Talk Your Book: How to be a Supercommunicator with Charles Duhigg

Summary

Animal Spirits Podcast: “Talk Your Book: How to be a Supercommunicator with Charles Duhigg” Summary

Released on March 15, 2025

In this engaging episode of the Animal Spirits Podcast, hosts Michael Batnick and Ben Carlson are joined by acclaimed journalist and Pulitzer Prize winner, Charles Duhigg, to delve into the art of communication. The conversation centers around Duhigg’s latest work, Super Communicators, exploring the nuances of effective communication, common pitfalls, and the profound impact of meaningful conversations on personal and professional relationships.

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Introduction to Super Communicators

The episode kicks off with Charles Duhigg introducing his book, Super Communicators. Duhigg candidly admits his own struggles with communication, setting the stage for a deep dive into the subject:

• Charles Duhigg [00:37]: “I am not a super communicator. I am not a natural speaker. It took me years to get comfortable speaking into a microphone.”

This humility opens the floor to discussions about how even those who perceive themselves as inadequate communicators can develop exceptional skills through deliberate practice and understanding.

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The Nature of Communication

Ben Carlson posits that effective communication is not an innate talent but a skill honed through experience and conscious effort. He emphasizes that individuals who excel in communication often have a history of overcoming their initial challenges:

• Ben Carlson [01:37]: “People who consistently are good at communication, it is not because they were born with the gift of the gab... they had trouble communicating at some point and had to think more deeply about how communication works.”

This perspective shifts the focus from natural ability to the importance of intentional practice and learning.

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Understanding Audience Mindset

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around identifying the audience's mindset during communication. Carlson introduces a framework based on neuroscience, categorizing conversations into three types:

1. Practical Conversations - Focused on problem-solving and planning.
2. Emotional Conversations - Centered on feelings and empathy.
3. Social Conversations - About relationships and social connections.

• Ben Carlson [02:00]: “Every conversation... tends to fall into one of three buckets: practical, emotional, and social.”

Understanding the type of conversation is crucial for tailoring the message effectively. Charles Duhigg shares his upcoming talk scenario, indicating a predominantly social mindset among his audience:

• Charles Duhigg [03:13]: “Social. Okay. We’re gonna be outside on the beach... advisors that are in a good mood... learning about our industry best practices.”

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Techniques for Effective Communication

The hosts and guest explore various techniques to enhance communication skills:

1. Acknowledge the Audience’s Identity: Tailor the message to resonate with the audience's core concerns.

   • Ben Carlson [04:31]: “Let me tell you about the things that speak to the concern you have right now.”

2. Deep Questions vs. Small Talk: Encouraging meaningful dialogue over superficial exchanges.

   • Charles Duhigg [12:54]: “A deep question is something that... asks me how I feel about my life.”

3. Active Listening and Looping for Understanding: Demonstrating genuine attention and comprehension.

   • Ben Carlson [16:49]: “Ask a question... repeat back in your own words what you heard... ask them if you got that right.”

4. Nonverbal Communication: Recognizing the importance of body language and other nonverbal cues.

   • Charles Duhigg [08:24]: “It can be nonverbal.”

The trio discusses practical applications of these techniques in various settings, from professional environments to personal relationships.

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The Role of Stories in Communication

A key highlight is the power of storytelling in making data and information more relatable and memorable:

• Michael Batnick [34:12]: “Stories stick way better than statistics.”

Duhigg shares memorable anecdotes from his works, such as the story of Paul O’Neill at Alcoa and a CIA officer’s transformative experience, illustrating how narratives can effectively convey complex ideas and foster emotional connections.

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Common Communication Pitfalls

The conversation addresses frequent mistakes people make in communication, especially in negotiations:

1. Not Asking Enough Questions:

   • Ben Carlson [18:52]: “The number one thing is not asking enough questions, particularly in a negotiation.”

2. Misunderstanding Conversational Goals:

   • Ben Carlson [19:15]: “Figure out what’s really going on in the background.”

3. Over-Communicating or Under-Communicating:

   • Ben Carlson [19:45]: “Prove that you’re listening... turn and repeat back what you heard.”

These insights emphasize the importance of clarity, empathy, and adaptability in communication.

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Impact of Technology on Communication

The episode also touches on the implications of artificial intelligence in the realm of financial advising and communication:

• Michael Batnick [16:07]: “Is AI going to be my financial advisor someday?”
• Ben Carlson [16:27]: “It would get 80 or 85% of the way there, but that last 15% matters a lot.”

While AI can handle practical aspects, the emotional and relational components of communication remain uniquely human, underscoring the irreplaceable value of personal interaction.

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Enhancing Personal Relationships Through Communication

Transitioning to personal life, Ben Carlson and Charles Duhigg discuss how professional communication skills can be applied to improve personal relationships:

• Ben Carlson [37:08]: “You have skills that you are using at work, and those skills are fungible. You can use those skills at home.”

This segment highlights the transferability of communication techniques across different areas of life, fostering deeper connections and understanding.

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Concluding Insights

In wrapping up, Charles Duhigg shares the profound findings from the Harvard Study of Adult Development, emphasizing the importance of close relationships in achieving long-term happiness and success:

• Ben Carlson [32:09]: “The only thing they found determines whether you’re happy, healthy, and successful at 65 is having at least a handful of close relationships.”

This underscores the episode's central theme: effective communication is foundational to meaningful and lasting relationships.

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Final Thoughts and Recommendations

The hosts encourage listeners to explore Charles Duhigg’s Super Communicators for a deeper understanding of the principles discussed. They also emphasize the practical benefits of applying these communication strategies in everyday interactions to enhance both personal and professional relationships.

• Charles Duhigg [39:27]: “You can find super communicators at Amazon or Audible or your local bookseller.”

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This episode of the Animal Spirits Podcast offers invaluable insights into the art of communication, blending theoretical frameworks with practical applications. Whether you're seeking to improve your professional interactions or deepen your personal relationships, the strategies discussed by Michael Batnick, Ben Carlson, and Charles Duhigg provide a comprehensive roadmap to becoming a supercommunicator.

Transcript

[Michael Batnik]

Welcome to Animal Spirits, a show about.

[Ben Carlson]

Markets, life and investing. Join Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson as.

[Michael Batnik]

They talk about what they're reading, writing and watching. All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben.

[Ben Carlson]

Are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Ritholtz Wealth Management. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

[Michael Batnik]

And should not be relied upon for any investment decisions.

[Ben Carlson]

Clients of Ritholtz Wealth Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.

[Charles Duhigg]

Mr. Charles Duhigg, welcome to the show.

[Ben Carlson]

Thanks for having me on. This is a treat.

[Charles Duhigg]

Ah, for us too. So for those who are not familiar with Charles's work, he is a journalist. He worked for the New York Times. He's an award winning journalist, won a Pulitzer Prize. No big deal. He was at the New Yorker magazine or still writes the New Yorker magazine, has wrote several books, the Science of Better, that's his newsletter, I should say. Excuse me, the Power of Habit Super Communicators, which we're going to talk about today. So Charles, all right, I am, I am not a super communicator. I am not a natural speaker. It took me years to get comfortable speaking into a microphone. And as proof that I'm not a super communicator, I'm going to open with a terrible question. Then we'll circle back onto the book and the motivation and what people should learn from that, from it, all that sort of stuff. So, okay, I am speaking on stage on next Monday and I'm going to be talking about exhibit, a new company that I'm launching. What are some, Give me some, some tips. What are some do's and don'ts? How do I communicate my ideas, my company to people in the audience?

[Ben Carlson]

Yeah. So it's a great question. And actually the fact that you don't feel like you're a super communicator maybe means that you are a super communicator. Because one of the things that we know is that we're all super communicators at one time or another. But people who consistently are good at communication, it is not because they are born with like the gift of the gab or where they're particularly charismatic or outgoing. It's often because they had trouble communicating at some point and they had to think a little bit more deeply about how communication works. Right. If you talk to the best communicators, they'll say things like, in high school I had trouble making friends so I had to really study how kids talk to each other. Or my parents got divorced and I had to be the Peacemaker between them. So the fact that you're thinking about communication, it actually makes you a much better communicator. But which raises this question, like, what should you do from that stage? Well, one of the things to try and figure out is why is the audience there? Like, what kind of mindset are they in? Because when we have a conversation, whether it's one to many or one on one, we tend to think we know what that discussion is about. Like, we're talking about pitching our new company or where to go on vacation next year. But actually, what the neuroscience tells us is that every con, every discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations. And those kinds of conversations, they tend to fall into one of three buckets. There's practical conversations where we're making plans or solving problems. There's emotional conversations where we're talking about how we feel. And I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. Then there's social conversations about how we relate to each other. So let me ask you, so when you're on that stage on Monday, what kind of mindset do you expect the audience to be in? Practical, emotional or social?

[Charles Duhigg]

Social.

[Ben Carlson]

Social. Okay.

[Michael Batnik]

We're gonna be outside on the beach when he's giving this con. When he's giving this talk.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah. So just to set the stage for you. So we're gonna be in South Beach. There's gonna be hopefully a couple hundred people in the audience. It might be a bit ambitious. There's gonna be a couple thousand people at the event. We'll see how many people attend my session. So these are gonna be people, advisors that are in a good mood. We're gonna be on the beach in Miami learning about our industry best practices and that sort of stuff.

[Ben Carlson]

So if it's a social conversation, the goal in a social conversation is to acknowledge who the other person is. Right. So if I come into a social conversation, I say, look, I'm the guy who's really, really good at managing money. This is the identity that's really important to me. I. I don't take too many risks. I'm safe. But I'm still. I'm looking for the highest yield that I can. So the more that we acknowledge that and we say, I see you, the more that you're on the stage and you say, look, I know you in the audience. Like, this is the thing that's important to you. Let me tell you. I'm not going to tell you all about my ratios and my X and Y and Z. I'M going to tell you about the things that speak to the concern you have right now, which is you are an advisor who manages risk and reward, and you're definitely managing that risk harder, right? Because you're, you're working with, you know, wealthy individuals. You're not doing institutional. It's really about, you know, preservation rather than growth. Like, I'm going to create the portfolio that speaks to you and your concern.

[Charles Duhigg]

Actually, Charles, sorry, I should have given you this. And I'm a very bad communicator. I'm even a worse listener, which your, your book was, was good at pointing out. I know, I know that about myself. Well, I should have led with this. The tool exhibit A is a communication tool for advisors that.

[Ben Carlson]

Even better.

[Charles Duhigg]

It's, it's, it's. We're, we're white labeling a piece of software where advisors can use our charts to communicate visually with their clients.

[Ben Carlson]

That's great. So it, that's an even better conversation because now instead of talking about what the mindset the audience is in, let's talk about the clients of that audience. Right? When you're having a conversation with your LPs, with your clients, is it a practical conversation or is it an emotional conversation? And the thing is, when we're talking about money, oftentimes it disguises itself as a practical conversation, but it's actually an emotional conversation, right? It's actually a conversation about, do I have enough for retirement? Am I being smart enough? Am I making the right choices? What's my legacy going to be? And so when it comes to a product like this, like, not only can I send you like an information rich graphic, but also I can show you how to pose this in a way that speaks to the emotional anxieties or pleasures that that client is looking for. And that's where we end up hitting them, right? That's where we have the. I can turn to a thousand different products, a thousand different firms that can give me yield, but the one that understands me, the one that speaks to my anxieties, that's the one I stick with.

[Michael Batnik]

So I like Michael's whole thing about how he's not a natural communicator. I'm the same way. And I think it's interesting.

[Charles Duhigg]

I'm way better than you.

[Michael Batnik]

Well, we, we started a podcast together. And so we've been doing this almost eight years now. And when we first started it, we both realized this medium, you can't just hit the record button and go. It, it was a kind of thing where, like, we didn't have it at first, and we needed to work on it. And it, it's almost like a muscle that can get stronger. So your, your initial thing about people who have trouble at first, they become the better communicators. But how many people do you think are actually naturals at this? Is there a percentage of the population or do you think that the people that we think are naturals actually have just worked at it a lot more than other people?

[Ben Carlson]

Yeah, that's exactly it. There are no naturals. We know this from, from research after research. There are no naturals at communication or, or better naturals. We're all naturals at communication because our brains have evolved to, to make us pro social creatures. But nobody's born better at this or worse than this. It's really about practice, building that muscle, thinking about it. Right. And so one of the really interesting things is that my guess is if I listen to your guys's early shows, compared to now, there's a bunch of stuff that you're doing that you could actually tell me why you're doing it. You could say, I made it. I made a decision a couple months in. I was going to start doing X, I was going to start doing Y. And it's that thinking about communication that makes us better at communicators. Now the other thing I'll say is, well, let me ask you guys a question. If you were having a bad day and you came home and you wanted to call someone who you know would just make you feel better, do you know who you would call? Like, does that person pop into your mind?

[Charles Duhigg]

Yes.

[Ben Carlson]

Yeah. Okay, so who, who, who is it for you guys? Like, like brother, wife?

[Charles Duhigg]

It'll be somebody I work with.

[Ben Carlson]

Okay. Okay. So for you, that person is a super communicator, and you're a super communicator. Back to them. You know what? Right. The questions to ask them, you know, when they need like a bit of tough love and when they need an encouraging word, you know, how to align with them. And what's interesting is that we all are super communicators with some people in our lives. The difference is that consistent super communicators realize that what you're using with your friend is just a set of skills. And once we identify them as a set of skills, you can use them with anyone. You can use them with strangers, you can use them with clients, you can use them with co workers. You can create that same sense of connection that you have with your coworker, the friend that you call with anyone. If you understand what the skills are to use.

[Charles Duhigg]

So that's interesting because. So I guess being a super communicator is not necessarily about who's the most articulate, who speaks without the most ums. It's about it can be nonverbal.

[Ben Carlson]

Yeah, absolutely. It can be non verbal. Not only that, but if you look at the. Think of the best conversations you've ever had. If I looked at a transcript of those conversations, they would look like a mess. Right? It's people interrupting each other. It's an idea starts and you never finish it. It's not about saying something pretty. It's about what's known within neuroscience as neural entrainment. Getting my brain to look like your brain at the same moment. Because when that happens, we trust each other more, we like each other more, and we feel connected to each other.

[Michael Batnik]

How does this fit with texting? Because I feel like once a week my wife will text me and I'll text her back something very short because I hate texting. It's my least favorite form of communication. And she, she tries to judge the inflections of my text when there is none. Like, why isn't there an exclamation point here? So is it possible to be a good communicator through text or not? Because you're not getting those visual clues.

[Ben Carlson]

As long as you recognize that there's certain rules that applies to texting that don't apply to other things. Let's take talking on the phone as an example. When you talk on the phone without realizing it, you over enunciate your words by about 30%. You put about 20% more emotion into your voice. You're not aware that you're doing this. You're not doing it deliberately, but you're doing it because part of your brain realizes this person can't see me. I need to show them what's going on through my voice. Now the. Where we get into trouble is when we start forgetting or ignoring that there's certain rules for certain modes of communication. So if you're texting with someone, an exclamation point has a lot more impact than if you're say, emailing someone. Right. Or speaking to them on the phone. And so the way that we get really, really good at different channels of communication is we just take a step back and we say, hey, look, a text is different from an email, is different from a phone call, is different from face to face. Let me just remember that there's slightly different rules for each one. I don't have to over enunciate on a text, but I might have to use an exclamation point so that they know what I'm feeling.

[Charles Duhigg]

My dad is a huge over enunciator.

[Ben Carlson]

It's funny.

[Charles Duhigg]

So what was the inspiration for the book? Where'd this come from?

[Ben Carlson]

Yeah, so it started with this bad pattern I got into with my wife, where I'd come home from work and I'd complain about my day, and she would give me some really good advice. She would say, like, you know, why don't you take your boss out to lunch? You guys can get to know each other a little bit better. And instead of hearing her advice, I would get even more upset. And I would say, like, why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to be on my side. You're supposed to be outraged on my behalf. And so I went to these researchers and I asked them, like, why do I keep falling into this trap? And they said, well, you got to figure out what kind of conversation is happening when you come home. You want to have an emotional conversation, but your wife thinks that you want a practical conversation. She thinks that you want to solve this problem. And because you're having different kinds of conversations at the same moment, it's very hard for you to hear each other. It's very hard for you to feel connected. This has become known within psychology as the matching principle. What it says is having the same kind of conversation at the same moment is the building block of communication. And that doesn't mean we have to stay in that mode the entire time. Right. We might align emotionally, and then we move to social, and then we move to practical, and then back to emotional. As long as we're moving together, we feel connected to each other, even if we disagree with each other.

[Michael Batnik]

At the end of the book, you talk a little bit about your personal experience, and then you give your email here. Are people actually sending you tons of emails?

[Ben Carlson]

Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. It's Charles. Charles duhigg.com. anyone who wants to can email me. Yeah, I read and respond to every email I get from a reader.

[Michael Batnik]

And so what's been the biggest, like, light bulb moment for people? Or is it just different across the board?

[Ben Carlson]

I think the biggest light bulb moment is that. And. And you guys can tell me if this happens in your life. Oftentimes we want to have a real conversation with someone. We want to connect with someone. We want to develop a relationship from just, you know, kind of like work friends to real friends. And they'll Write. And they'll say, I couldn't figure out why I wasn't able to do this. I couldn't figure out what was going wrong. And then. And in particular, this happens with deep questions. Then I read the chapter on deep questions, because there's stories about the CIA recruiting overseas assets and about how the Big Bang Theory became a hit. Hit and, you know, Netflix. But they said, look, when I read that chapter on deep questions, what I realized was I am not asking this person the right questions. And a deep question is something that just instead of asking me about the facts of my life, it asks me how I feel about my life. It asks me about my values or my beliefs or my experiences. And that can sound kind of intimidating, but it's as simple as if you meet someone as a doctor, instead of saying, you know, what hospital do you work at? Saying to them, oh, what made you decide to go to medical school? Right. If I'm.

[Michael Batnik]

See, we need help with this because Michael and I hate small talk. So we need better questions than, like, what do you do?

[Charles Duhigg]

I am. I'm the worst at small talk. And I've been in awkward positions where, like, there's either somebody that you see around town or whatever, and, like, months go by without you introducing yourself, and then it's like, too late.

[Ben Carlson]

Right, right.

[Charles Duhigg]

It's like, oh, I've seen you for the last five months. So I've been in that situation a few times. Let me ask you this. You mentioned, like, such a foundational thing that I've never thought about until reading your book, is like, knowing what sort of conversation you're having, and you mentioned how you would complain to your wife, and you're just maybe looking for, I don't know, a little bit of empathy or you're not looking for her to solve your problems. Just be like, yeah, that sucks. So my partner, Chris, this always pisses me off when he does this. He'll. He'll give me a problem. Then he'll be like, I'm not looking for advice. I'm just. I'm just sort of venting, and it annoys me. But is he actually a genius? Is he a super communicator? Yeah, he's actually a genius. Well.

[Ben Carlson]

Well, I don't know if he's a super asshole. He very well might be, but he is doing the right conversational thing. He's telling you what he wants to say. Now it's also okay for you to say, I don't want to hear you just vent. I want to solve this problem. Right. Like, I. Let's start on an emotional conversation. Let's move pretty quickly to a practical conversation. My wife does that with me all the time. She starts now. We start conversations with her saying, do you want me to just listen to, or do you want me to help you come up with solutions? And they actually teach teachers how to do this by telling them, ask your students, do you want to be helped? Do you want to be hugged? Or do you want to be heard? Which is the. The practical, the emotional and the social conversation. And the thing is, Chris is telling you without you asking, but you can also ask him, like. Like, why do you keep complaining to me about this? Do you want to solve it? Or you just got a vent, in which case I can put you on autopilot.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah. This idea that there's so many professions where communication is a secondary task, but it's even almost as important as a primary task. For example, Ben put me onto a show called the Pit, which is about doctors in an emergency room. So much of the show is empathy and communicating and not about medicine per se, but there are times to listen. Like exactly what you just described.

[Ben Carlson]

I think that's exactly right. And it's not just doctors. Right. We talk about financial advisors, but people don't go to their financial advisor because they think that that person has, like, the golden. The golden gift of choosing. Choosing stocks. They go because they feel like that person understands them, because it makes them feel okay, because they tell them, like, you don't got to worry about this. We're doing fine. Right. It's true of lawyers. It's true of every person we interact with. And the reason why is because our brains have evolved to crave communication and to crave connection. Right. In a state of nature, way back when, we had tribes, the tribes that succeeded the best were the ones that could be most pro social, that could come together and trust each other more and also exclude people who shouldn't be trusted, not be dupes. And so as a result, our brains have evolved to be really, really good at communication, if we let them. If we understand the skills that unlock that communication. Right. Asking deep questions is one of those skills. Proving that we're listening is another skill. And there's a technique for that known as looping for understanding. But figuring out what kind of conversation the other person wants and. And matching them or inviting them to match us, that's another big part of that, that one of those skills.

[Michael Batnik]

So one of the questions we've been getting a lot lately with the changes in technology, Is, well, is AI going to be my financial advisor someday? Right. Can AI do this? So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on. If we just fed your book into a large language model, how well would it be able to communicate with people? And will people actually trust that level of communication?

[Ben Carlson]

I mean, my guess is that it would get 80 or 85% of the way there, but that last 15% matters a lot. Right. So basically that exists right now. You know, there's all these, like, finance bots that I can go to, and there's lots of, like, resources. I don't need to have a conversation. I can read, you know, one up on Wall street and all these books and Graham and Dodd, and I can learn everything I need to know. I can also go to Vanguard and ask them what the optimal portfolio is. But the reason people don't just do that is because they want to talk to someone who understands them. They want to talk to someone with. With enough sense of who they are that they can say, look, I understand that you're asking a question about your portfolio right now. It seems like what you're. What's really going on is you're worried about whether you're going to be able to take a vacation next year.

[Michael Batnik]

Mm.

[Ben Carlson]

Like, let.

[Charles Duhigg]

Let me.

[Ben Carlson]

Let me tell you, you can definitely take a vacation. The ups and downs this month don't matter. Right? That's what we're looking for when we turn to a financial advisor. So I think financial advisors will be able to use AI. I think they already are. I think probably half the portfolios that I'm in are being managed by AI right now. But that being said, I don't choose them because they have the best AI. I choose them because I can call someone up and talk to them when I'm feeling worried.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah, there's. There's a. Advisors say, I don't. I don't manage portfolios. I manage people. So we had an email this week actually, getting back to the AI thing, and, yeah, the answers were pretty good. It was about whatever. It was about Roth conversions or whatever, like, practical stuff. But at the end of the day, when somebody wants to talk to a person, they want to talk to a person, not a computer.

[Ben Carlson]

Yes, I think that's exactly right. And, and some of those computers are going to get really good at sounding like people. But the gap between being pretty good and actually saying, like, look, I. I think this is a person and they know me is a huge gap. And nobody I've talked to in the AI world thinks that they're going to cross that chasm anytime soon.

[Charles Duhigg]

So we've spoken about some of the, some of the things that you should do. What are some of the most common mistakes that people make when they're in a negotiation? Or like, what are some of the things that you should stay away from that you think you're are, are helping but are counterproductive? Like for example, the best advisors talk the least on calls, and newer advisors tend to over communicate because they want to think that they have an answer for everything. When really the client is like, shut up, I want to talk. I'm talking like, this is about me, not about how smart you are. So that's a mistake that advisors make. What are some of the other common mistakes that people make?

[Ben Carlson]

So the number one thing is not asking enough questions, right? Particularly in a negotiation. And many conversations are what are known as quiet negotiations. So negotiations about how we're going to have this conversation. You would never go into a negotiation over like a, you know, a business and assume you know what the other side wants, right? You would ask some questions to figure out, like, what's going on inside their head, what are they looking for? Every conversation that we have, the more questions you ask, the more successful you're going to be. That's number one. The second thing is that oftentimes, oftentimes we don't understand why, why that person is in this conversation. And we don't understand why we are in this conversation. We haven't given any thought, right? So if I have a call with a client and I say to myself, oh, the goal of this call is to like, get this client to invest with me, give me more money. Well, first of all, that's probably not their goal, so we should know that our goals are different. Second of all, is that really your goal or is your goal to basically figure out like, what, where your client's at so that you can come back later with a proposal that actually meets their needs. The more that we understand our own goals, the more empowered we are. And then finally, the last thing is just we need to prove that we're listening. You might be the best listener on earth, and if you sit there and you don't show the other guy that you're listening to him, they're not going to believe that you're listening. They're going to think you're waiting your turn to talk. So what we should do in that call is we should turn and we should say, look, here's what I hear you saying. Am I getting this right? When you say X, it makes me think of Y. And I'm wondering if that's. If that's what's really going on in the background. When we prove that we're paying attention, that's how we listen. Listen is not a passive activity. It's an active activity.

[Michael Batnik]

You have a good chapter in here on persuasion as well. And I always have kind of divided feelings on this because I've seen how persuasion can be used against people. Right. There's good ways and there's bad ways. Right. You use the example of the lawyer I think of, like, a Bernie Madoff and someone in finance who uses their persuasive skills to. To sell people something that they don't need that is bad for them. So I'm curious how. How can people who are on the receiving end know that they're being persuaded by someone with good intentions versus someone with bad intentions?

[Ben Carlson]

So it's a. It's a good question. And Bernie Madoff's a great example of this, right? Because Bernie Madoff was a genius at emotional communication. Like, he ne. He could never explain to you how he was getting the returns, but he could talk about your legacy and what you're worried about and how he wants to provide for you. And so he got a bunch of investors who focused. Who were having emotional conversations without realizing it, and he. He matched them really well, and he was able. That's why he was able to get them to kind of.

[Michael Batnik]

You got Kevin Bacon.

[Ben Carlson]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So. So what's interesting is how do we tell when someone's, like, you know, coming after us when they're. When they're a con artist? There's a couple of things. First of all, our brains have actually evolved to be very good at noticing duplicity and inconsistencies. Again, because when we were in tribes, if someone showed up and they said, hey, I'm. I'm safe, and we trusted them. It was. It was very dangerous to the tribe. Right. So our brains have a hair trigger for looking for inconsistencies. Now, the thing is, oftentimes we ignore those because we don't want them to be true. This is actually true of people who get caught up in, like, those Nigerian scams. Inevitably, when you ask the person, they say, yeah, it didn't really add up. I thought that something was going on. But they. But they. They were so nice to me. Like, I'm. I was really lonely, and they would talk to me or X or Y or Z, they were giving me something else. And so I didn't ask those questions. And so the number one thing to do is when you go into a conversation is to say, look, I'm going into this conversation, and I. I'm in an emotional mindset, but I can't make this decision based entirely on emotions. If this person calms me, makes me feel good about myself, then that's not enough to decide that I'm going to invest with them. I need to move from there to a practical conversation. I need to ask them to back up all of their returns, how they're getting them, what are their theses, why. Why should I invest with them? And this is really, really important to. To understand that the way to avoid a big problem is to. Is to be more sensible and more discerning in what kind of conversation we're having and what we want from it.

[Charles Duhigg]

Ben and I spoke a couple of weeks ago about a negotiation where if you're getting work done to your house and you're speaking to a contractor, I have no idea how much a mudroom costs. And so what were we saying? We're like, we don't want to throw out a number. We get annoyed when they ask for the number first.

[Michael Batnik]

Yeah. They say, what's your budget? And I don't want them to anchor to that level.

[Ben Carlson]

Exactly.

[Charles Duhigg]

But we actually had somebody who was like, guys, somebody who's a contractor said, the reason why we asked is because we know ish what it costs, and we just want to understand your budget, so we don't throw out a number. Like, there are areas that we can cut if we need to. Come to where you are. But from the buyer's perspective, it's a little bit frustrating because I don't want to throw out a number. I have no idea. You tell me.

[Ben Carlson]

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm actually doing a renovation right now, so I completely understand. Right. You're so powerful.

[Michael Batnik]

So what's your strategy?

[Ben Carlson]

So my strategy is, whenever they ask me a question I don't want to answer, I ask them, tell me why you asked that question. Like, help me understand what you need from me. Right. Because. Because in my mind, I'm suspicious that they're just trying to figure out what the anchor is. They want to get it as high as they can. But when they say, so what you just said, and they say, look, I'm just trying to figure out, like, what scope you're in. Right. That all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I understand. Here's the numbers that I'm thinking about. Right. So I think that a lot of Times in a conversation, we don't talk about the conversation itself. We don't stop and say, you just said X. Explain to me why you said that. What are you really looking for? What's going on here? Right. And think about how frequently this happens with clients. Client comes in, you give them all this, like, news that you think is information that you think. Exactly. And they say something you don't expect, and suddenly the next thing you should do is say, tell me why you said that. What's going on in your head? That. That was the question that occurred to you, because that's going to tell you how to, how to speak in a way that they can understand you.

[Charles Duhigg]

I think when advisors are having a call with a prospective client, to the extent that they're listening, it's for, it's for clues. Or maybe they're just waiting to make their next point. And if you were to ask somebody, hey, how did that call go? I don't think they would necessarily have a great answer. Like, I don't know that their answer would be super accurate because they might be judging, like, their performance. And then they might be so, so ready to say what they're going to say next that they don't pick up on the pauses or the tone changes. What are some things that people can do to be a better listener? Because it is really hard in conversation. Oftentimes they. Somebody said something and. But. And they're still talking, that you want to store that, and you're thinking of a response and then.

[Ben Carlson]

Exactly. It's really difficult.

[Charles Duhigg]

Like, I, I struggle with that a lot.

[Ben Carlson]

It's. It's. It's like juggling. Right? So. So I think there's two things. Number one, the first thing to remember is nobody remembers what you say. They remember how you made them feel. Right? And that's true for us, too. And so when you're in a conversation, instead of saying, okay, did I get to 0.1, 0.2, 0.3, take some time and say, like, how does it seem like this person's feeling right now? How am I feeling? Am I feeling like we're connected with each other, or am I kind of frustrated because they won't, like, let me tell them all the facts? I want that feeling. The more we pay attention to that, the better. The second thing that we do is this thing that I mentioned, looping for understanding. It helps us listen more closely. So this is what it is. It's three steps. Number one, ask a question, preferably a deep question, right? You're asking about Someone's values or beliefs, ask them why this is important to them. Number two, after they answer the question, repeat back in your own words what you heard them say. Prove that you're paying attention. Most of us do this intuitively. It's step three that I always forget. Which is, after you've done that, ask them, did I get that right? Because when you're saying, you know, did I get that right? Did I hear you correctly? What we're really doing is we're asking them for permission to acknowledge that we were listening. And once they acknowledge that we're listening, not only do they become more likely to listen to us, but they remember that we're a good listener.

[Charles Duhigg]

On the topic of listening, that's a great answer. On the topic of listening. This is not unique to me. I used to think it was. But when you're in a social setting and you meet somebody, hey, nice to meet you, I'm Michael. What's your name? What is it in your brain that when somebody says their name, I never listen? I can't. It just goes right over my head. What is that?

[Ben Carlson]

So I'll give you a technique for it. The minute they say their name, think of something that it's related to that involves them that's profane. Like, I knew a guy named Michael Palmer, always forgot his last name. He's a big guy and his name is Michael Palmer. And I was like, oh, Michael Palmer. When that guy is by himself and like, you know, he's got big palms. Something tells me this is a guy who, who's not unfamiliar with his palms on his body. Now, I don't know if that's true at all, but I'm never going to forget that guy's name. Oftentimes the reason why names are so hard to remember is because we don't have a scaffold for them, Right? It's not like your name is Michael because you look like a Michael or because everyone who wears a yellow shirt is named a Michael. It's essentially a random name that was assigned to you by your parents. So we have to make it less random. And this is true for remembering anything. When we place information in a scaffold, it becomes easier to remember it. So, for instance, Michael Batnik. So here's what I would do if. If I just met you for Batnik, let's say I want to remember that. I would. I would picture you with some bat wings coming out. And I'd be like, you know, he doesn't look like Batman. Like you. You're A little pudgy. You're not. You're not. You're no Batman right now.

[Charles Duhigg]

I apologize for saying that.

[Ben Carlson]

I apologize for calling you pudgy.

[Charles Duhigg]

I'm a little. You called me at a sensitive time. I'm not feeling great about my way, Charles.

[Ben Carlson]

You know, I. I feel. I'm telling you, I was epic. It's great that I feel like I'm pudgy myself. And it doesn't actually matter whether you're pudgy or not. It's the fact that I made that connection in my head. I'm never going to forget that your last name is Vatnik.

[Michael Batnik]

So Michael and I get a lot of questions from young people in the finance world who are trying to break through. And they're trying to break through through networking, usually, Right. Like, I'm trying to communicate with someone, and they always want to do the I want to pick your brain thing. Right. And the thing that we try to tell them is no one wants to hear your story as a young person. People want to talk about themselves, and that's what you have to do, is get people talking about themselves. So you start off the book with the FBI guy who helps, who gets people to open up immediately, and they don't even realize what he's doing. But once you get someone to open up and share their own feelings, then they're put at ease. You somehow put them at ease. So I'm curious how you think about that in terms of getting others at ease and sharing their own personal feelings and how that is a communication tool.

[Ben Carlson]

And I. Felix Segala, the FBI, he's amazing, right? He can literally talk to anyone, and he can get them, like, just like, totally at ease and engaged, even if they're criminal. And he's. He works for the FBI, he can do it within seconds. And the reason why is because he asks those deep questions. And you're exactly right. People like to talk about themselves. We should ask them about ourselves. But if it's something where it's like, you know, I saw that you went to hbs, and I was wondering, like, in your second year, did you do X or did you do Y? If you're just asking about facts, what was your first job and then what was your second job and what it. That's not going to work. But if you ask them how they make sense of the world, you know, I'm wondering, like, I know you went into private equity. What was it about private equity that just really grabbed you, like, because you could have done anything suddenly that person's asking me what I care about. They're asking me to explain my values and my beliefs and my experiences. When we ask questions, not about how the facts of someone's life, but how they feel about their life, what we do is we invite them to open up. And when they share something with us, that gives us an opportunity to share something with them, and then we feel closer to each other.

[Charles Duhigg]

You know that guy when you. It's funny that you describe his physical appearance in the book, because I had a completely different image in my head of what he looked like. But there's an art to asking those personal questions. And there's a line. And I had one experience recently and another one that I can remember where somebody was getting personal with me, and I was like, dude, I don't. I don't even know you. Like, this feels weird, and it feels, like, calculated. It just felt very phony.

[Ben Carlson]

And were they sharing stuff about themselves that. Not really. Yeah, that's why.

[Charles Duhigg]

And it's like, dude, we're not. We're not really peers. Like, don't ask me that question.

[Ben Carlson]

Yeah. And I think what's going on there is that, first of all, you know, like, look, not. Not every question is appropriate for every setting. Right. But secondly is if I'm asking you question after question and you're sharing real things about yourself and I'm sharing nothing about myself.

[Charles Duhigg]

Weird.

[Ben Carlson]

It doesn't feel like a conversation. It feels like an interrogation.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Ben Carlson]

So. So there is an instinct again in our brains known as social reciprocity. That's the core instinct of how we connect with other people, which is that I. If you share something vulnerable with me, I feel like I should share something vulnerable with you. Now, that doesn't mean that if you say, you know, my w. My aunt passed away last week, I should say like, oh, I know what you're feeling. My dog died seven years ago, and I think about them all the time. Right. That's not. That's not me trying to share with you. That's me trying to steal the spotlight from you. You. But if you say something like, my aunt passed away last week, and I say, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. I lost an aunt, too. Like, what was your aunt like? What. Just tell me about her. Then suddenly it doesn't feel like. Doesn't feel like an interrogation. It feels like you're actually interested in me. And if you talk about how much you loved your aunt with the role she played in your life, and I say, it's Funny you mentioned that because, like, I had the same kind of relationship with my aunt, and I've miss. I miss her so much. Now we're actually having a back and forth now we're dialoguing with each other.

[Charles Duhigg]

What's some of the best feedback or biggest impact that you've made on people from the book? I'm sure you've heard from thousands of readers over the years.

[Ben Carlson]

So I think the biggest thing is the end of the book is about the Harvard Study of adult development. So for 80 years, Harvard has followed around thousands of people trying to figure out what makes you healthy, happy, and successful at age 65. What do you do during your life? And they had all these theories, particularly when it started. They thought that if you went to Harvard, you were definitely going to be happy, healthy, and successful. Turns out, that's not true. They thought that if you. If you. If you married someone from the same religion as yourself, that that was really important. Turns out, no. The only thing they found determines whether you're happy, healthy, and successful at 65. The predictor is, do you have at least a handful of close relationships at age 45? And the way that we develop those close relationships is through conversations. It's through. It doesn't mean you have to talk to someone every week, every month. I'm sure you guys have close friends that you talk to once or twice a year, but you probably set aside an hour to talk to them. And you know that the first 10 minutes are going to be awkward. You're going to be like, what's your daughter's name again? I can't remember. How old are they now? But you're setting aside that time to keep that connection alive. That is the thing. Being lonely is the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. If you have at least a handful of people in your life that you're having conversations with that you feel close to, you'll be healthier as you get older, you'll be definitely happier. And on most metrics, you'll also be more successful because you're getting exposed to opportunities you wouldn't see otherwise.

[Michael Batnik]

One of the things that we.

[Charles Duhigg]

Hang on, hang on, hang on. Charles, I don't think you were listening to me. You didn't answer my question.

[Ben Carlson]

Oh. Oh, sorry. So what was that? Sorry. What did I miss? What did I miss?

[Charles Duhigg]

What's some of the best feedback?

[Ben Carlson]

Oh, yes.

[Charles Duhigg]

From so.

[Ben Carlson]

From people. Yeah, so. From SO Listeners. I think they hit that. That afterward, and they send me stuff that says, like, I called up a friend I hadn't talked to in a year and a half, and it was great. And I've been putting it off because I thought it'd be weird. Right? That same way that I've seen you for five months and I haven't introduced myself just seems like it'd be too weird. It's not weird though, right? You go up and you say, hey, I've seen you around for the last five months. By the way, I'm Michael. Right. They love it because they're feeling the same way you are.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah, that's never gonna happen.

[Michael Batnik]

That is true. You always think the worst is gonna happen, but it's usually not that bad. So one of the things that we've learned in terms of communicating the finance world is that stories stick way better than statistics. Right? That makes sense. The data doesn't stick with people. It's the stories. I actually came across your work the first time when I was in grad school and one of my professors told the story from the Power of Habit about the dad and his daughter at Target. Right. The targeting ads where the dad realized that the daughter was pregnant. Right. Because the ads coming from Target were all for diapers and this stuff. And he's like, why are you sending my daughter this stuff? You trying to get her pregnant? And it was. No, she actually was pregnant. I'm just curious, for all your work you've done, what are the anecdotes and stories that people bring up the most to you from your books that are the most memorable?

[Ben Carlson]

And I'll say I try and write these books with heavy on the anecdotes. Right. Because I think you're exactly right. Not only is it more fun to read stories or to listen to them if it's an audiobook, we just remember things much better. Our brain is built to scaffold information into a narrative structure so that Target one comes up a lot. The other one that comes up a lot is Alcoa. Paul O'Neill at Alcoa. Because when. And this is from the Power of habit, when Paul O'Neill took over Alcoa, he said his main priority is going to be worker safety. And it transformed the entire company. And the company became, like, much more profitable and much more efficient as a result. And people bring that up a lot. And then in this new book, Super Communicators, the story that they often bring up is the. The story. The. The story from the first chapter about the CIA officer recruiting a spy. Because we think of CIA officers as being, like, suave and dashing. And this Guy. This guy was, like, exactly the opposite. He was the worst CIA officer on earth. They sent him over to Europe. He was, like, 32 years old. And, like, people would say to him at parties, I know that you're a spy. I know you're trying to recruit me. If you keep talking to me, I'm going to report you to the police. Right. He was terrible at this job. And then eventually he meets this woman, and, like, he tries to work her and tries and nothing works. And then at some point, he just gives up. And he's. He's like, look, I'm really sorry. I know what you're feeling. I'm so disappointed in myself. I know that you're disappointed in yourself. You're about to go home, tell you this Middle Eastern country where you live. I just give up. Let's just have. I just want to connect with you. And it was at that moment that she says, you know what? I think I can help you out.

[Charles Duhigg]

Charles, as we come to a close. How's that for super communication, by the way?

[Ben Carlson]

That's pretty good.

[Charles Duhigg]

Bet and I were talking today on our podcast about how Ben was saying that I was. I'm really good at having difficult conversations, but I interjected. I said, but only at work. In my personal life, I. I'm not great at it. But is that. Is that normal to have like. That? It's almost like severance. Like, I'm. I communicate very differently with people at work than I do with people in my personal life.

[Ben Carlson]

So let me ask you, what are you doing at work that makes it better that you're not doing at home?

[Charles Duhigg]

Oh, that's a good question. I don't know.

[Michael Batnik]

You're probably just more direct at work, right? You just. You. You get to the point immediately.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah, like, I. I don't have. I don't have a problem, you know, having difficult conversations with employees or with potential vendors or partners or people that ask me for something. And I'm not. I am. I think I do a pretty good job of. Of being very direct. And I'm not an asshole. I don't try to insult people, but I'm just. I'm. I get to the end quickly. And in my personal life, I'm probably likely to shy away from a conversation like that.

[Ben Carlson]

So what I hear you saying, and tell me if you think I'm getting this wrong, is that at work, there's certain skills that you use. You get to the. You identify the end very, very quickly. You say, look, I'm having this conversation because I Want to get the price down. And I want to work through this with you. Right. Let's find a shared goal. You're probably also taking a lot of the emotion out of it, or you're not making it personal. You're making it about business. So those are two skills. And once you recognize those skills, you can use those same skills at home. Right? You're sitting down with a kid or you're sitting down with your spouse, and you can say, look, I want to talk about, like, you know, where we're going to go on vacation next year. And let me tell you, let me tell you, let me be direct. Here's the goal I'm looking for. I want a place where we can go that's not too expensive and we get to spend some quality time to each with each other. Right. Or you are driving me crazy because you're doing X and Y and Z. But the reason I'm bringing this up is here's my goal. I'm not saying that you got to change. I'm saying that I need to understand why you're doing this, and that'll help me process it. So you have skills that you are using at work, and those skills are fungible. You can use those skills at home, but they don't seem like skills until you recognize them as such, and that's why they're so powerful. Do you think that would work, perhaps?

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to tell my wife to listen to this podcast.

[Ben Carlson]

And then you can also ask the other person. Right? My wife asks me all the time. Like, you can talk about the conversation itself and say, look, this conversation is not going as well as I wanted it to. Why do you think it's not going so well? Like, I brought up this thing that I think is important, and it seems like. Seems like this is a hard conversation for you. Tell me what I could have done to make this better. The more we think about conversations, the better the conversation we get we become at having those conversations.

[Charles Duhigg]

That seems like a very adult thing to do. I don't know that I'm quite there yet. Maybe. Maybe next decade. Charles, this was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for coming on and getting me prepared for my talk on Monday. Where do we send people that want to learn more about you and communicate with you?

[Ben Carlson]

Yeah, absolutely. So you can find super communicators at Amazon or Audible or your local bookseller. And if you want to find me, my website is charlesduhigg.com d u h I g g 2 g's and my newsletter, as you mentioned, on substack, is called the Science of Better, and I'd love to hear from people.

[Charles Duhigg]

Wonderful. Thanks so much.

[Ben Carlson]

Thank.