Listener Stories: Vol. 103

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink – Listener Stories: Vol. 103

Release Date: May 1, 2025
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Podcast: And That's Why We Drink
Episode Title: Listener Stories: Vol. 103

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And That's Why We Drink, hosted by Christine Schiefer and Em Schulz, masterfully blends chilling ghost tales with gripping true crime narratives. In Episode 103, "Listener Stories: Vol. 103," the hosts delve into a series of listener-submitted stories that range from haunting personal experiences to intense true crime accounts. Recorded in a hotel setting, the episode offers an intimate and engaging experience, punctuated by the hosts' relatable banter and insightful commentary.

Setting the Scene

The episode opens with Christine and Em settling into their hotel environment, sharing lighthearted conversations about travel quirks and personal anecdotes. This casual start establishes a comfortable atmosphere, inviting listeners to feel as though they're part of a friendly, intimate gathering.

Notable Quote:

Christine [02:06]: "It's May and we're five twelfths done. Technically, four twelfths done. We're a third done."

Listener Story 1: My Grandma's Third Man Story

Christine introduces the first listener story titled "My Grandma's Third Man Story," sharing a deeply personal and haunting account of her grandmother's near-death experience and the concept of third man syndrome—a phenomenon where a spiritual or guardian presence intervenes during life-threatening situations.

Summary: Christine recounts how her grandmother, Nancy, faced severe health challenges, including Crohn's disease and breast cancer. Six months before Christine's birth, Nancy was hospitalized and experienced a terrifying moment where a mysterious nurse warned her against trusting her doctors, asserting that her IV was merely sugar water and that she couldn't die yet. This intervention was perceived by Nancy as a guardian angel's presence, ultimately leading to her survival and the family's flourishing.

Notable Quotes:

Christine [09:16]: "When my grandmother was in her late 40s... She told me a nurse came into her room... 'Do not trust this doctor. They are trying to kill you.'"

Em [14:04]: "It's moments like that where I'm like, there must be a reason that people are here..."

The hosts engage in a reflective discussion about the story's emotional weight and its implications on faith and justice, highlighting the impact such experiences have on personal beliefs and family dynamics.

Listener Story 2: The Future Murderer Who Slept in My Grandparents' Garage

The second story comes from a listener named Elta, who narrates a harrowing true crime tale involving her uncle Rick and a man named Bob Knott. This narrative unfolds as a series of unfortunate events leading to murder and chaos.

Summary: Bob Knott, a troubled individual with a violent past, escapes from an institution and embarks on a spree of kidnappings and robberies across multiple states. His relentless criminal activities culminate in a violent confrontation at the grandparents' garage, resulting in Bob's arrest after a shootout that claims innocent lives. The story exposes systemic failures in law enforcement and the tragic outcomes of unchecked criminal behavior.

Notable Quotes:

Em [48:40]: "In his youth, my uncle, we'll call him Rick, was friends with a kid named Bob Knott... Bob watched his mom murder his dad."

Christine [56:02]: "And there is a movie that was made about him in '91 called Captive. And Bob is played by John Stamos."

The hosts express their disbelief and sorrow over the series of tragedies, emphasizing the importance of awareness and justice in such cases.

Listener Story 3: Unsolved Murder in a Town I Lived In

Andrea shares a chilling unsolved murder case from her hometown of Canyon City, Colorado. This story underscores issues of police corruption and the vilification of victims, shedding light on systemic neglect in solving crimes against Indigenous women.

Summary: Andrea recounts the murder of her Aunt Alice in 1962, where official reports falsely attributed her death to an "irate boyfriend." Despite overwhelming evidence pointing to foul play, including witness accounts and mishandled crime scenes, the truth remained obscured due to police corruption and societal prejudices. The story emphasizes the pervasive issue of Missing and Murdered Indigenous Persons (MMIP) and calls for greater awareness and justice.

Notable Quotes:

Christine [57:37]: "Years back I moved to Canyon City, Colorado with my shitty ex-boyfriend... the new owner found evidence linked to the 2006 homicide of 17-year-old Candace Hiltz."

Em [33:19]: "Johnny was often unfaithful to Claire and they separated, but remained close... Claire frequently stated that they had met too young and weren't ready for that kind of commitment."

The hosts commend Andrea for her bravery in sharing such a painful and significant story, highlighting the ongoing struggle for justice among Indigenous communities.

Listener Story 4: Unexpected Consequences of Throwing Away Stuff

Trina offers a cautionary tale about the unforeseen ramifications of discarding seemingly innocuous items. Her story intertwines personal experiences with the broader theme of fate and unintended connections.

Summary: Trina narrates her experience of cleaning out her husband's belongings, where she unknowingly discarded an autographed photo of Patsy Ramsey—a connection that later ties into the infamous JonBenét Ramsey murder case. This accidental disposal of a significant artifact underscores how small actions can have profound and unexpected impacts, blending personal life with notorious true crime history.

Notable Quotes:

Em [60:21]: "When my husband and I first moved in together in '93, one of my first priorities was getting rid of a bunch of his junk to make space for my junk."

Christine [63:26]: "I didn't even think about that."

The hosts humorously yet thoughtfully discuss the implications of Trina's story, reflecting on how mundane actions can intersect with major historical events.

Hosts' Reflections and Interactions

Throughout the episode, Christine and Em interweave their personal reflections and humorous exchanges, providing depth and relatability to the intense stories shared. Their discussions often delve into themes of trust, justice, and the human condition, enhancing the listener's connection to the narratives.

Notable Quote:

Christine [34:12]: "I want to be so clear... I don't think you have to forgive somebody. No. I think that's not fair to ask of you."

Em [44:39]: "Mind boggling. If you made it through this novel of a story, bless your heart and thank you for sticking with me."

Their candid conversations offer a balance between the gravity of the stories and the comforting camaraderie that defines the podcast's unique charm.

Conclusion and Call to Action

In wrapping up the episode, Christine emphasizes the importance of bringing justice to victims and encourages listeners to participate by submitting their own stories for future episodes. She also highlights the significance of MMIP Awareness Day on May 5th, urging the audience to support and amplify the voices of those affected by Missing and Murdered Indigenous Persons cases.

Notable Quote:

Christine [39:03]: "I am an enrolled Kuruk tribal member and my journey as an MMIP activist began with the murder of my aunt... I won't stop fighting to get justice for my aunts."

The episode concludes with heartfelt thanks to the listeners for their engagement and support, reinforcing the podcast's mission to shed light on often-overlooked stories of tragedy and resilience.

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Key Takeaways:

• Third Man Syndrome: Explored through Christine's grandmother's near-death experience, highlighting the intersection of personal faith and miraculous intervention.

• Systemic Failures in Law Enforcement: Through Elta's and Andrea's stories, the episode underscores the challenges in achieving justice for marginalized individuals, particularly Indigenous women.

• Unintended Consequences: Trina's narrative serves as a reminder of how seemingly trivial actions can have far-reaching effects, blending personal anecdotes with true crime lore.

• Community and Justice: The hosts emphasize the importance of community support and active participation in seeking justice for victims, urging listeners to contribute their stories and advocate for systemic change.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Christine [09:16]: "When my grandmother was in her late 40s... 'Do not trust this doctor. They are trying to kill you.'"

• Em [48:40]: "Bob watched his mom murder his dad... and was institutionalized... eventually died by suicide in prison."

• Christine [57:37]: "Candace had been really outspoken about how corrupt the police force is..."

• Trina [60:21]: "I found a cardboard box full of crap, including an 8 by 10 glossy black and white photo of a former Miss West Virginia that was signed for him."

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This episode of And That's Why We Drink is a compelling blend of personal stories and true crime, delivered with the hosts' signature warmth and insightful commentary. It serves as both a source of chilling entertainment and a call to action for justice and awareness within communities. Whether you're a long-time listener or new to the podcast, Episode 103 offers a poignant reminder of the power of storytelling in uncovering hidden truths and fostering understanding.

Transcript

[Christine]

So have you ever been speed dating? Have you? I haven't. That's cool. Well, apparently if you're the owner of a growing business, imagine that there's speed dating, but for hiring people. That's kind of what we did when we went through people who applied to be Eva and all of a sudden it was like, here's Eva in the middle of this beautiful pile of. Of. And we did the speed dating and. And she sat down and we said, ding, ding, ding.

[Em]

If you were hoping for some sort of speed dating for you when it comes to a job search or an employee search, well, good news there is. It's zip intro from ZipRecruiter and you can post your job today and start talking to qualified candidates tomorrow. And right now, you can try Zip Intro for free at ziprecruiter.com Drink Zip.

[Christine]

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[Em]

Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with new Zip Intro only from ZipRecruiter, rated number one hiring site based on G2. Try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com.

[Christine]

Drink again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Drink Zip Intro post jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow.

[Em]

Fellas, you know Degree Cool Rush deodorant, right? Well, last year they changed the formula and guys were mad about it. One dude even started a petition.

[Christine]

So.

[Em]

So guess what? Degree heard us, admitted they messed up and brought the original Cool Rush scent back exactly how it was. And it's in Walmart, Target and other stores now for under $4. So grab some and remember why its cool, crisp and fresh scent made it the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. Degree Cool Rush is back, and it smells like victory for all of.

[Christine]

Hello everyone. Welcome to a very special episode being recorded in a hotel. Again, as usual, the rumors are true.

[Em]

It's May and we're five twelfths done. Technically, four twelfths done. We're a third done.

[Christine]

Twelfth is done. Yeah, we're four.

[Em]

We're third done. Now that's the beginning of our. The second. The second. What's. What would you say instead of like, you know how like finance bros are like, oh, in Q2, the second quarter trimester yeah. So you're in your second trimester now. Congratulations, everybody.

[Christine]

Trimester of the year. The baby is kicking it. It's starting to outgrow all. It's starting to create a lot of problems.

[Em]

Maybe. Maybe we now have fingernails, and we're not causing people morning sickness. Is that what second trimester is?

[Christine]

Yeah. Typically, that's when you get a boost of energy. You start feeling. The nesting starts to kick in.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

You feel less nauseated, usually, hopefully. And you find out the sex of the baby. And there's a lot of exciting things.

[Em]

In the second trimester, so happy second trimester, everyone. We did it.

[Christine]

Oh, my gosh, folks. And what did we have to go through? Only four months of hell being in the United States, but we did it. We got a third of the way through it.

[Em]

Congratulations, Christine. Tell everybody, while we're in our Kansas City hotels, tell us about your silly little hat. What's going on?

[Christine]

Oh, my gosh. I love my little hat. He's a rainbow trout. I'm all about it. We were at this place called Ozark land. Ozark Land. Thank you. And we were driving through Missouri, and of course, Em fell asleep. So I veered off the highway and went to Ozark Land. Promptly, Em woke up and said, oh, good. I'm glad I've woken up for this.

[Em]

You can't get past me on a souvenir if you thought you were gonna get away with it. And then by the time I woke up, I'd be back on the road.

[Christine]

I test it to see every time I. Obviously, I wouldn't actually let that happen. I would never deprive you of that.

[Em]

But I can smell a gift shop. Yeah.

[Christine]

Sometimes I want to. Sometimes it's like, Em has a scent for, like, candy apples, fudge. Like, literally the moment we're in, like, a mile vicinity, Em's like, beep, beep, beep, beep.

[Em]

I'm in. I'm in.

[Christine]

You know, souvenirs with Confederate flags on them. Here I come. And we were just walking around there going, oh, it's cool, because you go into these stores, and you're like, wow, there are people from every walk of life, because it's just right off the highway. So it's like, I always forget driving through. If you're, like, a local, there are people from everywhere. And it was a wild. They had a whole shelf of just Elvis slippers and glass bells. I mean, it's a place.

[Em]

Deep southern Christian aisles of things.

[Christine]

What was the one I loved? I. I turned around, and I was like, oh, you guys. You guys know this about me?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

There's one thing you know about me.

[Em]

And. And I think I also said, and I've always said that there's a. There was a shirt that said, if the stars. If the stars are made to worship, then so am I. And I went, so will I. Yeah. Oh, my. So not our usual stop. But I'll tell you, it's a kitschy looking store from the outside. Of course it draws the eye. You gotta pull it and see what's going on.

[Christine]

It's written in Captain Howdy. Like, the. The name of the place is written in Captain Howdy font. Like, literally. So it feels.

[Em]

It looks like a circus. It's even red and white striped, and everything feels.

[Christine]

It feels very apropos. And I am now at the venue or not the venue. I'm at the hotel. Hey, I'm at the venue already a day early. I'm at the hotel now. I've got. I went and got ice for the first time at a hotel.

[Em]

Nice.

[Christine]

I've never really gotten ice. And I. I'm. I'm with those people on the memes who are like, what is the big deal about ice at a hotel? And I'm like, I don't get it either, but what do you mean?

[Em]

I don't know about this meme.

[Christine]

It's like millennials being like, wait, why is everyone obsessed with ice at a hotel? What are we doing with the ice? Are we like, oh, what are we using it for? And I'm like, great point. What are we using it for? I've never gotten ice at a hotel, but there's always just a big ice room and there's always people walking around with buckets of ice. I mean, this time I have literally white wine that I took from yesterday's menu. So I. I was like, I'm gonna be really trashy and put ice cubes into my paper cup of white wine. That's about the. The extent of my use of the hotel ice.

[Em]

But that feels a little backwards. Cause you would think if a hotel is offering ice, it would also offer an ice bucket, so you don't have to use it in a paper cup.

[Christine]

Oh, I have an ice bucket.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

I just also put ice in my cup because my wine was warm.

[Em]

Okay, sure. I don't. I've only ever thought that the ice would be to, like, sit a drink in. I don't know what other people are doing. Ah, right.

[Christine]

But it's like, how many. How many of us are going in, like, making Cocktails or whatever in the hotel room. Like, I feel like. It just feels like an outdated thing. But then people in the comments were like, oh, I literally just go get buckets of ice and eat the ice. And I'm like, why are we acting like this is normal behavior?

[Em]

I mean, I like eating ice also, but I. I feel like in a hotel, depending on like the quality of the hotel, I would not touch that fucking ice to eat it.

[Christine]

I don't think I want to eat that, you know?

[Em]

Yeah, it's.

[Christine]

It's just weird. I just am like. And then of course, I wander down. I'm so self conscious. I'm wandering around with this bucket and everyone's like, she's getting ice. We know where she's going. She's getting ice. And I'm like, everyone knows I'm getting ice.

[Em]

If they know, can they tell you? Because I don't know either.

[Christine]

Know what? Oh, what the ice is for. Yeah, yeah. Great question. I should have asked.

[Em]

I mean, I always travel with like a portable, like cooler, like an insulated cooler.

[Christine]

What you do? I learn so much about you every time we go somewhere.

[Em]

So maybe I would put ice on that if I was trying to keep something cold. So I guess.

[Christine]

Yeah, but. And so people said that, but it was like, but how often is that a thing that they have to like make ice such a big deal? Like, what floor is the ice on? Oh, the floor. The ice is on this floor. There's ice on every floor. Or like, maybe like back in the day it was like a bigger deal to have an ice maker, I guess.

[Em]

I don't know.

[Christine]

I don't know. So ominous about those little rooms with.

[Em]

They feel like. They feel like really small back rooms. They do.

[Christine]

They feel like a back room. That's exactly it. And every time I'm in there, I feel so self conscious, like, oh my God, everyone can see me in here. Again, I've only been in one once and it was today. So that is when I say every time I'm in one. Anyway, this is called. And that's why we drank. We read every month listener submitted stories. This time Eva got us a few. She did say there were true crime ones in here. And.

[Em]

Nice.

[Christine]

She did give us also extra stories in case we didn't. The ones were not great, but also we don't read them until we're reading them out loud.

[Em]

Is Eva new?

[Christine]

What's that Would be a wild choice if we were like, cut that whole thing. I mean, it is fair.

[Em]

Like, maybe, maybe it's Too intense or something.

[Christine]

Yeah, maybe something like that. But I was like, well, I guess we'll never get to the extras because we won't know until we're.

[Em]

Until we're done story. Yeah.

[Christine]

So it'll be an interesting time for us all is what I'm trying to say.

[Em]

So to all the people that are were reading your story today, maybe at the end we'll go, that sucked. Let's cut that and then we'll keep it in. Just so you know that we didn't like it.

[Christine]

Yeah, you'll feel it. We just want to happy maybe happy May. Thank you.

[Em]

Would you like to read the first story, Christine?

[Christine]

I'll read it. Yeah. This is called my grandma's third man story. Oh, I know. I called Eva a third man. I said, you're like a third man.

[Em]

And I. I don't want to know the context. Okay.

[Christine]

I don't. I don't know it either. So it's fine.

[Em]

But you're right, she does feel like when we're the Geo's trio, she like.

[Christine]

Comes in and is like, it's gonna be okay. And then it's like, was she real? Was she an angel? I don't know.

[Em]

I mean that was literally what she did when we crashed into a snowbank and she went, I'll figure it out. Like a third man.

[Christine]

You also, you literally were like, we're at mile marker 134 can. Yeah, like, you were. So you both.

[Em]

Oh, what was that fucking phone call by the way? Because no, Eva got someone on the phone and I just out loud, like.

[Christine]

I shout, Eva was on the phone with Katie who does a lot of. Who does our admin and a lot of like travel logistics and a lot of just behind the scenes work. And we're on the phone with Katie trying to figure out like, how like we're driving five miles per hour. This is crazy. All of a sudden we start just like careening off the road very slowly but very intentionally and Em grabs the phone.

[Em]

Oh yes.

[Christine]

Like, plucks it out of her hand. Like not. Not like grabs it aggressively. Just like plucks it out of Eva's hand and goes mid crashing Katie. It's Em. We're crashing the car right now. And we're at mil marker 134. Do you mind finding someone to save us? And then.

[Em]

That's right, I did do that.

[Christine]

Here's Eva. And Eva got back on and Katie's like, tow trucking coming, incoming.

[Em]

I totally forgot about that. But yeah, I remember, like, why I, I knew what was coming so I scrubbed the phone and I went, hey, in about five seconds we're about to.

[Christine]

We are driving into a, a, a tree. Goodbye, cruel world. It was, it was really chaotic. That moment, though I will never forget. Am taking and going. We're at mile mark. I'm like, the fact that you already clocked the mile marker, like, come on.

[Em]

As soon as we got on the road in a blizzard, I was like, maybe I should know where I am.

[Christine]

It was amazing how you were on top of it.

[Em]

By the way, this is where I give a big thumbs down to California because I hate that it is not normal in LA to have mile markers like they don't have.

[Christine]

Oh yeah, it is weird. I feel like that's a thing in my hate it on the east coast and like Midwest, but I don't know why California doesn't do that.

[Em]

But also it's so. I guess there's no snowbanks to crash in. Just so you don't need to know what fucking a mile marker they're like.

[Christine]

You might die of dehydration on the side of the road and that's fine.

[Em]

But I feel like if there were.

[Christine]

A snowbank, maybe we'd tell you where you are.

[Em]

It's. As someone who grew up in an area that had mile markers, it feels so irresponsible to not have them. I agree.

[Christine]

And the way you just jumped in with the mile marker, you were like such a dad. You were like, we're at mile marker this and this. I'm like the only person I've ever say we're at mile marker is my stepdad. And so when you said that, I was like, wow, Emma's like, we're going north bound.

[Em]

I wouldn't even know how to say.

[Christine]

That by mile mark or something or other. Anyway. Hi, Lemon and company. It says.

[Em]

Oh, that's okay. We're in the story now.

[Christine]

Okay, we're in the story. I'm really bad at intro, so let's just crack into it. When I was younger, I was raised by my grandmother Nancy. She was an amazing strong woman and sadly, I lost her too soon at the age of 60. Oh, that's really young. To lung cancer. As we near the 10 year anniversary of her death, I thought I would share one story she told me that has always stuck with me. Me, I never knew about the third man syndrome until I heard the episode where M had covered it. I thought, oh, that sounds like that experience that my grandma had. Let me elaborate. My grandmother has struggled with her health for most of her life, as she had Crohn's disease, survived breast cancer, and had to have multiple back surgeries due to running herself over with her truck. Is this me? Also? This also feels like a very Christine story. She has Crohn's disease. And also, she drove herself over with her own car. Oops.

[Em]

That does sound like something you would just say oops to the next day.

[Christine]

And you, oh, you didn't know that about me.

[Em]

You would just move in silence about it and then say it like, three weeks later and be like, oh, yeah, when I got ran over last month, you remember what now?

[Christine]

Yeah, I'd be like, you were there. And you were like, no, I wasn't. I was like, you didn't tell me the mile marker. That was a third man syndrome. I thought you were there. You were my third man in that moment. And by the way, when you found the mile marker, you were our third man in that moment, and it was super powerful.

[Em]

I do what I can.

[Christine]

When my grandmother was in her late 40s, six months before I was born, she was admitted into the hospital. I'm unaware as to why, as some of the details are foggy. She was not getting any better and continued to get sicker and sicker. She said she had made peace with the fact that she was going to die there. She told me a nurse came into her room, one who she did not recognize. The nurse came to her bedside and told her something along the lines of, do not trust this doctor. They are trying to kill you. Your IV is just sugar water. You cannot die yet.

[Em]

You know what pisses me off is that my third man would not fucking show up. He'd go, this is karma.

[Christine]

So you know what I would do? I would, like, take an airpod on, go, sorry, what did you say? And it'd be too late. And I missed the whole message. Like, I would have been like, excuse me, what?

[Em]

It's moments like that where I'm like, there must be a reason that people are here, because why would there. Why would someone come and intervene? But then I also wonder, is anyone protecting us? Like, is there, like, I got, like, a super. Is there a God, like, being? Because how come he didn't show up and some, like, little minion had to do it for him to be like.

[Christine]

By the way, if the stars are made to worship, so will I. You know.

[Em]

Like. Like, if you have. If someone has the power to come down and warn you about the sugar water, couldn't they have just, like, prevented the sugar Water earlier. Like, why do we have to be halfway through this? You know why?

[Christine]

Because we're having this conversation and it's so mind blowing. Altering and it's like, oh, maybe it all happened so.

[Em]

That's right. It's. It was because of us.

[Christine]

It's for us. It was just a special treat for us.

[Em]

Okay. Sorry to get back to the story. Holy. That's.

[Christine]

Yeah. Crazy. And if, if a nurse said that to me, I'd be like, hey, I'm gonna call your supervisor and be like, there. This person needs a nap. Let them go home. Something's not well with them.

[Em]

I think my first thought, my first thought would be I would ask the nurse. I guess they're probably in and out and not able to do that. But sitting over here, I would think, why didn't they ask the nurse? Like, why the fuck do you work here if you're. If you work for doctors? Killing people on purpose.

[Christine]

Yeah, like, yeah, I guess it would be so you'd be like, sorry, if you know that. Shouldn't you do something about it?

[Em]

Please.

[Christine]

Yeah, well, the. They walked away.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

When my. That's literally what says. And they walked away. When my grandfather came into the room later that day, she told him what had happened. After this, the information isn't clear exactly what happened, but I was told that my grandfather demanded a different doctor and my grandma ended up getting better. My grandma told me this doctor was later charged with malpractice, but I cannot verify this. I'll never know, for Ivy actually had sugar water or if this was a metaphor. My grandma always said this was her guardian angel. I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly what to think of it, but I am sure grateful for whoever or whatever that was that day because if they were not there, I would not have been raised by such an amazing, strong woman. Thank you guys for my. Thank you guys for being my besties while I drive to work, do housework and while I'm awake at all hours with my six month old. He can't wait to see you guys at the Arizona show. Which still hasn't happened yet. So we're going to see you soon, Kylie. She her. It says thank you for that. And then our. That's in May, right? So this will come out before.

[Em]

Before our happy May. Hey.

[Christine]

Oh my gosh.

[Em]

How exciting that I wouldn't know what to do if somebody. I don't know what's going on here.

[Christine]

I think I would have thought I'm just having a whole, like, I'm Just, I just. They gave me too many painkillers and I'm like, hallucinating. I like, I. But it also seems like grandma waited for her husband to come and be like, hey, something weird happened. Like, you know, it's not like this immediate reaction of like, oh, my God, they're killing me. You know, it's like she waited for her husband to be like, yeah, that's fucking weird. We're getting you a new doctor.

[Em]

You know what's interesting though, is I feel like you have to hope that grandpa is like, one of the good ones. Because if I told Allison, if I were.

[Christine]

I know, I know.

[Em]

She would tell me I had a bad dream and would let the doctor kill me.

[Christine]

They would literally. Allison, they would be like, can you just increase the sugar water dosage? They're having a really bad day.

[Em]

Yeah, you gotta hope that you've got like a real one on your side. Unfortunately, I do not. But I'm so glad that your grandmother.

[Christine]

But honestly, em. But doesn't that make you wonder? Like, maybe they show up in a way that will work? Like, that will work?

[Em]

Like, I guess so. Yeah.

[Christine]

You know, like, maybe this wouldn't have worked for us because we would have been like, too polite and or like self deprecating to believe that it happened. But, like, maybe there are certain ways that it happens for people who do have unsupportive partners that don't really believe.

[Em]

Well, if you're listening up there, don't go to Allison.

[Christine]

Be so specific, please.

[Em]

Go to Christine. Go to Cristine.

[Christine]

Go to Christine. Not Blades, not Allison. We'll handle it. It's fine.

[Em]

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, that. So how do you feel about that story? I think we can keep that one in.

[Christine]

Okay. What's the star rating? No, imagine every time we're like, that one was really good.

[Em]

Like a three out of five.

[Christine]

It's like, imagine. That's like mediocre. Oh, thanks for sharing this beautiful, heartfelt story about your loved one. It's not very good. No, I thought that was a lovely story. And I love that people talk about. I love that you didn't know what a third man story was, but knew your grandma's story and went, oh, weird. That sounds kind of like my. Like that. I love that we're putting words to things that have happened for so long.

[Em]

I love that we're responsible for.

[Christine]

For all of this.

[Em]

For molding the minds of. Of the next generation.

[Christine]

Yeah. That is what that probably means. This episode is brought to you by Meundies Underwear drawers are like the Wild West. You never know what you're going to pull out or what shape it's in. So upgrade your colle with the buttery, soft comfort of Meundies. Meundies signature fabric is as soft as a warm hug from your favorite sweater. Plus, it's breathable and oh so comfy, making it ideal for all day wear. Get 20% off your first order, plus free shipping on orders of $75 or more at MeUndies.com Spotify Enter promo code.

[Em]

Spotify this message comes from Greenlight. Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely and invest with your guardrails in place with Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up Chores Automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Join millions of parents and kids building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get started risk [e-mail] Spotify this next one is from Ali, who uses she her pronouns. Thank you for normalizing pronouns. And Ally says, hi all. I want to write in and talk about the murder of my Aunt Alice. Oh, I bet Ally's named after Alice. That's what I bet.

[Christine]

I didn't even think about that.

[Em]

This took place in Columbus, Ohio in November 62. The newspaper article that was published stated that she was, quote, slain by an irate boyfriend. But that is not the truth. No. And as always, there was so much more to the story that was written. Like the intro to like Desperate Housewives or something as we know.

[Christine]

Like it feels like, oh, the narrator is talking to us. XOXO Gossip Girl.

[Em]

Yeah, 100%. Alice was born in 45 to Claire and Johnny. Will Wilcoxon. And Johnny had saved Claire from her abusive family when she was just 16. She or, sorry, he walked her home from her job as a babysitter one evening, and when Claire went in, her mother was drunk and angry and began beating her. Johnny ran in and told Claire's mother not to touch her and they left together. And they had three daughters together. Alice, Ra and Deborah.

[Christine]

Oh my gosh, what a beautiful assortment of like very different names.

[Em]

Rayetta. You never hear, it's Ray and Etta put together.

[Christine]

Rayetta is really pretty. So wait, Alice, Rayetta. And what was the other one?

[Em]

Deborah.

[Christine]

Deborah, yeah. What a fun little, I don't know, slice of history.

[Em]

What a little rat pack.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

Johnny was often unfaithful to Claire and they separated, but remained close. And Claire frequently stated that they had met too young and weren't ready for that kind of commitment. But she loved him her whole life. Oh. As a result, Alice was brought up by a single mother. A single mother to three kids in the 40s and 50s. They frequently went without. And it wasn't uncommon for Alice to see Claire crying at the kitchen table over bills she couldn't afford.

[Christine]

Jesus Christ. That, like, that's its own very deep trauma. Yeah, the financial trauma. Yeah, that's really scary.

[Em]

The family didn't have a good reputation due to the things Claire had to do to help her family survive.

[Christine]

Oh, gosh.

[Em]

A lot of women in society looked down on Claire and her children. And this upbringing could have made Alice bitter, but instead it gave her immense empathy and she found ways to keep her to help her community in any way that she could. And Alice took up a babysitting job to help the family and to get a little spending money for herself. So When Alice was 16, she met a man named Jim Click. It's a fun little last name.

[Christine]

That is a. That feels like the most made up name. Like if I were writing a short story, I feel like somebody would be like, you can't use that.

[Em]

That's a made up name. Click Feels like, like she's so like punchy. Like she's so Jim Click.

[Christine]

I mean imagine though, if you had a teacher named like Ms. Click, like that would have never left your mind. Like you would have been remembered her for the rest of your life.

[Em]

I remember her for the rest of my life. No, Jim Click feels, I feel like he' like I don't know what's going on there, but he know, he. I feel like Jim Click knows how to insult you really good.

[Christine]

He's gonna stop seeing the paperclip Clippy.

[Em]

Really interesting.

[Christine]

I don't know why is it. I mean, it must be clip and click. And I'm just like in my brain, I'm like word art association, you know, I don't know.

[Em]

I know it's not a click, but more of a snap. But I just keep thinking of Jim Click as like, like just kind of like an like attitude because it's sort.

[Christine]

Of like click, quick, snappy. It just kind of works. I get it.

[Em]

So Alice, when she, she was making some money for herself, she was 16, she met Jim Click and she met him at the local pizza and soda shop and she thought he was cute and he struck up a conversation with her. I hope they talked about how cute his last Name is. He told her that he was 18 and slept at the pizzeria because he was an orphan and didn't have a family. Oh, Jim Click.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Jim Klik sounds like an orphan. Like, literally the name Jim Klik sounds like.

[Em]

You want to know why? Because it sounds a little like Jiminy Cricket. And like, isn't he supposed to Jimmy.

[Christine]

Cricket, but what's the other one? Oliver Twist?

[Em]

Yeah. Cricket together makes Click a little bit.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Some of these people must be like, can you read my goddamn story?

[Christine]

Yeah. I mean, some of them. All of them must be like, this is. This is insufferable is what it probably feels. I imagine it must be insufferable. And I. It's like, I want to apologize, and I do, over and over, but it's like, I also can't. I'm not going to stop, so why am I even apologizing?

[Em]

You sent this in knowing what would happen here.

[Christine]

You knew. Don't act like clique wasn't something that you were like, oh, these people will never get past it. Like a rice. Like a grain of rice for a vampire. We just like. It halts us in our track.

[Em]

Yeah. Let's get back to your orphan grandpa now. Okay. Anyway, or uncle. Or he. Oh, yeah, he was 18. He sleeps at the pizzeria because he doesn't have a family. And he was extremely attracted to her and frequently asked her out. She wasn't interested in dating, as they had just met. And she didn't trust men for good reasons.

[Christine]

Correct.

[Em]

Especially after seeing some of the things her mother and sisters went through. Alice, being empathetic and kind, started bringing him meals every so often. He lives at a pizzeria. He's fine.

[Christine]

Wait a minute.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

He literally lives at a p. He.

[Em]

Can you imagine Willy Wonka going, I just live in this chocolate factory. I'm so hungry. It's like, you live in a job.

[Christine]

So attracted to you and so hungry. It's like, wait a minute. Don't blame me.

[Em]

I mean, I really. For all we know, he really actually doesn't have any food.

[Christine]

But I don't know, doesn't he kill her? So I don't love this story. I don't know. I'm already mad at him, and I don't know if that's. But it did say that wasn't true, so I could be wrong.

[Em]

Yeah, I forgot that Jim Click was going to be a bad guy in this.

[Christine]

Well, I don't know, though, because I said it's not true. Like, I don't know how much of it is. Remember it said, that's not what happened. I love that. I'm like, there's no way to know what happened. Maybe I can let you keep talking.

[Em]

I was going to say my favorite part of this is if I just read it, we would have the information, but you refused to do it.

[Christine]

It's way too easy that way.

[Em]

Happy May.

[Christine]

So we've made it four months. We made a trimester. How do you feel?

[Em]

It will take us four months to get through this fucking story. Alice, being empathetic and kind, starts bringing him meals every so often so she can make sure he was fed. And she knew it was. Sorry, I'm just still laughing at your last comment. That was very funny.

[Christine]

I don't remember it so.

[Em]

But I'm sure she knew it was a struggle and she wanted to use her little extra cash to help her community. She later discovered that Jim was actually 29. And while she still felt bad for him, lying about.

[Christine]

You said he was 18. That's 11 years off. That's not even like a fudge of a number. That's fucking crazy.

[Em]

That's like almost his whole age again, Please, you can't.

[Christine]

That's literally double. You can't do that.

[Em]

And while she still felt bad for him, lying about his age to try and date her made her extremely uncomfortable.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

She decided to distance herself from him, and this made him extremely angry.

[Christine]

Okay, so Jim Klik's not good. He's not cute. He's not a good guy.

[Em]

I remember earlier when I said, I know it's not a snap, but it sounds like Jim Klik. Maybe Jim snapped. You know what I'm saying?

[Christine]

It feels like he should be. Yeah. At least part of that show. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah, for sure.

[Christine]

I think that it's always women on that show because it's like, oh, they snap. No, they don't snap. They've just.

[Em]

No, I'm saying he snapped in a different way.

[Christine]

No, I know. And I'm saying maybe they should make it about him instead of all the women they usually feature where they're like, oh, she snapped. No, she was being abused or whatever. I mean, a lot of times, yes, It.

[Em]

We can make the sequel.

[Christine]

Yeah, let's do that.

[Em]

We'll just. Yeah. Okay.

[Christine]

So this one's men only.

[Em]

So Jim Click is pissed. Yeah.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

He accused her of leading him on because she was feeding you when you said you had no food.

[Christine]

Yuck.

[Em]

I smelled trouble on him. When he lives in a pizzeria, you.

[Christine]

Knew immediately you were like, why are you feeding him? Oh.

[Em]

And she reminded him that she had clearly said she wasn't interested.

[Christine]

Okay, okay.

[Em]

Several months later, Alice noticed that a man had been following her home from her babysitting jobs.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

This scared.

[Christine]

The most sinister sentence you've ever said.

[Em]

This scared her, and she informed the police, and the police simply told her to be careful. Of course. Of course, of course.

[Christine]

Then why would you walk home from your babysitting job if you didn't want to get followed?

[Em]

I'm glad we had a few laughs earlier on, because here's the next sentence. One night, that man grabs her and drags her behind a shed, and he attempts to sexually assault her. But Alice fought him off and ran home. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Em]

She told the police that she was sure it was Jim Click, but had no proof. And I really said, I.

[Christine]

It's like, oh, wait, you need proof. What do you mean? I. I know the guy, and he put me behind his shed. But I guess that's not enough proof.

[Em]

To a cop who didn't want to be there. I guess there's no proof.

[Christine]

She.

[Em]

She was more careful after that and went out with friends, and she was sitting in a restaurant with a few other girls. And then Jim Click spotted her. He grabbed her purse and told her he'd give it back if she went on a date with him. Oh, I hate this man. Alice flat this. I love her. Alice said, you can keep it. Take my purse, take my money. I don't give a. I hope you.

[Christine]

Have a good time spending the money I make babysitting.

[Em]

Yeah, have fun with my $5.

[Christine]

Good luck. Yeah.

[Em]

By the way, had you not been a creepy person, I would have spent on you anyway.

[Christine]

So you could say I already fetched ye.

[Em]

Then she left with her friends. And that night, when Jim went through her purse, he found a letter she had written to a friend talking about a boy in class she had a crush on.

[Christine]

This is when they're saying, like, oh, we'll do this different. Do this different. No, no. At a certain point, you know what.

[Em]

I was worried about, though, is that, what if she had an ID on her and in her purse was her address?

[Christine]

Well, that's what I thought. The letter has her address. I assumed. I thought it was, like, a return address or something.

[Em]

Oh, no, I think she's just, like, writing, and it's like, oh, there's a boy that's cute, and it's not him.

[Christine]

So he can probably find her.

[Em]

Anyway, the next morning, oh, yeah, he's already been following. Right?

[Christine]

He knows where she lives. Yeah.

[Em]

The next morning, Jim went to his place of work and made the manager open the safe. Okay. He took the gun out of the safe and told the manager not to say anything.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

Who is this manager? Then he went to the apartment where Alice was babysitting.

[Christine]

Oh. Oh, my God.

[Em]

And when she opened the door, he began arguing with her. Alice closed the door, but Jim knocked again. And when she opened the door, the door Jim said, here's your letter back, and unloaded the gun point blank. And he shot her three times.

[Christine]

I mean, and it's like, why would that ever be the thing you think would happen? Like, it's like the escalation is so unhinged. Like, you would never be like, well, this person's just gonna shoot me. Like, you'd be like, God, this guy's so annoying. He won't leave me alone. I'm gonna open the door and be like, get the out of here. I'm calling the police. And then you open the door, and he's already 10 steps more violent than you expected. I mean, nightmare.

[Em]

He shot her three times, point blank. Once in the head and twice in the heart.

[Christine]

Jesus. My life.

[Em]

And he left and returned the gun to a different pizzeria, which, like, he returned it.

[Christine]

Here you go. It's not a library book.

[Em]

The irony is that is what cops would call proof. I guess maybe like that now, that.

[Christine]

No, but that's. It's. It's every stalking story. Like, this is how it ends. It's like, when it's too late, it's always a stalker and dangerous. Oh, good, I'm dead. Thanks.

[Em]

That's terrible. That's so sad. And also, she was babysitting with a friend. So, like, imagine the friend heard all that, the trauma and the kid that.

[Christine]

You'Re babysitting the baby.

[Em]

Oh, my God, you hope. It's like an infant who doesn't know.

[Christine]

I remember anything, too. I really do.

[Em]

Johnny. Alice's father was called to identify the body. And he said, she's still. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

He said she still had a tear on her face.

[Christine]

What the. That's like Alice.

[Em]

He began drinking and later passed due to complications from alcohol abuse.

[Christine]

Of course. Of course.

[Em]

In court, Jim pleaded guilty to first degree murder. And the judge refused to accept the plea and said that he didn't think that Jim understood the seriousness of the plea and they had to go to trial. The newspaper printed babysitter slain by irate boyfriend and someone and some women in the community had told news that Alice was probably dating around. Isn't that great?

[Christine]

Several supporting women love it, love to see it.

[Em]

Especially when the last thing she ever saw was maybe that letter that she wrote about another guy. So now she's poor, you know, a crush.

[Christine]

And she's a teenager. She's a child, she's a minor. This man is 29 years old.

[Em]

Several horrible rumors spread around town about Alice. Johnny and Claire were told not to talk to the news or reporter, so they never corrected it. Jim was sent to prison, but was released in the 70s because he had terminal cancer. I feel no pity for you. And he died at home.

[Christine]

And he got sugar water in his iv. And at the end, one can hope.

[Em]

See, if you're gonna be a killer, can't you kill other killers? Like, can't you be like a Dexter situation?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

My grandma Claire used to say she was worried that she wouldn't go to heaven because she could never forgive the man who killed her.

[Christine]

Oh, no. Like you're putting these people in the most turbulent emotional and psychological turmoil and they have to live the rest of their lives going, am I not going to get into heaven because I'm still so deeply hurt by what you did to my sister? Like, that's bonkers to me.

[Em]

I'm no pastor, but that ain't how heaven works in my book.

[Christine]

I want to be so clear.

[Em]

I'm pretty sure you get to go to heaven and he doesn't.

[Christine]

I'm pretty sure it's okay that you're mad. Yeah. Like, it's really like, it, it's. I understand the fear of like, oh, I'm not doing like the forgiveness thing and I know some people can do that, but I, I don't think you get any, any. I don't think you have to forgive somebody. No. I think that's not fair to ask of you.

[Em]

Grandma and Johnny have both passed and I didn't want Alice's side of the story to die with them. He wasn't her boyfriend. He was a 29 year old man. And I, I'm going to do you one better because you didn't even write this, but I'd say He was a 29 year old sexually ass stalker who murdered her.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Obsessed with a 16, 17 year old girl. It's important that people know that. That's very true, very true.

[Christine]

Remember like when we were that age and it was like, oh, creepy guy. Like creepy old men. And now I'm like, oh, what the. Like if somebody talked to Leona when she was 16 and they were like a creepy old perverted man. Like, it's just bananas to me that we were like, haha.

[Em]

I. I know, I know. I can't believe it used to be like a silly little thing. And I wonder if that's. It has to be a combination. But sometimes I'm like, is it just because I was young and dumb or was like the world not talking about that stuff?

[Christine]

It's almost like it was more than. Well, it's. It was normalized. It probably still is normalized. And I don't think anyone was really that concerned, unfortunately.

[Em]

Yeah. Anyway, thank you, Ally, for your story. That is a deep point.

[Christine]

And also, Ali, if you're not named after Alice, because it didn't occur to me when M said it, but like, maybe you can take that.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Allie, Alice. Like, that's really cute. I love that. I love that you could have a similar.

[Em]

Well, in the, in the email, it's short for Alicia. So I'm wondering if. Oh, oh, Alicia, Alice. I don't know.

[Christine]

Does it have a C?

[Em]

Like a C? Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, so it really is close. That's. That's kind of beautiful. Okay, so now I have this. This is from. Oh, okay, interesting. So I'm going to cover next month. Well, the current month, if you're listening to this. But. And you're not. M. But next month. So May is a month which Surfsh and I have already been discussing is Missing and Murdered Indigenous Persons Month and Or Awareness month, and on May 5th is Missing and Murdered Indigenous Persons Day. And this US and Canada. And it's just to draw attention and bring awareness of the extreme disparity between missing people in other communities versus the indigenous community and especially women and girls. So this story, it says preferred name and pronouns. Hati, mean, parentheses. White girl named Chelsea. Parentheses. Sorry. M, Parentheses, she, her. So we've got. Did I say that right?

[Em]

Hatamin.

[Christine]

Hatamin.

[Em]

I don't know where the emphasis is, but Hatman.

[Christine]

And I love Chelsea. Sorry. M. That's really good. It's really good.

[Em]

You know what, I'm glad that you know, you've got two names to choose from.

[Christine]

I love it.

[Em]

And you don't go with Chelsea.

[Christine]

Maybe around me you chose both so that you could punish em a little bit with the Chelsea name. Okay, cool. So this is the story of the murders of sisters Lillian Lincoln and Janie Goodwin.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

Hi. M. Christine, Leona, Gio, Juni and Lemon. My name is Hatimin, but due to generational trauma and strict white man laws. I go by my white girl named Chelsea. And I am sorry, but despite what my husband will tell you, I am not one of the bad ones. Despite what my husband would say.

[Em]

Husband's on my team.

[Christine]

It sounds like I'm writing in today not only to share my family's personal stories of missing and murdered indigenous people MMIP, but also to shine a light on MMIP Awareness Day, observed on May 5. This day is meant to honor those we've lost, fight for the justice they were denied, and demand action so that no more families have to endure this pain. I hope you can help amplify these stories. Trust me, I'm going through a a slate of stories with Saoirse and it is a doozy because saying their names, remembering them and sharing their cases is a step toward justice. I'd also love to extend a formal invitation to the ATW team and all those listening to attend the Kuruk Tribe's MMIP Awareness Day walk. It will be Monday, May 5, in Eureka, California. I know it's a long shot and you all are busy, but hey, why not? I've sent some of our program materials to your P.O. boxes.

[Em]

Oh.

[Christine]

Oh, I love this. Okay. I'm an enrolled Kuruk tribal member and my journey as an MMIP activist began with the murder of my aunt, Honey Babe Lillian Lincoln in 1997 when I was just three years old. Today, in 2025, the Crook Tribe has an MMIP program and I'm incredibly proud to be a part of it, advocating for those victimized by MMIP and human trafficking. Please feel free to share my work information as we can help advocate for Indigenous families impacted by the crisis and will put that in the show notes for sure if anyone needs access to that. Now to my family stories. My aunt Honey Babe was a loving mother of five and the eldest of eight siblings on my grandma's side. My biological grandfather had so many kids, I don't even know half of them.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

She was raised by her mother, Shirley Lincoln, and her adoptive father, Emmett Lincoln. She was known for being caring, strong, and an all around fun person to be around. She was diagnosed with ms, which slowly took over her body. As her condition worsened, she turned to street drugs to self medicate, leading her into a difficult life. By 1997, she had become so weak that she could no longer walk, get dressed or complete daily tasks alone. She was also in a relationship with an extremely abusive man, with multiple reports of him harming her. One heartbreaking example, he once abandoned her and her two young children. In the middle of nowhere to go get high. Witnesses saw her six and seven year old children taking turns pushing her wheelchair, trying to get her home.

[Em]

Whoa. Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Whoa. The next police report about Honey Babe was about her death. The Humboldt County Sheriff's Department was reluctant to even take the call because it was on tribal land. They've made it clear before that they, quote, don't like dealing with Indian problems when they find. Yeah. When they finally did respond, they grossly mishandled the crime scene, failing to tape it off, collect evidence, or question suspect suspects. Suspects. Because she was a known addict and the people she was with were also addicts, the sheriff coroner ruled her death an accidental drowning. This was despite the fact that her body was found completely unclothed, face down in a bathtub with her wheelchair nowhere in sight.

[Em]

Hello?

[Christine]

It was easy for them to write it off as an accident and blame it on her ms, but the reality is, by that point, she couldn't even complete daily tasks on her own. So the idea that she somehow started a bath, unbuttoned her shirt, removed all of her clothing, got herself out of her. Her wheelchair is impossible. Did I mention that coroners in California do not need a medical degree? You did not, but other podcasters have, and it's very interesting. They don't need a medical degree or any medical training. Their job is an elected position, as it is in many counties.

[Em]

Insane.

[Christine]

Yep. In my aunt's case, the coroner had no medical background whatsoever, so you wouldn't even know the basics of that. Ms. Patients can't. Right.

[Em]

He could have literally been like, what's Ms. Anyway? She drowned.

[Christine]

Anyway, it's obvious. There's water here. Thanks.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

For years, my family fought to get Honey Babe's case reopened, but they were ignored and dismissed at every turn. That is, until. I mean, this is like when I'm like, is it not obvious to everybody? Her three year old niece grew up to be the bad bitch who refuses to be silenced.

[Em]

Good.

[Christine]

I've been bringing light to her case since 2020. In 2022, I spoke publicly for the first time on a panel, standing in front of legislators, senators, and the governor. And my four year old dress, Spider man happily waving at me while I was on stage demanding justice for mmip. Bringing justice to my aunt Honey Babe also meant reopening old wounds for my family. I had to do my own research about her since I never really got the chance to know her or remember what she was like. That meant sitting down with my family, her children, her remaining siblings, and her Parents to hear their stories. I can't even begin to describe what it's like to listen to your 80, 80 year old grandmother mourn her child. 28 years after Honey Babe's murder, her sister would also fall victim to MMIP. Janie was 38 years old. She was known for her beauty, her loving heart, her free spirit. She had a laugh that could fill a room and a way of making people feel special, even in the smallest moments. She loved music, and if a good song came on, no matter where she was, she'd start dancing like no one was watching. She had a playful side too, always teasing her siblings or making jokes just to see people smile. And just like Honey Babe, she was a mother of five loving children with everything she had. She had an adventurous soul and an undeniable strength, even when life knocked her down. But like so many indigenous women, Janie struggled with addiction, and it led her to spend much of her time living on the streets of tribal land in rural Northern California on January 21, 2025. So a couple months ago, Janie was found in a fetal position in her niece's home. A wig had been placed on her head. By the time her body was discovered, she was unrecognizable, already in an advanced state of decomposition. She had to be identified by her tattoos.

[Em]

Oh, my God.

[Christine]

Once again, the sheriff's office mishandled the case, the crime scene. And again, let's just be clear. This was January 2025. The crime scene was never taped off, no evidence was collected. And just like with Honey Babe, her death was never investigated because all they saw was an attic. I can't speak more on this as it is very fresh. And I want to protect the investigation we're trying to have done on her case. However, I will say this. Janie was so much more than that. She was love. She was laughter. She was a mother, a sister, a daughter, a friend. She was a person who deserved justice. And she still does. I won't stop fighting to get justice from my aunts. I will not be silenced. The fact that it's aunts plural and it's like, yep, just another statistic, you know?

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Mind boggling. If you made it through this novel of a story, bless your heart and thank you for sticking with me. Thank you for taking the time to bring justice to my aunts and my people. Even if this isn't read during the show. And just to clarify, M, I'm not one of the bad Chelsea's, I promise.

[Em]

I still don't believe you.

[Christine]

It's like after all that, you still haven't passed the test. If anyone reaches out to you for help and their family is a part of mmip, please give them my work information. You know what, I don't want to put put her email directly in the show notes, right? So if you are interested, can you please reach out and we'll send you the information to Chelsea's contact so that we don't dox her in our show notes. You know.

[Em]

Cool.

[Christine]

Wow. What a story. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that that's normalized, quote unquote normal. You know, like the, the fact that the statistics are so at odds with how it should be is really dark.

[Em]

Happy May this episode is brought to you by Lifelock. Not everyone is careful with your personal information, which might explain why there's a victim of identity theft every five seconds.

[Christine]

In the U.S. fortunately, there's LifeLock.

[Em]

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[Christine]

Before we left for this trip, M I was so happy because my Daily look box got dropped off right before I got on the plane. So I got to try everything on and I was like, oh, I look classy af. No one's gonna even understand when I go to this Cincinnati, Kentucky airport. They're going to be like, who's this high class celebrity? And that's how, that's how it made me feel.

[Em]

I noticed, but I didn't want to say anything. But you knew looked very sushi. I looked like it's perfect garbagio next to you.

[Christine]

No, you don't. You. You got to get on the the Daily look train and then you'll be fine. This podcast is sponsored by Daily look, the number one highest rated premium personal styling service. With Daily look, you get your own dedicated personal stylist to curate a box of clothes based on your body shape preferences and lifestyle. It's not an algorithm, it's real personal stylist. And my stylist, like wrote all these nice things and I said, I'm looking for something really specific. I am doing a podcast live show and the Internet doesn't tell me what to wear. And she's like, I've got you.

[Em]

You fill out their style quiz. You know we love a quiz. Including your price and lifestyle preferences. You get up to 12 hand selected items delivered to your home and then you buy what you love and send back the rest. And Daily look offers free shipping both ways. It's that easy.

[Christine]

It's time to get your own personal stylist with Daily Look. Head to DailyLook.com to take your style quiz and use code drink for 50 off your first order.

[Em]

Once again, that's DailyLook.com for 50 off. And make sure you use our promo code drinks so they know that we sent you one last time. Dailylook.com and promo code drink. Okay, here we go. This is Elta who uses she. Her what?

[Christine]

Elta. Elta from my brothers in my podcast. Oh, my God. I literally scrolled to the end just to see. Anyway, I figured it was time to irritate Christine on this podcast instead of beach to Sandy for once. I was like, elta sends us so many submissions and reviews and like, content for the show.

[Em]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

For beach to Sandy. And I'm like, oh, it's Elta. Hi. Well, like, how many people are named Elsa? Probably just one.

[Em]

You were like the one from my show. And I was like, I don't know. Okay, okay, this then. Yes. This is Elta. She's back.

[Christine]

She's always there.

[Em]

And Elsa uses she. Her pronouns thank you for not. And the subject line is the future murderer who slept in my grandparents garage. Hello, beautiful people. I pestered my mom into telling me about this, so I thought I'd share with you a truly tragic story. Thank you so much.

[Christine]

Oh, that's so thoughtful. Thanks.

[Em]

In his youth, my uncle, we'll call him Rick, was friends with a kid named Bob Knot. As in Knott's Berry Farm?

[Christine]

Not okay, K. I know.

[Em]

Yeah, Bob had a brother whose name I don't know, and they were both born on a reservation. I was told Bob watched his mom murder his dad. Oh my God. Which didn't help him get off to a great start in life. And by the way, this is not a great start to the month either. Just the constant horrible, tragic stories that we're reading back to back. Christine, this is rough.

[Christine]

No wonder Eva gave us backup stories.

[Em]

That usually it's spooky. This is all super intense. Okay, so Bob had a brother. They both grew up on a reservation. Bob watched his mom murder his dad.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Em]

After that, Bob and his brother were put up for adoption and they were adopted by a kind well off family. And my mother couldn't remember what they did for work, but they had enough money that they had their own private plane. Okay, see, this is the kind of May I want to hear about.

[Christine]

Hang on a moment. Imagine, like, in those scenarios, you hear so many tragic stories of fostering, adopting, like, going. You know, usually fostering, going wrong. And it's like, imagine just being like, here's our private plane, kids. Come on. It feels like the most like. Annie.

[Em]

I was literally gonna say, I think I'm gonna like it here, unfortunately. Oh, okay. Well, that was fun, wasn't it, Christine? Unfortunately, if that's where the story ended, we wouldn't be here on a foggy night. The parents were flying the plane when it crashed into a lake and they drowned.

[Christine]

What? Okay, this is becoming series of unfortunate events, which also always deeply upset me because it was so close to being all fine and good.

[Em]

It really was. We could have just.

[Christine]

It's so sad, Elsa.

[Em]

Go back to Beaches. Andy. I. This is really bad.

[Christine]

What the are you doing here, Elsa? You're ruining my day.

[Em]

After. After that, Bob and his brother were bounced around from foster home to foster home. Can you imagine getting a place with a private place?

[Christine]

I mean, I have to go back into the universe is like, with you at that point, they're like, we're just here to make you miserable.

[Em]

Somehow he ended up in southern Minnesota. And Bob befriended my uncle when they were younger. My mom said he was the nicest guy and she loved having him around. And at some point, Bob started getting into trouble, financial and otherwise. He spent several nights sleeping in my grandparents garage, either in their car or in the garage attic. And he ended up being institutionalized in Wisconsin for something like committing robbery. Big, but okay. In 1988, Bob escaped. Oh, boy. And he went on the run using a car he jacked from an elderly couple.

[Christine]

Oh, Bob, Bob.

[Em]

What a turn of events. He made his way to my hometown, checked into a motel from a mile from where I grew up, and called Rick Miles. Uncle Bob told Rick where he was and that his car broke down and he needed Rick's help. I. If you called me after I thought you were institutionalized in another state, I'd be like, babe, what happened? Are you okay?

[Christine]

Hey, I'm not down the street. Come see me.

[Em]

You'd be like, I got me a feeling I'm gonna say right where I am. Thank you so much.

[Christine]

I've got me a feeling I'm calling Eva. My third man to intervene.

[Em]

Bob. Okay. So my uncle told him he couldn't help that day, but he could the next day. Bob said, it has to be today. I'll be gone tomorrow.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

Oh. The next day, Rick went to see if Bob was Still there. But the hotel said he had checked out already. Of course, my uncle didn't realize what had happened at the time, but he was just looking for his friend who asked for help. Eventually, the FBI called my grandma looking for Rick because phone records showed Bob calling that number from the hotel.

[Christine]

See, and that's what it's like. Sometimes when I think I'm like, like, oh, maybe I should be more like people pleasy like I usually am. It's like, no, this is what happens. You end up trying to help somebody and then you call, and then the FBI is like, we see you called. It's like, well, he called me first. I didn't call him out of the blue. It's like, now suddenly you're on the hook for this crime.

[Em]

I mean, you know, this is what. This is the perk of being an introvert with phone anxiety.

[Christine]

Thank you. It's the one perk. We don't get many, but there is one, and it's the this.

[Em]

Bob made his way across the country, and along the way, he met up with his accomplice, Jeffrey Frost. I'm so sorry, but between hey, what? Jiminy Cricket. Click and Jeff Frost, it's like this feels like a weird bad Pinocchio.

[Christine]

Like some sort of weird Disney spin off.

[Em]

Like Jim Click and Jeff Frost.

[Christine]

Like Jim Click and Bob. Whatever. I mean, this just all feels like so strange. Bob Knot. Jim Click.

[Em]

Jeff Frost. Jeff Frost. And guess what Bob Knot and Jeff Frost did together? First, they kidnapped an elderly couple in Nevada and stole their travelers checks. They left them bound and gagged in a hotel room and fled to Oregon.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Em]

There they kidnapped another elderly man and stole his truck, then left him abandoned in the woods. And this is where things get really bad. Tons of trigger warnings for what's coming.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

The pair traveled to Eugene, Oregon and checked into a motel that was run by a husband and wife. When the husband left, Bob and Jeffrey held up the wife at gunpoint and forced her to empty the safe. Then they forced her and her infant daughter to wait until the husband came home. And once they did, they told them if they didn't cooperate, he would shoot their. They'd shoot his family. The next day, they forced the family to clear out the bank accounts. It was around this time that Bob and Jeffrey figured out the police were after them. And they hold. They stayed there for several days, and during that, Bob assaulted the wife repeatedly.

[Christine]

Jesus Christ.

[Em]

Eventually, Bob and Jeffrey took the family to some woods in Washington and left the husband there. And soon after that, they Spotted a patrol car and ran on foot. And the wife and baby were able to escape.

[Christine]

Only then I literally wasn't even taking a full breath until I figured out if they survived this. That's so dark.

[Em]

The next day, Bob and Jeffrey took more hostages. And they made the hostages drive them until they got to a house where they could take even more hostages. And this is where the police caught them. And a giant shootout began. Jeffrey was shot and killed, as was one of the hostages. Bob was shot in the neck and that's when he was arrested. In court, he claimed that it was because of his schizophrenia that he committed these crimes. But the court didn't believe that that was enough for an insanity plea. And he was also drunk and on coke at the time, which I'm sure didn't work in his favor. Bob Knott received two life sentences for his crimes. My uncle corresponded with him for a while in prison, and he me that Bob spent a lot of time in solitary confinement. Eventually, Bob died by suicide in prison. And there is a movie that was made about him in 91 called captive. And Bob is played by John Stamos.

[Christine]

What?

[Em]

Didn't see that coming at all. What is Rick? Does Rick get a feature in the movie?

[Christine]

I wonder what the dude.

[Em]

I haven't watched it yet and can't comment on how accurate it is, but my mom said the VHS tape they had originally recorded it on is probably still at her parents house. Side note, John Stamos was recently in my hometown playing with the Beach Boys. My uncle said he wanted to go and hold up a sign that said Bob not lived here. Oh, okay. Anyway, love you both. I figured it was time to irritate Christy on this podcast like you just said so.

[Christine]

Okay. Wow, thanks, Ela.

[Em]

Holy Jesus Christ.

[Christine]

This is like. This is like everybody, you know, when we talk about like everybody has a story you don't even know. Like you'll you know somebody for a long time and then you're like, I never told you about the time that.

[Em]

What was moving in silence. Moving in silence.

[Christine]

Literally, like I drove over myself with my car four times. Oh, I never told you that. You know, it's like that kind of thing of like. Oh, El. To just pop it in here to tell you about this horrible thing that happened. Oh my God. Okay, well, thank you, Elta. Now go back to be too Sandy.

[Em]

Yeah, actually just go away because that was crazy. I don't even know you.

[Christine]

It's usually actually pretty. Pretty good positive this. It's usually stuff I can use for my Art, you know, as M likes to say. And this one just felt like a big bummer. Okay, this is a story sent in by Andrea. She her. It says you're. Oh, weird. Your comment on beach to Sandy reminded me of an unsolved murder in a town I lived in.

[Em]

What is going on?

[Christine]

It's like em. It's like I'm doing so much for.

[Em]

The world without even just look up Bischu Sandy and our emails just wonder.

[Christine]

Maybe. But it's. This is only the second one. It says. Hey Eva M and Christine. I was just listening to your episode of beach to Sandy. Water too wet. Which I love that they're like I listen to your episode.

[Em]

In case you forgot, this is the name of it.

[Christine]

Yeah, about storage units, episode 141. And you said something that made me stop in my tracks and say oh my God. Christine needs to know about Candace Hilts. Years back I moved to Canyon City, Colorado with my shitty ex boyfriend Barf emoji. It had recently come out that the former Fremont County Detective Lt. Robert Dodd's storage unit had gone to auction and the new owner found evidence linked to the 2006 homicide of 17 year old Candace Hiltz. Candace had. Oh my God. Candace had been really outspoken about how corrupt the police force is and 10 town and she ended up being mysteriously killed in her home. While I can't speak to her experience, I do have my own experiences of corrupt and negligent law enforcement. I'm like what did I say on Beach Juice? Andy acap. Like I know what I said. Probably.

[Em]

Anything? Anything at all.

[Christine]

Right? Anything. Yeah, but. But that's a story for another time. Anyway, I highly recommend this the docu series Valley of the Damned episode on her. Also, if you watch the episode about Leah Porter, they do an interview in the restaurant I worked at and you can see a painting that I painted hanging on the wall in the background. Wow.

[Em]

Hang on.

[Christine]

They. They must have filmed shortly after my breakup because my ex had stolen or sold my paintings by the time I came back to get my stuff. That guy and the cops. Thank you, Andrea. And then it says P.S. i'll send this as its own story, but if you read this far, I may as well mention it here. There's a woman named Casey Yoder who's. Oh, I know about Casey Yoder who's missing from my hometown of Eaton, Colorado. There has not been any new information on her in months and her family still does not have answers, so. Also good. Good to look at. Jesus Christ. This is the most. What is Going on.

[Em]

I don't know. Eva had a. Had a different rough. A different pattern this time around. It was.

[Christine]

I think Eva just cried her way through the inbox.

[Em]

Yeah, I think. I think Eva wanted to feel something and she was like, let's just.

[Christine]

I hope.

[Em]

How dark can we go?

[Christine]

I hope she's feeling something now. And I hope it's Eva.

[Em]

Oops. I think she's giggling somewhere that she's put us through this. Okay. Okay. The next one is. Let me make sure that I say the right name. This is from Trina. He's a she. Her pronouns. Thank you for pronouns. And the subject line is long.

[Christine]

Long. Okay.

[Em]

When you throw away something innocuous. But it's kind of connected to a murder. Less a listener story and more a piece of advice. That's like the. The title of those old ass books I am always reading, you know, you know, when I.

[Christine]

They're like 40,000 words long and you're like, you are the first person to write a book. You didn't need to make it.

[Em]

I just.

[Christine]

Many words.

[Em]

Now I don't have to read it because I just. I know exactly what happens the whole.

[Christine]

Way through the whole appendix. And you get the whole summary in the. In the title. Yeah, the point.

[Em]

Well, here we go. This is from Trina. Trina says hi to everybody. And then as soon as someone old enough to be Christine and M's mother, I'm often surprised at how much I to the two ex, except at times when they talk about topics such as suitcases without wheels being ancient artifacts.

[Christine]

Okay, we did that again for the episode that comes out tonight at midnight because I remember you being like, remember how about. And we talk about that a lot. So sorry, Trina, in advance. That's coming up very soon.

[Em]

Well, every Sunday, I listen while I'm taking my dog Jasper for a hike in a nearby park. And the woods where we hike are usually pretty empty and always kind of dark, so the atmosphere is perfect. This morning I was listening to the chatter about getting rid of clutter, and I realized that I had to reach out with a story about the unexpected consequences from when I once did that. So so far it sounds like the moral is don't clean.

[Christine]

I mean, I'm already writing it down as advice. Yeah, thanks.

[Em]

When my husband and I first moved in together in 93, one of my first priorities was getting rid of a bunch of his junk to make space for my junk. I did that with Allison all the time.

[Christine]

I mean, it's important. It's really important for A healthy relationship. Relationship.

[Em]

It's getting really bad because now after so many years, Allison kind of has nothing and I have a lot. And I think she notices that. I know.

[Christine]

I'm sure she doesn't notice yet.

[Em]

I was cleaning out a closet when I found a cardboard box full of mostly crap, including an 8 by 10 glossy black and white photo of a former Miss West Virginia that was signed for him. You know what? Good for him.

[Christine]

Hot stuff. Yeah. Love that.

[Em]

My first reaction was to roll my eyes. My second. My second reaction was to wonder why the hell my husband has that photo. He is definitely not type to be into pageants or women who were into pageants.

[Christine]

I am intermediate eye roll. Okay?

[Em]

I would have. I would. I don't know if I would have even done that. I would have just been like, I don't even know. Just like.

[Christine]

I actually would rather not be part of this.

[Em]

Before I threw it away, I asked him about it and he laughed and said, oh, that's my friend Paulie's sister. When we were in high school, a bunch of us guys would drink and then go to Polly's house just to irritate her mom. And she was very proper and raised her daughters to be pageant queens. But Paulie wasn't like, sister was there. Her sister was there one day and insisted on giving us all guys autograph photos of her. I just threw it in the box and then I moved it into a dorm. And then I. It just came with me from apartment to apartment. After my husband confirmed the photo had no sentimental value, I threw it away without any thought. Until nearly four years later when the beauty queen in the photo was in the national news because her daughter JonBenet had been murdered.

[Christine]

Shut the up. Shut the up. What? That's crazy.

[Em]

That is so this person who is. Who listens to our show. Trina. Their husband knew John Bidet's mom. I couldn't believe I thrown away an autographed photo of Patsy Ramsey.

[Christine]

That's crazy.

[Em]

Signed specifically to my husband.

[Christine]

That's. That's.

[Em]

See, this is why you shouldn't.

[Christine]

This is why you never throw anything away. You have to be a partner.

[Em]

Why I don't throw my own stuff away. But this is also why if your partner's got a weird thing, maybe keep it anyway. Because it's.

[Christine]

It's the weird stuff. It's like how. And then it's like, how much room does a photo take up? You know? It's like, well, why don't we just put it in a weird form?

[Em]

At least Give her a scan. Give her.

[Christine]

Yeah, of like weird stuff that might mean something someday. I mean, of course it's. It's. Hindsight is 20 20. You would not have known that her daughter would get murdered in the most sensationalized case in history. But damn. Yeah, that is quite a fine.

[Em]

Imagine the dumpster diver who maybe found that.

[Christine]

I mean imagine, right? You're just like just kind of sitting there in a trash can. Oh my God.

[Em]

Well, when my mother in law died in 2021, my husband brought home another cardboard box full of random stuff. This time it was all his mother's items. And it was mostly full of photos of my husband and his brother and his sister growing up. However, there was a random. Some Olin Mills type portrait of a family I didn't recognize. I showed it to my husband, he said, oh, that's my friend Paulie's family. And then I recognized her again. And that was Patsy Ramsey as a teenager.

[Christine]

Jesus.

[Em]

That's cr.

[Christine]

I mean, that's really wild.

[Em]

I haven't thrown that photo away and I have attached a copy for your amusement. Best wishes and your efforts to remove clutter from your life. But keep in mind, sometimes the clutter might be more interesting than you can imagine. Tremendous, Trina. Oh, wow.

[Christine]

Gosh.

[Em]

Well done, Trina. What a story. The ups and downs were a ton.

[Christine]

I can't believe you even remembered that it was Patsy Ramsey in the photo. Like, I think the time must have been so right.

[Em]

I'm mad at men again because.

[Christine]

No, that doesn't sound right.

[Em]

Leave it to a random dude to not even. You know how, like, let's put it this way, you know how a guy would go out with his friends and then he comes back and then gives.

[Christine]

You zero quality update and he goes, he's blazing. You go and you go, oh, when. When was the baby born? Yesterday? And he goes, oh, I didn't ask. And it's like, yeah, it's like, oh.

[Em]

Yeah, they've been alone for 25 years.

[Christine]

They broke the baby's name. I don't know.

[Em]

They. They broke up after. After two decades. Oh my God.

[Christine]

Why?

[Em]

I don't know. Leave it to him to just keep calling this random a girl that you might need to be threatened by. Oh, that's my friend Paulie. You never wanted to say hey, by the way, this is fucking JonBenet Ramsey's mom.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's really wild. But I wonder if it's thing that happens to people who are super chill, like type B friends where it's like oh, that old thing? Yeah, that's just my friend Paulie's family.

[Em]

I'd be like, first of all, she clearly goes by Patsy now, so let's get that straight.

[Christine]

No, Paulie is the friend. Paulie's the brother.

[Em]

Oh, right, right, right, right, right.

[Christine]

So he's just saying he used to go to Paulie's house and be like.

[Em]

Anyway, I'm mad at your husband for you anyway.

[Christine]

Me too.

[Em]

Thanks, Trina.

[Christine]

Thanks, Trina. And thanks for listening to us. Even if you make we make you roll your eyes, it really is nice thing because I imagine we make a lot of people roll their eyes and not everyone sticks around. So I do appreciate that. Anyway, I think that's all we've got today. We do have two extra stories that will probably make it into, like, the next one or one of the upcoming ones. But either way, thank you everybody for sticking with us. And I am. I'm already looking forward to the birthday episode.

[Em]

I know. Oh, June.

[Christine]

It's next month. Can you believe that? That's weird.

[Em]

I can't believe it because every day is my birthday. So.

[Christine]

Okay, you're like, it's never left, actually.

[Em]

Be excited for everybody else to care.

[Christine]

I'm super happy for everyone else to care as well. And I can't wait to talk about it soon. So thank you, everybody. Sorry if my microphone was weird. It does. It sounds really staticky to me, but I don't know if that's my headphones or not. But if it is, I apologize to you and to Jack and thanks for being you. Send your stories in. You can go to nthatsbywedrink. Com and we have a submission form where you can send your stories and maybe we'll read it in a future episode.

[Em]

And that's why we drink.