Flagrant with Andrew Schulz & Akaash Singh

Episode: Oxford Atheist: “Jesus Christ Never Claimed He Was God” (Feat. Alex O'Connor)

Date: August 25, 2025

Overview

This episode dives into the historical and theological claims about Jesus Christ's divinity, led by atheist philosopher and New Testament enthusiast Alex O’Connor (Cosmic Skeptic). The crew explores the earliest sources on Jesus, differences in gospel narratives, the role of John the Baptist, Mormonism, religious mythmaking, worship semantics, and the evolution of Christology—all with Flagrant’s trademark comedic irreverence. The central debate: Did Jesus himself ever claim to be God?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Societal Utility of Religion

[00:25–03:00]

• Alex O’Connor shares anecdotes illustrating both harmful and beneficial aspects of faith.
  • Story of a sociopath who found a moral framework in Christianity after a violent act.
  • Reminisces about meeting an elderly churchgoer, recognizing the comfort faith provides.
• Alex: “I don’t want her to become an atheist… I just think it would be soul-crushing… So how do I grapple with that? By being violently agnostic.” (02:33)

Agnosticism & Honest Intellectual Exchange

• Alex asserts he feels no duty to “deconvert” others, highlighting the humility and utility of agnosticism.
  • Alex: “I will die on this fence. I will say, I think that’s bullshit... but I can’t say the conclusion is true or false.” (03:06)

How the New Testament Was Written

[04:35–08:30]

• Explanation of the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)—their authorship order, dates, and relationships.
  • Mark: earliest, ~70 AD.
  • Matthew/Luke: draw heavily from Mark, add new material.
  • John: latest, unique style and content.
• Bible = “library” of books; gospel stories sometimes corroborate but often differ.

Alex on Synoptic Gospels:

• “Mark’s gospel is the shortest...most people think it came first. Around 95% of Mark is in Matthew and Luke... Matthew and Luke add extra stuff.” (06:32)

John the Baptist: The Overlooked Messiah?

[07:53–13:20]

• All gospels describe Jesus’s baptism by John; the “criterion of embarrassment” suggests this happened historically.
  • “If you’re trying to present [Jesus] as the Son of God...it makes little sense for him to be baptized by another preacher. That’s why they wouldn’t make it up.” (08:01)
• John was a massively influential Jewish preacher performing mass baptisms "for forgiveness of sins."
• Some gospels emphasize John the Baptist is not the Messiah—indicating rival claims existed.

Was Jesus a Disciple of John?

• Alex argues the historical Jesus likely started as a follower of John, later inheriting—and transforming—John’s movement (“baton passing”).
  • Jesus refers to John as "the greatest man ever born of a woman." (12:02)
• Parallels between Jesus receiving the Spirit at baptism and later bestowing it upon his disciples.

Memorable moment:

• Host (re: John’s popularity): “Is there a historical account? Hundreds? Thousands?”
  • Alex: “The Gospels say all Judea was coming… that’s obviously an exaggeration, but lots and lots of people.” (17:41)

Weird Mormon Parallels

• Conversation detours to Mormon history (golden plates, persecutions, Joseph Smith’s assassination).
  • Alex observes that Mormon growth rates rivaled early Christianity and both were subject to serious persecution.

Did Jesus Actually Claim to Be God?

[35:46–50:23]

The Scriptural Argument

• Alex: “There’s no instance in the Gospels where I think Jesus is claiming to be God. Christians think they have examples, but all of them don’t actually apply.” (35:47)

Key Passages Discussed:

• John 10: “I and the Father are one.” (explained as spiritual unity, not ontological identity; extended to believers)
  • “If that’s [Jesus] claiming to be identical to Yahweh… he must think that’s something available to the disciples. That doesn’t make sense.” (37:17)
• John 8: “Before Abraham was, I am.”
  • Possible wordplay: in Greek (“ego eimi”), can mean simply “It’s me”; only in John.
  • Alex speculates Jesus is referencing "God's redemptive plan" rather than claiming divine identity.
  • “I think what he might be getting at… is that from the very beginning, God knew... before Abraham was, I am.” (43:18)
• Blasphemy Accusation:
  • Specifically addresses a passage where Jesus is accused of claiming to be God. Jesus quotes Psalm 82 (“you are gods, sons of the Most High”), deflecting outright divinity.
  • “One point where Jesus is explicitly accused of claiming to be God, he didn’t stand [by it]. In my view, he goes, ‘I’m not.’” (49:33)

Worship and Ancient Semantics

[50:39–59:52]

• Discussion of the words proskuneo (“to bow down” / show respect) vs latreuo (“cultic/religious worship”).
  • Only proskuneo is used for Jesus in the gospels, not latreuo—which is reserved for God.
  • “Not once does latreuo worship occur being given to Jesus in the gospels. So we’re just left with proskuneo worship.” (51:21)

Memorable Quote:

• Alex: “If proskuneo worship is the kind of worship that’s given to God and only God, then why is it that after Jesus ascends, nobody offers proskuneo worship anymore?” (59:41)

Comparing with Islam and Other Views

• Alex notes his interpretation is closer to the Muslim view of Jesus: not God, not divine, but a major prophet.
• “Muslims ... don't believe he claimed to be God ... and they take a lot of the same lines I do here." (62:41)

The Transmission Problem: Oral to Written

[67:03–68:53]

• Jesus spoke Aramaic; Gospels are written in Greek, quoting Hebrew ideas.

• Heavy discussion about how precisely Jesus’s words could've been transmitted, remembered, translated, and altered—sometimes decades after the events.

  • Alex: “You can't remember the words I said 20 seconds ago, but I'm expected to believe that the gospel authors ... remembered his exact words decades later in a language he wasn't speaking?” (67:45)

Birth Myths, Miracles, Missing Years, and Christology

[73:46–78:00]

• Birth stories and miracles surrounding both Jesus and John the Baptist viewed as mythological embellishments.
• Some debate about the “missing years” of Jesus—possibly explained by a lack of historical importance before his ministry.
• On miracles: “He definitely had a reputation for doing something...something extraordinary was going on...But whether [miracles] happened? I probably don’t think they did.” (94:21)

Christ's Divinity: Was It Developed Later?

• Council of Nicaea (325 AD) codifies the doctrine of the Trinity and explicit divinity of Jesus.
• Early Christian diversity: “There are communities who believed most wacky and incredible things about Jesus fairly early on.” (79:41)

Gnostic Gospels, Non-Canonical Early Christianities

[79:41–92:42]

• Elaine Pagels’ Gnostic Gospels and texts such as the Gospel of Judas and Gospel of Thomas illustrate radical alternative Christianities.
• Gospel of Thomas: "These are the secret teachings of Jesus … some similar to canonical teachings, some incredibly weird.”
• Thomas called “the twin” (Didymus), possible rumors he was Jesus’s literal twin, challenging the virgin birth dogma.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alex (on agnosticism): "I will die on this fence." (03:06)
• Alex: “So the [biblical] library means when somebody says, 'Because the Bible says so' ... it’s a collection of texts.” (05:35)
• Alex on John the Baptist: “He’s my favorite character – we just don’t have very much information at all.” (71:32)
• Host: "So he's like the Christian Jews?" (26:23; on Mormon persecution)
• Host (on ancient sarcasm): “Ebonics in the old. He’s just going, ‘I’m him.’” (39:46)
• Alex on worship: “If proskuneo worship is the kind for God and only God, why is it that after Jesus ascends, nobody offers proskuneo worship anymore?” (59:41)
• Alex on Christology: "I'm not as concerned that the gospels present Jesus as God – I just don't think Jesus claimed it for himself." (97:39)

Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Title / Content | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:25-03:06 | The social utility of religion; Alex’s take on personal faith | | 04:35-07:53 | Gospel authorship, sources, & synoptic problem | | 07:53-14:48 | John the Baptist’s historical role and the “criterion of embarrassment” | | 22:23-26:23 | Mormon history compared with Christian origins | | 35:46-50:01 | Biblical passages cited for/against Jesus’s divine self-claims | | 50:39-59:52 | Semantic debate: worship terms ‘proskuneo’ vs. ‘latreuo’ | | 67:03-68:53 | Oral tradition, memory, and translation issues | | 73:46-78:00 | Myths of Jesus' and John's origin, miracle claims, missing years | | 79:41-92:42 | Gnostic gospels, council of Nicaea, noncanonical traditions | | 97:09 | Bible beef: Alex on apologist Wes Huff, Mark’s method |

Final Notes & Tone

• Tone: Inquisitive, irreverent, playful, but rooted in scholarship—classic Flagrant. Comedians remain agnostic but push on areas of public controversy/fascination. Alex bridges rigorous academic skepticism with story-driven engagement.
• Flow: Episode moves from the personal and societal role of faith to granular scriptural debates, then explodes outward into comparative religion and canon history, ultimately rounding back to interpretations and modern disputes.

Interested in More?

Next-up wish list: Alex O’Connor in conversation with apologist Wes Huff on air, deeper dives into Gnostic Christianity, non-canonical gospels, and even more wild “scholarly beef.”

This summary omits ad sections and non-content banter, focusing on the intellectual and comedic main course.