Animal Spirits Podcast Summary: "Talk Your Book: The Nasdaq 100 of Crypto"
Released on May 24, 2025
Introduction
In this episode of the Animal Spirits Podcast, hosts Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson explore the dynamic world of cryptocurrency markets, focusing on recent fluctuations and the emergence of crypto-focused investment products. The conversation is enriched by an in-depth interview with Samir Kurbaj from Hashdex, a leading crypto asset manager aiming to bridge traditional finance with the evolving digital economy.
Recent Crypto Market Dynamics
Michael Batnik opens the discussion by highlighting the unusual market behavior observed in cryptocurrencies over the past few weeks:
“It's been a wild couple of weeks for crypto. When it turned or what that one Sunday night when it seemed to be decoupling from the market [...]” ([01:08]).
He notes Bitcoin's unexpected resilience during a typically risk-off macro environment, likening its behavior to being prophetic. Ben Carlson adds:
“People always say the stock market is forward looking, but can we now say the crypto market is more forward looking? Maybe.” ([01:36]).
This sets the stage for examining whether cryptocurrencies are beginning to act as forward indicators for broader market movements.
Interview with Samir Kurbaj of Hashdex
Founding and Mission of Hashdex
Samir Kurbaj provides an overview of Hashdex:
“We founded a company to build a bridge between the traditional financial markets and crypto as a new asset class...” ([03:17]).
Established in 2018, Hashdex initially operated in the US but expanded globally due to favorable regulatory environments abroad. Currently managing approximately $1.5 billion in assets, Hashdex focuses on ETFs and investment strategies, with their flagship product being the NASDAQ Crypto Index ETF (NCIQ).
Samir’s Journey into Crypto
When asked about his transition from traditional finance to crypto, Samir recounts:
“I'm a software engineer, but I always been involved in, you know, traditional markets... I started investing in crypto in 2016.” ([04:45]).
He highlights his initial skepticism influenced by prevailing narratives that labeled crypto as anarchic and criminal. However, his work on creating a new stock exchange revealed the transformative potential of blockchain and smart contracts, leading to a deeper commitment to the crypto space.
“You could replace that by 50 lines of code in a smart contract. And you can build a decentralized exchange. That was revolutionary for me.” ([07:20]).
Hashdex’s NASDAQ Crypto Index US ETF (NCIQ)
Samir explains the concept behind the NASDAQ Crypto Index:
“It's a benchmark for this space. [...] it has a quarterly rebalance process in which new assets might be included or excluded based on those rules.” ([15:29]).
Initially launched outside the US with five assets, the index now includes nine, maintaining a significant allocation to Bitcoin. The US version currently includes only Bitcoin and Ethereum due to regulatory constraints, but there are filings with the SEC to incorporate additional assets.
Tokenization of Traditional Assets
Michael probes the necessity of tokenizing traditional assets, to which Samir responds:
“You can think about this in two ways. [...] the younger generation is getting more used to digital assets than traditional assets.” ([13:09]).
He emphasizes that tokenization serves both to integrate traditional assets into the blockchain ecosystem and to cater to the digitally native investor base. Samir envisions a future where stablecoins and tokenized deposits become commonplace, facilitating seamless 24/7 transactions and investments.
Volatility and Investment Strategies in Crypto
Addressing crypto’s notorious volatility, Samir compares its return distribution to a "smile curve":
“When you look at crypto, you either have very positive returns or very negative returns.” ([18:55]).
To mitigate behavioral biases triggered by such volatility, Hashdex advocates for a passive, diversified investment approach:
“Usually, professional investors look for like a 1 to 5% allocation for the long run.” ([20:42]).
This strategy aims to leverage crypto’s high volatility for portfolio rebalancing without succumbing to emotional investment decisions.
Adoption Trends and Regulatory Environment
Samir draws parallels between blockchain technology and the early Internet, suggesting that we are still in the nascent stages of blockchain adoption:
“If you asked like Bill Gates in 1995, like, what was the Internet for? [...] we're in the early phase in which technology you can think about blockchains and smart contract platforms as a tool.” ([09:19]).
He identifies stablecoins as the likely initial widespread application, providing a digital alternative to traditional currencies and facilitating easier payments. Regulatory clarity, especially in the US, is seen as a catalyst for institutional adoption:
“With more regulatory clarity, especially now with more regulatory clarity, [...]” ([15:18]).
Recent Developments and Future Outlook
Discussing the recent surge in Bitcoin and Ethereum prices, Samir acknowledges the difficulty in pinpointing exact causes:
“We don't look much into the short term and trying to come up with narratives and explanations for why it went up yesterday, but we really try to zoom out and look at the fundamentals of this technology.” ([20:46]).
He cites geopolitical developments and regulatory news as factors contributing to reduced market uncertainty, thereby supporting risk assets:
“The big topic now is the tariffs. [...] this is positive for risk assets.” ([20:51]).
Samir remains optimistic about Bitcoin's future as a digital store of value, projecting potential growth driven by increased adoption and reduced volatility:
“We believe that over time we're going to see increased adoption of Bitcoin as a store of value.” ([24:31]).
He anticipates that as Bitcoin matures, its volatility will decrease, making it a more stable investment vehicle:
“Once we have Bitcoin becoming a good store of value, then its volatility will not be 50% annualized, will probably be something like 5% annualized.” ([26:37]).
Conclusion
The episode concludes with Samir Kurbaj celebrating the launch of the NASDAQ Crypto Index ETF in the US, marking a significant milestone for institutional investment in cryptocurrencies. He encourages listeners to visit hashdex.com for more information and educational resources on long-term crypto investment strategies.
Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson emphasize the importance of viewing cryptocurrencies as a transformative asset class, advocating for informed and strategic investment approaches amidst the evolving digital financial landscape.
Key Takeaways
- Cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ethereum are showing signs of decoupling from traditional markets, potentially acting as forward indicators.
- Hashdex’s NASDAQ Crypto Index ETF (NCIQ) aims to provide institutional investors with a diversified and regulated way to invest in the crypto space.
- Tokenization of traditional assets is paving the way for broader adoption and integration of digital assets into everyday financial activities.
- Volatility in the crypto market presents both risks and opportunities, with a recommended passive allocation strategy to manage exposure.
- Regulatory clarity and technological advancements are critical factors driving the institutional adoption and stabilization of cryptocurrencies.
Notable Quotes
- “Bitcoin is front running, whether you want to call it the liquidity, the balance, whatever.” — Michael Batnik ([02:00])
- “People always say the stock market is forward looking, but can we now say the crypto market is more forward looking? Maybe.” — Ben Carlson ([01:36])
- “It's a long term technology, it's a new asset class. It's historically uncorrelated with the other assets that you have in your portfolio.” — Samir Kurbaj ([19:00])
For more insights and detailed information, listeners are encouraged to visit hashdex.com and explore their educational resources.