Flagrant Podcast: "Was Epstein CIA or Israeli Spy?"

Date: September 3, 2025

Hosts: Andrew Schulz and Akash Singh
Guest: Andrew Bustamante (ex–CIA officer, author of Shadow Cell)
Also featuring: Mark Gagnon, AlexxMedia (Doug)

Overview

This Flagrant episode features a wide-ranging, no-holds-barred conversation with Andrew Bustamante, a former CIA operative and author of Shadow Cell. The notoriously irreverent hosts drill Bustamante on spycraft, US-Israel intelligence relations, the global espionage landscape, conspiracy theories (e.g., was Epstein Mossad?), and the future of America and China, interspersing heavy topics with characteristic comedic banter.

Main Segments & Key Discussion Points

1. Is Bustamante Still CIA? — Tinfoil Theories & Spy Drills

• [01:30–07:30]
  • The team jokes about whether Bustamante is still secretly with the CIA.
  • Bustamante walks through an actual Agency exercise: Analysis of Competing Hypotheses (ACH) — weighing reasons he might or might not still be "active."
    • Subjective points: He speaks positively about CIA, is married to a former Agency officer, and has an influential presence.
    • Objective point: "You can’t actually ever leave the CIA,” due to lifelong secrecy contracts. (“...based on the fact that we signed two contracts ... we technically can't ever leave...” – Bustamante, [03:48])
  • He explains why the YouTube landscape isn't easily subverted by covert mouthpieces: “Most of what CIA does, nobody ever hears about ... Most of what they do publicly, they do wrong.” ([06:19])
  • Ultimately, he says the more likely truth is that he is simply a former officer.

2. US-Israel Relations: Pragmatism, Distrust & the “Egg” Analogy

• [08:09–23:00]
  • Why is Israel such a key US ally?
    • Bustamante: “Having Israel as an American ally is a very pragmatic, practical decision ... It's kind of like a 401k. It's a good idea.” ([08:18])
    • Israel is described as a protective ‘egg’ absorbing Middle East shocks for US interests. “Israel is supposed to absorb the impact.” ([09:06])
    • The military/economic symbiosis is explained: Israel’s US-supplied weapons act as anchor points for potential American deployment.
  • Distrust between supposed allies
    • “Israel actively tries to send Mossad agents to penetrate the United States ... They don’t trust us. They don’t trust us to do what we say...” ([18:54])
    • Reciprocated: “At the government level, the US does not trust Israel.” ([21:59])
  • Why such intense lobbying?
    • “If we're already getting so much out of Israel, why does APAC exist? ... Israel doesn't trust us ... they want to shore up that gap.” ([18:54])
  • Allies of convenience: “There are no permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests.” ([22:44])

3. The Current Middle East: Genocide, PR, Power Calculus

• [10:32–15:56]
  • They discuss US support for Israel during Israeli actions in Gaza, international perceptions of genocide, and historic amnesia around atrocities.
  • “Netanyahu’s decisions ... have essentially taken three major adversaries ... and knocked them all back 10 to 15 years." ([14:35])
  • “The ugly truth ... 10 to 15 years of increased security for 330 million cost the price of 50,000 Palestinians.” ([15:39])
  • The hosts push on moral cost vs. geopolitical benefits.

4. Pre-9/11, Mossad, and “Did They Know?”

• [24:29–31:18]
  • Mossad forewarning on 9/11?
    • Bustamante: “There's actually probability to it ... even in the US, CIA and FBI both had info before 9/11.” ([25:03])
    • He points to chronic agency miscommunication and silos that led to intelligence failures.
  • Changes after 9/11
    • Creation of the DNI (Director of National Intelligence) and moves toward “fatter, more expensive, but more effective” agencies. ([26:48])

5. Mossad vs. CIA: Effectiveness and October 7th Failure

• [29:40–34:54]
  • Mossad is likened to “CIA in the 50s–60s ... almost no oversight.”
  • Debates what “effective” means; Mossad is laser-focused on existential threats, while CIA has a much wider but thinner portfolio.
  • On October 7th: “Parallel to 9/11 ... reporting was communicated up [the chain] that was never acted on.” ([31:22])
  • He suggests that “miscommunication, mishandling, and a poor series of decisions” — not conspiracy for power grabs — explain Mossad’s intelligence miss.

6. Terrorism Lexicon & Global Judgments

• [34:40–36:16]
  • “The definition of terrorism is really loose. It’s defined by each country ... In Iran, the US is a terrorist organization.” ([34:54])
  • “One person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter.” ([36:16])

7. Why Are Israeli Agents Linked to Child Sex Offenses? The Epstein Question

• [36:23–46:36]
  • Twitter rumors: “Why do they like kids so much?” Mock outrage at repeated rumors of Mossad-linked child abuse (Epstein).
  • Bustamante posits: US and Israel have mutual extradition pacts that sometimes yield bad optics—men accused of child crimes in America are handed to Israel and later released.
  • On Epstein: “I actually had a convo with another intel friend ... most sound theory is that Epstein may have been an FBI source ... Not a CIA source, not a Mossad source.” ([39:48])
  • Explains that protecting “clandestine informants” is prioritized over prosecuting informants, because “every confidential informant is watching.” ([46:34])
    • “You protect the CI ... at all costs. Every future CI is watching what happens to today’s CI.” ([46:34])
  • On releasing the “Epstein list”: “Investigations take a painfully long time ... Lucky if we saw it in four or five years; more likely 7–14 years.” ([51:36])

8. Conspiracies, Power, and Accountability

• [52:30–55:36]
  • The hosts press if Trump was ever going to release the full Epstein files. Bustamante is blunt: “He’s dishonest.” ([52:50])
  • Discussion of “does Israel or other states have dirt on Trump?”: It’s possible any big power does, but nothing confirmed.

9. CIA Under Trump & Agency Weakness

• [56:00–59:36]
  • Trump’s presidency saw a mass exodus of CIA clandestine officers: “One per month before Trump ... to 30 per month in 2016.” ([57:06])
  • The agency, now, is “weak ... access is weak ... reliant on foreign partners.” ([57:36])
  • “Have we been worse off before?” “Great Depression, the Cold War ... The only reason we ‘won’ the Cold War is the Soviet Union imploded." ([85:50])

10. Decline of US Power: China’s Rise and “Superpower Parity”

• [59:40–94:54]
  • America faces “10–15 years of horrible existence ahead of us ... we have to fix the shit we’ve broken.” ([59:31])
  • China’s economic ascension is said to have paralleled post-WWII American growth, using our playbook (“belt and road,” exporting cheap tech and financing to the Global South).
  • China's method: "They play the long game ... Not innovative, but they steal, promote, and drive." ([84:53])
  • The endgame is parity, then Chinese dominance. "Once [China] has parity, they start to unravel us ... The SOE [state-owned enterprise] model means they’ll just buy and own our innovations directly.” ([92:52])

11. Could Parity Just Mean a “British/Spanish” Decline?

• [92:43–94:54]
  • Mark wonders if the US could just become like Spain or the UK—a “post-superpower” country with a decent standard of living. Bustamante says in the short term, but much depends on whether we regain competitiveness or stagnate under Chinese influence (“state-owned enterprise” model, innovation stifled, national wealth declining).

12. America’s Short Political Cycles are a Weakness

• [112:47–114:34]
  • US presidents think in four-year chunks; adversaries play longer games.
  • “That’s now the president’s problem ... after three presidents, the mistake is someone else’s problem.” ([112:47])
  • Cites the Founders' hope for citizen-leaders, not lifer politicians: “If you want to make America great again—get the fuck out of office, all of you.” ([114:01])

13. Where Would a Former Spy Move?

• [116:44–120:00]
  • Akash asks Bustamante where he’d move his family to escape US decline (he plans to leave in 2027).
    • Shortlist: Spain, Portugal, France, Costa Rica, New Zealand, Georgia (Caucasus), Armenia, Croatia, Aruba.
    • Criteria: must be pro-American (“one of our biggest parameters”), stable government/economy, not liable to switch alliances fast.

14. How Easy Are Fake Passports?

• [121:00–123:11]
  • “Shockingly easy ... it's really just a matter of putting a new picture on an old passport ... As long as the chip and barcode match, you’re good.” ([121:09])

15. The Book: Shadow Cell & CIA Memoir Ethics

• [123:37–129:41]
  • Shadow Cell details how Bustamante and his wife—a targeter—created new espionage methods to counter rising adversaries.
  • The book was initially classified in entirety; after threat of lawsuit (First Amendment), the CIA allowed publication with names and key particulars changed.
  • “Three years ago, everything in that book was classified. Now it's publicly available on the bookshelf. This is the most contemporary, most accurate spy novel to date.” ([123:37])
  • Describes how their real-life mission was partially to serve as “bait” to catch a CIA mole. “If I was director, I’d have done the same thing.” ([127:00])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

With Timestamps & Speaker Attribution

• On Israeli–US Relations:
  • “Israel is supposed to absorb the impact.” — Bustamante [09:06]
  • “Israel actively tries to send Mossad agents to penetrate the United States ... They don’t trust us.” — Bustamante [18:54]
  • “There are no permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests.” — Bustamante [22:44]
• On US global morality:
  • “That's the ugly truth ... 10–15 years of increased security for 330 million cost the price of 50,000 Palestinians.” — Bustamante [15:39]
• On Epstein:
  • “Every future CI is watching what happens to today’s CI.” — Bustamante [46:34]
• On China:
  • “China plays the long game ... Not innovative, but they steal and they promote and they drive.” — Bustamante [84:53]
  • “If China is a superpower by 2035, guess what? Your child’s going to have to speak Mandarin.” — Bustamante [89:13]
  • “Once they have parity, China will tip the scales and start unraveling us.” — Bustamante [92:52]
• On US decline:
  • “10–15 years of horrible existence ahead of us ... we have to fix the shit we’ve broken.” — Bustamante [59:31]
• Spycraft Wisdom:
  • “Every government agency is penetrated by five foreign spies. That’s the rule of thumb.” — Bustamante [145:22]
• On leaving the US:
  • “One of our biggest parameters is it has to be a place that’s pro-American.” — Bustamante [118:28]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:30–07:30] — “Are you still CIA?” & Spy drills
• [08:09–23:00] — US–Israel alliance, distrust, and intelligence games
• [24:29–31:18] — Mossad, 9/11, intelligence failures
• [36:23–46:36] — Child trafficking allegations, Epstein and Mossad
• [56:00–59:36] — CIA under Trump, weakening of US intelligence capability
• [59:40–94:54] — China’s rise, the decline of American power
• [112:47–114:34] — US political short-sightedness vs. long-term foreign strategies
• [116:44–120:00] — Where should a spy move? Bustamante’s expatriation criteria
• [123:37–129:41] — The Shadow Cell story, writing about real-life espionage

Noteworthy Flagrant Humor & Color

• Akash repeatedly jokes about his weight—“I’m your fat co-host...” [00:00]
• The comedians riff on Reddit/Twitter conspiracy rumors (“Why do they like kids so much?” [36:23]); Bustamante takes it seriously rather than shaming the question.
• Sarcasm and frankness are frequent, cutting against the “sensitive” style of many current podcasts.

Conclusion

The episode navigates the overlap of espionage, morality, geopolitics, and pop culture scandal with sharp (but often dark) humor and revealing candor. Bustamante gives rare, plainspoken answers blending realpolitik with behind-the-scenes spy truths, making clear that intelligence work is as unromantic and ethically fraught as the public suspects—if not more.

For listeners who want straight talk, O.G. spycraft, and absurdist comedy about international affairs and scandal, this is a flagship Flagrant episode.

Book Plug:
Shadow Cell — Bustamante’s real-world, recently un-classified memoir of his and his wife’s modern CIA operations—legal battle, moles, tradecraft, and all. “This isn’t the Cold War, this is now.” [124:03]