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- [00:00]
Ben Carlson
Today's Animal Spirits Talk. Your book is brought to you by FM Investments. Go to us TreasuryETF.com to learn more about their whole suite of products. But today we are talking about our bill brand new ultra short US tips fund US treasure ETF.com to learn more. Welcome to Animal Spirits, a show about.
- [00:19]
Michael Batnik
Markets, life and investing. Join Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson as.
- [00:23]
Ben Carlson
They talk about what they're reading, writing and watching.
- [00:26]
Michael Batnik
All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Rithol's Wealth Management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for any investment decisions. Clients of Ritholtz Wealth Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.
- [00:47]
Ben Carlson
Welcome to Animal Spirits with Michael and Ben. Michael, we got a lot of angry ish emails in 2022, 2023 from people who said hey listen, I was worried about inflation. I put my money in tips. What happened? Explain it to me. Because all they see is inflation prot. And that's all you need to hear because. So is it false advertising or what.
- [01:07]
Alex Morris
Was it bad branding?
- [01:09]
Ben Carlson
A little bit. So what happened is a lot of people invested in longer duration tips because a lot of those ETFs are longer duration. And when rates go up, guess what happens. Those things act like bonds, not inflation protection. They didn't fall nearly as much as bonds, but they fell way more than people expected with the inflation environment that we lived in.
- [01:29]
Alex Morris
Yeah. So today we talk about a product that gives you ability to really invest in cpi. It's. It's. It's ultra short Treasuries, treasury inflation. Jeez. Ultra short tips. Let's just. Sorry about that. And this is a long line of themes that we've been discussing here, like things that investors can get access to that previously would have been impossible to access inside of an ETF wrapper. It really is the greatest unlock, the greatest innovation in, I don't know, financial history is a long time. But was it. Who said there's two. There's been two great inventions in financial markets over the last 50 years, the ATM machine and the ETF. Am I making that up?
- [02:11]
Ben Carlson
Somebody said that might have been Munger. Really sound about right? Yeah, something like that could have been sale. Yeah, you're right. So. So now. So now you have the ability to just strip away all the other bond stuff and kind of invest in cpi, which is if you want the. That TIPS inflation exposure hedge that this is it right. With you're taking the bond piece away because if you're investing in T bills or short term Treasuries, you're not getting, you don't have as much interest rate risk. And that's what this is. It's taking away the interest rate component. Very interesting. So we talked to Alex Morris, who's the CEO at FM Investments. We've talked to him a number of times about the bond market, easily one of the most interesting people who talks about fixed income that we have. And then we talked to Mark Spindel, who is the senior advisor and an expert in the tip space. So here's our talk with Alex and Mark.
- [03:02]
Alex Morris
Mark and Alex, welcome to the show.
- [03:04]
Michael Batnik
Thanks for having us.
- [03:05]
Mark Spindel
Thanks for having us. Great to be here.
- [03:07]
Alex Morris
All right, so we're talking Tips Today in 2022, a horrendous year for bonds, but a year when inflation skyrocketed and the thing that bond investors or some bond investors were counting on for protection, the inflation component, got overwhelmed by the duration component. So before we get into where TIPS can fit into the portfolio and what you guys are doing, let's rewind the clock. Why didn't tips work in 2022?
- [03:37]
Mark Spindel
I think you nailed it, Michael, which, you know, people ignored the fact that real yields can go up too. And as they were investing, particularly in the retail space, in even modest duration funds, that yield rise cannibalized any uptick you had in your inflation accrual. Nothing more, nothing less. But I think when we thought about where TIPS failed, it was really just typical bond risk and even two to three year bonds, because real yields rose so much, the Fed tightening ultimately quite aggressively just cannibalized everything.
- [04:12]
Ben Carlson
Right. So TIPS acted like bonds, right?
- [04:15]
Mark Spindel
Yeah, they are bonds. Yes, that's a really good point.
- [04:18]
Michael Batnik
Most folks hear tips, and I know what those are, but I don't know that they really do. So it's probably worth just spending 15, 20 seconds on what is a TIPS issuance? Right. So first of all, it's a Treasury bond, full faith and credit of the United States government. It's issued, it's auctioned, usual process, just like that. The difference is it has this superpower that every month the government is going to increase the par value of the bond by what CPI is. And that's the important part. It's not that they're giving you more interest or anything else, actually increasing the value of the bond when it hits maturity. And that's something that bonds don't do. And that's what makes sense.
- [04:57]
Mark Spindel
It's not even at maturity. Your principal is just growing Every month by the cpi. And so when you put a coupon on it, it's on a bigger principle. But again, back to Michael's point. When yields go up, we know the principal declines, the value of the bond declines. And even though your principal's growing, if yields go up enough, it doesn't make up for the principal growth.
- [05:18]
Alex Morris
I wonder if this is like a branding problem where investors heard inflation protected securities and didn't hear the bond component.
- [05:28]
Mark Spindel
Maybe. I think there is a problem marking these things to market, that the inflation that hit was once in a generational storm. But I think there is a way to get that inflation protection without taking the real rate risk. And this wasn't just a TIPS problem. Right. People have thought of real estate as a typical inflation hedge. The value of the asset declined. Commodities typically do well in inflation environments. 2022 was a very bad year for commodity markets. So again, all sorts of inflation hedges have other factors. In the TIPS case, to your point, the branding ignored the fact that these are bonds. Ben's question. And as we were thinking about the problems in 2022 of inflation hedges, we wanted to get the CPI part, the part that expands the principle and strip out everything else. And you can only do that with a very short duration. TIPS fund institutions have been able to access that they can buy the individual securities. We wanted to wrap something in an easy ETF that anyone could access.
- [06:30]
Ben Carlson
I think it's also important, before we get into your solution, to understand what the yield situation was like. Because I remember early on in my career, a fixed income person told me, listen, when real yields get to 2 or 3%, then you want to really double down on tips. But coming out of the 2020 pandemic, real yields were very low. So, like, what wasn't? Weren't the yields part of the problem too, the starting point that people were investing in?
- [06:54]
Mark Spindel
Absolutely. And it wasn't just the pandemic. You know, when you came out of the financial crisis and the Fed had pushed real rates below zero, that coupon was de minimis. We'll go back and sort of look at how TIPS performed even with a low coupon. But in this case, you were not earning a lot on the interest part either. Again, in the kind of factor of waiting, that wasn't the big problem. It was that real yields went up so much when the Fed tightened. But first time, long time, you're actually earning some positive yield from the real coupon. So I think you sort of touch on an important point nowadays.
- [07:31]
Alex Morris
Alex, when we were in Chicago, you Teased the idea that this product was coming. I'm guessing this idea, as Mark just alluded to, was born in 2022. So fast forwarding to today, what is the product? What are we investing in?
- [07:48]
Michael Batnik
Yeah, so our bill, our bil. You know, just like we've talked here a few times before about T bill sits in that stablemate of how do you access these treasury products? We talked about it. We'd been thinking about inflation products for a long time, but it took us teaming up with Mark and team, super smart folks who really know how this works, to get to something that we think is simple enough to be well invested in. And it's pretty simple. As opposed to buying one bond, I get to tell you we're going to buy four bonds, sometimes five, maybe six, once in a generation. But as opposed to doing what Ben and you pointed out, that sort of longer duration risk, we buy only tips that are going to mature within a year. And that essentially strips out that interest rate duration risk that injured investors. Even in the super short tips products that were on the market, they had a duration or two or three that didn't really matter until all of a sudden rates went up as dramatically and as quickly as they did when all of a sudden it mattered a great deal. And so this does, as we've been talking about here. How do you access the TIPS market without any of that interest rate or a much diminished impact of that interest rate component?
- [08:51]
Ben Carlson
So the hope is that all that's left is the, the inflation protection. Right. Like you get, you obviously get some sort of yield there and the, the yield will be determined by the interest rate market and what the Fed sets, I guess based on short term rates. But you're hoping to just leave. This is the inflation hedge component.
- [09:07]
Mark Spindel
It's not even hope. I mean the, the sort of baked into the, the contract with the US Government is this principal appreciation. And I think, Ben, you said it. Well, it's just stripping everything else out. There is a modest coupon. This is the kind of product that one could reliably compare to T bills. The problem with T bills is if inflation goes up, the T bill doesn't adjust very quickly. Maybe ultimately your coupon will go up when the Fed, excuse me, when the treasury issues a sort of new weekly bill. But we found in the past they're very slow by owning these very short dated tips, none of which are newly issued. So we have to go out and find a 4 year old bond or a 9 year old bond or even a 29 year old bond. That's got this very short duration sort of loses that real rate risk, Michael, that we talked about. And all that's left is the principal appreciation as inflation goes up. And I think it was the sort of product of 2022, that first time longtime generational spike in inflation that has left investors even two and three years later, for all sorts of reasons, extremely anxious about inflation. Whether it's tariffs, whether it's debt, whether it's egg prices, whether it's just the lingering scar that they never had to worry about for 30, 40 years. Inflation anxiety has really not been higher in any of our lifetimes.
- [10:28]
Alex Morris
So for people that are investing in this, they're not just getting cpi because if that's the case, this would be a zero real return. What exactly are they getting and what determines the path of what they get?
- [10:37]
Mark Spindel
They're getting that modest coupon and they're getting CPI appreciation. And certainly over the last decade, as we've kind of gone back and kind of looked at the history of this kind of short duration TIPS product, they've actually outperformed T bills. So they're getting everything that a nominal money market investment, T bills, money market funds would give them with a little bit of coupon in a bond that actually trades a little cheap. So just because of the complications that people have had buying tips, sort of investing in these older securities, we're actually able to acquire the bonds a little bit more cheaply than one could buy a T bill. All of which combines to a sort of high performing money market fund.
- [11:21]
Ben Carlson
We've heard from people in the last couple of years who said, I'm done with this product as an asset class. Tips fool me once, shame on me. But so this is the answer for those people, right? Like the people who invested in longer duration tips and got killed in 2022. This is what they're looking for.
- [11:37]
Michael Batnik
Exactly. To use your phrase, they have a sort of identity and branding crisis and we're here to fix it. This is when people buy tips. Because in all fairness, in 2021, if you were prescient and you went out and you bought your major inflation hedges, gold collapsed on you. As Mark said, commodities didn't do very well, equities had their own highly volatile path and 22 wasn't a great year for them or, or commodities tips. Actually short duration tips, ultra short tips like this did very well, thank you. They were just that 45 degree angle up and to the right. When folks bought longer dated tips, even anything more than a year, they lost money, they lost Real principle.
- [12:13]
Mark Spindel
You know, Ben, I think you said something that I might push back on a little bit, which is I think people do want to preserve purchasing power. You know, there's nothing exciting about this. It's sort of dull white paint. But it's the one investment portfolio that we could design that absolutely will preserve your purchasing power. And a lot of people own cash. You know, there's 7 to 8 trillion dollars of money market funds, there's 18 trillion dollars of bank deposits, all of which suffers if your purchasing power declines if CPI rises.
- [12:46]
Alex Morris
So do you view this as a better money market fund or is. Yeah.
- [12:50]
Michael Batnik
Okay, so if you think about a client, an advisor, yourself, you want to do something in a year from now and you want to hold onto that cash, do you want to have the same amount of dollars or do you want to be able to buy the same amount of things in the future? And most folks, the answer they say is the first, but they really mean the second. They want to make sure they can buy a house, buy a car, pay for something that has inflation baked into it every day. Because the companies that sell those products are trying to pass on inflationary pressures all the time. Money sitting in a bank account, not earning much or anything, certainly earning below inflation pays that price. And we've done the math out that shows a really interesting stat. When you look at the inflation surge from 21 onwards, it took about 20 months, so say just a little under two years for the nominal T bill rates to start to come up and actually return to you what you'd expect in line with inflation or greater. The question though isn't how long did it take? That's a question of Fed slowness and policy and other things that happen here in Washington. It's how much purchasing power did I lose while I waited for them to come to the rescue by bringing up rates? And the answer is about 14%. It's 14% of your money. That poof lost the ability to buy things that you're never going to get back. There's no catch up.
- [14:03]
Mark Spindel
If there was an aha moment for us, it was that 14 percentage points of purchasing power, CPI rose 14% before the coupon on your nominal T bills began to rise. Tips never had that, when you put it that way.
- [14:19]
Michael Batnik
The tips keep up with that market. They don't always get you 100% the first day, but they do have that catch up feature because the CPI gets reset over time. So you're getting your money back. And that's sort of the powerful thing is if you bought a long dated tip. If you just went out and bought a 5 year or 10 year tip and you put it in your portfolio and you forgot about it, in five or 10 years it'll do exactly what it says on the tin. The problem is you're going to have phantom income. They're complicated, as folks said. They're fed up with dealing with these things.
- [14:47]
Mark Spindel
You're going to have to pay tax on that phantom income.
- [14:50]
Alex Morris
Could you explain that for people that might be unfamiliar with that phrase?
- [14:54]
Mark Spindel
The IRS treats this inflation accrual, this inflation appreciation, as ordinary income, even though you haven't actually received a coupon like you would in a nominal bond. So you owe tax at the end of the year on this inflation uptick. That's cumbersome for people. They might have to sell some bonds if they're a retail sort of non institutional investor. How do they go about selling those Treasuries? Do they have a Treasury Direct account? I mean, all sorts of awkward aspects to realizing the cash they need to meet their obligation with the irs. It's complicated and I think wrapping this in an ETF easy kind of way, which F and M F M have demonstrated through their benchmark series, just makes it a sort of easier way to enjoy that inflation appreciation. We're going to deliver that dividend every.
- [15:47]
Ben Carlson
Month to people, that phantom income. So if you have 100, your bonds trading at par at 100 and inflation is 5%, it goes from 100 to 105, that par value, but you're not actually receiving anything.
- [15:58]
Mark Spindel
Correct. Much better said. But you owe tax on that $5.
- [16:02]
Ben Carlson
So you mentioned that there is a minor, still a little bit of yield. You're getting help. Explain to us how the interplay between nominal bonds and nominal T bills, I guess, and how that impacts these shorter term tips. What's the relationship between nominal bonds and treasury protected?
- [16:19]
Mark Spindel
It's roughly one's expectation for what inflation will be. So the difference between the yield on a nominal bond and the yield on a TIPS should be compensated for the inflation expectation. If inflation is higher than that, you would think that the TIPS would outperform because they're growing. If we enter a disinflation or an unexpected deflationary world, then the nominal bonds should do better. We said the pandemic was a period where obviously these kinds of very short duration tips outperformed that nominal T bill weighted 14 percentage points. We actually went back before the pandemic and again inflation was expected to be very low, but it came out a little bit Higher than that. Not high, but just higher than people expected. You had that even with a very low real coupon. So the difference between nominal bonds and inflation indexed bonds is roughly one's expectation for inflation and we track that very closely.
- [17:19]
Ben Carlson
So the bond market is not always right.
- [17:22]
Mark Spindel
Well said.
- [17:23]
Michael Batnik
Well, you said it. I don't know if I'm ready to go that far. But to your point, Ben, these are complicated and this makes it easier. It's why ETFs were such a great invention for tips in general. It took this sort of complicated, hard to buy thing with bizarre tax treatments and made it simple. The problem was they gave you a lot of interest rate risk and which is duration by another. Another phrase that folks didn't realize they were getting until it was too late when they'd already lost money. And that's what we wanted to fix in our bill because we did want to give someone the simple what it says on the tin, I've got cash, I want to make sure that purchasing power is protected, give me some nominal return plus inflation protection. And that's what we did and that's what our bill does. And it's weird that it took a long time of thinking about inflation to figure out something that is admittedly so simple and dull. But I think it's that point that inflation is a complicated topic. And most of the solutions for inflation are either buy equities and don't look right, buy gold and don't care, or if you're a super sophisticated institution, they have swaptions and all of these other things. And a lot of other inflation products that folks have purchased have been disappointed because those more sophisticated elements tend to fail when you most need them. And a large institution has ways of hedging and dealing with other things, but individual investors, advisors don't have those capabilities or don't have time to manage to that. So we wanted something that you could buy and hold and not worry about.
- [18:54]
Mark Spindel
And you know, prior to the experience of 2022, I just don't think inflation was on anyone's radar screen. If anything, we were worried about disinflation. The Fed had to put out a new framework called into question some of their sort of political sort of independence. The debt issuance that we've talked about has been sky high. Now we're fighting tariffs which are clearly going to put some upward pressure on food prices, on energy prices. So, you know, a perfect storm of actual inflation and all sorts of events. I think the product did quite well. As I said prior to the pandemic there was certainly a market, a couple 200, $250 billion of these very short dated tips. But who was thinking they needed inflation protection? It was the opposite. You needed deflation protection and you sort of hoped the Fed would be able to deliver on its congressional mandate of keeping the price level intact when they were fighting against a sort of disinflationary environment.
- [19:49]
Alex Morris
Zooming out just to take a think about what's going on in the bond market. It's funny how quickly the narrative changes. In the beginning of January there was, oh, the economy is re accelerating and now there is massive uncertainty over tariffs and their economic impact. And so there's like this push pull of tariffs are going to be inflationary versus while growth is slowing. And so right now it seems like growth is slowing, is winning because bond interest rates are going lower. But it sounds like with our bill you don't really need to concern yourself with the path of interest rates or inflation because you know what you're getting.
- [20:23]
Mark Spindel
You definitely know what you're getting. And it is, I would say, the least risky investment one can make because it's very short duration and it preserves your purchasing power, I think in terms. So there's a timelessness to it for sure. I think the kind of safe harbor aspect of our bill is something we're sort of really focused on that people just haven't had access to. Are we expecting that people's entire portfolios are going to change? No. I think having some purchasing power that these very short dated tips can provide will allow people to continue to turn their attention to all sorts of other more interesting, ultimately high performing sort of assets, equities, real estate and, and so on. But I don't think we're divorced from the roller coaster in equity markets and interest rates. We're highly attuned to Ben's question about what inflation expectations are and how they're changing, why they're changing, what the course of the economy, the level of term and other interest rates will be, mortgage rates for example. And there's certainly when a risk off environment such as we're in these days happens, we think it just sort of accents the need for some kind of safe harbor.
- [21:30]
Michael Batnik
We've all said that. Everyone said the T word but, but me so. Well, if it's all right to dive into tariffs for a second. I think there's been a lot of misconception and a lot of things floating around. But you know, the sort of simple since guide that, that I need to do this is when you hear tariff, you need to think inflation. When you hear tariffs are delayed or coming sooner, you have to think more inflation. And when someone tells you oh tariffs won't cause inflation, you have to think Japan or deep recession. Because there is a way to reconcile all of those. And that last outcome is not an outcome we're really shooting for. But we know all of the action of tariffs in the short run are going to be inflationary. Whether it's because if tariff happened or worse as we're seeing now, the fear that a tariff may happen or there's no certainty that it's gonna happen. So we're gonna hoard goods and services today, causing their price short terms to go up, which makes this a self fulfilling prophecy. All of it really comes back to the same concept. If you've heard this conversation and you've had one of those thoughts recently, our bill is the kind of solution that you were looking for that you didn't have until now because your other options had duration or had other risks to them that were difficult to understand hedge if not impossible to eliminate. And our bill does that. We were talking in Chicago in teasing the notion of this, what took so took us so long to get it to market was how could we do it simply and repeatably. So Mark and I could talk to you guys today and tell you it's actually going to do this thing without us having to say oh, we're going to come back in three months and say sorry, we were wrong.
- [23:02]
Alex Morris
It's actually what were some of the complexities? It sounds pretty straightforward but obviously I'm oversimplifying it. What caused the not delay? What took so long?
- [23:10]
Ben Carlson
Yeah.
- [23:10]
Michael Batnik
So on the one hand there are a lot of very interesting. It's sort of like when we talk about T Bill or U2 or U10, there's many more academically interesting ways that folks have tackled this problem is how can you achieve some of those outcomes in as simple a way as possible? And most of the folks who spent their time thinking about tips dealing with inflation just are, are trained and they're attuned by nature to go to those more complicated situations. So it's how do you actually get back to basics and then ask okay, well getting back to basics, why has no one done this before? Like is this just been so simple that it's going to fail? And the answer is no it's not. It's just been part of the market that's complicated and attracts folks who think about longer term issues than short term inflation protection. So we had to go through that process, we went looking for an index to ask the question, who's out there? There was only one in fixed income, believe it or not. There was only one index that even tracked these bonds and it didn't track them fully. So we had to work with Bloomberg to create a version that actually was investable and meaningful and repeatable for investors. So it takes a while to go through that and you know, simple, done well is hard.
- [24:14]
Mark Spindel
Yeah. And I think practically speaking just making sure that we could acquire the bonds, you know, it is literally just a handful, three, four, five of these very old, five 1030 year bonds that have aged to the point where they, they fit within our universe. We know a lot of people own one to 30 year tips. And so you know, another attractive feature of having very short dated less than one year is they fall out of most people's benchmark and we can acquire them cheaply. Making sure that accounting understood operations, understood how to adjust the principal. These are kind of principal floating bonds and just making sure that it was easy and efficient in a way that would fit most registered advisors and individuals. We knew we were going to beat the Treasury Department, Treasury Direct and the sort of clunky system that the US government had set up to acquire these bonds had experienced a sort of massive inflow. But you had to wait 45 days. So just sort of making people feel comfortable in the ETF Easy wrapper. Brian Sack and I, who had dreamt up this idea. Brian ran the markets desk for the New York Fed. He's now chief economist and strategist at a major hedge fund, sort of working with Alex and FM's team. I think it was very timely because of the 2022 experience. But as we've said, we think there's $25 trillion of nominal money market and bank deposits that should have some allocation to preserve one's purchasing power.
- [25:43]
Ben Carlson
Are you saying that there aren't a lot of these securities available and you have to wait for like a 10 year tips bond to get where it only has a year.
- [25:51]
Mark Spindel
There's $250 billion of outstanding one year and under TIPS issuance and that will continue to grow. It was just making sure that we could find them and acquire them. We believe they're cheap, they, they do trade cheaply. But just building that infrastructure within FM which hadn't had any inflation products, there aren't any other ETFs we know that sort of have this continuous zero to one year window. But I think it's happened to land at a time as we've said where inflation anxiety is off the charts for all sectors.
- [26:25]
Ben Carlson
Alex, you mentioned the tariff thing and Scott Besant, the new Treasury Secretary last week said, well, these tariffs are transitory because it's just a one time lift in price. Right. We're going to go up by whatever the tariff amount is, pass along to consumers and then we move on from there. But as far as tips, investors are concerned, that's fine because you get the liftoff right with it. Right. If it is first of all in.
- [26:46]
Mark Spindel
Practice, it doesn't sound like it's one off. It sounds like it's sometimes on, sometimes off, sometimes getting bigger, sometimes getting smaller. All of which is just creating this kind of inflation and tariff uncertainty. Obviously the Treasury Secretary has some inside information that we don't, but we know it's making food prices higher, it will make Canadian energy prices higher because of the way we refine Canadian oil in the US And I take Scott's point. But for us, we want to capture that uptick in inflation. We want to preserve people's purchasing power. If we reach an environment where CPI quiets down, we haven't but again, we think we can acquire these bonds cheaply. The return experience prior to the pandemic was just fine. We outperformed T bills and that's really what we're gunning for.
- [27:39]
Alex Morris
Why would somebody use what would be a scenario where there's an advantage for money market funds over something like our bill?
- [27:46]
Michael Batnik
Money market funds have a superpower that we don't. Our bill doesn't. T bill doesn't and that's that it it stays stable at $1. Right. So if you like looking at it knowing that you're just going to see interest and you're just going to see more of something worth a dollar, that's great. There's a bunch of other reporting that comes along with money market funds, but practically money market funds are generally speaking more expensive. Right. When you actually look at the the total fee of owning it, they can own a much more diversified array of assets. So you don't know what they're going to own at any given day. Their income treatment tends to be worse almost across the board. But they are widely available. They do have sweep functions. There are some other practical conveniences to them. You know, the same token would same question could be asked of why, why bank account as opposed to putting all your money in t bill. And we've yet to figure out how to make our bill available to you at an atm, but if we could, we would do that. My compliance Officer probably very worried about us saying that. But practically from a purchasing power protection standpoint, those other items just don't have it. They have these other practicalities that may be convenient. But when you're thinking about a massive one time reset in prices, I think those pale in comparison to owning what you own.
- [28:55]
Mark Spindel
You know, advisors tell their, their clients maybe have three to six months of cash to cover your purchasing expenses, your food, your rent, perhaps gasoline. And typically that's been held in a money market or cash type product which as we've said doesn't preserve your purchasing power. We're not expecting a huge uptick in inflation, but inflation expectations have fallen. They're sort of round two, two and a quarter. If people are nervous that they need to fill up their tank, they need to meet a potential rent increase, perhaps they're making a lot of omelets and they're buying a lot of eggs. We think having some exposure to real bill RBIL just at least protects their purchasing power in the way that I think people mean when they say hold some cash. We've spoken to real estate developers, we've spoken to property and casualty insurers, sort of medium, kind of small institutions. They've all said they want some way to at least preserve a portion of their purchasing power in an allocation to typical cash. And our bill, you obviously can't perfectly.
- [29:53]
Ben Carlson
You can't make any guarantees. But wouldn't we expect, because these are so short term that you just wouldn't see a lot of downside volatility basically ever for this product.
- [30:00]
Mark Spindel
We don't, I mean it, it would not be out of the question to see a complete collapse in energy prices in a short period of time. We've seen oil collapse even to zero or less. We've seen a fall in gasoline prices so that in any one month really drag down the cpi, the consumer price index, but over any sustained period of time, Ben, I think your point is that CPI is going to increase hopefully at a more moderate level than we've experienced. But we want to preserve the insurance that if not our bill delivers that purchasing power protection that we don't think anything else can.
- [30:37]
Ben Carlson
Right. So deflation is the biggest risk for a strategy like this then?
- [30:41]
Mark Spindel
If you call it that, yeah, unexpected. I would say the biggest risk is that we have a much lower than expected inflation environment which doesn't seem to be in the offing. I mean no one can rule it out, but we seem to be again sort of dealing with upside inflation anxiety.
- [30:57]
Alex Morris
I didn't think we can make it 30 minutes talking about real yields, particularly at the ultra short end. But you dorks, you did a great job.
- [31:03]
Mark Spindel
So thank you for coming on as advertised.
- [31:05]
Michael Batnik
Mike that's why you keep having us back is, you know, like, how can we find things that are boring that when we first started talking T Bill and whatnot was a couple hundred million dollars. It's over 7 billion across that series today.
- [31:18]
Alex Morris
Well, the proof is in the pudding, Alex, for people that want to learn more about your products, where do we send them?
- [31:23]
Michael Batnik
Us treasuryetf.com Perfect.
- [31:25]
Ben Carlson
Thanks, guys. Okay, thank you to Alex and Mark again. Check out us treasuryetf.com to learn more about our bill. Email us animalspiritscompoundnews.com.