EP417 Breaking into Wallace and Giving Balloons to Priests

Summary

Episode Summary: EP417 - Breaking into Wallace and Giving Balloons to Priests

And That's Why We Drink hosts Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz delve deep into a mix of personal anecdotes, critical discussions on paranormal phenomena, and a poignant true crime story in this chilling episode titled "Breaking into Wallace and Giving Balloons to Priests," released on February 2, 2025.

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1. Personal Anecdotes and Technical Challenges (00:45 - 03:31)

Christine and Em begin the episode by sharing their experiences with recording environments. Christine discusses the discomfort of recording from bed, emphasizing the need for a more ergonomic setup:

Christine (02:08): "Do you think? Okay, but my fear would be like every time I have to pee or do something I would like it to."

Em contemplates the idea of an egg chair for recording, highlighting the challenges of maintaining comfort without sacrificing posture:

Em (03:14): "That's the key."

They humorously navigate the logistics of recording from unconventional settings, illustrating their camaraderie and the light-hearted side of podcasting despite technical setbacks.

2. Coping Mechanisms and Personal Struggles (06:36 - 12:54)

Christine opens up about her emotional struggles, revealing a difficult month marked by heartbreak and personal challenges unrelated to her marriage:

Christine (06:45): "I'm just having a really hard month, but it's okay... it's not cute. It's very ugly. But it's okay..."

Em expresses pride and support for Christine, acknowledging the weight of her struggles:

Em (09:02): "I am very proud of you."

The conversation shifts to their coping mechanisms, with both hosts discussing alcohol and THC as alternatives:

Christine (31:21): "Replace alcohol with THC gummies... That's why we drink listeners can save 30% off their first order."

This segment highlights their vulnerability and the importance of support systems in navigating personal hardships.

3. Discussion on "Watch Evil" and Exorcism Practices (34:33 - 74:04)

Transitioning from personal topics, Christine and Em dissect an episode from the television show Watch Evil, which dramatizes exorcisms and the investigation of demonic possessions. They critique the portrayal of exorcisms, emphasizing the overlap and tension between mental health and supernatural interventions.

A. The Case of Gina

The hosts analyze a specific case from Watch Evil involving a 16-year-old girl named Gina, whose troubling behavior leads her family and the church to seek an exorcism. Despite her psychiatric evaluations indicating active psychosis, the church maintains that she is possessed.

Christine (34:35): "It's like, how do you know you've broken into the Wallace?"

They critique the procedural aspects of exorcism as depicted in the show, questioning the legitimacy and ethical considerations of performing exorcisms on minors with diagnosed mental health issues. The discussion delves into:

• Selection Criteria for Possession: The show's portrayal of signs like unusual strength, levitation, and speaking unknown languages.

  Em (49:15): "Do you want to take a guess?"

• Team Composition: The mix of priests, a psychiatrist, and a scientist assessing possession claims, which they find both comical and concerning.

  Christine (46:00): "A psychiatrist, priest, and a scientist. And they're basically hired by the archdiocese to assess whether possessions are real or not."

• Ethical Implications: The lack of informed consent, especially concerning minors, and the potential exacerbation of mental health issues through exorcism.

The hosts express skepticism about the efficacy and morality of exorcisms, especially when juxtaposed with professional mental health treatments.

B. Broadcasting Exorcisms and Public Perception

Christine and Em critique the integration of media in performing and broadcasting exorcisms, pondering the impact on public perception and the stigmatization of mental health:

Em (93:51): "With the thirst for sensational invasions... How about live electroshock therapy treatments?"

They argue that such portrayals can trivialize genuine mental health struggles and promote archaic solutions over professional help.

4. True Crime Spotlight: The Disappearance of Brianna Maitland (75:07 - 146:58)

The episode shifts to a heart-wrenching true crime narrative, recounting the disappearance of Brianna Maitland in 2004. Christine provides a detailed account, interspersed with personal reflections and critical analysis.

A. Timeline of Events

1. Initial Incident (March 19, 2004):

   • Brianna completes her high school equivalency exam, symbolizing a new start.
   • Post-breakfast, she abruptly leaves for work, later seen exiting her second job alone around 11:30 PM.
   • Her car is discovered abandoned, backed into a farmhouse with minimal damage, and personal items left inside.

2. Family's Realization and Police Response:

   • Brianna's parents, Kelly and Bruce Maitland, are informed five days later.
   • Initial police assumptions point to possible drunk driving, but inconsistencies raise red flags.
   • Personal belongings and uncashed paychecks hint at a more sinister turn.

3. Search Efforts and Media Involvement:

   • Vigorous search operations commence, involving volunteers and media coverage.
   • Sightings range from plausible to utterly disturbing, including rumors of drug-related foul play.

4. Ongoing Investigation (2024 Update):

   • DNA evidence surfaces, matching Brianna to individuals previously interviewed, but without sufficient evidence to implicate any suspect.
   • The FBI offers a significant reward, intensifying efforts to resolve the case.

B. Critical Analysis and Speculations

Christine and Em scrutinize the police investigation, highlighting missed opportunities and questionable assumptions:

Em (86:07): "It could have been someone she knew from that one experience."

They explore various theories surrounding Brianna's disappearance, ranging from accidental carjacking to deliberate foul play by acquaintances. The hosts emphasize the emotional toll on the family and the broader implications of media involvement in such cases.

C. Emotional Resonance and Host Reflections

The narrative is laced with personal empathy, as the hosts reflect on the pain and frustration experienced by Brianna's family:

Christine (98:41): "It's an unfortunate thing."

They discuss the complexities of seeking closure in unsolved cases and the ethical responsibilities of media coverage in amplifying such tragedies.

5. Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions (147:07 - 147:07)

In the closing moments, Christine and Em encourage listeners to engage with their broader content offerings, transitioning from the heavy topics discussed to lighter, more interactive platforms like their Yappy Hour and social media channels. They emphasize the blend of personal support and investigative storytelling that defines their podcast.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Christine (02:08): "Do you think? Okay, but my fear would be like every time I have to pee or do something I would like it to."
• Em (03:14): "That's the key."
• Christine (06:45): "I'm just having a really hard month, but it's okay... it's not cute. It's very ugly. But it's okay..."
• Em (09:02): "I am very proud of you."
• Christine (31:21): "Replace alcohol with THC gummies... That's why we drink listeners can save 30% off their first order."
• Em (34:35): "It's like, how do you know you've broken into the Wallace?"
• Em (49:15): "Do you want to take a guess?"
• Christine (46:00): "A psychiatrist, priest, and a scientist. And they're basically hired by the archdiocese to assess whether possessions are real or not."
• Em (93:51): "With the thirst for sensational invasions... How about live electroshock therapy treatments?"
• Christine (75:07): "It's an unfortunate thing."

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Insights and Conclusions

This episode of And That's Why We Drink masterfully intertwines personal narratives with critical examinations of paranormal phenomena and true crime. By dissecting media portrayals of exorcisms and delving into the unresolved case of Brianna Maitland, Christine and Em provide listeners with both emotional depth and intellectual stimulation. The hosts balance vulnerability with analytical prowess, making the episode both engaging and thought-provoking.

Listeners unfamiliar with the episode will gain a comprehensive understanding of the discussions surrounding the ethical implications of exorcism practices, the complexities of unsolved disappearance cases, and the personal challenges faced by the hosts. The inclusion of notable quotes with timestamps ensures that key moments are highlighted, enhancing the summary's richness and engagement.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Your little stretch. Big stretch.

[A]

Don't look at my armpits. I haven't shaved in a long time.

[B]

No, I'm getting over there.

[A]

No zooms. No zooms allowed. Hello everyone. I'm in my pajamas trying to show you my armpits.

[B]

Are you back in bed or are you on your couch? You're on your couch.

[A]

This time I had to go to my couch in my studio and by.

[B]

Studio I'm recording an episode.

[A]

Really messy.

[B]

After recording an episode in bed, what are your thoughts? Did you enjoy it? What are the pros and cons?

[A]

This is so much easier.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It really seemed like such a delightful idea. I think, I think, think I need to find the in between. Which I think is like getting a comfier seating arrangement that feels more natural. I just like I sit here, my back hurts. It's just not really the most like.

[B]

I know what you mean. I'm literally. By the way, this is like shipwreck. It's like a.

[A]

Behind you. Yeah.

[B]

A wall. Wall. Yeah. I'm in my breakfast nook until further notice.

[A]

So. See, it's like you think like, oh well, I'll just sit here. But then it's like three hours later you're like, oh God. And so I thought laying down would help. It didn't. Laying down for three hours and trying it prop something up actually gave me like worse headache than anything else.

[B]

Oh, so I'm back. You know. You know what? I would, I would love like an egg chair to sit in with you.

[A]

Do you think? Okay, but my fear would be like every time I have to pee or do something I would like, it would.

[B]

Be like, yeah, it would suck. You have to commit to the sitting down situation for sure. But once you're in, you're in Made in the shade. Maybe have Blaze come over and tuck you in with a blanket, you know?

[A]

Okay, so like one of those where you have. Okay. I don't really ever use an Egg chair is that different from the kind that you balance? Like the old wicker ones we had on our porch?

[B]

In my mind, that is an egg chair.

[A]

That is an egg chair.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In my mind, an egg chair is those retro ones where you, like, pull the COVID down. Am I crazy?

[B]

Cover down?

[A]

Yeah, like at ikea, they have them. Hold on. Like those. Those mod chairs that look like little eggs. I say a picture because I think I'm. I think I'm Maybe there.

[B]

Maybe egg chair is like a category. It might be different size. Like, there's. It's one family.

[A]

This is what I think of this red and white thing.

[B]

Yeah. I would say that's also an egg chair. Right.

[A]

But like, that looks cozy. Like one of these, like, hanging situations.

[B]

You know what I. You know what I want desperately, Christine, is one of the. The hanging, swinging egg chairs.

[A]

No, I know.

[B]

That's. That's it.

[A]

That's the key.

[B]

But talk about getting out of something. I would be going a million times.

[A]

So I got one of those. It wasn't an egg chair, but it's like a hanging chair for our balcony. And we have yet to set it up, but maybe once that's set up, I can just sit outside. What could go wrong?

[B]

Talk about the ambient sounds. I would hear you and your little bird buddy or whatever.

[A]

Oh, it is. Next to the bird buddy is where it's going. So, yeah, I'd be just bird watching with you all. And I mean, what could go wrong? Except that currently. Let me check. 13 degrees out. I think maybe not today.

[B]

And every dog. You know any. Yeah. Also, I personally have reservations, I guess, about a hanging piece of wicker holding my body weight.

[A]

You do, huh? I wonder why. Yeah, me too. I think that subconsciously there's a reason I got that two years ago and still haven't hung it up. I think I'm a little bit afraid. Yeah?

[B]

Yeah. I think, like. I know, like there's a chain eventually, but there's other things before the chain and I'm going down.

[A]

There's a chair for sure. There's a chain reaction also when you're. When gravity combines. Yeah. How did it feel for you versus this normal experience for me to sit here versus in an bed? You like the bed part?

[B]

I like any time that you're engaged, whether or not a double chin's involved. Because. Except here's the thing, though, again, you didn't even have a fucking double chin. So actually, no, I was more mad at you when you were lying in bed.

[A]

That's very Kind. I definitely did. I think probably part of the exhaustion afterward was from all the strength it took to not show my double chin the entire three hour long period. I think if I had fully just been laying like I was watching Call the Midwife or something, you would have seen a different angle. But thank you.

[B]

I really, I wanted to see, like, frazzled Christine. Like, like you said, like, oh, I'm recording from bed. But you clearly gotten out of bed, spruced up, and then got back in bed. I want to see like the nitty gritty fugly Christine out of.

[A]

That's a really big the egg state.

[B]

It's a tall order. For you, not for me. I think it'd be funny. Maybe we should do that. Maybe one day we should do like. Remember during lockdown we had like. And that's why I drink from our couch. We should have locked down from our beds. And it's like right after we wake up, we're so groggy. Like, let's just see how much information we can pull out of ourselves. We should just start experimenting. Spice it up.

[A]

Okay. I mean, listen, I'm. I'm 100 in. If it involves me not moving my body, that's fine. I'm in. I'm in 100%.

[B]

It'd be a lot of raspy, like, let me roll over.

[A]

It would be a lot of. Oh, wait, I have to pee. Oh, wait, I have to take my Zoloft. Oh, wait, I've taken my head off. Oh, wait, I forgot my water. Oh, wait, I forgot my pants. Yeah, it would be a lot of just like, you know, maybe we'll do a Patreon for those who, who are just destined to take whatever content we throw at them, and it's usually really a mess. And they. They seem to. They seem to like it. Okay.

[B]

I do think at some point you and I should at least have some sort of like a live stream or something where you and I are FaceTiming. But it's like a spooky sleepover. I feel like we've talked about that in the past.

[A]

Oh, yes, let's.

[B]

But I think that'd be fun.

[A]

We could do like a Valentine's Day one. I was trying to think of what holidays are coming up.

[B]

That's romantic.

[A]

I know. In bed.

[B]

Let's make a Scorpio. Okay, Christine, I gotta ask. Why do you drink this week?

[A]

Thank you for asking. You know, you know when you're just like, really heartbroken?

[B]

What happened? Oh, why?

[A]

I'm just having a really hard month, but it's okay. It's just like, you know when you're really heartbroken about something and then you just have to keep going and the world just keeps spinning and it's fine, but you just keep having reminders. And I'm not divorced, everybody, I promise. It's not about Blaze. It's about a different person that I was close with that I've had a. Had an interesting experience with in the last couple months. You know that thing when people say, hey, set boundaries? And I said, that seems like a good idea. And then my therapist said, I just want to warn you, when you set boundaries, some people don't like it. And they. They really fight. And I said, what are you talking about? And then I've learned what that meant in the past couple months in a variety. Yeah, it's not cute. It's very ugly. It's very hurtful. But it's okay. If anyone's felt like I've been off maybe in my bed for some reason or just like a little too the wall or a little too.

[B]

Christine and her single chin are just a little frazzled these days.

[A]

Oh, no, you froze. I'm sorry, what'd you say?

[B]

Oh, do you want me to say your single chin again? You want me to talk about that?

[A]

I didn't hear you say that.

[B]

Yes, I do want if from the bed. You and your single chin are a little frazzled sometimes.

[A]

One tear down my very, very chiseled jawline. You know, if you ever caught any of that. No, but seriously, I think it's a tough time for everybody post holidays New Year. Hey, today's Inauguration Day slash MLK Jr. Day. And Leona said, what' that? And I said, talk to your father. Yeah, not today. I did. I did tell her all about Martin Luther King Jr. And then I said, now, when you talk about this in school, pay attention. But don't. But I don't want to talk about inauguration right now. You'll learn about MLK soon enough. But right now, I can't think straight. So it's just one of those, you know, days where I'm like, wow, everything just hurts in my soul and heart and body. But I am really, really grateful to be here. And I'm really grateful that my boundaries are working despite the fact that they suck. Thank. You know, I'm very.

[B]

I'm also very, very proud of you. The fuck is going on?

[A]

I know.

[B]

Something just happened behind me. Of course. You know, it interestingly keeps freezing as I'm complimenting you.

[A]

Wait, no way. The computer's like cannot compute, cannot translate into zeros and ones.

[B]

I was saying I'm very proud of you because I. I don't know everything that's going on, but I know some of what's going on and I've been there and it's not. Not fun.

[A]

You've been there? You haven't been to my particular abbey in the road? That's not a word particular. Just because it's so absurd that it sounds like I have invented it in the most fictional half ass way possible that nobody would ever believe. It's so bananas that it sounds like. Just wait for my memoir someday, guys, okay? I. Nobody really cares about my life. I know. I mean, I know you care about my life. No. One day I want to write a memoir just to get all this out of my head. So maybe if you're really interested, someday it'll come out there. But for now, just know that, you know, things are turbulent. But, yes, thank you very much. That's very kind. And I know you've had very similar parallel experiences.

[B]

I am going to exercise my privilege in knowing you. I won't be waiting for the memoir. I will just text you.

[A]

Oh, well, you're the only one who hasn't heard the story. I mean, I'm telling you, I have told this now to three people. And the only thing, really, that's the light in the light. The silver lining here is the faces of the people who, to whom I tell the story are like, wait, what? And I'm like, oh, that's not even the half of it. And then I get to say like the next plot twist. And then everyone.

[B]

That's always fun. Holy shit.

[A]

And I go, I know, right?

[B]

With every curse, there's a gift. And even if the gift is something as slim and tiny as like, oh, but the expressions on people's face and I get to tell them is kind of priceless, you know?

[A]

Right.

[B]

You gotta take your blessings. I'm excited to jaw drop for you with my double jaw.

[A]

Yeah, just call me later. It's your double jaw. I'm really excited to give you triple jaw, triple chin. That's how far your chin's gonna go down.

[B]

Well, it'll just be below the floor. Yeah.

[A]

Underneath.

[B]

I am very, very. I'm very proud of you.

[A]

Thank you, Emma. That's very nice.

[B]

I don't. I don't have to know the details to know, like, what the. The grand gist of it all is. And it. I am very proud of you also. Good luck to you explaining. Well, I guess you don't really have to explain the inauguration to Leona because she will read about it in a book one day.

[A]

She's living it, you know? She's living. She's living history.

[B]

I. Oh. I never even asked what you drink.

[A]

Oh, you keep freezing. Well, it's been 48 hours, and I am back in my bed. So I. I left and I said, I'm never going back. And then our Internet went out, and now we're back in. I'm back in bed. I gave up on my lofty dreams, but I think it's set up better. I don't know. I have a new microphone. The one that you bought. The. The USB mic, the mini one. Mmm. See? Let me show you. Yeah, I mean, I just plugged it in for the first time. We'll see how many complaints we got.

[B]

You sound beautiful. You sound like you're in high definition.

[A]

I am.

[B]

Yeah. We decided that we were going to get matching tiny mics, and my purpose was. So when I'm out traveling, if I end up really liking a place and I don't want to leave my adventures. But we still have to record. I am now bringing a microphone with me from hotel to hotel, just in case.

[A]

I mean, that was my plan, too. But very quickly, my priorities changed, and now it's become the microphone I use in bed. So.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. You know, it's like things change. People change. I just. You know, I just start. I start. What's the word? Decaying. What's the word for. Like, it starts rot. Rot. But, like, when it starts to fall apart, disintegrate. That's what's happening.

[B]

Beautiful. Well, I think for a disintegrating lady, you look dazzling.

[A]

Thank you so much. I'm dazzling and disintegrating. It's like the weirdest oxymoron ever. M. It was. It was. It was excruciating. I told you why I drank this week two days ago. And then before I could hear your reason, everything went to shit, and I couldn't hear you at all. So I would love to hear the reason you drink and continue this half of the intro. Our poor team is like, I'm so sick of these idiots. We're like, hey, we recorded 15. Well, we recorded for, like, an hour and a half, but we only have 15 minutes of content to show for it. We'll do the rest later this week. You'll find it eventually.

[B]

Everyone, take a sip of whatever you're drinking. For Jack, our editor, because he really does have to just put up with a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You would think that we're professionals by now, but the only reason we got this gig is because everyone liked what bumbling idiots we are. And we've kept it going. Yeah.

[A]

And you might be thinking, oh, well, now they're just. They're just putting it on for show. I wish that were the case. Wouldn't that be fun if we could.

[B]

People don't change that much. Yeah.

[A]

Couldn't we pretend to be dumb at recording? That would be a lot easier for me. But no, alas.

[B]

Thank you for asking. One, I drink because I have given up hope on anything WI fi of this house that I bought. You think if you buy a house in Los Angeles, a wifi would be fine? That would be part of the gig.

[A]

I didn't think that, but that's because I moved far away. Cause I was like, I don't know what's going on in this town, but things are looking wonky.

[B]

Yeah. So we do it old school here now with an Ethernet cable, because there's just no other option at this point. So I drink because I've had to bring dial up back to the game. But also, that's not quite how it works. But yes. Yes, it feels like it. When I literally have to plug the computer in.

[A]

It just means it's a desktop now.

[B]

That's a good point. And then what else? Oh, I drink. Two reasons. One, because I was out with Allison this weekend, and we ran into a couple who recognized me. And they. I think their names. Oh, God. If you're listening, I'm so sorry. I think their names are Kathy and Raphael. They said, hi, it's you. And then they said, we met because of the show. I thought it was so sweet that they. I guess they. They met at one of our live shows.

[A]

What? That's adorable.

[B]

I know. And so anyway, that. That's why I drink. That really got me in the right mood, despite all the things that got me in a bad mood this fucking week.

[A]

This is a rough week, man.

[B]

I mean, I drink for all those reasons, too. TikTok resurrecting into some weird, uncanny Valley version of itself.

[A]

I can't stand it. I. I went on there that first day. I was like, let me see what's going on in here. And I was like, this is like fucking Mad Max. But we're pretending it's not Mad Max. Like, it's like. Yeah, it's like the facade of TikTok on top of, like, just complete.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

And then on top of that, we Are recording this just after the inauguration speech. And that crazy hand gesture someone made.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, everyone's saying he's just so awkward. He's just one of us, you know?

[B]

Isn't it funny? Yeah.

[A]

Funny how relatable Elon Musk is. That's what I always say about him. I'm like, I feel like I could borrow. And I've always said, buy a wrench from you. Except I don't know what that is, and I'm sure he doesn't either.

[B]

You know how he would hand the wrench to you? At least that.

[A]

Yeah, at least. I know. I know a thing or two.

[B]

So we're dealing with that over here. That's the other negative reason I drink. The positive and most apropos reason why I drink Christine, though, I've been waiting to tell you literally for like a week and a half now. What? I controlled a dream. Like, shut the fuck up.

[A]

Okay, hold on. Whoa. Oh, sweat everywhere. Okay, hold on. Wow. I. Okay. Who. Last week you told me you had a tattoo. I mean, what's happening?

[B]

I'm just becoming you. I'm trying to.

[A]

I'm just like. I feel like I can't keep up with all the, like, the life changes that are happening for you right now.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

You're welcome.

[B]

I will say, a bad reason I drink is because ever since that day, I have chased the high and can't do it again.

[A]

Why do you think I have books and journals and rip my hair out and follow YouTube channels? I mean, it's just like, all you think about. Tell me everything, please.

[B]

Okay, so one of the things that I think helped, which there was no controlling this, I don't think.

[A]

Yeah, just random.

[B]

But often in my dreams, I have, like, regular locations. You know how, like, on. On, like, friends, there was always Central Park.

[A]

A set. A set. Yes.

[B]

So I have a regular set, which. Yikes. Tell me if my work is affecting me or not. My regular set in my sleep is the Burbank Airport.

[A]

Oh, that's a good one.

[B]

And so, like, a good.

[A]

Like one to remember.

[B]

Anyone can walk through. Walk by.

[A]

Now, here's what you have to do. Em. When you're at the Burbank Airport, like, for tour, you have to check every time you go in if you're dreaming, even though if you know you're not, because in your dream, you'll also know you're not.

[B]

Muscle memory. Yeah.

[A]

And so you gotta just do it every time you go in. And that way. Because mine is my high school or my middle School?

[B]

Yeah, you can't get back there.

[A]

So every time I'm in, like, my middle school hallway, I'm like, no, I'm not supposed to be here. So, yeah, that's good, though. The airport.

[B]

So, yeah, so it's the airport. And often that's where dreams that Eva is in appear. Because that makes sense. Her and I are in the airport a lot together. But I was having a dream that I was in a Starbucks and I was at a speed dating event, and.

[A]

Oh, intriguing.

[B]

And in that moment, something felt weird when I was mid conversation with somebody, and I. But the weird part was, like, I turn and, like, look over to the other side of the coffee shop in Burbank Airport, and Allison's walking by, and I. I didn't have the moment of, like, oh, I'm cheating. I had a moment where I thought, like, I wonder how she'd feel about this.

[A]

And that's when you. Oh, my God.

[B]

And so that made me think, like, why am I speed dating right now?

[A]

No way. That's quite a complex, like, thought process. I'm usually just like, well, hey, that's not a real dog.

[B]

Well, also, it's like. It's interesting because the thing that had disturbed me, if I saw Eva there, I probably wouldn't have even thought.

[A]

No.

[B]

Anything. Because she walks through the airport every.

[A]

Time you see me. Even now, you're gonna be like, am I speed dating?

[B]

What's happening?

[A]

Am I speed dating? Call Allison.

[B]

But I think it's, like, sad in some ways because it shows how little I travel with Allison. But her seeing her in the airport was like, hell.

[A]

She traveling, uncanny.

[B]

I was like, this should rock me from.

[A]

You don't belong here.

[B]

So I remember thinking, like, why? Where is she going in an airport without me? But I'm also at the airport. That's weird. And I remember having this moment of being like, am I supposed to like, what's going on? Anyway, so from there, I was like, that feels as wild as a dream. And then I went, am I dreaming?

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Wow.

[B]

And then. And then I went, I think I'm dreaming. And then I remembered in my dream the thing to do, the finger thing.

[A]

Yay.

[B]

Yay.

[A]

Oh, so happy right now.

[B]

But I. I didn't do the finger. I put my hand. I saw a wall. And I was like, I'm trying to put my hand through that. And so my hand went through the wall, and I went, oh, shit, this is a dream. And then I went, I'm gonna throw my whole body into the Wall. Yes.

[A]

That's what you do. Just fucking impulsive decision making.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Dangerous.

[B]

I thought. In. In. I'm staring at the wall in my dream, and I remember thinking, this could really hurt. And I was like. And I was like, but if I'm dreaming, it's gonna be fine. And so we'll just see how it goes. And I just ran into the wall, and all of a sudden I was like, in another world. It was very cool.

[A]

So.

[B]

And then I kept controlling the dream for what felt like an hour, but it was a lot of. But I kept sticking my hand in things all the way through.

[A]

That's what you do. That's what you do to ground yourself. Wow, Em, you are a champion. I knew you'd be good at this. I knew it. Ever since you told me you don't have lucid dreams, I was like, you. There's something about you. It's gonna happen. It's gonna click.

[B]

I remember at one point there was. I even found, like, a. I don't know, I stuck my hand through, like, paint. And I remember seeing the. A lot, like, the paint dripping off my. Like, the elasticity. And I, like. It was like, almost dried paint, so it was kind of stretchy up from the other side. Yeah.

[A]

Isn't that remarkable?

[B]

And I was like, wow. Like. Like my whole hand can go through this. Yeah. And then at one point, someone walked by, and I remember always hearing on, like, tech talk and everything. May she rest in peace. That. That. You're never supposed to ask someone, like, their age or why they're there, because, like, you might be. I always. And maybe that was something I should have listened to, but instead I went over to him and I went, how old are you? Or am I dead? Or I said something, some crazy that they get weird. And he looked at me and he paused, and we both, at the same time went like, you shouldn't have said, wait.

[A]

That's hysterical. Your brain is amazing.

[B]

I. And then I remember thinking, like, I. I don't know. I was able to control a few things. And the whole time I was like, wow, this is really cool. This is a dream. Like, I was very aware the whole time.

[A]

That's amazing. Especially for your first one to be that, like, intense. Because the first time I realized it, I was like, oh, my God. And then I woke up and I was like, mother, yeah, ever. But, yeah, it's the grounding, like, where you're, like, about to slip out of it and go back into dreaming. And you're like, no, you have to, like, make your consciousness present, which is so hard when you're just distracted by everything. And that is. Wait, so when you went through the wall, what was on the other side?

[B]

Oh, okay. So I think there was a time shift because. Okay, so early context is I. Not that I've been. Well, I guess I've been trying to lucid dream just because you can do it. And I was like, well, maybe I can give it a shot. I didn't mean to make it a lucid dream thing. It was just a way that I was meditating at night to, like, fall asleep.

[A]

Oh, that'll do it. Your hypnagogic state.

[B]

And so I call it breaking into Wallace, which is so stupid.

[A]

Excuse me.

[B]

Breaking into Wallace. Because at some point, I had a dream where I remembered very vividly going into another world. And the only way I did it was by punching through a wall. And I named the wall Wallace for some reason. No. And so now I'm like, okay, as I'm falling asleep, just try to break through the wall. And so I literally just meditate on, like, punching a wall until it becomes a different texture, and then I can get through, like, climb into the wa. God.

[A]

So you, like, basically walk yourself into a dream?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's amazing. That's what. See, that's one of the biggest techniques that they say to do. If you wake up in the middle of the night, it's so much easier to like, just drift right back into a dream. And so if you stay conscious enough as you fall back asleep, you can almost, like, walk back into your dream. And it sounds like you're doing that, but from weakness, which is, like, really hard to do.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And you're like a fucking prodigy, so.

[B]

Well, thank you. Well, so walking. When I ran into the wall, I feel like I accidentally went backwards because I. I think because wall and wall. I. When I tried to dive into the wall and see if my body would go through it, it was like breaking into Wallace. Breaking into Wallace.

[A]

Okay, wait, sorry. Now am I now? I said I'm dreaming because this sounds so insane that I'm like, wait a minute, maybe I'm inventing this. It feels like something I'm gonna tell em on the podcast. Like, I had the weirdest dream that you named a wall Wallace.

[B]

I did. And break. And I break into it every night to get into my dream state.

[A]

And I love that because that's what I did when I. Because I kept putting my finger through my hand, and it wasn't working. And I was like, oh, this dream's trying to fool me. Like, it's trying to. Because my finger wouldn't go through. And I was like, I know this is a dream. So I was like. I looked around, there was a brick wall, and I was like, fine, watch me put my hand through it. And I put my whole hand through it. And that's when I, like, realized I was lucid dreaming. So I did that same fucking thing. Yeah, maybe that's the key. Everybody.

[B]

I pretty much like. I kind of do this move a lot with Wallace, until all of a sudden I noticed like. Like the st. Like a putty. And then I just remind me of that.

[A]

Like, American Horror Story. Like latex.

[B]

Like that kind of. But I think more like, like, Like. Like sensory dope.

[A]

Yeah, I get that.

[B]

And then I just kind of climb in once the Wallace starts.

[A]

Feel your way into a new world. Wait, so when you. When you said, so, what does breaking through Wallace mean? Does that mean you fall asleep or does that mean you.

[B]

That means I've. I've. I'm in the main frame. I've broken through. I've, like, crawled enough in that I'm now in the dream. Like, I'm now, like, in a dream state.

[A]

Wait, so have you been lucid dreaming this whole time? When you do that?

[B]

If that's lucid dreaming, then yeah, I guess.

[A]

I don't know. But, like, how do you know you've broken into the Wallace?

[B]

I'm. I'm asleep. Usually I've been dreaming. I've been actively dreaming, but it's. It seems to be something where, like, I sit there and meditate and. Until the point of being asleep, and I don't know if it's. I don't know. I'm already such an active dreamer that I don't know if I'm doing anything by trying to start off in a dream as soon as I fall asleep. But anyway, I just. I've been calling it breaking into Wallace as a term of like. Okay, close your eyes. Like, try to go to bed. Just break into walls. Try to start dreaming. And then it.

[A]

Wow. And that's just when you first go to bed.

[B]

Yeah, that's how I.

[A]

Taking notes for tonight.

[B]

It's just how I. I just try to fall asleep by getting myself into a dream to. Maybe that's why I have such a hard time falling asleep, because I'm doing two things at once.

[A]

Yeah, you might. Because you're working, dear. Do you. When you dream. Oh, sorry. When you fall asleep asleep. What was I going to ask you? Is it because Like, I have just insomnia. Like, I'll just lay there for hours. Do you have a very, like, vivid and tactile imagination? Is that, like, how you're able to, like, do the pulling through the wall and does it.

[B]

I guess so, yeah.

[A]

Are your eyes closed and you, like. You, like, feel it, right? Like, you imagine it. Okay, interesting.

[B]

Pretend I'm truly there.

[A]

Wow. You're maybe, like, sending up a new technique. I don't know.

[B]

A new. A new method?

[A]

Yeah, new method.

[B]

But anyway, so I just. I just. I've always just thought it was just meditating. I didn't know it might be actively trying to entertain, too.

[A]

Yeah. That's so cool.

[B]

Thank you. Well, so anyway, it worked, and all of a sudden I was at the airport. Oh. Honestly, I have fucked myself up with it because even just talking about it, I got really tired, so. Oh, I see.

[A]

It makes you sleepy.

[B]

It's like. Oh, now I think about. Because also, like, what's more tiring than trying to break through a wall with your bare hands? You know?

[A]

I mean, honestly, that's really. I wonder if tonight maybe you and my both. I'll text you. Well, you go to bed late and I go to bed late. But not as late because you're three hours ahead.

[B]

We get a second in another realm together.

[A]

Okay, so I'll just say, like, I'll break through Wallace now, and then you find where I broke through Wallace and you come join me later when you come to bed, and maybe then we'll both be like, behind the wall. Over the Wallace together.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I don't know either. I just. It's something I just say in my head, obviously. Why would I say that publicly? Like, I am right now. I sound like a crazy person.

[A]

Don't worry, I won't tell anyone. Actively makes perfect sense to my brain. So I'm like. That's why I thought I was dreaming. I was like, this sounds like something I would make up. And then it's not. So.

[B]

I do remember naming the wall Wallace. In a dream.

[A]

In a dream. See, that's amazing.

[B]

And I remember in the dream thinking, now that's comedy.

[A]

Now that's gold. That's like the time that you dreamed that you invented the names.

[B]

Oh, Lydia Chlamydia and Leah. Gonorrhea.

[A]

Yeah, like your brain. This is what I'm saying. It's a palette. It's a. It's a dazzling palace. I feel that you don't give it enough credit. And I also feel that. That I Knew. I knew someday this lucid dreaming would, like, kick in for you. And I knew you'd love it because, I mean, you literally can create a world. Like, it's like VR, but I feel.

[B]

I'm chasing that high.

[A]

Yeah. It's unbelievable because I also.

[B]

When I'm. When I'm trying to get sleepy, I've done the thing I've told you before where I pretend I'm Iron man and flying.

[A]

I do that too sometimes. And it actually is calming. I've tried that.

[B]

It's very calming. But it doesn't make me sleepy. I think because I've done too much that my brain now goes, I know this game that's not gonna work.

[A]

It's like, we'll just do it on loop.

[B]

Yeah. So I had to come up with a new tactic, which is the breaking into Wallace.

[A]

When. How long have you been doing that?

[B]

Like a couple months.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Not one month. One month. Yeah. It works. Seems to work. It worked that one time. I just keep waiting for it to happen again. So anyway, that's why I drank, because I have first crack out of the box. I just. Okay, I guess I'll lose a drink.

[A]

I feel like now whenever we see a wall, we just need to like, put our.

[B]

There's a lot of walls.

[A]

Oh, man, they're everywhere, these walls. Who knew?

[B]

Have you ever seen that? People ask the question, like, what do you think there's more of? Doors. Was it doors or wheels or something? Oh, yeah.

[A]

It's fucking annoying. It's like when you're trying to work for Google or somewhere really smart.

[B]

It feels like something Xandy would have an immediate answer to.

[A]

I'm sure he knows it already.

[B]

Yeah, it's the same thing with walls. You don't realize how many walls are.

[A]

It's just for fun.

[B]

Yeah. Talk about joining us in the neurodivergent world. Because I feel like him and I into a. It would actually be very long. I could see it being a very good, sober, in depth conversation. And I could see it being a really, like, knockout drunk fight also.

[A]

Oh. Like ding, ding, ding.

[B]

That's why I like it. Because then.

[A]

No.

[B]

No matter what situation you're in, it's a good conversation.

[A]

Spicy. Either way.

[B]

Anyway, all that to say. I've been waiting like three days, two day. I don't know how long I did these. These notes and I was so jazzed about them. And then my Internet went out and I was so upset because I worked really, really hard on these notes.

[A]

It's not going to be in the episode, I don't think, because I'm sure we. I mean, I don't know, maybe we didn't, but I think we stopped recording. But as we were like deciding to cut it short, Em was like, dang it. Like, basically like hit their fist on the counter. Like, darn it. My story was really good.

[B]

Christy.

[A]

Wow. I'm just like, actually really disappointed. So I'm, I'm. I've been waiting on tenderhooks.

[B]

I. Thank you. I'm very, I'm very excited. And by the way, I drink this week two London Fogs from that shop nearby that knows me by name just by my Uber Eats order because they always write something on the cups. So yesterday it said, and that's why we drink all over the cups, because I'm ordering a London Fog and like three of them at a time. So who else could be.

[A]

Next time it should say, are you dreaming? And then every time, you know, if.

[B]

They'Re listening, maybe the cup next time will say, you've broken into Wallace.

[A]

My name is Wallace. Or no, they'll send you an extra. They'll send you an Americana and be like, this is for Wallace.

[B]

You've put it through a lot. I sure have. Anyway, this one comes with like a cold foam. It's the most delicious cold foam I've ever had in my life. But I just got it all over my hand. So that's why I'm like licking my fingers like a monster.

[A]

Okay, well, I'm actively moving around and trying to be so quiet. So I'm sorry, everybody has to decide either to listen to me moving around or I'm licking their fingers. I can't decide which is worse.

[B]

Oh man, it's such a. It's such a good drink. I wish you were here to try it.

[A]

It's a new year and it feels nice to develop a new self care routine. Just switch things up a little bit. I don't know if that's like massages, manicures, aromatherapy. Just more naps during the day. That's when I always recommend.

[B]

I love more naps during the day.

[A]

It's always a good one. So if there's something hard things for you to stick to, don't worry, you're not alone. But there is one change that you can do that's effortless and will transform your self care for good.

[B]

Yeah. That change is upgrading your sleep with the softest 100% organic cotton sheets from bowl and Branch. Which we just said that naps are becoming more and more of our sleep care routine. So this is right up our alley.

[A]

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[B]

Also, Boland Branch is actively supporting those impacted by the Southern California wildfires with donations options of bedding essentials like sheets, blankets, and pillows.

[A]

If you or someone you know needs additional support right now, apply to their Helping from home [e-mail] helpingfromhome.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

I recently decided that I was going to hunker down and look at my phone and go through all my subscriptions. Yikes. Yeah, well, yikes is all I can say.

[A]

I should have. I. I tried to warn you. It's so sinister. And that's why Rocket Money is like, seriously the hero to come. Save the day from these big companies where you're just like, shelling out money and not even realizing it.

[B]

Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

[A]

So the best part to me is that Rocket Money can also cancel your subscriptions. So, like, you don't even need to go log in and find, forget password and all that. They literally do it.

[B]

Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features.

[A]

Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket money. Go to rocketmoney.com drop drink today. That's rocketmoney.com drink rocketmoney.com drink okay.

[B]

And by a lot of hard work, I gotta be honest, this one was a very easy topic to do because there was no information I couldn't get from the televised version of this.

[A]

Oh, I love when that happens.

[B]

And so this is pretty much a play for play on something that was televised a long time ago. But I don't care. It's still interesting. And how did I not know about it until until now?

[A]

Yeah, I don't have time to watch a televised thing unless it's Thousand pound Sisters or whatever it's called.

[B]

You love them.

[A]

I do. And American Primeval, which Is so scary.

[B]

I don't know what that is.

[A]

Oh, my God. It's that new Western. And, like, I watch. God, I'm watching Godless again. Have you seen Godless?

[B]

Didn't know it was a thing.

[A]

It's so good. Have you seen Westworld?

[B]

I have worked on Westworlds. I don't get to say that anymore. No, I haven't watched it. I have not watched it.

[A]

Well, I gotta say, it's. It's about the Wild west, and it's about the trials and tribulations of pioneers going west, Mormons going west, and the tribes that are out there and they're, you know, teaming up with certain groups, and there's some outlaws and. Oh, my gosh, it is so gruesome and scary and, like, alarming that I have to watch the Office super fan episodes at night just to, like, undo a lot of the fear of these, like, shootouts and stuff. Anyway, so I'm gonna get cozy, get snuggly.

[B]

Yeah. So this is.

[A]

Well, look at my Western little lap thing. My little lap desk is cowboy.

[B]

She's always with you. Maybe. Have you broken into Wallace? Why are the. Why is there Western stuff already showing up now? That's weird.

[A]

Oh, my God, I love that. My brain's like, all right, let's go to the fucking Wild West. She never wants to go anywhere else.

[B]

Okay, this is the possession of Gina.

[A]

Possession of Gina. Just Gina.

[B]

Just Gina.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Just a simple girl like you and.

[A]

Me I doubt it. Somehow I doubt it.

[B]

So let me see. How did I write this? I wrote these notes with a plan to, like, have a certain cadence. And now that it's been two days.

[A]

I think I am Vic Pentameter.

[B]

Can you imagine?

[A]

Honestly, that'd be so impressive if the.

[B]

Whole poem was just a haiku.

[A]

We could just tell, like, the AI, The Chat DVD or whatever. Like, can you put this in my notes? And I am big. I wonder if it could do that.

[B]

That'd be funny. We should do, like, how I met your mother, the rhyming episode.

[A]

That was. That was classic.

[B]

Talk about a scripted episode, though, because we would. We couldn't. We couldn't around the way that we do unless we're really good at.

[A]

I'm looking at you.

[B]

See, now I'm scared. Okay, here we go. Abc, through the. Hang on, let me. Hang on. Let me just read this.

[A]

Let me sing the Alphabet real quick. What's happening, abc?

[B]

See, it's arrived.

[A]

Check one, check one. What's happening?

[B]

Oh, okay. I obviously messed up.

[A]

Did you write like the ABCs of something. Like the ABCs of time travel.

[B]

No, I talk about ABC like the news report.

[A]

Okay. I thought you were like, oh, this is another intro class. The ABCs of ABC.

[B]

I should have put. I. I know what I should have put, and I just it up. Okay. According to ABC, that's what I should have put. Through the 20th century, as people learn more about mental health, obviously we know that the blaming of, like, possession and exorcism all declined. Yes. Do you know when it was reignited? Satanic panic. Okay, that was. That's a good one. Apparently, satanic panic stems from in 1973 when the Exorcist came out, and that just, like, rejuvenated everyone's fears, which sounds like we were on our way to paying attention to psychology. And then the extras came out, and then everyone went. Never mind. Demons again.

[A]

Damn it.

[B]

So our story today is in 1991, which again, satanic panic. Thank you for mentioning that.

[A]

It's a great year. That's. That's the year that everything changed.

[B]

The ultimate demon was born. Yes. So the story's in 1991, a year before that, a Gallup poll came out asking people about superstitions. And 55% of surveyors believed in the devil in the country. How many? 55%. More than half Americans that at least took this survey believed in the devil. 49%, which I'm just gonna call half, believe that. But people are sometimes possessed by the devil.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And that was in the 90s. Wasn't that far away. Yeah. I wonder what the number would be today.

[A]

Oh, you don't know now?

[B]

No. We should look it up here.

[A]

What is it?

[B]

Gallup believe in. Yeah, a Gallup poll. Believing in the devil and then believing in possession.

[A]

Oh, here we go. On from 2023, Gallup news. Belief in five spiritual entities edges down to new lows.

[B]

Well, thank you.

[A]

Okay, 74. Believe in God. 69 in angels. 67 in heaven. 59. Oh, 58. The devil. What?

[B]

It's gotten worse. How is.

[A]

Well, belief greatest among frequent churchgoers, Protestants and Republicans.

[B]

Oh, well, okay. Yeah.

[A]

Nearly three in ten do not believe in hell or the devil. Okay, so I guess this is just like.

[B]

Like, girl, you're. Oh, no.

[A]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[B]

You're good, though. You're good.

[A]

Israel.

[B]

No, that it worked perfectly as we were in disbelief that people have somehow increased their beliefs.

[A]

Yeah. So apparently a high of 74 to 59%. Wow. Okay, so it's gone down because here it says that 90% of Americans in 2001 believed in God. God 90 and now it's 74. So that's the same.

[B]

Wow, that's interesting that there's a big drop in believing in God, but believing in the devil.

[A]

That's hilarious. I mean, I don't know because it's not that surprising. Well, I also think about 68 in 2001 and 58 now. Sorry.

[B]

I do think, I mean, I guess I fall into that category because I'm pretty staunchly at least agnostic, if not atheists. But I also believe in like spirits and.

[A]

Yeah, you can't be that atheist. Demons you believe in and like coming back to earth and stuff.

[B]

Yeah, so I guess that does make sense.

[A]

Beliefs.

[B]

Maybe I, because I have spiritual beliefs like this the thing of like I'm spiritual but not religious. So maybe that kind of ignixes God situation and keeps everything else.

[A]

Yeah, but I think a lot of people say like, oh God or whoever, whatever it is to you. You know what I mean? People are kind of vague about that. I mean, probably not the 58% or whatever.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Look at us learning things together. So one of the reasons in the 90s why that number might have been influenced of like people more than half of Americans believing this. One of the reasons it might have been a big deal is because that year that the Gallup poll was taken, there was an announcement made by Cardinal John O'Connor that said that exorcisms, thus demons are real, have been kept hidden and are still. The exorcisms are still being used to this day.

[A]

What do you mean they're kept hidden? There's literally a blockbuster called the Exorcist. I don't think they're that secretive, but.

[B]

Hidden from reality or hidden from the public as, as true fact. So okay, so Cardinal O'Connor, he also stated that not only are these things real and not just made up in movies, but quite recently we just performed two exorcisms in New York alone where I in charge brag, I author. I know, quit bragging. I authorized these two exorcisms and one of them was performed on a 16 year old girl named Gina, which. Why are you giving away that much information about a minor?

[A]

I was gonna say why would you give her information? Why wouldn't you do the. Not 16 year old.

[B]

Yeah, why wouldn't you just say two people and then end it there or not say any of this? I don't know.

[A]

He sounds like he's trying to prove something.

[B]

So anyway, Gina let's talk about her. She had already been through a couple psychiatric stays and evaluations for symptoms of. Of what would be called today epilepsy and maybe some sort of schizophrenic or a schizophrenic adjacent situation. Her psychiatrist, which honestly proud that she had a psychiatrist in the 90s. Cause I feel like that was also a little still taboo. Gina, psychiatrist at the time, called her, quote, very agitated, struggling with basic self care needs and actively psychotic.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

So. So by 1991, her symptoms had kept her out of school for many months. And although this matches the psychiatrist description, in different words, what the church described her as was suffering from violent seizures, suffering from vomiting, probably from the seizures. But I think they're trying to make it sound like she was vomiting like a possessed person.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Screaming in odd voices, seeing demons, as well as seeing people who have died. And the church said that these visions were hallucinations of evil. Okay, so she has gotten a diagnosis from both camps, I suppose. So the church discovered Gina when psychiatry, I guess, wasn't helping enough at the time. And Gina's mom, Felicia, she went to a local healer about Gina because she was just so desperate for answers. The healer of course, said, oh, she's possessed. Whoopsie daisy. And so Felicia went to a church for help. And that's how we ended up getting this church evaluation of her. Okay, so the church put together a team. This is, by the way, I guess, how you do it. This is how the exorcisms happen. The church put a team together to evaluate the. The alleged possessed Gina, which. How do you put that team together? Like, are they. I can tell you I looked at the team because. We'll get to that in a second. But I have seen what the team looked like. I would have thought it's a spooky room full of like high priests. It was like your friend Kelly from down the block.

[A]

Okay, you need to watch evil. You need to watch evil. That's the whole premise, is that it's a team of three. A psychiatrist, a priest. It sounds like a joke. A psychiatrist, priest, and a scientist. And they're basically hired by the archdiocese to assess whether whether possessions are real or not.

[B]

Well, yes, I do need to watch evil.

[A]

It's really good. It's a really good show. Highly recommend to everybody. It's creepy. They do lucid dreaming stuff and. And sleep paralysis. It's a really good show. But that. So it. But it is. It's like they basically show up on people's doorsteps and everyone's like, you're the ones the church sent. Like, every time it's like, wait, you.

[B]

It's like, are you supposed to be approachable? Is that how this is supposed to work?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

But yeah. So they got a team together, a little squad, probably from the water cooler or something. Yeah, Ye. They were the ones at the snack table. So they got suckered in and became part of this evaluation team. And this team did an investigation on Gina, which, like, what are you looking for that the church didn't already discover?

[A]

Watch evil and you'll find out. There's so many things.

[B]

Apparently investigations can take up to six months. Fun fact. And that's how long Gina's took. But, like, if she's coming in hot with all these, like, actual symptoms of something else, wouldn't you already kind of have your answer? Anyway, they also had two priests leading the case. One was the official extra.

[A]

I'm just pussing two fingers up and a bunch of balloons flew through the sky because it's a Mac. The Mac graphic when you do two fingers. But my computer's too old, so it only.

[B]

What happens when you do this? Nothing.

[A]

My spirits just flag a little bit.

[B]

I just wanted to know, like, does. Does Apple do something? Because that would be real.

[A]

I love that they're like, that's too far.

[B]

They have such an opportunity for something hysterical. What is going on with everything? Okay, hang on. Let me rearrange my hair because it's out of control today. Great. Oh. So they had two priests leading the case. One was the official exorcist of the New York Archdiocese, named Father A for anonymous. Ok, okay.

[A]

Father Acosta. That's his name on evil. I'm just saying, this is starting to sound really familiar.

[B]

Was the person they were doing this to named Gina?

[A]

They do a different case every episode. Or not? Yeah, but maybe. I'm sure there was a Gina somewhere.

[B]

Does this name sound familiar? Father Labar?

[A]

There's a. Something.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Not looking well.

[B]

So the first thing that these priests did, or that they at least claim that they did, was they looked into her medical background. And, like, this is a quote from Labar. He said, you have to make sure the afflicted has no prior or current medical problems. But, like, okay, she does so.

[A]

Right. So what was her official diagnosis by the psychiatrist?

[B]

The working theory was. I mean, he said the phrase actively psychotic. So some sort of psychosis that there.

[A]

Was no diagnosis of, like epilepsy or anything.

[B]

Right. So I'm guessing because there was nothing on Paper they got to say that they. Weird.

[A]

But why wouldn't they diagnose her if she's having seizures?

[B]

Honestly? Honestly, because she was 16 at the time. Maybe they can't tell us an official diagnosis. Maybe.

[A]

Maybe the records are sealed. That's true. Like, why would they be telling us her. Yeah, right.

[B]

Well, like, they did tell us her symptoms, which it sounds like she wasn't leaving the psychiatric facility she had a hold at without a diagnosis, you know, so. So maybe it's just because she was a minor.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

But yeah. So the first thing out of this guy's mouth is, well, you have to make sure that they don't have any current medical problems. It's like she's literally been. She's had psychiatric stays. Like she. Like this is not a candidate you should be doing, even considering an exorcism on. But then again, I guess if you're looking for someone vulnerable who fits a bill, then sure, after looking into their medical background, they looked into her symptoms to see if they match the criteria for possession. That's a big thing you gotta do before you claim anyone's possessed. Do you know, Ms. Thing, with your degree, do you know what degree? I don't know. You keep saying you've learned it on evil, so let's see if evil talked about this.

[A]

Oh, I was like, you and I have the same degree. Don't put me on this one.

[B]

What are the four criteria for possession? Do you want to take a guess?

[A]

Oh, geez. It probably is on evil. I don't know. I have no idea.

[B]

Okay, well, there is unusual strength. Okay, There is signs of levitation. Is one of the four signs.

[A]

Signs and symptoms.

[B]

Exactly what are signs of levitation?

[A]

Like, I'll show you.

[B]

Then there's knowing things you shouldn't and speaking languages you shouldn't know.

[A]

I mean, that's fair. That would be alarming, all of those things.

[B]

But then I feel like unusual strength. Anytime I meet anyone with any strength, I think they have unusual strength. So that's like, how do you. You know what I mean? Like, I was hanging out with Tanner and like he put me in like a headlock and I was scared for my life. I was like, you're possessed. You have a non useful strength.

[A]

You are unnatural strength. Yet.

[B]

And then knowing things they shouldn't. I mean, that's just to taking a guess sometimes, you know? So that's two things.

[A]

What about being psychic? You're. You're also psychic? I think so. I feel like you may be in trouble.

[B]

In my dreams. I have signs of levitation, certainly in your dreams.

[A]

I've heard you've walked through walls.

[B]

I have not spoken a language I don't know in any world though, so I guess that means I'm in the clear. Not so.

[A]

Wait till you do that. It's fun.

[B]

Oh, great. Well, so you convince yourself that you're really speaking.

[A]

And then like, I woke up one time and I was like. I repeat, I said what I had said in my dream out loud. And I was like, oh, that's nothing. Like, I was like. But like, I woke up and I was like, I can't believe I was just speaking Russian. And then I like, said something and it was just like a bunch of sounds. And I was like that. Okay, my brain is. Gave me a lot of credit on that one.

[B]

You know how on an AI, like if you look at like what a book says, like, the language is not fair.

[A]

Yes. It's like that.

[B]

That I feel like that's how I talk in my dreams. Because I'll also remember someone said something really wise and then I say it.

[A]

Out loud and then it sounds five words, dumb. You're like, why did that seem so mind blowing in my dream? Well, okay, in evil, there's this episode where they're trying to figure out if she's. And she's a scientist, so she's like staunchly atheist, like staunchly, you know, scientific. And there's a part where she has like a little. She has sleep paralysis. And there's a sign on her. Her ceiling with writing. Because she realizes that in her dreams she can't read words. Like, they're like, they just look garbled. And so she puts writing on her ceiling so that when she wakes up and if she's having sleep paralysis, she can look at that and see like, oh, this is a dream. Oh, looks all garbled.

[B]

It's a good idea.

[A]

She knows she's dreaming. I was like, that's genius.

[B]

Are you gonna do that? You're put something on your ceiling.

[A]

You know what I'll do? I have my, my tattoo on my arm. I can just look at my tattoo and if the numbers look off. Off.

[B]

Oh, that's a great idea.

[A]

Yeah, I just thought of that.

[B]

How about you, Christine? Any unusual strength on your end?

[A]

And sir, I mean, certainly not actually unusual weakness.

[B]

I think that's what I got.

[A]

Yeah, right. Like I'm in bed right now. I don't think feats of strength are my. Are my strength.

[B]

What about signs of levitation?

[A]

Again, very, very horizontal. Very Weighted down right now, but thank you for asking.

[B]

Yeah, I guess that could be nuanced. Right? Because like, sometimes my brain certainly feels like it's levitating, right?

[A]

Like sometime I leave my body, like, physically.

[B]

Like sometimes I don't feel so bogged down by society and I'm like, oh, I feel light today. Like I can move. Is that a sign of love? I don't know. I don't know.

[A]

Could be like, metaphorically.

[B]

Well, so step one, assemble a team of church people from your fellowship club, I suppose. Step two, have them do a six month investigation on you where they check into your medical background, even though you're a minor and definitely have some mental health issues, but let's negate all that. And then step three, see if they have signs of levitation and some other things.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's how. So that's so far, how an actual. I like that.

[A]

Like in that theory, then if they're just like floating and like throwing buses across the city, you're like, but let's start with the medical records.

[B]

But they don't speak French, right?

[A]

Yeah, they're not speaking a language. I think they took French in high school. So like, even if they do speak French, it's not that weird.

[B]

I mean, you know what's funny is you and I obviously can speak Latin, which is the one they should fear, obviously.

[A]

And that's scary.

[B]

Speaking Latin, Nomine cornelia. But here's the thing. If I said that in Spanish, I'm more likely to be possessed because I actually possessed. You know what I mean by like a.

[A]

By like a Mexican farmer who says, the. The girl in the field, what was it? Girl, Agricola on the farm. Whatever the. That Latin phrasing is.

[B]

Well, so this is what Father A had to say about checking out these farms or signs of possession when it comes to Gina. Bother A said, sometimes the person I'm investigating will react just by the fact that I've come to see them, which I would also react, certainly.

[A]

So, like a monster. That is reasonable.

[B]

If a priest. I'm sorry, the archdiocese official exorcist of the state came to visit.

[A]

Father Anonymous. Are you fucking kidding me? Like, don't give Father Anonymous permission to enter my bedroom. Are you out of your mind?

[B]

I too would have unusual strength all of a sudden. When my adrenaline kicked in, I pushed him out though.

[A]

Bulber aggressively.

[B]

And knowing things that I shouldn't know, I'd know immediately that I was in trouble without anyone having telling me. Oh my God. So anyway, it's interesting that he's like. People just get startled when I'm around. It's like, yeah, you're the official exorcist.

[A]

You know, but it's funny because, like, on the show. So he's really hot, the priest on evil. And he's. Of course, he's also black, so he's always like. Yeah, it's always just, like, jarring. I mean, it's the character on the show, but he's like. It's like he shows up, and when he's wearing his, like, clerical collar, all of a sudden people are like, oh, my God. You know, it's just very, like, jarring because he's like this sexy, hot guy, you know, and it's like, whoa. You know, it just feels very. Anyway, it's a. Listen, this show is really good.

[B]

I. It sounds like just fanfic galore.

[A]

It's, like, pretty. Yeah, it's like, pretty.

[B]

Someone rips his clerical collar right off.

[A]

I mean, it gets pretty. It gets a little spicy for, like a. For like, a TV drama type thing. But it's. Yeah, it's good.

[B]

It's good. Good for him. Sorry. Now I'm just imagining what's out there on, like, Watpad.

[A]

Oh, I haven't even thought to look, actually. Never mind. I don't want to know.

[B]

Now you've got something to do.

[A]

I've got a hobby now.

[B]

At no point, by the way, did the priests that are on this case ever imply that Gina has had all four of these signs of possession.

[A]

So are you. Are they saying, like, you're required to have all four to meet the criteria, or you have to have, like, one or two, or at least two, you.

[B]

Know, based on the fact that she didn't have all four and they went along with the exorcism, I'm gonna guess you only have to have a certain.

[A]

Amount, some of them. Okay.

[B]

Which, like, can you imagine just being like, Arnold Schwarzenegger and you're unusually strong? And I was like, oh, get on in the church.

[A]

That accent. He's speaking all sorts of languages.

[B]

Certainly not speaking English.

[A]

Something's wrong. Something's going on.

[B]

So, yeah, at no point do they say she had all four. And then, like, remember I said, like, church, go where? Kelly from down the lane. She's the only one who said, oh, I heard a story from her mom that she's levitated in the past.

[A]

Oh, Lord. Okay, so hearsay on hearsay.

[B]

Yes, exactly. She said, Gina has absolutely levitated in the past and been dragged through a room by unseen hands. So she's moving around all on her own, which isn't even a sign of possession. That one should certainly be on the list.

[A]

I would. I wouldn't say dragged by nothing. Yeah, but once you start adding. I mean, levitation just feels so specific. I feel like they should have done, like, unnatural movements, you know, and then they could have a much, much broader. But that's also more dangerous because then you have seizures and stuff.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Because then, like, you're a witch.

[A]

Might as well stick to just levitating and hope that doesn't happen.

[B]

So when the priest observed Gina, these are some of the things that were off. I suppose she knew that Father A had been up. Knew the. Knew what Father A had been up to the night before and was able to give, like, actual names, which, like, in the. In the 90s is impressive because in today's world, we just stalked him before.

[A]

He came over Snapchat.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, I know what's going on after that. Which. Fun fact, I wonder if, because of social media today, can they even insert that claim in the list of possessions of like. Like, you have to get more specific now of, like, knowing things you shouldn't.

[A]

Knowing things you don't know. It's like. Well, you could know that. Yeah, yeah. It would probably have to be much stricter. But I. But I imagine, like. Like, even the programs where psychic mediums need to test in to these, like, really exclusive psychic medium programs, I'm sure that they have very stringent, like, rules and stuff about. Because now that the Internet's around, I bet you have to change all the rules.

[B]

Ruined a lot for a lot of.

[A]

People, I imagine it's a lot harder to. To figure out what people.

[B]

Yeah, it's really hard to fake your way into an exorcism.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or a lot easier now.

[A]

A lot easier. I guess.

[B]

So after all this, basically, they. The two priests on this, Father A and Father Labar, they said, okay, great, let's go to the bishop. And he gives us the stamp of approval to exercise Gina, which, again, it took six months after the entire investigation.

[A]

Jesus Christ. Okay.

[B]

So the bishop said, oh, okay, yes, she needs an extra.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yes. Now, after she'd been approved. This is where elsewhere in the story, ABC 123, ABC News. They are, I guess, looking at that Gallup poll about people's, like, beliefs in superstition. They're also looking into Cardinal O'Connor saying, oh, exorcisms are very real and they do happen. And we've kept it under wraps except now I'm just gonna blurt out impulsively that we've done two of them or we're doing two of them or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, he shouldn't have been the face of this for the press conference because he really needs to keep his mouth shut anyway there.

[B]

I don't know if Colonel O'Connor had done his. Done that speech yet. I don't know if just the Gallup poll was out, but something's going on in the world where ABC was like, we need to cover this as a segment piece.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay. This is. This is hot stuff. This is hot ticket item. White hot on the news, hot off the press.

[B]

Yes. So ABC reaches out to, I guess all the churches. I don't understand how they. How they found someone, but they reached out and quote, after several conversations and the full consent of clergy and family, we were allowed to watch an exorcism. And not only watch, they were allowed to broadcast an exorcism on TV for.

[A]

Everyone to watch so we could all watch.

[B]

Yes, exactly. So this piece ends it up not just being covered on ABC but on 2020. Do you remember 2020?

[A]

Still watch 2020.

[B]

Do I remember 2020 was a mainstay in my family.

[A]

2020 is still very popular.

[B]

Well, at the time that this came out, I think it had ran for like 13 years. And this ended up being one of the most.

[A]

The.

[B]

One of the most watched segments in its history. I think almost 30 million people viewed this exorcism in broadcast.

[A]

They say sex cells, but em. And I knew from the beginning demon cell, ghosts, demons. That's the shit. People shelling over the big ones. That's why we're recording from shiplap and bed.

[B]

Well, so they ended up, yeah, broadcasting this exorcism. 30 people. 30 million people watch it. Which I would love if they did some sort of collab like ABC X Gallup Poll.

[A]

I mean, nowadays it would be like sponsored by Frito Lay and it would have like all this. Or like crazy like, what's that one that screwed everyone over that. That bitcoin that like.

[B]

Oh, bitcoin. Crypto. Dogecoin.

[A]

Not dogecoin, but like. Yeah, it's crypto. Like one of those crypto websites that like, ended up.

[B]

Crypto.com, maybe.

[A]

Crypto.com. yeah. I feel like it would be some stupid. Like that would.

[B]

They would make her wear like some sort of like, like city bank shirt, you know, like while she's being exercised.

[A]

It'd be like, flo is here. Flo is. Is we're like doing celebrity shots on beer pong, but like for. For exorcist policemen.

[B]

I. Well, so they listen.

[A]

Maybe we should get into marketing. Fuck this. Fuck this. The whole podcasting thing, the big bucks. I've changed my mind.

[B]

They're now get exercise in my Citibank financial shirt. That sounds like a real wild time. So she. They're going to broadcast this. 30 million people. What I was going to say is, I'd love to see the Gallup polls after watching a fucking broadcast of an exorcism and see if the numbers changed. M. Fun fact. The way that I was able to do all these notes is because of this 2020 segment. So. Which is still out there. It's on YouTube.

[A]

Is it like very 90s? Yeah, because I watch 2020 like all the time now when it's on and I feel like I'm so used to it as it's got because I've work. We watched it also as kids and I feel like I'm. I would be so used to it that like going. Getting thrown back to the 90s. I'd be like, holy crap. I don't. Didn't realize. Absurdly different. Obviously it's been 30 years.

[B]

But you know what the real treat is though? Is that because it was clearly like someone videotaping this. Some dad out there was like a exorcism being broadcast. Hell yeah. I'm taping that on my vcr.

[A]

Honey, I told you I needed to buy that new Sony camcorder from Radio Shack.

[B]

Well, so someone videotaped it and then later digitized it and put it on YouTube for us.

[A]

Yes. Oh, oh, sorry. Tape the. I thought you meant tape the actual exorcism, like with a camera. You mean tape the.

[B]

Someone watching the program was like, I. We obviously have to. Because remember back then you couldn't re. Watch it later. You know, free TiVo.

[A]

Yeah, gotcha.

[B]

Like, you only get one shot, so you have to record this if you want to see it again. So he. This. This guy, I'm sure this dad that I've made up in my head, he obviously taped it on his VCR or.

[A]

Like one of ours, like one of our listener types.

[B]

Like someone. Someone taped it, they put it on YouTube and which I like to thank that it was actually this video went to Goodwill and then someone unassumingly bought this video and it's a fucking exorcism gold mine. But because it was just a recording on a VCR of live tv, that means in between our ads. And so if you're wondering how 90s it can get, here are the ads that play in the middle.

[A]

This is why I love you. Go ahead.

[B]

One for Subaru. And it's a red car that looks like a very old version of mine. Thumbs up from it from team Subaru over here. Sprint, which they called themselves at the time. U.S. sprint.

[A]

U.S. sprint. Were the ads like, the same as they are now, like, like funny, or were they just, like, informative?

[B]

It was all like a telenovela. Like, how do you feel about this? You know, oh, geez.

[A]

Drama.

[B]

Okay, then an example of that was shocking in the 90s. I didn't know that they sold these products publicly. Gynolotrimin, which is for yeast infections.

[A]

Yes. Then they always had ads for that yeast infection stuff.

[B]

Your favorite in mine, the Sony Walkman.

[A]

Oh, Sony. I knew it.

[B]

Avis Car Rental.

[A]

Wow, this is so boring.

[B]

ABC Sports was just like. It was just like their general watch ABC for our sports. Then there was. Which I wonder if that was like, if this was a formula. Like, oh, there are four, like, products that get a sale or five products get a sale. Then we just rep ourselves for the rest of it because the next ones are all things that I think you could find on abc. So it was ABC Sports. Then it was a TV show called the Young Writers, which sounds very Western to me.

[A]

Oh, riders. I thought you said writers. Okay.

[B]

No, the Young Writers. And then a movie, an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie. Fun Fact.

[A]

Shut up.

[B]

Called Raw Deal.

[A]

Called Raw Dog. In it.

[B]

Raw. Dogging it with the OG With Arnold.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So those were the ads in the.

[A]

Middle just to clip. Just because I typed in 2020. Just because I did my intrusive typing. And apparently it's on season 47 now.

[B]

So you go, girl.

[A]

Yeah. Get it.

[B]

That's the raw deal. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

If I. If I've ever seen one.

[B]

So those ads played Fun Fact. Now abc, like we said, got involved because they wanted to cover exorcisms for whatever's going on in the news. They got some conversation kicked off with this church who was about to do, like, perfect timing. Right. Of like, oh, funny you should ask because we're literally about to do an exorcism on Sunday. You should come on over.

[A]

Funny timing. We all saw the same Gallup poll in the Wall Street Journal and decided this was now timely.

[B]

So now ABC is following the case, and that is when we get to watch the rest of this unfold on came in front of everybody. So post investigation, we are ABC comes In to film the day of the ritual. The ritual. And before the ritual begins. The price. The price. The priests gathered a team of helpers, which I'm wondering if they're the same people who did the evaluation or if.

[A]

It'S like they needed someone to be the, the, the muscle and they needed someone to be security, you know, know, want to know.

[B]

The next thing I write what I wrote out the people that needed to be there and people to restrain her. But in princes I wrote older than I expected because they were like 80 year old women. Like, what are you doing? Everything feels off about this. Like, why are we, why are we like, this is a girl who should have not been cleared. She has like severe mental health.

[A]

She's a minor and she's a minor. Active psychosis right now. That feels.

[B]

Which also. Wow, let's think, think again. Active psychosis. Can she give informed consent right now?

[A]

I mean not.

[B]

And she's a minor.

[A]

She's a minor. Yeah. No.

[B]

So anyway, there's that. Then they're bringing people in to restrain her who are definitely like the church elders who like just wanted to be involved, I think just to say they could do it. But anyway, before that all happens, they have this ritual where they have a meeting with the people who are going to be helpers and basically giving them a 101 at like an hour before it begins.

[A]

Like, oh, like welcome, thanks for volunteering today. Here's what's gonna happen.

[B]

Yes. Like teaching them on the fly. So an example is at some point, one of the priests tell everyone, do not address her by her name or any other name. Because this thing is like looking for an out and wants to be addressed and wants the attention, blah, blah, blah, blah. So don't even speak to her by name. Don't say any of the other names she says might be here. Nothing. You should not be learning that the hour before.

[A]

Yeah, that feels like something that now is going to be on your mind. And you. How they say, like, don't tell anybody. Don't do something. Because your brain just hears, do something. It's like, you shouldn't have said, don't say this. You should have been like this.

[B]

What if someone you like love recently died and like has a common name like John and now she's saying the name John. Like you're gonna react to that. You know, like, I wonder if I see.

[A]

So if they're saying don't react if.

[B]

She says a name or to any. If she says her name is Gina or John or Zozo or Anything.

[A]

I see. Okay, okay, okay. So even if you're like, oh my loved one, don't humor her or don't.

[B]

With anything, don't give into it.

[A]

Okay, I see.

[B]

So then in this group I said the people who restrain her, who should certainly have been replaced by other people then I don't know.

[A]

I'd rather be. I'd be more comfortable with 80 year old women restraining me than like that's true. Men, that's true.

[B]

But I don't think they were that conscious in the 90s of that the.

[A]

80 year olds, I was like, they were unconscious. Well, that's certainly going to be a problem.

[B]

There was a therapist as well, a doctor, a nurse, a translator in case she like spoke any other languages.

[A]

That's genius, that one.

[B]

I was appreciative.

[A]

Now technology would be so helpful for that. You just hold up your phone, chat GPT.

[B]

What is this demon saying?

[A]

Girl, can you put this in iambic pentameter?

[B]

Can you make it rhyme when you tell me so it's easier to enjoy, ingest, digest.

[A]

I'd really like to write a children's book after this. Can you just speed up the baby's.

[B]

First exorcism and then additional priests are also there, I guess in case people need to tap out. Several days before the exorcism, the priests, I guess start praying and fasting before they do this thing. Like Father A said that he fasted for at least a week. So now this guy's not in his right mind, but he's got.

[A]

Yeah, now they're hungry and cranky and hangry.

[B]

Father A then said, I could die tomorrow. I could be attacked, I could be taken over. It's a very frightening experience. But once you walk down this road, you can't go back.

[A]

Okay, relax Zach Bagin Wander.

[B]

I'm pretty sure I have gone down road similar to that and I do come back every time when I go goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.

[A]

Actively say, I'm leaving and I'm leaving.

[B]

We are not connected to each other helpers. Then get the room ready by removing all things that could be projectiles because she might throw, throw everywhere.

[A]

Oh good.

[B]

Apparently in past briefings where they have seen or during the evaluation period where she was like having signs of possession, she would throw certain things and they were like, oh, we have to take this down, take this down. Because she was already grabbing it last time. It's like having a toddler. It's like, well don't hang that up because she'll just pull it Down.

[A]

Yeah, there's a knob there. We got to cover the knob. We get the sharp corners. Yeah.

[B]

So then Gina stops by the convent, and the group and the priest hold a mass with her. Her. And according to abc, this is a quote. Gina is unaware of her purpose of her visit to the convent. Father. Father A says secrecy ensures demons cannot prepare for the surprise encounter.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

So certainly not informed consent.

[A]

Does this get worse? I didn't think it could get worse.

[B]

I guess she had informed consent that, like, it was coming. If they were evaluating, she sort of.

[A]

Knew that it was happening. Right.

[B]

But, like, she knew, like, eventually it would happen.

[A]

She didn't know day.

[B]

Yeah. So intervention. And to keep the demons from knowing. Okay, whatever. They know the second you start praying over her.

[A]

This is, like, seriously weird.

[B]

So it sounds like, well, she's a teenager, and she won't want to get out of bed if she knows what's happening today. So, like, let's just not tell her.

[A]

Or, like, we're afraid she's gonna back out, so let's just do it without telling her.

[B]

So she shows up, thinking she's just there for, like, a meeting with her mom. And then they start praying over her. Doing a literal Mass. The team surrounds Gina while the priest has her drink holy water to stir the pot. Like, piss off the demons, I guess. And then he, quote, probes her psyche to figure out. To figure out what demons he's confronting. And by. Probe her psyche, he asked her questions.

[A]

Yeah, I was going to say probe her psyche. What, you gave her a questionnaire?

[B]

Yeah. He just said, like, what are you thinking about? And she was like, I'm thinking I don't want to be here. And he was like, we have to be here. Yeah. Then Gina begins retching, as they say. But it honestly, to me, just sounded like she was burping from the holy water.

[A]

Gross. That has oil in it. Why are you drinking that?

[B]

Should not be drinking it. Gina then makes an odd sound. Okay, I did that. Okay. Then in a deep voice, she says, gina said to me, I have to go. I don't want. I don't want to go. You understand? You understand? I don't want to go. Okay.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Sorry, girl. You're gonna have to go, I guess.

[A]

Creepy.

[B]

So the next clip is Gina speaking in another language, which is a sign of possession. But it just sounds to me like I've seen enough of those like. Like, coverings of, like, people doing, like, speaking in tongues in church. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

That's me and my Lucid dream speaking Russian. How did you know that?

[B]

That's me trying to read a book in AI. Yeah.

[A]

How could you understand?

[B]

There's. She's speaking in tongues, which I guess is speaking in a language no one else can understand. Sure.

[A]

Technically, sure.

[B]

Yeah. So I guess then they hold her down. All three 80 year olds.

[A]

And then they're just asleep. They just kind of hold them on top of her, by the way.

[B]

Or then like, she's unusually strong. It's like, no, girl, she's just. Just 16.

[A]

Like she's not 90.

[B]

She's unusually strong for people whose muscle mass decreases over time. Yeah.

[A]

This is so wild. It's like, oh, where are our volunteers? And it's like these three elderly women quilt. The quilting club has shown up. And you're like, damn it. I thought we'd get at least a few able bodied young men.

[B]

It's like holding down me holding down rj And I'm like, he's unusually strong. It's like, no, he's just actually trying.

[A]

It's actually the exact ratio that the universe has.

[B]

He's actually the standard. You're disgusting.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you have a problem.

[B]

So they hold her down and they start praying and she screams, get out of here. I don't want to leave. Me don't want to leave. We all want Gina.

[A]

Me don't want to leave. Gross. As if. As if it can get worse. Don't baby talk. That's like that, like, makes me talk about retching. I'm going to wretch. Nina want to leave. Okay, okay.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, let's use some grammar here. If you really want to leave, you can speak in other languages, but you.

[A]

Can'T say, he doesn't know how to read. Come on.

[B]

If anything, he knows better English than we do. He's been doing it.

[A]

His name's Beelzebub.

[B]

You could say Beelzebub, but not I. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Really get it together.

[B]

The priest said that this. I really appreciate this part. The priest said that Gina's face then changed in a way where they knew that Gina was no longer present.

[A]

She's mad girl. Yeah, well, it's not. It's. It's usually sign of a personality disorder and. Or active psychosis.

[B]

It's a girl point.

[A]

Come on. Like, I've seen this face happen to people too. And I'm like, oh, thank you.

[B]

I haven't seen this film before and.

[A]

I'm going to hell now. But it's all metaphorical, you see. It's not metaphorical. It's real, but it's not Catholic. It's just the state of our brains and hell is on earth. That's what I believe. Gallop. You got a little check mark for that. Thank you so much for whatever I just said.

[B]

And also like, I mean, she looked really. I mean she was bugging out for sure. But like when he said, oh, her face changed. She really just looked like a pissed off 16 year old. Like, yeah, honestly.

[A]

And you should be afraid. Like a bunch of adults who just pissed off a 16 year old should be afraid.

[B]

It feels a little New agey witch trials where it's like, oh, well, she looks really angry and she is unusual strength. It's like she's a hormonal 16 year old who has mental health issues. Like, versus a bunch of like old people in the room. Like, of course she scares you.

[A]

Skin tags and hair in weird places. Like, nope, that's just another human. It's just how it is. It's not the devil.

[B]

It just, it just felt very like old ideology meeting like new world problems or like normal world problems, not even new world. But it, it seems like if anyone our age were there, we'd have been like, yeah, she looks pissed. Everyone's holding her down, chanting.

[A]

It's very archaic way to talk about a situation that's kind of obviously. Yeah, yeah. Something else.

[B]

He then says, this is a quote from Father A. Gina was no longer present. That's when the entity manifested itself by revealing who he was.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Okay, and then Gina, very creepily, I will say, she said, my name is Ming. And my favorite part. Okay, so then in the comments.

[A]

Yes, the comments. This is what we needed back then. Today we have comments. Thank you.

[B]

Someone in the comments. I don't know if it was on the YouTube video itself or if I saw it in like a different. A different source, but someone said that her and her brother were like kids when this came out and they remembered watching it. And my name is Mingo. The way she said it was so creepy to them that they would just. It became like a stable. They said all the time. Yeah, but they would say to scare each other around corners. She said, like, we were both so scared of the basement, so anytime one of us went down there, you the other one would shout, my name is Minga.

[A]

My name is Minga. I mean like, of all things, that's one of the creepier ones because it's like, it's like, sounds playful and childish, but like, what the fuck? That's so creepy.

[B]

I just remember the way that I wish I kept, like, a screenshot of, like, that. That Reddit comment or whatever, because it was, like. It was like, our favorite thing to say to each other as a kid. And, like, in. We would even say it to, like, try to make each other laugh in silent spots where you're not supposed to laugh and go, my name is Minga.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Minga. You could, like, spell it out in sign language, be like, Ming. I.

[B]

It's like you drawing those sexual sick.

[A]

Figures when we're on the news. The power of one of those that, like, just choke holds you and a sibling or you and a friend. Like, it just. The power is unmatched.

[B]

It got me. Got me cooking. So anyway, she says, my name is Minga the priest.

[A]

That's creepy. I don't like that name. The priest then puts me don't like Minga. Hey, how do you feel now, Father? Whatever.

[B]

Well, he then puts a cross on her forehead, and you can see that he's pressing it in a little hard, but so he then says, you want pain? I'll give you pain. And, like, presses the cross on her head.

[A]

No.

[B]

And then Gina whispers, ouch. Is that the demon being funny? Or is that Gina just being, like, a douche?

[A]

Or is Gina like, hey, what the. That hurts.

[B]

I mean, later on, they do, like, a. Like a post post, like, two months later kind of thing.

[A]

Interview. Yeah.

[B]

And they were asking her, like, about how it went, and she even says, like, he was. It's just really hard. He was just pressing into it way too hard. But there you go. Like, that wasn't a demon. That was just her being like, get the. Away from me.

[A]

Ow.

[B]

So then Gina seems to be back to normal for a second and tells everyone that there are 10 demons in her body. Two of them are Minga and another one named Zion. And before we even. I don't even know what to do with this. I'm just reporting the news, folks. She said, Minga is a very short woman and Zion is an African from the jungle. I don't even want to know. I don't even want to know what that means. Anyway, there you go. In case you were wondering how you could, like, place them in your head with a right, very, very broad description.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

Anyway, so Father A starts to read the right of exorcism, puts the cross back on Gina's forehead. She starts trying to wriggle away, and she screams that it hurts. Probably because it just generally hurt. She screams, stay away. I Don't want to go. Help. Do something. Somebody help me. And then start screaming in tongues.

[A]

Oh, my God, this is so dark.

[B]

The team of geriatrics hold her down, and they actually tie her down because they couldn't hold her because she was so strong.

[A]

Knitting needles. Susie, pass the speckled 45 yarn.

[B]

I feel like that's a Pixar movie waiting to happen, though. Like, in a frenzy. Like, you can only trust the people who know how to knit really good. They're gonna embroider you to the wall.

[A]

Yeah, they're witchy in their. In their. It's like. It's like a. A lady who was going to yarn club. Knitting club, but accidentally went to the coven. And they're like, actually, we could use your pattern.

[B]

I mean, I know you haven't seen Agatha all along, but she reminds me of, like, Deborah Jo Rupp's character, who is literally just accidentally there. And she just likes gardening.

[A]

Like, oops, I just stumbled into this. But I guess it works.

[B]

Like, I guess I'll just actually start knitting it down. All right.

[A]

Yeah. Fuck, yes.

[B]

Meanwhile, she's screaming and wriggling as things get too intense. And of course, as she's screaming, somebody help me. Get away from me. Because she's a person who just wants to be out of the situation. Is it her mental health issues is.

[A]

In distress in some way?

[B]

Yeah. So Father A then said, thank God they were tying her down, because it could have led to levitation.

[A]

God forbid we get levitation on tv. ABC News immediately gets the scissors out. They're like, cut those strings. She needs to float.

[B]

The producers, like, hack away at that chair.

[A]

They're like. They're like, do a peace sign. Balloons fly everywhere. It's just. Just go with it. It'll impress the nation.

[B]

So they. This is what he says. It could have led to levitation if she wasn't held down. Because she could have then if something wasn't holding her down, she would have risen to the ceiling so nobody could touch her. So I was like, a.

[A]

As a defensive kick ass. I would have loved, like, Spider man just right. Like, okay, let's see it then. If that was so bound to happen.

[B]

Gina continues to scream and tries to fight off people holding her down. Father A calls this the confrontation stage. You don't. I don't say. Father Aen said anytime he looked at her, he could see the hate in her eyes, which she did look like she hated everyone there. But is it because a demon doesn't want an extra?

[A]

My mom said that to Me all the time when I was 16. Yeah.

[B]

But I made those. I still make those eyes at my.

[A]

Mom still doing it. Yeah.

[B]

Gina then starts shouting, sinners. The world is getting worse. More wars are coming. Do you understand? Jesus is going to take all of us. He's going to burn a lot of people. People.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Which, like, okay, that one I hear you on.

[A]

Okay, that's.

[B]

Things are not as funny as they were a second ago. Yeah. Then she starts barking, and then she's rolling her eyes, which, again, you're 16. She says, I don't like you. And then she speaks in tongues and wags her tongue around and creepily smiles like, ew. But I think that was literally in the Exorcist.

[A]

Exorcist, yeah.

[B]

If an exorcism is about to be performed on you for research for R D, maybe you watch that movie, you know?

[A]

Well, and you're going on ABC and all your friends are gonna see it. Like, you want it to look real, right? I mean, I don't know. I don't know if she's playing along or if she's really. If. If she's actively psychotic. There's no saying what, you know? Yeah, it's not, but. Wow. Wow.

[B]

Well, so Father A then commands the demons to lay free, which, like, if it's that easy, why.

[A]

Why didn't you do that? Okay, whatever.

[B]

After six hours of commanding the demons to leave, apparently the exorcism is over. Which. How do you know that the exorcism is over? Like, couldn't they be tricking you into thinking they're gone?

[A]

No, there's all sorts of ways you. They test it on evil.

[B]

Okay, I'll watch evil. Jesus.

[A]

A little sharp thing. Or you do all sorts of stuff to see if they're really there or if they're still, like, hiding in there, you know?

[B]

Well, Gina seems to be fine now. She hugs her mom, is obeying the priest when he, like, tells her to do certain things. She seems totally fin. But that night, apparently Gina claimed to hear voices again in her bedroom. So Father A goes over to the house and did an exorcism on the house, which I wonder why that wasn't approved. Maybe it was, like, part of this current exorcism. So.

[A]

Well, I bet the exorcism in the church was a better setting for a televised. Like, it feels like the vibe is just like, oh, let's do it inside a Catholic church.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. Well, so after a few days, the house of God post her exorcism and post, going over and doing some sort of blessing or exorcism on the house.

[A]

Right.

[B]

A few days after that, ABC reports that Felicia, Gina's mom, had to bring Gina back to the hospital, the psychiatric hospital, because things hadn't gotten better. So what do you know? The exorcism didn't work, and she had to stay there for two weeks.

[A]

I mean, it probably aggravated it. Like, I don't know that for a fact. I'm no doctor, but, like, if this. If this is nothing spiritual at all, like, this is just harmful, then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, you're putting it on display for the world. Like, yikes.

[B]

Yeah, there's. I mean, imagine even having people knocking on your door to interview you about the ex. Like, I mean, even. Yeah, even just the. The world now of having televised something like that.

[A]

Like, now you're recognizable. Yeah.

[B]

Like, you got to be beyond stable to keep up with that shit. And, like, she's already going through it.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So her doctor reported after these two weeks that she had a stay. The doctor said that Gina would, quote, distort reality, but not to the degree that she had previously. And this was because they put her on meds and did a lot of therapy with her, which seemed to help. They put her on an antipsychotic medication, and she could. She was continuing that medication after she left the hospital, too. So. So ABC interviewed her psychiatrist, which was the same one before and after her exorcism. She kept going to the same guy, and the psychiatrist said he's never thought somebody could be possessed, and he doubts anyone can be possessed. So he thought this whole extrasm thing was, like, not worth anyone's time.

[A]

Hey, I wonder whose opinion I'm gonna believe.

[B]

Well. So meanwhile, Father Labar was asked the difference between psychosis and being possessed and how we can tell that Gina is possessed.

[A]

And he's the exper. So let's hear what he has to say.

[B]

Yeah. And he's. This is a quote, because I still am trying to unpack it. It feels like AI wrote it. I'd have to ask whether the psychiatrist believes possession is possible first. And just because it's psychotic doesn't mean we should exclude the presence of demons, because I always ask them. Them being psychiatrists. All right, you've explained it this far, but now what. What's after that? It's still happening and they can't answer. Answer it.

[A]

What do you mean? That's like saying, now what? Cancer? You can't. You don't know what it is. No, I do. It doesn't mean we can stop it or figure out, like, what the. Or know how it works.

[B]

Like, well, now you know what the mental health is, but since you haven't fixed it.

[A]

Doesn't make any sense. That's really.

[B]

And I like, he's like, well, before I could. First of all, he didn't describe the difference between possession or psychosis. He just said like, well, does the psychiatrist believe in possession? Because if no, then it's gonna be like. Is that your definition is like, whether or not the doctor believes in.

[A]

First of all, it's like, what psychiatrist. We're not ask. Asking, we're asking you. Why are you talking like, yeah, well, it's not about. This is just.

[B]

Anyway.

[A]

Straw man argument.

[B]

He thought it was a neat little gotcha. But. So the interviewer then says, well, since Gina is doing better after medication and therapy, do you think the exorcism was a success or a failure? Yeah, I love this interview.

[A]

I love that they said with medication and like, not, oh, she's doing better, but like, yeah, she's doing better with all her medication and therapy.

[B]

It's like, well, she still had to go back to. For the same symptoms to a hospital. So what do you think? Like, days later, and Lar said this. The drugs treat the natural part of her issues. But what.

[A]

God's sake.

[B]

But what I believe and she has said consistently is that the voices don't bother me anymore. And that's whether or not she's had any drugs. So he thinks that the medication is just an additive to the fact that he fixed her.

[A]

I mean, I figured he would say that, so I guess I'm not surprised.

[B]

Yeah, my jaw remains in place. So meanwhile, the interviewer then asked Gina's therapist, do you think the exorcism contributed to her now well being. And the doctor just went, I doubt it.

[A]

See, that's. It's called a concise answer. Okay, like, you don't need to go on some rant about what the psychiatrist might believe and blah, blah, blah.

[B]

Like, so not only that, but the psychiatrist said something that you just alluded to where he said the exorcism probably actually made things worse for Gina. And he. This is a quote from him. If her delusion is that she's possessed, then the exorcism might have confirmed the delusion. So now, on top of her act of psychosis, she now also thinks she is possessed.

[A]

You're basically like, creating this reality where she's possessed, and that's why this is it's. Like. It's like, dangerous. I mean, it's really dangerous.

[B]

And also, if she is ever in having a moment where she believes that she's possessed and, like, even an exorcism didn't fix her, then, like, what's she gonna do now? You know?

[A]

Was she, like, beyond help or, like, what. What are you trying to say about her? You know, that's so scary.

[B]

So two months later, they re interview Gina, who is still on medication, and she says, I feel. Poor girl. I feel much better. Thanks to God for liberating me from evil. I feel much better.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

One thing I appreciate that ABC did is that they asked someone who was both a reverend and a psychiatrist.

[A]

Okay. Because I was like, this feels very polar. Polarizing.

[B]

Yeah. And he basically said that people are just gonna. It's all about perception and what you believe in that you're just gonna twist it into whatever your own background is. So.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He was not much help. But I appreciate that ABC tried to talk to somebody with both backgrounds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There was a lot of differing opinions, I will say, even in the church, about filming and broadcasting an exorcism.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Some thought that it brought attention to. To those who are possessed to let them know that the church can help them and the power of prayer. But other people thought that, especially, like, super religious people, they were like, this is turning Catholicism rights into a sideshow. And it violates the whole idea that this is like a private ceremony, like.

[A]

Sanctified in some way.

[B]

Yeah. So others worried that Gina and her mother actually felt pressured to do the broadcast. Slash, could Gina even give conformed consent in informed consent? I don't think she could. But people think, like, maybe they felt pressured to do this because, like, how often is the church doing exorcisms? Right. When ABC wanted to do something like a segment piece.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And you. You convince. You know, someone convinces the mother or whatever, and then all of a sudden it's like, well, the kid has to go along with it.

[B]

Yeah. And also think about, like, maybe they were getting paid in some way to contribute. Maybe they had some money issues. Maybe the church was pressuring them of, like, if you do this, you. Yeah, the mom was desperate.

[A]

The mom wanted help.

[B]

Also, I saw from a few sources that she was an immigrant. I don't know if that means that she was like. I don't know.

[A]

I don't know if, like, if English was her second language or not that.

[B]

And people. The sources I was reading were implying that maybe they were threatening that, like, she needed to do this or they would, like, give her issues about sticking around. It sounded like there was, like, some extra conspiracy on top of these, but I don't really know all about that. So. Um. But I would imagine even, like, the church saying, if you don't do this, then you're doing a disservice to God and people who might need help. And so then they feel pressured that way. Or.

[A]

Right. Or like, we won't participate unless you agree to the ABC thing. And then it's like, well, shit.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So we don't know how. How into doing this they even were. Entertainment Weekly came out with something to say because this is a televised experience. And even Entertainment Weekly was like, are we cool with a whole fucking exorcism just being broadcast on tv?

[A]

That's good. They asked.

[B]

And so Entertainment Weekly put out a quote saying, with technology advancing at a rapid rate, how far will reality TV go?

[A]

That's funny.

[B]

With the thirst for sensation only you knew. With the thirst for sensational invasions. With the thirst for sensational evasions taking us further than 2020 exorcism rituals. How about live electroshock therapy treatments? How about on camera abortions? A video verity. Crime of the week. The experts disagree on the future of explicit tv.

[A]

Wow. That is.

[B]

Additionally and shockingly, some church members actually thought that the broadcast harmed mental health, which I thought was interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. A lot of them thought that this actually trivialized actual mental health problem. Because you're putting exorcism before a doctor.

[A]

Like, oh, she's hearing voices. It must be the devil. It feels just so medieval. Like Middle Ages, you know?

[B]

Yeah. A lot of them believe that by showing an exorcism to the masses, it promoted archaic solutions to current problems and people might lean into archaic solutions instead of getting actual help first.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they feared that it could be misleading. Misleading to people who have true mental health issues that should seek help. So, um, Even other reverends were calling televising and exorcism indefensible.

[A]

Yeah. Pretty shady, this guy.

[B]

His name was Father McBrien. He was very against the idea of broadcasting this. He later appeared on ABC's Nightline program, which I looked everywhere for. No one has uploaded their VHS recording of it. No, but he seems to be so against this. And there was another former extra exorcist that chimed in also, and he said, this is a quote. Over time, these people that we treated revert back. You're simply dealing with mental problems and they need professional help. The church should not be doing this kind of thing I've witnessed people who have died because of it. And that's a former exorcist saying exorcisms don't work.

[A]

That's the, that's the voice I, I pay attention to somebody who was in it and is out of it now.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. And the one thing I'll say is. Or the last thing I'll say is. Fun fact. Soon after this exorcism, Father Labar, who participated in this, he became the chief exorcist of the New York Archdiocese. So a lot of people think that maybe he did this just to further his own agenda.

[A]

Interesting. I mean, yeah. Also the other thing that you see in evil is the, are the politics of the Catholic Church. And you know, it's just a very, very traditional and powerful hierarchy. So not totally surprised by that.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, that was a long one, but it was. I wanted to do a play by play because how often do you get to just watch a video with everybody?

[A]

I cannot believe it. I'm going to watch that just for the commercial. I watch it for the commercials, you know.

[B]

Well, that was the possession of Gina.

[A]

I mean, indeed it was. And I'm glad that you didn't give me a last name because it means at least they didn't give her name. Yeah, I wonder if that was her real name or if that was a fake.

[B]

I don't think it was her real name. I think it was a fake name.

[A]

That makes me feel better. I love that it all started with that guy going, yeah, well I did too. Just this week in New York.

[B]

And ABC went, write that down. Write that down.

[A]

That's the guy we gotta call. Okay, I have huge breaking news that I'm part of the problem. Because in 2024 it was reported that more people. People now use THC than drink on the daily.

[B]

I was just home at my mom's house and every pantry seemed to have some sort of THC situation.

[A]

No way. Wow.

[B]

Big fan of thc, honey. All sorts of stuff. So yeah, she is on the. On the wagon with you.

[A]

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Just head to cornbreadhemp.com drink and use code drink at checkout. That's cornbreadhemp.com drink code drink cornbread hemp. This is the good life. It is indeed. Okay, well, I have a story for you today as well, and it's a sad one. It's one that I've wanted to do for years now. I'm, I'm excited to tell you the story, but it's pretty heartbreaking. This is the story of Brianna Maitland. Okay, so we go back to 2004, which somehow is 21 years ago now, which also means my sister turns 21 this year. Wow.

[B]

Wow. Are you going to be her first drinking buddy?

[A]

Yeah, we're going to Margaritaville. The new Margaritaville. Yeah, I'm really amped, you know, I love Margaritaville.

[B]

That's where you and I are going too, right?

[A]

Oh, we better. We better. I'm very excited because I, we, we said it as a joke when they first announced they were opening one, but now it's become such a plan in the family that I'm like, it's too late. We, we've unironically decided to go now. So I'm excited for that, to finally open up. I hope on time. If not, then her 22nd birthday will, will be a riot.

[B]

It sure will. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so Brianna Maitland. 2004, March 20th. A state police officer in northern Vermont responded to a possible car accident. Someone, it seems, had crashed their vehicle into a house on the side of a country road. So the officer arrived on scene and he saw exactly what had been described. There was a green Oldsmobile, but when they said driven into the house or crashed into the house, he didn't realize till he got there that the car was backwards. So it was almost like the back end of it had crashed through the siding of the farmhouse and it had gone into. I mean, it had. What did you call it?

[B]

Oh, it broke into Wallace.

[A]

It broke through Wallace or broke into Wallace. And it broke through the wall, and. And there was minimal damage to the vehicle. There was also nobody in the car. The house was abandoned, so there was nobody there. And behind the house was this large field and just some woods. So there's this empty car backed into a farmhouse. Empty farmhouse, empty field.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

A plywood board had been nailed over a window on the side of the house, and that had collapsed outward onto the vehicle, and nobody had, like, brushed it off or anything. So who. Whoever had gotten the car there had left the scene with barely. You know, without barely touching anything. There were no neighbors around because it's a pretty isolated area, so no witnesses as to what happened. And the drivers who noticed the accident on their way didn't have any clue either. They had just seen the car there and called it in.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So, of course, the officer's first instinct is, okay, well, probably somebody abandoned their vehicle after drunk driving and didn't want to get in trouble for crashing the. A car and left it there. And that's, like, reasonable enough. You know, out in the. On a country road, you can see why that would be their first inkling. Someone may have picked this person up. Like, maybe they. They walked away from the car and walked home.

[B]

But what yours is because they could have just called their friend, been like, here, come get me.

[A]

It was.04. So, yeah, it's possible that they just, like, called a friend or just walked back to their property or who knows what? Maybe someone else was with them. But either way, he wasn't too worried. He reported the license plate number. He looked inside the car, and he found some personal belongings in the car that were able to help him identify the owner.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Among these personal belongings were several uncashed paychecks from the Black Lantern Inn. This is a local hotel and restaurant in Montgomery, Vermont. And the checks were made out to Brianna Maitland. Now, the officer drove to the inn to ask about Brianna and the vehicle, but the restaurant was closed. And another report was called in, and he just moved on and had the Oldsmobile towed to a nearby auto shop and hoped that the owner would just come by and claim it. And he never followed up with that car. He just got busy and was like, I'm moving on, and kind of forgot about it.

[B]

And, you know, well, it seemed innocuous enough.

[A]

It seemed innocuous. And he just thought, well, I'm not gonna, you know, go reporting this. He. He should have followed up with the family and made sure, like, they knew the car was there, but, you know, whatever. So five days later, on Thursday, March 25, a married couple arrived at the State Police Department looking for answers about their daughter, who was reported as missing just days earlier. So the officer asked them to describe their daughter's vehicle, which was also missing. And the couple said, well, the vehicle that she drove was a green old school mobile. And the police officer was like, oh, right, a green Oldsmobile. I think we saw one of those recently. The couple that had come in were Kelly and Bruce Maitland. They were the parents of Brianna Maitland, and her name was the one on the checks found in the vehicle. So this is obviously her car. And when Kelly, her mom, saw a picture of the abandoned vehicle, vehicle, she said in an episode of Disappeared that she wanted to vomit. She's like, I saw the car abandoned, parked, backed into a bill, a farmhouse. And she was like, I knew. I knew something terrible had happened.

[B]

And also I would be so. I understand, like, what you mean about, like, the guy being like, all right, I put in. I put in the information and, you know, I just kind of went on my day. It was an innocuous, like, seemed like it was a drunk driver. Yeah.

[A]

Cut and cut and dry.

[B]

Cut and dry case. But I. I can't imagine the anger searing through me on the other side of, like, how did you not five follow?

[A]

That was before. She'd only been missing for a few days. And it's like, five days ago, they found this car and just had it towed. Nobody, like, took pictures.

[B]

The police, no one, like, looked at the license, like, looked up the license plate.

[A]

They did. They, like, noted it, but then they just had the car towed and, like, didn't follow up with the family, didn't check to see if Brad Rihanna was okay. Like, he went to the restaurant, it was closed. He just left. And I know that that happens. And I know in probably 99 of the time that gut instinct is like, yep, you were right. Some drunk, you know, but then the 1% when you don't follow up and it turns into this is just, like, so not worth that risk, I think. So Kelly sees this picture. She is like the wind is knocked out of her. She feels like she's going to vomit. Vomit. For days now, she had hoped that Brianna had driven herself to a friend's house or to see a boyfriend. Like, when Brianna and her car were missing, it was a lot less scary to her mom than when her car was found and Brianna was missing.

[B]

Right. Because it could have been like, they took a road trip and never called us or something.

[A]

Yes. Like, maybe, you know, maybe she just went to a friend's house and is mad at me and she'll come back, you know. But now it was clear that something was very, very wrong. And so the office officers obviously knew that they had completely misstook this car for an abandoned vehicle. So they began backtracking through the previous week to put together a timeline that basically followed Brianna and her oldsmobile. So Friday, March 19, that had been a good day for Brianna. Her mom had taken her out to breakfast that morning because she was taking her high school equivalency exam. So sort of a. A G ged and once completed, she would get her high school diploma. And she had been really pushing to become a high school graduate. So this was a huge deal for her. And so this was a very big day. That was March 19th, Friday.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So Brianna had grown up on a rural farm with her parents in Vermont. She was fiercely independent. She was that kind of teenager who always dreamed of moving away. She wanted to either go to Toronto or New York City. And she often felt very lonely and just felt out of place in her kind of rural town, her small town. One friend said in an interview that Brianna often worried about everything from how she was perceived. Her grades, her looks, her reputation. And she always felt like she wasn't doing it right. Like she was just not fitting in the way that she wanted to.

[B]

Been there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it was difficult for Kelly to understand why other kids wouldn't like her daughter. She considered her daughter very, very kind. But she said maybe people thought she was just naive. She was always, like, smiling, always looking for the best in people. Apparently one time, Kelly came home from work to find a teenage boy in their kitchen. And she was like, who's this? And Brianna was like, oh, well, there's this teen, there's this teenage boy. He was hitchhiking, and I couldn't just leave him on the side of the road. And so her mom was like, she would just, like, help anybody without thinking and, like, would. She may have just gotten into trouble because she was vulnerable in that way.

[B]

That she feels like such an easy explanation too open hearted.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And so Kelly said Brianna thought everyone was good at some point at some level, and there was good inside everyone and that everyone had problems. And, you know, some maybe just needed more help finding that niceness than others. And she was the person who wanted to give them that, that kindness. And, you know, her friends called her loud and goofy, a partier, just like, lit up a room, lit up a room. And she definitely loved Attention. She was the kind of gal who when she drank, got a little bit loud and excitable and fun and like she wanted to be the life of the party. She also liked attention from boys. And that just was something she found found affirming. You know, she was always seeking to fit in.

[B]

She could have just fallen into the lap of like a Ted Bundy of like, can you help me do this?

[A]

And yeah, easy.

[B]

Giving you attention and you could be helpful and.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She was also. And I, I felt uncomfortable by the amount that they mentioned this on the show. But she was beautiful. Like, she's really gorgeous. And so, so it's like, you know, I mean, she, for the time especially, it's so funny. Like you can see like the very plucked eyebrows. Like you can just tell, like, she's beautiful. And, you know, not that that should be relevant in any context other than that could have made her additionally a target.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And so whether it's somebody she knew or didn't know, but so, you know, she was a pretty average teenage girl. She just wanted to like make friends, do well in school, fit in. And apparently one night Brianna went to a party where another girl was reportedly jealous of the way Brianna had spoken to her boyfriend. Oh, and classic high school stuff, right? So either way, Brianna was like, I'm leaving. She went outside to avoid an argument. She sat in her boyfriend's truck, but the girl followed her outside drunk and pissed off.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And when Brianna rolled down the window to talk to her, this girl grabbed Briana and punched her repeatedly in front face. And it is bad. She concussed Brianna.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Broke her nose. She had to be hospitalized. You, if you see the photo, she has like black eyes. I mean, she was beaten up by this girl.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

At the time, her parents were like, why didn't you fight back? Because Brianna was actually trained in martial arts. She was very, very good at self defense. And she told them when they asked her why you didn't fight back, she said she was afraid if she fought back, people would be mad at her and wouldn't like her anymore.

[B]

Oh, the people pleaser effect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Poor girl.

[A]

So by the time Brianna was 17, her loneliness felt unbearable and she decided to move off of her parents farm to a friend's house so she could go to a different high school, which was her friend's high school.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Her parents were not thrilled about this, but they were like, okay, you know, she's so unhappy and she's very strong. Yeah, she's very strong willed, like if we fight this, it's just gonna go. Go bad. So they hoped, like, okay, maybe she's. This will help her get back to on her feet. But unfortunately did not. Life got pretty unstable. She dropped out of high school. She started bouncing around between different friends houses. Sometimes she would stay with a boyfriend if she was dating someone. And things kind of remained difficult until February of 2004. And that's when she moved in with her childhood friend Jillian Stout. And that's when she enrolled in that high school equivalency program. So that gift GED program to earn her diploma, because that was a really important thing for her.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

She. She got two jobs. One was at the Black Lantern Inn as a dishwasher, and one was at a restaurant. And things stabilized slowly but surely for Briana. She worked really hard to try to get the life she wanted. And friends said she dreamed, like I said, of moving to New York City, maybe Toronto, maybe Montreal. She just wanted something bigger and better and adventure. An adventure, yes. And she wanted to just, like, break out of her. Of herself. Small town, you know? So when she took her final high school equivalency exam that same day that her mom took her out for breakfast, March 19, it was basically this, like, new start. She had, like, the whole world at her fingertips. Her mom picked her up at noon. They went shopping to celebrate. Her mom said she loved shopping because everything looked good on her. I was like, yeah, well, you go, girl. That must be nice.

[B]

I've never. I've never had that. Feels like maybe an original experience.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds delightful.

[B]

Really good for you, though.

[A]

Yeah. So while they were in line to check out, Brianna looked out the window of the store and said, oh, no. Okay, I'll be right back, mom, and left. So Kelly was like, all right. And Brianna left. But when she didn't return, Kelly left the store and met Briana in the parking lot. And it was like Brianna's entire mood had shifted. Like she something. She had gotten some shocking news, or like her mom just. Just didn't know. She seemed shaken. She seemed anxious. She said she just wanted to get home now and get ready for work. So her mom was like, oh, okay. And, you know, a lot of people were pissed off that her mom didn't ask, like, didn't pry, like, what happened? What's wrong?

[B]

In hindsight, I could see why.

[A]

Yeah. And I do find it a little odd you wouldn't say, like, hey, what's the matter? But I mean, maybe she did, and maybe her daughter was like, nothing, you know, and it's like, what do you say to a 19 year old? You can't like force them to talk, talk to you.

[B]

And it sounds like she's a mom who's like trying to like give her, give her her space, her autonomy space.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, all right, that's you. If you're fine, you're fine again.

[A]

And she just, I mean, she's clearly making good choices. She's like coming back into her own, you know, I don't, I don't think it's necessarily as sinister as everyone like just screams at this mother. It's like, well, okay, she was trying not to pry, you know, she's trying.

[B]

To be a nice mom, be respectful.

[A]

And her daughter's an adult, you know, so it's like her daughter doesn't have to tell her anything.

[B]

And also like to this day, if my mom saw me upset and then what, what's wrong? I'd be like, nothing.

[A]

Like, right.

[B]

Be like, none of your business. Like, I, yeah, I, I, it wouldn't, I would probably wouldn't tell her if it like didn't matter. If I didn't like open up a can of water.

[A]

I feel like what I would say is like, hey, are you okay? And they'd be like, yeah. And it's like, okay, well then that's that there's no more questions, you know? Yeah, it's just like I feel I have a hard time blaming anyone, especially like you said, with hindsight. Anyway, so she didn't want to pry, so she kind of just let her be and dropped her off at home at 3:30. Briana wrote a note to her roommate Jillian, that was the childhood friend, saying she'd be home late after her shift tonight at the Black Lantern Inn. And she went to work. It was a busy night and by the time the kitchen was clean and everyone clocked out just before 11:30, Brianna was absolutely exhausted. Her co workers were hanging out, but she said, I have to go to my other job early in the morning, so I'm going to go home and I'm not going to hang out, I'm going to go to bed. So they watched her walk through the parking lot, get in her car and drive away alone. So that was Friday night that she had done that shift. She had a shift early the next morning, Saturday morning, so she went home to go to bed. So they watched her leave. Now Sunday rolls around and Jillian, she had actually been out for the weekend. She was visiting friends or family out of town. So she comes back on Sunday and she notices that note that had been left on Friday was still there, and it hadn't been moved or touched. And she thought that was a little odd. And Brianna wasn't in the house, but Jillian said, okay, well, maybe she just stayed with her parents over the weekend. So she wasn't really worried until Tuesday, March 23, when Brianna still was not home. And keep in mind, the car was found on the 20th. This is three days that they could have contacted the family and said, we found the car.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Three days.

[B]

Yeah. I'm pissed for them.

[A]

Me, too. So Jillian calls Kelly and she asks if Brianna's there at the farm. And Kelly says, no, she should be with you at home. And so they hang up, and Kelly starts calling around, just calling Brianna's friends, boyfriends. Nobody has seen her in a couple days. So Kelly speaks to Brianna's employers, and basically everyone figured out that no one had seen Briana since Friday night after her shift. So all day Saturday, where she was supposed to have that shift and all that other. Other stuff. Her roommate was out of town. Nobody knew she was missing, but she hadn't been seen since Friday night.

[B]

Wow. And sorry, remind me, how many days before was the. They go to the store, and she goes, oh. And she.

[A]

So that was on Friday. That was the same day. That was the morning that was basically the last day she'd ever been seen. Oh, God.

[B]

That's heartbreaking. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And so her mom dropped her off, and basically that was her mom's last experience. Experience with her basically regretting not asking more questions about why she was upset after the way that.

[B]

I mean, no one can fault. Nobody can fault this mom the way that she faults herself.

[A]

Exactly. Because people go. I mean, ballistic. Like, people are, like, to the point of violence, cruel to this woman. It's like she didn't kill her daughter. Jesus.

[B]

Like, she has played that thought over and over her head without you having to tell her.

[A]

Exactly. Like you said, no one's gonna be as mean to her as she probably is to herself about that or had, you know, probably has the capacity to. Hopefully she doesn't. Hopefully she's healed and, you know, not doing that. But it's just like, give it a rest, people. Like, as if you would do everything right. You know, not knowing that disaster was about to strike. So anyway, Kelly spoke to Brianna's employer. She basically realized nobody'd seen her since Friday. And by now, that was five days ago. So five days have passed before anyone even realized. And it could have been one. One night. Like, they could have touched base, but it's, again, hindsight. So Kelly, her mom, called her husband, Bruce, and he was in New York on business, but he just jumped in his car. He drove overnight straight home. And her mom reported Brianna missing to the police. They notified all local officers because Brianna is 17, she's a minor, and so all local officers are notified. So Kelly tried to think of where Brianna might go if she left without telling anyone. And one of the people she thought about was her aunt Tammy. Brianna was very close with her aunt Tammy Fisher in Pittsburgh. So she called Tammy, and when Tammy didn't pick up, Kelly left a message to call right away if Brianna showed up at her door. So Tammy gets home and basically gets a voicemail. Like, if you see Briana at your.

[B]

Door, call me immediately.

[A]

Bring her inside and call me immediately. And Tammy's like, what the hell is going on? You know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So Brianna's friend Shawna didn't believe Brianna would leave without telling anyone. And she said in an interview, interview, she had a big heart. She would never do that to anybody. Like, she would never, in that regard, like, leave town and just not tell her mom and leave her mom to be terrified. You know what I mean? So the next thing Kelly and Bruce did was trace Brianna's steps back. So they thought of the last place Brianna had been seen, and they went to the Black Lantern Inn to kind of look around. And this was extremely painful because. Because just like another one of those weird hindsight is 2020 moments. The night that Friday that Brianna was at work, her dad suggested to her mom, hey, why don't we just stop inside and say hi and see how her job is going? And her mom said, oh, gosh, I don't want to embarrass her. She's going to be so mad if we, like, march in there and like.

[B]

Oh, now another thing that she kicks herself for.

[A]

Yes. And now that her boss is going to be like, oh, now her parents are involved, you know, because she's 17 and, like, she wants to be independent. And so her mom was like, I don't know. I don't want to, like, push it. So they. They kept their hands off. And of course, after that, all they wish is that they had just overridden that concern and gone into her one more time.

[B]

Yeah, you would have no clue. There's.

[A]

And, like, if nothing had happened and you did go in, maybe she would have been pissed off and you would have started a fight. And. Yeah, who knows? Like, it's just. It's hard to say that. That was. It's just an unfortunate thing.

[B]

It's just all the what ifs.

[A]

It's unfortunate. It's a what if. Yes. And so they kept driving, and of course, now they wish they'd stopped. So they went to the state police on March 25, and that had. That was six days since Brianna had last been seen. And that's when they found out that five days ago, Brianna's car had been discovered in a field. And their hearts just sank. So despite this notice going out about Brianna being a missing minor and the state police reporting the vehicle as belonging to Brianna, law enforcement just hadn't even made. Made that connection yet. It wasn't until they asked what kind of car she drove that police were.

[B]

Like, oh, wait, hang on. That. Why does that ring a bell?

[A]

Why did. Why are two people named Brianna Maitland? So Brianna's brother was able to locate the car where it had gotten towed, which was an auto shop, and her dad, Bruce, used a crowbar to pry open the trunk. Now, imagine in this moment, they were worried. She could be.

[B]

She could be in there. Yeah. I can't imagine being a dad thinking, dude, I don't even want to open this.

[A]

But, right. And it's like, your son offers, and it's like, well, no, I don't want her brother to do it. You know, I mean, somebody has to do it. That's just awful. So, of course he pries it open. There must be, like, relief and concern when you open it and she's not in there. They only found some boxes of her childhood keepsakes, along with some important belongings that Brianna was storing for a friend. So they get the car back, and a search effort is. Is launched. Volunteers are called, local businesses put up flyers. Meanwhile, Tammy's in Pittsburgh, and she's just gotten this voicemail, but she has no clue what's going on.

[B]

No one's answering their phone unless it's, like, the police right now.

[A]

You're exactly. That's exactly what happened. She said, I keep calling. The. The line just keeps ringing like no one's picking up. I am getting more and more concerned, she says. She turns on the TV and Brianna's face is on the local news. And she goes, holy. So she. I just got chills. She gets in her car, and she just drives to Vermont without thinking or stopping. And so everyone's now on the ground. They are looking. But weeks pass. There are no leads. There's a foundation from 1994 called the Class Kids Foundation. And Poly Class was the reason that this. This organization had begun. So volunteers from Claus Kids were there. They organized a volunteer search eff effort to scour an entire 5 mile radius surrounding the abandoned house where her car was found. But canines didn't find anything. Search teams didn't find anything. But the publicity did help. It turns out multiple people saw Brianna's car at the abandoned house the night she disappeared. Not only that, some people had taken pictures because they just thought it was such a strange thing to stop stumble upon.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So as for the sightings themselves, I'll start with this one guy who drove by it between 11:30pm and 12:30am and remember she left work around 11:30. So okay, so within an hour, within an hour of her leaving, this guy spotted it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He noted that the headlights were on which is why it was like strange.

[B]

But he didn't an eerie as probably.

[A]

Right with the back of it inside a barn, an abandoned barn. I mean Jesus Christ.

[B]

I will say as a, as a teenager think I that would have been like, oh, our time to go explore.

[A]

Let's figure out what's going on. Absolutely.

[B]

And in 2004, MySpace era, of course you're going to take pictures of everything. Cuz you think it's like a cool, cool artsy pics. It like wouldn't even occur to me. Like this is a tragedy like crime scene potentially.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would, I would literally have just been like oh my God, let's go adventure. Like I'm such, I'm such a piece of.

[A]

But I mean it's children. We're, we were kids, we didn't know. But I mean yes, it was ignorant but yes, I agree would have been like this is so cool.

[B]

I mean like wow, let's take a picture in front of this for an artsy pic.

[A]

Wait till my crush sees this.

[B]

Yeah. And then all of a sudden it's like the police need your photographs immediately.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It didn't end up being any teens, so there's that. But this guy saw it. So they have this guy placing it there between 10 and 60 minutes after Brianna left work. And the headlights are on and he did not see anyone in or around the vehicle. Then we have another person. Between midnight and 12:30 a driver noticed the vehicle and reported that one of the turn signals was blinking.

[B]

Oh, so do we know if it was blinking?

[A]

No, I think it was just one person drove by, said oh it looks like the lights are on. Somebody else maybe slowed down and said oh I see a turn signal. You know, maybe they just didn't see it. And same Thing. Nobody, nobody around. He said it could have been one turn signal or maybe even the hazards. He wasn't sure. At 4am, Brianna's ex boyfriend was driving by on his way home from a party and was like, is that my ex girlfriend's car? So he pulled over and he looked around but didn't see anything. So he left thinking like, okay, she must have just gotten wasted or something and left the car here. So later that morning two more people passed by the scene and these people took photos because it was just such a strange sight and it was morning.

[B]

God, someone did I. So I will say in 2004, like if you didn't have a literal camera with you, I don't think you could.

[A]

Take pictures or just like one of those really grainy old like mobile phones. But yeah, yeah, yeah, you'd need like an actual digital camera or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And one of the photographs actually caught stuff that they didn't know because it had been five days previously. No one had taken photos when the car was found. So when you looked at some one of these photos. Photographs. You could see stuff on the ground that had fallen out of the car. Oh yes. And so now they're seeing loose change, a water bottle and jewelry on the side of the car on the ground. And so it sort of indicates somebody climbed out of the car or there was some frenzy, something happened where things got dropped and nobody picked them back up.

[B]

And it indicates that someone came by, saw the car and took those items or, or maybe animals.

[A]

That could be. That could be. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I assume so. You're right because I imagine they would have by then gone to the farmhouse and seen her jewelry if it was still there, you know, or it feels like.

[B]

Which that's eerier that someone saw there was this crisis and stole all the stuff and then didn't report what they'd seen.

[A]

Well, I mean if it's just an abandoned car and there's just like a necklace on the ground, I think my brain wouldn't be like, oh, I'm calling them, you know, Especially if it's just like a 17 year old girl's necklace, like not fancy or just like a bracelet, you know, I don't know. I don't think it would even occur to me that I would have to nowadays probably. But maybe it could just be a.

[B]

Crow who likes shiny things and just took coins.

[A]

Or it's a raven and he brought him to a friend. Exactly. Could be. Could be. So based on these witness report Timelines. Brianna's car was abandoned less than an hour before she or after she left work. So investigators started looking at people in Briana's life. The incident where she. She had gotten beaten up by that girl at the party was only three weeks earlier, so that was still like, pretty fresh on everyone's mind. After the attack, her friend Shawna actually convinced Brianna to report it to the police, but Brianna was really worried it would make things worse. But she did go to the police, and her assailant, whose name was Keely Lacrosse was subpoenaed for questioning about the assault. And when Shauna apparently asked Keeley about the assault charges after Brianna went missing, Keely apparently said smugly, well, nothing's going to be happening because Bri's not around right now. Which I feel like they thought was so sinister, but I'm like, it's also another teenage girl who probably just thinks you're running away.

[B]

Or like, that really is the theme of today's episode.

[A]

You're so right.

[B]

They were 16. Like, it's. That's kind of.

[A]

Can we not put a little perspective on this? You know?

[B]

Like, it's like, did everyone just magically forget what it was like to be a teenager generally?

[A]

So. Because it just feels like people aren't connecting the dots in some ways.

[B]

Because honestly, if a teenager. Here's my thought. If I. If I were a cop today and a teenager said something like, where they were trying to look tough, I know they didn't do it.

[A]

Yeah, it's sort of like you wouldn't say it if you killed her. Well, I mean, maybe you would because you're a stupid teenager. I don't know. But you're right. Like, I just feel like they're. Everything's with a grain of salt, especially if you're talking to teenage friends, frenemies. Right. Like, right, she talked to my boyfriend, blah, blah.

[B]

Also, like, how. And maybe, maybe I have forgotten a little about what it's like to be a teenager, but I guess, how intensely was Brianna flirting with your guy for you to first of all ever beat the out of her that badly once, but then to like, have a three week, like, beef afterwards, well.

[A]

Well, she pressed charges. So suddenly there's a trial. And so it's like, wow. Well, I mean, she beat the out of her. So it's like, yeah, now there's this trial and now she's being subpoenaed. And when you're right, okay, I see Brianna goes missing. It's like, well, now you don't have to now the charges are going to be dropped, you know, so it is convenient. Right? But Keely, of course, you know, because. Well, not of course, I suppose, but I'll tell you now that she was ruled out as a suspect in Brianna's disappearance. And Brianna's family was, as we've probably already kind of hinted at, they were frustrated with the investigation. Oh yeah. One leading investigator in 2004 said, we have continued to be skeptical that this could be a case involving foul play. In other words, they literally think she still just ran away with uncashed paychecks in her car, left the lights on, didn't bring the car with her.

[B]

I don't agree.

[A]

She also left her migraine medication, which she brought in everywhere. And other things like, like the uncashed paychecks. Why on earth would a teenager leave money just sitting in their car? Why would they leave their car? Just none of it makes sense. No, all her important, important personal belongings in the trunk, her friend stuff. I mean, it's just. It's just too weird. So Bruce, her dad, took matters into his own hands at this point. He went to the Black Lantern Inn and questioned Brianna's co workers himself, trying to understand what might have happened the night she, she vanished. And they told him Brianna seemed pretty normal. She was in a good mood. Nothing appeared off to them. The Maitlands put their phone number out there for calls and they received tips from all over the country. Of course, a lot of them were useless and like happens every time. Some of them were just cruel. People told Kelly Brianna was tied up to a tree in the woods. People said she'd been thrown into a river, dismembered and fed. Fed to pigs. People are just sick. Like they will just take any chance to just.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

With someone. It's. It's horrible.

[B]

It's evil.

[A]

A police officer gave a sworn statement that a local woman told him Brianna was murdered and dismembered by men Brianna knew who are both known drug dealers in the area. But it was just one woman's story. And even though the officer swore it was just rumors, you know, it's only speculation. There's no evidence, no actual, actual proof of, of where she could be or of these two men's involvement. So there were rumors flying, of course, that she had some, like, troubled life, this double life, you know, some secrets. She did sometimes go to parties where people use substances like cocaine, marijuana. She had tried a few drugs, but very casually. She said she, you know, her friends said no, she was not an active drug user. Like, maybe every now and then she would smoke pot with friends. Or she had tried crack cocaine at one point, but only once and then hadn't done it again. So just even police said, like, as far as we're concerned, drugs didn't. She wasn't strung out on drugs. She didn't have a drug problem.

[B]

You know, maybe the person that did this, because I, like, had she maybe met that person during that one experience. Maybe, but I don't think she was on.

[A]

Like, there might be a connection in terms of how they know each other. Right, Exactly. But there's no. Nobody seemed to indicate that Brianna was struggling substance use. I mean, contrary was true. She was working two jobs and she was earning her diploma.

[B]

She had to be pretty clear minded.

[A]

Yeah. Like, she even left work when everyone was hanging out at 11:30 because she was like, I have to get some sleep. Like, you know, she was taking her life seriously. And basically, investigators said any. Any involvement with drugs was just conjecture, and they didn't think that that really held much weight. But of course, they kept looking into tips just in case. So one anonymous caller reported that Brianna was being held against her will by a drug ring. And they indicated this farmhouse about 11 miles from where Brianna was last seen. And when they raided this farmhouse, they recovered marijuana, cocaine, and at least one gun. And when they interviewed the occupants, they claimed to know Brianna, but they denied knowing where she was. Jillian did know one of the men who lived there because Brianna had brought him over for several weeks before she disappeared. And other people had also seen Priyana with this group at parties. But there was no evidence that they were involved in the disappearance, just that they had ties to each other. So fixated on the drug use track, someone involved in the case told reporters that Brianna owed money for drugs. And a newspaper ran with it, and the headline read, police Missing teen has Drug Drug debt.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

There was not a single piece of evidence for this claim whatsoever, aside from rumor. And Kelly, her mom later said, I don't portray my daughter as an angel. I think she was trying to get her life on track. I think she went to a couple parties. But to come out like this was kind of a way to blame the victim. And I totally agree. It's like saying she disappeared, she has drugged it. First of all, who cares? And also, no, I also. That's bad.

[B]

I don't. I, Yeah, I also just don't buy it. Like, I just. I mean, who am I to say.

[A]

Yeah, okay, it simply wasn't true. So there's outrage. Real Outrage from family friends, other people who supported the family. And the newspaper actually published a retraction. The police apologized.

[B]

Yeah, but you can't. You can't ring the bell.

[A]

No, you can't unring a bell. It's, like, hurtful and interesting. Interestingly enough, a family whose daughter was also missing contacted the Maitland, suspecting that maybe the cases were related. This was a case that I covered in episode eight, which also has the honor of being our first fight, which was when you were mad at me about going to the Queen Mary, because apparently I said I would go with you, and then I forgot, and then I went with my mom.

[B]

We obviously resolved that. I think we're fine.

[A]

Yeah. Fix that eventually. But more Murray. She disappeared. She was 21 years old. She had disappeared just one month before Brianna in New Hampshire. So pretty close by. And so that her. Maura. Murray's family reached out and said, like, maybe our cases are linked. Like Rihanna, Maura was in a car accident when she vanished. Her car was found. She was not. However, a passing motorist stopped to assist Maura and spoke with her before reporting the accident and before Maura vanished. So it was slightly different. She had been seen outside her vehicle.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Maura was unharmed, but by the time authorities arrived, she was gone, and her car was left there. The cases were eerily similar, but investigators ultimately decided that they were unrelated. Maura remains missing today, unfortunately. I hate that. I have to say that after covering it in episode eight, it's just, like, very soap. Sobering fact. Two years passed, and in 2006, someone reported seeing a woman who looked like Brianna playing blackjack at a casino in New Jersey. So Brianna's family reviewed the video, and her brother immediately said it wasn't her, but her mom thought it might be. So the media published the video, hoping the woman in the video could come forward and see if it was Brianna. But no one responded. So the Maitlands had to decide if this was worth pursuing or not. So Kelly agonized because she was like, I. I haven't seen my daughter in two years. Like, maybe she's grown or cut her hair. Like, maybe I'd.

[B]

Or maybe she's trying to hide from whoever.

[A]

Something.

[B]

Or even, like, I think about Elizabeth Smart, who they were disguising her in public, right?

[A]

Like, and I think the other part of it is that, like, you know, she wants it to be her daughter, but she also doesn't want to waste a lead like a resource if it's not her. And she's just having wishful thinking. So she really has to say, like, is this an avenue I want to pers.

[B]

Oh, that's so terrible.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

Because then if you say, no part of you is going to think, like, I should have done this.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. So she's. And so she doesn't know what to do. But editors are actually able to enhance. You know how much I love when I say that.

[B]

I love when they do it. Especially in the 90s and everything turns out high definition.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

And Elliot Stabler is, like, somehow not impressed.

[A]

It's amazing how they zoom in and it gets sharper every time. And I'm like, that's not how pixels work. Like, the further you zoom in, the not clearer it gets.

[B]

Especially when they zoom in from space. That's when they're like, let me zoom in on this blade of grass from Mars. Oh, my God, I can see every microbe on it.

[A]

It's as if somebody CGI'd it into the screen. Yeah. So apparently editors were able to enhance this particular footage, which was really great and also tragic because Kelly could see when Brianna turned her head a certain way that this was not Brianna just still look alike.

[B]

Oh, God. It's like. And it just, like, with her dad opening up the trunk, it's like, do you want. It's like to be released?

[A]

And also, like, disappointment. Yeah. It must be the most conflicting feeling, you know, like, you want to get answers, but you don't want specific answers.

[B]

Also, like, how many times can you be kicked when you're down? Like, how much defeat can you take? Like, eventually. It's just crazy making to be like, where the. Is she?

[A]

It must just be like, so gutting. Like, you don't even know what to do. So, yeah. Yeah. Like, basically what you said, they're back to square one. So in 2016, now we're fast forwarding about 12 years. Investigators announced that they had recovered DNA from items recovered in and around Brianna's vehicle. Okay, so in 2022. Now, that was six years after that, police announced that the DNA matched one of 11 individuals they had spoken to throughout the investigation. However, they said the DNA is not enough to make that individual. Individual a suspect. And they won't comment on any other evidence collected because it's an active, ongoing investigation.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

So as of March of 2024, and just for context right now, folks, as we record, it's January 2025. In March of 2024, which was 20 years since Brianna was last seen, the FBI offered up a $40,000 reward for information leading to. To Brianna oh, my God. And her father believes she's no longer living, but of course still wants answers.

[B]

Yeah, I hope so.

[A]

And he said, I don't think she's still out there walking around, but for as long as I'm alive, I'll do everything to find her. I mean, it just sounds like these, it's just their whole lives get taken over by this.

[B]

No, I mean, you never get to just have a happy, fulfilled, fully fulfilling.

[A]

You just can't. Yeah, it's like your world's just on.

[B]

A totally different closure.

[A]

Not there. I can't. It's totally different access. You're just like, I sounds terrible.

[B]

I, yeah. And even if it's like, I just want clo Like I just want to know, like, I, I good or bad.

[A]

Just an answer to, to put her to rest, you know, and like, to be able to rest yourself.

[B]

Do they have any personal guesses on what happened?

[A]

Yeah, actually, many people still suspect that Brianna was murdered by one of her friends she used to party with. Even like you said, she maybe was not a regular drug user, but occasionally and recreationally. And the people she hung out with, you know, were varying levels of drug users, substance users, and so who knows if somebody took something or she got mixed up in the wrong dealing, like, who knows? I mean, people have been murdered for much less. Maybe somebody just wanted to hurt her, or maybe they had a gun and that's why she didn't fight back. You never know. But basically, people suspect that she was murdered by at least her, you know, the, the most. The primary theory is that somebody she knew, or perhaps an ex, someone personal, had murdered her that night.

[B]

Yeah, I, I Do we think that, like, her, like, the car being backed into a wall. Do we think, like, the guy was in the backseat and she was trying.

[A]

To, like, you know, I don't know.

[B]

Get rid of him or something or.

[A]

You know, it could have been that. It could have been, like, maybe she was trying to turn around and accidentally back the car and someone said, oh, don't worry, I'll give you a ride. Like, but then also, like, she wouldn't have left the lights on in the car.

[B]

No, I, I, I, I think that the, I think someone was hiding in her car or carjacked her or something. And I think she was trying to either intentionally throw the car, like if he was, like, hiding in the back or something. I think she was trying to either back the car up and hit, like, not jostle him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or I think, think that if someone carjacked her and was sitting in the passenger seat and holding a gun to her. I think there was like a, like a, a frenzy over, like, who had.

[A]

Control of the wheel and jerking the wheel.

[B]

Yeah. Something happened where it accidentally went. And then he just ends it up thinking, okay, well, now we don't have a car, I have to drag you away.

[A]

I think something, how terrifying I, I.

[B]

I think there was because you're right.

[A]

I mean, to leave the car with lights on, signals blinking, thinking, to a.

[B]

Building, something bad happened in the car.

[A]

Stuff on the ground and her nowhere to be seen.

[B]

Like, that's something happened in the car. I'm surprised that, like, the police didn't, like, look for more evidence in the car, like, swab it.

[A]

Like, well, that's what happened is they got it towed and then it was too late because they didn't check. I mean, they have stuff that they check for DNA and they have found some DNA, but at the time it was like they could have taken pictures. They could have looked much more closely at the crash itself, I think, I.

[B]

Mean, like, I'm more surprised that there wasn't like a single hair sample or something of someone else in the car. Like, I don't know. I mean, I guess, I mean, we.

[A]

Don'T know because it says that they have DNA from recovery in the vehicle. So we don't know if that's a hair. We don't know if that's just someone's.

[B]

Not in the system yet or something.

[A]

Well, no, it says that they have hair or. Sorry, not hair. They have DNA, miss. Matching one of the 11 people they spoke with. But just because they have their DNA, it doesn't mean they're suspect because maybe they wrote in the back seat one time on the way to work, maybe they were an ex. And of course she was wearing their sweatshirt. You know, it's like even though they know whose DNA it is, they have not announced it, presumably because they're cleared in some way. Well, I don't think so. I think they're actively probably c. Oh, oh. They're saying, you know, this person's not a suspect yet. But we're not going to say anything because it's an active investigation, so, so maybe, maybe they have further to test. I mean, I'm hoping, you know, these things move so slow, but I'm hoping that if, if in March they were, you know, still actively pursuing this, that maybe we'll get some answers. And, and her dad, for what it's worth, says I was always concerned about some of her relationships and those were some of the first things the police looked into. I also spoke with some of those people myself. In the end, those people that I had initially thought might have had some. Something to do with. I no longer believe that. So even he's like, the people that were top of the list, like, just don't make sense to me. And, you know, who would know better?

[B]

Right? Then, like, I think it was a freak accident. I mean, I also, like, I'm aware. Who am I to have an opinion on this? But if I were to, like, make up a theory, my first thought would be it was some sort of, like, carjacking or she picked up a hitchhiker in the middle of the woods.

[A]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[B]

And she was just trying to be nice, but then they. They got into some sort of fight in the car or struggle.

[A]

I mean. Good point. It wouldn't be the first time she's picked up a hitchhiker, right?

[B]

Like, yeah, I don't know. Or maybe she. Maybe it was someone she even recognized, and she was like, oh, get in the car. I'll. I'll.

[A]

Yeah, maybe someone needed a ride or something, you know, who knows?

[B]

Yeah, I don't.

[A]

And then they carjacked her or.

[B]

Because it doesn't look like. It doesn't seem like there was a struggle until leaving the car.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So I. I think it was either she was doing something kind, or it seemed like it was a friend of a friend, or maybe it was someone from, like, that random. Honestly, maybe it was someone from a random. One time she was doing drugs and she didn't know that he was high as a kite in that moment and decided to, like, maybe he offered her drugs, she didn't want to take them.

[A]

Maybe somebody came on to her and she said no. You know, who knows? Like, I mean, again, one of the least crazy theories, right? Like, what people will do, how people will harm each other. It's just. It's just heartbreaking that, like, there's so many possibilities and we just don't know what it is. And her family doesn't know what it is. And so I have a couple more bullets left, basically. In a recent statement, the director of the Vermont State Police said, we remain as dedicated to this case now as we were when Brianna disappeared. This is not a cold case. It is an un unsolved one. So Brianna's family created a Facebook page to uphold the memory of Brianna and draw continued attention to her case. And they hope that, you know, someday someone will maybe report something that seems innocuous but breaks open the case. And, you know, they can finally bring Bri home, whether that be alive or past and in spirit or in real life and at least get some closure. So that is the story of Brianna Maitland. And when Saoirse suggested this, I was like, holy. Because I thought, like, maybe there had been some break and that's why it was like. But no, alas, I mean, it. There has been a break, this DNA, you know, but it's been almost what, 10 years, nine years since that. So, yeah, things just take so long, you know, and it's like, I wish I could have a. A Google alert for every case I want to keep up with, but it's like, I don't even know how I.

[B]

Would do that, man. Well, yeah, I hope that I. I don't think there's a way that her parents could ever have full closure and her brother, but I hope they're okay.

[A]

I know, I know. Me too.

[B]

Hopefully it's a story you will give us an update on one day and it will be positive update.

[A]

And Maura Murray, man, I would really like to. I would like to see those families get some closure. I would. Some answers.

[B]

Well, thank you everyone for tuning in to heartbreak, but it's intrigue and love it. If you for some reason like to hear us talking and you'd like to hear us talk more, you can head on over to our Yappy Hour. You could also see us talk alive if you want to go buy tickets for our live show. That feels like a weird plug. So close to such a sad story. But if you want us in your ear holes, there are other places you can find us beyond this episode.

[A]

And as of right now, you can probably hit JD Vance's followers and we're probably on there again, even though I've unfollowed like three times. So, yeah, no, we can. You can follow us. ATWD podcast for as long as we're on any platform. I don't know anymore what is happening in the world.

[B]

You can find us on Tick Tock if you'd like to hear some.

[A]

If you want Uncanny Valley.

[B]

Some Uncanny Valley versions of us. And yeah, we'll see you over at Yappy Hour.

[A]

Yeah, see you there. And oh, oh, wait, sorry. I want to add for Yappy Hour, I have a brand new Victorian photograph I bought from an estate sale, so I'll be showing those.

[B]

So if you'd like a show and tell as your palate cleanser from these stories, you can head over there. And that's why we drink.