The Andy Beshear Podcast – Episode 28

Guests: Gov. Maura Healey and DOJ Whistleblower Liz Oyer
Theme: Leadership, Integrity, and the Rule of Law
Date: October 16, 2025
Host: Andy Beshear

Episode Overview

This episode tackles the responsibilities and challenges of public leadership in America, focusing on the intersection of personal integrity, the rule of law, and government service during tumultuous times. Andy Beshear sits down with Massachusetts Governor Maura Healey—herself a former AG and Division 1 basketball player turned pro—and Liz Oyer, a DOJ whistleblower and former U.S. Pardon Attorney, to discuss career journeys, current threats to American democracy, and what it takes to lead with integrity in times of crisis.

Guest 1: Governor Maura Healey

Segment: [01:09]–[28:13]

From the Basketball Court to the State House

• Background: Healey recounts her childhood in New Hampshire and how her mother, post-divorce, sold her wedding ring to pave a basketball court for her and her siblings. The lessons learned on the court—discipline, teamwork, dealing with failure—became the foundation for her career in public service.

• “With sports, it just teaches so much about discipline and training...it teaches you how to win, teaches you how to deal with setback and failure. And I think for me, as a leader, drawing on that sports background has really helped shape and inform how I choose to lead.” —Maura Healey [03:00]

• Harvard and Pro Basketball: Played D1 at Harvard; went pro in Europe as there was no U.S. women’s league at the time.

• “For a little kid who grew up in a small town in New Hampshire, it was a great way for me to see the world...dealing with that kind of pressure was also something that helped shape a little about my character, probably as governor of Massachusetts.” —Maura Healey [04:17]

• Enduring Sports Identity: Celtics fan (“I wore number 14, which was the number worn by Bob Cousy…he endorsed me [for AG], I think that’s probably why I won the race.” —Maura Healey [05:48]), frequent “basketball camp” coach for youth, gripes about NBA losing traditional fundamentals while defending WNBA’s classic style.

• “People don’t know how to do a basic drop step anymore…if you’re talking fundamentals, the women really are showing it.” —Maura Healey [08:18]

Path into Public Service

• Legal Beginnings: Large law firm, then Civil Rights Division in AG’s office (70% pay cut for public service).

• “The reward for public service is just, you know, immeasurable. And from that day forward, never looked back.” —Maura Healey [09:42]

• Notable Cases: Led first successful challenge against the Defense of Marriage Act; predatory lending during the mortgage crisis.

• Underdog AG Campaign: No prior political runs, but won through grassroots focus and public trust in her legal impact.

Standing up During the Trump Eras

• Trump Administration I vs II:

  • Healey and Beshear discuss the earlier period when courts upheld the law and AGs “won” battles visibly. Today, Supreme Court unpredictability and disregard for norms have changed the stakes.
  • “The court is different. ... Donald Trump in the administration, I don’t remember them not following the law once there was a ruling. This is an administration...who don’t believe in the rule of law. They make up their own rules...doing things every day that are illegal and that we’ve never really seen before in 250 years.” —Maura Healey [13:53]

• Federal Funding Threats & National Guard:

  • Discusses President Trump “picking and choosing” which states (notably “blue” states) receive federal aid, impact on real people and infrastructure.

  • On National Guard deployments:

    • “To me, you know, with the Guard, they’re out there working so hard, you’re taking them away from their day jobs, their families. Right. Oh, and by the way, there’s a cost to all that. ... But I do want to say huge credit to the AGs who are out there bringing these cases. They gotta keep bringing these cases.” —Maura Healey [15:52]

  • Rebukes overreach:

    • “I would never ever disrespect another state by sending my Guard into another state when that governor, Republican or Democrat, said, no thank you, we don’t need the help…when I see a comment like that from Governor Abbott that’s so disrespectful to other states is disrespectful to America and the way we’ve been doing things for 250 years.” —Maura Healey [17:43]

Threats to the American Dream

• Cost of Living & Housing:

  • “This is what matters to people. Can I afford food for my family? Can I pay my heating bill? Am I going to be able to go to a doctor? ... So many people who can’t afford housing, can’t afford health care, can’t pay heating bills, can’t afford groceries.” —Maura Healey [19:37]

• Government Responsibility: Need for real government solutions, not distractions or sowing hopelessness.

  • “We gotta. And I think every day as governors, we have the opportunity to show people, you know, what we. We are building housing. We are fighting for your health care. We are delivering for you as a veteran, and we will always take care of you...” —Maura Healey [21:01]

• Tariffs’ and Shutdowns’ Impact:

  • Tariffs are raising prices for Americans, harming small businesses, soybean farmers, and rural hospitals [21:44–23:07].
  • Health care cuts threaten research and services, with Massachusetts cited as losing $4B in under a year.

• Scientific Investment & Vaccine Policy:

  • Trump-era cuts to research funding led to “brain drain,” with foreign governments recruiting American experts; states like MA now funding their own research.
  • Growing public health responsibilities as CDC is “wrecked”:
    • “If people want [childhood vaccines], you should be able to get it. Here’s where states are important. ... These are things we never would have had to do before. That’s the world we’re in.” —Maura Healey [27:22]

Personal Note

• Superpower: Laundry—calming, learned in Harvard athletics department [27:36].

Guest 2: Liz Oyer – DOJ Whistleblower

Segment: [29:56]–[50:25]

The Story of a Firing

• Career Role: Pardon Attorney at DOJ, appointed under Biden, not a political appointee but career staff.

• “My job was to review applications for clemency...and to make recommendations for that type of relief that were not based on politics, but really that were based on the merits of the case.” —Liz Oyer [30:29]

• Trump Era Firing:

  • Was asked to recommend restoring gun rights to Mel Gibson, a Trump friend with a domestic violence conviction. Refused, forcing her departure.
  • “I’m not used to being told, here’s what the recommendation is that we want you to make. Now make it. ... All I knew about Mel Gibson was that he had a history of domestic violence and that he was a friend of the president. And based on those considerations, I couldn’t make that recommendation. And within a few hours, I was fired.” —Liz Oyer [31:35]

• Suppression of Dissent:

  • Before testifying to Congress about her firing, DOJ attempted to intimidate her by sending armed marshals to her home with a warning letter.
  • “I could see at that point that the leadership of the Department of Justice is serious about intimidating people into silence. But I wasn’t willing to be silenced. … And I went forward and I testified anyway on that Monday.” —Liz Oyer [34:24]

DOJ Politicization & Rule of Law

• Weaponization of Justice:

  • Trump pressured AG to indict “enemies,” replacing career prosecutors with loyalists—highlighting the case of the US Attorney for Eastern District of Virginia replaced by an insurance lawyer to bring charges against former FBI Director Comey and NY AG Letitia James.
  • “She has no training as a prosecutor. She has no judgment as to where charges are or are not appropriate. But she’s been installed in this important position for the sole purpose, it seems, of bringing charges that are politically motivated against enemies of the president.” —Liz Oyer [35:44]

• “The reason that happened seems to be that there was literally not one single prosecutor in that office that was willing to go in that grand jury and seek that indictment against James Comey or against Letitia James.” —Liz Oyer [37:45]

• Supreme Court’s Role:

  • “It seems like the Supreme Court, at the end of the day, a majority of them seem to share this president’s vision for our future...I don’t at this moment have a lot of confidence that the Supreme Court is going to save our democracy. I think we’re at the point where it’s really up to us, the citizens, to build the society that we want...” —Liz Oyer [47:58]

Erosion of Norms and Public Safety

• Purge of Expertise:

  • “The biggest concern that I have is really the sidelining and rooting out of career expertise within the department. … This has led to an exodus of really critical expertise within the department. … It really makes us less safe.” —Liz Oyer [40:31]
  • Cites FBI national security and counterterrorism resources redirected to immigration enforcement, dismantling child predator task forces.

• National Guard Overreach:

  • Deployments orchestrated by Stephen Miller, creating unnecessary fear and spectacle rather than addressing genuine threats.

  • “The militarization of our cities is a very—it’s very scary to people. … I walk around the national monuments and see men with rifles strapped to their chests just standing around. It’s just a very bizarre thing to see in an American city.” —Liz Oyer [43:59]

  • Guardsmen are “bored,” disconnected from crime scenes but visible at monuments—sometimes literally asked by citizens to carry groceries.

    • “We really don’t need National Guard troops here to help people carry their groceries.” —Liz Oyer [45:48]

Standing Up and Looking Forward

• Despite intimidation and threats, Oyer continues educating the public about government and the law via social platforms:
  • “I have found a new calling which is talking to my fellow citizens about what’s going on on social media. ... I have found that I can continue to serve the public ... by educating people on different social media platforms.” —Liz Oyer [49:31]

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Teamwork and Leadership:

  • “That sports background has really helped shape and inform how I choose to lead and the kind of team...I run.” —Maura Healey [03:00]

• On Justice Under Fire:

  • “They make up their own rules...doing things every day that are illegal and that we’ve never really seen before in 250 years.” —Maura Healey [13:53]

• On Public Service Sacrifice:

  • “The reward for public service is just, you know, immeasurable.” —Maura Healey [09:42]

• On Intimidation:

  • “I could see at that point that the leadership of the Department of Justice is serious about intimidating people into silence. But I wasn’t willing to be silenced.” —Liz Oyer [34:24]

• On Supreme Court’s Failures:

  • “All of the other institutions, institutional safeguards, seem to be failing us.” —Liz Oyer [47:58]

Notable Timestamps

• [01:09] – Start of Maura Healey interview
• [03:00] – Sports & leadership connections
• [09:30] – Transition from private law to AG’s office
• [13:53] – On differences between Trump administrations
• [19:37] – Discussion of the American Dream and cost of living
• [21:44] – Tariffs and healthcare impacts
• [27:36] – Maura Healey’s “secret superpower”; segment close
• [29:56] – Liz Oyer introduction
• [31:35] – Oyer’s firing for refusing political order
• [34:24] – DOJ intimidation tactics ahead of her testimony
• [35:44] – Weaponization of the DOJ, politicized prosecutions
• [40:31] – The loss of DOJ expertise and public safety risks
• [43:59] – National Guard deployments and their effect on civilians
• [47:58] – Doubts about Supreme Court protecting democracy
• [49:31] – Oyer’s new mission: informing the public via social media

Final Thoughts

This episode offers frank, personal stories from two figures who have faced direct pressure to compromise ethics and the rule of law, and refused. Themes of teamwork, hope, resilience, and active citizenship run throughout. Both guests challenge listeners to remain vigilant and proactive in defending democracy when traditional legal and governmental safeguards are under threat.

For those concerned about the health of American institutions and leadership in difficult times, this conversation is essential listening.