Season 1, Episode 2: Nicole Avant on Loss, Leadership & Legacy

Summary

Season 1, Episode 2: Nicole Avant on Loss, Leadership & Legacy

Release Date: April 18, 2025

In the second episode of The Andy Beshear Podcast, host Andy Beshear engages in a deep and meaningful conversation with the multifaceted guest, Nicole Avant. Nicole is a renowned movie producer, author, and former diplomat, known for her work on the Netflix film The Six Triple Eight. This episode navigates through Nicole's rich personal history, her professional journey, experiences with loss, and the profound influence of faith in her life.

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1. A Rich Family Heritage

Nicole Avant begins by sharing insights into her upbringing, emphasizing the profound influence of her parents. Her father, Clarence, born in 1931 in Jim Crow-era North Carolina, instilled in Nicole the values of perseverance and equality. She reflects:

“Everyone deserves the right to run their race.”
— Nicole Avant, [02:43]

Her mother, raised in New York City, balanced her love for the arts and sciences, teaching Nicole the importance of giving back and serving communities. This blend of resilience and creativity shaped Nicole's worldview and career aspirations.

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2. Navigating Political Dynamics

Growing up in a politically active family, Nicole emphasizes the value of diverse perspectives. She recounts her support for Barack Obama, even when her parents backed Hillary Clinton, highlighting respectful familial debates:

“Everyone wanted to solve the problem, and it's okay if everyone has a different [view].”
— Nicole Avant, [07:59]

This environment fostered her ability to listen and appreciate varying viewpoints, a skill that has undoubtedly influenced her diplomatic and leadership roles.

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3. Diplomatic Service: Ambassador to the Bahamas

Nicole shares her experiences serving as the U.S. Ambassador to the Bahamas under President Obama. She describes it as the "greatest experience of my life," emphasizing the collaborative spirit and the surprising unity within her team:

“They [DEA agents and border agents] were so afraid of me... but it was about working together side by side.”
— Nicole Avant, [13:28]

Her tenure underscored the importance of teamwork and breaking down preconceived notions, showcasing her leadership and adaptability in international diplomacy.

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4. Producing The Six Triple Eight

A significant portion of the episode centers on Nicole’s production of The Six Triple Eight, a film spotlighting the all-female, all-black battalion that played a crucial role in World War II. Motivated by her parents' legacy, Nicole felt a personal duty to tell this story. She recounts:

“The last thing I want to do is produce a movie,”
— Nicole Avant, [16:11]

Despite initial hesitation, her father’s encouragement propelled her to bring the project to fruition. The film’s success at the NAACP Image Awards and its Oscar nomination for Best Song marked a full-circle moment, honoring both her parents' influences.

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5. Coping with Loss and Grief

The conversation takes an emotional turn as Nicole discusses the tragic loss of her mother in a home invasion. She speaks candidly about the challenges of grief and the strength derived from her faith:

“I have to decide, I’m not going to allow the grief to take me down.”
— Nicole Avant, [18:03]

Nicole emphasizes the importance of acknowledging grief without letting it hinder her progress, highlighting her resilience and determination to honor her mother's legacy through her work.

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6. Faith as a Guiding Force

Faith plays a central role in Nicole’s life, providing her with strength and direction. She shares how her spiritual beliefs help her navigate both triumphs and tribulations:

“On the mountaintop, I'm always praising God. And in the valley, I'm still praising God.”
— Nicole Avant, [24:12]

Nicole attributes her ability to lead and persevere to her unwavering faith, which continues to inspire her initiatives and personal growth.

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7. The Intersection of Faith and Politics

Nicole and Andy delve into the role of faith in political leadership, advocating for its open discussion and influence:

“It's so important for Americans to realize that many of the people that we all respect and admire... were rooted and grounded in faith.”
— Nicole Avant, [26:59]

She champions the Golden Rule as a universal principle that transcends political divides, fostering empathy and understanding among diverse groups.

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8. Addressing Tariffs with John McConnell and John Rabinowitz

Transitioning from Nicole’s interview, Andy brings in John McConnell and John Rabinowitz to discuss the fluctuating tariff policies under President Trump. They highlight the adverse effects on small businesses and American families:

“Tariffs are a tax on the American people. They will make things cost more for struggling Americans.”
— John McConnell, [33:19]

John Rabinowitz elaborates on the unpredictability of the tariffs, which disrupt business operations and daily living costs, leading to financial strain for many:

“A lot of small businesses are struggling with how to handle this reality.”
— John McConnell, [34:33]

The discussion underscores the tangible impact of tariffs, emphasizing that they are not merely economic tools but policies that directly affect the livelihoods of everyday Americans.

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9. Economic and Social Implications of Tariffs

The guests delve into how tariffs exacerbate economic challenges, especially for small businesses importing goods:

“Things have not gotten less expensive since then. And that's going to impact a lot of that senior market.”
— John McConnell, [35:02]

They discuss the broader economic repercussions, including increased costs for consumers and potential layoffs as businesses grapple with higher expenses and reduced profitability.

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10. Global Stability and Security Concerns

Andy and his guests express apprehensions about the global implications of aggressive tariff policies, highlighting strained relationships with allies like Canada and the potential threats to international security:

“Sending American products to countries that aren’t welcoming them can damage long-standing relationships.”
— Andy Beshear, [41:32]

The conversation reflects on the delicate balance between economic policies and maintaining robust international alliances, emphasizing the need for thoughtful and consistent strategies.

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11. Confronting Political Violence

Andy shares personal experiences with political threats and violence, underscoring the escalating tensions in the political landscape. He highlights the importance of rejecting political violence unequivocally:

“Violence is wrong, period.”
— Andy Beshear, [47:41]

This segment serves as a sobering reminder of the state's vulnerabilities and the critical need for unity and peace in political discourse.

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12. Lighthearted Closure with Lila Beshear

The episode concludes on a lighter note with Andy’s child, Lila Beshear, introducing the modern phrase “do it for the plot.” This segment adds a delightful contrast to the episode’s heavier themes:

Lila Beshear:

“Do it for the plot. Think more about the adventure of it than the outcome.”
— Lila Beshear, [50:48]

The playful exchange encourages embracing new experiences and taking risks, reinforcing the episode’s overarching themes of resilience and growth.

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Notable Quotes:

• Nicole Avant:
  “Everyone deserves the right to run their race.”
  — [02:43]

• Nicole Avant:
  “I have to decide, I’m not going to allow the grief to take me down.”
  — [18:03]

• Nicole Avant:
  “On the mountaintop, I'm always praising God. And in the valley, I'm still praising God.”
  — [24:12]

• John McConnell:
  “Tariffs are a tax on the American people. They will make things cost more for struggling Americans.”
  — [33:19]

• Andy Beshear:
  “Violence is wrong, period.”
  — [47:41]

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Conclusion

Season 1, Episode 2 of The Andy Beshear Podcast offers listeners an enriching blend of personal narratives, political insights, and economic analysis. Through Nicole Avant’s inspiring journey and the critical discussion on tariffs with John and John, the episode underscores the importance of leadership, faith, and resilience in navigating both personal and societal challenges. The closing lighthearted segment with Lila Beshear leaves audiences with a sense of optimism and encouragement to embrace life's adventures.

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For those who haven't listened, this episode provides a comprehensive and engaging exploration of enduring themes that resonate deeply in today's world, making it a must-listen for anyone seeking real connections and meaningful conversations.

Transcript

[Nicole Avant]

Foreign.

[Andy Beshear]

Welcome back to the Andy Beshear Podcast. As you can tell, I'm not in the studio because for episode two, we had so much good content. We're going to split it into two separate episodes. So this is what we're looking at in this episode. We start with an incredible interview with Nicole Avon. She is a movie producer, most recently from the Netflix film the Six Triple Eight. She also has written a book and is a former diplomat. Then we're gonna have a conversation with John and John about tariffs and their impacts on family and small business. And of course, one of my kids this time, Lila Beshear, is going to teach me some lingo. But as always, we want to make sure our conversation is real. So we're going to apply those cast rules. Here's a flashback to what they are. Number one, be authentic. You Be you. Boo. Number two, talk like a real human being. When folks are going through addiction, they don't call it substance use disorder. When someone's hungry, they don't call it food insecurity. We want to make sure this is a conversation where we're using real words that have real meaning with real emotion. Number three, no debating reality. Far too often now we see people trying to argue against facts. Number four, tell your why. We want to get beyond just what you think and get to why you think it. We want our guests to talk about what drives them in life and how they make their decisions. When we talk about our why, we can give each other the grace and the space to disagree, but to understand somebody could be coming from a good place. And number five, have fun with that. Let's get to it. I hope you enjoy. Back to the studio. Our second ever guest on the Andy Beshear Podcast is Nicole Avant. Nicole is a movie producer, an author, a former diplomat, and so much more. She's been on the Daily show, the Jennifer Hudson show, the Sheri show, and now the Andy Beshear Podcast. Nicole, welcome to the show.

[Nicole Avant]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Andy Beshear]

Nicole.

[Nicole Avant]

Happy to be here.

[Andy Beshear]

I just kind of want to start with your background. You had one of the most interesting upbringings as we've talked about it. Tell us a little bit about your dad and your mom.

[Nicole Avant]

You know, I'm very grateful and blessed for the upbringing that I had. I was fortunate to have two great parents who were great Americans, who were both patriots and loved their country. And they knew the blessings that came with being an American and wanted me to make sure that I experienced as many blessings as possible. My father grew up In Jim Crow, North Carolina. Born 1931. Segregation. The worst of times in America. But he still believed in. In himself, and he believed in his soul, and he believed in the soul of so many other people. And that's why he worked so hard to make sure that everyone had their rights, that everyone was able to at least get on the mark and run their race. He was very big about everybody deserves the right to run their race. And my mom was the same, different upbringing, and she was, you know, about 10 years younger. She had a much different life in New York City and, you know, a great woman of the arts and very smart in science and really taught me about the power of giving back and the power of serving communities and basically the power of serving whomever is in front of you in the moment. They're very powerful lives.

[Andy Beshear]

You were born on your mom's 28th birthday. What's it like to share a birthday with your mom?

[Nicole Avant]

It was. I'm sure for her it was annoying, but for me it was cool. You know, I mean, I look back now, I just turned 57 last month, and I look back now, and I think, you know, to come in into her life on her birthday, I mean, from my mom's point of view, she said it was the greatest blessing. It was a surprise. I was definitely two weeks early and. But it was. It was great to celebrate with her because, yes, I got the parties that I wanted and to do the things that I wanted to do, but she also took me to whatever celebration that she was having, and that was usually in a museum, that was usually with all of her girlfriends or her family, but it was usually about. It was always celebrating the arts in some way. And I think that was very helpful to me growing up.

[Andy Beshear]

Well, and your dad, Clarence, was the chairman of Motown Records. That must have been really interesting folks that would come through your house or you'd see on an everyday basis.

[Nicole Avant]

It was great. I mean, you know, and. And that even came, you know, Governor late in his life. And. And that was such a great blessing and almost the cherry on top of everything. But, yeah, he. He started in the record business. He had started in the 60s and he had managed, you know, everybody R and B acts and classical acts and started in jazz. And all of those people came through our. My. My childhood home. And. But, you know, he also was a businessman. And so all these wonderful people taught me a lot of things.

[Andy Beshear]

So let me ask you, who was the funniest person that would come through your home that you would look forward to seeing when they were in town.

[Nicole Avant]

No one has asked me that question. I would say the funniest person was actually Muhammad Ali, a Kentuckian. Muhammad Ali was. He loved magic tricks. So he'd love to do these magic tricks and throw me off all the time. And to watch him giggle. He had a silent giggle, but I always found him so funny because he would. He'd love to just trip people up with his magic. And he got such a kick out of it. And I loved. And I always remember laughing when he was in the house. Always smiling and laughing when he was in the house.

[Andy Beshear]

So your parents were also into politics out there, supporting folks. Tell me a little bit about growing up in a political family. That's something. I know a little bit about it.

[Nicole Avant]

I thought it was great. I mean, to hear all these different backgrounds and understand different opinions and different views. For me, it was very, very important. It was important to understand the role that we have as Americans and to live in a democracy and to be able to use my power to vote. Remember, I was the first person born in my family with all of my rights. So it was a big deal for my parents to make sure that I didn't squander the rights that people fought for. My mom taught me, don't you ever dare waste sacrifices of other people. And so for me, I loved meeting politicians and I loved hearing different points of view. Not all Democrats had the same point of view, and they had Republicans and independence as well. And that's what I loved is listening. Everybody wanted to solve the problem, and it's okay if everyone has a different. As you know very well, people have different views of how to solve a problem. But the good news was, is that everybody wanted to solve a problem. At least they wanted to solve a problem.

[Andy Beshear]

I think that's so important that this idea that the media now tries to say, if you're a Democrat, you think one way. If you're a Republican, you think another way. When we all think differently, we've all had different experiences.

[Nicole Avant]

Absolutely. And I, you know, there's different type of Democrats and there's different type of Republicans and there's moderates in both parties or all parties. I mean, when I vote governor, you should see me. I mean, I'm mostly in the center, but where I vote, it's all over the place, my ballot. But I love the fact that I get to live in the country, and I always choose the best person that I think who has the best solution for the problems at hand in that moment. And I love the idea that all of Us get to do that.

[Andy Beshear]

So growing up and then now in life, you've had presidents come through your home and your parents home. I've never experienced that yet, but what's that like? You've got to get incredibly nervous. I mean, the President of the United States is coming over to your house.

[Nicole Avant]

It's, it could be nerve wracking for sure. That and interestingly, because it's a big deal to your point, I mean, it's not just that person coming over, it's the entire team and everybody that goes with it and the protection team and then the advanced team and then this motorcade. It's a lot, but it is the most. What a blessing. That's all I could say is it's such a big deal and it's such an honor to have this level of diplomacy, to have this level of leadership in your home. And, and especially, and I say that because of the way my father grew up, at the time that he grew up, everyone would have told him that there was no way that his future was ever going to show up. That, you know, my dad didn't have, you know, indoor plumbing. I'm sure like your grandparents, you don't know. I mean, it was a different time. My dad was 92 and a half years old when he passed away. So he didn't have anything, Governor, that we have nothing. Indoor plumbing, this and that, indoor water, nothing. So the idea that he could become something and he would say, you know, I was taught to run from the Ku Klux Klan. I knew what to do if the Ku Klux Klan was coming. So to have that mindset as a child and then to be able to, to, to have the life that he had later in his life, it a, it shows you the progress of our country, which I don't think we talk about enough. And, and, but that's the best part of seeing these leaders come into my home was seeing my parents reaction and their, oh my God, can you believe, can you believe our lives now? Especially for my father.

[Andy Beshear]

Wow.

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah.

[Andy Beshear]

So speaking of there being different opinions within each party, but also within families, I know that when a certain election came up, your parents were backing Hillary Clinton and you backed a guy named Barack Obama.

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Andy Beshear]

What was it like with you on one side and your parents on the other?

[Nicole Avant]

It was, it was tough at first because, you know, as much as my dad, you know, he met, you know, then Senator Obama at that, you know, very early on he liked him, he knew he was going to be something great. But he had, he just did not see this, but I did. And I said, listen, I'm not trying to get into friendships here. I'm not trying to make a mess out of anything. But I just know that, I know that. I know that I want to be a part of this movement. And he looked at me and he said, nicole, I think you're crazy. I don't think this is going to happen. But if you really believe this, I said, I have to be a part of this movement. I just know that I want to be a part of it. Whether we win or lose, I know that this is change in America and I need to be a part of it. And so there are lots of bets going back and forth. And then I finally, you know, then my mom was like, oh, I like both. I don't know what to do. It was a great time, though. It was, it was, it was great. Because you know what? I love, to be honest with you, I loved beating my dad finally at something.

[Andy Beshear]

Amen.

[Nicole Avant]

I beat him at something.

[Andy Beshear]

Now this. We're going to answer an age old question right here, right now, and that's. Can your parents ever come to you later and say you were right and they were wrong? Did he do it?

[Nicole Avant]

No, actually, you know what? Actually he did. I'm sorry, I take that back. He didn't say. He wrote in a letter. And I actually just found that letter not too long ago. But he, he admitted, he said, who knew? And you had so much to do with this. And what he was really forcing me to do was take credit for my part in that movement. He definitely wanted me to make sure that I didn't push it to the side. Like, oh, there were so many people, which there were, of course. But for him to have his daughter be a part of that movement and then me be right, it was a big deal for him. And I don't think he realized how much of a big deal it would be for him.

[Andy Beshear]

Well, and I'm sure you were feeling what I sometimes feel. We crave credit, especially from our parents, and then it makes us really uncomfortable.

[Nicole Avant]

Yes, 100%. That's exactly. It's true. We crave it and then it's okay, okay, okay, okay. You know, okay. It's enough.

[Andy Beshear]

So after President Obama gets elected, you serve as his diplomat U.S. ambassador to the Bahamas. Now, most people that are downloading this podcast, me included, have never been an ambassador. Tell us what it's like.

[Nicole Avant]

Oh, I thought it was. It was the greatest experience of my life so far. I can say that hands down. I mean, to Be able to meet so many people from around the world. You know, my whole entire dip corps was incredible. My diplomatic corps, but more importantly, Governor, for me, it was being in the embassy and leading the embassy, but with a team and having this great team in place and people that I would have never really encountered before because we have such different lives, right? So the DEA agents and the border agents and everybody that I would sit around and we would work together as a team, they are still very good friends of mine. But we all would laugh saying, I mean, they were so afraid of me, to be honest with you. I mean, when they found out that I was coming to be the ambassador, one of them told me, he said, oh, my God. We thought, great, here's this tree hugger from Los Angeles. All she's going to do is talk about climate change. This is going to be a disaster. And they didn't realize that I was very, very focused on law enforcement and that they were going to be my friends and that we were going to work together side by side and that I was going to really support them. And that was a big surprise for me, too. Just going into the Bahamas because everyone thinks, oh, it's the Bahamas. What a great post. You could do nothing. And that's the opposite. It is a law enforcement post. And my team there at that time was the best of the best.

[Andy Beshear]

Now, you've also now produced movies and recently produced the Six Triple Eight, a great film on Netflix, was up for a number of awards. And I know for you this was. So tell us a little bit about that journey.

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah, it was, you know. So the Six Triple Eight is a story that came to me through my fellow producers about the all female, all black battalion that fought in World War II. And the beauty of the story for me, because it was such a special journey, I had just shown my mom, this is a reel that was given to me about this film. And so we had no director, no writer, no nothing. And she said to me, you have to do this movie, you have to tell this story. This is so important for the American people to understand that these women helped win World War II. And so then, you know, long story short, as you know, I hired Tyler Perry to write and direct, and he did a brilliant job. And Kerry Washington starred in it, and she did a brilliant job. The whole cast was great. And then come full circle. The night that my father transitioned over, I showed him the final cut of the 6 triple 8. So we were able to watch the movie that he told me I must finish after my mom died. And I said, the last thing I want to do is produce a movie or write a book. And he goes, you're going to do both because you have to keep living because life is going to throw you crap all the time. But you have to make a decision on how you're going to respond to any adversity. And so the beauty for me, Andy, was, you know, we were nominated for every category in the NAACP Image Awards, and we won every single award. And we were nominated for an Oscar for best song, and that was beautiful. And so for me, it was kind of a full circle moment and a journey that I started with my mom saying, please go do this. Make this film. And ended with my father showing him the final result.

[Andy Beshear]

Well, and for some of that to come out of trauma.

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Andy Beshear]

As we're filming this, it's been two years and one day since I lost my friend Tommy in a mass shooting at Old National Bank. And we've talked a little bit about loss. You losing your mom to a murder during a home invasion. Now, how do you pick yourself up? How do you dig out of and not let one terrible moment overwhelm so many amazing memories?

[Nicole Avant]

Well, I had to, believe me, I wanted to. You get something so traumatic, something so traumatic happens, and the first thing is you go into self preservation, you go into survival mode. And it was also a decision and that I had to make. I had to make a decision that I was going to stand in my faith and that I was going to trust God and I was going to trust life and I was going to move forward. Now, even though I made that decision, doesn't mean that days weren't hard, just like you. Doesn't mean that grief didn't show up and almost take you down. Doesn't mean any of that. I always tell people, you have to. You know, for me, what helped is using the word. And I was grieving, I was sad, I was emotional, I was confused, angry. And I still chose to move forward. I chose to allow life to. I knew that, you know, that life was still good and that life was still worth living and that I had a life to live and that I wanted to very much honor my mother's soul, which is why I wrote think you'll be happy. And I. And that's really what it was. But it always went back to the decision. And I never felt guilty about the grief or. But I also knew that I was not. I had to decide. I'm not going to allow the grief to take me down and take me out of the arena of life.

[Andy Beshear]

I think that's so important that you don't deny yourself the grief. You don't deny the anger that you have to go through. But that doesn't mean that you don't keep living and pushing forward.

[Nicole Avant]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Andy Beshear]

Yesterday, I needed time. I needed time to be sad and to recognize that I wasn't going to be sad for five days in a row. But that day, that's where I was. And how grief is so tricky in that two years. It's been two years and a day, but sometimes it feels like it's been 20 minutes. And some days it feels like it's been 20 years. And to try to give myself space, not to feel guilty about that either when it creeps up on you or when it's not present for some of those moments.

[Nicole Avant]

100%. I couldn't agree with you more. And I'm sure you found it, too. You don't know when the memory. You don't know when something's gonna set off a memory about your loved one, about whomever crossed over, whether tragic or not. You just don't know. And when it does, just like you said, it could happen two years ago. My mother was. Three years and three months ago. There are certain days where I. It's something just. I can hear a song. I can look at a photo. I can hear someone's laughter. And something reminds me of her. And it takes me right back. And I need a moment. But we have to remember that it's. And it's okay to give ourselves those moments because it's a human experience. And I think a lot of people do not want to. We all want to avoid grief as much as possible, but it's very difficult because that means you're avoiding life as much as possible. We're all going to grieve in very different ways. You could lose a job that you love and be falsely terminated or wrongly terminated or something, and you love it, and you're going to grieve and it's okay.

[Andy Beshear]

And I wonder if one of the challenges that we're facing in our country right now, with some of the anger and division in the rest, is that we haven't let ourselves grieve after a pandemic, took so many lives. I mean, we all know multiple people that aren't here with us, but it seems like we're supposed to act like it never happened. I agree with you and never talk about it. And I think we see all these manifestations that are out there, whether it's people Lashing out against other people or pretending that things didn't happen or that facts aren't facts. And I just, I wonder if maybe one of the things that we need to do as a country is to come back and say, yes, the pandemic happened and yes, we lost a lot of people.

[Nicole Avant]

I think it's a great point. And I actually haven't heard anybody else mention that. So kudos to you because you can't have this pandemic that we had. And so many things during the time of the pandemic when our nation is, you know, everyone's arguing with each other. But to your point, people are dying, people are hurting, people are exhausted. God bless all the people on the front line, whether they're nurses or doctors or people on the ground or all first responders. God bless every single person who put their lives in jeopardy to keep all of us safe. And then it just was over and we didn't even discuss it, as if just didn't happen. And I think, I think that there's a lot of residue from that. I think a lot of people, to your point, haven't. We haven't processed what we just went through as a nation together. I don't think we've properly said thank you to the people that we need to be saying thank you to. And. And they lost so much. They lost their families, they lost time with their children, they lost time with their parents to keep strangers safe. And I think there's such honor in that. And I don't think that was really. I don't think they were given their flowers, for sure.

[Andy Beshear]

And what I saw in especially those healthcare heroes and first responders was people living out their faith. And that's what I want to talk about next, because in this podcast, we try to get to our why, what actually drives us. Because I'm convinced if people had conversations where they talked about their why, we could find a lot more common ground. And I think your and my why is our faith.

[Nicole Avant]

Yes, absolutely.

[Andy Beshear]

Tell me how your faith has driven you, whether it's through hard times or through opportunities and how we make sure that those opportunities are available for so many.

[Nicole Avant]

Yeah, because look, I'm grateful that my mother especially raised me to be a woman of faith and to. To lean on, not my own own understandings, but the understand, you know, to just lean on God all the time and lean on and trust life. I mean, my mom's whole point was you have to be able to trust life and have faith that when things don't make sense and when things are unfair, unjust, or what have you that the universe will. You have to allow the universe to figure it out. You're not going to figure out anything. But I'm telling you, I wouldn't be sitting here today and I wouldn't have made the movie that we just discussed or written the book that we just discussed without having my faith and without believing in a power bigger than me and my Creator is just extremely important to me. And to your point, through the good times and the bad times, on the mountaintop, I'm always praising God. And in the valley, I'm still praising God. And I am asking for guidance and I'm asking for divine intelligence and I'm asking for. For divine direction. But no matter what, I'm always grateful and thankful and appreciative for every single thing that I have. And that is faith of not knowing. You just know that you know that you know that you're not going to drop. You're not going to fall through the floor. That's what I mean about standing in my faith. Everybody that called me after my mom was murdered, the first thing I would say is, I'm. Everyone will say, how are you? My reply was, I'm standing in my faith. Didn't mean I felt good, didn't mean I wasn't confused, didn't mean I'm standing in my faith. And I love the way you depend on your faith because I've seen you and your state go through challenging times and you can tell the leader who has faith and all of a sudden you're able to lead with some other energy and you want to benefit every single person.

[Andy Beshear]

And I think a mistake that's been made by leaders, by those in politics, is to stop talking about faith.

[Nicole Avant]

Couldn't agree more.

[Andy Beshear]

To act like it's either not there or feeling like you can't talk about what drives you. It's like we see one group that doesn't talk about it, even though they support policies that love their neighbor and recognize everyone's their neighbor. And then sometimes we see people just directly manipulating faith, holding a Bible, but then doing the exact opposite of what's in it. So what's your take on faith and politics?

[Nicole Avant]

I think it's very important. I think from our founding fathers up until now. I mean, I think that it's so important for Americans to realize that many of the people that we all respect and admire and we look back at their history and most of them were rooted and grounded in faith. And I think that, you know, to your Point. I know so many people, so many politicians. I'll just say for right now, I know so many Democrats who just. I know they go to church, and I know they have beliefs, and I know what they feel, and I know that they believe in the Golden Rule, but they will not talk about it as if it's some taboo. And I. You know, as you've seen and, you know, anybody who read think you'll be happy. I mean, I put Scripture throughout. The book wasn't shoving religion down anyone's throat. It was just, this is the way I live, and I'm not ashamed of it at all. And. And I think that it's. I think that. I think that it should be, you know, again, the Golden Rule, which you and I have talked about quite a bit. And I think if anything, when people go back to just that one rule which covers everything that's right, will help you, you know, base everything on that. And. And I try. I don't do it all the time, and I've definitely missed the mark many times.

[Andy Beshear]

We all have. We all have. We all have.

[Nicole Avant]

And we all will, by the way, until we leave. But that always gets me right back where I need to be, is every time I'm confused, every time I'm not sure about something, every time I don't know how to have a difficult conversation, I go back to the Golden Rule. You could still have the conversation. That's difficult. But all of a sudden, there's a grace that comes over me, at least, because I'm using the Golden Rule.

[Andy Beshear]

When you're driven by that Golden Rule, even if people disagree with you, they can understand where you're coming from. I remember. Yeah. In my reelection, I vetoed one of the nastiest pieces of anti LGBTQ legislation that I'd seen. And when I explained my why, it was, you know, my faith teaches me that all children are children of God and that those children are my neighbors. And I want them to know that somebody cares about them and respects them and will stand up for them. And I still remember the next day, somebody walked up to me and I thought, oh, my goodness, I know what's coming here. And he stuck out his hand and I shook it, and he said, I'm not sure I agree with you, but I know you're doing what you think is right.

[Nicole Avant]

Exactly. And I think that when the more people that know people's why, and if they believe, they're at least trying, even if they disagree. I've had it, too, where I don't really agree with this. But I understand your why and I know that your why is coming from a good place.

[Andy Beshear]

So we typically like to end interviews on a slightly lighter note. So in your film, you have one very well known actor named Oprah Winfrey.

[Nicole Avant]

Yes.

[Andy Beshear]

What was it like having Oprah Winfrey on set? And do you have a really good Oprah Winfrey story?

[Nicole Avant]

Oh, gosh, I have a lot of good Oprah stories. I mean, first of all, to answer your first question, to have her, whether it's on set or anywhere, I mean, she's just, you know, she's a pro. I mean, she's Oprah. So she's going to bring her full self to whatever she does. So it was an honor to have her in the six, triple eight. And you know, I will say I don't have, I will say that the one thing that she, people don't realize truly how funny she can be and serious at the same time. Do you know what I mean? I mean, she is, she's focused, she's driven, she's all these things. Everybody looks at her as this, but she's really just one of the coolest, kindest, funniest, down to earth people I have ever spent time with, honestly. And I don't, so I don't know if I have a specific story. But I mean, every time I'm with her, I feel lighter, I feel brighter. I'm always laughing. And even through a difficult conversation, she'll come back to a truth in a way, and she'll bring you down to your knees in truth. But she'll find a way to still make it light after, no matter what you've just discussed.

[Andy Beshear]

If you played Oprah Winfrey in poker, who would win?

[Nicole Avant]

Oprah?

[Andy Beshear]

If you had a debate with Oprah Winfrey, who would win?

[Nicole Avant]

Ooh, me.

[Andy Beshear]

All right. And what about chess?

[Nicole Avant]

Shedwin?

[Andy Beshear]

Well, Nicole, thank you so much for joining the Andy Beshear Podcast for sharing your why, for being so real. These are the type of experiences that we want people to have and to process all the craziness of this world in conversation between friends, just like we had.

[Nicole Avant]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Andy Beshear]

For our next segment, we brought back John and John to talk about the issues of the week. The issue that dominated this last week is President Trump's on again, off again tariffs. At one point, they were going to be across the board, then they were going to be reciprocal, then they were going to be industry specific. And now apparently they're going to be exemptions. I think what we know is that it is ever changing and who knows what tomorrow will bring. But as we talk through, especially this first topic, we've got to apply rule number three, and that's no debating reality. So two facts are going to guide us through this discussion. The first is that tariffs are a tax on the American people. They will make things cost more struggling Americans. And second, the tariff decision ultimately comes down to one person and one person alone. That's the president. So with that, John, you run a small business.

[John McConnell]

Yes.

[Andy Beshear]

And advise a lot of people that run small businesses. What are you hearing about these tariffs?

[John McConnell]

Well, the calls I've been getting have a lot to do with support industry and what those small businesses are and what these tariffs are going to trickle down and do to their organizations. A lot of people don't realize that if, whether they're small manufacturing, whatever they are, where they get a lot of those supplies, a lot of the parts that they put together to build things typically are not all manufactured in the US So while they feel they're here and they're a manufacturer, they're getting pieces and parts in that are going to cost anywhere from, you know, 20% to over 100% more. So a lot of those employers now are starting to struggle with, you know, how do you start to handle that reality? I mean, you've got so much stuff on your shelf for a period of time until that back inventory starts to run out. And then how do you move forward from there? You know, raise your pricing. But what you just said, you know, is that this is going to be passed on in some form or fashion. Then how are we going to be able to absorb that in the workforce? At the same time, how can you run your business? If business slows down, you're having to pay more for what you're getting in, and then a lot of what it costs everyone every day to live keeps going up.

[Andy Beshear]

And we start the conversation this way because while the media talks a lot about big business, the backbone of America is small business. And there are more people employed by small businesses across this state and any other than will ever be employed by big business. So when you start making it that much harder for them, when you, when you make the costs that much greater, oftentimes layoffs are the only option.

[John Rabinowitz]

Yeah, listen, this is really not a red or blue issue. You and I at times don't see eye to eye on different issues.

[Andy Beshear]

That's true.

[John Rabinowitz]

I think I'm right. But who knows?

[Andy Beshear]

But rarely.

[John Rabinowitz]

Rarely. Okay. But it affects everyday people. As an owner of a few small businesses, we're seeing the impact daily. One of our businesses is a restaurant that imports goods from overseas, and it's not something that we can replace. We know that those goods are going, the prices are going to be raised, and as a result, we likely at some point are going to have to pass those expenses on to our patrons. But up to a certain level, there.

[Andy Beshear]

Was just a study on the Trump tariffs that suggested it could cost the average American family about $4,600 extra a year.

[John Rabinowitz]

I mean, think what that means, that that could be a deductible for insurance.

[Andy Beshear]

That's your entire deductible. If you have private health insurance, it.

[John Rabinowitz]

Could be family vacations, many months of.

[Andy Beshear]

Rent, it's groceries for a significant number of months. I mean, that's not just hitting the family budget, it's blowing a hole in it. And I think about this last election, and I think that our current president is the president, because the last group of voters who hadn't decided thought he'd make paying bills at the end of the month a little bit easier. How do you think they're feeling now?

[John McConnell]

Well, I can go back to my early years in my career, and it was working a lot with the senior market. And I can think back and probably one of the most rewarding times in my career by far was helping people. And when they would come in over 65, helping them save some money, whether that was 20, 30 or even if it got to $100 a month, it's a big deal. It was a big deal. I mean, to the point that at that time they would have vegetables brought in, the next day, I would show up. So when you start talking about 4700 more per year, and that's not going to be based on your age, that's just how much more it's going to cost to live. So I remember even I'll just say, well, just say over 20 years ago, I won't go how, how long ago that was. But things have not gotten less expensive since then. And what that's going to impact a lot of that senior market, what that's going to do to them.

[John Rabinowitz]

And Andy, as you expect, would expect, I know a lot of Trump supporters and what I would tell you is that they're frustrated by the lack of consistency there. There are people that had understood Trump's elected, understood there are going to be tariffs planned for tariffs and budgeting, but didn't plan for how large the tariffs would be, don't know what the tariffs will be day to day. It affects all sorts of business decisions that small businesses and large businesses have to deal with daily.

[Andy Beshear]

And I think some of this gets confusing for folks if they're watching the media which keeps trying to say, well, can't tariffs be good? Well, the reality is this isn't theoretical about tariffs. This is the President's tariff plan that every time it's come out has been bad.

[John McConnell]

Yeah. And I even have some mid sized companies who do import a lot and a lot of that comes from China and there's no time for them to change to do any manufacturing here.

[Andy Beshear]

I think that's so important. You know, it takes two to five years to build a factory and depending on how sophisticated it is, it can take longer than that or at least on the long end of that range. So the idea that we can use this punitive measure, we are going to make things cost more so that people will build things in the United States means we're going to go through three, five or more years than that of pain. That $4,700 a year times three to four. I mean, how many people don't make it?

[John McConnell]

Well, and that pain is going to come down to, you know, if, if you're on the front end, if you have containers in the water right now and you know you're going to be facing 10, 15, 20, $30 million worth of tariffs and it's happening and you have to have a material to put out and keep employees or, or if.

[Andy Beshear]

Or if you're a young couple with a kid on the way. I was just reading about the costs of different things, whether you need a specific formula for your child, whether it's the car seats or others, things that are not made in the United States right now, it's not going to be next month. And so to think about taking all of us back to that time, you have three kids, you have two, I have two. And Winnie, when I think back, it was always straining budgets at that point. And we did it. We loved them and we wanted them to have the very best. But I can't imagine adding that extra stress as a young couple that now with this joy coming your way, things are going to be that much more expensive every day.

[John Rabinowitz]

Things will be changing every day. The other thing is, and I know we've talked about this in the past, if you're focused on one country, that's one thing. But almost globally going after everyone and then hoping you can negotiate with each one does not at times seem like a model that could work.

[Andy Beshear]

I worry about that. I worry what it's going to do to not just global stability, but global security. The idea that we pushed South Korea and Japan into making a deal with China is really concerning. A lot of our global security has been based on our relationship with Europe and what's going on right now there. I mean, you even look at how our federal government is kicking Canada. Talk about a country that's been loyal and a great friend of the United States going into virtually every international conflict with us, whether we were right or not. I mean, kicking Canada, where so many states, it's their number one trading partner, I think to most Americans, just doesn't make sense.

[John Rabinowitz]

I agree. And speaking of Canada, one thing I was going to ask you is, I mean, Canada obviously is a large importer of our bourbon here in Kentucky. Are you seeing or hearing anything from the bourbon industry about how it's affecting them?

[Andy Beshear]

Yes, absolutely. And it's not just that there are reciprocal tariffs from Canada making bourbon more expensive in Canada and thus maybe fewer people buying it. It's that they are so hurt by the attacks, so hurt by this 51st state rhetoric, which, by the way, they would have more electoral votes than any other state. I'm not sure people have thought that through, but they're so hurt by this disrespect of their own nationality that they're pulling bourbon and other American products off the shelf entirely. And I worry about the repercussions and how long they could last about damaging that relationship and so many others.

[John McConnell]

Because it's one thing to try to overcome the tariffs, continue to make your product and put it across whatever lines we have to in various countries, but if you send it to those countries and all of a sudden they're just not going to put it on the shelves, your price doesn't matter because you can't sell it.

[Andy Beshear]

And I guess I'd kind of close on the conversation going back to something John said, that this isn't a red or a blue, a D or an R. And that's what we've tried to talk about in this podcast, right? Not things being put into a box, but real discussion and real analysis. You know, both Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul have come out saying not just tariffs are bad, but that fact that they are a tax on the American people without question.

[John Rabinowitz]

Another thing that I thought we should discuss is that just a few days ago, Governor Shapiro was his family were affected by an arson attack. And it got me thinking how challenging it must be being in your position, what you must have to deal with. And on a very small level, you know we get with Morgan and Morgan, I get crazy letters, right. And crazy emails. I can't imagine what you must have to deal with day in and day out. So I thought it'd be a good time for us to kind of talk about it and hear from you, how you deal with those situations, what situations you're comfortable with talking about. But I think it's important that people know what, what you go through every day.

[Andy Beshear]

So Josh is a friend of mine, gotten to know his wife and let me tell you, Josh Shapiro loves family. And so what they've got to be going through right now is awful. They've got to feel violated. They're in one of the most secure locations that you can be in, and yet somebody still tries to cause them harm. And I can tell you, having been through some tough situations, you both feel that way. You're angry, you're both right. Somebody would try to do this to your family. But then you're also thinking about everybody else out there that don't have a security detail that are impacted by an attack or a violent crime. And so you feel both like a target and you feel blessed at the same time. And it's a real mix of emotions. During the pandemic, we had a number of threats and still have some. There was the day that an armed group of so called militia went through all the barriers in the front of the Kentucky Governor's mansion and pounded on the doors and the windows. My kids played on the other side of those and demanded that I come out. Well, we weren't there. We had a good idea that this was coming and I wasn't going to put my family in any dangerous situation. And so when they realized I wasn't home, they went to another part of the Capitol and they hung me in effigy. Now I'm surrounded by incredible individuals who always keep me safe. But it's that push towards political violence that is not only so wrong, but could be so damaging to our country. And that's everything from the assassination attempt against President Trump, it is wrong. To the assassination planning on Gretchen Whitmer, another good friend, good person who just tries to do the best for her state. It was the candidate, now Mayor of Louisville, Craig Greenberg, who had somebody walk into his office, look at him and start shooting. And thankfully, everybody is still with us today. I don't know if we're seeing more of it, but I hope it's not being normalized.

[John Rabinowitz]

Yeah, it seems like it's. We have the extremes on both sides and most people, I think, are in the middle. But to hear of these things happening and to always have to be on guard must be a real challenge.

[Andy Beshear]

But it's one of those things that there should never be a side to right. Violence is wrong, period, you know, end sentence and that. And that political violence is just as wrong as any other type of violence. And I worry what it does to people who think about or dream about running for office. A lot of good people out there that could do a really good job. And do they say, I don't know, this isn't for me. I mean, I've been evacuated from a number of buildings, had to go out many different ways from. From the same place. I've had threats coming in that people have a sniper rifle and are waiting for me to walk out of something. But. But I'm blessed to have some incredible security that's always there looking out for. For me.

[John Rabinowitz]

And. Go ahead.

[John McConnell]

Well, when you look at this, I mean, this is going to be another one that's not really a blue or a red issue. This is coming from all sides. And, you know, you talked about the experiences you had at your house whenever people tried to come to those doors.

[Andy Beshear]

But I can't imagine somebody lighting the place that I live on fire. And I don't want to. I don't want to equate anything that. That my family may have been through with what this one just went through. So I. I feel for them. I really feel for them. And he's a good governor and they're a great family, and I hope it just pushes them to continue to do all that good work. And while we're still waiting for the facts to come in, it's a possibility that this was motivated by hate, not just disagreement with Josh Shapiro. And again, violence is wrong, especially when motivated by that type of hate.

[John Rabinowitz]

In your role, is it something you think about daily or is it something you just have accepted that it's potentially like, part of the job, that you got good people around you and you go on and you do the best you can every day.

[Andy Beshear]

I trust the people around me. I know them. They love my kids. They love my family. They know that if I'm at an event and there's a concern that I'm not leaving until Brittany and the kids are out, too. And once everybody adapts to that, then you know that you're safe where you are. And so I just say, it's like I said in the beginning, it's that you feel sometimes targeted, but you also feel really blessed because, again, most people out There, if faced with an act of violence, wouldn't be in the same spot, wouldn't have people knocking on that door, wouldn't have you have somebody taking you out a different way just to make sure that you're safe.

[John Rabinowitz]

Is it something you thought about when you were considering running for ag? I mean, you were in a different situation because you lived that life as a high school kid.

[Andy Beshear]

It was different. We had a couple of people that wanted to come to the office that were charged with different things. We had a triple murder that we solved. But before we made the arrest, that individual was actually within a couple blocks from me, not knowing whether he knew we were investigating him. So while there were some of those times, that's different than a lot of things we've seen, especially in the last four to five years.

[John Rabinowitz]

Well, thank God. It seems like Josh and his family.

[Andy Beshear]

Are okay, and that's the most important thing. It is that time again when one of my kids, this time, Lila beshear, teaches John McConnell, John Rabinowitz, and I a little bit of lingo. Once again, worried this is going to turn into the how lame is dad? Segment. Lila, welcome to the podcast.

[Lila Beshear]

Thank you. Okay, so our word, or should I say phrase for the day, is do it for the plot.

[Andy Beshear]

Do it for the plot?

[Lila Beshear]

Yes, do it for the plot. You look very confused over there.

[John Rabinowitz]

I'm telling you. I can't even figure out where we're going to go with this.

[Andy Beshear]

Oh, so if I had to guess, what do it for the plot meant is that we're doing something for a story. The story. Kind of my story.

[Lila Beshear]

Yeah.

[Andy Beshear]

Or is it yours?

[Lila Beshear]

No, it's yours.

[Andy Beshear]

Okay, tell us how you'd use do it for the plot in a sentence.

[Lila Beshear]

So, like, if somebody was a little nervous to do something or, like, didn't think they'd, like, make it to a team, I guess, in a way you could say, oh, just do it for the plot.

[Andy Beshear]

So is doing it for the plot a good thing or a bad thing?

[Lila Beshear]

It's a very good thing.

[John Rabinowitz]

Sounds encouraging.

[Lila Beshear]

Yeah, it's like, think more about the adventure of it than the outcome.

[John McConnell]

It feels like if I have a bad idea, and I'm like, hey, hey, we should try this. And your dad looks and goes, no, And I'm going to say, do it for the plot. Is that gonna work?

[Lila Beshear]

Yes.

[Andy Beshear]

That is so, like, Thelma and Louise grabbed hands and started driving that. That. That convertible. They were doing it for the plot. Lyla, you have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

[Nicole Avant]

No.

[Andy Beshear]

The Movie made. Brad Pitt. Did you just say who?

[Lila Beshear]

I said, no clue.

[Andy Beshear]

So how. How much would it hurt your ears if we're sitting around and you hear me turn to John and say, john, don't worry about it. Do it for the plot.

[John Rabinowitz]

That's what I think when I'm thinking about it. Like, you're going to tell me, suck it up. Just do it for the plot. It's going to be encouraging. The journey will be the reward, I guess. But somehow, I guess, John, we say this all the time. What could go wrong?

[Andy Beshear]

It sounds like everything. It sounds like I'm encouraging you to do something that you're going to fail.

[Lila Beshear]

At, and that is okay. We need to fail sometimes.

[Andy Beshear]

And so it's just like, go for it. Yeah, don't worry about it. It's just a part of the bigger narrative.

[Lila Beshear]

Oh, yes.

[John Rabinowitz]

Listen. You know, the good news for us is that when we come up with these great ideas, John, and our wives tell us how bad they are, we're just gonna say, we're doing it for the plot.

[Andy Beshear]

Oh, my goodness.

[John McConnell]

Yes.

[Andy Beshear]

That is brilliant. I mean, listen, because how many times a day do you hear, honey, I wouldn't do that?

[John Rabinowitz]

Is that a good decision? I'm doing it for the plot.

[John McConnell]

Yeah, that's gonna be the go to from this point forward. I like it.

[Andy Beshear]

So, Lyla, do you think in everyday life, when I get a question and they say, well, what do you think are the pluses or the minuses, that I should just look at them and say, oh, I'm doing it for the plot? No, don't think that worked out well. Don't think that'd be received very well. No, you heard it here. So what. What other lingo is doing it for the plot? Like, associated with. If, like, if somebody says, oh, you just do it for the plot, does somebody else turn and say, oh, that's skippity? No, not at all.

[Lila Beshear]

I feel like it's normally used by itself.

[Andy Beshear]

Well, let me ask you this. If you're doing it for the plot, do you have Riz? Oh, God, not necessarily.

[John McConnell]

They just said Riz.

[Lila Beshear]

I don't know how to answer that.

[John Rabinowitz]

And there's definitely no emoji for dude for the plot, is there?

[Andy Beshear]

Would you.

[John McConnell]

Oh, no, the little one that does like that.

[Andy Beshear]

Would you ever, like, if you're gonna try wearing something totally new and different, but you think it might be a risk, can that be doing it for the plot?

[Lila Beshear]

Sure.

[Andy Beshear]

Like, if it doesn't turn out to be drip instead, if it's a fail. What is the opposite of drip?

[Lila Beshear]

Don't ask me questions.

[John Rabinowitz]

Well, listen, we did it for the plot.

[Andy Beshear]

We did it for the plot.

[John McConnell]

We did it for the plot.

[Andy Beshear]

And that's a wrap on episode two. I hope you enjoyed it because episode three is gonna be fire. But if you think about what we did today, we took a lot of heavy issues, like grief from the loss of a friend or a parent of these attacks on diversity, on public safety in a world where so many don't feel safe, and we were able to talk them out. Just think about what our world and what our country could be like if we could all come together and do the same. I'm looking forward to those future episodes and on each one, we're looking at bringing you that special interesting guest, even if you haven't heard of them before. And then we'll talk about the issues of the week before the week to come. And as always, I'm going to invite family or friends on and, well, they'll probably make fun of me, but I hope that we'll all laugh doing it. See you next time. Thanks for tuning in. Be sure to subscribe at. Andy Beshear Podcast on all major social media platforms forms.