeah. They knew we were coming from the day they built it. They were like, the name has to be Schultz fourth.

[B]

What is your circa 1880, 67, I think 1867.

[A]

Like 1860s. And I didn't really talk them until recently. And I was like, that's not that I didn't clock it. My house is falling apart. I've clocked it of more than it's clocked me, frankly. But I was listening to again, Jim Harold with all the shout outs to Jim Harold. And people were saying like, oh, my house from the 1890s. And I was like, that's old. And then I'm like, wait a minute, like, my house is old. I don't think it, like, hit me until recently where I was like, oh, of course there are ghosts here, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

There's no way that your entire neighborhood isn't riddled with an entire other community. You just can't see.

[A]

It has to be.

[B]

I hope that they are not trapped in their houses and that they can still walk to and from if they enjoyed each other.

[A]

I mean, that would be delightful because there was like a. A bustling community and they had pigs running around because it was, oh, Porkopolis. And they had like. I mean, remember I found that article that said, like, the woman who lived in this house hosted like a Halloween party for all the kids in town. And I'm like, I just.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

That's the energy we're. I'm gonna hold on to that.

[B]

What was her name?

[A]

You know, I don't. I should know it because I think that might be the one that I like. I'm always sensing on the stairwell. But I don't remember her name. I don't remember her name.

[B]

It'd be fun if, for Halloween, you had a shrine for her, like. Like a little altar or something.

[A]

Like a day of the Dead, like, honoring.

[B]

Yeah, Just, like, light a candle for her and go. We know you would want to celebrate.

[A]

I sometimes watch that show ghosts, and I'm like, imagine all the other ghosts being like, why the does she get a shrine?

[B]

Because the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

[A]

That's so beautiful.

[B]

And she was squeaky enough to end up in the papers. For how much?

[A]

That's right. She was hosting a Halloween party. What did you do?

[B]

Yeah, show me the paper. Show me the article. I'll care then. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Then I'll care.

[B]

Yeah. By the way, update on your toilet flooding.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. We finally got new toilets in. It took, like, three days. It's just like, everything is just a project, you know, in life. It doesn't even mean because I have a house. I just mean, like, everything. There's always a hiccup. Right? It's like, oh, okay. But it's fine. It was all handled. Blaze handled it. Thank God. New toilet. Brand new toilets. And they are beautiful.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

So my stepdad had to come over with, like, a dolly and, like, ratchet strap it the toilets to the dolly and carry them upstairs. I mean, it was like a. It was a hold to do anyway.

[B]

You know, there's nobody I would trust more with a ratchet strap than Tim.

[A]

There's no other person.

[B]

Batman is a walking ratchet strap.

[A]

That's correct and totally meant lovingly, I think.

[B]

Yeah. That would be a weird insult.

[A]

It would be. It would be.

[B]

Although ratchet is, like, one of the worst words.

[A]

That is a word that, like, I've tried to really distance myself.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's like when they say, like, oh, ratchet strap, caul for the window. And I'm like, why are all the words so dirty?

[B]

You know, I mean, I feel like is an easy one because men are in construction. And they were like, oh, let's get the dick blue.

[A]

Yeah, let me just get my out real quick.

[B]

You know, they ate it up and they were like, well, obviously that's what it's called now. Anyway. I don't even know if that was a Full circle. It felt like pot, slag, pot again, coke. What are you talking about?

[A]

These are terms for meta in metallurgy, in the field of metallurgy.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

They come from a fine and distinguished line of one metallurgy engineer.

[B]

I thought we were just saying words. I guess that's what this whole podcast is.

[A]

We have like a whole episode about slag pots, but it was like episode six. But I think it lives so strongly in my memory that I assume you're always thinking about it.

[B]

Also, did you mean to actually guess the accurate number? I'm pretty sure it was episode six.

[A]

That's upsetting to me because that means subconsciously I probably knew the sloth furnaces is what you're talking about. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And that was. Right, Your dad was in metallurgy or something?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I said, there's something about a slag pot. And then my dad wrote this long email to explain what slag plots are, and we were like. But he made up a fake email address called, and that's why I don't drink.

[B]

Why?

[A]

It's like this whole saga. And he still, like. I just still don't really understand what happened.

[B]

Well, maybe that's a mystery that we're not supposed to know, Christine.

[A]

Maybe that's for therapy next week.

[B]

I dare to ask, what and why do you drink?

[A]

Oh, geez. Well, you know what I drink, because you already guessed it.

[B]

Your citrusy notes.

[A]

My citrusy ipa. I had therapy this morning, and I'm just really thankful for my therapist and all the good therapists out there who are doing the work and going to their own therapy and like, oh, my gosh, it just sounds like a lot to go through your own journey and then to put that aside and like, help clients. So I don't know. Today I just felt especially thankful for my therapist. And she was actually. She reminded me she was the first person I told when I was pregnant in October before Blaze, because I found out that night before. And then I went to therapy the next morning and Blaze had already brought Leona to school. And I was like, I don't know who else to tell, so I'm going to tell you. So there. I don't know. She's just a very. I just. I'm just really thankful for her. So for all the therapists out there, all the. Any sort of psych or brain related or, I mean, anything in this vein, I'm just like. So in all of you, thank you for what you Do. Didn't necessarily have like a huge breakthrough today, but just felt like more sturdy afterward, you know.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Yeah. What about you? What do you drink?

[B]

I drink leftover Crystal Light.

[A]

Ooh, yum.

[B]

And I drink because I ordered a lot of things to the house and none of them have appeared yet. And I'm kind of concerned.

[A]

Is one of them the plaque or has that arrived already?

[B]

Oh, the plaque has been here.

[A]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[B]

No, they were just like little things, but I'm just aware that I was like, I ordered a lot of things and they're not here and I don't know what's going on. And they were from different companies. So I'm like, what's going on with the mail right now? Just feels like they should have appeared by now. Maybe as soon as, like we're. I finish the sentence, they'll all just.

[A]

Be in a pod, just all of a sudden knocking and barking and.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But two days ago I started getting nervous and now I'm like, two days.

[A]

Later is a little bit concerning if like multiple things. So is there anything particularly exciting in these packages or just like, you're just concerned in general?

[B]

I don't think there's anything particularly exciting, which is helpful because I'm like, well, at least I, you know, I'm not.

[A]

Going to count down.

[B]

Yeah, but it was like just, it was just little things and I, I got them from. I don't want to like poo poo on smaller business at all, but the. I got all of them from those places and they're. I'm. I think it's a male situation, not the business situation, but I was like, oh, man. I was really excited to like support local business and now none of it's here.

[A]

Now look what they did.

[B]

I was like, now they ruined it.

[A]

No, now look what they've done.

[B]

No, I'm sure there's just a kerfuffle. If I don't get anything by today, I'm gonna really start panicking. But I've been following the tracking number and like, it's definitely the mail, the mail service. Because, like, what. The last time I looked, it was like in an hour from me. And then I looked last night in the middle of the night and it was in Louisiana. And I was like, oh, that for sure got sent to the wrong place.

[A]

La. La.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, that has to be it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But yeah, so it was. I think it was just a mix up and now I'm waiting for it to come back. But it started in Jersey and then it came all the way here, then it went all the way back to Louisiana.

[A]

Oh, you hate to see that.

[B]

So I'm hoping it does arrive. I'm. I'm more worried that, like, it got lost in transit.

[A]

Good. Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, anyway, that's why I drink, because I just want my.

[A]

Leftover crystal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, tell me a tale. A quick message from today's sponsor, the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance program.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Do they have like a on the grill section? Because I remember he did walk on top of a burning grill one time.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

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[B]

I got a lot to say everybody.

[A]

No, you.

[B]

I got this dog in the house and he's already like really into food. I have never seen this man, this four legged man react the way that he reacts to the pets. Table. The pet stables personalized dog food from our favorite team behind. Hello, hello, hello, trash.

[A]

Woof woof.

[B]

So basically, just think about hellofresh. They decided, oh, your dog should also eat and they delivered the pets Table.

[A]

Is minimally processed to preserve actual nutrients, protein, vitamins, antioxidants that your dog, your mate, your four legged man dog needs to needs to support gut and immune health, a healthy coat and active lifestyle.

[B]

I mean, it's so embarrassing. So, Hank, it's the beef and berries. And by the if you have ever smelled this bag, it's human grade. So part of me is like, I need to, to try it smells so good. There's nine recipes are all formulated with a board certified vet nutritionist. I'm not kidding. My dog goes feral for this.

[A]

Yes. Yes, that sounds about right.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

That's the PetStable.com code DRINK55. I have a quick one. I literally, I've been doing notes for this one story, Christine, for days. For days.

[A]

This one.

[B]

No, hold on. So there was a story.

[A]

Don't get ahead of yourself.

[B]

Don't get yourself. This one, not so much. No. I've been doing notes for this non stop. And it has been the biggest headache of my entire life. And if I ever finish the notes and get to talk about it with you, you'll understand why. Not panicking. But like, like I'm gonna have an aneurysm about this. Like, this is.

[A]

I'm not panicking. I'm just gonna probably die.

[B]

This is, it's, it's so complicated. I can't say too much, but it's just so complicated and like the wording is so weird and it's like trying to, you have to like half translate while also figure out where in the timeline this is.

[A]

You know, I'm so mad. I don't know what this is already. I'm like, one day you'll know so bad. I want to know so bad.

[B]

You'll be appreciative then. But then like one of the only places I could really get a lot, a lot, a lot of information was like astonishing leg. But that it was ended up being a two parter and it added up to like seven hours. So yeah, but if I did short episode, but if I didn't listen to it, then I wouldn't be doing the story justice because they covered so much more information than I saw anywhere else. It's just, it's become a shout out.

[A]

To my two favorite podcasts already.

[B]

I know. I basically I thought I could get this done if I stayed up really late. And by like one in the morning I was like, I can't do this tonight. Like my brain isn't even thinking straight. And so at one in the morning I picked a new topic. So I had to find something that Last night. Last night, yeah.

[A]

Oh my God. Okay.

[B]

So I started at 1. I ended around like 4.

[A]

Which topic were you gonna do Monday if we did record? Because I ended up pushing the date because I'm me.

[B]

Same thing. Well, so I was going to do the topic I'm talking about right now. That was super tricky. But I was just gonna make it a two parter and.

[A]

Oh, okay. And get started on it or whatever.

[B]

And get started. But then I found more information. I was like, well, now that part one isn't even finished. It was such a. I pain.

[A]

I see.

[B]

So anyway, I found a very quick one. I did do thorough research. There was just very little research to go off of. So.

[A]

Yeah. Which is sometimes nice because it's like, okay, at least I know I didn't skip or, or forget anything, but.

[B]

So I, I don't want anyone to think that I didn't do solid research just because I started in the middle of the night. I did do just as much research as I could on, on any other topic. This just happened to have very little information, which was perfect because it's what I needed at one in the fucking morning.

[A]

So sometimes that's just when we do our finest work.

[B]

You know, I really did lock the fuck in. I was like, I have to figure.

[A]

Out a story in Capricorn.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I've been very into astrology lately. New Moon in Capricorn. Lock in. That's the phrase.

[B]

So this is the old Teller County Jail, AKA Cripple Creek Jail, AKA Creek Jail, AKA the Outlaws and Lawmen Jail Museum.

[A]

First of all, if you already have a cool name, like just chill, right? It's like, why do you need three of them? Like let somebody else have a cool name for a second. Although it is very us coded, like let's call it Yappy Hour and Bone After Dark and everything else. So I mean, I can't judge.

[B]

But anyway, I, I also got really frustrated when I was like, oh, finally, not a lot of information. And then I saw something about like ghost adventures being involved and I was like, please don't make me watch a whole 45 minute video.

[A]

Please don'.

[B]

But apparently this got a quick little shout out in like some bonus footage that Ghost Adventures at some point put out. Because I think they went to Cripple Creek, which is in general a haunted place.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

And I think there was like a, like a kind of either a B roll or like they mentioned that it was haunted. This. I, I didn't look, I didn't watch. To be totally honest. But someone said it gets a mention, but it does not have its own episode.

[A]

A historian, a Ghost Adventures historian gave you that.

[B]

Boots on the ground journalism.

[A]

Yes, man. I mean, that's. That's. That's good work. Noble work.

[B]

Noble work, yes. So this is in Cripple Creek, Colorado. Love a triple C. Love it. And it starts in 1890. So your house was about 23 years old.

[A]

See, that blows my mind. I'm like, wait, what? This was a new build.

[B]

A whole family had, like, raised children that had already moved.

[A]

Oh, my God, that's so weird.

[B]

I know. And the area. Because every fucking time in the last couple episodes I feel like I've been mentioning gold mines. And I'm not even trying to. I'm so tired of this. Get out of here.

[A]

I'm just tired of these gold mines.

[B]

I just keep thinking, oh, this one's in a different area. Surely it can't also be. Oh, my God. It's about gold.

[A]

You're in a. You're in a little spiral there.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Gold spiral.

[B]

I guess I'm picking out a lot of, like, Gold Rush era stories, so I need to just deal with it. But. So 1890, the area became a literal gold mine when a cowboy. Christine, are you listening?

[A]

Cowboy it very closely.

[B]

He discovered lots of gold in the water.

[A]

Yeah, he did.

[B]

And now he's a rich cowboy. Christine, are you listening?

[A]

I'm already gone. I'm logging it. Well, I'm logging out or whatever my beer told me to do.

[B]

I. I have a friend at the dog park who's from Wyoming and he. Well, I think a cowboy is exactly what we're. What we're hoping he finds. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Oh, intriguing. Yep, Got it.

[B]

I hope, I hope. And. And it's become a bit of a thing where a bunch of my friends of the dog park, their type is cowboy. It's very weird. And by the way, a lot of people are from Wyoming. Like, I've met like three Cowboy country.

[A]

We'll go back to Wyoming. That is where the cowboys are.

[B]

I. Yeah, so maybe that's why they all want a cowboy. But I've met. I've met three people in the last, like, week from Wyoming.

[A]

Have they met each other?

[B]

Because I think two of them have met each other. And then there was another. And I was like, I gotta get you involved in this guy.

[A]

I don't mean a group. Yeah, I was like, what the hell.

[B]

Are you all doing here anyway? One of them obsessed with cowboys. And I think about you Every time.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Anyway, where were we? This hot cowboy, I assume, and he's rich. He discovered a lot of gold in the water. And within a few years, the. Not even a few years. Within one year, the town's population grew to an. An absurd number. But every source had a different answer. But an absurd number. One source literally said the town population went from 15 to 37,000 overnight. And I went, no, it didn't.

[A]

Words mean something. You know what I mean?

[B]

The area became known as the greatest gold camp on earth.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Interesting. And per usual, that means with more people coming in very quickly, seemingly overnight, According to some sources, that means more bad guys started appearing in town, because.

[A]

That'S how it goes, of course.

[B]

So there needed to be a new jail. The rickety local jail that was made of, like, wood slabs. I think it was, like, literally imagine an old western movie and where you.

[A]

Can, like, walk out of the jail. Yes.

[B]

Like, the jail is the outhouse.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I. I'm assuming especially there's, like, hanging.

[A]

Right there, and you've gotta, like, use a little hook to get the key.

[B]

Especially if there was a. Like, if only 15 people were in town.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah. It's like you only use it for that one guy, you know?

[B]

Yeah. You, like, check in to go to jail.

[A]

He just sleeps in there, and then it's, like, good for the day.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So this rickety old jail was built originally to hold the amount of people that should have been in town. But then after this gold rush, a new jail had to be built because it just couldn't hold more than one person, probably. So a new jail needed to be built. They were already talking about it. A couple years into this problem, two different fires blew through town, ended up knocking down the previous jail. And they were like, well, that's a sign. Let's finally build this thing. So in 1901, they built a new, more fireproof than wood brick jail. And they call it Teller County Jail. And I'm a little confused about the timeline. I feel like at some point, they actually built a. A jail before this one, and then that one didn't work out. So this is the second try at a rebuild. I'm a little confused about that, but who cares? It's called the Teller County Jail, and it housed folks awaiting trial right across the street at the courthouse. It housed people with. Dealing with smaller crimes. It was a stopover jail for people who were being transferred to prison and mental facilities. The greater prison in the area or the greater one of them. The either the greater prison or institution that people were being sent to was actually also in Wyoming. So the cowboys and the Wyoming people are getting a lot of play in this episode so far.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The common crimes for people who would actually go to this jail to stay at this jail for their entire sentence, it was mainly for sex work. It was mainly for larceny. It was mainly for something gambling related, like cheating at cards or just fucking gambling. Like, I feel like that's just two counts immediately.

[A]

I don't know. Back then, gambling was just a fun hobby they all did.

[B]

Maybe. Yeah.

[A]

You know, blackjack and coke. I don't know. What the hell do I know?

[B]

A lot. Being drunk in public was a big one. So it was all like kind of silly things that I would imagine.

[A]

Silly little things.

[B]

I would imagine in the grand scheme of jails, I would feel safer in this one.

[A]

Right. Maybe than others. We don't have necessarily hardened homicidal maniacs in there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. They were all just a little drunk or a little horny, you know what I'm saying? The longest sentence that anyone served here was one year. And fun fact. World heavyweight boxing champion. I know you love them. Jack Dempsey stayed here for a while for petty larceny. He's, I think, their most notable alum. So.

[A]

Okay, yeah. I mean, even I know that name.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Jack Dempsey. Yeah, but that's like, probably the only. If you had said, like, name anyone else heavy, I would have been like, I don't know. Muhammad Ali. I have no idea.

[B]

I did not know this name. But multiple sources were like, jack Dempsey was here. And I'm like, okay, great.

[A]

Yeah, I know about that guy.

[B]

See? And you were like, what do I know?

[A]

You know, about Jack Dempsey in a very, very minimal way.

[B]

Well, it. So he was there. And when they did. So they. They built this thing as, you know, 1901, it cost $25,000. I'm assuming that's $25,000 of 1901 money. So of course it did the math for you. And that's pretty much a million dollars today. Woof.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It was considered, of course, state of the art. They all are gold in the water.

[A]

You know, at first I was like, that's a lot of money. But then I'm like, well. But also they're finding, like, so much gold. I'm like, whoever's financing this better have, like, like some great points. Gold they're finding.

[B]

That's a great point, Christine. I hadn't even thought about that.

[A]

Yeah, man.

[B]

But one of the Reasons. It was stupid.

[A]

You would feel, though, if you were one of the first 15 people to live there. And then all of a sudden, the gold rush started and you were like, wait, what? There's gold here? You know, like, that would suck.

[B]

You could just watch people, like, right through the window, like, finding gold.

[A]

My backyard. Get the out of here. Yeah.

[B]

I'd be Shaw shanking with, like, a spoon just to find gold. Not even to escape. I'd be.

[A]

I would be so stupid, like, looking. Yeah. In my own house. And I'd be like, it's in the river, dumm.

[B]

Well, the reason it was considered state of the art is because it had electricity. It was 1901. Okay. And it had indoor plumbing. But that's kind of a big, bold, brave thing to say.

[A]

Did I? Like, a week ago. So good luck.

[B]

And you have electricity, you're no better than a 1901 jail in Wyoming or Colorado.

[A]

You know what I'm always saying, that's what's on my plaque out front.

[B]

It just. Just a couple of cowboys trying to make it work.

[A]

Wyoming prison.

[B]

In this place, they had indoor plumbing, however big words. Because they did have. They had a shower and a toilet, but. They had a shower and a toilet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the whole jail. And a toilet.

[A]

Oi.

[B]

And it was upstairs, which was in the women's ward, and I think it was, like, reserved specifically for women. So if you were a guy, forget it.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Female privilege, am I right?

[A]

That's right. We're always just. Just putting them down, you know.

[B]

So they, I guess, could get away with saying we have indoor plumbing, but it was, like, one pipe in their walls.

[A]

Technicality.

[B]

So for the rest of the jail, it was, in total, 14 cells. It was, like, not a very big jail.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But they try to say in all the sources it was built to house over a hundred people or to house up to 100 people. But if you do the math, it's like 84 for. Because it was 14 cells. And I don't even know if we're including, like, the. There was a matron who was, like, the female guard, but she, I think, had to, like, live there. So she had one of the cells, I think.

[A]

Oh, my Lord.

[B]

There was a solitary confinement cell. So that's two of the 12 where I don't even think you can put multiple people in. But okay, let's. Let's assume 14 cells that could fill everybody. And at the time, they were able to put six people into each cell.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They were very small cells. They were six and a Half by nine feet for six people. So they didn't have room for the rugs.

[A]

Looking at my rug, which I think is like nine by six.

[B]

Yeah. It was a. It was insane.

[A]

Disturbing.

[B]

Yeah. It's a cage. It's a full. Just a cage. Yeah. That's actually a good way to put it. The average rug in a house, I think is five by seven or something.

[A]

Yeah. So like six by nine is like slightly bigger. Yeah, that's. That's like an alarming way to. Because then you can kind of like see it visually, you know, I.

[B]

The other weird thing about it is because it was so small and no way could you fit six beds in there. They gave them hammocks attached to the ceiling. Oh, God. And so. And they're hanging from the ceiling. You can't like unhook it and then put it over here during the day. So you're standing in a six and a half by nine room with six sheets hanging from the ceiling.

[A]

So vertically you don't even have room.

[B]

Right. It's like a haunted house. You're just constantly moving those stupid things out of the way.

[A]

Stupid body bags in those haunted houses. Yeah.

[B]

At that point you might as well just constantly be lying in that hammock. And sometimes someone is standing up to stretch their legs. Like it's just atrophy.

[A]

And their head like hits you in the butt.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, I feel like that would be so frustrating.

[B]

I think it was either three rows of two layers of hammocks or two rows of two layers. Three layers of two rows.

[A]

That's just nuts.

[B]

And they also, because remember there's only one toilet and it's meant for the women. They got one chamber pot for six people. Oh. So it was 1901. So that was totally fine. And it's the old wild west and they could just get away with that shit.

[A]

I guess. I guess so.

[B]

There were two floors in the jail. The bottom floor was the men's ward and there was 10 cells down there. The four cells upstairs were for the women and children and a solitary confinement cell. So I don't know if that's three for the women and one. I don't know if that's one solitary confinement, one for the. The matron guard, and then only two for the women and children. I don't fucking know. But there's four cells upstairs. Speaking of the kids. Because this was a time where if you were a woman and went to jail and you were a mother, you were still expected to mother on the clock in jail, it's your job.

[A]

It's your. It's not your job, it's your duty.

[B]

Well, where else are you gonna put the kid with a like cowboy, Like a wild west cowboy. So the first kid that stayed here was a four year old. Oh, who by the way, didn't even have parents. It was because this kid got lost in town and had no contact info for his family. Didn't know where to go and so he was just a ward of the state. So they just.

[A]

Four year old boy. Yeah, that hurts.

[B]

I guess until someone came and picked him up. Like lost and found. I don't know. So sad.

[A]

And they're like, let's put you in prison, son.

[B]

Yeah, daycare. Then the youngest kid that was there was 18 months old who was living there with their incarcerated mom. So the jail was. Oh, like I said, okay. It was designed to hold six people per cell. But when regulations change where they were like, this is not sanitary and abusive. And by the way, remember this is state of the art. And it was known to be like the most sanitary jail that had been built. So it's like, what were the others like?

[A]

Yeah, I don't want to know. You know, it's like that's just really makes us so much worse somehow.

[B]

Is it just because like their floor had concrete and not dirt or something? Like what are you?

[A]

Like they were sleeping in hammocks. They were claiming like, who knows. Yeah, because. Yeah, because they had a toilet. Probably gave them points. Even though it was one toilet.

[B]

You know, they had no, no sinks, no showers. It was just.

[A]

It's not like this toilet worked well, let's be real. Okay.

[B]

You know it didn't. I bet they flushed it one time to celebrate that they had a toilet and they're broke and they went, well.

[A]

And then it was like, now it overflows and it's somebody else's job 100%.

[B]

So the regulations eventually caught on and they were like, we have to change the rules if this is what the world's greatest sanitary jail looks like. And also we can't have people sleeping in fucking hammocks six at a time on a rug sized cage. So they installed wooden. They installed one wooden bunk per cell and they made the cells for only one person could. Only one person could stay in them, not six. Whoa.

[A]

So you went from six person cell to like, oh, this is your solo. You get a private room.

[B]

Yeah, but also still probably no toilet.

[A]

I'm not sure on the toilet and you're in prison. But like, okay, so it went from Six to one per cell.

[B]

Wow. But the irony is that they built. Built this place because the one that existed back when the gold rush started was so small, they couldn't fit anyone in there. Right.

[A]

So what's the point now?

[B]

And now they've got this big, quote, bigger one that can, quote, hold 100 people and now can only hold up to, like, 15 people. So it's like, back to square one. And no one even mentions that, by the way. That's just an observation I've made where I'm like, so only 15 people can stay here at a time. That's like, you might as well.

[A]

Yeah. Because you clearly had need for. Not need. Okay. That's a strong word. But, like, you clearly thought you had need for a big one because you were filling up the hammocks. So now, like, what's going on? Where are the rest of them going?

[B]

Great point. I bet they were transferred to that Wyoming prison.

[A]

Probably true.

[B]

So, yeah. Ironically, the jail now could only hold as much as probably the original shack could. So also, I just wanted to mention the solitary confinement cell had no light shining through the. It had a solid metal door. It was the only cell that had a solid metal door. The rest of them just had, like, classic bars. So they at least had, like, circulation and light and, like, the ability to see others. That's nice. The catwalk on the second floor was very flimsy. It was known to be incredibly flimsy. It only had one single thin railing. That was.

[A]

That freaks me out, really. Those catwalks in. In those old jails, especially when it's.

[B]

Held together by, like, barely no parts. It was.

[A]

It, yeah.

[B]

Seemed very easy to jump off of if you were in that mindset. It also seemed very easy to push someone off. It was certainly easy to fall. In fact, one person did fall and died. And a lot of people who were here, like I said, were in the middle of being transferred to a worse prison, which meant they were more violent. So even though the. The people who were staying long sentences here were probably, like, safe to have as cellmates, there were also some dangerous people coming through and through.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that catwalk was also probably a wonderful plan if they wanted to hurt somebody or if they wanted to end it all. Because if they're about to go to a worse prison where maybe something worse is going to happen to them, maybe this is their opportunity. So the catwalk just screams eerie. And it's just like Dark Inventions.

[A]

Not safe. Safe. Not safe.

[B]

So one, like I said, one inmate did definitely die on the catwalk by either falling or being pushed. We don't know. There is a basement that. I guess in the basement there's a room called the ice room because it was ice storage, but it was basically a temporary morgue as well because it was cold.

[A]

Oh, of course.

[B]

And under the staircase was actually another room. I only saw this on one source, so I. I hope I'm. I hope this is true. Actually, I hope it's not true because it's horrifying.

[A]

But I hope I'm lying to all of you right now.

[B]

I hope. Big breaking news. This is not real. Under the staircase, a small room was found and is thought to be where inmates would be used to give confessions under duress. Oh. For some reason, I think it was like, right above the boiler or something, because I saw on this one source that they think prisoners would get stuck in there or put in there when it was really hot to, like, basically steam them into confessions.

[A]

Oh, God. Okay.

[B]

Like hot boxing, but not in the fun way.

[A]

And then you're in the basement in the ice room, if you're okay. Whoa. Okay.

[B]

And then if you get steamed too much, you end up in the ice room. Yeah. So in the 90s, this place closed. In the 1990s, this place closed. So we were alive when this closed. And by the way, it. It would have stayed open because they built this thing to last. So they never had to build another jail, ironically. And then they probably needed to because it was so small. But the. They built it to last, and that was the. The plan. But the only reason they ended up having to close is because they needed a wreck yard. And I guess either couldn't afford it or didn't have space for it, but that was the only reason. They just didn't have a rec yard. Otherwise it was still up to standard.

[A]

Interesting. So, I mean, I'm glad they found something of shut it down. Like, yeah, it needed to be. Sounds like.

[B]

And every jail I've covered, it's like, oh, it ends up being decommissioned or closed because of overpopulation or because it's not sanitary anymore or the conditions are poor. But, like, it's. This was totally fine. They were just like, you need a yard? And they were like, well, we don't have that. And they're like, well, that's the new regulations.

[A]

Have you seen our toilet?

[B]

Have you seen our one toilet? Have you seen it? In 2007, it reopened. So from the 90s to the early 2000s, in that, like, 10 year span, it was closed. It reopened as the Outlaws and lawmen. Jail museum.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Open open year round. Five dollar admission for adults. Love it. And the old jailer's office, you know, I love this. The old jailer's office is now a gift shop.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I love it. The museum obviously has tours, ghost tours, I'm assuming as well. And lots of the furniture in there and, like, the decor there's. It's all original from the jail, which is super eerie that there's like. Like the height markers when people would get processed is still there. Drawings on the wall from inmates are still there.

[A]

Well, like, if you think it would close in the 90s and then 20 years later, 10 years later, it was made into a museum. That's pretty. Yeah, like 10, 15 years. That's wild. That's like closing and being like, all right, I'm gonna start playing. We just closed this prison. I'm gonna start plans to set it up as a. I mean, it's pretty wild. Like, if you had been housed there or been imprisoned there in, like, the 80s or. It just must be so weird to be like, oh, now it's a museum.

[B]

I feel like a lot of times I've been on, like, jail ghost tours or jail history tours. And if it closed recently, then, like, inmates come on the tour.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. That happened on Alcatraz where they have. People come. I mean, that's an extreme example, but yeah, I've seen that as well. That's a good point.

[B]

I can't imagine the talking about, like, what therapists do for us. I can't imagine psychologically what it's like to see, like, your hell being an attraction.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And also being able to just. And the. The concept of getting to be free in the space where you had no freedom.

[A]

Yeah. But also being charged five bucks and being like, really? Because I got in. I got in free last time.

[B]

Now, Christine, if you did stand up, that is a punchy one right there. That's a good one.

[A]

I just do sit down. You know what I mean? Now that's a dad joke killing it.

[B]

But I. I would imagine if this closed in the 90s, there are a lot of people who've probably gone in that were once there. And yeah, you'd think they're like, oh, there's that toilet again. You can't imagine what we used to say about that thing. Or, oh, they're.

[A]

That, those.

[B]

Those are the. The hook holes where the hammocks used to be.

[A]

Good old Jimmy McGee used to have night terrors up there.

[B]

You know, there is One room that they still have the hammocks showing. Like, they left.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They left it so that way you could see what the original.

[A]

It is a curiosity. Like, it's like. What do you mean, hammock?

[B]

I mean, yeah, it's a totally accurate. This. This solitary confinement cell you can walk in and sit in, you know, and, like. And again, I imagine being someone who was, like, incarcerated there, and you're like, yeah, you take someone with you, and they're like, let's go in the solitary confinement cell. And they're like, let's not actually.

[A]

Let's.

[B]

How about.

[A]

We don't.

[B]

Last time was bad for me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So. Okay. As for the ghosts. A lot of sounds. We're hearing voices, a lot of EVPs. There was some websites that just had the EVPs ready for you to listen to if you want.

[A]

That feels like a very. Is that weird? I don't know. I feel like there's so many EVPs in jails, and I wonder if it's like, oh, that was one of the only modes of communication. Like, you couldn't necessarily touch anyone because you're in that. I mean, you know, theoretically, when you're alive. But I don't know, it just always strikes me that there are so many, like, very clear EVPs from jails.

[B]

You are totally right. I agree. And I. A part of me feels like it's because jails are echoey.

[A]

That's true too. Like, you would hear everything. So, like, even if it's someone upstairs. That's a good point. Like. Like, it's not like, in a house where everyone's kind of privately, like, locked away. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I wonder if it's because. I don't know if hauntings are. If this is like, oh, this is repetitive. From something that actually happened in history, or if this is. If we're being haunted by someone's memory. So all they. All they remember are the sounds. I don't know. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. Ooh. Haunted by their memory. Oh, that's creepy. I hadn't thought of that.

[B]

That now you can fall asleep nicely tonightful.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure I will.

[B]

So you can hear voices, you hear EVPs. There's a lot of heavy breathing. Yuck.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Door slams, keys jingling the most popular is footsteps pacing from, like. Like, in a way where you can hear the pattern of a. Of a. Of a path being walked. Like.

[A]

Like patrolling.

[B]

Sort of like patrolling. So, like, you could. If you're standing in a hall, you can hear the footsteps coming towards you and then kind of of going away as if it walked past you and then eventually hearing it build back up to you. Like, no, yucko. Most of the heavy breathing, by the way. And also if you run into a cold spot, that happens on the catwalk, which part of me is like, do they let people stay on that catwalk? That can't be. So, I don't know, maybe it's just near it. But one employee heard, speaking of sounds, they heard an invisible stack of papers drop on the floor near them, which.

[A]

That's so specific.

[B]

So specific and so jarring because that's not just a slam. That's a slam and a scatter.

[A]

And then you hear like, yeah, oh. Oh, how weird. Because, like, you wouldn't say that unless you really were like, no, that's what.

[B]

That was like that I accidentally bumped into a stack of papers.

[A]

Yeah, you'd say like a heavy object, but like a stack of papers. Yeah, that's quite a specific sound.

[B]

Yeesh. And he never found anything. He just knows that that was the sound he heard. In the men's ward in those cells, people see dark masses moving around, especially in the back. Yeesh. But they see dark shadows and masses dancing around in there. And in the women's section, especially in the matron or female guards room, people say that they still feel someone monitoring the area.

[A]

Ooh.

[B]

A few people have actually sworn that they've seen the full bodied apparition of Rosie, who was the matron of the warden. She said to still be seen in her room. She's also seen upstairs, like, looking down to you. Also in her room. People will find items just sitting on her bed that shouldn't be in the jail and they just appear so one person actually found marbles sitting in the bed.

[A]

Confiscated. She confiscated them.

[B]

Oh, that's an interesting take. My thought was that, like, because that was also where the kids lived, so maybe they were kid toys. But you're right, they would also gamble with marbles. So maybe.

[A]

So my first gut instinct was, oh, my God, she's still confiscating.

[B]

But that's funny though. If you lose your stuff, you should go, like, look in her room.

[A]

I bet you. Yeah, she's like, who told you you could have a lip gloss in here?

[B]

Yeah. I'm pretty sure that this is my Birkin, so.

[A]

Yeah. Who allowed that? This is now confiscated material. Sorry, my Birkin bag. Don't use the lip gloss in it. And the marbles.

[B]

Not to gaslight you, but I actually. You didn't walk in Here with your. With those Jimmy Choo. Those are mine.

[A]

Incorrect. Now go back on the catwalk without your Jimmy shoes on. Who goes into a person with Jimmy.

[B]

Choose and a Birkin bag?

[A]

What?

[B]

I feel like it's like an episode of the Kardashians. Like, oh, my God, that's like a.

[A]

Weird poll that I would make from, like, my minimal understanding of luxury goods, which is probably what just happened. Like, just like, we know those names.

[B]

My brain was filing through the Rolodex of, like, what's a crazy brand?

[A]

Yeah, it's good.

[B]

So, yeah, one person actually said that they have seen Rosie and she told them in some way that she is still watching over her post.

[A]

Wow. Okay. She takes it seriously.

[B]

Very seriously. And a male officer has also been seen through the jail, mainly from windows, watching people. And he also has been seen trying to come into the building after hours as if he, like, left something in there. One time, an employee actually saw him either standing outside waiting to be let in, or was walking in and trying to get to the door, but they thought it was a tourist and they had been closing up for the night. So she walked outside to say, sorry, we're closed, and the guy vanished.

[A]

Imagine being like him and being like, I'm literally going back to my office and they're like, we're closed. Like, what?

[B]

I feel like he didn't even hear what she had to say. He just vanished through her and went, get out of my way. I'm going.

[A]

Yeah, like, I've heard that one before. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

When the employee later described him to the rest of the staff, they were able to, like, confirm that that was the jailer that they either also seen or knew about.

[A]

I'll be honest, I don't love that he's coming back at night to go into the jail. I'm like, what is he up to and why? Yeah, not only that, like, because I'm like, okay, yeah, you forget saying, why is that replaying, like, repeatedly? Like, that just feels great point. Like, what's the energy of this that he's coming back in? Repeatedly, like, what was he doing?

[B]

I also, like, I don't. I didn't see anything about this and I feel like it would have made news. So because I don't know about it, I'm assuming it did not happen. But my guess would be like, maybe that's like an inmate killed him or something. Like, he went in and this is.

[A]

Like his last moments, final moments, and he's like, get out of my way, employee.

[B]

But again, there Was. There's no, like no news or information that something happened like that. So know.

[A]

Maybe he just always came back at night.

[B]

Maybe he was just as committed to his job as Rosie and he was like, I need to be here.

[A]

They need to get a hobby is what I say.

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

Have you tried marbles? Oh, see, that's what I'm saying. There's something more to that you wouldn't just keep repeating as a ghost coming back every. Like, that's just. Something's up there. There's a motive.

[B]

If she had to stay there, which I don't even know if that's true, but it sounds like if she had her own cell. Basically it sounds like she lived there there. But maybe they turned it into an office or something.

[A]

Well, she had that Birkin bag and he was probably like, that's hot.

[B]

He was in defeat. And she was in those jimmy shoes. I know.

[A]

What? How can you say no?

[B]

But that would be a fun little tale as old as time where like they're still in love in the afterlife. Still checking in.

[A]

No wonder they're so committed to their jobs.

[B]

Yeah. No wonder she's just always there.

[A]

So devoted to the task.

[B]

I'll tell you about it during Yapio where I have some. I have an add on but it'll take us way far off.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Children have also been seen in the jail, which is very sad, but they've been seen upstairs looking out of windows. I'm sure that they are some of the voices people hear or the footsteps. People also see lights on in the building even though apparently I think there's no electricity in parts of the prison anymore.

[A]

Creepy. That's not cool.

[B]

I don't know if I can totally believe that if there's a gift shop in there.

[A]

That's true. And like presumably cash registers and such.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It's a museum.

[B]

But I do know that people see lights in the building when there should not be lights.

[A]

It's not good. Like if I were passing in jail electricity or not. And the lights turn on one of the cells and it's night time and I know nobody's there.

[B]

Like, yeah, yeah. No doors in the building will fly open on their own. I also a saw that everywhere. So I'm assuming this is something people have seen. One time a bible and rosary appeared in the basement and nobody knew who it was.

[A]

Yuck.

[B]

God. And a. The solitary confinement cell gives off really intense energy that makes people feel like they need to escape and that someone is holding them hostage in there or that they. That someone is standing there ready to slam the door in their face and lock them in.

[A]

No wonder that like the doors slam open if that's the energy there, like get me out, you know.

[B]

That's a great point. Ye. Or maybe there was a jailbreak. There were a few jailbreaks there. So maybe this is like energy from that. Anyway, that is the Cripple Creek Jail. AKA the Old Seller County Jail. AKA the Outlaws and Lawmen Jail Museum.

[A]

That was really good for especially for a last minute. Damn.

[B]

Not my first rodeo.

[A]

Damn. No comment on for both of us. Wow. Well I'll be right back because I have to pee and plug my light in and just like, just like give my toilet a word of gratitude to say thank you for being here and for working today. I hope.

[B]

Just give some thanks to the potty. Okay.

[A]

Well, well, well. It's been a time since I got to brag about my quint's wardrobe my friends. Okay. I didn't even think to wear it today. Basically still my pajamas. But every time I leave the house it's now in something that's Quinn. Cuz I've kind of gotten rid of decluttered everything else and then everything that left behind. Not intentionally. I was like oh that makes sense. All the things that fit me the best are the highest quality and I wear over and over again they are all quints. I don't know how it happened.

[B]

I I gotta be honest. Bought me a blazer a while ago. I've talked about it already in one of these ads. It's the finest I've ever. Sharper than a pencil. I'm telling they have also quince works directly with safe ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're not paying for brand markup, just high quality clothing. So me and my blazer look like we're the money bags over here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And nope, not true. Just quints.

[A]

High value, high quality. Classy. We got it.

[B]

All of it.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

I oh my God. These things are. I'm telling you, I tell everyone Now.

[B]

Cloud, I'm happy to be here, but I am still thinking about dreamland. I miss her. I miss her and I only the one way ticket is in my bedroom. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know that we sent you helixsleep.com drink.

[A]

All right, everyone, we are back. I have a weird one for you today. Em, it's a little different. I'd originally heard of this case via case file. I think it was like earlier this year and then stumbled upon it on Netflix somewhere. Confession tapes, I think. And then went into a little bit of a deep dive because I thought I knew what was going on and now I'm not really sure. So I'm curious to hear what you think. By the way. I never really do it like this with my iPad, so this is kind of new to me. I'm trying to find a better like setup. I just feel like I don't, I don't look professional usually when I record. So I'm trying, but this is distracting. Marvelous. Let me know if it's distracting. This is the story of Vincent via 4. And we're gonna jump right into it. So Angelica Groswald and Vincent Via four. They were a couple living together in New York City in 2013. Their relationship progressed quickly and they became engaged within only five months of meeting. They lived together part time and frequently traveled together, including outdoorsy stuff like kayaking and hiking. Angelika was born in Latvia and immigrated to the US as an adult. Friends and acquaintances described her as multilingual, well educated, very Intellectually curious. She and Vincent lived in New York City and he worked as a project manager for the State of New York while she worked in education related roles like tutoring, substitute teaching, that kind of thing.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Angelika described herself as an experienced kayaker. She'd been taken. She'd taken kayaking, kayaking courses in the past and was familiar with like, river conditions, tides, safety practices. Vincent, Meanwhile, he was 46 years old, so 11 years older than Angelica. Those who knew him described him as also outdoorsy, well versed in things like kayaking, hiking. He was social, physically active. He was known to enjoy travel and kayaking, hiking. He had two children from a previous relationship and was described as deeply committed to them and maintained regular contact. Friends described him as generous, enthusiastic. He was also described as impulsive and a party animal. And he's like in his 40s. So I think that sort of had morphed. I mean, this is just my perspective and I could be wrong, but. But it felt like that perspective had morphed from like, he's such a fun guy to like, okay, he can be a little out of control. Like, he can.

[B]

Like, at a certain age, people are like, oh, why aren't you going home?

[A]

Like, it's not cute anymore sort of vibe is my totally my take on vibes. There's nothing more than that here, so don't take my, my word for it. So they live together in New York. In the days leading up to April 19, with 2015, Angelika and Vincent planned a kayaking excursion on the Hudson river with the intention of visiting a place called Bannerman Island. Have you heard about this place?

[B]

Not even a little bit, no.

[A]

Okay. I would google it if you are able to. It's beautiful for, for a random island off the coast of New York City. Like, it's really cool.

[B]

What I feel like this is a little hidden gem, isn't it?

[A]

Isn't it just? So it's on the Hudson. Created and built in 19. Oh, so what is it? Est? No, circa 1901. It was a military surplus warehouse, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's since been abandoned, basically. But you can, you know, boat there and poke around and essentially they were. It was one of her favorite. Angelica's favorite places because being from Latvia, she felt like this was so removed of a vibe from New York City. She felt like, oh, this reminds me of Europe. She would volunteer there actually regularly. So she was part of like a volunteer committee that worked on the island. And she and Vincent were actually planning to do engagement photos there.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Because they were. They were engaged to be married. And one other thing to add to that note is that they were both divorced twice, I believe. Okay. So even though they were both relatively young, they had had a couple relationships in their past. He had two kids, I believe, but I will double check that. And she did not have any. And so they're kind of living this semi single, semi child free life, you know, in New York. And he still likes to have a good time every now and then. But generally people were like, oh, they're a pretty handsy, cutesy couple. Like, they're just very affectionate. They are outdoorsy. You know the type. You know the type. So they were going to Bannerman island, apparently, to do a racy photo shoot.

[B]

Oh, racy.

[A]

Okay, I know. So that feels like one of those questions on that my spirit space quiz we just did. Like, have you ever done a racy photo shoot? To which I say, I have you maybe.

[B]

What does that mean? Like a boudoir situation?

[A]

No, I've never. I've wanted to do that. I've never done that. It was more of. Oh, God. This is not supposed to be the main feed. It's supposed to be for yappy hour only. I've admitted too much.

[B]

Tell us.

[A]

No, you are the little devil. You're the hot stuff in my ear. Yes, I think I have just an impromptu, you know, when in 2018.

[B]

Okay, that's too far away for me to know the people probably in the story, so my interest is a little lower, if that helps.

[A]

2018, I want you to know, was two years was like a year. I was like, wait, do I know about this? No, I don't think anyone in the world, including me, sober me, has any clue about this.

[B]

Oh, I see. I see. This was a silly little wine moment.

[A]

It was just like a maybe like a honeymoon thing, you know?

[B]

Oh, I see. Okay, cool.

[A]

So nothing like that weird?

[B]

No, that's not weird at all. No, no, no.

[A]

It's just something I've never thought about again, I think, think. And now I'm like, oh, wow. Okay. How much do I say? There's nothing.

[B]

There's no shame in that. Good for you.

[A]

Listen, you know?

[B]

Good for you. Yeah, I bet it was a blast.

[A]

Beers were like a dollar down there, girl.

[B]

I bet you had a great time.

[A]

I had a big hat. Like, what are you gonna do?

[B]

No judgment from us.

[A]

This is what happens too, when I listen to. I sent you that clip the other day of Ladies and Tangents where I'm Like, Like, I listen to that and I'm like, suddenly Lucy Goosey. I'm like, I'll say whatever, you know, because they're so open, and they'll say, like, every. Anything, everything. They have some boundaries, but they will say so much openly that, like, sometimes I forget I'm on our podcast.

[B]

Anyway, whatever. You married the guy. So the pictures are probably incredible and very true.

[A]

They're probably going to haunt Leona someday when she accidentally puts, like, some SD Carter vlogs into icloud. I don't know. You know, maybe.

[B]

But you know what? Then she'll get older and then she'll go. Good for my parents.

[A]

I hope so. I can only hope so. Okay, so they were going to do a racy photo shoot. I've never done one outside of my lingerie. If we're.

[B]

Oh, oh, oh, no.

[A]

I've never done one ever. At all.

[B]

I was like, wow, we switched that up quick.

[A]

Okay, Jack, cut that out now. Oh, my God.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

What if I just gaslit you and was like, what are you talking about?

[B]

That would be crazy. I would have been like, I hope that somebody else heard that. Ye.

[A]

Yeah. No. Like, the evidence has to be here somewhere. No.

[B]

Okay. Racy, racy photo.

[A]

Sorry. I've never done, like, an outdoor, like, you know, in public type of. I just like to be specific. I don't know. Eventually, if we.

[B]

If we lay be specific enough, eventually you're just going to tell us the whole thing.

[A]

So you just can't shut the up. Wow. Okay. How do you think I get in these situations?

[B]

You know? Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, okay, so let's get back to. Now I'm embarrassed. Okay, let's get back to Bannerman Island. I'm not really. I'm just. I'm just. I'm embarrassed that my cheeks are red, and then it makes my cheeks more red.

[B]

You're embarrassed that you look embarrassed?

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

You get it. Okay, so they are planning this. So they're planning to have a few drinks with friends, and then they're gonna go do this racy photo shoot on Bannerman island, which is also where they were going to do engagement photos. She feels really drawn to this place, does volunteer work. There, there. So this is the plan. So originally that day, the weather was okay. It wasn't too bad. It was like. But it was April in New York, so it's like. It's not warm, right? Like, the temperature of the water, I believe, was around 40 or 45. And like they said a few minutes in that and you have hypothermia. So I, I don't think this is like, it's a beautiful day.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But they wanted to do it anyway, and I think they had planned it in advance. And so despite the weather looking a little choppy and windy, but mostly later in the day, they felt like comfortable enough to go ahead with their kayaking trip. So they launched from Plum Point and successfully reached Bannerman island earlier in the day. And as far as we know, nothing distressing happened during that portion of the trip. There was this couple interviewed on, I believe it was a Netflix, like confession tapes who said. And they were mentioned in some other reporting, but they were witnesses to like, make the timeline of this because she's like, we have binoculars that look at Bannerman island just stationed in our house. So my husband, like, spotted them and I'm like, doing a racy photo shoot. Like, I'm like, thinking about it now.

[B]

All of a sudden he was like, wow, these binoculars really came in handy today.

[A]

It was like, of course, I'm not fals faulting you for having binoculars. It's a cool place to look at, I guess. But like, the fact that they were part of the timeline, which means, like, oh, we saw them doing a racy photo shoot. I'm like, this is.

[B]

With great power comes great responsibility.

[A]

Yeah, right. And apparently they knew each other, so this wasn't even like a weird thing.

[B]

I would have, I would have put my phone camera through the binoculars and been like, guess what we just saw.

[A]

Yeah, like Snapchat it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With like, no regard for consequences, like during the MySpace days. And we would just say and do anything on the Internet. Yep. Yeah, so that was just like a funny tidbit to me because, I mean, first of all, they were witnesses. So they like, confirmed that the two of them made it to the island. And then I'm like, okay, but like, can we talk about this racy photo shoot you apparently were like binocular into. I don't know. Nobody seems to mention that part, but fair enough. Alas, alas, I, I asked the hard hitting, hitting questions on our part podcast. Okay, so they're on this island having their racy photo shoot. This is confirmed by binocular wielding neighbors. And as far as we know, nothing distressing has happened at this point. The return journey, though, is where everything goes wrong. There were deteriorating conditions. It was getting windy, it was getting colder, the currents were getting stronger, and the sun is going down. So, you know, like, you can feel it getting colder shoulder. That evening, April 19, 2015. A couple hours later, Angelica Groswold called 911 from the Hudson river and told the dispatcher that she is on the Hudson River. Her fiance fell in the water and she cannot reach him because of strong wind, waves and current. She says he's getting farther away and he is not going to make it. He's going to drown.

[B]

It's horrible because you're just watching it happen.

[A]

You're. Yeah. And you can hear the call, you know, on the recording and it's, you can hear a recording of the call. It's, it's, it's upsetting. Angelica provides info that places them on the river near Cornwall, on Hudson and Bannerman Island. In the same call, she indicates Vincent does not have a life jacket on. And she said he's holding on to some sort of small cushion or float, something like that. And she also explained to dispatch that she was struggling to control her own kayak and position in the water. So rescuers responded and she was rescued before being taken to the hospital for hypothermia. Vincent was nowhere to be found, unfortunately. So in the days after Vincent disappeared, Angelica was questioned repeatedly by New York State Police because as the way they described it, they did not like how they didn't. They felt a red flag about her reaction, like, or lack thereof to, to the event, which I'm like, one of the examples that the investigator gave was. Oh, when she was sitting in the ambulance afterwards, she was just like staring and not so shocked. Like crying. Exactly. I was like, isn't that the literal definition? Like just frozen? You know, it was just weird to me where I thought like, I feel like we're putting pieces in that don't necessarily.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fit. But yeah, I feel like that's also.

[B]

No matter what, it would be wrong because then if she was crying then she's maybe like too emotional or.

[A]

Exactly. We see that all the time where people like fake emotions and it looks even like worse. You know, I think I would be.

[B]

In full blown shock if something were to happen. Traumatic right before my very eyes and watching the love of my life.

[A]

But then also. And you're also like at risk.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For your life. You know, like you might not even survive. So you're having like a life and death experience while watching someone else that you love die in front of you. Yeah, exactly. So it was weird to me that people were like claiming that was the first red flag. But I mean, maybe there was more to it than that. But the, the actual explanation or example that the investigator gave on Netflix was Like, she was sitting in the back of the ambulance and she didn't look very upset. And I was like, that's like, not a thing.

[B]

That's not a thing. People handle that in so many different ways.

[A]

Especially for, like, a woman. It's like, oh, because she's a woman, she's supposed to be hysterical. I don't know, I just felt.

[B]

But then if she was crying, she would be hysterical.

[A]

Like, exactly, exactly. So it's like, it just felt really icky to me. But anyway, I digress. So they started questioning her and they saw some inconsistencies between Angelika's 911 call, the physical evidence they were collecting, and her retelling of events, and they sort of wanted to swoop in. Her version of events when she was questioned was that they had had a few beers with friends, went on a kayaking trip, thinking it would be decent weather, planning to do this racy photo shoot, she said. They went out there, took some photos, and on the return trip, Vincent's kayak tipped and he couldn't stay afloat as he wasn't wearing a life jacket. Police were like. Like, we're not so sure. So they found her calm, to be unusual and apparently suspicious. Sometimes she speaks quietly, other times she speaks almost like clinically, or like, I would say more like philosophically, which I feel like is like, to me is very normal. Like, I mean, not to be that guy. Just saying I just got into astrology, but like, like as an Aquarius moon and rising, I'm sort of like, I understand that, like, detached feeling, you know, if. If I were in a traumatic state, like you were saying, I feel like I would dissociate and be like, let me think about this from like a clinical perspective. Like, I could totally see myself pulling out of it emotionally and being practical. Yes, practical, very, like, straightforward. And then every now and then getting quiet and upset or whatever.

[B]

Spiraling and then spiraling, locking back in.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I didn't find it that odd, but this is all supposedly part of the prosecutions side of things. And again, I don't really know what I believe about this case, so.

[B]

Interesting. Okay, good to know.

[A]

Yeah. I'm curious what you're gonna think, honestly.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so I will say, despite my, like, grand defense of her, of her behavior during interrogations, she had behaved pretty strangely in the days after Vincent's death. So she had posted some odd things online, including videos of her doing cartwheels, smoking a cigar, taking shots. Like, it just felt like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are we celebrating? You know what I mean? H. The vibe was. The vibe was off. I will say it was 2000. What was it? 2015. So, like. So, like Instagram was just taking off and it feels kind of like, yeah, something. You would post Instagram, but not after your fiance just died.

[B]

I don't know. I don't. I don't know what their etiquette would have been then, because it feels like. Like social media was still discovering itself. So it's like you don't know what. What is normal to post or not.

[A]

I feel like social media back then was almost like more separate from your identity. Like, now it's sort of like, oh, this is my identity. Well, or whatever I want to present as my identity. But I feel like. I mean, I could be wrong, but I feel like it was a more like, when it's on, it's on. When it's off, you're not thinking, it's not like, part of us the way it is now. I don't know if that's true, though, but that's kind of how I remember it. Like, it was more impersonal. Like, it was just like. Like, here's my breakfast.

[B]

It was something. Yeah, it was something that, like, they were essentially just snapshots. It was like making a photo album in some way, Right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Versus, like, oh, this is my entire life. There were like, influencers.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, my God. So weird. Yeah, it's weird to think about, but that was kind of the era that this was taking place in, so I will say, yes, it is not a great look to be, like, smoking cigars, doing show shots on Instagram, like, within days of your. Of your fiance's.

[B]

Yeah. Not curious.

[A]

Was it a.

[B]

Was it footage from before he passed? Okay.

[A]

It was present day. And so it was just off putting. Okay. Is what I will say.

[B]

Sounds like it. Yeah.

[A]

I'm not saying it's illegal, but it is to me, a little bit off putting.

[B]

But.

[A]

So either way, they were looking at her. And like I said earlier, Angelika volunteered at Bannerman island regularly. She was close with some of the other volunteers and was actually heading out there one day to volunteer when the police just happened to be wandering the island looking for clues. They were sort of like, lying in wait. Like they knew she was going to come there to volunteer and they just wanted to accidentally run into her, is the implication that the defense gave.

[B]

But it was a bit of a setup.

[A]

But that's what they. That's what the defense claims. I will say the police claimed like, oh, she said she was gonna meet us there. And it's like he said, she said, you know, I. I don't know. But from her side of things, they were just kind of, like, hanging out there, waiting for her to show up. And to be fair, there are pictures of these police officers, like, picking up fake evidence, like, taking selfies on the island. Like, you can tell they're not really there for.

[B]

They're un.

[A]

Clues. They're there to, like, spring a trap on her. Yeah, it's. It just feels gross. And, like, they're on a boat, they're taking selfies, and it's just like, what are you again? Like, like, this was before we understood how, like, tied to our phones we would be someday. Because, like, you just wouldn't do that now, I don't think. Or maybe some idiots would.

[B]

I'm sure I could see someone when they think they've got a second off the clock. Like, oh, look, we're by this water, and it's pretty. Look at this picture. But, yeah, especially then it would have been weirder because nobody was taking pictures on their phone the way that we take pictures now.

[A]

Yeah. And I also feel like it would have had to be, like, a digital camera or something, which is so strong. Maybe not. I guess if people had Instagram, they had, like, iPhones, but it. It's just odd. And, like, there are photos where they're, like, picking something up that's invisible to be like, look, we're getting clues, you know, like, fake clues. So it's like, they're obviously, like, faking it. They're just being. Trying to be funny, I guess. I don't know. So I kind of. Of tend to believe they were lying in weight, basically just hoping to run into her. But it's a setup. So a volunteer who was interviewed claims that she heard one of the cops say, like, after Angelika got there, one of the cops say to another cop, it's your turn. Get that. To tell you the story. This is what.

[B]

This font, as old as time. Maybe it's not real real, but maybe it is correct.

[A]

So Decordo is kind of. He's the investigator on this, like, the lead investigator. And I was hesitant to put this in my notes, but I'm gonna say it anyway. He's kind of a slimy dude. That is my opinion. That's my honest opinion. I wasn't sure how I felt at first, but then watching the actual footage, I felt like I could garner a little guess here as to, like, how I feel about him. He's the one who goes to step aside, have a private conversation with her, tell her, you know, you're safe with me. Just tell me what happened. This must be so hard. Whatever. They have this private off air chat on the, on the island and nothing's recorded. Okay, so we don't. This is all alleged on his part.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The way that it's described is that they're talking about how hard this is and like, why does she feel so upset and distraught and guilty? And she mentions that there wasn't a plug in Vincent's kayak. And he's like, hold up, what do you mean there's no plug in the kayak? And she's like, oh, well, it fell out. Out. And my, like, I remember one of the clips. She literally says my cat liked to play with it. She's like, it fell out. And so I didn't put it back in because the cat was playing with it and I knew it wasn't in there.

[B]

So she's like, I shouldn't admitting to this.

[A]

She's saying, yeah, I knew this plug wasn't in there. And so he is like, oh my God, I've got her. Like, this is it. Here's the thing though. He's picturing, like, probably what you're picturing. What I was picturing like a plug in the bottom of the kayak that like you pull and it's, it just, it's actually this drainage hole at the top sort of. That's meant. It's not, it's not meant. It doesn't get water in it. Like, it's not like if it's out, the boat sinks. It's just not how it works. It's like a minimal part of.

[B]

I'm thinking of like Looney Tunes. And if the plug comes undone, then water.

[A]

Exactly. Sprinkling and like the Acme branded bathtub plug. Yeah, yeah, so. So that's kind of what I was picturing. And of course he latches onto this, as I think we all probably would, and they make this like the entire center point of their case without even kind of bothering to look into it. And you have to remember, like, language is a barrier here too. Like, she's from Latvia and, you know, she speaks incredible English. But it's also like the, the nuances of conversation, especially when someone, someone's being manipulative for their job as a police officer, as an investigator, like you're being manipulated, you know, one way or the other. It just felt like an unfair battle. I feel like she didn't Quite know what she was getting herself into. And that becomes abundantly clear because they basically say, will you come to the station with us? But they frame it more like, oh, you're coming to the station with. She never realized. I'll say it now. She never realized she could be like, no know. You know, sure. Like, she just thought, oh, okay, like, I have to go to the station. Like, she just kind of did everything she thought she was supposed to do. According to case files reporting her dad worked in law enforcement in Latvia. And so she had this kind of understanding of, like, oh, I trust other people. Enforcement.

[B]

Trust the police. Okay.

[A]

Like, I trust them. They're gonna, like, just understand what I'm saying. And, like, you know, she just had a totally different understanding thing than most of us do about, like, the American legal system and the. You know, how this all unfolds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's a little bit hard to. Oof. Relay, but essentially he's picturing, like, what you said, like a drainage plug that sinks the kayak. And she says, I know that the. That the plug wasn't in there. He presents it in a way where she's sort of admitting to murder.

[B]

Right. That's what I assumed. I was like. She's admitting that she just, like, Even if it was accidental murder, like manslaughter, she's saying, we took off without a plug, and now it's filling up water about it. Yeah.

[A]

So he thinks she's admitting to murder, and he says, I'm taking you back to the station. And he does all these smarmy things. Like, he's. He's saying, you're a pretty girl. And he, like, puts his hand on her leg to be, like, affectionate. And, like, ugh. It's just gross. Like, you can tell. And he's like, like. And she had said something like, oh, he. She finds him attractive or something. And you can tell he's just, like, leaning into. It's just gross, the whole thing. So anyway, he's. He's being. He's, of course, one of the ones in the selfie, by the way, on the. On the boat.

[B]

Of course, of course. You didn't have to tell me, by the way. I assumed.

[A]

I know you knew. So basically, now that they're on the record, they're being taped and everything. He's like, I need you to tell me again about the police plug. Like, say what you said earlier. And she's like, okay. And. And she's not quite saying what he wants her to say. He wants her to clearly say like, oh, I pulled the plug on his kayak and killed him, you know, and drowned.

[B]

Right.

[A]

On purpose. That's what he's like hoping for. He's like talking in circles a little bit and she's just kind of nodding along. And people talk about that too, as a point of like, being an immigrant in this country. And like, like the people were discussing it on Reddit and saying like, what. What's your take on the. On this interrogation? And people have said like, you know, as someone who is an immigrant or knows an immigrant family or whatever, there's often this like, innate reaction which is like, to just be affirmative. Like, yes. To like, convey that you understand.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Even. Even if you don't necessarily understand or even if, if you're just trying to like, be, I don't know, part of the conversation. There's just like this kind of instinct to verify or to acknowledge, like, understanding. And I feel like that could be. Play into this. And I just mentioned that because there's so much debate online about like, how much of this is cultural versus, sure, she's a murderer. You know, it's just there's really a wide range.

[B]

What a sticky gray space.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. What a, what a place to land. Yikes. So they're trying everything they can to get her to admit. Admit that she killed her fiance. And she's kind of like nodding along, trying to like, understand and like having a back and forth. He tells her. This is like therapy for you.

[B]

What? He's so. What the who? I'm immediately over him. Yeah, I was over. I was over him. I'm over him now.

[A]

We're over him.

[B]

I'm over him. I literally. Okay, so first of all, imagine Quarto detective to quarto detective, more like it. I, I mean, imagine that the person you love.

[A]

Farto, you know?

[B]

Yeah, Detective Farto. Yeah, Detective flatulence. I like, imagine the person you love drifting away, screaming for help. There's a language barrier. You're on a island. When you finally get found out, you think you should be able to trust the system, as we all should be able to and yet can't. And then we get there.

[A]

That's the other thing to remind. Like, we should inherently have. Be able to if. If all things were. Well, we should. You're right.

[B]

They're supposed to be protecting us. And yet.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

But like, imagine like going through everything she. Assuming that she's innocent here. Imagine going through everything she's gone through and this shock that she is in. I'm. She's probably Trying to hold it together because she knows on top of wanting to grieve, she has a whole language barrier to prevent herself from jail. Like that.

[A]

Okay, okay. So. Exactly. And also, she didn't even realize at this point that she was, like, even in a.

[B]

Like a suspect on the hook.

[A]

No. Yeah. She did not understand. She really didn't understand.

[B]

So she's just feeding them information.

[A]

She's just, like, giving them the story. Like, she's like, well, this is what happened. And it gets. It goes bad because of course, she doesn't know she's supposed to call a lawyer, you know, and all this. And like, you made a point about grieving and, like, you're supposed to be. There's this language barrier. And people have also discussed, like, in Lavia, they even interviewed her family and people from her neck of the woods, so to speak, and they were like, oh, you don't cry in public. You don't show emotion in, like. That's. I don't know how true this is. This is just a couple people who said it on the documentary, but they were like, of course she's not going to, like, cry and whale hysterically in public. Like, we're trained to not do that. That's culturally. Like, we need to have it all together. Like, we need to put up a mask in a facade.

[B]

And that's so many additional layers. First of all, I don't know how you train somebody to not. Not cry when the person they love is dying in front of them or maybe going to die in front of them. That's crazy. That's wild. Like, I could never do. I would. I would fail in life.

[A]

I mean, I think that was more shock, probably. And, like, she certainly had much. She had a lot of grieving. Like, she wasn't like, totally.

[B]

No, no. What I'm saying is I. I can't imagine publicly keeping that together because, yeah, she probably just wants to go home and finally let loose and scream, cry. Like, I, like, like, lose her mind. And yet she's.

[A]

But now she's, like, under scrutiny.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. Like, she already has to disassociate that much if culturally she believes that's what she's supposed to do.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And, like, they're not even letting her leave to go properly grieve privately because now they're holding her where she's trying to be nothing but cordial.

[A]

But it looks.

[B]

Now it looks suspicious and. Yeah.

[A]

And she's on her period. Fat.

[B]

Poor girl.

[A]

I know. And like, like, and.

[B]

And she's still not crying, by the way. Like she's like, like, like she's just like sitting with all of this and just feels uncomfortable and is in pain probably.

[A]

Okay, what caveats? She claims she was. She alleges she was on her period and that they were giving her a hard time about going to the bathroom.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

I know. So I want to point that out. Secondly, she was doing like yoga and other things in the room. And people have always pointed to this to be like, who the does like sun salutation in the interrogation room? And it's sort of like, isn't she crazy? And it's like, okay, she's on her period. Allegedly. She's. This is 11 hours of interrogation.

[B]

Yeah, she needs to stretch.

[A]

She's just like, whatever. Maybe she has cramps. Maybe she's just stretching. Who the knows?

[B]

Maybe like sensory wise she's just like trying to like get some energy out.

[A]

Because she going to Dr. She still.

[B]

Hasn'T been allowed to cry. So like, maybe she's just like trying to like be active and distract herself. Herself something.

[A]

Yeah, it just feels like it's, pardon my pun, like a stretch to say, oh, that's just her proving that she killed him. It's like I don't see the correlation.

[B]

There, you know, I don't care how sad I am. If I sat for 11 hours, I would have to stretch.

[A]

Yeah, it feels like a weird thing to not. And I think maybe this is again where the time like the, the zeitgeist is like so different. Like nowadays. Yeah, if you saw someone doing stretches and you wouldn't be like, that's weird as like now it's like, okay, everyone's doing like workplace yoga stretches. Like nothing. Not that weird anymore.

[B]

Bad circulation. Like there's a way to explain things.

[A]

Yeah, it feels like nowadays that wouldn't be as much of a like a point in the case, but back then it was like all the rage to talk about how weird she was in the interrogation room. I mean, she really just was doing yoga. But what do I know? This feels like something that should have existed for a long time. Nobody likes paying rent. Okay, I bet you don't either. But Built makes it feel a little better. Built is a loyalty program for renters that rewards you monthly with points and exclusive benefits in your neighborhood. Let m explain.

[B]

Hang on, let me crack my fingers. Oh, I actually cracked one.

[A]

Oh, that was like really good.

[B]

I'm sorry. With built, every rent pay payment earns you points that can be used towards flights, hotels, lift rides. So much More. And here's something that we're really excited about. Starting in February, Built members can earn points on mortgage payments for the first time. So we also get to enjoy Built and, and soon you'll be able to get rewarded wherever you live and unlock exclusive benefits with more than 45, 000 restaurants, fitness studios, pharmacies, other neighborhood partners. It's just, it's such a lovely system.

[A]

I. I'm. I'm gonna redeem mine for, for food.

[B]

Probably a thousand percent.

[A]

Or anything like that, you know. Join the loyalty program for renters at join built.com drink. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com drink. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Okay, so next they ask about her relationship with Vincent. And like you said, she's just talking. She's just feeding them the story. Okay, so when they ask, like, she was bound to get herself in trouble here because they asked about her relationship with Vincent and she said it was difficult, it was turbulent. I know it was emotionally uneven, and she was unhappy. And, you know, they've got this plug thing in the back of their mind, right? Because they haven't, like, found. They haven't, like, looked up what this thing is yet, really. So. So they're not even. I don't think they even understand that this is not like the Acme plug we talked about. Could they have checked in those 11 hours? Yeah, probably. But what. Whatever. So they're like, really? You are unhappy. Oh, my gosh. But you're such a beautiful girl. Like, tell me more. You know, just like, the gross. Just the gross behavior. She said she felt trapped, and she said she struggled to confront people directly. She didn't know how to end her engagement, even though she was emotionally checked out. And they were like, ding, ding, ding, we've got you.

[B]

She said, by the way, that makes me feel. Unless she's really. I feel like this makes me feel like she's innocent. Because if she was trying to get away with it, there's no way she'd be saying this.

[A]

That's the other thing I'm like. But would a person. Unless you really are, like, totally beyond, like, any sort of social norms, but, like, posting cigar photos and shots, taking shots on the Internet is also not something you would do if you're trying to get away with it either.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

No, like, but I'm like, to your point, like, I don't think any of this behavior is, like, what you would do if you were Guilty?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I don't know, like, what. What anyone would do. Okay. But, like.

[B]

But you would try to keep it together and look, like, really, like, yeah.

[A]

I don't think you would be, like, spilling all your secrets if you were guilty. But, like, I guess people argue that she just didn't know, didn't know, didn't care, you know, I'm not really sure, but that is a good point because. Because she is just, like, spilling it. And I mean, to be fair, the way he presents it is not like we're looking at you as the cause of this. Like, she doesn't even clock that yet. He's basically just saying, like, this is a therapy session and you can just let it, like, vent, you know, and she. Someone made a good point, too, of, like, she didn't have anyone else to vent to. And she's been, like. Like you said, grieving or attempting to for days. And it's like, this is the first person who's like, just tell me what's going on. What are you feeling? And she's like. Like, here you go. And it all went to because of that, or she did do it, and I could be wrong. You know what I mean? Okay. So she said Vincent loved her more than she loved him. She said that imbalance really weighed on her conscience. She felt overwhelmed by his expectations, his attention. She even expressed some, like, very upsetting things about, like, rape, you know, and, like, pressuring her to do things sexually that she did not want to do. And when asked if in the documentary, I don't know that she necessarily alluded to this so specifically in the interrogation, but in the documentary later, when they're just talking to her in more recent years, they asked if he had assaulted her, and she said yes. So all that to say she's, like, spilling her guts here about how uneven she felt, unsteady in the relationship, how she was checked out emotionally, she didn't know how to get out of it. Just all really bad, all red flags, or at least what investigators are calling red flags. They also found, I will say, a lot of sex paraphernalia in the house to back up her claims. Like, a lot of, like, bondage stuff. And that's what she had said is like, I'm not comfortable with doing these things. But, like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He wants me to. And so, you know, they did find stuff at the house to back that claim up. And of course, now they're goading her on, right? They're like, okay, spill it, you know, and they finally get to the Event of Vincent actually drowning. And when they discuss Vincent going into the water, they're like, but wasn't that. Wasn't part of you relieved? Weren't you, like, a little bit relieved? Believed. And essentially she admits, like, yeah, it felt good. Like, part of it felt good. I know.

[B]

Poor thing.

[A]

And so police were like, well, that's not a good look. She said. She says, now, that statement was taken way out of context, but at the time, investigators were like, she admitted it. You know, it felt good. She admitted it. She killed him. They still couldn't. Couldn't get what they wanted, though, which was for her to say outright, like, I took the plug out to kill him. They wanted her to say it so badly. Like, you can tell. They're literally saying, like, just tell us you did. And that's. She's like, no, I did not do that. In the video playback, you can see she never says she takes the plug out to kill him, but they're now trying to get her to say that she subconsciously took the plug out out.

[B]

What?

[A]

Because she's subc. She wanted him to die.

[B]

Part of her just wanted this. And even she didn't know.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And that's a gas excuse. They're gonna. They think that holds up in court.

[A]

Saying that's what they're literally saying. And so she says. She. She, like, pauses, and she. And he's like, just say it. What do you have to say? And she says, well, it's psychological. I'm just trying to understand myself, like, how and why I would do that. Like, they're literally telling her, like, this is what happened.

[B]

So she's even saying.

[A]

Trying to understand.

[B]

She's even saying in. That doesn't fly. Like, I'm.

[A]

No. She's like, I don't think so.

[B]

Like, that would be silly. No, I don't want that.

[A]

We're talking, like, 10 hours in at this point. Okay?

[B]

She's losing it. I don't. And poor her.

[A]

And she says, well, it's psychological. I'm just trying to understand myself, like, how and why I would do that. I didn't want anybody hurt. I never would want anybody hurt. And then he says, so why do you feel guilt? And she says, because of that thought I had, that I wanted to be free, that I wanted him to be gone. So I felt guilty about that.

[B]

That. Which is normal.

[A]

I mean, which I feel like is pretty valid. Like, unfortunately, if I were unhappy in.

[B]

My relationship and then she died, I would be like, well, you know, you'd be like, phew, thank God. No, I'd be like, I'm really. I feel guilty because part of me wished for a way out. And this.

[A]

Right, because you feel almost. And then if you remember, like, oh, I knew that, like, that one plug was out, which, like, by the way, spoiler alert, they, like, proved that that has enough. It. That was a very. They said, like, a negligible, of course thing for cause of death. Like, that. We'll get there. So, yeah, he's basically trying to get her to admit that she subconsciously did this. It's just like a stretch, you know? Talk about stretch. So the interrogation drags on for hours, but she never directly admitted to killing Vincent. And when it was insinuated that she. At one point, they were like, well, when you watched him drown, and she shouted, no, I didn't watch him drown. I tried to do something about it. Yeah, but they're just. She's like, now being like, wait a minute. They're like, misunderstanding all of this, you know, unfortunately, too little, too late.

[B]

10 hours of information in, she's like, and yes, and now I have to recover with my language barrier while I, like, also very aware that I, My, my, my. The love of my life is dead.

[A]

And now I'm like, wait, I'm. I'm a suspect here? Like, like the panic.

[B]

Also, like the panic.

[A]

They're, like, manipulating her, being like, you're pretty and, like, who would want to hurt? It's just, like, gross. It's gross. It's gross. I know that this is, like, part of the job or whatever, but I don't like it.

[B]

I don't like it.

[A]

So the 11 hours of interrogation gives context to this yoga, stretching and all that. I mean, we talked about that. I don't find that. That weird. She also now claims, like, she said, well, I was also on my period, and so I was uncomfortable. They weren't. They were. Were, like, limiting my interaction with people, my bathroom use. Like, it was just. They were making her uncomfortable again, which I know is part of the job. She was not under arrest at this point. Okay. Her defense would later argue that the interviews were coercive because she was exhausted, her words were taken out of context. And they also argued that some of this stuff shouldn't even be admissible because she hadn't been Mirandized. But whatever you believe, she clearly did not have an understanding of, like, where this was going at first, and she did not understand that she needed a lawyer and could call for one. So from the police perspective, they were homing in on their Target. They were like, oh my God, she's finally admitting what she did. They later testified that Angelika's admissions about the drain plug and her comments about Vince's Vincent's death were what led them to believe that this was not an accident incident. And it's like, okay, so suddenly this is a homicide case. And the quarto's partner barges into the interrogation room at one point and is like, there's a gun missing from your house. So apparently Vincent had had two weapons in the house, two guns. And one of them, when they searched the home, one of the guns was missing. So they go, they go to her and they're like, like, where's that gun? And she's like, I don't know.

[B]

And also, what does it matter? He didn't die by gun. What does a.

[A]

Well, they said, did you shoot him? Oh my God, his body.

[B]

I'm pissed.

[A]

So now they're like, do you. Do you have the gun? Where is it? Is that how you killed him? You shot him? And she was like, no. And I imagine that at this point she's like losing it. They're pushing her. They're pushing her. They're saying, you killed him. You killed him. Just admit it. It. These are direct quotes. And she said, you want your statement? And they're like, just say it. Just tell us what we already know. And she says, I wanted him dead and now he's gone. And I'm okay with that. And is basically like, is that what you wanted me to say? Kind of thing, you know?

[B]

Well, that's classic. Just saying exactly what they want to hear. And now you can't back out of that.

[A]

They arrest her. Of course, not long after this, they find the body and lo and behold, as you expected, there was no gun shot. The gun had nothing to do with it.

[B]

Sometimes I feel like you tell a story and I'm like, I love that you did the research, but you don't even have to keep going.

[A]

You could have just asked.

[B]

Pissed off.

[A]

Okay? There's no sign of foul play, no bullet wound, nothing like that. But the coroner's report, I'm no expert. It's wacko. Okay, listen to this. The coroner's report is marked as homicide. And remember, coroner's work closely with police and, and law enforcement, all that, it's marked as homicide. And the cause of death is, and I quote, kayak drain plug intentionally removed by other.

[B]

Wow. So just straight up thrown her under the bus.

[A]

Literally saying someone pulled a drink, which, like, again, they're not even looking at what this thing is. It's like, this big, and it's, like, on top of the kayak. It's not what everyone thinks it is, but the fact that the corner was like, yep, that's the murder weapon. It's a kayak with a little hole in it. And she. It's just. What are you talking about?

[B]

That. Clearly, the first of all, that corner, I pray to God, is fired. Like, there is probably not. How do you even. So I'm assuming, spoiler alert, we find out that that had nothing to do with it, since it is what you already said. So then he. Did this corner even investigate? Did this corner just get a $5bill from his cop friend? And he's like, oh, yes, we figured that one out. Slammed.

[A]

Well, no, because I'm sure they wanted to find a bullet wound. Wound. You know, I'm sure they wanted to say she shot him. And so they were probably hoping he would find a sign. But they said they looked inside and out. They looked all over this poor man, and he had not been shot. So that's just nuts to me that you could say that the cause of death is, quote, kayak drain plug. Intentionally. How do you know it's intentional? Like, none of that makes sense anyway. It's just maddening.

[B]

It's just.

[A]

Wow, Wild. So the defense gets, of course, a kayak expert to testify, right? This guy's name is Todd Wright. They basically. He basically points out that when police did testing. Because they did tests where. When they finally figured out what this drain plug thing was, it's a small hole on top of. And you don't want it to be missing, to be fair, like, you. Because water will get in there. But typically water comes, like, from the side into the. The cabin. I have no idea. Wow, question mark over here. Oh, yeah, you know me. So Todd was like. When the police did this, they were like, clearly. You could watch the. He was watching the footage. He's like. You could clearly see they're trying to splash water into the hole to get the boat to fill up. Like, they're like, forcefully. He's like, this is not how a person would kayak.

[B]

He didn't say, it's not how she did it, and it's not how.

[A]

Is that how he did it? Come on.

[B]

Even if she wanted to kill him and that was how wouldn't he be like, what are you doing? This is stupid.

[A]

Well, he was in his own kayak, so it's like he was the only one controlling his kayak. So it's Right.

[B]

So there's no way.

[A]

It's just a strange thing to. It's just strange. So this Todd guy says, no, this. This tiny hole. Oh. Oh, the police also, I forgot about this part. Had, like, motorboats, like, power boats going by really fast to try and create wake to splash into the hole to fill the boat. And it's like, if you have to have, like, motorboats driving around in circles around you to try and get enough wave action. Yeah, it's just silly. It's just.

[B]

So at this point, they're not actually investigating. They're forcing a narrative, like.

[A]

Yes, exactly. And it's like they're clinging to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, like, let the go, you know, as far as I'm concerned, again, I don't. I don't. I don't quite know what's going on, but the water was 44.5 degrees. He has what is apparently a pretty lame quality pond kayak. Not really suitable for, like, the Hudson. He had no wetsuit. Not only that, he had no life jacket. He'd had several beers in his cooler. They'd found several empty Mike's Harder Lemonades in there. His blood alcohol was around 0.066, which is legally impaired in New York State, but not, like, trashed. But still, you know, the weather picks up. He's not wearing a life vest. One thing goes wrong. He's in the water. It's 44 degrees in there. I don't know. I just. I don't find it that shocking of a scenario.

[B]

Me either.

[A]

And I don't see how. How Angelika could have plotted that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Unless she literally physically pushed him over. You know what I mean? Like. Or did something, like, really aggressive or assertive. But it seems like the. The claim that she just had removed a plug on the top and that's what killed him. Like, there's no way that would have. That's a dumb plan, and it wouldn't have worked. You know, it's just weird. Anyway, so before the case was set to go to trial, Angelika took a plea deal, and she agreed to plead guilty to the lesser felony charge of criminally negligent homicide. She basically admitted that she should have perceived the risks associated with the situation, but claims to this day that she hadn't never wanted Vincent dead, had nothing to do with his death, was not intentional. But she was sentenced to four years, which is the maximum sentence for that charge. And Vincent's family still blames her to this day.

[B]

What for?

[A]

Okay, well, they never liked her anyway, so don't Worry about it. It's a whole thing.

[B]

Stupid. Okay.

[A]

I just. I mean, I. I can understand, like, okay, you feel like she should have done something, said something, but it's like he's 40. Be 2 or 7 or whatever. Like, he's old enough to know not to go in the water without a life jacket. And like, the plug had nothing to, like, I mean, it didn't have nothing to do with it maybe, but it didn't cause the situation, you know, but she got four years.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And what strikes me honestly about this case is that she was so fundamentally misunderstanding of how. How. Of what was happening, like, in the. In the interrogation room, from cultural. Different differences. Like, I. Whether she was naive, she had no clue she could just leave. She even said, like, the thought never crossed her mind that she could leave.

[B]

Well, sure. She grew. She came from an area where, I guess the police are on your side, so why would you. Yeah.

[A]

Or at least on her side. Right, Exactly. And she said, I thought that by speaking and telling them everything that I knew that I would just clear it up, I wouldn't need a lawyer and I would be free. But, boy, was I naive. She was released from prison on December 21, 2017, after serving about 16 months and understandably lives a quiet life and maintains that she never wanted Vincent dead. And you can clearly tell where I fall in this case, but it took me like, several episodes to. Because you hear like, a drain plug was pulled out and she knew about it. And you're like, well, that sounds suspicious. You know, like, it does. It sounds. Looking sus.

[B]

Yeah, it does. I am exactly where you are, Christine. I am on board with you. That's crazy.

[A]

It just felt like this was a tragic accident, in my opinion.

[B]

But 100.

[A]

Anyway, thanks everyone, for listening. That was a long one. My bad. I keep doing that.

[B]

No, that was. I appreciated it. I like that.

[A]

And yeah, if you have any suggestions or any stories to send in for next listening episode, you can go to our website. That's also where. Where we list all the episodes and their numbers and their transcripts on there. You can search through. So that's really handy. Other than that, I don't know that we have anything else to add, do we?

[B]

I don't think so. I feel like I got nothing. I got nothing. How about that?

[A]

Well, like, add us on my Addison MySpace.

[B]

Oh, man, I hope everyone joins Patreon just so they can listen to me us fill out our MySpace questionnaires.

[A]

Next week, we should discuss the. The politics of the top eight, because that was its own, like, social hierarchy situation.

[B]

Do not dirty talk to me like that, because I would love to. And I. I would love to. All right, great. Well, we got a plan. And noted.

[A]

That's why we drink.