Listener Stories: Vol. 110 featuring. Sarah Marshall

Summary

Podcast Summary: And That's Why We Drink - Listener Stories: Vol. 110 featuring Sarah Marshall

Release Date: December 1, 2025
Hosts: Christine Schiefer & Em Schulz
Guest: Sarah Marshall (Writer, Journalist, and Podcaster)
Theme: The intersection of murder, the paranormal, and the lasting legacy of Satanic Panic, featuring listener-submitted stories

---

Episode Overview

This special listener stories episode is themed around "Satanic Panic," the widespread fear in the 1980s and 90s that children and communities were under attack from satanic cults hiding in plain sight. To deepen the discussion, the hosts invite author and podcaster Sarah Marshall (“You're Wrong About”, “You Are Good”, “The Devil You Know”) to share perspective, commentary, and expertise as listeners recount personal and family stories linked to the panic, misinformation, and sometimes comic misunderstandings of that era.

---

Main Segments & Discussion Points

1. Introduction & Guest Welcome

• [04:17–06:01] Christine and Em introduce the Satanic Panic theme and welcome Sarah Marshall.
• Sarah describes herself humorously as a “proof that if you remain enthusiastic and interested in the same thing for 10 years or more, people will just decide to grade inflate you to an expert” (Sarah, 04:44).
• Sarah’s credentials include being a journalist, writer, and podcaster focused on the historical, cultural, and psychological echoes of Satanic Panic.

2. Listener Story #1: Satanic Panic and Pokémon

• [06:01–13:14]
• Story Summary: A woman recalls how, in 1990s rural Mexico, her brother’s Pokémon collectibles were burned by their mother after a sensationalist TV show claimed the franchise had satanic messages.
• Memorable moment: As the brother watches his collection go up in smoke, Christine jokes, “Even if it were satanic...don’t burn it. You’re just gonna release all the demons” (Christine, 07:52).
• Sarah’s Take: Marshall views this as classic panic over children’s toys, comparing it to past hysteria over cartoons like “Rainbow Brite.” She notes, “It’s interesting that it feels like the people who are scared of the devil are seeing him in everything historically. And, you know, that’s still been consistent” (Sarah, 11:57).
• Broader context discussed:
  • Parental fears as projections, not reality
  • Outsider media stoking moral panic
  • Harmless pastimes demonized by adults

3. The Role of Media and Authority in Spreading Panic

• Throughout the episode, there is discussion on:
  • Sensationalist news (e.g., TV segments, comics, pamphlets)
  • Amplification through authority figures (therapists, police, clergy)
  • The evolution of these moral panics in today’s digital landscape (AI-generated “kid’s content” that’s deeply disturbing)

4. Listener Story #2: Hypnotherapy, “Recovered Memories,” and Real Harm

• [17:50–26:20]
• Story Summary: Layla recalls how her friend’s mother, navigating anxiety and a bad therapist, was led through hypnotherapy to believe in a false history of satanic ritual abuse, resulting in social isolation and mental health crisis.
• Sarah’s Insight: The therapy techniques during the panic era became so cult-like that “the culture of the satanic panic itself came actually to resemble the kind of cult that they were looking for” (Sarah, 21:55). She discusses the real psychological fallout, especially for vulnerable women in therapy, and how memories—true or not—could become internal truths with repeated suggestion.

5. When Satanic Panic Meets Politics and Pop Culture

• [26:20–32:05]
• Sarah explains: The focus of Satanic Panic has shifted—no longer a bipartisan fear, it’s now “very much a politicized phenomenon…being used by the right...anytime someone criticizes you...you can just accuse your enemies of being Satanists” (Sarah, 27:16).
• The moral panic now functions as political distraction/redirection, rather than grassroots fear.

6. Listener Story #3: Dungeons & Dragons and Chick Tracts

• [33:02–41:43]
• Story Summary: A listener describes a college seminar where study of D&D led to exploring infamous anti-roleplaying comics—depicting fantasy gaming as a gateway to suicide and satanic contracts.
• Discussion:
  • D&D lumped in with other “dangerous” games/toys
  • Real consequences for misunderstood hobbies
  • Sarah: “It kind of left you no way to be a good kid...the devil is gonna get you...if you were a dorky kid who just wanted to...do some fantasy roleplaying...that was also satanic” (Sarah, 40:20). Highlights adult misunderstanding vs. kids’ actual knowledge of fantasy.

7. Listener Story #4: Unsolved Crime and Cult Fears in Ohio

• [45:40–52:14]
• Story Summary: Following a gruesome real crime, small-town Ohio pivots to daytime Halloween, blames cults, and accuses outsiders—though the eventual conviction was unrelated to the occult.
• Sarah’s Analysis: “The Satanic Panic was just kind of a bigger, badder version of [the tendency to blame outsiders or misunderstood people]...” (Sarah, 48:57). She notes how moral panics persist longer in isolated, anxious communities prone to rumors.

8. Listener Story #5: The Martensville Daycare Scandal in Canada

• [56:04–62:24]
• Story Summary: Multiple people, including police officers, were wrongly accused of satanic child abuse in 1992 due to mishandled interviews and hysteria. Charges were eventually dropped and settlements paid.
• Sarah clarifies: “It’s zero percent [real]...the idea that Satan needed to be involved I think was weirdly kind of a comfort to people...” (Sarah, 58:58).

9. Reflections on Denial, Projection, and the Persistence of Panic

• [62:24–76:00]
• The group discusses how scapegoating “the devil” or Satanic cults can be a way of avoiding the painful reality that average people—neighbors, relatives, even respected community members—commit terrible acts.
• “If my body is going to be dismembered...it’s in a way less scary...to think, okay, well, it’s this cult...as opposed to somebody just killing you for no good reason...” (Sarah, 53:44).
• The urge to demonize the unfamiliar or “different” remains present; anyone outside the norm (queer, goth, tattooed, punk, etc.) is targeted for persecution or “praying over” to remove evil.

10. Lighter Moments: Satanic Panic Turns Comic

• Frogs, not cultists: A woman in Alabama mistakes the chanting of frogs for satanic rituals and calls the police, only to find it was just bullfrogs by the creek (Christine, 81:08–82:51).
• Mel’s truck stop tale: Touring metal band members receive a “prayer exorcism” from a concerned woman, sign her gifted Bible, and sell it at the merch table (Mel’s story, 63:24–71:08).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sarah Marshall [04:44]: “If you want to, you can write [being an ‘expert’] all the way to Congress. And I think it’s very big of me to choose not to.”
• Christine [07:52]: “Even if it were satanic…don’t burn it. You’re just gonna release all the demons.”
• Sarah Marshall [13:06]: “If I were the Prince of Darkness, I would not be sneaking into people’s houses on pogs. You know, I just wouldn’t.”
• Sarah Marshall [21:55]: “The culture of the satanic panic itself came actually to resemble the kind of cult they were looking for.”
• Sarah Marshall [27:16]: “What’s nice is that…we don’t have, well meaning…feminists who got caught up in this out of the feeling that this was the only way that we were gonna have any kind of care offered for…abuse…now it’s…part of the right.”
• Sarah Marshall [40:20]: “It kind of left you no way to be a good kid…if you were, like, into metal…then, like, the devil is gonna get you that way…if you were, like, a dorky kid who…liked to go to concerts and party…then, like, that was also satanic.”
• Sarah Marshall [58:58]: “It’s zero percent…[of cases where Satanic cults were real].”
• Christine [81:08]: “Nothing to see here, officer. Nothing to see. Don’t look in my freezer.”
• Sarah Marshall [82:41]: “You’ll never escape the frog god.”
• Sarah Marshall [83:53]: “Don’t you think based on the time that [the cop] had a little mustache?”

---

Key Takeaways & Themes

• Satanic Panic thrives where anxiety, insularity, and lack of skepticism meet—often channeled through media and authority figures with their own agendas.
• The phenomenon exposed society’s discomfort with “the other”—be it kids' interests, outsider adults, or changing cultural norms.
• Projection and avoidance—blaming the devil distracts from uncomfortable truths about communities and abuses of power.
• Though Satanic Panic’s shape has changed, similar mechanisms of scapegoating persist, weaponized to suit new cultural and political needs.
• Humor, listener stories, and expert commentary offer catharsis and a reminder: sometimes, as with the frogs, the real answer is simpler and less sinister.

---

Episode Structure & Timestamps

• [04:17–06:01] – Introduction, guest welcome, setting episode theme
• [06:01–13:14] – Pokémon & Satanic Panic story
• [13:14–15:10] – Broader media fears, panics in pop culture
• [17:50–26:20] – Hypnotherapy, “recovered memories,” and real harm
• [26:20–32:05] – Political legacy of Satanic Panic
• [33:02–41:43] – Dungeons & Dragons, fantasy, and misunderstood hobbies
• [45:40–52:14] – Real crime, the urge to blame cultists
• [56:04–62:24] – Martinsville daycare abuse panic, zero real cults
• [63:24–71:08] – Metal band’s “bathroom exorcism” and merch Bible
• [81:08–82:51] – Alabama frog chorus mistaken for satanic chanting
• [83:53–84:44] – Reflections, Sarah’s podcast plug, closing thanks

---

Guest Plug & Additional Resources

• Sarah Marshall’s new podcast: “The Devil You Know” (CBC Podcasts) — Investigating the stories and fallout of Satanic Panic and moral panics across North America
• Her other work: “You’re Wrong About”, “You Are Good”

---

Final Thoughts

• Moral panics are cyclical, fueled by fear and misunderstanding—whether about Pokémon, pogs, D&D, or the “frogs down by the creek.”
• Understanding the real motivations and damage done by these panics matters—with humor and empathy, we can reckon with the past and avoid repeating it.
• Sometimes the “satanic” chant in the woods is just bullfrogs. And that’s why we drink.

---

For more chilling stories and skepticism, visit And That’s Why We Drink and Sarah Marshall’s podcast, The Devil You Know.

Transcript

[Em]

This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. We have been using Squarespace since we started the podcast before, like since we.

[Christine]

Before we launched it, which is.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah. So we've been using it longer than the podcast has been around because we have been. We were building out our website and it was so easy. For two people who've never built a website. It was just kind of a plug and chug situation. They made it so user friendly.

[Christine]

It's so true. And we've stuck around with them because since then they've only gotten better and more, you know, integrations, more features. For example, let me give you like a little situation here. If you're going to fundraise, which we're. We're not right now, but you know, if we want to go to the Mothman festival and we need to fundraise for that, for example, you can fundraise directly on your website and grow your impact. With built in donation tools you can create a professional on brand website that makes it easy to accept one time or recurring contributions from your lovely fans. No, I'm kidding. With built in email campaigns and marketing tools that's also like a huge selling point. You can connect with your community and inspire more people to support your cause, which is a really cool angle.

[Em]

Yeah. Any reason you need a website, Squarespace is there for you. Head to squarespace.com drink for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code drink to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Knock knock. It's Santa. Just kidding. But it's someone who's going to be buying a lot of presents for Christmas and I don't have to worry about where I'm shopping because we are working with Uncommon Goods, which I'm very excited about this. I found out that they were one of our sponsors. I was like, this is going to be the easiest endorsement I've ever done my life. We've been using Uncommon Goods for so long. It is the dream Christmas present website. Just buying yourself a fun little treat.

[Christine]

It's like something for everyone. And I don't just say that like it's really true. I bought my sister one year a from Uncommon Goods a green onion regrower kit. She loves green onions. I don't know. I was like, how the heck do they have the perfect gift for my sister who loves green onions? I don't know, but it just happened.

[Em]

Uncommon Goods makes holiday shopping stress free and joyful with thousands of one of a kind gifts you can't find anywhere else. I'VE also found a lot of plant enthusiast gifts over there. I've gotten house and a whole like indoor wall grow kit. I've gotten you and Eva gifts from there. Likewise.

[Christine]

It's a great website, so don't wait. Make this holiday the year you give something truly unforgettable. To get 15% off your next gift, go to uncommongoods.com drink.

[Em]

That's uncommongoods.com drink for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon goods were all out of the ordinary.

[Christine]

So we talk a lot about what makes us drink every week. But for some people, these kind of thoughts about what makes things scary in life feel so out of character that they can paralyze you with anxiety. They're often called intrusive thoughts and they can be debilitating. That's what OCD or Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is like. It can demolish your quality of life. And I know because I have OCD myself. And I was really fortunate when I started going to therapy and my therapist happened to have specialized an OCD and recognized it right away. But I think it would have taken me a lot longer to figure it out or to find any sort of guidance or help if I hadn't met her. And that's why I'm so thankful for nocd. It's such a great platform. They make OCD feel so much less isolating because OCD often goes hand in hand with shame or not wanting to be open about these things. And not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. OCD is highly treatable, though, with a specialized type of therapy called erp, or Exposure and Response Prevention. With nocd, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in ocd. NOCD therapists are highly trained, so they really understand OCD and they won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about.

[Sarah Marshall]

Okay?

[Christine]

No matter what. NOCD therapy is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. They also have an awesome community on there. I'm part of it. I love to see other people's success stories or just even venting that kind of thing. If you think you or someone you know might be struggling with OCD, please don't wait to get help. Go to nocd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's nocd.com to schedule a free call and learn more.

[Em]

Happy December everybody. It is another listeners Episode for you where we read your submitted stories. Sometimes they are spooky, sometimes they are true crimey. But today we have a theme. It is all about Satanic panic.

[Christine]

This month, because we have an expert. We have an expert on our panel. It's the first time we've ever had a panel and we have an expert.

[Sarah Marshall]

Today, so I feel like that word is appropriate.

[Christine]

Hello, Sarah. Would you like to introduce yourself?

[Sarah Marshall]

Hi, yeah, my name is Sarah Marshall and I am not a Satanic Panic expert, but I am proof that if you remain enthusiastic and interested in the same thing for 10 years or more, people will just decide to grade inflate you to an expert. Exactly. If you want to, you can write that all the way to Congress. And I think it's very big of me to choose not to.

[Christine]

Totally, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll give you the label. You don't have to accept it.

[Em]

Yeah, no.

[Sarah Marshall]

So, yeah, well, I guess put it on the table and cut off small slices to eat.

[Christine]

It's beautiful. Wow, how poignant.

[Em]

Yeah, this is Sarah Marshall. Let me know if I get anything else wrong, but I'm going to call you a journalist, a writer and a podcaster. All those fit? Yeah, okay, perfect.

[Sarah Marshall]

Those are definitely objectively ways factual. Those are objectively true facts.

[Em]

Satanic panic, Armchair expert.

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, it's been a long year. I don't know words anymore.

[Em]

Well, we have a few stories we're going to read and of course, if you have any feedback or input, we would love to hear that. Or, you know, it's pretty lax over here, so we would love to hear your thoughts on people's experiences. Christine, do you wanna start?

[Christine]

Sure.

[Em]

Okay.

[Christine]

If I may. All right. Actually, maybe you should have started, but it's too late, Em, because this one is called Satanic Panic and Pokemon.

[Em]

Oh, great, great, great. That's one of my big fixations.

[Christine]

Sarah's like, I'm already in on the wrong podcast. This is already already derailing. Okay, this is from Paola. She her. And it says, hi, everyone. I saw your story on Instagram asking for Satanic Panic stories and immediately thought of my mom. Oh, that's nice. My family's all originally from a small farming town in Mexico. Everyone knows everyone in their business type beat. On top of that, everyone is very Catholic. Yippee. Since it was such a small town, all the moms knew each other and gossip together and whatnot. So you best believe word gets around quickly. This particular story revolves around my brother. It takes place in the 90s when he was 8 or 9. Before we moved to the States. Back then, when you would buy a bag of chips, lots of time there would be some form of collectible in the bag. Usually a small toy, like something that would come in a Kinder egg. My brother collected a specific kind called tazos. Small metallic or wooden discs with designs on it. He collected the Pokemon ones, and he had a lot. I mean, more than any other kid in town.

[Em]

And.

[Christine]

And back then, games and collecting was taken very seriously. While my brother was amassing his collection, my mom was growing concerned. You see, all the moms would watch this news program called Premier Impacto, or First Impact in English. It shared news, but was way too dramatic for its own good. Apparently, it ran a segment linking Pokemon to the devil, detailing all the subliminal satanic messages in the show and the games. So as moms in the 90s, the. They all panicked and they believed it. One day, my brother came home from school and found my mom in the backyard next to a bonfire.

[Em]

Oh, gosh. Burning all of his Pokemon.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Christine]

And I just want to say, like, even if it were satanic. Especially if it were satanic, don't burn it. You're just gonna release all the demons.

[Sarah Marshall]

We're the ones who have to tell people that. They should know.

[Em]

It's like, that's the most ritualistic thing that's happened to these Pokemon.

[Christine]

You're probably creating the problem. Exact.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Oh, okay. What was in the fire, you ask? Good question. All of his tazos. His collection was wasting away in a fiery blaze before his very eyes. This is very traumatic.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Christine]

You can imagine how distraught he was. M it is calling you out. It would basically be if someone burned your whole Pokemon card collection.

[Em]

It couldn't be done without me committing a crime afterwards.

[Sarah Marshall]

The value of those demons on ebay today.

[Christine]

Haunted burned demonic Pokemon card. Yeah, that's actually probably. You could get quite a profit.

[Em]

They're super rare, I guess, or perfectly singed.

[Sarah Marshall]

You know that's right.

[Christine]

90S, yeah. For sure.

[Em]

Previously satanic.

[Christine]

She said she did it because he didn't. She didn't want him being exposed to the devil's messages. To this day, we always bring it up whenever we want to give my mom grief. It's funny now, but probably not back then. In any case, that news show always ran crazy and spread a lot of panic. Back in the day. I'm not sure if it's airing still, but everyone is less prone to believing it now. I'm sure our parents have moved on to believing AI images of Jesus surfing on Lava on Facebook or something like that. Justice from my brother and love you all lots. Bye bye, Paula. The end.

[Em]

Paula.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Em]

Yeah, I, you know, I remember going through a phase where I learned about music like backmasking, which is like, when you play a song backwards and it might have a message, paul is a dead man.

[Sarah Marshall]

Kill him. Kill him.

[Em]

Well, the Pokemon theme song, apparently, when you play it backwards, does say, I love Satan. I love Satan. So not to.

[Sarah Marshall]

Not to.

[Christine]

You were in a past life, a producer on this fucking television show. I mean, it was while you were alive. So that's probably not how that works. But I feel like you'd fit right in, like, some sort of yellow journalism.

[Em]

I feel like with, like, with Pokemon, it's very, well, not very similar, but I feel like it fell into the same, you know, blacklisted categories like Harry Potter and things like that. I don't know why. Maybe it's because it's animals that are unnatural or something. I mean, what's your take on this, Sarah?

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, I mean, I think based on the story of the Velveteen Rabbit, we can actually assume that all the Pokemon became real. They wandered off into the countryside.

[Christine]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah Marshall]

Right?

[Em]

That's a great point.

[Sarah Marshall]

At the moment, the fire started and saved themselves and they're still out there somewhere. So I think that's really nice.

[Christine]

But I have a community.

[Sarah Marshall]

I feel like, again, I mean, I have like a blind spot in this area because I've researched the satanic panic for years, but personally have never believed in the devil. And I just. I don't care about the devil. You know, it's just not an exciting or scary area for me because I feel like, like, if you want to scare me, just like, put on, you know, anything on the investigation Discovery Channel about a guy named Dale and I'll be sad.

[Em]

You're in the right place.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah. This is where Em and I kind of have like, the differing. Where I'm like, ah, fuck it. And Em's always a little more. Being the Jewish one is always like, I'll say the Our Father, just in case. Just in.

[Em]

You never know which one's gonna work.

[Christine]

So it sounds like whatever saves me.

[Sarah Marshall]

Saves me because you gotta be pragmatic. But yeah, I feel like this is the kind of thing where it's like. And, you know, the satanic panic. Historically, there's been a lot of panic over children's toys. And Chelsea Weber Smith over at American Hysteria has done some great research on like, you know, specifically the panic around kind of like 80s Saturday morning cartoons. And I think like, for example, Rainbow Brite was supposed to be like, you couldn't let your kids watch Rainbow Brite because she was, I don't know, pagan or something. It's what I didn't know that.

[Christine]

It's like none of these things were a thing until they pointed at it and said that's she's pagan. And suddenly it's like, oh, I guess she is now. I don't know.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, it's interesting that it feels like the people who are scared of the devil are seeing him in everything historically. And, you know, that's still been consistent.

[Christine]

Well, these little guys and everyone. And you know, I read a review that was like this labubu and they were like, oh my God, the church needs to see step in. And I'm like, what is going on? Very bad about that.

[Sarah Marshall]

And it's like, well, I would like it if like, we did more, you know, sort of to encourage over consumption less as a function of organized religion. But that's not what people are saying.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's not the point. Right, exactly. I'm like, I could understand your point if that.

[Sarah Marshall]

So I guess the idea that the devil is like, I don't know, I find it. I mostly find it confusing and I just want to hear more about it, honestly, where it feels like there's this idea that the devil is like, very powerful, very scary, can literally take your soul, but also is like, forced to do something as undignified as like, sneaking in on like, I know these aren't pogs, but I'm just picturing pogs. It looks like a pog.

[Christine]

He sneaks in on a pog. Exactly. Like, he must not be very impressive and, or convincing or influential if he needs to like, get little kids on board via Rainbow Britain.

[Sarah Marshall]

If I were the Prince of Darkness, I would not be sneaking into people's houses on pogs. You know, I just wouldn't.

[Christine]

I mean, maybe we just don't get it. You know, maybe there's.

[Sarah Marshall]

We just don't get it. Yeah. And that's okay. But I, you know, but the thing is like, speaking of AI images of Jesus, like, I do find it interesting that there is such a market. And this is kind of getting back to, you know, what Elsa gate was like 10 years ago. But now we have the capacity to create like endless AI videos. And have you seen the ones like the AI slot videos? And this is like a defined genre of like cats accidentally cooking their kittens into, like, there's a mom cat and she accidentally puts her kitten in, like, some food that she's making because she's thinking about having an affair. Off. They're always cats.

[Em]

Hello.

[Sarah Marshall]

And then her husband comes home and they eat the kitten lasagna. And then they realize what's happened and he calls the cat police and they arrest her. And that's like the story. And that's a genre of narrative that's being shown to, like, really little kids.

[Christine]

I'm assuming this is on the dark web, right? Like, I wouldn't have access to this kind of thing.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's just on kids. YouTube. Oh, good.

[Christine]

It's on my daughter's iPad. Okay, excellent.

[Sarah Marshall]

Good, good, good. So we have, like, human beings who were intentionally terrifying children because it's, like a little bit more profitable than doing, you know, back in the good old days of 2019 when we just had like Eastern European kinetic sand slicing videos, which I'm very nostalgic for at this point.

[Christine]

Beautiful.

[Sarah Marshall]

I would like to panic more about that, you know, but I guess since the devil isn't involved, it's not as exciting.

[Christine]

It's not as smiling.

[Em]

Exactly. Oh, my gosh. Well, yeah, I.

[Sarah Marshall]

And it's promoting family values because that mom cat was thinking about having sex, so that's why she killed her kitten, actually. So it's really. It's very Christian.

[Christine]

I guess that's right. That's kind of what they would teach you in Sunday school.

[Em]

Anyway, it is interesting that that's not at least equally demonic as pogs.

[Christine]

Yeah, that part's not a concern to the church.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's just.

[Christine]

It's just the actual if.

[Sarah Marshall]

Look, I was a very sensitive kid, and if I had seen like one video of like a mom cat accidentally making her baby into meatballs, I would have never recovered.

[Christine]

Oh, I'm barely recovering right now.

[Sarah Marshall]

I'm barely recovering.

[Christine]

Just.

[Em]

I'm going to think about it for the rest of the day. Thank you.

[Sarah Marshall]

Exactly. Yeah. I'm sorry.

[Christine]

I'm sorry to tell you that this whole genre. That's the fact that it's a genre makes me just want to cry.

[Em]

Yeah. That it's a series. It's like, what else is gonna happen to these kittens?

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, a lot of, like, inter. Kitten family murder.

[Christine]

Disturbing.

[Em]

Yeah. And not a problem at all. Would you like to read a story or would you like us to read.

[Christine]

Them to you, to regale you with them?

[Sarah Marshall]

I would love to read one.

[Em]

Okay. Would you like to read the next one?

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Is that just like two form submission Hypnosis number two. That's right. Okay.

[Christine]

So oftentimes I'll have that last minute scramble, like trying to find a thoughtful gift, but then like having to swing the opposite direction and get like a last minute gift card or something. No more of this, okay? This year I skipped the panic and gave an aura frame instead. It's such a great gift. They have unlimited free photos and video on there. You just download the Aura app and connect to WI fi. So your receiver, your recipient, does not even need to, you know, pay for an account or anything. It's so easy on the receiving end and it's honestly really easy on the giving end, especially because you can preload photos before it ships and then when it gets to the recipient, they get to open it and see all these beautiful photos. I mean, you could do family photos. You could also do something like real wild. I don't know, you could put like conspiracy theory pictures or like. Oh. One time I used an aura frame to surprise my grandmother in law. I put the ultrasound picture on, I sent it to her frame and it showed up as a new picture. And that's how we told her she was getting her first great grandbaby. So, you know, there's lots of fun stuff you can do. You can get weird with it if you want, but we'll leave that to, you know, like a side chat, I guess. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no extra price tag. You can't wrap this kind of thing. Okay. It's just beautiful. You can frame it. Let aura frame it. Let or frames frame it. Okay, I'm sorry, I need a nap. For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get 35 off or as best selling Carver matte frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code ATWWD at checkout. That's auraframes.com promo code ATWWD. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[Sarah Marshall]

Dear Christine, who should always be named first? Em, you're so pretty. And Eva, thank you for keeping it all together for them.

[Christine]

I think they got us mixed up, Em.

[Em]

You know what?

[Christine]

Obviously I'm the beauty of the group, right?

[Em]

Right, Right.

[Sarah Marshall]

You know what? We'll figure we'll litigate it all out after. Okay, so. So Layla writes, I'm a Capricorn, so I never thought I would have a story I could share on the paranormal side. God, this is an incredible start. Thank you.

[Christine]

Welcome to our podcast.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I light up a room so my chance of being murdered is greatly reduced. But then m covered. Mesmer. I have a great and terrible story about hypnosis, specifically hypnotherapy. Oh, boy. When I was young, we had family friends who would occasionally get to wait. When I was young, we had family friends we would occasionally get together with. I loved going over to their house, but always thought the mom, let's call her Elizabeth, was very nice but weird. For example, the kids had the best toys, but Elizabeth wouldn't let me, the youngest by a year, play with the Barbies. She was convinced I would swallow the shoes even though I was already quite past that stage in life. It wasn't until I was an adult that I understood that she struggled with severe anxiety. I believe it was anxiety that led her to seek professional help from a therapist. Before I go farther, I want to say I'm a big supporter of therapy. I think working with a good therapist is so important and I'm glad she was seeking help. Unfortunately, I think this therapist did more harm than good. Her therapist encouraged the use of hypnotherapy to uncover repressed memories.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Sarah Marshall]

It is important to know that this was the late 80s, early 90s, in the midst of the satanic panic. The local newspaper was printing headlines like, quote Satanism growing worry for police and satanic cults growing in preserves. Which I feel like that's supposed to be like national forest or something, but it just makes me think about jam too.

[Christine]

I was like, we pickling them. What's happening?

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, you got to sterilize your jars or you're going to get a satanic.

[Christine]

Oh my God.

[Em]

Imagine devilish marmalade. Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

So she goes on. The combination of the media flooding households with fear mongering headlines and Elizabeth's extreme anxiety made hypnotherapy a disaster for her and her family. Elizabeth's therapist, quote, guided her to, quote, memories of her uncle being the leader of a satanic cell. The therapist helped create so called memories of witnessing rapes and sacrifices, both human and animal. She ended up believing that her uncle was possessed by a demon and friends and neighbors from her childhood were his followers. The poor woman who already lived day to day with mundane fears such as kids choking on Barbie shoes also had to live in a world where she believed that people she once loved and trusted had performed satanic rituals on her and anyone she knew could be a Satanist in disguise. The hypnosis led her to cut contact with her extended Family and most of her friends. She ended up being so rattled, she stopped going to work and was fired. She eventually cut contact with our family as well. I still think about her to this day and hope she got real help. Good luck to you and all your listeners. Be careful when it comes to hypnosis and stay away from Ouija boards. Those things are messed up lately.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Wow. Dude. Okay, so, I mean, you hear about these things, right? And I guess obviously they happen, but it's. It's wild to hear, like, oh, I knew a woman who went through that exact scenario.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I think that's like, one of the funny things about so much of the satanic panic is that a lot of us is that a lot of it didn't even rise to the level of news. You know, like, you could have someone go through, like, very destructive and dangerous therapy as part of this bigger movement, and unless it ended up in some kind of a massive lawsuit, fair point.

[Em]

Right.

[Sarah Marshall]

You know, it was just. There's, I think, so many people out there with these stories.

[Christine]

Wow, that's dark. Because it's like you're already vulnerable. You're already mentally trying to find help and not in the best place. And then it's like, oh, I know what'll fix it.

[Em]

Everyone around me I can't trust and maybe hurt me.

[Sarah Marshall]

And.

[Em]

Oh, man.

[Sarah Marshall]

I mean, there are ways in which I think that the culture of the satanic panic itself came actually to resemble the kind of cult that they were looking for. And I realize they say the word cult like cult like a baby horse, but just, I mean, I don't know, you could even notice, and it would be soothing. Yeah, I love that. I love it to the extent that there's an Oregon accent. That's like, the only way that I can hear it manifesting.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

These satanic cults, you know, just running wild and free. But I feel like, you know, especially in the therapy arm of it, there are, you know, there's kind of a distinct pattern of women, you know, seeking therapy, starting therapy, having a therapist who's kind of bought in on this idea of recovering memories, just like the therapist in this story, and who basically will not see stop until you confirm their thesis, which is that any kind of depression or issues with mental health, like, probably has come from satanic abuse, and you should probably just produce a story about it, or else you're not going to get better. And that there's also this trend where, you know, for a lot of women who went through this and it was overwhelmingly women who this therapy was targeted at. You would, you know, be in these long therapeutic sessions. Potentially you would be under hypnosis, you know, not just for an hour, but for perhaps several hours at a time. Especially if your insurance was covering that, which it used to. And you would go to groups with other people who were allegedly, you know, recovering memories of satanic abuse. You would kind of compare notes and often kind of feel like, well, if this is happening to this other person in my area, then it must have happened to me. Because the theory is that, you know, by definition, you don't. You're not in therapy for the things you remember. You're in therapy for the things that you don't. And then often if you know, and kind of, again, like, as this letter talks about, the therapy would have this, like, very damaging effect on your life where you would, like, lose the ability to work, lose the ability to parent, potentially. You were kind of being forced to spend so much time thinking about these traumatic experiences, like in a hypnotic situation state, that even if they had never actually happened, you were kind of creating the impact of them being a part of your life. And so the women who dropped out of this therapy or whose insurance stopped covering it or who got dropped by their therapists for whatever reason or stopped going to these groups, often it was the case that you would just kind of. Without putting that effort into telling yourself that this is what you had been through, it just stopped feeling real, because it wasn't.

[Christine]

Yeah, okay. I was gonna ask that. I was gonna ask if those memories persisted as real seeming or if they kind of faded.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, well, and I think that there were also some people for whom they did persist. I think it's probably very personal. And there's an hero article that I wish I could remember the author of, but that came out maybe 10 years ago that talks about one of the effects of false confession being that if you are kind of in a situation where you are interrogated by the police long enough that you are told sort of kind of in a situation not too different from this type of therapy, that, like, no, we know that you committed this crime, so you might as well confess to make it easier. That if you were asked to tell that story over and over again and told, you know, by authority figures, that contrary to what you claim, this is actually what happened, it's possible to create those memories for yourself and not be able to get rid of them. And there are some people for whom that stays very real, and some people who are able to slip out of it. But it's also possible to believe that you committed a crime that you were physically incapable of actually committing. And I think that that's just a very. Maybe something that we don't want to believe about how memory works, you know, because that's pretty scary.

[Christine]

Yeah. And they talk about witness, you know, witness reports being very, very faulty, more faulty than people realized until they started studying it. And it's like you don't. Like your brain can easily switch, like a perceived thought into your own reality so quickly that. Yeah, that's just like a slippery slope for. For. I'm glad, I'm glad that, that, that satanic panic has for the most part, not become like a very, very. Well, I guess. I don't know. Would you agree, Sarah? That has not become like a very lasting. Like it kind of had its.

[Sarah Marshall]

I think that it. I mean, it's interesting because I feel like we're living through some form of satanic panic now, but it feels very different because I think it's like, it's very much a politicized phenomenon and it's very much being used by the right. And what's nice is that we don't have like, well meaning, you know, because in the 80s you would have, like, not at all conservative, but just kind of well meaning feminists who got caught up in this out of the feeling that this was the only way that we were gonna have any kind of care offered for, you know, for people who had been through sexual abuse or trying to prevent child abuse in the future. And so now it feels like it's very much a product of the right. And it's really what we're seeing now is kind of anytime someone criticizes you, anytime your policies seem crazy because they are, anytime you're like, needing to explain away the criminal history of the current president, you can just accuse your enemies of being Satanists.

[Em]

Right.

[Sarah Marshall]

And that's enough. I guess it feels like he's more as a band aid. Yeah. Or both.

[Christine]

Why not? Well, they're probably similar. Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

What.

[Em]

What do you think? I'm trying to figure out the best way to. To pose the question, but when do you feel like the quintessential satanic panic kind of died off and.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah.

[Em]

Or do you. Do you feel like it's kind of just maybe redefine. No, Morphed. Morphed.

[Sarah Marshall]

I guess everybody who studies this has a slightly different answer. I'm sorry, what were you saying?

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, no, I was gonna ask if you thought it had morphed into something else. But I guess I mean politically.

[Sarah Marshall]

Sorry, go on, keep cutting you off.

[Em]

No, no, no, you're okay, I guess with everyone's, at least in my world and in Christine's world, we're often surrounded by a lot of people who are like now proudly, outspokenly into like, you know, witchcraft or, you know, more spiritualism.

[Sarah Marshall]

And things like that.

[Em]

How, how did we go from satanic panic to this like, space where everyone can.

[Christine]

Yeah, you know, we're like witchy is just an aesthetic. Like. Yeah.

[Em]

Or like they can proclaim the stuff and there's no satanic panic that's, you know, kind of pressing them away from it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, well, it's funny because I just, I was in kind of East Kentucky, which is where the, the show, the Satanic panic show that I have out the devil. You know, where that story kind of starts because we begin with about this woman being chased out of town for daring to try and teach photography to teenagers because a rumor started that she was looking for blonde blue eyed kids to sacrifice. And it seems that that took off partly because a Patrick Swayze movie was being filmed in the area. Oh, why not? Why not draw that conclusion?

[Christine]

Of course.

[Sarah Marshall]

And so I was like, I was in that part of the country having this feeling of like, wow, this is where, you know, I like being a stranger in town. I like being a woman who shows up and, you know, is doing something for the arts. And so it, I don't know, to me, starting with that story feels like this kind of. It could happen to me kind of a thing. And I remember going to a coffee shop and getting. I think actually it was like a homemade kind of version of the Halloween Alani knew, but it was called the Witch's Broom. So it was like a caramel and apple kind of like cute energy drink. It was very cute. And it was, it made me think about like, yeah, we've like commodified a witch aesthetic. We have the, we're living in the area of the Stevie Nicks Barbie. So like we have sort of Wikina certainly is doing well, you know, as, as sort of a vibe that, you know, we, we understand as part of the aesthetics of the world that we live in. But I think the metaphor that I, that I use is just going back to like Stephen King's it as a comparison, which I'm not gonna offer any spoilers, but basically the idea is that, you know, sometimes, sometimes the great evil comes to town and it doesn't stop or die. It just takes a nice big nap and then it comes back, and then you have to come back and, you know, reunite with your friends. So that's really nice.

[Christine]

And sometimes the devil flies in on a pog. You really never know what you're gonna get sometimes.

[Sarah Marshall]

Sometimes the pogs will set him free.

[Christine]

Oh, my God. Wow, that's so beautiful.

[Sarah Marshall]

But, well, but what I think, really, is that a moral panic is always going to be useful for people who are in power, to stay in power, regardless of what they've done.

[Christine]

That'll be a push and pull, and.

[Sarah Marshall]

That'S always going to be needed by people. Because I think in the 80s, there was this. You know, especially in the early 80s, we were beginning to reckon in a mainstream way with the reality of child abuse and child sexual abuse. And there was this implicit question of, like, who's doing this and why? And it's like, well, mostly mental, who just are known to the child who they're abusing. And they're often protected by organized religion and not Satanism because, like, there's a lot of sexual abuse. And, like, that is fostered by extremely hierarchical organizations. Like a church.

[Christine]

No. Look at the Satanists. It's like, no way. The call's coming from inside the house.

[Sarah Marshall]

Exactly. Yeah. So whenever the call's coming from inside the house, and again today, right, where we have, like, you know, we have a lot of rapists in the White House, like, more even than in the past. I know. I'm sorry to say something that no one has noticed yet.

[Em]

Breaking news on him.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's why we drink, you know, but, like, if you have, like, a really, really scary man as president, you have to invent the idea of even scarier people.

[Christine]

Exactly. What are you going to point to? The bad guy.

[Em]

Excellent.

[Sarah Marshall]

You got to make somebody up because, like, he's a very scary guy. You have to really, like, stretch your imagination.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

You got to think of something wor.

[Em]

Yeah, it's a real game of, like, sleight of hand or redirection. So you're not paying attention to the actual double.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's. It's just to quote Wallace Shawn and the Princess Bride. What in the world is that thing? That's so good.

[Christine]

And honestly, we don't quote that movie enough.

[Em]

No. And I guess this is also where we should plug your other podcast, you are Good, which is a movie. Movie podcast. Well, that's where you're getting all your quotes from, I think. Probably. But both interests are shining in the same conversation.

[Christine]

Amazing.

[Sarah Marshall]

I think that the Princess Bride became so overquoted by millennials that we Just put it on.

[Christine]

I think we did it too. Yeah. I was gonna say I think it's been. It's like you said with the it thing. Like I think it's time. It's take a nap. It took a nap.

[Sarah Marshall]

That is like a very friendly return. Yeah. The Princess Bride is back in Derry. That's a good thing.

[Christine]

Oh my God. Mandy Patinkin. Let's just like live in that space for. Yeah, for a little while. That'll be great.

[Em]

Well, I've got a. Hello lady. I've got a third story for everyone. This is from Haley and Haley, let's see what she has to say. Hello M. Christine et al and Sarah.

[Christine]

At all.

[Em]

First off, love your podcast. And then Haley says some very nice things about us and our live show in Kansas City. Now onto your call for stories about satanic panic. As soon as I saw this prompt, I knew I needed to write in. I have the unique experience of or I had the unique experience in college of having to learn about the satanic panic of the 1980s in reference to the rise of the popularity of Dungeons and Dragons. I will say now brief trigger warning as the story will include references to depictions of suicide. My first year at college, we were assigned a first year seminar course where we learned about a specific topic for a se for a semester with the added bonus that faculty would support. Were supposed to use this class to teach students how not to fail at college, I. E. Explaining deadlines, personal accountability and planning for assignments. My class was taught by an eccentric but sweet professor who walked in on the first day of class with no shoes and a ponytail that went all the way down to his back. You know, you know it's going to be a good time when that's, that's what I'm like.

[Christine]

I'm like locked in. I'm like, I'll put my phone down for this.

[Em]

He's not like the rest.

[Sarah Marshall]

He proceeded where the chanterelles are.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm going to his. What do you call it? What's the office hours? Yeah, yeah, 100.

[Em]

He plays ping pong in there or something for sure. Bruises on me.

[Christine]

Bean bags in there. There's no like real chairs.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You call him by his first name, obviously. He proceeded to sit cross legged of course on the table, of course at the front of the classroom and said call me John. Literally did I not just knew it, I knew it.

[Christine]

I almost said Jeff. I was close, but John.

[Em]

Yeah, yeah, promise.

[Sarah Marshall]

I didn't read ahead.

[Em]

That was just a full. I could feel it in my.

[Christine]

Now wait till we get to a beanbag. Then we'll really have nailed it.

[Em]

Yeah, call me John. You can call me professor or doctor, but I likely won't know you're talking to me if you don't call me John. This sets the tone for the whole class. Then proceeded to show us the bridge scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. John seminar focused on the theme of analog game studies where we studied any game that was not and pondered the ever important philosophical question of what is a game and what counts as a game?

[Christine]

Whoa.

[Em]

This guy just got a degree and said, I'm gonna start riffing in this class.

[Sarah Marshall]

And he's like, I'm gonna get so.

[Christine]

High and then write a syllabus.

[Em]

But you know what? You actually do take something away, I'm sure from it. Like he's. It's one of those classes where you're like.

[Christine]

Is a real thinker. You're never thinking.

[Em]

I kid you not answering this question. Every class was a part of our participation grade and the answer usually boiled down to yes. This counts as a game. Okay. Okay. Which leads us into the extensively covered.

[Christine]

Or.

[Em]

Oh. Which leads us into extensively covering Dungeons and Dragons for a quarter of the semester. One of the first things John had us look at was reading articles and comics on how Dungeons and Dragons caused a rise in satanic panic in the 80s. Parents and religious organizations were growing more and more concerned that the act of playing Dungeons and Dragons would jeopardize someone's soul or that they were making a contract with. With the devil by playing this game. This led to John assigning us a reading on a comic. And this comic depicts what a very conservative sect of Christianity believed Dungeons and Dragons was really doing. D and D was poisoning and destroying young lives. And I will. I'll now walk you through this comic. It starts with two teenage girls excitedly playing D and D. But they have to sign this mysterious and scary looking contract with a dungeon master that seems untrustworthy. The dungeon master mercilessly kills one of the girl's characters in the campaign and does not make any attempt to soothe her when she is devastated about it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, no.

[Em]

The two girls go their separate ways. And cut to one of the girls finding out that the friend is now dead and reading her suicide note where the friend says she blames herself for her own character dying.

[Christine]

What?

[Sarah Marshall]

So very good chance this is a chick tract. Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

This is wild.

[Em]

It was her fault that the character died and she implied that her suicide will somehow make this right. Like she deserves. Okay, well, gross. The other girl, reasonably horrified, is not doing well. But here steps in the church as a savior.

[Christine]

Oh, good.

[Em]

She turns back. She turns her back on dnd. And the last image of this comic shows her gratefully staring at a light falling from the sky, spotlighting her, her hands clasped and gaze Reverend Jesus Christ.

[Christine]

Oh, literally, but literally.

[Em]

My first thought after reading this was, oh my God, how did they make those jumps? And logic. Did anyone actually believe this? I stared at the page for a full minute after just having a what the heck did I read? Moment. My classmates shared the same sentiment when we discussed it in class. And many of us had played DND by that point, as playing at least one session was a requirement of this class, of course. And obviously this guy just wanted. Just. He just needed a new campaign.

[Christine]

Exactly.

[Em]

Obviously our experiences were nothing like that. And at least I still think I have a soul. John then shared some stories about when DND was up and coming, when he was growing up, and that this type of messaging was common. It led to us having a critical conversation on how facts can be misconstrued depending on who tells the narrative. Something that is super important to remember, especially with everything that is going on in the world today. That is all my story for now. I hope to write again soon. This and best wishes, Haley. So, I mean, it blows my mind every time I. I see some sort of overly religious material finding ways to make anything evil.

[Christine]

It's always about the children, which makes it so much more sinister. Like, let the children play with Pokemon cards and pogs and dungeons. Like it's the nerdiest game ever. It's. It's silly. Like, I just don't. I don't know. I don't know, Sarah, you probably have a wiser take, but I'm just.

[Em]

Especially about Dungeons and Dragons. I feel like that's a huge topic in gaming and being dark.

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, stranger things. And I feel again, like, you know, I have not. I played like, very little D and D in my life. It's just like, not my kind of thing. Not because of Satan, to be clear, but just, you know, we all have our different ways of finding a hobby. I really. I really. If people want to know, I think it's nice to just do a nice little craft and watch. I was gonna ask the Brady Bunch movie.

[Christine]

I was gonna ask what your actual. Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

So glad you said the Brady Bunch movie. One of my top 10.

[Christine]

Excellent.

[Sarah Marshall]

So I just. I. I've been having a real moment. Cause I'm very into the Movies that get. Whoever picks the free movies on YouTube is just doing a really good job.

[Christine]

I like that.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, good job, Bethany.

[Christine]

But meanwhile, I'm watching Investigation about Dale and just like, well, you know, I.

[Sarah Marshall]

Mean, there's a lot of good free stuff about Dale as well.

[Christine]

There's a lot. Yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

There's a lot of supply, but. So I had Adrian Dob from the Embed with the Right podcast on. On my show a while ago, talking about D and D panic specifically. And something he pointed out that I always remember is that the thing about sort of panic over D and D as part of the satanic panic was that it kind of left you no way to be a good kid. Because if you were, like, into metal or, like, kind of like you who liked to go to concerts and party, then, like, the devil is gonna get you that way through rock and roll lyrics. And if you were, like, a dorky kid who just wanted to, like, keep to themselves and do some fantasy role playing or, like, read, God forbid, some Lord of the Rings, then, like, that was also satanic. And I think it's very interesting that part of this was the idea that, like, teenagers were so stupid that they couldn't tell the difference between fantasy and reality. When, in fact, you look at these cases and you're like. Like, I think the adults are the ones who can't tell the dungeons. The kids were doing just fine.

[Christine]

Seriously. Then they're like, oh, a dungeon master. And you're like, please just read, like, one more sentence about this game. It's. It's not what you think it is.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, it involves having a lot of graph paper and just, like, it's really boring and long.

[Christine]

I mean, you know, I've had my time playing, but I'm always like. I just start being like, okay, I want to, like, do something more.

[Em]

It's just playing pretend is all it is.

[Christine]

It's fun, but, like.

[Em]

But it's like, how is that. How is that but evil?

[Sarah Marshall]

Like, doing it past the age when you're. It's socially appropriate, I guess, but we should all be doing it for our whole lives, you know? And also, I mean, the. Again, kind of getting back to our theme of projection. It's like, if I think that the devil is constantly trying to do battle with me through a pog, then, like, I'm much more enmeshed in a fantasy world than my child who has, like, you know, maybe three hours a week designated for.

[Christine]

And then it's like, I think about pogs probably a lot more than any Child does, which is already like, whoa, find a hobby.

[Sarah Marshall]

Seriously.

[Christine]

Go do a craft and watch the breaking movie.

[Sarah Marshall]

It feels like Satan that, like, I don't know. And I thought about this a lot. Kind of in, you know, in putting this show together is like, who is Satan? Like for Americans specifically or you know, for Canadians as well, because we looked at really the satanic panic across North America and I think that if you're in a settler colonialist society, then Satan was very useful kind of in the early days of North America, the United States and Canada being settled by white Europeans because you could accuse anyone who you wanted to massacre and whose land you wanted to take of being satanic specifically for not having been converted to Christianity. And so it feels like from the beginning the United States has sort of been very reliant on Satan as a character who allows you to take whatever you want from somebody who has your stuff. Right, right, yeah. And I like somebody who has their stuff that you would like to take from them and not worry about. Right, exactly. And I feel like it's just a.

[Christine]

Level of discomfort of like something other. Right. It's like, oh, if you like rock music, you're probably like a little bit on the outskirts. If you're playing like nerdy games, you're not the all American football star.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's like the fear of your kids liking something that you don't understand. And it's like.

[Christine]

And that's not like gonna, you know, be the, the all American, you know, well rounded, whatever stereotype.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, right, yeah. And then you think like, I wonder if there was like any kind of a satanic panic for like if you were a kid who just was fulfilling all expectations and just like, you know, football by day and I don't know, singing about Jesus by night.

[Em]

That's Satanic to Satan, actually.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, those are.

[Sarah Marshall]

That the Satanists are probably up and.

[Christine]

Arms about those kind of kids.

[Em]

Yeah, no, I, it feels like if, if the parents didn't understand it or you know, maybe it just started with all, you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll or something that if it wasn't going to church, if it wasn't being of Christ in some way, it must. If it's just, it's either black and white, it's either Christian or it's just.

[Christine]

The devil or it's anti.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, right. You know the old saying that idle hands are the devil's playground.

[Christine]

Oh yeah, there you go.

[Sarah Marshall]

People need time to let their, their thoughts wander a little bit. It's going to be fine. You Know.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

Idol hands kind of feels like drawing on graph paper.

[Sarah Marshall]

Like it's almost a signing. It's like saying like, you know how you feel uncomfortable when your children are like growing up and actualizing as people and getting into things that you didn't choose for them? Well, that discomfort is coming from Satan and they shouldn't do that and they should control them for their entire life. Do you feel uncomfortable? You are in the right.

[Christine]

Satan's after you. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

[Em]

Yeah. No, that's a. That's a great point. And I guess that does. It does still seep in today in our everyday lives. I mean, you know, we. It seems nearly everybody who works for us seems to, I think is queer. We're queer and we're very big queer podcast over here. And I, I think a lot of us are. You know, when we were coming out, it's. If it's not. I know I was worried about this. I grew up in Virginia that when I came out, if someone didn't understand it, it was just immediately unnatural and thus not of God. Like it was. It's very. It just must be satanic if I can't immediately unnatural quote unquote. So it really is just projection. You're totally right. Wow. Yeah.

[Christine]

That discomfort of.

[Em]

We have another story.

[Christine]

Yeah, I just wanted us to sit in the discomfort of morality panic. I know you were. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go next. Let's see. This one is called. Oh, good, perfect. Satanic Panic in Ohio. That is where. That's where I'm from. Okay. This is from Faith. She her. Hi all. My name is Faith and I've been listening for a few years now. Took me over a year to get caugh to listen to new episodes as they air. You asked for Satanic panic stories and I have a perfect example. I'm from southern Ohio, near the Hocking Hills. That is where I went on a trip with my friend in high school. And I don't know, nothing interesting happened. I'm like, what happened there? That I could say nothing.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's just beautiful area.

[Em]

A memory was.

[Christine]

However, it is very Trump Trumpy up there.

[Sarah Marshall]

Okay.

[Christine]

I'm from southern Ohio, near the Hocking Hills. Logan, which is the town at the center of the Hocking Hills region, is full of small town charm and wonder people. Back in the 1980s, in early October, an engaged couple went missing. A few weeks later, their dismembered remains were found in a cornfield. The murder remained unsolved for years and there was speculation of cult or Satanic involvement. It was scary enough for the town to change trick or treat to daylight hours. And they still have them in the daylight, usually the Sunday before Halloween. The woman's stepdad was tried and sentenced to death for the killings. He was then retried and found innocent and released. Eventually two men confessed to the crimes and the real culprits were brought to justice. There was no occult or satanic involvement of any kind. Just boiled down to terrible people being terrible. There's an episode of Buried in the Backyard about this case that sounds like an Investigation Discovery show. I don't know if it is, but it sounds like it.

[Em]

Yeah, totally.

[Christine]

About this case, as well as an episode of your worst nightmare. Now I can confirm that is an Investigation discovery show and it's a doozy. My mom grew up in Logan and remembers when this happened. There's lots of interesting lore and true crime in Southern Ohio. I'll have to suggest some haunted places for M to check out. Also, I was supposed to see you in Columbus, but got Covid womp. Love you guys so much. Okay, so this is more like a crime. A real crime occurred, which is obviously horrible. Then it got funneled into a satanic panic occult scare, and then they were like, so Halloween's over.

[Em]

Yeah. I wonder how many. Like, was just any crime in the 80s just connected to satanic panic? Or like, what. What did you have to do to commit a crime and not have satanic.

[Christine]

Panic attacks, like an unsolved crime? They would start looking that way. Is that true, Sarah? I don't know.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. What's funny is that I was actually just reading about this case a couple weeks ago and I hadn't heard of it before, but I was kind of reading. I was preparing for an American hysteria episode and kind of like ended up on this tangent about kind of specifically accusations of Satanism in Ohio. Because there was just kind of.

[Em]

Of.

[Sarah Marshall]

Partly because of it's. I mean, I don't. I don't know exactly why. And that was kind of part of what we talked about, that it was stickier in some places than in others. But yeah, kind of. There was like. There were rumors at the time that there were like a lot of witches in Toledo, specifically, for some reason.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I hope that that's still true, you know, but, yeah, I hope so.

[Christine]

I don't know.

[Em]

Toledo representative.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, right. Well. And what I remember about this case is that the. The stepfather of one of the victims was, I think, initially accused and convicted. Not really on any basis, except that he was you know, they were, I think, a relatively new family in town. They didn't. I think they didn't go to church. They were kind of like an unknown quantity for the people in the area. And I think that kind of in a. It sort of follows the same logic that if there's a crime that is just kind of too horrifying to sort of make sense of. And I mean, we do make sense of a lot of horrifying crimes, right? Like when we often aren't that shocked by, you know, by a husband killing a wife. Because we kind of have internalized that as part of the inevitable price of living in a patriarchy, I think. But if there's, you know, something that just sort of like that we can't fit into a narrative, even a scary narrative, then we will look to the outsider in town. And it feels like the Satanic panic was just kind of a bigger, badder version of that same story. And I think that. That I believe in this case that one of the defense theories on appeal was, no, actually, it could have. Maybe it was a cult. Did you ever think of that? So you gotta. Maybe this guy was convicted of occult crimes. And so that was a case of, I think, the Satanic panic actually being somewhat useful as an alternate theory in a case with a very dodgy conviction that was later overturned. And so I think it's just that we. I mean, in Portland now, like, I used to. I don't do it anymore because it was, you know, raising my blood pressure too much. But I used to look at, you know, nextdoor for kind of my neighborhood broadly. And it was just like a lot of people freaking out over something that raccoons had clearly done, you know, but being like some tweaker got into my backyard and threw my trash around like a raccoon would. And it's like, maybe it's like a raccoon.

[Christine]

You know, what's so weird is there's a photo of the guy and he looks just like a raccoon. He's even shaking.

[Sarah Marshall]

He's got those glowing eyes, you know, and cute little hands.

[Em]

And a tail.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, the tail. Holy shit.

[Em]

And he sleeps in a trash can.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, he's 18 inches high and he's.

[Christine]

Fearless, but be careful out there.

[Sarah Marshall]

But I, you know, have kind of seen, you know, this time of people having a lot of anxiety, partly because I think there's a lot of, you know, we've had a period in the past few years of a lot of propaganda about, like, you know, don't protect our Unhoused neighbors just fear them and dehumanize them. And. And then if you see something that probably was the work of critters, you have this sort of boogeyman figure to blame on it. So I think that also kind of in. I think the satanic panic kind of persisted maybe in some rural parts of America for longer, partly because there's a sense of being forgotten and unprotected by government and this feeling of if something bad happens that we can't explain, then if we're not going to be protected, then we're going to maybe be more likely to entertain the worst possible fears. And I think that. And also if you're being told by authority that, you know, satanic cults are out there and that they are very active, then it's not your fault that you're believing someone who tells you to believe them, you know?

[Em]

Yeah. Well, do you. This might be more of a paranormal question, but do you think that there was ever a layer of just like. Like being in denial that someone, you know, might have committed something and just wanting to blame it on the devil making them do it or anything like that? Like, I know there's.

[Christine]

That definitely happened in true crime cases, too, where people will say, like, oh, he. I swear he was possessed. He would never do this. And I mean, this is just my own.

[Em]

There's also. There's also the case that. That we covered the. It's literally called the devil made me do it. But I didn't know if that was. If that played into, like, a broader, like, anytime there was crime just to try to, you know, justify someone's actions.

[Christine]

Like sort of dehumanize someone to be like, oh, that's the only way this could have happened? Sort of. Yeah.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

Well, there was. Yeah, there was a case, I think, kind of also in southern Ohio, I believe, in the 80s, where basically a woman was dismembered and her legs were found separate from the rest of her body, basically. And so that's the kind of detail that just like, really freaks you out and that people, you know, immediately started theorizing. Well, I mean, of course, it was a satanic cult that would do that because they would dismember people. And so it just makes sense. And what turns out to have been the case is that the man who apparently killed her did that because he couldn't fit her body in the trunk, and so he had to cut off part of her body in order to make it fit.

[Em]

So it's just practicality, not the devil.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I think that's scarier, right? Like, that is scarier because, like, if I'm. If my body is going to be dismembered, then it's like, in a way less scary for me personally to think, okay, well, it's this cult, and they're doing it for Satan, and it's part of this tool that they do. And it's like the height of premeditated evil, as opposed to somebody just killing you for no good reason and then for surely practical reasons, cutting your body up to fit in the trunk of the car. You know, like, if something awful is going to happen to me, it should at least be, you know, for. Because of the Prince of Darkness.

[Christine]

Right.

[Sarah Marshall]

For the gun. Not because of some guy who is, you know, literally or metaphorically named Dale.

[Christine]

Exactly. I was about to say it. You just took the words off Dale.

[Em]

I mean, that makes sense. I. I guess if. If I knew that happened to somebody, I would almost hope that evil did it. Because if a human does it, then I have to reconcile with it.

[Sarah Marshall]

You hear?

[Christine]

It's like. They're like. Right, exactly.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's so that so often, you know, so many horrifying crimes are committed by some guy. And you're like, why? And he's like, I don't know. I lost my temper. And you're like, that's Christ. Like, that's.

[Christine]

That's Satan. He's Satan. He's. Yeah, it's just scary. It's just really freaky.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. I think Satan is doing a lot of heavy lifting to distract us all from how scary guys are. And I think that, you know, he gave it a piece of the devil to give us something more fun to think about. But he can take a break now. We gotta deal with this.

[Christine]

Oh, I'm so happy.

[Em]

Great points all around. Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, beautiful.

[Christine]

Beautiful.

[Em]

Would you like to read the next one? Number five, Sarah.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

Cool.

[Sarah Marshall]

Let me just pull this up here. These are great, by the way. Yeah. Like, we love a few days ago.

[Christine]

And we got. I mean, we have so many. Even put some extras in here in case any. You know, we needed any extras. But, like, maybe. Maybe we can read those someday for like a. Yeah. Patreon or like a. Yeah. Listener Obsess.

[Sarah Marshall]

Have me back, please.

[Em]

Of course.

[Christine]

Or, yeah, you come back on and read them, because I need your input after this. We're going to have to be calling you every time we get a satanic panic story. I would love.

[Sarah Marshall]

Look, just put a little Satan symbol into the clouds. I'll see it.

[Christine]

Creepy little monster Emoji. Oops. Great.

[Sarah Marshall]

All right, I'll start. Hi, I'm Christine and Eva. My name is Sandy. She, her and I have been a listener since the beginning. I saw your Instagram post asking for stories relating to the Satan Satanic Panic. I don't know why, but I was surprised that I had a story to share. During high school 2010-2014, I lived in a small town in Saskatchewan, Canada, called Martinsville. It was a quiet and small community. It has grown a lot since, but it holds a dark history. In 1992, a Martinsville mom began accusing a local woman who ran a daycare of sexually abusing her child. The police began investigating, and as they did, the accusations grew and grew until suddenly more than a dozen people, five of which were police, were accused of abusing Martinsville children. These folks were charged with over 100 charges connected with running a satanic cult called the Brotherhood of the Ram, where they allegedly practiced ritualized sexual assault of children. It should come as no surprise that these allegations were false. The interviews with the children are found to have been mismanaged, and the hysteria was found to be connected to the hysteria happening in the US because of the Satanic Panic. Not all was great in the end, however, as the son of the daycare owner was found guilty of molestation. However. However, there was no evidence of sexual abuse to the scale that the locals were claiming. One of the police officers charged. One of the police officers charged was John Popowick. He was a police officer from Saskatoon, a city about 30 minutes away from Martinsville, who had taken an interest in the case because he was so interested, and he ended up being accused and charged. However, when the children couldn't pick him up in a lineup, the charges were dropped. In 2002, the government apologized and paid him a 1.3 million settlements settlement. I'll attack some links, including a CBC article about one of the police officers who was accused and charged. There have also been some tiktokers and podcasts who have covered the story. The story is one that most, if not all, people in Martinsville know. I remember as a teenager, this was a common story told among friends. My friends, anyway. And having lived there, it's hard to believe that something that crazy happened in such a quiet town. Anyway, thank you for reading. I love the show.

[Em]

Who.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Em]

That's intense.

[Christine]

Wow.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. Yeah. What do you. What do you two think?

[Em]

Well, my first question. Well, I don't. And not really a question to anybody, but just my first thought is, I wonder how many times there were There was a, a cry for satanic panic because there was some major crime like this. And how many times satanic panic was actually, how, how like were their rituals actually involved? Was there, quote, Satanism involved?

[Christine]

Or like, is that ever, is that.

[Em]

Ever, is it actually 0% of the time?

[Christine]

Or did anybody ever hear about it and go, actually I would like to participate in that?

[Sarah Marshall]

No, yeah, it, it's zero percent. Right. And you could make the argument that, you know, wow, maybe somebody gets hit it really well and we don't know and, and sure, wow. But it's zero percent because the case I was just talking about with the severed legs, that was a case of a guy who, according to the prosecution, and again, you have to take prosecutor theories with a grain of salt a lot of the time because they want to maintain a winning streak. Quite frequently it would be embarrassing to lose something. And sometimes you're trying a case with kind of shoddy evidence and you just keep going. But, you know, that was the perpetrator in that case, at least according to the state, had some amount of interest in Satanism. He had some black candles which were something that could be owned perfectly innocently. But let's just say, yeah, okay, so what if he was a Satanist? What if he killed someone for his own idea of a satanic ritual? What if that was true? He was still acting alone, he was still committing murder for the same reason that people commit murder, which is not because he was in the grips of a larger supernatural power, not as part of some kind of a large scale ritual, but for his own individual.

[Christine]

Because he wanted to. For whatever form.

[Sarah Marshall]

Because he wanted to. Because. For whatever. Exactly. Because for whatever reason he felt like. Like it.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

Even if you fell in terms of sexual abuse, you know, like none of these daycare cases yielded evidence of satanic abuse. And what was tricky is that sometimes there would be a daycare where, you know, as in this case, there was evidence of some kind of, you know, kind of general like normal, everyday, non satanic sexual abuse happening or children being abused because, you know, kids are very vulnerable and these things do happen. But the idea that Satan needed to be involved I think was weirdly kind of a comfort to people. Right. Because it implies that if people aren't worshiping Satan on a large scale, then they're not going to think to abuse your child. And yeah, it's sort of like this.

[Christine]

Wouldn'T happen or this wouldn't happen in my exact. Exactly.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah. I also think that like there's like our thinking on abuse has really grown a lot in the past few decades. And I think that something we're at least trying to recognize or that there's a lot more opportunity for people to see is that your parents may have generally meant well and yet still behaved abusively at times. Your parents may have been pillars of the community who weren't secretly Satanists, and they still might have been very abusive. They still might have been very cruel to you and been able to put on a good front for other people. And Satan didn't have to be involved in any of that. You know, it's just human nature and.

[Christine]

That abuse is just no Satan needed.

[Sarah Marshall]

And then also that people who aren't pure evil commit abuse. You know, that abuse is really about. We don't need any supernatural elements. It's. It's an aspect of human relationships that you can't blame on an exterior force. It's something that we all have to work on kind of continually. And it's not something we're going to eradicate that easily. I feel like that kind of goes.

[Em]

To the denial of, you know, not wanting to believe that your parents or someone, you know, or just human beings in general could possess the ability to do dark things. Right. Just being able to blame it on something else.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I think that this is something that's really kind of pissing off conservatives, as is everything, I guess, lately. But it feels very new, this idea that, like, you shouldn't act actually be mean to your children. Yeah, yeah, that's bad for them, right? Character. Yeah. Like in the 80s we did kind of advocate like, yeah, you should be mean to your kids. Don't be too nice to them.

[Christine]

Yeah, what the heck? You want them to throw a fit in the grocery store? I don't think so. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah, that's a great point.

[Em]

Okay, we have. I have another one which is long, so bear with me, everybody. But I got a feeling if Eva put it in, it's probably going to be great. So this is called Satanic Panic at the Truck Stop, which are great. Great title.

[Christine]

I'm already sucking Great name.

[Em]

Hello. And that's why we drink, fans. My name is Mel.

[Christine]

But I like that you said fans. That's way more fun.

[Em]

Oh God, did I Freudian slip. I hate that.

[Christine]

Hello, fans.

[Sarah Marshall]

Hey, fans. Hey.

[Em]

Hello. And that's why we drink, friends. So sorry, everybody. My name is Mel. They them. M. And I'm from Chicago and a musician for a living. Wow, Good for you. I'm currently 33 and have been touring a Metal band since I turned 18.

[Christine]

Oh, we get the metal music.

[Sarah Marshall]

This is gonna be good.

[Em]

This is gonna be good. You can imagine I've had my fair share of old bitties. Assuming I'm Satan incarnate.

[Christine]

Is that a song lyric? That should be a song.

[Em]

Being heavily tattooed and pierced and touring around with a van, RV or bus full of equally tattooed, long haired, big bearded rejects for the last 15 years tends to bring on that stereotype. And by the way, I think I would feel the safest in my life hanging out with those.

[Christine]

Yeah, right in that van. Yeah.

[Em]

We had two very different experiences in the same truck stop in the middle of small town Hillbilly Rest up meets Wrong Turn meets Deliverance. Scary Kentucky. All that combined. Kentucky.

[Christine]

I got to tell you, sir, I live in Kentucky. So I'm feeling. And I. Oh, no. Oh, is she gone?

[Sarah Marshall]

I don't know.

[Christine]

Is she gone on your end is what I mean.

[Em]

She's gone on my end.

[Christine]

Oh, okay.

[Sarah Marshall]

I was like, her hot spot might have gone out.

[Christine]

I. This is where. This is where I tried to interject earlier. I. Sarah, I don't know if you know this about me, but I do live in Kentucky, so this all feels a bit targeted. And I'm from Ohio, Southern Ohio, so I'm like, am I.

[Sarah Marshall]

You're right in the thick of things.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'm in the epicenter, I guess. Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

You know, she's got to support your local witches.

[Em]

She grew up in a graveyard too, so in my mind, like, she was just meant to be. What is a Satan incarnate?

[Christine]

I was gonna say. Thank God I wasn't born in the 80s. I probably would have been in her 70s. I would have been in big trouble.

[Em]

You would have had a lot of fun, though. You would have just been in trouble all the time. Probably.

[Christine]

It's just been sad. And playing Dungeons and Dragons by myself.

[Em]

Apparently, as I was getting out of our bus that was stopped at a fuel pump to go into use. Oh, to go in. To use the restroom and purchase whatever gas station filth I could fill my empty stomach with, a man approached our bus and met our drummer at the door and asked if we were a band and if he could check out our bus. No, that's a firm pass.

[Christine]

Immediate no.

[Em]

For some stupid reason, our drummer agreed. After the small town drummer behavior.

[Christine]

Classic drummer. You don't leave the drummer in charge of who gets in and off the bus, please.

[Em]

You know, I know like one drummer and this is exactly their behavior, so. Exactly. I'm gonna go off all Experience after that. Small town man that had never been outside the city limits, marveled at the amenities of our bus that might as well have been a high tech spaceship to him. He pulled out two giant gallon freezer bags full of weed and gifted it to us as he wished us well on our travels. And he said, quote, he would be praying for a safe return for any normal person. They might have been completely freaked out, but for four wannabe rockstar band members, two crew people and a merch girl, two freezer bags full of free drugs made us ignore the strangeness of the encounter.

[Christine]

Yeah, that is. Now that is how Satan's gonna get in there. He's gonna say free weed. Literally.

[Sarah Marshall]

He's like, it's a freezer bag. Especially because those are more durable, the freezer bag.

[Christine]

Like that. Those are expensive.

[Em]

This is. You're totally right. This is how the devil would trickle in.

[Christine]

And, and it's gonna work.

[Em]

Not even trickle and kick the door.

[Sarah Marshall]

Down because under all the weed was a pog.

[Christine]

It made the drummer let it on the bus.

[Em]

Yeah, well, the satanic panic doesn't begin until I finished peeing in the bathroom. I got out to wash my hands and a woman looks at my heavily tattooed body, stretched ears and pierced up face and she looked like she'd seen the devil. I took my time washing my hands, pulled my wallet out to count some money for the snacks I'd already purchased in my mind and continue to dole before I had to be stuffed on the bus en route to Florida for the foreseeable future. Future. The woman then exits her stall, which she'd been mumbling in which I later realized she was praying. I was wearing a shirt from one of my favorite death metal bands, Vital Remains. Love that. Which had the world's old school death or had the words old school death metal on it in giant letters. This old holier than thou. Oh my gosh. Started the conversation by saying, I noticed your shirt mentions death and would like to let you know that death is not the answer. Death comes when God intends and it's important to know where you're going.

[Sarah Marshall]

I responded based on that, death is the answer.

[Christine]

But yeah, sorry, that's literally. What are you talking about?

[Em]

Death is certainly the guarantee of it all.

[Christine]

Death is literally the only thing we all have in common. Okay, that's the.

[Sarah Marshall]

Also, nobody loves death more than Christians who are like just see it as their five year plan.

[Em]

Yeah, 100%. I responded by telling her that I thought I would come back here to this very truck stop when I die because they had the freshest hot dogs and cleanest bathroom of any of the truck stops I've ever.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's how you disengage.

[Christine]

That's how you de escalate. Okay, you go, well, you. These hot dogs are the best. I'll come here. This is my heaven.

[Em]

Well, then the Jesus junkie asked if she could pray over me, to which I agreed.

[Christine]

What?

[Sarah Marshall]

Wow.

[Em]

I don't know what I would do either. I'd be like, just don't hurt me.

[Christine]

No. I'd be like, no.

[Sarah Marshall]

I know it's hard to say no to it is. I mean, I'm.

[Christine]

I talk big game, but, like, in the moment. Yeah. The panic.

[Em]

I mean, it's so, so jarring. I'm like, what other jarring thing could you do next? If I say no to you? I know what a normal prayer is. As I grew up very strict Southern Baptist for the first 18 years of my life and have been prayed over many times.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, so you're like, this is old news to me. Whatever. Okay, get in here.

[Em]

The water's come on.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

This was not a normal prayer, though. This woman proceeded to do what I would explain as a Don't do this at home. Learned self. Learned exorcism.

[Sarah Marshall]

No.

[Christine]

Oh.

[Em]

I let her go on for about three minutes before my stomach really started to rumble for one of those jalapeno tor tornado roller grill abominations. So I had to interrupt. I had Father face is what we're calling her now and let her know.

[Christine]

Really good lyrics. I feel like we got to keep these in the. In the line.

[Em]

Clearly someone in heavy metal who is ex Southern Baptist is like, yeah, it does fit.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Em]

It feels like the name Jesus Junkie should be said as a. Like a screamo kind of song.

[Christine]

That's got to be on the shirt too. Like Jesus Junkie and then the death. Yeah, yeah.

[Em]

She reached in her bag and handed me a Bible and told me Jesus is the only answer. I told her I'd keep that in mind the next time I was invited on who Wants to Be a Millionaire.

[Sarah Marshall]

Quick, quick with it.

[Em]

I walked back to our bus with my new Bible, realizing that woman truly thought I was evil. When I was just on my bus smoking free gas station weed, reading YA vampire romance novels, listening to podcasts, and forcing drunk band members to play Battleship with me at 4am a.m. i am far from pretty evil.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Em]

I am far from satanic, but not according to this woman. That night, we all signed the COVID of The Bible and added our own artwork to the COVID and sold it at our merch table for 50 bucks.

[Sarah Marshall]

Fantastic.

[Em]

It sold out within 20 minutes of the doors being open after our merch girl started telling people the story. So the moral of this story is, don't judge a book by its cover. Just say no to bathroom exorcisms and mind your own business. If you see someone who doesn't align with your beliefs or, like, lifestyle.

[Sarah Marshall]

Holy.

[Christine]

Holy.

[Em]

Wow.

[Christine]

Mel. What in the world. Yeah.

[Em]

Being, you know, what feels. I'm sure in their mind it is with the best intentions. However, nothing feels more evil to me than someone thinking they have to pray over me. I'm like, I cannot be the scariest thing you've ever seen.

[Christine]

It's such a slight. It's like, excuse me, like, find someone else to pray over. Well, why is it a compliment? Is it like, I'm so badass that I'm scaring these, you know.

[Em]

Yeah. But in a world of satanic panic, fair, it's like, I. I can't possibly. There has to be something more evil in your mind. Like, if I'm it, then, like, first you have. You haven't seen much of the world. But also, like, I don't know. I think it's. It's so jarring to me. Again, I grew up in Virginia, where that was, like, weirdly normal for people to just kind of corner you and be like, oh, I'm going to pray for you. And now I will be. I don't know, the one that cures you or, you know, is, you know, it's just. It's just such a weird feeling. And I. I wonder when that became normal, the just approaching people and saying things to their face like that. Especially satanic panic. I. And tell me if I'm wrong, but I imagine the 70s is when it kind of began. The end of the 70s. Well, I know they say 80s 90s, but I feel like the sex, drugs, rock and roll thing is kind of totally launched it.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

And also guessing kind of like the rise of kind of, I don't know, technology, assisted evangelism, I guess, where we had the beginning of televangelism and sort of this kind of like, newly developing branch of Christianity that needed something to do. And I always bring up Hal Lindsey's Satan is alive and well on planet Earth, which came out in the 70s and is about, like, you know, when your kids are doing macrame and learning about astrology, that's actually part of Satan's plan to get them used to Supernatural type stuff.

[Christine]

They're waving his blanket right there.

[Em]

I mean, it's. And also, I know they say that satanic panic is the 80s and 90s, but like, weren't the parents of the kids from the 80s and 90s kind of doing like the Woodstock thing and all that? Like, don't. Weren't they. It feels a little hypocritical that all.

[Sarah Marshall]

Of a sudden, you know, from the mainstream that felt threatened by that and that this was kind of the tide that. Because I think what we're living through now is really backlash to the, that have been made in women's rights. And also I think I talk about the satanic panic being a backlash to women's lib, but I think it was just as much a backlash to gay liberation and this thing that we saw in the early 80s and with the failure of the passage of the era around that time too. And then it feels like it mirrors what we're living through now where if marginalized groups make really minuscule gains in terms of civil rights, that gains gives, you know, the necessarily freaked out middle an excuse to panic.

[Christine]

It like emboldens people and they feel like, oh, well, I have the right because. Yeah, because society is on my side and that's Satan. Right, right, right.

[Sarah Marshall]

And I feel like it's, it's, I think it scares people to just sort of, you know, see somebody enjoying what they think that they aren't allowed to enjoy. Right. And if somebody's like going around on a bus, getting to see different parts of America, like getting cool tattoos and, and like singing badass sounding songs and having a band and like getting spooked and weed from random guys. Yeah. Reading Vampire Romance, like, these are all fun things that, you know. If you feel that you're inhabiting a branch of religion that doesn't allow you to enjoy life that way, then you have to, you know, brand that as evil, I guess. I have never been prayed over yet and I, I, I hope I get to avoid it. I do not know how I would respond.

[Em]

I mean, it's odd when it happens. You just kind of stand there and then when they're done, it's like, I think they think you're going to like transform in front of them into like Jesus himself and I.

[Christine]

They're waiting for you to like, float.

[Sarah Marshall]

It's like a stranger asking you if they can like Q tip your ears, you know, we don't know each other.

[Christine]

This is my aura. Get the fuck out of here.

[Em]

I think if it, you know, I don't know what other feelings I'm supposed to be experiencing from it, but I. I never grew up Christian. I was just surrounded by a lot of Christians who weren't afraid to kind of be all up in my face. And I. I. It was just more of, like, an awkward silence. It's like when people are, like, singing Happy Birthday at a restaurant to you, and you're just kind of, like, waiting.

[Christine]

You're, like, waiting for it to end. Yeah.

[Em]

And then when it does end, you're like, thank you. I don't know.

[Sarah Marshall]

Like, what.

[Christine]

What do I say? How do I exit? Yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

That's kind of how it always felt.

[Em]

I was like, do you think that this. This was gonna fix me Instantaneous? I don't know. They. All right. It was always odd.

[Sarah Marshall]

What do you want? She just do a little twirl and be like.

[Christine]

I feel like if that happens again, I can twirl again. Like, if you should really, like, jump and be like, I haven't been able to jump in 30. You know, like, do something dramatic and be like. Make them think that they're like, you.

[Em]

Know, one, that's hilarious. But two, I feel like that. Is that not how a lot of the exorcism stories I've covered happened, where it's like, you feel compelled to react to people praying over you?

[Sarah Marshall]

Right.

[Em]

I mean, when I say it's, you know, always. It's only happened, I think, twice in my life, but it was still two times too many.

[Christine]

Too many times.

[Em]

Pardon me. Yes. No, but it's. It's so weird to. To just like. Yeah. Be threatened by the way that somebody lives, and it just happens to be categorically different than what you were taught means success. Like, it's just, oh, well, she smokes, you know, or. What were their pronouns? I think they were, they, them. They smoke weed, and they're just going to bed late, and they're just hanging out, and for some reason, that's ungodly simply because it's not what you do. It's just.

[Christine]

But I think it's. Yeah, I think. I think Sarah made the good point, too, of, like, it's a. It's like a. A reactive thing to. I don't get that. I don't get to do the fun. I have to restrict myself. So why do you get to run around looking like that? And. Yeah, why do you get to be happy looking like that? Playing, you know, playing Battleship, whatever.

[Em]

The jealousy. And it's also, like, it doesn't have to be jealousy. You could get on the Bus. Babe, you can hang out with us. It's fine.

[Sarah Marshall]

I don't know.

[Christine]

I think it's bigger than that, though. I think it's like the structure of it. But.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like a side note, but I like, recently rewatched Saved. Do you remember that movie, the Jenna Martin movie from like 20 years ago? And it was so kind of like, I don't know, Sundance kind of satire of the Christian right at the time. And it's about like, what if you were so devoutly Christian that you decided to have sex with your gay boyfriend to teach him to not be gay? And then of course, that doesn't work and he's sent to conversion camp and you are secretly pregnant and your best friend saved Mandy Moore.

[Christine]

Em's like pausing the Brady Bunch movie.

[Sarah Marshall]

And being like, yeah, it's a. It's great. It's a really a lovely movie. And something that struck me revisiting it is that it tells a story of like, Christian teenagers who kind of. Who go against what they're taught to do, but for good reasons and kind of at the end of the day, come around to this idea of like, I think the line that Jenna Malone has has is if God wanted us, wanted us all to be alike, then why did he make us so different? You know, in this idea that we're living, especially in this moment where it feels like religion is being. And Christianity specifically is being co opted by people who aren't really acting very Christian, it's kind of turned into a wealth accumulation culture, 100%. And I feel like it's. I also guess, like, I don't know, I want to take this little moment with. With you here to say that I don't think that that's fair. And I think that if, I don't know, if anyone who's listening feels alienated from their faith by the bad behavior of people who seek to represent it, then they don't. They don't get to do that, you know?

[Christine]

Beautiful. Beautiful.

[Em]

There is one quick one left if you wanted to read it.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Christine]

Oh, okay, here I go. Oh, oh, I'm not.

[Em]

It's just your turn.

[Christine]

That's the only reason Ohio anymore. I'm in Alabama. Okay, this should be interesting. Satanic panic in Alabama. So this is from Beth. Hello to all the. And that's why we drink. Crew, family pets and inanimate objects. I'm excited to share my Satanic panic story with you. It's 1988. Picture this. It's 1988. And my rebellious older cousin Susan is. Susan. My rebellious older cousin Susan is living with our grand in rural Alabama. They lived on 10 wooded acres that backed up to a national forest. It is 20 miles to the nearest grocery store. That kind of rural area. Our grandparents are gone for the weekend and Susan decides to have a couple friends over after sunset. They're all sitting on the back deck smoking something when out of a freezer gallon bag. By the way, I'm sorry, I meant to mention this earlier. I really thought that guy was going to be the problem, right?

[Sarah Marshall]

He's going to go. I'm glad that all worked out.

[Christine]

What a red herring.

[Em]

That's also the moral of the story, isn't it though? That like the scary one is. Is actually like the homie and like the one should be the. The quote, good person. And the story is like actually the scariest.

[Christine]

Exactly. And it's like at first it's like, well, of course don't let Dale. Who said Glenn Dale on the bus. And it's like, no, this Dale just wants to look at your.

[Sarah Marshall]

Dale's got free weed sometimes.

[Christine]

Dale's like my stepdad who just. Well, not with the free weed, but like just wants to check out the engine or whatever the is going on in this bus. Yeah, okay. Sorry. Side note. Let's see. So they're smoking something when they hear it. When they hear it. Chanting. And it's coming from the wooded area behind the house. They wait a few minutes and the chanting isn't going away. It's getting louder. They step into the house and lock the door. They can still hear it even from inside the house. Devil worshippers. They whisper to each other. They debate on calling the police. Weigh whether or not they're sober enough to do so. Right. Because then you gotta. Yeah, yeah. The smell. Etc.

[Em]

Nothing to see here, officer. Nothing to see.

[Christine]

Don't look in my freezer. Okay. Weigh whether or not they're sober enough to do so. Outside, the chanting continues. There are three teenage girls alone in the middle of nowhere, Alabama. So they decide to call the police. Miraculously, the cops show up. Quickly. Susan and her friends meet the cops out front and take them back while the chanting is still going on. Oh my God. There's like a siren in the background. That's from me, but I love it. It sounds like a sound effect. Now em start chanting.

[Em]

Yeah.

[Christine]

They all stand in silence, listening. The officer asks if this is what Susan has been hearing and she confirms it. The officer nods, pauses and laughs a bit before saying, that's Frogs. That's frogs. You're hearing bullfrogs down at the creek. Thanks. Satanic panic. It was not in fact devil worshipers. It was frogs. The frogs on pods.

[Sarah Marshall]

And can I just say, I find frogs pretty scary. I think they are little, they're cute. But a big frog, like do not ever come near me with a big.

[Em]

Frog or any frog to me. I don't need a single one of them. Thank you.

[Sarah Marshall]

So many people are confused by that stance. But I really right. They're just not jump. Their back legs are too strong. If they're a little bit big, they could overpower us.

[Em]

You know, they're real, are like a mile long. They barely blink. I don't like that they. I don't know where they're looking all the time, apparently.

[Sarah Marshall]

Are they on the land?

[Christine]

Are they fish?

[Sarah Marshall]

No.

[Em]

Yeah, they can breathe anywhere. There's no safe spot.

[Christine]

They have eggs.

[Sarah Marshall]

You'll never escape the frog God. That's a good story.

[Christine]

Yeah. That's amazing. I love when Eva ends it on like a punchy little, little joke.

[Sarah Marshall]

You know what? I feel like so many of these stories depend on what kind of a random cop that you get. Because true, you had gotten a different guy who was like, I don't know what frogs sound like. And I'm willing to make an investigation out of this. Let's get into it. Let's do search. Let's get an earth mover out here. Or he just got a. A Dale with a good head on his shoulders.

[Em]

Or could be another cop who also whispers devil worshippers and then all of you are scared, you know.

[Sarah Marshall]

Exactly.

[Em]

Wow. Okay. Well, that was a great one to end on.

[Sarah Marshall]

That was perfect.

[Em]

Thank you so much for coming on on and you know, joining our listeners.

[Christine]

Humoring us and adding actual like factual information and yeah.

[Sarah Marshall]

So fun, real high takes. I love your listeners and like, I don't know, let's like have a moment of appreciation for all the random Alabamians who said it's frogs.

[Christine]

Yeah, I love that the cop laughed a little bit too. Like, that's gotta feel good. Like, oh, I'm getting called out these teenagers. And it's like, ah, it was all just a good laugh. Now let's go.

[Sarah Marshall]

I don't know, don't you think based on the. The time that he had a little mustache.

[Em]

Oh, for sure.

[Christine]

You gotta believe he had the mustache. For sure, for sure. Oh, man, I love it. Well, thank you, Sarah. I really appreciate it. Do you mind pitching your show one more time so everyone can go Check it out.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, please check it out. We don't have any frogs in it, which is maybe a plus or a minus one of, you know. So it's called the Devil you know. It's out from CBC Podcasts. We're to going to have all the episodes out in the next couple weeks. Or you can. You can listen to them all, or you can listen to them very slowly. We have bonus episodes. You can listen however you want. It's wherever you get your podcasts. And you can also listen to my show. You're wrong about where we've talked about. About the satanic panic quite a bit over the years as well, but never a good frog story like this one. This was a first.

[Christine]

Did you know I saw you live, Sarah. I saw you live. I saw you're wrong about live. And I was read. I was with Lisa Lampanelli. We went and saw your show.

[Sarah Marshall]

I remember that show. Was that in Philly?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Sarah Marshall]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Christine]

It was so fun. It was so fun. So anyway, yeah, I. I encourage everyone to go check it out. It's a great show, it's a great podcast, and it's a great live and, you know, all of the things.

[Sarah Marshall]

We got to do those again. Well, it's.

[Christine]

It's an honor.

[Sarah Marshall]

Thank you so much for having me. And let's listen to more frog sometime soon.

[Christine]

Yeah, let's not. Let's listen to some satanic chanting. Okay, I'll just leave it there.

[Em]

I feel safer there.

[Sarah Marshall]

Yeah, let's go tramping around in the forest. We'll find something good.

[Christine]

Beautiful. Yeah, come to Kentucky. We got lots of it. Yeah.

[Em]

All right. And happy December and happy 2026, everybody, because next time you hear a listeners episode from us, it'll be next year. Happy early New Year.

[Christine]

Sounds good.

[Sarah Marshall]

Bye.

[Em]

Bye.

[Sarah Marshall]

Experience the sequel everyone's been waiting for.

[Christine]

Follow Drayton and Dallas as they navigate the challenges of college life while trying to stay true to both themselves and each other. Sideline two Intercepted, starring Noah Beck and Sienna Agudong, is streaming now for free only on Tubi.