E477 Rat Directions and Pantsless Ghost Hunts

Summary

And That's Why We Drink – Episode 477: "Rat Directions and Pantsless Ghost Hunts"

Release Date: April 5, 2026
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Main Themes: Processing clutter, true crime intersecting with paranormal TV, childhood horror tales, the monkey’s paw motif, domestic violence, reality vs. the supernatural

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Episode Overview

This episode of "And That's Why We Drink" blends the personal with the paranormal and true crime, as Christine and Em start with reflections on home organization and nostalgia before diving into chilling territory. Em delivers a lively, in-depth retelling and discussion of classic horror story "The Monkey’s Paw," examining its literary impact and retrospective complexities. Christine then covers the tragic, true crime-laden story of Ghost Adventures’ recurring guest investigators Mark and Debbie Constantino, whose fame in paranormal TV ended in a devastating murder-suicide. The result is an episode full of dark humor, pop culture references, literary analysis, and a serious approach to sensitive topics.

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**Personal Catch-up:

"Home Clutter, Attachment, and Letting Go"**

• Time: 02:46–17:04

Key Discussion Points

• Both hosts share updates on home projects, frustrations over unachieved décor goals, and the emotional baggage of clutter.
• Conversations meander into family habits around saving (or not saving) memorabilia, and the differing personalities in their relationships when it comes to hoarding or minimalism.
• Christine discusses her ongoing project of decluttering and the joy and pain of rediscovering and letting go of old keepsakes.
  • Quote (Christine, 07:17): “Now that I’m getting myself healed up a little bit, I’m like, oh, I don’t need to hold onto this, like, straw wrapper because my ex-boyfriend gave it to me.”
• Both hosts explore anxiety around keeping or disposing of personal items, and how larger or smaller living spaces influence this.

Memorable Moment

• Christine relates, with self-deprecating humor, to pushing her husband’s clothes to inaccessible corners, recognizing how these household foibles reflect broader relationship dynamics.

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Parenting & Childhood Fears: The Power of Stories

• Time: 18:04–22:54

Key Discussion Points

• Christine recounts a recent parenting fail, giving Leona (her daughter) a children’s book meant to be empowering but instead provoking intense fear—the child demands the book be put out of sight, linking the fear to a broader ongoing concern about wolves.
  • Quote (Christine, 19:41): “She’s like, burn it. Literally burn it.”
• Em and Christine discuss how kids’ fears often have logic adults don’t always follow, and how their own upbringings with spooky literature shaped (or didn’t shape) their reactions.

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Drinks and Inside Jokes

• Time: 22:54–24:30

Key Discussion Points

• The hosts riff on their respective, underwhelming beverages while reprising the show’s long-running “thirsty little rats” catchphrase with trademark crass humor.
  • Quote (Em, 24:05): “You thirsty, little effing rats? Drink some water.”

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Story Segment 1: Em’s Book Report – “The Monkey’s Paw”

• Time: 27:19–77:12

Key Discussion Points

Nostalgia for School Assignments & Reading Avoidance

• Both hosts reflect on dodging assigned reading in school, the wish for audiobooks, and how their personalities and life circumstances made reading difficult or unappealing as teens.

The Story Recap

• Em retells "The Monkey’s Paw" in detail, infusing the segment with humor and their unique narrative voice:
  • A London family (the Whites) receives a visit from a friend, Sergeant Major Morris, who brings a supposedly cursed monkey’s paw.
  • The paw grants three wishes per owner but with catastrophic, ironic outcomes—demonstrating the moral “be careful what you wish for.”
  • The family wishes for 200 pounds to pay off their mortgage; soon after, the son dies in a work accident and the payout equals the wish.
  • In grief, the wife insists on using the second wish to bring their son back; strange phenomena ensue, culminating in frantic knocking at the door. The husband uses the final wish—implied to send the son back to the grave—and the story ends with emptiness and loss.

Literary Themes & Analysis

• Em offers a layperson’s literary breakdown, highlighting:
  • Foreshadowing via risky chess moves.
  • The symbolism of the number three.
  • The ambiguity about whether the paw is real or a coincidence.
  • Retrospective discussion about the problematic, racialized elements of the story, situating its British colonial context and how its warnings about "dangerous" Indian magic reflect imperialist anxieties.
• Christine proposes the story can be read as comedic or satirical colonial commentary, joking that its heavy subtext would have gone over their heads as teens.
  • Quote (Em, 66:40): “What if the monkey’s paw was just, like, a silly story that this guy told about on his travels and he threw it in a fire for the gimmick, and, like, it was just some paw that he picked up along the way? And there was never magic...”

Memorable Moments

• Sympathetic riffs about what, exactly, the characters wish for ("pay off the loan is not like a risky wish").
• Em’s delivery of the “campfire knocks” (61:00), creating genuine atmosphere amid the laughter.
• Christine’s reaction to the grim twist, and her speculation about the ambiguous ending.

Pop Culture Legacy

• Em wraps with "Monkey’s Paw" fun facts: From literary origin (1902, by a comedic writer) to its many stage, film, and TV adaptations. Stephen King’s "Pet Sematary" and various TV shows ("Simpsons," "Are You Afraid of the Dark?") are cited as inspired by the motif.

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Story Segment 2: Christine’s True Crime – The Constantino Case

• Time: 81:28–116:47

Key Discussion Points

Who Were Mark & Debbie Constantino?

• Their rise to fame as married paranormal investigators, specializing in EVP (electronic voice phenomena), frequent contributors to "Ghost Adventures" led by Zak Bagans.
  • Quote (Christine, 83:02): “Together they launched a website called Spirits Speak … most specifically with electronic voice phenomena.”
• Mark enters the field as a skeptic; Debbie claims a lifelong connection to the paranormal.
• Both become "guest experts" on the Ghost Adventures team—drawing a following as a "paranormal power couple."

Trouble Behind the Scenes

• Beneath media success, their marriage is marked by mutual domestic violence, which escalates in 2015:
  • Debbie arrested for allegedly cutting Mark with a kitchen knife (March).
  • Mark and daughter Raquel kidnap and assault Debbie (August—six weeks before the murder-suicide).
  • Restraining orders are issued but do not protect Debbie; Christine reads excerpts from "The Gift of Fear" discussing why such orders are often ineffective against dangerous abusers.
    • Quote (From "The Gift of Fear," 98:53): “Restraining orders are most effective on the reasonable person who has a limited emotional investment...if the goal is to prevent a murder, the civil restraining order is probably the wrong strategy...rejection is a very common trigger to violence.”

The Crime

• On September 22, 2015, after kidnapping Debbie, Mark kills another man (James Anderson, a roommate), abducts Debbie to their daughter’s apartment, kills her, then himself, following a tense police standoff.
• The horror—and failures of both the justice system and personal safety—are underscored by the hosts’ frustration at how signs were missed or minimized.

Aftermath & Media Resonance

• "Ghost Adventures" episodes featuring the Constantinos are quietly pulled from streaming. Zak Bagans tweets condolences and grieves on-air during a tribute investigation at the Washoe Club.
• Christine describes the complicated fan reaction:
  • Some grieve sincerely; others circulate damaging myths attributing Mark’s violence to being "possessed by demons" rather than holding him to account.
    • Quote (Christine, 104:49): “Some fans suggest that Mark's actions were caused by demons or dark entities that attach because he wasn’t ghost hunting safely enough... No, he was a documented abuser, and like he made a human decision to murder his wife.”

Discussion of Domestic Violence

• Christine provides current US statistics and resources for anyone experiencing intimate partner violence.
• The hosts urge listeners not to explain crimes away as paranormal possession or attachment, but rather to recognize underlying patterns: domestic violence is common, dangerous, and demands serious attention.

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Ghost Adventures, Pop Culture & Grief

• Time: 109:15–121:36

Key Discussion Points

• Both hosts critique (and, in places, defend) Zak Bagans and the handling of the Constantino tragedy on "Ghost Adventures":
  • Zak and crew revisit Washoe Club, purportedly contact Debbie via EVP, and openly weep on camera. Fans debate whether this is healing, exploitative, or both.
  • Christine notes that, while some moments are unintentionally comic (Zak’s shirt on display in a museum case; a detour into making chocolate turtles at a candy shop immediately after supposed ghost contact), the grief in some parts feels genuine.
  • Christine: “He’s always himself... even in grief.”

Memorable Moments

• The episode’s signature blend of irreverence and sincerity is on display as Christine both mocks and empathizes with the show’s odd tonal shifts, including Zak’s candy store distraction.
• Both hosts express gratitude for finding catharsis in investigating, talking about, and sometimes lightly mocking the very stories that trouble or confuse them.

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Show Wrap-up & Listener Resources

• Brief mentions of upcoming travel, projects, and audience engagement (Snooki/Jersey Shore jokes).
• Christine reiterates the importance of recognizing, supporting, and understanding the dynamics of domestic violence.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “[The monkey’s paw]... the only thing I really remembered is that you have to be careful what you wish for.” – Em, 28:36
• “Restraining orders are most effective on the reasonable person who has a limited emotional investment...if the goal is to prevent a murder, the civil restraining order is probably the wrong strategy.” – The Gift of Fear (quoted by Christine), 98:53
• “He was a documented abuser and he made a human decision to murder his wife. So I just don’t find much value in saying a demon did it...” – Christine, 104:49
• “He’s always himself, even in grief.” – Christine, 115:30

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Clutter, nostalgia, home-lives: 02:46–17:04
• Childhood fears, parenting: 18:04–22:54
• "Monkey’s Paw" segment (Em’s book report): 27:19–77:12
• Constantino case background: 81:28–85:15
• Abuse, legal failures, and murder: 89:20–102:06
• Aftermath and Ghost Adventures tribute: 106:23–121:36

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Episode Tone & Style

An intense blend of laughter, self-deprecation, trauma processing, pop culture riffing, and literary/true crime analysis—often moving seamlessly between sarcasm, empathy, and serious reflection.

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Resources

If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence:

• National Domestic Violence Hotline: [phone]-SAFE
• Text: "START" to 88788
• thehotline.org

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Why Do They Drink?

Because the past—a haunted house, a school assignment, or a television hero—never stays neatly tucked away and the lines between horror and reality are thinner than we think.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Christine]

K Pop Demon Hunters, Saja Boy's breakfast meal and Hunt Trick's meal have just dropped at McDonald's.

[M]

They're calling this a battle for the fans.

[Christine]

What do you say to that, Rumi?

[M]

It's not a battle.

[Christine]

So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[M]

It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor.

[Christine]

No, really, stop.

[M]

You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side. Ba da ba ba ba. And participate in McDonald's while supplies last. Think Verizon is expensive?

[Christine]

Think again. Anyone can bring their AT&T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today

[M]

and we'll give you a better deal. So bring us your bill, walk in,

[Christine]

run in, pogo sticking, teleport if you can ride on the back of a rollerblading yak or fly in on the wings of a majestic falcon. Any way you can bring your AT&T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal on the best network based

[M]

on Routemetric's best overall mobile network performance. US second half 2025. All rights reserved.

[Christine]

Must provide very recent postpaid consumer mobile

[M]

bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions, and restrictions apply. Christine literally just said, hey, you have experience with the Helix mattress, don't you? And I said, why, surely 10 minutes

[Christine]

ago I did you talk about it. I know you just have a lot to say. We both do. But I'm gonna, like, hand the mic over because I know you're just rearing to tell people about this Helix mattress.

[M]

There's nothing I love more than my Helix mattress. I First of all, my favorite hobby is sleeping. So already we had, we were starting on good terms, me and this mattress. Then I laid down and, and I could hear angels sing, let's put it that way.

[Christine]

I this is, like, not a joke. I do remember the first time I laid on my mattress and they were not a sponsor at this point. And I remember going, oh, my God, I'm a real adult. Like, I felt like I've made it, you know?

[M]

Yeah, I mean, my, my back, I, I'm one of those people, unfortunately, I will just always have problems with my bones and man, my back feels a okay on a Helix mattress. I just came from a bunch of hotels where I, I, I was not staying on the world's best mattresses, let's just put it that way. And every morning I woke up, and this was the sound. It was not angel singing, by the way. It was this. It was getting out of the bed,

[Christine]

and it was a choir from hell. Just kind of groaning.

[M]

It was a choir from hell. It's exactly right. And, you know, with my Helix mattress

[Christine]

at home, none of that, oh, beautiful, beautiful stuff. It's award winning for a reason. Go to helixsleep.com drink for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com drink for twenty percent off site sitewide.

[M]

Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know that we sent you. That's helix sleep.com drink. Welcome to the day after the Hannah Montana anniversary.

[Christine]

Okay. At. When this comes out.

[M]

Oh, no. As we're recording.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. Because I was like, I thought that you just experienced this. Okay. Okay. Hey, how are you feel. Feeling?

[M]

I am.

[Christine]

I didn't even say peeling. And, you know, I wanted to.

[M]

I heard it. Don't worry. It really. I. It was screamed into my psyche. Say it anyway.

[Christine]

How are you peeling bananas?

[M]

It feels bananas. Over here.

[Christine]

Got him. I.

[M]

It was really wonderful. For those who celebrated Yesterday was the 20th anniversary of the Hannah Montana premiere. Miley Cyrus manifested this. It was not even supposed to really happen. She just started saying it on carpets. She was like, oh, yeah, there's a big anniversary thing happening. And then her lawyers were like, what are you talking about?

[Christine]

And she was like, the. This is what Gandhi's talking about. You know what I'm trying to say? Be the change you want to be the change. You know, it's like, get it, girl. Yes.

[M]

Love that. So I was very excited about that. Allison threw me a nice little shindig.

[Christine]

Love. Oh, I saw that. Wow. You had a whole out. By the way, that little patio is looking fine.

[M]

Oh, thank you. It's still very. Here's the thing.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I was like, this looks just like.

[M]

I appreciate what you're saying.

[Christine]

Movie night.

[M]

I appreciate the words, but I don't agree with you because I. There was a time my. When Allison was gone, I was trying to surprise her. I had these big plans. Big, big plans.

[Christine]

No.

[M]

Where I was like, oh, I'm going to buy all these, like, plants and make it very lush. I wanted to look like an escape, but I wanted you not to be able to see because it's basically just concrete walls back there. And I was like, I want to h all that. I want to feel like you're in, like, a fairy garden. Water all these plants. She ended up extending her stay as we all knew, and I didn't know how to take care of the plants, and they all died.

[Christine]

All good. Oh, good. I'm sure Hank liked to be involved also.

[M]

He was shockingly okay about the plants, but I did. I was worried about that also. But anyway, I had a vision for how it was supposed to look, and to me, it just looks so white and barren, and I just. I, like, just wanted. I don't even know if baron's the right word. Bear. Bear. But it was. I just got so overwhelmed when Allison came home, and I was like, it doesn't look like anything. I wanted it. Like, I wanted the lights everywhere.

[Christine]

And anyway, you'll get there. You'll get there. I listen. I know that frustration and that disappointment so well. Like, if you had told me that six years after moving in this house, like, if. If I were to see what it looks like right now in this office, like, I would be devastated because I had such, like, dramatic plans, right? But it's like, it's been so many different things, and then I change my mind and my style, and then, like, oh, I had a baby, so, like, I made a nurse. You know, things. I feel like projects just kind of become more nebulous, and, like, as you grow into your house, it'll become much more.

[M]

I think you're. Well, that's because it's funny you mentioned that. I'm on the flip side, where you're like, oh, this room doesn't look like anything I wanted it to. And I've always thought that's, like, the coolest looking room. So.

[Christine]

Well, I guess look around and you'll see as you've. You can probably imagine, well, just how absolutely behind anything you can see is just hurricane, tornado.

[M]

You've always said that, and I've never been as overwhelmed as you make it seem. Oh, fashion show at lunch.

[Christine]

And this is. This is after a lot, a lot, a lot.

[M]

Months, years of, this is a brave moment. That's not as bad as you think it is.

[Christine]

It's not as bad, but that's the after. That's the clean version. What is.

[M]

Are you wearing, like, the Hope diamond or something from Titanic? What is this?

[Christine]

You're like, the third person to ask you about it. It's just my little scarab from Egypt.

[M]

I love it. I've never seen it on you before.

[Christine]

Oh, thank you. My therapist also said something, and she's like, is that a little beetle? I don't know. It's getting a lot of.

[M]

It's.

[Christine]

It's giving off some energy. Today. I think it's got a lot of play.

[M]

A lot of play.

[Christine]

Yeah. I love her. She's. I got her at a jewelry store in Egypt. They told me it was some. Something special, and I probably got totally suckered, but I love it.

[M]

Well, no, it's very beautiful. And you're. I. I know. I know that you constantly have an overwhelm about how your house may or may not be clean, but I've. As someone who's been in your home, I have never been as overwhelmed as I think you feel.

[Christine]

That really does. That really does soothe me. Thank you. I do appreciate that. Because I really. Sometimes I'm like, are people just like, what the fuck is wrong with her?

[M]

No, I've never thought that.

[Christine]

I'm pretty good at hiding some stuff. So I think, like, typically when people come over, I'm just like, you know, mess goes in.

[M]

It just gets shifted from room to room.

[Christine]

Yeah, totally, totally. But now that I'm getting myself healed up a little bit, I'm like, oh, I don't need to hold onto this, like, straw wrapper because, like, my ex boyfriend gave it to me. You know what I mean?

[M]

I'm not there yet, but I am proud of you.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[M]

I still have thing, like. I mean, Allison got me a Hannah Montana wig, and now I'm gonna have to hold onto it until, like, the 50th anniversary.

[Christine]

I'm talking. I'm talking 2006. Six, like, trash from, like, Dunkin Donuts that, like, there's no, like, what? No, Nobody wants this. Nobody even knows what it is. It's just trash. What is happening?

[M]

You know, I. Again, I have also. I have been there, where I've also collected and held on to trash, because in my mind, it was like, this was the burger wrapper.

[Christine]

Like, it has meaning. Yeah.

[M]

But luckily, I tucked it away in a memory box for so long that when I saw it again, I was like, I don't even remember what this is for, and then threw it away.

[Christine]

Exactly. That's what I mean. It's like, what is this trash? Like, I barely even know what this. And I was like, it's so important. And I'm like, it's just, like, weighing me down. You know what I mean, brother?

[M]

I do. I recently tried to go through my memory box, and I always think, oh, I'm gonna go have this massive declutter.

[Christine]

Purge it. Yeah.

[M]

And then I always end up only getting rid of, like, two things.

[Christine]

And then I'm like, when it's in a memory box, I'M kind of like, it's tough to get it out of there. I think for me, Allison is someone

[M]

who does not hold on to anything. And so the fact that I have, like, a massive.

[Christine]

It's really beautiful how. How she's able to be, like, minimalist in it. Shocked. It couldn't be me.

[M]

It makes me kind of worry about her. I'm like, there's nothing you want to hold on to. I'm like, what about when I go, are you going to. You're not going to hold on to.

[Christine]

Think about. It's the Buddhist way, right? It's like, oh, everything is fleeting. Don't cling. You know, it's like the memories here. I'm a hoarder. I'm saying this as a hoarder. I'm just. I'm talking out of my ass, okay? Do as I say, not as I do.

[M]

Well, no, I'm more on your side, because I'm like, I just want to hold on to. If something happened to her, like, not. Nothing would go. Nothing would go. And I feel like she just, like, shove all my stuff out. She'd go, finally, I can get rid of all those Pokemon cards. You know?

[Christine]

She'd be like, what are these?

[M]

Totally. Yeah, totally. I did tell her. I was like, we have to have a serious conversation about my Pokemon cards. You cannot get rid of the.

[Christine]

Like, you have to appraise or something contractually legal. You put it in a will or something.

[M]

I gave her a list of people that cannot. She cannot give it to. I was like, if you don't want them, that's fine, but do not donate them to these people, because they're going to use them for evil, you know?

[Christine]

Oh, right. We don't want them. That.

[M]

What is your. I don't know if this is helpful or not. Maybe I'm talking you into the. Into the wrong things, but in your finding your, you know, collections of things, has there been anything that you are really happy you found? Like, instead of, like, trash, is there something you found? You're like, oh, I'm so happy that I've kept that. I really like that thing.

[Christine]

Oh, so many things. I found so many things. I actually. I know it doesn't look it, but pretty much everything on that bench is stuff that I'm, like, keeping, but I need to now put back. Like, I put everything out of there that was donation or trash and already got it out. So that's just, like, what's left. So there. There are some. Like, that's all that's Left.

[M]

Sorry.

[Christine]

That's just process.

[M]

Oh, you should be really proud of yourself.

[Christine]

Thank you. I am. I am proud. But I. But sometimes I'm like. It took six years to, like, get to a point where I'm finally, like, seeing some Claire Clarity. Like, we. I clean. I had some. I don't know if see Adderall or what, but the other day, I just had this, like, I went upstairs after, like, Leona went to bed, and I walked into my room, and I looked at our closet, and I cannot look at our closet. Gives me such anxiety. At first I thought, like, must be a ghost. And then I'm like, oh, no, it's just like, this, like, black hole. I mean, I don't know if you've seen it. It's, like, in my bathroom, and it's just, like, you can't even get in there. And then I realized I had this, like, moment where I realized I turned the light on. I'm like, are there towel. Extra towels in here? I'm looking around, like, some of the stuff we just pushed in here when we moved in and have just not touched. Like, yeah, there's a big tub of Blazes scrubs. And it was Covid. So, like, they just got put right there. They are still there. And I'm like, oh, my God. This stuff is, like, right where we go every day, you know? And so I had this moment, and I realized then that all of Blazes T shirts that he wears every day are in the back of that closet. And I'm like, hey, babe, do you climb in here and go back there in this, like, little cave every day? And he's like, well, yeah, that's where my. And I'm like, what's the matter with you? Like, my weird fake pink fur stole. You have to, like, push past it every day. And I was like, if I were you, I would hate me. I would, like, divorce me immediately. This is, like, untenable. And he's like, oh, it's fine. Anyway, within an hour, he came upstairs, and I was like, like, go look in the closet. Totally redone or what happened? I just, like, completely. I cleared it out. I had trash bags. I had donation. I had, like, stuff for Leona. I had things. Suitcases we forgot we had. I had everything in a place, and I had his shirts right there because I was. For you.

[M]

That's nice.

[Christine]

Anyway, then I stayed up till 2 and played Yahtzee on my phone. But, like, balance. Thank you.

[M]

It was deserved.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[M]

No, I'm very proud of you. That's it's nice to acknowledge that even though he didn't even need it. But that's the beauty of being married to a blaze. It's like he just doesn't give a.

[Christine]

Like, and he was like, wow, that was. That's great. I, like, he's now very happy, and I'm like, he would have just not minded. But I'm like, no, I want to. I want to be better than just, like, you know, oh, I don't mind it, you know, and it's like, what I mean, to have to push past my pink stole. I couldn't take it. I couldn't take it anymore.

[M]

That's funny, because I'm sure I've got something similar to a faux pink stolen.

[Christine]

It's probably a faux green stole.

[M]

And I probably just tell Allison, push past that. Get your own clothes.

[Christine]

Actually, don't touch that, please. Actually, can you, like, really carefully edge around it so as not to get your finger grease on it?

[M]

I. I just, like, please. I mean, remember, lest we forget, in Canada, when I got that, I went to that store just for drag queens, and I got that big Lisa Frank pink and yellow leopard jacket.

[Christine]

You had the O, and then you had the audacity. Compliment not derogatory. To meet Eva and me at the sky top rooftop bar, wearing it.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Walked in and we. And every head turned.

[M]

That's exactly right. That's what I wanted. It was a bit of a formal restaurant.

[Christine]

I didn't know that when I walked in our friend.

[M]

I didn't know what I walked in, that it was going to be such a showstopper for everybody, but whatever. No, but I have jackets like that. And it doesn't even occur to me that. That Allison should ever. That I should move it for Allison. I. Oh, God, Sorry.

[Christine]

You know, I have the. Speaking of audacity, I was like, why are places scrubs still here? And then I'm, like, climbing over, like, 16 pairs of shoes I had in college that I literally have not worn a single time since. You know? And it's like, I'm like, why are his scrubs still here? Like, what's wrong with me?

[M]

I'm gonna give you some grace, because I also. I think I can't imagine being in a house where you can shove things into a closet and ignore it. Like, I mean, that's just. It's very out of sight, out of mind.

[Christine]

That's part of the problem. Yeah.

[M]

As. I mean, I have complained about how I wish I had lived in a bigger space many times, but one of the added perks of it is that, like, there is no room for clutter. Like, totally. There's no tucking something away in a corner. So I really had to, like, force myself to face that.

[Christine]

Why not keep it? You might need it. It's an almost empty helium tank that probably won't work by next year. Like, oh, oh, But I'll carry it upstairs to the office. And then, like, three years later, I'm like, fuck, I forgot I had this up here. Like, what do I do with it? You know? It's like, I would do the exact

[M]

same thing if I had the space. There's not a chance in hell I would have donated half the stuff I have.

[Christine]

Exactly. Yeah. That's a really. Okay. That also comforts me, too, because there's a running joke in my family, which is I just yell, I need a bigger house. Because, like, we can't find rooms for some room for something. And I was like, I need a bigger house. And then I realized my mom used to say that, and, like, she also has very similar tendencies of just, like, not being able to let go of stuff. And I heard myself going, I need a bigger house. And I went, all right.

[M]

That's funny.

[Christine]

The mom signs are shining through.

[M]

I yell it every day. And I mean it. I'm like, I. I. I actively wish something was cluttered. I hate how. I hate how. I don't know, it feels like a weird side. Like, pat on the back. Like, my house is so clean, but I can't stand it. I. Like, I need to live in a place where I feel like I can leave around without the whole place feeling so disgusting.

[Christine]

Is that something that you're able to, like, do, or are you just gonna leave it like this, then?

[M]

No. Well, I mean, like. Like an addition on the house or something.

[Christine]

I just mean, like, is that something you can work on in the. At the house, or is that, like, you're just gonna, like, kind of say, well, that's. That's my life now?

[M]

No, for now. It's a. That's my life now. I mean, the dream is that we. I could, like, add on and have, like, essentially a troll hole where I can be dirty and disgusting. But we just don't have that right now.

[Christine]

Allison's not. And you just don't want it in the main living area.

[M]

Yeah. So there's. There's really the. The bedroom and then this room. And so if the living room is a mess, then sitting in our kitchen, I can see the mess. Like, it's just. Yeah, it's just always there. There's no word.

[Christine]

You have it before. Was it, like, hidden away, troll hole? Right. Of course.

[M]

Because Allison and I shook on the fact that, like, as long as that door was closed, she did not care.

[Christine]

What?

[M]

Like, totally. And I really miss that.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

So anyway, I. In a. In a weird way, and I'm sure this is not helpful to your therapist, but I envy you that you can.

[Christine]

Super helpful. Because it's like, oh, it's a different perspective. Right. Like, I hadn't thought of it that way. And it's like, oh, yeah. That does encourage the habit of keeping stuff I do not need or helping other people store stuff, which, like, I don't necessarily have a lot of that, but, like, just anything. It's like, oh, sure, I have plenty of space. Yeah. So, no, it's a good perspective.

[M]

That being said, though, sorry. I think there's a lag. So I feel like I keep sounding like I'm stepping over you, but to that, I feel like a little. A little cheers Clinky to you for, like, finally only having that stuff in your room, but that's, like, important stuff to you. That's huge.

[Christine]

Thank you. It's really distracting because it's like, journals and stickers. So I just keep being like, oh, I'll work on this pile. And then I'm, like, looking through sticker books for, like, an hour. So the ADHD part, I've gotten this far, and I'm, like, letting myself kind of just have a moment, you know?

[M]

That's the most annoying part when you are decluttering is once you get to, like, the nitty gritty stuff, it doesn't look like anything accomplished.

[Christine]

Feel like it's moving as much. Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally true. Well, thank you. Because I know you always appreciate that kind of aspect of having having a home. It's. It's a loaded one.

[M]

I'm very jealous of you and all your space, but I can also see that being such a.

[Christine]

It's also space. So even when you're here, sometimes I think you're a little more hesitant about my space.

[M]

Only the parts where I've had ghost experiences.

[Christine]

Yeah. Which is most of the space, I would say. Oh, I told you. Right. I already told the story about Leona in her room. And is there any update? I don't think so. No. The last thing that was the last thing that happened. And then was that last week. Yeah. Nothing really. Oh, she's really scared of wolves.

[M]

You did say that.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. And then I tried to do something last night. I've really up, dude. Like, I don't. I mean, I. I don't. I really don't think, like, this is, like, a big, big deal, because I. I'm. I feel like I'm equipped to handle this with her. And I think maybe if this had happened to me, maybe it'd be more of a problem because I didn't necessarily have the tools to. Or the people around me didn't have the tools to handle it. But last night, I really effed up. I read her this book that I bought that I thought was, like, perfect, because it's about this little kid who's like, there's a bear out there, and I know it. And, like, it's kind of funny because it's like, you can believe me. And it's like all this, like, fake stuff, and it turns out it's, like, all pretend or whatever, but it turns out at the end, there is a bear. It's just a friendly bear. And they are in the bear's house, it turns out. And so then Leona literally said to me, don't you ever make me look at that again. And I said,

[M]

okay. I would be frozen in my. I'd be like, what happened? What? Just. What did I just do?

[Christine]

I was like. She literally. I tried to put it in the shelf. She said, don't put it in my shelf. And I said, okay.

[M]

She's like, burn it.

[Christine]

Literally burn it. So I tried to tuck it in to, like, the armchair, to, like, stand up. And she goes like, don't leave it in my chair. And I said, okay, I'm gonna go put it outside in the hallway. And she's like, but there could be wolves out there. And I was like, I've really effed up this time. Like, I've really effed up.

[M]

For a second, I thought you were gonna say, I really effed up because I taught her about werewolves, where it's like, anyone, any person could be a wolf.

[Christine]

She's had books on werewolves since she was six months old because, like, people, you know, season. And that's why we drink babies. So she got all sorts of spooky books, but somehow that's not what scares her. Ghosts. That's not really what scares her. It's wolves.

[M]

Well, so is this book that you gave her that you thought was an excellent. Which I. I could see. I could see what you were thinking,

[Christine]

by the way, during this exchange, because she is, like, pissed off. Blaze, text me. I thought it was cute. And the great. Like, a great idea. And I was like, well, thanks.

[M]

Was her reason for being so upset that, like, the moral of she took. The moral being, like, can confirm when a kid senses that there's an animal in the woods or an animal nearby or a monster nearby, that they're right, and therefore I'm right. When I think all these wolves are

[Christine]

around, I think so. And I think also, like, in the book, it's, like, really beautifully. By the way, if you have a kid who would like this, it is gorgeous. Oh, I was not gonna say I'll mail it to you, but I will, because, by the way, I said, oh, how about we mail it to your cousin Elliot? Because he's, like, three. But I'm like, he. I think he could handle it. And she goes, no, you can't do that to him. And I was like, wow, okay. We're feeling a lot of feelings about this book. It's so cute, and it's, like, beautifully done. But the art, it has this kid, like, like, screaming, and I think she just got very, like, activated right away. And then, like, kind of stopped listening about, like, the. The jokey parts, like, when it was like, oh, a sign of. Like, a sign of a bear. Is it super itchy feet? And I'm like, isn't that silly? And she was just like, already, like, yeah, I don't have time. Where is this bear? And then, of course, the eyeballs appear in the darkness. And I'm like, okay, maybe I should have looked at the page. I mean, honestly, it's not scary. Okay? She just has a very, very specific niche fear right now that I think I accidentally tried too hard to address. You know?

[M]

I understand. And I don't even think you meant. I. I thought it would have. It's funny how a kid's brain, an adult's brain, just totally don't click sometimes, because I would have done the shoppers.

[Christine]

And I was like, yeah, this is why I'm buying it.

[M]

Yeah. I'd be like. You were slowly like, oh, it's just. They can be silly. Yeah.

[Christine]

And it's a bear, not a wool. Like, I felt like, oh, we can kind of do like.

[M]

I would have actually thought, because she's not scared of bears. This wouldn't even do anything.

[Christine]

Hey, guess what? Now she's scared of wolves and bears.

[M]

She's becoming fudgeing Dorothy or whatever. Like, lions and tigers, all this.

[Christine]

I just. I'm like, well, okay, I flubbed that. But anyway, I've been told to get rid of the book, but never give it to a child. Because it's only for adults.

[M]

Okay, I'll take it.

[Christine]

Yeah, I mean, it's adorable. I love it. So, you know, I'm gonna keep it and don't tell Leona, but I'll keep. She's gonna find it somewhere random, like, by accident. And if I can have a meltdown, she'll like.

[M]

If you leave it in the attic one day, she'll, like. It'll all come back to her.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. We had to put it in, like, her, like, creepy antique trunk that I bought her off in estate sale. Anyway, that is why I drink. I'm so sorry. I'm just drinking my water today. What are you drinking?

[M]

I'm drinking unflavored, though requested, highly flavored iced tea. I had. I sent out for it. I said, give me extra pumps of lavender. They said, how about zero?

[Christine]

I had the audacity to say, maybe next time you should put extra syrup. And M holds the cup up and it says, like, requested extra pump of syrup. And I'm like, well, consider me fools then. Extremely a fool.

[M]

Extra pump. And I'm like, yeah, it's. I. It's almost like you saw the plus sign and chose a negative sign and

[Christine]

said, how about another stupid question? Did you, like, mix it up? Could it be, like, in the bottom?

[M]

That's what I thought too, but I don't usually. You would see, like, purple on the bottom, and I don't see any purple.

[Christine]

Unfortunate.

[M]

I don't know. Not meant to be today, I guess. That's okay.

[Christine]

We both have boring drinks, but yeah, as M likes to say, have some water. Drink up, you. M doesn't say, have some water. That's my. That's my take on it.

[M]

That's the nicer way. No, I say, you thirsty, little effing rats? Have you drink some water.

[Christine]

You get real nasty with it.

[M]

Yeah, thirsty little rats. TLR

[Christine]

it's Chime at barging in to save your day because we've kind of had to learn about money the hard way. The hard knock way. If we had chime banking when we were younger, we probably would have been on a much better. Much better footing.

[M]

Much better. I was definitely one of those people where I did not know how money worked. Still don't entirely. But it was a real nightmare before chime. It's not just another banking app. They unlock smarter banking for everyday people. With products like my pay giving you access to up to $500 of your paycheck anytime and getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit and some old Banks still don't do this again the way I would have craved this.

[Christine]

Forget overdraft fees, minimum balance fees and monthly fees. Like you can bank fee free and they have overdraft coverage you can count on.

[M]

And you can earn up to 3.5% APY on savings which is eight times higher than a traditional bank. And chime is rated five stars by USA Today for customer service. So there's real humans 24 7, which is another thing that most banks don't have anymore.

[Christine]

Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today.

[M]

Head to chime.comdrink. that's chime.comdrink. it only takes a few minutes to sign up and that's why we drink. Listeners can earn up to an extra $350. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services A secured Chime Visa credit card and MyPay line of credit provided by the Bancor Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. MyPay eligibility requirements apply and credit limit ranges $20 to $500. Opt may have fees or charges. See chime.com fees info. Advertised annual percentage yield with Chime plus status only. Otherwise 1.00% APY applies.

[Christine]

No min balance required.

[M]

Chime card on time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms.

[Christine]

Oh, sorry. Okay. I Fashion show at lunch. Fashion show at lunch for maybe my partner only is what I wore my Honey Love bra. It's like this crossover. I mean you've heard me talk about this. It's just like super nice and I wore it and I was just kind of like casually, you know, move around and yeah, you know, someone noticed, you

[M]

know, I oh and it.

[Christine]

And it was Blaze and that's as far as I'm gonna go with that story.

[M]

With honeylove. Anytime I've seen even just an ad of people wearing their products, everyone just looks confident, very elegant, very lovely. Honey Love is an independent female founded brand and all Honey Love products are intelligently designed by women who actually wear them, including the founder, Betsy, who is highly involved in the development of each product.

[Christine]

Huge green flag. I don't have this one yet. I've got to get my hands on this. I gotta get my boobs on this. This Honey Loves cloud embrace bra. Because this is more like a T shirt bra, you know, when I'm feeling more like girl next door or what have you. So anyway, we just, we just Are so happy to keep working with honeylove. And you know, Blaze likes it, too. So treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our gray exclusive link to save 20% off Honey [e-mail] Drink.

[M]

That's HoneyLove.com Drink. And after you check out, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Experience the new standard and comfort and support with Honey Love. Okay, well, I have a story for you.

[Christine]

Tldr Thirsty little drinking rats.

[M]

Thirsty little drinking rats. H. I have a story. Although this is a shorter story because I harped and harped for.

[Christine]

Allegedly. We'll see when the timer runs out.

[M]

I the last three episodes were all about Zach Bacon's. I was like, let's just do a palate cleanser. Let's just get.

[Christine]

Let's just cut him out of the picture.

[M]

And a while ago, when I did the. The Girl with the Green Ribbon Around Her Neck, I got a lot of people asking me to cover more scary stories from our childhood, so. And I would like your memory of this, if you have one, because I'm curious what your experience with the story is, but this is the monkey's paw.

[Christine]

Okay. That's one that I feel like every now and then I hear about, and then I'm like, I vaguely sort of like if I look directly at it, I don't know what it is, but I feel like peripherally I sort of do. But I think someone like Blaze's family talks about it, but I don't really know it.

[M]

I feel like it became like it's almost like slaying. Because the moral of the story, of course, is be careful what you wish for. And I feel like people have now used the phrase monkey's paw and set an idiom right? Like, oh, well, don't let it be. Don't. Don't let it be a monkey's paw. Or like, oh, something you wish.

[Christine]

I don't remember. I think this is one that kind of escaped me.

[M]

Okay, so I remember being in class in English class and having to read this. But I can tell you with full confidence, I don't think I read a single book I was ever expected to in English class.

[Christine]

I was like, even in the class, you were just like.

[M]

Like, I was actively caught many times looking up, like, the Cliff Notes online as we were in class, like, wait, wait.

[Christine]

Oh, what age were you reading this?

[M]

I think it was, like, ninth grade.

[Christine]

Oh. I was picturing, like, elementary school. And I'm like, how were you Googling Cliff's notes?

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

I thought this was like the Girl with the Ribbon where it was like a kid's story.

[M]

Sure. And I. For all I know, I have come up with a timeline where I was actually much younger.

[Christine]

So you.

[M]

So here's the thing, just to make matters worse. So I had a Mr. Feeny for my English classes were from sixth grade until I graduated. I had the same teacher.

[Christine]

So I don't really can't escape that. Yeah. Yeah.

[M]

I don't really know what age I

[Christine]

was to exist in that context.

[M]

Yeah. She was just from 11 to, like, going to college. She was my English teacher and most of it was in the exact same classroom, so.

[Christine]

Wow.

[M]

I'm guessing I was like 14.

[Christine]

And once you establish that, you cement that habit, you know, in that room, in that environment, you're kind of sunk.

[M]

I think that's why she caught me so many times looking up the Cliff Notes by the time I was graduating, because she'd seen me for the last seven years, like, not giving a start

[Christine]

to see the pattern. Yeah.

[M]

Anyway, I think she was probably the most surprised when we wrote not just one, but two fucking books anyway, so sorry to her. And also I. I don't really remember. I don't remember reading it. I remember, like, bits of it, but I. But kind of as bullet points, not as the story itself.

[Christine]

Maybe you were like, remember it from the discussion, like the class discussion or something.

[M]

Yeah. And there were a few times where I would hear the discussion after we've alle read the book, and I'd go, oh, that sounds like a good book.

[Christine]

Every time. Every time that would happen. And I would go, well, now I want to read it. And then they'd go, now here's the next one. And I go, that looks boring as hell. And then like, elicit to the thing go, that's what this was about. Like, there is a sexy scene. What the.

[M]

Exactly. Yeah. I remember her being, like, so obsessed with Wuthering Heights and the fact that there's a movie out right now. I just know she took the class to like. Like a field trip to see it or something.

[Christine]

That was the only book I read in high school. And I was like, I love this book. And then sometimes I'm like, wait, I probably would have loved a lot of the books because, like, that's the only one I read. And I liked it. So I'm like, I probably would have enjoyed them, but no one will ever know.

[M]

I wonder if. If English teachers allow Audiobooks as an option now. Because I would have really thrived if I could have listened to the book versus reading.

[Christine]

It would have completely changed the game.

[M]

If I am to affect an English teacher listening to this, please let your children just listen to the book instead of read it.

[Christine]

That's. And that's really point. Because I love to read. And it's not like I hate reading. It's like at. In high school, I did not have. Sorry to say the. I know. I think a lot of kids don't. Teenagers. Like, the contacts, the time, the space, the privacy. Like, there was no way for me to read a book. Like, have the time or read the book.

[M]

Like, I also have to fucking care. I just.

[Christine]

I had. I, like, didn't really care either. But I just knew, like, there was no space for me to care. Like, my stepdad would literally turn the power off at night so that we couldn't read, like, in high school. Like, so I didn't even. And I'm not making an excuse. It's like, I could have read the book. Right?

[M]

No, but that's a. That's a good point. That, like, you don't know what's going on. You don't know what's going on. Someone's house.

[Christine]

And I wish I could have read more. And then I got like a 5 on the AP English exam and my teacher accused me of cheating, and I was like, you are A. Except I just cried instead.

[M]

I only took one AP class and got a one and I. It was deserved. I was very bad at all school.

[Christine]

Hey, in Germany, one is an A.

[M]

So I wish you were there. I wish you were there. When I told my mom that I got a one and she went, are you kidding?

[Christine]

I should tell my German mom. And she'll be so proud of you. We should have swapped moms for the day.

[M]

We should have. No, I. And I think I was obsessed with anything visual. In hindsight, like, I've said this a million times, even as an adult, like, dry text, I just couldn't lock the in. And had I known there was an audiobook version and in 2026, when you could two speed it, like, press it, make it go faster. If I knew that instead of reading a book, it would take me an hour, it would take me like 20 minutes. If I was just listening to it, I would have been so much more likely to actually follow through. So anyway, maybe we're making excuses. I don't really care.

[Christine]

I mean, it might be an excuse, but it's also just an explanation. You know, like, it's not necessarily an excuse. I don't have. Like, I should have read the books. Of course. Right? That's my. I'm a student. I'm supposed to read the books. I didn't. Most of them.

[M]

I. I just. I. I actively. I have no excuse.

[Christine]

Grapes of Wrath. Like, I can barely hang on at to, like, a semblance of sanity. And you want me to read Grapes of Wrath? Please.

[M]

I. I don't have an excuse the way you do. I just actively didn't read. I saw that my homework for the night was to read these three chapters, and I went, well, I'm not gonna do that. And then I.

[Christine]

Like, it's also important to know what you want and what you don't want. And I think that's something to be celebrated.

[M]

Well, for the first time ever, I read A Monkey's Paw last night. So.

[Christine]

Are you changed?

[M]

No.

[Christine]

Okay. Good to know you weren't missing out.

[M]

Yeah, I feel like I. For. I think I was. I. I never read the books, but then during discussion, I would kind of pick up on enough cues where, like, I kind of got the gist of it, at least. And I know that's not what any teacher wants to hear, but I picked up enough where I could bullshit my way through.

[Christine]

We're Geminis. That's what we do best.

[M]

And from what I gathered in those discussions, I. I. Same thing I really thought this was because in my memory, like, I know one thing happens, and I thought, oh, that's just the beginning, and it's gonna get scarier. And this one, I was like, oh, I think that was, like, actually the scary part. And I didn. At the time, like, I think I. You tell me. I think.

[Christine]

I think I have no idea what this is.

[M]

Excellent, excellent, excellent. Okay, so here's the monkey's paw.

[Christine]

Yeah, bring it on. This is your book report.

[M]

This is my version. This is the Cliff Notes I would have paid attention to when I was 14.

[Christine]

Oh, God. Sorry. There's, like, a coffee stain on my shirt. Okay.

[M]

Beautiful.

[Christine]

Thanks.

[M]

Okay, so it's a rainy London night. There is a family of three in the house. There, there. This is The White family. Mr. White. Mrs. White. And their son Herbert. Herbert is a grown man. By the way, when I first was reading this, I was like, Herbert's 10.

[Christine]

No, Herbert's a little infant named Herbert.

[M]

Herbert is an adult.

[Christine]

Okay.

[M]

Mr. White and his son Herbert are playing chess. Mr. White. I. I added this in because I did, actually, in honor of my high school days, I did Go look at Cliff Notes just to see if there were any things I should be adding in here. Oh, that's interesting, because otherwise I would have just deleted this. This part. I've been like, why the do we care?

[Christine]

But apparently, like, on your Cliffs Notes, it's, like, been a member since 2007.

[M]

I had a login with my old high school, 1998. No, but I. I was like, you know, this was taught to, like, children in English. In English class to, like, stimulate their interest in reading. So there must be something important here. And so there's, like, foreshadowing and symbolism and all that. So I was trying to. So I'm adding. I'm keeping the things in that an English teacher would give a.

[Christine]

About the themes and all that. Good, Good, good.

[M]

So Mr. White is a. We find out while he's playing chess with his son, he's a risky chess player. He's making impulsive choices here. That's the foreshadowing red flag.

[Christine]

And his wife foreshadowing red flags. Like, that would also help the youth, I think, understand, actually, if you're an

[M]

English teacher, if you just want me and Christine to come to your school and just, like, actually just talk about the book, it will stick with them

[Christine]

longer, I think so.

[M]

Because you're totally right. If someone said red flag, I would have been like, oh, I'm gonna clock that for later.

[Christine]

Like, yeah, I feel like that's, like, a fun new angle.

[M]

Should we just be teachers now?

[Christine]

I guess so. I don't know. I don't think I'm cut out for it. I'm too sensitive. I'm far too sensitive.

[M]

I think I'm not sensitive enough.

[Christine]

And then I'm also. And then also, like. Like, I don't have to. I. That's way too much work for me. I can barely clean my house, let alone teach people.

[M]

I could hear you dragging a cigarette when you said.

[Christine]

I mean, really, I would. I would. I would never survive. Props to the teachers. I just. You really do some work. That's hard, hard work.

[M]

Well, if you're a teacher and you don't really feel like teaching your kids about the monkey's paw, just let them play this as the audiobook that I was talking about.

[Christine]

And then I think that this sounds pretty similar to what it probably is.

[M]

Is. Okay, perfect. So everyone.

[Christine]

It's the M's. Notes

[M]

could have used that. Okay, so they're playing chess. Mr. White, risky chess player. His wife, the Mrs. White, she's just chilling next to them. And I guess Mr. White starts complaining that they live really far out of town, and maybe that's why their special guest of the night hasn't gotten there yet. And you're like, oh, who's this creepy little guest that's coming? It is not a monkey. I thought it was a monkey when I was.

[Christine]

I thought donkey for some reason. Then I went, why did I think donkey? And I'm like, maybe because it's one letter off.

[M]

Like, I hear monkey's paw. And then I hear an interesting guest is coming. And I'm like, it's obviously the monkey. And he's.

[Christine]

I'm like, it's either a genie in a bottle. Well, I don't know. You go on.

[M]

Well, very close. So, okay. So there.

[Christine]

Because you said, careful what you wish for. I was like, where did I come up with that?

[M]

Something was. Yeah. So they're. They're complaining. Oh, you know, we're so far out of town, and maybe our guest isn't even going to make it. Well, the guest does arrive, and he knocks on the door, and it is, I guess, Mr. White's friend from back in the day, and he's a military man named Sergeant Major Morris. I'm just going to call him Morris from now on. And I guess Morris has spent, like, 20 years overseas working in India, which this. This story, by the way, comes out in 1902. So maybe it's more normal back then to not see your friends for, like, 20 years. Yeah, but that one blew me away. And how do you keep in touch? How do. There's no Facebook. How do you keep in touch? 20 years?

[Christine]

No wonder they're so worried. And also, like, how do they know he's coming tonight? Like, if he's just kind of, like, meandering his way 20 years across.

[M]

Okay, maybe this is why families just lived in the same house for their entire life. Because what if someone from your past needs to know where you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. It could not be me. So anyway, Mr. Morris, I know he's Sergeant Major. I'm sorry, Sergeant Major Morris. He. He's finally in town. I don't know how they arranged this. That's not my business. He shows up and he's sharing stories with him about his travels, and Mr. White goes, oh, yeah? Well, Morris, what was that story you were just telling me about a little bit ago, I'm assuming in a letter?

[Christine]

20. Oh, I was like, what, 20 years ago? Let's not be ridiculous. Okay, I guess what you're saying is a letter.

[M]

Okay, what was that story you were just telling me about Morris, the one about, like, the monkey's paw. And then Morris gets really quiet and he's like, we don't need to talk about that one. I know. This is immediately.

[Christine]

I'm like, speak up.

[M]

And Mrs. White did, by the way.

[Christine]

She was like, now, now, now, now, now. I hang out by the chess table.

[M]

You're a guest in my house. Tell me about this monkey spot. And he goes like, no, I think his exact words, I think, because I did not that I just was kind of gibbering.

[Christine]

Cliff's notes didn't have direct quotes.

[M]

He says something like, that's hardly worth mentioning. Like, let's not even get into it.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[M]

But he does mention which, like, stupidest thing in the world, Unless he wanted us to keep asking questions. He goes, it's hardly worth mentioning. It had, like, something to do with, like, it was. It was about magic.

[Christine]

Oh, he's baiting them for sure.

[M]

And the family, who I'm assuming lives in the middle of nowhere in the Same House for 20 years. And only chess. Their only fund is chess and writing letters.

[Christine]

And by the way, he's a risky chess player. That's the most depressing sentence I've ever heard. That this man and his son are risky chess player. Like, that's what you've got going for you. You're not even, like, leaving your. You're playing with only one person. I can't do it.

[M]

So of course they lean in and they're like, well, you just said magic, so pipe up.

[Christine]

Oh, my gosh.

[M]

So the guy, he goes, all right. And so he digs through his pocket. He literally has this thing on his. On his person. But he was like, oh, this whole thing.

[Christine]

I guess I'll bring it up stuff.

[M]

I'm not going to talk about it, but it just happens to be exactly in my favorite pocket. So he digs through his pockets, he shovels around, he pulls this thing out, and it's a dried up, literal paw of a monkey.

[Christine]

Cool. I was hoping, like, that was metaphorical, not in 1902.

[M]

Got was very much like, I remember when I was a kid, I got a rabbit's foot. And I was like, I found out what I picked.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

I found out a year later it was a literal foot of a rabbit. And I was like, like, well, this thing I've been snuggling up with has to go in the trash.

[Christine]

Hey, love. Of course. What did you think it was, my friend?

[M]

I thought it was something metaphorical because I was like, why on earth would

[Christine]

I be holding a random dead animal? And then they, like, paint it pink, and you're like, oh, that's cute. And it's like, wait, what the.

[M]

It was green. I was like, this is obviously like a stuffed animal. Foot of a stuffed animal.

[Christine]

And then you look at the little claws and you're like, holy, it has toe pads.

[M]

When I realized it was hard inside because of bones, I was hold. I was just carrying around an ankle, you know? And I was like, well, this has to go in the trash.

[Christine]

That's so up.

[M]

I literally.

[Christine]

I've been doing rabbits have ankles because

[M]

it was so soft. I, like, would rub it on my face all the time.

[Christine]

You need to have. You need to read the cautionary instructions that probably don't come with a rabbit's foot.

[M]

No, but I just heard, like, the

[Christine]

equivalent of, like, lab rats that you just, like, buy to feed your.

[M]

Yes.

[Christine]

Feed your pet snake. You know?

[M]

I know.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. I can't deal with this right now. This is. I just can't deal with this right now.

[M]

Side note, speaking of rats, I will say the biggest surprise last night during the haniversary that Allison threw me was we were watching outside. We have a projector, so we were watching outside.

[Christine]

We got derailed by the yard. Yeah, you had your Hannah Montana night. I'm sorry.

[M]

And the biggest surprise of the entire thing was a rat ran through our yard. And that really ruined the vibe. So if you know what to do about rats, please tell me.

[Christine]

That feels like a Hannah Montana episode, though.

[M]

It does.

[Christine]

Like, a rat runs through and, like, believes her or something, or she's trying to hide the rat from somebody.

[M]

I pray there's only one, but you never know with these things. And after the roaches, we're both pretty traumatized, so if you could just tell us what the fuck to do, that'd be incredible. Thanks so much.

[Christine]

You're not talking to me, right?

[M]

No, no. Just anyone who's a rat expert.

[Christine]

I was like, certainly you couldn't be asking me for help on this one. Okay.

[M]

And I'm not one of those people who fucking likes rats. If you're a rat person, congratulations. Do not tell me we should trap it and be friends with it. That. Absolutely not.

[Christine]

Yeah, you did just say you want to hear from rat people. And I feel like you should be more specific. Or rat experts. You said rat experts.

[M]

People who want rats as far fucking away from them as possible. Who have dealt with this, please let me know.

[Christine]

You know, I just. Just thinking about Justin Wiley. And I feel like we. I feel like we owe him a call or two.

[M]

What an obscure reference to people who did not go on our tour.

[Christine]

When I tell you two days ago, I was driving down the highway, and my brain went. Went, justin Whaley. And I went, is he here? Did he die? Like, I have no clue, but. Because I was driving, but my brain just went, justin Whaley. And then I think it was because I saw, like, this van that had a big snake, and it said pest removal. And I was like, what a wackadoo van. Like, they've, like, clearly hand did this. And I was like, looks like Justin Whale. You know, it looks like Justin. Wait, like, that literally went. Wouldn't leave my head. So anyway, you say rat problem. I say Justin, get him on the horn.

[M]

Well, Justin Whaley, I think he cared about snakes or something, though, right? Wasn't he a snake man?

[Christine]

Yeah, it was more reptiles. That's true. That's true. But I'm sure he could, like, point you in the right direction.

[M]

That's right. That's rat.

[Christine]

That's right. I'm sure he could point you in the rat direction.

[M]

Like, are you Southern or. Did you just say rat? Where are we with this? Okay. Oh. Oh. Rabbit's foot led to angel, monkey's paw

[Christine]

to rats, monkey paw to reptiles.

[M]

So. So he throws this little dried monkey's paw on the table, and basically he tells the family that, oh, I got this in India. There was a practitioner there who put a spell on it to show people that, you know, to not mess with fate. If you mess with fate, you'll regret it. And this monkey's paw will show you if you have any doubts about that. So basically, the spell that this practitioner put on the monkey's paw, it. It was up to, like, three people were allowed to have this experience or to test their belief in fate, where one person would own it. They get to make three wishes, and then a second person would get it. They could have three wishes. A third person would get it. They could have three wishes, and then, I guess three curses broken.

[Christine]

Oh, okay, okay, okay. And then it, like, is just like, a paw. Like a rabbit's foot.

[M]

Yeah. That part is not discussed. That part's obvious.

[Christine]

Maybe it just has, like, limited magic. You know, you can only use it a certain number of times.

[M]

Sure. Like, he, like, the spell has an

[Christine]

expiration date, like, wears off.

[M]

Yeah, he's like, on average, three people will get through this before I have to do it again.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, sure. That makes sense.

[M]

We know all about Indian magic. Yes.

[Christine]

We're onto it.

[M]

So Morris says, seems resentfully, that he is the second person to own this monkey's palm.

[Christine]

Gasp.

[M]

But the first person, the person he got this from, did, in fact, ask for three wishes. And those three wishes were granted, but there were so many tragic hijinks that came from his wishes that the third and final wish the original guy requested was to die.

[Christine]

Oh. Gasp.

[M]

He was just like, I just. I wish death because I. The so. And then somehow Morris ends up getting it. They really gloss over, like, did you know that, man? Or like, did. How did. Did you just pick it out of. Did you steal it from him on his dead body? Like, how do you have this thing? But anyway, he's the second person to have it. And I guess he has also regretfully requested for wishes to be granted. And he says, I don't even want to talk about it. It's too. Too much for me. This is. This is a bad situation. He's asked if he could go back and start all over and ask three different wishes. Which ones would he ask? And Morris goes, I have no idea. I don't know what I would ask. And then he just looks at the monkey's paw, and he throws it in the fire. And the whole family's, like, scrambling to get it out of the fire. They're like, what is wrong with you? What is wrong with you? Like, if you don't want it, we'll take it. Like, we'll be the third people.

[Christine]

They want the magic of it.

[M]

It.

[Christine]

Okay.

[M]

Yeah. And all Morris says is, better let it burn. Oh, spooky. So the family then say, like I said, if you don't want it, we'll take it. And Maura says, you can have it, but don't blame me for what happens next.

[Christine]

So it's. It's survived the fire.

[M]

It survived the fire. And I do wonder, like, how many wishes did Morris get?

[Christine]

That's what I was gonna ask. Did he, like, get. I guess maybe throwing in the fire was his, like, suffering from it? I don't know. Wouldn't you? Yeah, maybe you pass it on to a new owner, and then you're freed from it. I have no idea. You know, clearly, I was not reading this in high school, so.

[M]

Well, I also don't know, like, the rules. Like, if you haven't had all three wishes, is it still technically exactly like job? And is it, like, Yeah, I don't know. So, anyway, they. They're like, we'll take it. Fine. And he immediately thinks to make, like, some sort of silly wish. And so he's about to make. Make, like, his first wish. Mr. White about to make his first wish. And Morris grabs his hand and is like, if you're gonna make a wish with this thing, you better be smart about it. Like, don't, like, be careful.

[Christine]

Oh.

[M]

And then he leaves. He's like, I'm out of here.

[Christine]

I think, wow. So he just got rid of that thing?

[M]

Yeah. I, I the story went.

[Christine]

You know why I think he showed up? I think he showed up because he told him about this monkey paw in a letter. And this guy, Mr. White was like, I. I must. I want that. And he was like, well, perfect, because you can have it. I'm gonna come all the way to you.

[M]

You. And I think similarly, because I was like, if I had this horrible cursed object that I wanted to get rid of. I know a guy from 20 years ago, and I know where he lives. Why don't I just start writing him and catch up and pretend like I've got some crazy stories?

[Christine]

He seemed way into it, so, like, why not?

[M]

We're God, we. Something's wrong with us that we think that's very sick.

[Christine]

Very sick.

[M]

But I was like, I I I could see that happening. So he ends up leaving for the night, and it's just the family. And basically they ask, oh, well, you know, the kid and the wife are asking Mr. White, oh, if you were to ask for a wish, what would you wish? And he was like, I don't know. I kind of have everything I've ever wanted. I have no idea what I would ask. And his son goes, oh, well, we need to pay off the house. Like, then, you know, if we're thinking about, like, you know, being rich and famous and maybe we could be royalty or something crazy. Like, why don't we just. Just test it with just paying off

[Christine]

the mortgage, Like a simple, easy.

[M]

Yeah, that's a harmless one. Like, nothing bad can come from that. Let's just pay off the mortgage.

[Christine]

God, here we go.

[M]

And so the mortgage, by the way, was 200 pounds, which in 1902 was the equivalent of today's $10,000.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. And change. What's that big chunk of change? I'm opening my THC soda. I just. I need it. I need a moment. You know what I'm saying?

[M]

I I know exactly what you're saying. We want to hear the first sip.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[M]

Okay. Well, it went actually everywhere. And we didn't hear the sip, by the way, so you heard A snort, though. What flavor is that?

[Christine]

Oh, it's lovely. It's salted watermelon love.

[M]

Looks excellent. Again, no sip, but I'm gonna imagine it was incredible. There you go. Okay.

[Christine]

Delightful.

[M]

So Mr. White, he says, okay, yeah, let's cover the mortgage. And so he holds the monkey's paw and he says, I wish for £200. And then he, like, kind of freaks out and throws the monkey's paw. And everyone's like, what's your deal? And he was like, I felt it move in my fucking hand. Yuck. And the family ignores it. They're like, okay, whatever. Like, you. Even his mom. His not his mom, his wife was like, you made that up. Like, you're just. You're overthinking it. I'm sure nothing actually happened.

[Christine]

Imagine things.

[M]

Let's go to bed. Bed. So they go to bed. They wake up the next morning, everything's normal. The sun goes to work. That's when I found out the sun is not 10, but also in 1902. Maybe he's, like, a little newsy or something.

[Christine]

He's, like, building the Titanic or some.

[M]

Yeah. And so a few hours later, all of a sudden, Mrs. White sees a mysterious man in their yard. And this man is acting real dodgy, and he is, like, clearly wanting to go to the door, but he's hesitating. And he, like, walks up to the door, and then, like, retract, retreats.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh.

[M]

And then he walks up to the door again and he retreats, and he walks to the door and he retreats. And then after those three times, he, I guess, gets the courage, and he goes up to the door, and Ms. White goes, Are you okay? Like, you want to come inside? He comes into the house, and he unfortunately has to tell them something happened to Herbert at work, and there was a machine incident.

[Christine]

No.

[M]

And he did not survive. No. And of course they're distraught.

[Christine]

The.

[M]

The man now says, like, you know, I work for his company, and we're aware of the services he was providing. And so as compensation, we would like to give you £200.

[Christine]

What? What?

[M]

A door. Hello?

[Christine]

Hello? You're scaring the out of me.

[M]

Oh. Oh, my God. It was Hank.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[M]

Hell, you freaked the out of me in there. I didn't lock you in. We don't have a lock on the door. Oh. Oh, yeah, by the. We have. We have a door that doesn't. It, like, the latch doesn't move, so you have to, like, shove the door to, like, in, or you have to, like, shove it out.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[M]

Anyway, no, so I heard her yank the door open.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh.

[M]

Oh.

[Christine]

Yeah. That was startling. I mean, I'm already kind of creeped out by this story, I'll be honest.

[M]

So. So that's how they ended up getting their £200, very. Be careful what you wish for.

[Christine]

My Amelia Bedelia, dumbass, thought it was gonna be like, oh. And then all of a sudden he woke up and he had gained an enormous amount of weight, like 200. And I was like, and he couldn't work anymore. Or like, I literally thought like, oh, they weren't careful with their words. I'm such a.

[M]

But that. Okay, so I do remember this part from high school. And this part has definitely me up in a certain way because there are times where I'll wish for something or like in my head, like, or like whatever the closest to, like, prayer would be for me, like, speaking to the universe. I've always noticed that I get oddly specific, like, like in a way where like the sentence stretches out to like a 2 minute, 3 minute long sentence where I'm.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

Making it extra clear.

[Christine]

You can kind of be like, you know, with my best and highest good in mind. You know, I think you can usually like, cover it with a statement. I don't know about magic paws that move in your hand. That part way above my pay grade. But I think if you're just doing a simple prayer to the universe, you, like, they'll. They'll, like, your guides will be like,

[M]

I. I have actually. It's funny you say that because in my more recent years, I have started just saying the blanket statement of like, you know what I mean?

[Christine]

Exactly.

[M]

Like, you get the intention here. It's.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The words don't have to be perfect.

[M]

But there, There was a time where I was like, oh, you know, and, you know, I hope that this happens, but also not in a way where anyone gets hurt and also not in a way where this happens.

[Christine]

How about anxiety? And then you, like, raised in the Catholic Church, you're like, and this person. Then someone dies and you're like, I didn't pray enough for them and now they're dead. You know, I mean, it's just nuts.

[M]

Interesting. I'm sure there's ties. I'm sure people have compared the story to the overlaps in that. Interesting, because this certainly does feel like one of my first insights into having anxiety. So it's. Now, by the way, this. This story I didn't even tell you is in three parts.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. Oh, well, three wishes. I guess.

[M]

What's that?

[Christine]

Is it like three wishes?

[M]

Like, no, that's what I thought. Because I saw part three and I went, oh, that'll be the final wish. But it's just beginning, middle and end, basically.

[Christine]

Okay.

[M]

It's like story structure, which I could see why an English teacher would teach that, but.

[Christine]

Huh. Yeah, boring.

[M]

I know. That's what I thought. I was like, really? Okay. And also I was thinking, like, in the world of, like, cinema, where it's like, like in Avengers movies, it's like little fight, big fight, biggest fight at the end. Oh, yeah, A finale fight. I was like, oh, there'll be a finale wish.

[Christine]

Oh, the denouement.

[M]

The denouement, yes. Piece of resistance.

[Christine]

Oh, beautiful.

[M]

Creme de la creme. A lot of French climax.

[Christine]

Anyway,

[M]

so, okay, now we're in part three, by the way. But I was.

[Christine]

Wait, what?

[M]

Already? That's what I'm saying. I got to part three and I was like, really?

[Christine]

I was like, I'm ready to buckle in for like, like the longest episode ever. Okay.

[M]

Nope, we're at the end, so.

[Christine]

Oh my God. Okay, so, I mean, it's terrible, right? Okay, so the guy. The kid dies, right?

[M]

Yeah, the kid. Or maybe like the six year old man dies. I'm still.

[Christine]

Or the ten year old. We're really unclear. Yeah.

[M]

So it's been a week now since Herbert died, since his funeral. The couple's obviously grieving. Mrs. White is frantic, like, frantic frantic. Out of nowhere. This is after a week and a half of him being gone. She was completely silent. The house was silent. And then she left. Like, like totally freaks out. And she goes, I totally forgot about that monkey's paw. We still have two more wishes.

[Christine]

Oh, yes. And yeah, you're going to bring him back. Oh, no.

[M]

So she.

[Christine]

France, I would do it too. I would do it too.

[M]

Anyone would. Yeah, yeah. And so she, like, is panicked and, like, she's acting, like, super frenetic. That's the word you use.

[Christine]

Frenetic is a good one.

[M]

Frenetically demanding her husband, go get the paw from downstairs. Go get the paw. Make another wish for Herbert to come back, back. And Mr. White does not want to. He, like, has it in his gut. He was like, I just saw what? Wishing for a mortgage paycheck to our family. And the guy before us told us that it ruined his life. The guy before him wished to die. Like, I don't want to do this. And so now, after learning these, like, harsh consequences from a simple wish, right. He all. He. He doesn't want to do it. But he also admits to his wife, like, I'm the one that had to view his body after a machine incident. And I'm telling you that he was unrecognizable. And I don't. If we bring him back, what does that mean? Is he, like, does he look like that permanently? Is he a zombie? Is he. Is the. Are the injuries so bad that he is no longer himself or, you know.

[Christine]

Right.

[M]

And so he's, like, freaked out in that way, too. He's like. I don't even know what that could mean. Like, or if he comes back, do you die? Do I die? What happens?

[Christine]

Right, good point.

[M]

Ms. White is obviously just like, yeah, she's out of her mind at the fact that there's even an option that her kid can come back. So she's forcefully like, I don't give a. Make this wish. And she even said something like, you think I'd be scared of my, like, son if he looked different? Like, I'm. I'm. He's my son. Bring him back. And she was so intense about this, and he was so hesitant that Mr. White, even in the story is claiming that. That the room feels off, like the. The walls morphing a certain way. He's saying his wife doesn't even look like herself. Like, he's like, everything just looks totally warped from reality.

[Christine]

Now.

[M]

This is where I say, why wouldn't Ms. White just grab the paw herself and make the wish? Because it sounds like.

[Christine]

I think it's, like, the third person. I think it has to be, like, three people. You know what I mean?

[M]

Well, because my thought was it sounds like the. Their friend never finished his three wishes,

[Christine]

but maybe he did. And maybe we just don't know what. Maybe he's, like, passed this on to someone else or something. You know, you're right. I mean, I'm not right. I have no clue. I've never read this in my life. But, you know, that's my. I don't know.

[M]

Well, so Mr. White, he says, the room feels off. Everything is feeling really dark, the energy super heavy. And his wife is yelling at him, make the wish. Make the wish. And so he gives in, and he says, I wish my son was alive. And the monkey's paw once again twitches in his hand, and he throws it, freaked out, which is what I would do if my rabbit foot ever twitched. I go, oh, that's a.

[Christine]

That's a Goosebumps book for sure.

[M]

Mrs. White runs to the window and looks outside. All night long, she's like he could come at any moment. He could come at any moment. And she waits for a sign of her son to return.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[M]

After hours of nothing happening and just sitting in silence, the two of them head to bed. And they believe that the wish just didn't work.

[Christine]

I don't like where this is going.

[M]

Both of them laid awake, and the room felt so heavy that they couldn't sleep. So Mr. White gets up to light some candles, because remember, there are no other types of fucking light at this point in time.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You want to play chess?

[M]

Candle in the dark. Like Christine, which is why she couldn't read.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I should have gotten me a candelabra back then.

[M]

You would have really done wonders.

[Christine]

I wasn't allowed to own matches. I'm not making that up.

[M]

Well, so he goes to the stairs to light his first candle, and the lit match blows itself out.

[Christine]

Ah, you hate to see that.

[M]

And then he hears. Oh, just a gentle knocking at the door. And he cannot move. He's frozen. And then all of a sudden, he hears it again. And then he hears it again. And then he hears, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang on the door. Did everyone like that first?

[Christine]

It's a campfire tale.

[M]

First time. And that's why I drink history. I'm just slamming on things.

[Christine]

You're just, like, doing Foley work over there.

[M]

Thank you.

[Christine]

Let's call it what it is.

[M]

Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang on the door. And Mrs. White runs out of the bedroom and runs over to Mr. White, and before she can even get downstairs, the door is still banging and banging and banging. And Mr. White grabs her arm and begs her not to open the door. He's like, I have a really bad feeling. Do not open the door. Do not dread.

[Christine]

Dread.

[M]

He can sense something is off, but his wife does not care. And she screams, let me go. I'm coming, Herbert. I'm gonna let you in. She breaks free from her husband's grasp. She. They're still banging everywhere, banging all over the door. She breaks free from his grasp and runs to the door, and she starts unlatching the door, but there's a final bolt that's too tall for her, and she can't get it. So she's frantically screaming, help me unlock the door. Help me unlock the door. And he's just standing there hearing, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And panicked and desperate. She's begging for him to help. She's even grabbing a chair and dragging it over so she can stand on the chair and unlock it herself because he's moving too slow. What she doesn't know is that he's actually on the ground on his hands and feet, looking around, trying to find this. This monkey's paw so he can make a final wish before she gets to finally open the door.

[Christine]

Oh.

[M]

And so he's just hearing bang, bang, bang. And her crying and screaming and saying, I'm coming, Herbert. I'm going to come let you in. Help me unlock the door.

[Christine]

Frantically seeking this.

[M]

And he's like, where the. Is this palm?

[Christine]

Oh, geez.

[M]

Meanwhile, the door is still banging, and the knocks are getting louder and heavier, and his wife struggling, is getting louder and heavier here. And Mr. White, looking for the paw, finally finds it right as she's unlatching the last lock. And he makes a third wish. And we don't know what the wish officially is, but when she finally opens the door, nobody's there. And she runs out. He runs out into the street. Nobody is in the street, nobody's around the house. And the story ends with assuming that Herbert has returned back to the grave. And it ends with him just hearing his wife crying that his. Her son is officially gone.

[Christine]

Holy shit.

[M]

Now, to me, when I would look back on my experience pretending I read the book and trying to guess how it ended.

[Christine]

I can picture you on a stage someday, when I look back on the experience of pretending to read this book,

[M]

well, I remember I remembered that the sun, they made a wish, and somehow through, like, the. The chain of events, the son died. Even though that was nowhere near the wish that they grant, they asked. I remembered that part. And I thought, well, surely that's the first wish, because I know the three wishes happen, and that's gotta be the beginning of. Of hell. I did not know that the second wish was going to lead to something we don't even see the results of. And the third wish would just be closing out the story. And I remember thinking, well, no wonder I only remember the son dying. That the most tragic thing happens in, like, part one. Fun. Yeah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

And also I think, like, what's supposed to be, like, beautiful writing about it is like, we never know what the third wish is. And the third wish is whatever you need the third wish to be.

[Christine]

And I'm like, tell me what it is. Just tell me what it is like.

[M]

And I have to assume it's like, I wish he goes back to the grave or. But then how. How come that one got tied up in a pretty little bow and that no bad Consequences came from that.

[Christine]

But. So we don't know.

[M]

But we don't know. Maybe there's.

[Christine]

Maybe he was perfectly healthy, and he was about to open the door, and he said, and now he has to live with the uncertainty of, like, maybe his son was behind the door, like, perfectly healed, you know? And now he has to live with the uncertainty of, like, did I just, like, kill him again?

[M]

Oh, okay. Maybe I see where you're supposed to be the writer of the two. I. It feels like the movie hereditary a little bit, that there's, like, the parental guilt, and that's the dread that carries through the whole story.

[Christine]

Right? It's like the pattern. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ooh.

[M]

So in this, the. The foreshadowing, I just want to list some of the things that an English teacher would have been happy for me to note now was the foreshadowing of the risky chess playing and how he would impulsively make a wish without thinking it through. Although it feels like anyone would have made that kind of wish. Whether or not you're a risk, like,

[Christine]

pay off the loan is not like a risky wish either.

[M]

You know, especially in 2026, I'd be like, do you know how much debt we're all in?

[Christine]

Like, well, but especially back then, it's like, what the hell else? I mean, you have one thing that's, like, gonna magically help your. Your, like, your boring, sad life because you live in whatever year and there's nothing else to do.

[M]

Yeah, I just like candles, play chess.

[Christine]

Jesus Christ.

[M]

So that was the main foreshadowing, and

[Christine]

that was your friends once every 20 years. And then, by the way, they. You right over. Jesus, what a life.

[M]

So far, I'm learning that they should have lived further in the woods and not. They should have had less hobbies because talking to their friends was the problem.

[Christine]

And maybe that wasn't even the sun. Maybe that was someone else coming. Like, you never know, Will.

[M]

Well, so that's. Actually. No, that's. That's a great point. Not to be the English teacher all of a sudden, but I did read quite a few analyses of this book of. Just to, like, see if I was getting the full picture. And a lot of the discussion is often, well, what if the monkey's paw was just, like, a silly story that this guy told about on his travels and he threw it in a fire for the gimmick, and, like, it was just some paw that he picked up along the way? And there was never magic. It just happened to be that the Next day, their son died.

[Christine]

Oh, that's my favorite kind of story.

[M]

They just happened to get comp compensation for that. That equaled how much they needed.

[Christine]

And then it's like the human nature of, like, sensing that means more than it does and.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Trying to meddle in your own life. Oh, my God.

[M]

And then someone knocked on the door, and they weren't answering, so they just left. Like, it could have. It could be that the monkey's paw was never anything.

[Christine]

Wow.

[M]

As for symbolism, the number three is a big thing in this. I did not see anywhere why three had to matter. But there is at least a thread in the story of, like, there are three members in the family. The story's broken into three parts. Three different. Make three different wishes. The man that showed up to tell them about Herbert's death hesitated three times before going to the door. Mrs. White tells Mr. White to bring Herbert back and make the wish three times. A lot of threes. And apparently we care about that, but I have a clue why.

[Christine]

Okay. Yeah. The Trinity, all that good stuff.

[M]

Oh, see, this is what I need here. The religious element.

[Christine]

Listen, I didn't get a five on that thing for nothing. You know, Know every now and then, bring it back out.

[M]

I would also. I could see why this probably didn't get mentioned when we were younger because of the times. But now in 2026, I feel it is important to note that a lot of more modern analyses will tell you that the monkey's paw is, say it with me. Racist. Because it came out during a time this was written about a British family, and this monkey's paw was India.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

And it. It was basically, it was a time time in history when the British really were actually very racist of India. I don't know where we stand today. I don't know where we stood before, but in this moment, they were notably racist to India.

[Christine]

Well, yeah. I mean, yeah.

[M]

And the fact that the not so subtle messaging in the story is do not trust India, because a cursed paw from dangerous India will eventually harm the British people.

[Christine]

I mean, it is like a very British story, right? You've got, like, they go down to get the cursed King Tut remains, and they. Everything follows a curse back home. And it's like, well, maybe if you're a shitty person and you're, like, raping and robbing people's lands and, like, making them your own and, like, naming them after yourself, then, like, maybe it's a you problem and not, like, the gross ass, like, monkey paw you picked up in India. You Know what I mean?

[M]

Like, that is literally part of some of the discussions I saw where they were like, well, maybe this is just, like, what was coming your way anyway. Or if you want to make it spooky, maybe it was just karma in general and has nothing to do with, like, the fact that someone you don't know who's a different color than you as a practitioner.

[Christine]

I totally like that angle of, like, oh, my gosh, this monk, this foreign monkey paw cursed me. And it's like, I like that angle you mentioned of, like, hey, it could have just meant nothing. And, like, you created your life, just kind of created this set of circumstances, and now you're blaming, like, this foreign. Yeah, that's a really good point.

[M]

Well, also, let's note that the family's name is White.

[Christine]

Oh, yeah, I did. I almost said it's beginning, and I went. I hope we come back to that, because that's wild. So, okay, so it's pretty. I see why English teachers teach this. It's like a very. I can see the. I can see this.

[M]

Yeah. So the. The White family and tragedy befalls them from entertaining Indian practices. And in India, so dangerous, of course. So, anyway, that is something that hopefully gets noted these days. And there's a. I'm being very quick about that. Like, I. I was reading, like, essays about the conflict going on at the time in 1902, or the Victorian era with Britain and India. It was a lot. So I'm going to end on some fun facts, which is that. And this did come out in 1902 by, shockingly, a comedy writer, and he was just dabbling in something new. And then this is the work that he's most famous for now, which is, like, such a weird kick in the crotch.

[Christine]

I'm convinced comedy people have. So, I mean, that's. We turn dark shit into humor. So I feel like. Like, it's a natural, like, progression, because I do feel like it sounds weird, but I think it makes sense for, like. I think it makes it, like. I mean, what's his name? From Key and Peele, and, like, his horror. You know what I mean?

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Like, Jordan Peele, he.

[M]

Well, I agree with you. I just think it's also funny that, like, man, all I want to know. I want to be known for comedy. And now it's just.

[Christine]

Well, maybe he didn't. Maybe he was just a humor writer.

[M]

And.

[Christine]

And he's like, someday I'll break into the real writing. And maybe he finally did, you know, I don't think humor writing was Necessarily like the tip top in the Victorian era, but you know, sure.

[M]

No, it was, it was first published in Harper's monthly magazine, Fun Fact. And then he came out with his own collection of works which I think the rest of them were comedy. And this was just like the standalone horror one that the collection was called the lady of the Barge.

[Christine]

Oh my. I feel like I've heard of that. That.

[M]

Well, it was one of the other stories in there. But for some reason he named the collection after that one. Maybe that was the one he wanted to be known for. And you should just call.

[Christine]

He's like, this one's a banger.

[M]

Also, the monkey's paw Fun fact has been turned into. I saw 20, but probably over like 30 or 40 stage film and radio adaptations.

[Christine]

Oh, wow.

[M]

Including the Alfred Hitchcock hour had an episode. Orson Wells great mysteries had an episode. The Simpsons own. And my favorite was are you afraid of the dark?

[Christine]

They did enough, of course. Oh, well, you know what? I think I saw that.

[M]

Did you?

[Christine]

I think that's where my understanding of them and like I get got a very, let's say warped perspective of what that story is because I watched it on Nick at night or whatever or whatever that was on.

[M]

Yes, Nick at night. Yeah. And yeah, I also remember it. I remember the Simpsons episode too, but I mainly remember are you afraid of the dark park. And apparently the monkey's paw was the main influence for Stephen King's pet cemetery.

[Christine]

Oh. Because that's actually one of my next couple books I want to read.

[M]

Oh, really?

[Christine]

Because I finally read it, so now I'm on the pet cemetery.

[M]

I think all I know about pet cemetery is that like you're. The dog dies and then he wants his dog back. And then I think it's like, I

[Christine]

literally don't know anything.

[M]

I think it's like a zombie thing.

[Christine]

I'm not sure, but that's my, that's my vibe. And I. I read it with like zero understanding, except there's a clown. And now I'm like, wow, Holy. There's holy. Yeah.

[M]

I mean like parents used to like put books in the freezer when they were scared. I feel like, oh my God. Book that they did that with.

[Christine]

Oh. And then you open it and there's like, ah, clown on the front. Yeah.

[M]

Well, anyway, and then I was going to end with just. The moral of this apparently is be careful what you wish for. But I'm gonna add to that and it's apparently don't trust India. That was the. That was the moral, right?

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[M]

And we have now, in a very flowery way, just changed it to a simple, be careful what you wish.

[Christine]

I almost feel like it's like an. It's like a. A satirical comedy on. Like, this is going to sound like I'm making it up, but I'm not on colonialism. Like, I really think it sounds like the writer was writing it to be

[M]

like.

[Christine]

Like subversive a little bit. Like it's what it feels like to me. Or was he, like, writing it to be like, go, white people?

[M]

No, I. I don't know.

[Christine]

It feels so obvious, the symbolism, that I'm like, there's no way he wasn't, like, trying to make a statement. But maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was just like, I think you're onto something.

[M]

It does it. It was written in a way where it could have been taken either way. But I could see it just being

[Christine]

a political commentator, humor cop. If you're like a humor writer, you would be doing something like, satirical, like, dark comedy or like.

[M]

That is a great point, Christine.

[Christine]

Like the. Like the. The. The Jonathan Swift or whatever. The one, you know, the hilarious comedy.

[M]

The.

[Christine]

The. A Modest Proposal where we. Where you eat babies.

[M]

Nope.

[Christine]

You should have paid a little attention in high school because this part was. This part was interesting. It's like a. It's like a satirical essay from 17. 1729, which suggests that the Irish who were going through a. A famine eat their own children. But it was like a satire. But it was written as like, this is how we'll problem. And it's called A Modest Proposal.

[M]

Interesting. I. I'm gonna just take a shot in the dark and say, yes, it's a political commentary because that. It. It's. It could believably be that. It's a very short read, by the way. It's like. It's a very short read. If you wanted to read it. It took me half an hour.

[Christine]

Okay.

[M]

Which means it'll take two.

[Christine]

Speed.

[M]

But it was. It was a short read. I feel like if you. You would. I would love to hear your take after you've read it, if you want, but I'm just gonna say yes, because that sounds like it would. That it would be. It would be that. Yeah.

[Christine]

I don't know also. I mean, I'll read it and I'll see what. I think. This is based on the M's notes that I'm giving my commentary, so maybe I should actually read it first.

[M]

But, you know, no, I. I remember when I first saw one article and it said, oh, this is racist. And I went, how can that be? And then I went, oh, my.

[Christine]

How can that be?

[M]

Yeah, I was like. I was like. Because I didn't remember anything about it being Brit.

[Christine]

I just hear monkey's paw. And I'm like, oh, boy. A cursed monkey paw.

[M]

That's what I heard. I thought it was like, oh, you just found it from some creepy place. But apparently the creepy place was India, so I just. Sorry.

[Christine]

India, by the way, I immediately assumed racism. I was like, where else would you. Some. Some quote unquote savage nation, you know?

[M]

Yeah, that's exactly how. You're totally right. That's exactly how. I feel like they wanted it to come across. But. But to be fair, they. They. They didn't mention, like, the reason I'm hesitant about saying yes to a bingo political commentary is because it was mentioned so quickly and then never talked about again. It's not like it was a running theme to, like, keep talking about.

[Christine]

It feels almost like. Yeah, good point. Like, it's not about necessarily where it came from, but it.

[M]

It was like, oh, our friend has spent 20 years in India. And then he went, oh, I. The. Some practitioner gave this.

[Christine]

I understand. And that was context. That made sense at that time. Time. Yeah. Yeah.

[M]

But I also. I really, like, I. I want years to be the right thing.

[Christine]

I mean, listen, I. I don't even. I don't even. I'm gonna read it. I gotta read it.

[M]

I don't know. People in the comments, please, if you know any more, I would like to know more about this. But of course, everything's racist. Of course everything's racist.

[Christine]

Well, yeah, that's part of it. I mean, that's unfortunately part of it. You. Yeah, very cool. Em. I like your. I like your retellings, especially when I forget the actual story, which is almost always.

[M]

But I. I was nervous that, I don't know, it feels like I'm cheating a little bit by telling a story. I don't know. I don't know why it feels weird.

[Christine]

You cheated enough in high school. Why do you care now? We both did. I mean, I don't know that we cheated. We didn't really just do our work, though, so I did not. At least you're doing your work this time.

[M]

No, that's nice of you to say, because I was. When I was doing the notes. Notes. Doing the notes. Not even doing this. I was just reading the story and I was like, I feel weird that I'm not doing.

[Christine]

Listen, you can read the story in high school now. Here you are equipped to read it and do a whole book report on it.

[M]

Thank you.

[Christine]

That's also, like, a lot of people.

[M]

Thank you.

[Christine]

And then discuss, like, the racial implications. I feel like you should be, like, patting yourself on the back.

[M]

Thank you. Although it was a very. There. There was one. Let me see if I can even find it.

[Christine]

It's a lot of work. You've put in a lot of thought.

[M]

Not if I can find the link. I will. There. I mean, there was a few of them. If you type in monkey's paw racial implications, I'm sure it'll come up. But there was, like. There was a few, like, journals written about it, so I thought that was. It was interesting.

[Christine]

Interesting. I'm gonna have to look into that. Well, very good work. A plus from me.

[M]

Thank you.

[Christine]

Nailed it. You gotta. What were you saying earlier? You got a one. I said, you should tell my mom you got a 1.

[M]

1.

[Christine]

Because in Germany, that's an A. And I'll somehow swap with your mom and tell. I don't know. I'll figure it out. I'll say, in Germany, an F is a good thing.

[M]

F means fantastic.

[Christine]

It means fabulous. That's right. Yeah. Good job. Okay, I'm gonna go pee real quick, and then.

[M]

Yappy hour.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

Did you say you have a sticker book?

[Christine]

No.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

Oh, I meant, like, I have all these books like, that are like. Like, antique antiquarian sticker books, and they have, like, all the different. You know.

[M]

I was gonna say if you wanted to show us your sticker book.

[Christine]

Oh, no, I don't have that quite ready yet.

[M]

Is there anything you'd like to show us?

[Christine]

No, I've been doing a lot of tarot, but I could pull you a tarot card and practice.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

I've been doing readings for my brother. Or I could do. I don't know. I'll think about it. I'll pee and I'll think about it.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

The first line says, share how overwhelming organizing finances feels for you personally. And I'm like, we just met. Like, my therapist can't even get that out of me. So, like, we are just so proud to partner with Rocket Money.

[M]

Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. You would think I only needed Rocket Money once in my life, but I am someone who keeps just subscribing to new things and new things and new things.

[Christine]

It is a powerful, powerful tool. Basically, Rocket Money can track subscriptions and has the ability to cancel unwanted ones within the app. With a few taps, they have saved users over $880 million in canceled subscriptions. It's just something that I don't really recall how I would have handled this before. Rocket Money, you know what I mean,

[M]

can attest to the fact that I've saved quite a lot of money and I'm brave enough to say it. One of the subscriptions I paid for was $35. I didn't know and I didn't even know. That's the horrific part. And thank God Rocket Money was like, don't worry, it's canceled.

[Christine]

Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you could grow your savings.

[M]

Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster.

[Christine]

[e-mail] Drink that's RocketMoney.com Drink RocketMoney.com Drink hello, we are back from Potato Talk, our weekly bonus show where we discuss which types of potatoes we've had this week. And M has had some of the most delicious looking ones. So I have. If you're interested in any of that for some God forsaken reason, actually, you're missing out. If you don't see this picture of this potato, you can go to our bonus yappy hour, which I should be in your feed. And now it's time for my story. It felt, it felt, it felt inevitable. It felt inevitable. It felt like the only sort of next step. And I'm going to cover the murder suicide of Debbie and Mark Constantino today.

[M]

I don't know why I'm smiling and I can't take it off my face. That's horrible. That's horrible. Horrible. But I am so happy that you understood the assignment.

[Christine]

We had to do it. We had to do it because, you know, we've, we've done enough of. And at the beginning of this episode you said, we're done with Zach Bagans. And I thought that's what you think, my friend.

[M]

I feel so silly. I don't know why I, I think I thought like, oh, I'll suggest you cover it. But then like maybe in like a couple months or something, like it didn't occur to me.

[Christine]

It sort of took three times for me to go. It took your three part episode for me to go, oh, I should cover that. Like, it took me a while. I'm slow in the uptake every now and then, but like, I finally got it. I'm pretty excited about this one because it is so relevant to your topics as well. And I feel like it's. It's just. It's a dark one, folks. Okay, so Mark and Debbie, by the way, do you like. I didn't have much knowledge of these people before, even during the Zach Bagans years.

[M]

I knew that they were Zach's friends and I knew that they showed up sometimes.

[Christine]

Okay, okay. That's about all I knew too. So I'll give you some backstory. Mark and Debbie Constantino. And if you're unfamiliar with who they are, don't worry, we'll get to it. Yeah, we'll get to it. Mark and Debbie Constantino were married in 1989. Debbie herself had a lifelong connection to the paranormal. She was raised in a haunted house. She felt like she had a gift to speak with the dead. Meanwhile, Mark was a self described skeptic who said he had never experienced anything paranormal until he met Debbie. And that kind of like opened his eyes to the whole world of the paranormal.

[M]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Christine]

So together they launched a website called Spirits Speak. And they marketed themselves to the public as experts, most specifically with electronic voice phenomena. And, you know, you think about this was like 2004 or something. Yeah, exactly. Like before there were like apps for this and, you know, so they were kind of the. Some of the foremost experts on EVP usage and they would utilize audio recorders and noise generators to. To capture EVPs, and they actually ended up teaching like a college course or, or like a college seminar on ghost hunting with their EVP knowledge. So this was like a big deal. And this is how Zack Bagins kind of clocked them.

[M]

Sure.

[Christine]

Because, you know, he's got eyes on everything in the paranormal world. He's got the finger on the pulse,

[M]

which is why I'm so grateful he has hasn't threatened anything with us yet. I.

[Christine]

You know, it feels like we're still on the periphery though, because it bums me out. I'm like, does he not even care? You know, obviously not special.

[M]

No. I. So I was gonna ask, do you. And maybe you don't have this information, but do you think they were actually like audio tech experts or were they just like people who discovered the phrase EVP before anyone else and just taught people how to use a digital recorder in empty houses?

[Christine]

They got extremely good evidence and they had like, their own content that they would make where they were getting like very clear EVPs. And so they. I wouldn't necessarily say they were like licensed in anything or like had like, certificates, but they had a very good Reputation for being, like, well versed in the EVP world. And to the point that Zach Baggins would ask them to come out, help with EVP sessions, like, on his cases.

[M]

That's how they got in touch.

[Christine]

And that's how they got in touch. And he brought them on as recurring guest investigators and EVP specialists starting in 08. And I bet you, like, again, because that tech was, like, relatively new and, like, I don't know. Oh, wait, like, it would be helpful. You can't just necessarily Google everything yet.

[M]

Yet.

[Christine]

Right, right.

[M]

And if you know somebody, like, you're gonna just.

[Christine]

Yeah. Especially if they're, like, charming and, like, good personalities for television. Like, it just kind of made sense, I think. And the two of them being a couple was, like, of course a selling point. Right. Because it's like, oh, this, like, power couple, and they're these ghost hunter power couple. There are rumors which, like, I want to be so clear, are rumors, but there are rumors about, like, oh, Zach was kind of, like, flirting with her and, like, you know, she was a pretty woman, and like, maybe he got too close. I don't. And, like, most of the episodes that feature them. Yeah, I just. I don't know enough about it. Like, I. I feel like that's kind of a wild thing to say. Unless you have proof. Right? Like, I don't know. I wouldn't say let's not, like, create fictitious stories, but whatever.

[M]

Sure.

[Christine]

So listen, our Ghost Adventures is a really, like. It's a tough place. So that's all. I'll leave you with that. Anyway, they have this website, Spirit Speak. Zach and the Ghost Adventures crew take notice of them, bring them on for a few episodes, and then it becomes, like, a recurring guest episode. They provided audio analysis for several high profile tele. Televised lockdowns, including the old Idaho Penitentiary. I didn't even remember that was in the list.

[M]

Oh, I. And you know, I feel so silly. I literally just walked around there and didn't even think about, like, I wonder if Zach's been here. Like, it didn't even occur to me.

[Christine]

Wow.

[M]

Wow. Maybe I need to watch that tonight just so I can be like, oh, I was there. Maybe that's why I felt so safe in the woman's world. Because I have a feeling they did not touch the woman's word on their.

[Christine]

Right. Fair point. And like, I mean, listen, it's like a bunch of bros and her going there, you know, and then she ends up being the victim. It's like, what a terrible full circle that means.

[M]

Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. So including that. The old Idaho Penitentiary episode, the Trans Allegheny Lunatic Asylum, and the Washoe Club.

[M]

Okay. Do you know much about the Washoe Club? I feel like I've covered it, and if I haven't and I looked it up. Oh, then I'll do that. That'll be my next episode. That's easy.

[Christine]

It's gotta be, because it's a big one. Watch some. I made sure not to watch. Watch all.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

That I, like, watched enough for this story.

[M]

I just wrote down.

[Christine]

And then I was like, well, now M. Needs to do.

[M]

It's handled. It's handled. Now. Now we know what.

[Christine]

What next week is, you know, can't

[M]

stand about the butterfly effect. That is Zach Baggins, our big tattooed butterfly. Is that every time. Like, I thought it was gonna be one goddamn episode, and not even. I thought it was gonna be. This was about a complete. This was about a random hotel.

[Christine]

It wasn't even about him.

[M]

Yeah, it wasn't about him. It was about a random hotel. Then he showed up. Then he got, like, three episodes out of me. And now this is your story. And now I'm doing the Washout Club man.

[Christine]

And by the way, like, he's, like, surrounding himself like, I can't get away either because the Aaron Hitman scandal or whatever. And then, like, now that. I mean, it's. Or this first, then the Hitman skin. It's like, Jesus. Like, he has drama and like, true crime.

[M]

He would say cursed, I imagine, and.

[Christine]

Uhhuh. Yeah, he would. He would say a lot of things. Okay, so we're gonna get to the Washout Club. So from the outside, like I said, they were sort of like a paranormal power couple. And because Zach was kind of giving them this, like, platform that was bigger than what they had before, people were starting to, like, really get attached to them. And to this day, they, like, people are really, really sad about what happened, obviously, for obvious reasons, but also because they just felt really, like, drawn to these two people as investigators and TV personalities. They had a lot of fans. They toured the country lecturing at paranormal conferences. They even co taught, like I said, a class on ghost hunting at Truckee Meadows Community College in 2012. However, behind the scenes, which we now know, but didn't quite realize at the time, is that their marriage was plagued by a long escalating history of domestic domestic violence.

[M]

Right.

[Christine]

Very, very toxic, back and forth, breaking up. I'll get to the specifics, but domestic violence on both sides. Just a lot of. A lot of. A lot of. Just A hard, hard relationship. So the Mustang Ranch episode is probably the most besides Washoe Club, I think the most like, like the episode most referenced when discussing the couple, especially on Reddit. Because there was a weird moment on this episode that fans talk about a lot. There is this point in the episode, they're at this brothel, like this former brothel, and Mark aggressively pressures Debbie to take her shirt off and she like, doesn't want to do it. And he's like, gets really aggressive and forceful about it and is like, that's how we're gonna get the ghost. Like you have to take your shirt off. And people kind of looking back are like, oh God. Like, that's a really big red flag.

[M]

Like the signs weren't just there. The signs totally like tattooed onto our eyes.

[Christine]

Right. And there's another episode people talk about. And again, these have mostly been scrubbed. So like you can find them. But like, I didn't go seeking all of them out. But sure. People talk about an episode where Mark also like kept saying, we should have sex in here because that'll like draw the ghosts in. And she was like, I don't know. And he was like, just really at some point.

[M]

And I'm this. I'm not trying to blame anybody. However, like cameramen. Hello. No one was gonna say anything. Like, everyone.

[Christine]

They. The cameramen aren't there. Like their own cameraman. Isn't that their whole thing?

[M]

Yeah, no one was being a. An upstander to that. Where they.

[Christine]

Well, and also like putting that in the end in the show.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Like, but then look, like we have this fucking thing with. With Frankie. With. With Frankie Paul or what's her name?

[M]

The.

[Christine]

Frank.

[M]

The Ruby Frankie.

[Christine]

No, not Ruby Frankie. Sorry. The. The Mormon housewife.

[M]

Oh, I am unfamiliar.

[Christine]

She was going to be the bachelorette. And then like, they're like, oh, this video surfaced of her like abusing. Physically abusing and assaulting her husband.

[M]

Oh.

[Christine]

At the time. But like that came out years ago, so it's like we already knew about that. Why are you like ABC thought they could kind of like just skirt that and no one would care. Question mark. And now they're like, oh my God. So they canceled the Bachelorette. Cuz people were upset.

[M]

That's what that's about. I did not know.

[Christine]

Yeah, it's just kind of like, what. What are we doing? Like, let's somebody. Nobody caught any of this. You know what I mean? Like, where did this get through production where you're like, I wonder. He's literally demanding she take her clothes off. But then I'm like, the people who watch this, and, like, the vibe is just so different. And it was 2008, you know, and I hate to be that guy, but think about, like, YouTube. Back then, people were literally doing blackface, and nobody was, like, batting an eye.

[M]

Like, 2000.

[Christine]

Crazy time.

[M]

I know he would hate this, and I'm so sorry to throw his name in, but I often call, like, the 2008 or 2010 era, like, the Bo Burnham era, where, like, shock value, humor was the thing.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[M]

And so, like, it was the thing.

[Christine]

Edgy. You wanted to be edgy. Like, that was the whole thing.

[M]

Not to. It was just, like, it was so normalized at the time. And I. And part of me, like, hopes that, like, maybe an editor kept it in, hoping someone would notice. Like, I'm trying to think of something, but you're totally right that it would just be. Just be like, no, nobody paid attention. I mean, and that's so sad. That just shows, like, how, like, see something, say something, and how do you not see that?

[Christine]

But, like, people didn't see it, but nobody saw it. Like, I mean, we could have watched that episode and probably. What are we gonna say, you know? Yeah, it's sort of like. It's sort of like, yeah, see something, say something. But it's also like, they're a couple, and, like, maybe they're having an argument. I don't know. It's like, it looks bad now, but it's like, at that time, like, there was no. No, nobody watching, like, knew that they had a really tumultuous relationship. Like, nobody knew that. Right.

[M]

You know, it's interesting that you to hear about this. After I covered, like, how Zach is, like, so weird about those episodes airing, or, like, how he was acting so weird. He was, like, so hesitant to even mention Mark's name. I could see him just having, like, unbelievable guilt and hindsight. Hindsight, like, of just being like, oh, yeah, I was in that room and didn't say anything, you know, and like, oh, he.

[Christine]

Oh, in that room. No, he was not in that. It was like one of those camera captures where they're, like, in the bordello by themselves.

[M]

I'm saying, as a producer who gets to, like, approve stuff, like, he, like, probably didn't even see it at the time.

[Christine]

Yeah, he probably was like, oh, that's funny. You know, and now it's like. Is it funny, though?

[M]

Yeah. I could see why he just. He. I mean, I'm. I know nothing, but I would assume he feels. Feels not too Great about that now.

[Christine]

I. I don't know. I don't know if he thinks about it at all. I have no clue.

[M]

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on that tangent there, but.

[Christine]

No, you're good. It was just. You can kind of look back and see some of these, like, kind of red flag moments where you're like, oh, he's a lot more controlling than we realized. It just, like, in. Out of context didn't necessarily click. So the domestic abuse escalated in 2015. In March, Debbie was arrested after a fight over finances where she scratched Mark and allegedly sliced his arm with a kitchen knife. She was charged with domestic violence, but she never had her day in court. So that's why we're saying alleged. She never. Yeah, she never got her day in court because something very terrible and tragic happened only months later. So just see six weeks before the final tragedy, Mark and the couples, which I didn't know this at all. All that this part happened. Their adult daughter, Raquel and Mark, Raquel's dad slash her husband. Debbie's husband kidnapped Debbie, like, ambushed her. This is August 2015, six weeks before the murder. According to court documents, they pulled Debbie out of a car by her neck, dragged her inside a house, and beat her until her nose was broken and bleeding. What the. Mark then strangled her until she nearly passed out. And so, like, this was six weeks. This is where I start to get really just a hill. Yeah. Mark was booked on suspicion of first degree kidnapping and domestic battery by strangulation. And Raquel was also arrested for her participation. And kidnapping is generally a no bail offense. But a local judge granted them bail. He got bail at 40,000 and she got bail at 30. And because they were allowed to use a bond, they only had to pay, like, a small fraction of it. So they were, like, immediately released.

[M]

Wow.

[Christine]

They were ordered to stay away from Debbie, who finalized a restraining order against Mark one week before her murder.

[M]

And because you said the whole, like, she scratched his arm at one point. Point. So are both of them being violent with each other or was like.

[Christine]

Okay.

[M]

I don't know if one was like,

[Christine]

she was arrested in March for assaulting him. Then he and his daughter kidnapped her. Then they went to jail. They were arrested, but then they got out on bail.

[M]

Did not know if maybe it was like, reactive abuse or like, she only hurt them in retirement.

[Christine]

Well, we don't know. That's why it's a letter. Alleged.

[M]

We don't know.

[Christine]

Okay. Because she just never got to give of context.

[M]

Sure.

[Christine]

You know?

[M]

Sure.

[Christine]

So it very well could be. Yeah. So. And people also speculate there were a lot of drugs involved. And. And when the daughter gets involved, it's like, there. Then rumors start going, like, all over. So we don't necessarily know, like, the full context of it. But I just want to add, like, I was reading this earlier, and I just was so enraged by the. The Restraining Order section that. And I have to laugh because a few days ago I asked Blaze a question, and he said something like, oh, well, that book that you're obsessed with, the Gift of Fear. And I'm like, I'm not obsessed with that book. He's like, yes, you are. And I'm like, no, maybe I am. I don't know. I mean, I feel like I never talk about it anymore, but, like, there

[M]

was a time period where it was, like, very. It was, like, very relevant to a lot of stuff you're talking.

[Christine]

Yeah, it was definitely talked about it for a while. And then I think, like, there were times where you would say, like, oh, Christine's favorite book, or whatever, you know? And so I think, like, it just became cemented because I was like, wait, what? But now I'm like, yeah, I guess I did talk about a lot. But so, of course, now after, I have to eat my words because I have a little. A little excerpt for you here. This is an excerpt from. Of course. Where else? Your favorite letter? No. The newsletter of Critical Risk Management at the Medical College of Wisconsin.

[M]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

Yeah. Oh, you didn't get it. You didn't guess that it's about risk assessment in healthcare and the use of. And like, suggesting the value of suggesting people get straining restraining orders versus suggesting they not get a restraining order and kind of the pros and cons. And here is a. An excerpt from this. This. What do you call it, this newsletter.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

In the Gift of Fear, Gavin de Becker writes, restraining orders are most effective on the reasonable person who has a limited emotional investment. In other words, they work best on the person least likely to be violent. Anyway, One category of such a person is the naive pursuer. People in this category are generally rational but unaware of the inappropriateness of their behavior. Behavior because the naive pursuer does not intend harm and does not become angry when rejected. If an explicit statement to stop does not end the behavior, a restraining order could be an effective tool to stop the unwanted behavior. By contrast, if the goal is to prevent a murder, the civil restraining order is probably the wrong strategy. However, that is exactly the strategy commonly employed by healthcare facilities that may fail to recognize and Police that may fail to recognize a restraining order is a rejection. And rejection is a very common trigger to violence.

[M]

Sure.

[Christine]

Further restraining orders turn what was a very private rejection into a public one.

[M]

Sure. It's very much like people. It's like an embarrassed man is a dangerous man is like.

[Christine]

Exactly.

[M]

Yeah. Or however the phrase goes. But it's. Yeah. It's like you are publicly shaming him and therefore he will react.

[Christine]

It's like the. It's like, what do you think's gonna happen? This guy's already tried to strangle you to death, and then you get a rest, you make her get a restraining order? Like that's gonna work. I just really.

[M]

It's like this guy already breaks rules. What. What. What's paper gonna do?

[Christine]

The violent, the violence. Like, it was already illegal to do that. It didn't stop him the first time. Now it's illegal on paper too. Like, whatever. I'm just annoyed. Okay, I get it. So let's get back to this. The event took place Tuesday, September 22, 2015. Around 6:30am A woman returned home to her northwest Reno house to find her 55 year roommate, James Anderson, shot dead in the hallway. Did you know about this part?

[M]

No.

[Christine]

There was another person killed.

[M]

Had no clue.

[Christine]

Me neither. She immediately called the police, terrified because her other roommate, Debbie Constantino, was missing. Police ping Debbie's cell phone, tracing it across town to her daughter Raquel Constantino's apartment at the Courtside Garden Complex in Sparks, Nevada. Nevada.

[M]

Oh.

[Christine]

When officers arrived around 11am and knocked on the door, Mark Constantino fired several shots at them. They did not return fire. They locked down the surrounding area, including a nearby high school. And through the barricaded door, they could hear Mark yelling, give me 15 minutes to gather my thoughts or I'll kill her.

[M]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Hostage negotiators tried for over two hours to get Mark to surrender, having their final contact with him at approximately 1:15pm DM. And he. He just stopped responding after. After a while. Shortly after officers heard a single gunshot, the SWAT team used explosives to breach the apartment door and found both Mark and Debbie dead from fatal gunshot wounds. He had killed her and then shot himself afterward.

[M]

Wow.

[Christine]

So the day after the tragedy, Ghost Adventures host Zach Bagans, we know him well, posted on Twitter calling it a very tragic, dark day. And then, following the event, the Travel Channel and streaming platforms quietly removed several episodes that prominently featured Mark and Debbie, including, of course, Mustang Ranch and the Goldfield Hotel investigations.

[M]

And do you know if that. Because I. I didn't understand my. From what I was finding online, it was that Zach requested them be removed. But do you know if there was, like, like, legally they felt like they should remove it?

[Christine]

I actually don't know that. I tried to find out if there was, like, a personal reason, a legal reason, and it just said that they were removed and taken down.

[M]

My best understanding was that Zach requested it, but I. I don't know if that's true or not.

[Christine]

I don't either. I'm not sure. I have no clue. So within the paranormal community, right there, of course, was a lot of. A lot of grief and a lot of sadness and a lot of shock. Like, like, you know, you see these people every now and then. They become like characters you like and. And watch, and all of a sudden you find out just this horrible, horrible darkness that lived in their marriage relationship you had no clue about. So there was unfortunately a bit of a disturbing narrative that still continues surrounding this, which is that some fans suggest that Mark's actions were caused by demons or dark entities that attach because he was. Wasn't ghost hunting safely enough. Yeah, yeah. This is like, something that's a big no for me, dog. Like, I. I think let's not excuse the behavior by saying, like, a demon did it, you know, and he was, like, a documented abuser, domestic abuser, and, like, he made a human decision to murder his wife. So I just don't find much, like. And there is discourse about that online. Like, people will literally be like, well, he had so many dark attachments. Like, what? How could he have? And it's like, no, yeah, no, I'm good. No, thanks. No, he's not a victim in this. Sorry. You know, and even.

[M]

Even if there was a storyline where, like, he would never act this way before and had no history, and then all this sudden this happened, we should still argue a case of mental illness way before demons.

[Christine]

Yeah. I just feel like there's some very. Let's just say, like, patterns that are very easily accessible where you can see, like, hey, the most obvious thing is that this is the thing that happens all the time, every day, over and over again.

[M]

Demons are.

[Christine]

Demons are.

[M]

I think at the bottom of the letter on.

[Christine]

Yeah, I would say it's not necessarily right. It's not my first theory, you know. Now, whether he was a terrible person and some dark energy attached to him and, like, made him even feel more terrible. I don't know. Okay.

[M]

But, like, yeah, maybe demons are sprinkled into the recipe.

[Christine]

Right.

[M]

But, like, doesn't make it the full Recipe.

[Christine]

It's a him. It's a him problem.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

So the show generated, as in Ghost Adventures, also generated some controversy when the crew returned to Virginia City City, Nevada. I don't know if you knew that existed.

[M]

I think I did. Is that where Goldfield Hotel is?

[Christine]

It's actually where the Washoe Club is.

[M]

Oh, Nevada City. I swear to God, that's. Oh, I'm thinking Virginia City in Nevada. I think that's where.

[Christine]

Oh, no, that is what it is. Sorry. Virginia City, Nevada.

[M]

They certainly. Maybe you know what it was. It's because they mentioned it was in the original 2004 documentary. They say Virginia City. And I feel like everything else in Virginia City were those two weeks where they didn't find anything. Everything. And then they found the.

[Christine]

Because they actually mentioned the documentary in this, like. And I'm like, I thought the documentary was about a different place, but yeah. Okay, so that does make sense. So they're in the same town then?

[M]

Same town where they did all of the investigations, and only Gold Gotcha gave them Gotcha. Yeah.

[Christine]

Okay, well, I'd be. I'm so curious to hear you cover

[M]

this, because I can't wait. I love. I love spooky when a suggestion comes up like this.

[Christine]

What I watched was kind of. Kind of creepy. I'll be honest. I mean, it was also, like, ridiculous, but it was also spooky.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

Okay. So the Ghost Adventures show created a bit of controversy when they returned to Virginia City in 2018 for the WashO Club Colon Final Chapter.

[M]

Okay.

[Christine]

During the lockdown, they specifically called out to Mark and Debbie, claiming to capture an EVP of Debbie's voice. Some fans saw it as, like, a tribute. Like, you know, she. They were the EVP experts. Like, if anyone was gonna want to be contacted via EVP would be her. But then, of course, like, it's also really tough to reconcile, like, this domestic violence, murder victim. Like.

[M]

Yep.

[Christine]

Being Making your show, you know, being part of your television show, like, even other friends, you know, Like, I just. I didn't. I. I can see why. There was quite a bit of controversy online about this and people debating, and they did get some creepy EVPs, and. And Aaron and Zach just, like, break down. Like, they just start sobbing about. About missing. Missing them. They're just crying, and, I mean, it's really horrible. It's just really. It's just really, really, really sad. And, like, I'm not. I don't think the way they did it, Like, I was expecting to go in there and be horrified about, like, their Lack of tact or whatever. But, like, I didn't feel like it was as. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't feel it was as disrespectful. Like, if you were murdered or something. Like, not to. I'm not being glib. I curious. Like, I would probably try to talk to you through a.

[M]

Sure.

[Christine]

And I'm not. I mean, just because I'm like, oh, that's what we would do. You know what? I.

[M]

First of all, it's what I demand. Let's start there. But, no, I understand what you're saying.

[Christine]

So I feel like there's kind of a. To me, at least a little bit of a gray area there. But I just want to add here, like, because this is kind of where I think the main point that I want to just kind of of shut down all the, like, demonic theories with is the unfortunate patterns I referenced earlier. It's bad. Okay, folks. So the current stats are as follows. According to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, over one in three women and one in four men in the US have experienced rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner. If you or someone you know is dealing with domestic abuse, confidential help is available 24. 7. You can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE or text the word START 288-788 if it is an active emergency. Excuse me. Always dial 911 first. Now, the Washoe Club Final Chapter. I watched some of this because I just had to see what the deal was. It opens with a walking monologue, and I haven't watched ghost adventures in a while. I don't know how many open with, like, a walking. I can say kind of all do.

[M]

I don't know. Let's see how this goes.

[Christine]

Okay, so it opens to the walkie monologue, and he's kind of like this.

[M]

Oh, yeah, yeah, you got it.

[Christine]

This is a very special episode, ladies and gentlemen. We are returning to a place where we haven't been for about nine years. A place that has left its mark on me both physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally. How does he do it? Emotionally?

[M]

Yeah, yeah. It's. Every syllable is its own journey.

[Christine]

Emotionally.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

We are returning to the Washoe Club in Virginia City. This is the Washoe Club Final Chapter. And, like, I just love. This is such a. Like, a petty grammar thing. But, like, I love that it says left its mark both. And then he lists, like, five things. Like, both physically. And then he, like, lists five things. I'm like, okay, that's like when.

[M]

With the. With Final Chapter, Goldfield Hotel, he said, like, I took this real personal, and I'm like, personally.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, okay, buddy, whatever. Another quote I wanted to point out from the trailer, from the teaser trailer I watched on Facebook before watching the intro quote, I've been getting messages and dreams and visions of coming back here. And, like, honestly, when I watched that, and I ended up watching him tell the caretaker or the manager who. And he says, I've been getting these dreams messages that I feel are being sent or broadcasted to me from the spirits that are here. And I'm not saying that's impossible. And I'm saying this, like, completely not throwing shade again, not being glib. Like, this also feels like ptsd.

[M]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Like, I'm having dreams of this place where my two friends and I would spend a lot of time. And I feel like I just wanted to come back here. And not.

[M]

Like, it sounds like he's like, mid grief, right?

[Christine]

And like, then he like, sobs in one of the rooms and it's like, okay, I'm not saying, listen, maybe the ghosts are calling him back. But I. I just. I was very kind of, like, taken aback when he said, like, I've been. Get having dreams about coming here. And like, I'm like, of course you have, dude. Like, of course something extremely traumatic happened.

[M]

I feel like. I don't know if. I mean, it's certainly not his style, and I don't even know if he would have been. Been. I don't know what the right word is. I don't know if he would have been aware of. I don't know. I. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna be more crass about it. But I. I feel like it would have been a really wonderful opportunity for him to have a conversation with his audience about the overlap of mental illness being ignored. For the conversations about paranormal stuff. Stuff it would have been. That would have been a really good time for him to be. Like, a lot of people claim that there's paranormal stuff going on, but there's mental health crises or, you know, there's

[Christine]

something else going on, didn't discuss them and what happened at all. So I don't know, maybe you'll see somewhere, like, have you seen him talk about, like, what happened? Because he did not mention it.

[M]

I feel like in the Goldfield Hotel, one he likes, I mean, he literally was so scared to say their names, but in hindsight, I'm like, was he scared to say their names or legally was he not to. Supposed. Supposed to be talking about them and he was acting like he just couldn't talk about it because he was so overwhelmed with feelings.

[Christine]

I mean, I will say, like, you can tell they're like, they're really not feeling good. Like, I mean, they're like in a bad place mentally, emotionally, like struggling.

[M]

I mean, maybe that was. That could have been again, in a conversation about mental health or like even a conversation about just like grieving your friend. Friends. I mean, if you're Zach Baggins and your whole job is death in the afterlife, this is a great time to talk about your own experiences losing people.

[Christine]

And apparently Billy, it was hit. So Billy actually spent like several investigations with those two there. Like, he like, had a very personal. At the Swasho Club. Like, he was like, we spent so much time here. And he starts, he's like, I can't do this. And then of course that goes. He's like, well, it's important for people to see. And he's like zooming in on his face. He's like, I want to stop filming or something. He's like, well, it's important for people to see. I'm like, you're such a dick.

[M]

Yeah, it's like, it's such a weird. He is such an anomaly because like, yes, I. Because you could have.

[Christine]

I don't think he's a sociopath. I really don't. Like, I don't.

[M]

No. I think he's just, he, he knows clout when he sees it and it. He becomes tunnel visioned about the clout.

[Christine]

He likes the cachet. He loves it.

[M]

I feel like though, he could have, first of all, if he. I'm not saying he wasn't grieving his family and friends or his friends, but like, it's shocking to me that he didn't think like, maybe. Can we just record in like two weeks or can we film in two weeks? Like, can we go to a different location? Like, this is too soon.

[Christine]

It was years later.

[M]

Oh, it was years later.

[Christine]

Oh yeah, it was.

[M]

Didn't you?

[Christine]

I believe so. Let me see.

[M]

I didn't remember that part. I don't know. I feel like there could have been a conversation there, but at the very

[Christine]

least being like three. Sorry, I. I lagged. My bad.

[M]

No, go ahead. What were you saying?

[Christine]

It was three years later, so it was 2018.

[M]

I feel like maybe it's because I just know it's what you and I would have done. And so I'm like, so like persistent about it, but I feel like there's There should have at least been one clip that stayed in about, like. This is going to be a really heavy episode for us. So let's not get confused about, like, what's paranormal and what's.

[Christine]

Well, I will say he does give like a say, like mental health. Like, he says, like, here's the phone number. You know, this is something I think he does. I think he does make a statement. I mean, you watch the whole thing and tell me. I was kind of like, I didn't want to get too into it because I wanted to make sure you got, like, the full story yourself. But, like, I did see him at the end, say, giving a phone number of first. So maybe he does. I. I'm not sure though. You'll have to update me.

[M]

Can't wait. Thank you for the. The research that's now available to me. But no, I'll. I'll come back with my own take on it, I guess.

[Christine]

Sorry. I can't wait for you to see this part, which was my favorite. The. He's like, always himself in the intro when he's talking to this guy.

[M]

He's always himself. That should be our quote.

[Christine]

Even in grief, right? Like, he's always. He's just. He's always himself. He. The guy goes, yeah, well, there's not a day that goes by that some tour group doesn't bring up Ghost Adventures in. Zachary goes like, I know.

[M]

You're so welcome.

[Christine]

Yeah, I know. And then he's like, yeah, I love that. And then they, like, have these, which you'll see on the show, but they have these, like, pans of over these, like, glass museum glass top cases. And it literally says Zach's shirt worn on. And he's like, yeah, it's just, you know, it's cool that you have like, my shirt on display. And I'm like, you know that, man, the fact that he took that shirt off.

[M]

Yes. I was gonna say there's no way. They actually said, can we please have your shirt? He just got nake getting in front

[Christine]

of them for no Doubt.

[M]

And then we better go back to

[Christine]

them and sign the episode. He goes, yeah, you have my shirt. And then, of course, I took a picture says Zach's shirt from Ghost Adventures. While wearing this shirt, by the way, in like, one of those crazy fonts. While wearing this shirt, Zach discovered that the Washoe Club was indeed haunted. Okay. And then it's just folded in a glass top case. And then the next thing is Aaron's vintage visor. He had a visor that said Virginia City, this really tacky tourist visor. And that's also in the case.

[M]

So when we were at the Queen Mary, we should have just taken our pants off and just left them there. And then they should have encased them in glass like that. That's how ridiculous this is.

[Christine]

That's how stupid saw you trying to get me to take my pants off. So I would go in that bathroom where the demon was, and I said, I'm not taking my pants off for you or anyone in that bathroom. So sorry. Nice.

[M]

Had I known that it was going to be encased in glass, I might have fought a little harder. But, yeah, but that's how stupid this sounds. It's like, oh, and here are his Q tips to use in the bathroom.

[Christine]

I mean, literally, it's absurd.

[M]

Like, at the very least, it should be like, these. This is the equipment they used.

[Christine]

Also, like, there is a camera in there, but it's like, the shirt is definitely the shirt and the hat. And, like, the hat says Virginia City. So, like, presumably he got it, like, that day. Like, Aaron got it that day. I'm like, what are we doing here? Like, this is weird, guys. Oh, oh, wait. I forgot. Wait. I did watch part of this episode, and I. I. This. Maybe I watched more than I remembered. I think I was a little bit sleepy on some. Some gummies. Some THC gummies. Mood. Have you heard of it, guys? It's a great brand. Okay, there is this line where they are talking to Debbie. And I was watching this because I'm like, okay, this is where they're actually communicating with the victim or allegedly communicating with the victims of the story I'm telling. So I'm, like, paying close attention, and you just hear a, like, a female. Female voice. And they're really emotional, and they go, that's Debbie. Cut. Smash cut. I'm in the candy factory right now, and I'm going to make turtles. And it's Zach, and he acts a fool. For the next probably 15 minutes, he and Aaron act like they. I mean, you know how they act? They act.

[M]

He's always himself.

[Christine]

He's always himself. Ha h. Like, literally, he. And then the whole time he's going, it doesn't look like a turtle. I don't get it. It doesn't look like a turtle. And she's like, well, there's the head. And he's like, I don't see any legs. Where's the tail? And I'm like, will you stop? Like, use your inside voice first of all. And then he gives this Thing to the kid. Oh, my God. This kid walks in, and Zach goes, I forgot I wrote all this down. I was having, like, complete meltdown last night, to be fair. I looked at the turtles. I was like, they don't look like turtles to me either. So.

[M]

So they're actually kind of right.

[Christine]

So actually, Zach's, like, onto something. So he tells these customers they're about to eat the best turtles they've ever eaten. If you don't know what this is, it's like, I think, like a chocolate

[M]

caramel cluster kind of thing.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. And I think they put it on. Whatever. It doesn't matter. Pretzel or something. I don't know. He tells the customers they're about to eat the best turtles they've ever eaten because he made them. And he, like, hands it to this little boy who's probably like, eight. And he goes, I made this. And the boy goes, did you make them, or did you just pour the chocolate on them?

[M]

That's a good boy.

[Christine]

Aaron loses his mind. And he's like, this kid, like. He's like, this kid is hilarious or whatever. Like, this kid is clearly just punking Zach. And Zach is just like, I did make it. And then Billy says, yeah, Zach, how did you make it? What temperature did you cook it at? And then literally, just like, art. Art. And I now understand why you retell these. It is art.

[M]

Thank you for saying that. Because sometimes I get so in my head that I. I'm like. I'm so off topic, but it's.

[Christine]

I'm like, I wrote this down, thinking, I probably won't get to that. Now I'm like, this is my favorite part.

[M]

No, I. I'm glad you said that, because I. It makes me feel better about my own retellings.

[Christine]

I mean, listen, it's just you, like, once you watch it, you're like, someone else has to hear about it. This is insane. Someone else has to know. He literally. So this is all happening. He looks at the camera like, office style. Because this kid's like, did you really make it? Or did you just pour chocolate on it? And he's like. And then they're all, like, mocking him, right? And they're like, oh, what temperature you cook? And as it's, like, fading it. You hear the voiceover, like the traditional Zachary voiceover. And it goes. It is so good to know that I have the support of my team as I try to broaden my skill set. And then, like, ends the. And I went, now, that's a good play, my friend.

[M]

That's an episode that didn't get a lot of paranormal content. And we're just filling in.

[Christine]

The gas stopped after that. I think there's more. More like, they go back. That was where I stopped because I was like, oh, I got wrapped into the candy store. But then I was like, oh, this is the story I might cover.

[M]

So, like, that was very nice of you.

[Christine]

I'm quitting at the. But M, You've got to watch the candy store thing. Okay, I'm sorry. I, Like, I know I explained it very well.

[M]

You did. And I thought I could, like, skirt. Never having to see it, but unfortunately,

[Christine]

especially the part where they go, that's Debbie. I'm here at this chocolate factory, and

[M]

I'm like, I can't wait to mention that. Because I'm gonna be like, what the. Isn't this, like.

[Christine]

So anyway, it's like. It's just bananas. So thank you, everyone, for listening to me kind of like, invade Trespass into M's territory for a little while. It was very thrilling. I loved watching ghost adventures for work. I felt very.

[M]

It's a good time.

[Christine]

It's not like it's the first time I've done that, but, you know, it's. It's always a pleasure. It's always a treat.

[M]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, thank you. I. And thank you for the topic. Says now I don't have to spend, you know, X amount of time. Time.

[Christine]

Well, Dino, thank you for the topic because it took me three episodes to kind of pick up on what you were laying down, and then I went, oh, so, yeah, if you have any more, you have to be very explicit and you have to remind me repeatedly, because otherwise I will forget.

[M]

Understood. Well, what do you. Do you have any plans this week? Anything coming up?

[Christine]

I don't even know what day it is. I'm. I'm completely lost. I've lost it. Oh, Leona. Spring breaks finally, finally, finally, finally over.

[M]

It sounded like a nightmare a little bit.

[Christine]

It's just. It's so fun. And then by like, 6:00pm, you're like, I can't burnt out. Be ex. I can't exist right now. Like, I want to crawl into a hole and just never speak. Like, it's just like, you get so sim. At least I do, like, stim. Overstimulated. Oh, yeah. But no, we've had a wonderful time. So much crafting. But then I fall behind on all my work. Right. Like, we had a really fun time, but I just feel like this is, like, catch up week, so probably nothing Too exciting. Yeah. What about you?

[M]

Well, I was just telling you during the yappy hour, I did not realize how close to time I was to. I had a trip planned with my mom for so long, and I've been hearing, like, oh, yeah, in April. Oh, yeah, in April. Oh, yeah, in April. And then I just kept.

[Christine]

It feels far away. And then it's suddenly a week, and now a week.

[M]

And now all of a sudden, I'm like. I'm like, oh, fudge. Like, I'm going back on another fudgeing plane next week. I'm like, this is, like, not what I signed up for, but it's literally what I head out, like, in, like, I guess a week and a half. But I'm very excited. So I'm going to Jersey in New York, and I'm. I'm doing that. I've obviously been to both of them before, but my mom and I are doing a. An early Mother's Day, slash, her birthday trip. But I told her I wanted to do certain things in Jersey that I know she does not care for. And so I'm going in a day early, and I'm going to go take a tour of the Jersey Shore storehouse.

[Christine]

She's not interested in that.

[M]

I know. Well, she. She put in a good fight. She was like, no, no, we could. We. She keeps calling it Snooki's house. She's like, are you gonna go to Snooki's house? Okay. So she'd be.

[Christine]

She's more on board than, like, my mother, who'd be like, oh, a lighthouse. And I'd be like, all right. Like, you're like, not even in the ballpark.

[M]

She was willing to do it for me, but I was like, honestly, no. It's gonna be so embarrassing knowing you're watching me react to things you have no idea about. And if you knew about them, you judge me for reacting so favorably because it was such a milestone.

[Christine]

You don't want to have to temper your authentic self.

[M]

Yeah. Yeah. Because Jersey Shore was. Is so problematic. But talk about, like, you know, that era of shock value and, like, oh, yeah.

[Christine]

Train wreck city.

[M]

Yeah. And I kind of just want to sit in the train wreck for a second. So, I mean, you.

[Christine]

It's a nostalgia, like, you know, I'm very excited.

[M]

So that's the only thing that I really have officially on the docket. And the rest of it, I think, is we're with family, so.

[Christine]

Nice.

[M]

Anyway, I, I. It's. It's next week, but I. It felt like a month, a Month or two or away. And so now I'm like, oh, Usually

[Christine]

I feel like the winter, like, that late winter lasts so long, and it was just suddenly like spring, and I was like, it's almost Easter. Basically.

[M]

Yes. I. I was. I was a little floored. So I'm. I'm a little overwhelmed and I'm about to have to go, like, figure out, like, my travel plans because now I have to figure out dates and all that, but that's what I'm up to. And. And next time I record with you might be. Enjoy. I don't know.

[Christine]

Oh. Ooh la la. I can't wait to see whatever hotel art or hotel.

[M]

Probably a family heirloom. I heard that we're staying with people, so.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh, do it from Snooki's house. Can you imagine? Actually, please.

[M]

Is it insane if we got someone to call the Jersey Shore house for me and be like, can I film a podcast?

[Christine]

Okay. But no, we don't even have to do that. You just have to, like, record like, a bit, like, whatever it is horizontally, then send it to me, and I'll do like, like, pretend you're just talking to me. And then I'll. I'll edit it, splice it, and it'll look like we're recording at the Jersey Shorehouse.

[M]

Well, starting out, I can't believe we're in the Jersey Shorehouse right now. This is crazy.

[Christine]

Well, you have to actually have it on video.

[M]

It'll be green screen, but I don't know. I don't know. I'll mouth you're gonna be.

[Christine]

That's the whole point. I'm so scared green screen myself at the Snooki's house if I wanted to, too.

[M]

I'm so. I'm so stressed out. Okay, you're right. I'm very excited. I'm just overwhelmed.

[Christine]

You should just pretend you're vlogging. You should be like, so I don't know.

[M]

And then I'll also just film, like, some, like, B roll of, like, an empty room so you can put your face on it. And then. And then it's like.

[Christine]

Right. I was going to say that. I'll be like, oh, yeah. Thanks. Okay. Today's episode M is showing me around the Jersey Shore house. And we can kind of pretend, you know, like, it'll be good.

[M]

It'll be a good time. Okay, cool. We'll reenact a Jersey Shore clip.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. I don't know many of those, but I could try.

[M]

You just say, who wrote the note, you twos?

[Christine]

That's what you say, you twos. I can say that for sure.

[M]

Use okay, so anyway, very excited. We'll see everybody next week.

[Christine]

Sounds good.

[M]

And that's why we drink day or night.

[Christine]

VRBO Care is here 24?

[M]

7 to help make every part of your stay seamless.

[Christine]

If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the from the moment you book to the moment you head home, we're here to help things run smoothly because a great trip starts with the right support. And hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.

[M]

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