Chapter 3 Ep. 47 When the Cards Fly and the Nits Hide

Summary

Ante Up Poker Podcast: Chapter 3 Ep. 47
“When the Cards Fly and the Nits Hide”
Host: Joe Scales
Date: December 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

This week’s episode is a lively, insightful exploration of current poker room happenings, the growing impact of AI in poker and content, a heated rules debate with the ever-wise Elliot Schechter, classic strategy breakdowns in Hand of the Week, and Joe Scales’ humorous but pointed defense of “the art of folding.” Regulars Elle, Dustin King (Poker Room Director, Schenectady), Patrick, and Elliot bring humor, banter, and sharp analysis for the everyday poker enthusiast.

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Table Talk with Dustin King

[03:34 – 28:13]

Poker Room & Tournament Updates

• The Electric City Mini Event:
  • Final event of the year: $50,000 guarantee, five starting flights, Day 2 on Sunday, followed by a $10,000 black chip bounty ([04:00]).
  • New “One and Done” no re-entry tournament on some December Wednesdays, continuing into the new year ([05:39]).
  • Upcoming tournament leaderboard promo with a quarterly $5,000 free roll for the top 27 point earners ([06:04]).

“Leaderboards make people behave wild. I love watching what happens over the series.”
— Joe Scales [06:20]

• Community & Festive Notes:
  • Dustin, Elle, and Joe joke about Christmas shopping procrastination and celebrating Joe’s mom’s 70th ([04:51]–[05:02]).
  • Regular events for New Year’s, including high hands, an Uber Stack, and more “One and Done.”

WSOP No Limit Docuseries Controversy

• Overview:
  • The much-anticipated WSOP documentary was yanked from YouTube after it was discovered AI was used in the editing—altering or fabricating cast members’ dialogue without consent ([07:35]–[09:25]).
  • Notable players featured included Negreanu, Hellmuth, Lexi, Gavin Mather, Kristin Foxen, and the Keating brothers—who complained after AI tampered with their footage.

“What are you thinking when you don’t tell these people that AI is going to be used to change or enhance or fabricate things?...That’s not the way to use AI and that’s why a lot of people…have some distrust in it.”
— Dustin King [09:40]

• Big Picture:
  • AI as a tool is fine, but transparency and consent are key.
  • Joe reflects on how he uses AI for email rewrites and Vegas planning, but echoes concern about its misuse in creative contexts ([10:09]-[11:40]).

“All the good the AI can do, somebody uses it for something negative like that…and doesn’t…bother to say…‘we just thought this would be more interesting if we added it like this or whatever.’”
— Joe Scales [11:40]

AI vs. AI Poker Tournament

[12:27 – 20:38]

• Battle of the Bots:

  • In October 2025, a unique event put various large language model (LLM) AIs—including OpenAI, Claude Sonet, Grok, Meta’s Llama—against each other in simulated online poker ([12:41]–[14:32]).
  • OpenAI took first place, Claude second, Grok third; “Meta Llama” lost its entire bankroll, showing LLMs can have (quirky) playstyles.
  • Each AI started with a $100,000 simulated bankroll, playing 3,800 hands over four simultaneous nine-handed tables.

• Player “Personalities”:

  • Meta Llama’s 60% VPIP (Voluntarily Put $ In Pot): playing so loose “we might need to rename it to Meta Fish” ([16:57]).
  • Discussion about how these AI agents mimic diverse human behaviors, and what might happen as they accumulate more experience.

“It’d be really interesting to see what these AI tools start doing after they simulate, you know, millions and billions…and see how they start playing. Do they all start playing alike?”
— Dustin King [18:28]

Additional Topics

• New York City Casino Developments
  • Three major proposals for new NY casinos: $4B at Ferris Point golf course in Bronx, $8.1B at MET Park near Citi Field, and a multi-billion upgrade for Resorts World Aqueduct in Queens ([21:47]–[25:32]).
  • Revenue from these is already factored into the state budget; infrastructure improvements cited as major benefit.
  • Upstate vs. NYC poker community attitudes and predicted local impact.

“Upstate New York and New York City are kind of worlds apart. I don’t think a lot of upstate people voluntarily go to the city if they don’t have to.”
— Dustin King [23:32]

Community Shoutouts

• Rivers Casino’s Shauna
  • Won “Front of House” – Rivers Finest award ([26:48]).
  • Joe sings her praises: “She’s there to be there for the players. And you couldn’t ask for a better person in your poker room.” ([27:13])

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Call the Floor with Elliot Schechter

[28:13 – 40:17]

Ruling Scenario: Is the Hand Dead?

Submitted by Jason Shut

• Situation:
  • Old-timer gets excited after realizing he's won; slams his two cards down, one flies off the table. Villain demands the hand is dead; floor rules in villain’s favor ([29:00–30:12]).

Elliot’s Analysis

• Historical Context:
  • Some rooms have ancient rules: any card off the table is dead (from “deal your own” era).
• Modern Standard:
  • As long as the card is “identifiable and retrievable,” it should be live ([31:26]).
  • Surveillance and witnesses can confirm it was the correct card.
• Principle:
  • The spirit of the rules: best hand should win, avoid technicalities being exploited by angle shooters.

“The goal is to…make sure the best hand gets the money, and…that the outcome is fair for everyone…This was only fair to the person who didn’t have the best hand and not fair to anybody else.”
— Elliot Schechter [32:19]

• Advice:
  • “Don’t be cute, don’t be fancy, don’t be stupid. When you’re showing your cards, just simply turn your hand over and put it on the table.” ([34:38])

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Hand of the Week with Patrick

[40:31 – 61:12]

Submitted by Will Cameron

• Game: $1/$3 cash, $400 buy-in
• Hand: Cutoff with A♦ J♣
• Preflop: Two limpers, raises to $15; three-way to the flop.
• Flop: J♥ 9♥ 4♣ – bets $25, only button calls.
• Turn: 3♠ – bets $45, button raises to $120.
• Analysis:
  • Joe advocates caution, noting the raise likely means a set or strong draw.
  • Patrick’s tempted to call, playing the “curious hero.”
  • Will calls, pot now $306.

“I have been called a nit the last two weeks…I’m saving my $75.”
— Joe Scales [51:04]

• River: K♠ – Will checks, button bets $180. Will tanks and eventually calls.
• Result: Button has Q♠ 10♠ (rivered straight).
• Lessons:
  • Turn raise was the warning; river bet is rarely a bluff at these stakes.
  • Need to ask “Who plays this way, with what hands, how often?”
  • Recognize when you’re up against strength, not just “fishing to be right.”

“But in the moment, my brain found just enough reasons to convince myself to be curious, and it cost me a solid chunk of my stack. That’s the pain of $1/3 poker.”
— Will [58:41]

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Joe’s One Outer:

“The Art of Folding”
[61:22 – 64:47]

Joe humorously addresses being labeled a “nit” for folding more lately, defending folding as the often-overlooked skill of true discipline.

“Folding is actually the adulting of poker. It’s paying bills. It’s eating a salad when you really want a cheeseburger. It’s choosing not to argue with that guy on Facebook who decided the earth is flat. It’s not fun, but it saves your life. Your poker life.”
— Joe Scales [61:22]

• Key message:
  Folding isn’t weakness—it’s poker survival. It’s what keeps you in the game long enough to exploit the real profitable spots.

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Notable Quotes

• “Leaderboards make people behave wild.” – Joe Scales [06:20]
• “If a bot can bust, I can bust.” – Joe Scales [16:31]
• “It’s okay to use [AI] as a tool, but…you need to be getting consent and making sure that it’s used with some transparency.” – Dustin King [09:40]
• “Don’t be cute, don’t be fancy, don’t be stupid. When you’re showing your cards, just simply turn your hand over…” – Elliot Schechter [34:38]
• “Folding is underrated. It’s survival. It’s discipline. It’s self-preservation for people like me that like to tell themselves they play aggressively when it matters.” – Joe Scales [63:54]

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Key Timestamps

• Table Talk begins: [03:34]
• NY Casino Proposals: [21:47]
• Call the Floor w/ Elliot: [28:13]
• Hand of the Week: [40:31]
• Joe’s One Outer (Folding): [61:22]

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Episode Flow & Tone

The show is playful, witty, frank, and rooted in everyday poker. There’s enthusiastic banter, occasional self-deprecation (particularly around folding and “nitting”), and genuine curiosity about both poker’s cultural side (“table talk”) and the modern edge (technology, casino developments). The episode skillfully weaves humor with useful insight, making it a must-listen for both casual and serious players.

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For Further Information

• Participate:
  Email your Call the Floor or Hand of the Week scenarios to podcastyupmagazine.com
• Home Games:
  Patreon-only Hold’em game: Thursday, Dec 11th, 8:30 EST
• Discord & Magazine:
  See show notes or anteupmagazine.com

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Note: Intro/outro ads & credits excluded from summary.

Transcript

[Sal]

Hey, Sal. Hank, what's going on? We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana and it was so easy. Too easy. Think something's up? You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day. It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right. Case closed.

[Joe Scales]

Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.

[Podcast Narrator]

Broadcasting from the Ante up studio, it's the longest running poker podcast for the everyday poker player with your host, Joe Scale.

[Joe Scales]

Hello a team, and welcome back to another episode of the Ant Poker podcast where every hand is an opportunity and every player is a friend and every episode is a winning experience. I'm your host, Joe Scales, and if I sound a little extra nasally today, it's because my immune system decided to take a mid season bi week. But it's not nearly enough to keep me away from y'. All. The show must go on and it absolutely will. Before Elle joins me for table talk though, I've got to few quick announcements. First, the Patreon home game is this coming Thursday the 11th. It will be the hold' em game and It'll be at 8:30 Eastern. If you haven't already, hop on to Patreon and join us. I spun the karma wheel already and I reached out to the three winners, but trust me, we're hoping to see way more than than just those faces. Secondly, make sure you jump into the Ante Up Discord. If you need a link to the Discord, you can find it in the show description, our bio, or just email [e-mail] and I'll send you a link. The Discord is where we can turn on the cameras, we can turn on the mics and make it feel like a true home game. When we're not playing, it's, it's still a blast to hang out, talk hands to the week, swap stories and chat about the magazine. Speaking of the magazine, I got an email from someone who discovered us on YouTube and didn't realize we actually have a monthly publication. That's on me for glossing over it. So let me fix that now. If you enjoy the show and and you want more poker strategy lifestyle tips behind the Felt Talk, check out the [e-mail] and click on the magazine tab. It's a great read whether you're grinding the felt or just dreaming of your next session. So check it out. All right, Elle's at the door. And we've got a guest joining us for Table Talk this week. So that's all I have for now. Let's get on with the show.

[Podcast Narrator]

Find out what conversations are happening around the poker table with Table Talk.

[Joe Scales]

Elle and I are back around the

poker table with our favorite poker room director from Schenectady, New York, Dustin King. How are you?

[Dustin King]

Great. The only poker room manager from Schenectady, New York. Thank you.

[Joe Scales]

We weren't going to mention that.

I love that. I love that clarifying statement. This is what I love about you. Welcome back.

[Dustin King]

Thank you.

[Joe Scales]

We love having you on. How's it going? What's going on in your neck of the woods?

[Dustin King]

Great. Keeping busy, gearing up to this weekend's event. We have another Electric City mini event. It's the final one of the year. That's the $50,000 guaranteed event that we run over five days. One flight each day for day one. Day two on the following Sunday, followed by a $10,000 guaranteed black chip bounty. Always a good time.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I know we talked about trying to make it up there and we just weren't able to make it work.

I know. I'm really bummed. Like, I'm already thinking through all the players. Like, I need you to tell Legend that I said hello. I need to know how all my girls are doing. I know they look forward to these series. So we are bummed we're not going to be able to make it back up there.

[Dustin King]

That's okay. There's going to be more next year.

[Joe Scales]

I know, right?

Exactly. Exactly. So all in, all of you are finished or even started your Christmas shopping because I haven't started.

[Dustin King]

I also have not started. I'll probably wait till the weekend before Same.

[Joe Scales]

God bless your soul.

[Dustin King]

You're all getting gift cards. That's it.

[Joe Scales]

I know. Oh, my gosh. And here I am with my Christmas sweatshirt. I have like six of them. So all month long, if you're watching on YouTube, that's what you get because I am trying to get festive. We have not put our tree up yet, but we're getting ready to celebrate. Do a little bit of celebrating with my family early this week because my mom turned 70. So we're gonna. Yeah, I'm super excited. So we're gonna go hang out and do some festive things with them. So the miniseries is coming up. Anything else happening in December or for New Year's? I know your players are super loyal and they're always there, but anything they can look forward to.

[Dustin King]

So the only new thing that we're trialing this month, we have added a second tournament on some Wednesdays in December. It's called the One and Done. Basically it's just a no reentry event. We're going to continue that into the new year. And small sneak peek, pending approval, we're going to be rolling out a leaderboard promotion for tournaments starting next year.

[Elliot Schechter]

Yeah.

[Dustin King]

Hopefully running it on a quarterly basis. We'll invite the top 27 point earners each quarter to a $5,000 free roll. Should be a lot of fun. You know, keep the list updated throughout the quarter. People can see where they're at and then battle it out at the end of the quarter.

[Joe Scales]

I would love to see what that does for your room because I can already imagine some of the key heavy hitters and would love to see how that sparks their play and how they might play differently or approach things differently because leaderboards make people behave wild. I love it. I love watching what happens over the.

Then you're just kind of saying, well, how many points do I need? What place do I need to get for that? And yeah, it's. I love that.

And I'm pretty sure that if we lived closer, Joe would be there for the one and done. Those are his favorite types of tournaments. You get one shot, you're either in or you're out. And then the leaderboard, God help you, because that just gets his juices flowing.

So I would have spreadsheets.

I know. I guarantee you. I guarantee you that there would be some. Some things happening, so. Well, cool. I really love to hear that, especially just knowing your community. I know that's going to give them some new energy and some things. Things to look forward to as well. So. Awesome. Anything planned for New Year's? Do you guys get anything happening for that holiday?

[Dustin King]

We don't normally do anything crazy special in the poker room. We'll just have our regular high hands that day and then we'll have an uber stack tournament and a one and done tournament. But, you know, we want people to be able to go enjoy themselves for New Year's Eve.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know if this will be back by then, but. Did you see the docu series? Did you check it out before they pulled it from YouTube? The WSOP docu series, what was it called? No Limit.

No Limit.

No Limit. Did you had you had a chance to check it out at all?

[Dustin King]

I didn't get a chance to see any of the episodes before they pulled them.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I'm super bummed about this because that was one of those things that we have a watch list and that was on our watch list of like, okay, when we can have like a Saturday afternoon or something where we can watch a couple of them in a row. Let's do it. And then we're driving to a basketball game this week and Joe's like, oh, no. What? And he goes, the docu series has been yanked from YouTube. And I was like, okay, you're gonna have to read that article to me because I'm driving. But, you know, a lot of people have been. This is much anticipated, waiting for almost a year because it's supposed to document Last WSOP in Paradise in Atlantis. And the goal of it was to show the personalities of the players instead of just, you know, hijackpots, which they, I mean, high guarantees, which they have, and buy ins, so on and so forth. But the goal of the docu series was to show the personalities. And so now there's a massive conflict because dun, dun, dun. AI has been introduced into the editing process. And so, I mean, the cast was epic.

Yeah. I mean, they had what, Negreano, Hellmuth, Lexi, Gavin Mather.

Right. Which is how I actually found out from Kristin Foxen. That's where I saw it.

Yeah.

So.

And then they had Alan and Alex Keating, which ended up being the ones that this whole drama ensued because the AI was putting some words in their mouths.

Apparently not one, but two Keatings were quite unhappy with this. So have you read anything, heard anything, anything, any buzz about this?

[Dustin King]

So I haven't heard anything in person, just from what I saw on the Internet. You know, it's okay to use AI as a tool, but.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Dustin King]

You know, what are you thinking when you don't tell these people that AI is going to be used to change or enhance or fabricate things, you. I mean, what. They're not going to see it. You know, that's. That's not the way to use AI and that's why a lot of people, you know, have some distrust in it. You know, you have to be upfront about these things. It's okay to use it as a tool, but, you know, you need to be getting consent and making sure that it's used with some transparency.

[Joe Scales]

A hundred percent, I agree. And we were having a conversation with my cousin who was in at Thanksgiving last week, and he said, you know, AI is like the Internet. When we were growing up, if you're not going to be participating and using the Internet, you're going to get left behind. You've Got to be aware of what AI is, what it's capable of, and how you could possibly use it to enhance or streamline or make processes smoother. I mean, I know that's one thing I'm doing is checking emails before I send them, maybe rewording them or I've used it to plan some of our trips to Vegas. Like, hey, we're going to be in Vegas on these days and it'll find all the concerts, all of the dining events. You know, it can enhance a lot and help a lot. But. But I agree with you. The distrust comes when we're using it to produce something or fabricate something, and that's exactly why it's been pulled. I thought the WSOP handled it very well. They took it right down to respect the, the cast and the players that were a part of the whole docu series. And they've said, you know, we've taken it down, we're going to go back to re editing and we'll release it once it's ready. But I thought you also brought up a really good point too, that if you're going to use it, let the people know and give them a chance to see. Is that really what I wanted to say or not say or. I feel like using AI for the editing process of, like speeding up your editing process, cutting out ums and us. I would personally love to be able to have that.

But you've been more comfortable with. With utilizing it in things like you said, with email and things like that. I have. Not really. I barely even dipped my toe into it. But it's fascinating, all the things that you can do and a little bit scary that you can just take his voice and create a whole new sentence that he didn't say. Yeah, I hate that. All of the good the AI can do, somebody uses it for something negative like that and doesn't even. Like you said, Dustin doesn't even bother to say, hey, we just thought this would be more interesting if we added it like this or whatever.

Right.

But speaking of AI, though, there was this, this poker battle that I didn't even know took place October 27th through November 3rd.

Okay.

And they took these AI. It's LLMs. And I didn't know what that was, so I looked it up and I brought my homework. I. I came prepared to class. A large language model is a type of artificial intelligence that can understand, generate and process human language. These models are trained on massive data sets of text and code, allowing them to recognize patterns and perform various natural language processing tasks.

So they put LLMs from different brands. So like I've, I've been using Copilot, that's one of the AI tools I've been using. I've heard of another one called Liminal that you can use. Like if you have phi, any sort of protected health information, it will scan or pull that out so that you can utilize the AI tool. It won't put it out for the world. So it's not going to be in chat GPT. It's sort of like a firewall. It protects information, which is really nice. But those are the only three I know. ChatGPT, Liminal, Copilot. Were there others? Do you know about any others, Dustin?

[Dustin King]

Oh yeah. I mean you've got Grok, Gemini. Yep. Yeah. So Google's Gemini, Meta's Llama. Yeah, so there's a handful of other ones.

[Joe Scales]

Okay. Yeah, the Grok one was.

A lot of players have been using that.

Yeah.

Okay.

And the Meta1 llama, they were actually the first one, the only one that was, that eliminated their bankroll. So they didn't play this series very well.

So set the stage. Like what, who, who were the ones that were involved of all these different AI, I want to call them like brands, which ones, which ones competed and

who said, I'm not sure which ones? All of the ones that were in there, but I know that OpenAI took first, Claude Sonet, they were second.

Okay.

Grok was third and Meta was the one that went. They were the only one that lost their entire. They were given a hundred thousand dollar bankroll and they lost it all.

Which kind of makes me giggle because it's almost like the personalities of the AI, like Meta seemed to be a little bit more like risky and loosey goosey. Which is what you kind of think of from Meta anyway is they're a little loosey goosey, they're a little risk taking. You know, it's almost like they took on the personality of the, of the company that owned them. Yeah, I just thought that was kind of interesting. But so they just kind of said these are the parameters, these are the rules of hold them and let them run.

They gave them a hundred thousand dollar bankrolls, 1020 blinds, simultaneous nine handed tables, four simultaneous nine handed tables. And they weren't allowed to have any kind of Andes or straddles or anything like that.

Okay.

So you would sit down with 100 big blinds with auto top up. So every time you would go below 100 big blinds, you could top up, back up to 100 until you ran out of your money. And interesting I thought it was. To me, the idea behind, the reasoning behind it was, was interesting because Max Pavlov, which all I think of as Pavlov. Yeah. Was looking, he wanted to test like the general purpose LLMs and how they can reason under like poker's parameters. Right. So incomplete information, the strategy, the bluffing and things like that. And it was, they weren't looking for like the super high level solver kind of play. Right. Just how did they respond to these situations and was it like natural? Was it human like behaviors?

What makes me feel better if a bot can bust, I can bust. If they have all the information and all the possibilities, then that makes me feel a lot better because man, let me tell you, owning a poker media company and sitting down at a table with a patch on and then you're like, I'm out. See you guys.

Yeah.

[Dustin King]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

What does that say about me? Right? Yeah, but that's, that's exciting to, to hear that a bot can bust. Yeah, I think. What do you think, Dustin? What's your.

[Dustin King]

I'll tell you one thing, it's called Meta Llama, but I think we might need to rename it to Meta Fish. I know it, it had a 60% VPIP in this simulation, you know, so that's where, you know, you voluntarily put money into the pot pre flop. So yeah, loosey goosey indeed. But I think, you know, I think Meta is the fish.

[Joe Scales]

Sounds like, sounds like they're just there for the table talk. They're there for the social. They're not really there to be, be making any money.

Maybe Patrick was behind the.

Careful, careful, careful, careful.

I do think it was interesting though that each one of them had their device diverse style. Like yeah, that is interesting it.

And they stuck with it. It didn't sound like there was like a whole big shift or swing in their play.

Right. You know, like it is human like in a way to sit down at a table and you have this player over here playing super tight. This player over here is loosey goosey as, as we said, you know. And so just the fact that they have that different quote unquote personality to them is, is fascinating. It's really. They didn't play enough hands to, to get a big scope of their play.

So more to come. Like the data is still being collected probably.

Yeah, they played 3,800 hands, which seems like a lot, but it's really not enough to get a big scope of what they can do right here.

[Dustin King]

It'd be really interesting to See what these, these AI tools start doing after they simulate, you know, millions and billions and hundreds of billions of hands to see how they start playing. You know, I'd be curious, do they all start playing alike? You know, does nobody do anything? Do they all start playing tight? Because they all know what's going on now or what, you know, or do they keep their personalities all the way throughout or.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I think that would be fascinating too.

Or do you adjust, like, human behavior? If this person over there is playing tight, maybe I loosen up and vice versa. If they're playing loose, then I tighten up, you know, whatever. Or can they blast like that?

[Dustin King]

Yeah, yeah. It's just like those, you know, those autonomous buses. Have you seen the article about the buses in Sweden where they go into the traffic circle, there's four of them at once, and they get stuck, Nobody

[Joe Scales]

can move, no way.

[Dustin King]

Yeah, it's happened. It's happened twice now. So, you know, does that same kind of thing happen with these AI players at the poker table? All of a sudden nobody calls just. Because if their goal is to make money, you know, and they find that there's ways to lose, do they just stop playing? Basically?

[Joe Scales]

That's hilarious. I have to. You have to send us the article or. Or something on that because that's. That's fascinating. I want to read more about that.

Yeah, I do. And that's. Therefore, I feel like that is the beauty in learning more and being aware is just. It's. If there's a curiosity to what can it do to help, I'm all for it. There's always going to be the curiosity of what can it do to take advantage. I think we talk about this often. Right. But it is neat to see it in action. And I would be curious too, Dustin, as more it learns, is it going to glitch out or is it going to improve its knowledge and be able to predict or change its pattern?

Yeah, I mean, it really comes down to it's a good tool.

Yeah.

But it's nothing more than that.

Well, and is it pulling in gto? Like, is this one of those things that people are going to get afraid of, like it's going to crack the code and everybody's going to know what to do or.

Well, not meta, apparently.

Fair. Fair. But they've just started like they're baby players.

True.

You know.

Yeah. I don't know. We'll have to see. I think it could lead to more training use. Like we could use it more in training, which I think this is. That's kind of how I came across the article was because Victoria lives.

Oh, Octopi Poker.

With Octopi Poker was talking about these, these bots and how they played and kind of analyzing that, which she is. She's all about these. LLM.

Well, yeah, because I mean, they're using it on Octopi Poker right now. One of the ways that you can sit down and play at a table, like you can review hands and you can actually say, okay, if I was Daniel Negrano in this particular spot and I played it this way, how would it, how would it play out? Right. So they're using AI to be able to, to give you those simulations or situations, which is really nice because ultimately what I know about Victoria and Act 5 poker is it's just they're, they're out there to help you learn. And if you can use it as a tool to learn, why not utilize it 100%? So well, we've got some exciting news also about New York City. There's the drama of casinos in New York City, which is pretty close to you.

Right. Give us some good insight on this one.

Yeah, I wonder if you're, if you're hearing any grumblings or excitement about this, but there's been several proposals and they're getting like one step closer to construction because there's three proposals out there. They've been submitted to the Gaming. Gaming Commission. Yeah, I'll rattle off some numbers because we did a little research on this. There's a $4 billion proposal for the Ferries Point golf course in the Bronx. And 8.1. Okay, yes, correct. 8.1 billion proposal at MET Park. So it's going to be next to Citi Field. This has a very close Las Vegas A's feel because it seems like they're going to put in a hotel or performance venue, retail shopping, all sorts of stuff going on there. And then there's another option and proposal on the table for them to consider, which is a multi billion upgrade to Resorts World Aqueduct in Queens. So three different spots, I think Times Square is out, but Queens, Bronx or the Citi Field that are up for grabs.

That Resorts World 1, is that a racino now?

[Dustin King]

Okay, yeah, so that'd be an upgrade. And then the one by Citi Field, that's a hard rock project, right?

[Joe Scales]

I think that's true. Yeah.

[Dustin King]

Yeah, that, that proposal looks beautiful.

[Joe Scales]

Any excitement from your players? Have they mentioned that they would go into the city for that or take the train? I mean, you can hop on the train right in downtown Schenectady Right.

[Dustin King]

Yeah. Honestly, I think upstate New York and New York City are kind of worlds apart.

[Joe Scales]

They are.

[Dustin King]

I don't think a lot of upstate people voluntarily go to the city if they don't have to. So I'm sure there's plenty of people who will go and, you know, check it out just to see it. But yeah, I think we, we try to stay out of the city as much as possible.

[Joe Scales]

I bet.

Yeah. So the, I guess the good side to these being this step closer. Right. Well, first of all, the. The revenue from these are already.

Yeah.

Forecasted or factored into the. The state budget for 2026. And so the state is looking forward

to it because that's another thing that we found in our research is they're going to be doing things like increasing public transit, public safety initiatives. There's going to be infrastructure upgrades like green spaces, parks, roads, all the stuff that could come out of having a casino. Can, I think tip that scale of having one? Because I know lots of, lots of areas are like, we don't want a casino. But then there are benefits across your communities to being able to have one because they do generate quite the income for you.

So you may be able to answer this. Dustin, too, is like once it gets to this point in the process, it would take something pretty drastic to derail it, right? At this point.

[Dustin King]

Yeah, I would think so. I mean, they've already all passed the community advisory boards. They're just waiting for the state, you know, the gaming commission to give it the final go ahead. I think at that point, you know, they all start breaking ground or, you know, working on their upgrades. Yeah. I think something major would have to happen, you know, some sort of scandal or something that was, you know, hidden that, you know, later came out for it to be derailed. But I think once it's, you know, once it's approved, I think they're all going to be good to go.

[Joe Scales]

And the good news for all three of these approvals is there's three approvals available.

Right.

So it seems like they're just waiting for that final stamp, which is exciting to see what could be done.

Yeah.

[Dustin King]

Which should come by the end of the year. I know that they did reserve the right to go a little bit into next year with the approvals, but, you know, there's three available and there's three left. So, you know, what are we waiting for?

[Joe Scales]

Right.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

I bet that's what everybody else is thinking, too. Well, we're so glad you could join us. I do want to remind People, the triton series and WSOP paradise kick off. Well, actually kicked off yesterday, December 4th. That'll be running through December 11th. WPT back at the Wynn, December 7th through 19. The women in Poker Winter Festival is happening at Resorts World December 8 through 12. And last but not least, you've got the Mini Electric Series happening in Schenectady, New York, and lots of other exciting stuff coming up.

Yeah. So a lot to look forward to, a lot to. To dig into. Can't wait to see. Start seeing some of the results from those as well.

Yeah, let us know. Let us know where. What's happening as the series goes on. We'd love to give folks a shout out here on the podcast and if we can toss them in the magazine as well. So we'd love to have that.

[Dustin King]

Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of shout outs, one thing I know Joe mentioned earlier when we were talking and. Al, you remember Shauna.

[Joe Scales]

Yes.

[Dustin King]

Yep. So, as I told Joe, Shauna was the most recent winner for front of house here at Rivers for Rivers finest.

[Joe Scales]

Well deserved, Very well deserved.

[Dustin King]

She got a nice dinner out of it, a little bit of cash, and she'll be in the running for the annual winner for the company. So good luck to the show. I love to hear number one.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. And I'm not surprised that Rivers is taking care of their people and giving them a pat on the back and a shout out in that. That way. But I'm over the moon, excited for Shawna because that woman is all over the place at once and I feel like loves what she does and it shows. It just shines through her every day that she's there. She's there to work and she's there to be there for the players. And you couldn't ask for a better person in your poker room.

Right?

[Dustin King]

I agree.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. That's awesome. Well, you'll have to let us know for sure how that plays out. But other than that, did you have anything else you wanted to add in there?

[Dustin King]

You know, we miss you guys. I know you guys can't make it this coming week, but you know, we'll have more Electric City mini events next year. And of course, we're already planning the main event for September of 2026. So I hope we'll. We'll see you guys soon.

[Joe Scales]

We hope so as well.

We'll be back there for sure.

Absolutely. As always, guys, it's a pleasure being around the table with you.

Likewise.

[Dustin King]

I agree.

[Podcast Narrator]

Now it's time for Call the Floor with Elliot Schechter.

[Joe Scales]

Elliot Schechter. Joins us each week to say how he would rule on situations that come up in year games. And he's with us again this week. Elliot, how's it going?

[Elliot Schechter]

Things are going pretty nicely. I'm doing well. How you doing?

[Joe Scales]

Good. It's. It's definitely turned toward winter here, so slick roads, all that kind of stuff. I hope everybody's staying safe.

[Elliot Schechter]

It's winter here too. It's 52 degrees.

[Joe Scales]

Someone called that spring.

[Elliot Schechter]

Yes.

[Joe Scales]

Autumn.

[Elliot Schechter]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Hey, but we do have a call to floor this week sent in by Jason Shut. And he says now one of the things he loves about poker is the table talk and the hand that he submitted. He said he wasn't in this hand, but I was listening to an older gentleman's story and wanted to see how you would rule. Elliot. He says the story goes that he was up against a young megalomaniac and they were heads up on the river. For some reason. The older gentleman thought he was beat, but the villain tabled his hand first. The older gentleman saw the villain's cards and realized he won. And in his excitement, he slammed his two cards onto the table. One of the cards flew off the table and hit the ground and the other card remained on the table. And he says, I don't remember if the card was face up or face down. Regardless, the villain immediately called the hand dead. How nice of him.

[Elliot Schechter]

Yeah, very helpful.

[Joe Scales]

Obviously the older gentleman disagreed and the floor was called over. He says the floor did rule in favor of the villain, but was curious how you would.

[Elliot Schechter]

I would rule this much differently. This is the misapplication of a rule and the application of a rule that may not exist. Now, let me start out by saying that it's very possible that some casinos still have a rule where a card on the floor is dead no matter what. And this is very likely a holdover from the days of deal your own poker where the players dealt to themselves. And it was very likely to find cards on the floor all over the place. They weren't cleaning up until the games were broken because the players didn't want to miss a hand waiting for people to clean up under the table. If you've ever seen a pan game, a virtually dead game now, but old ladies would play it down in California, Southern California. And it wasn't the eight decks and slow moving game. Play a combination poker and rummy, more rummy than anything else. But it wasn't a good pan game if there wasn't 20 or 30 cards on the floor.

[Joe Scales]

You said pan like P A N That's correct.

[Elliot Schechter]

Pan, short for pangini, which is not spelled how it sounds. Very old game, virtually dead. There may be a pan game going once a week now. Used to be an everyday thing, even in Las Vegas. Back to poker card on the floor. The standard we use for, for declaring a hand live or dead is whether it is both identifiable and retrievable. And it certainly seems that his card on the floor meets both of those standards in spades. A rule for a card on the floor previous prior to showdown is generally on the deal. If a, if the dealer deals a card off the table by accident, it is taken out of play, regardless of whether it was face up or face down. Any card off the table on the deal is replaced. And obviously if too many cards are dealt off the table, it's a missed deal and you shuffle up again. That doesn't apply to the showdown. The action's dead. He wasn't trying to throw his card off the table. It was an accident. We know it was his card or we should know. Unless there's other cards on the floor already, in which case, what is everybody doing? But yeah, this makes no sense. Once again, even if, if the, the hosting operation has a rule where cards on the floor are, are immediately dead, this is very technical and not very logical. The goal is to, number one, make sure the best hand gets the money, and number two, that the outcome is fair for everyone, or at least as many people as possible. This was only fair to the person who didn't have the best end and not fair to anybody else.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elliot Schechter]

I would have ruled the hand live if need be. I would have reviewed footage to make sure that that was absolutely the card. But yeah, I see no reason to not give the, the best hand, the pot here.

[Joe Scales]

Right. And that. I'm glad you said that about the cameras because as you were talking about older games then that's the first thing that popped in my head is we have technology now that, that maybe we didn't have then that you can actually go to and say, okay, that was definitely his card here, or it wasn't,

[Elliot Schechter]

and we're in the HD era. I mean, for most of my career and in poker room leadership and management, we've had full HD available to us through surveillance. At the beginning of my career, it wasn't the case. We were still using slightly older technology, but now is not the case. I couldn't think of an operation that doesn't use full HD now. There's no reason not to be able to verify this. It just doesn't make sense.

[Joe Scales]

Right. Well, if you take that out of the equation, though, does your rule change or does it still stay the same? If you, if you're not able to go to a camera, it's going to stay. Do you still rule the same way? Yeah, yeah.

[Elliot Schechter]

There's going to be too many witnesses, there's going to be too many players or, or, or team members that can actually point to the card and say, yeah, it came from that table or it came from that person. I. And again, I love how people will try to interpret the intent of someone, except when an obvious interpretation would actually, you know, be consequential. I meant to do this. Well, you didn't make it clear in this case. The intent was there. Now, we've said this many times, don't be cute, don't be fancy, don't be stupid. When you're showing your cards, just simply turn your hand over and put it on the table. Don't do anything silly. Don't do anything that can result in a ruling having to be made. Don't do anything that can result in your card being off the table. Just don't.

[Joe Scales]

Right. Yeah. Far be it for me to want to take the emotion out of the game. I get being excited, especially when you're like, oh, you know, I'm sure I'm beat here or whatever, but, but you still there. The whole game is kind of revolves around this taming of your emotions. So just tame them for a little bit longer maybe.

[Elliot Schechter]

But again, the cards should never leave contact with your, with your person, whether it's your hands or, or arm. It should never leave contact until you've received the pot. So slamming them down implies that you're letting them go in some fashion. Don't. Don't let them go. Your cards are the claim on the pot. Don't let them go.

[Joe Scales]

Right. I, I just, I always find the, these cauliflowers, it's, it's another one of those kind of running themes where when somebody knows that they have the losing hand, they just hope somehow they're going to be able to declare the other person's hand dead. Right. And I just hate that that is. Is even a possibility. You know, I hate that that there it is possible for the losing hand to win on a technicality kind of thing. And I know, you know, we've talked about it a million times how you try to not make that the case. Sometimes there's, you know, there's just no other way to do it. But, but if there is a way, then obviously that's the route we should take.

[Elliot Schechter]

Absolutely. At the tda, we've managed to agree to eliminate most applications of technicalities and allowances for it. We've done a really good job of promoting the common sense route and making sure that when all is said and done, the winning hand gets the pot. Most cash game rules have accounted for that too. There are still some rooms that are still using older rule books and sets of rules that are designed to overly define the border between right and wrong, good and bad, legal and illegal. And the result is that all you've done is give the scofflaws, angle shooters and the like a much more defined area in which to operate as opposed to. Yeah, shoring up the defense of the people who actually follow the rules and pay attention and, and are trying to do the right thing. You're. You're giving the advantage, unintendedly, I think, to the people who are going to willingly shoot angles and ply their technicalities to win the pots as opposed to, you know, actually playing the game Right.

[Joe Scales]

I guess the, the two pieces of. I guess the silver lining. Two pieces of silver lining here. One, if this would have been ruled differently, if it would have been ruled in the older gentleman's favor, then, Jason, you wouldn't have had the story to tell.

[Elliot Schechter]

This is true.

[Joe Scales]

But also, but also, I'm sure that this probably led to the older gentleman thinking about that when it comes time to show his cards in the future. So hopefully he's not making the same mistake again either. But all in all, it doesn't sound like the floor got this one right. And yeah. And Jason, that's a great discussion. I appreciate you sending that in. And absolutely, Elliot appreciates your. Your breakdown again, fine. Welcome. If anyone has a Call the floor that they would like to know how Elliot would rule, send it to podcastnetmagazine.com and just to shore things up just real quick, I know last week was Thanksgiving, but I do want to say, you know, thank you guys for sending all these in. It's what keeps the show going. So really appreciate you guys sending in these call the floors and the Hands of the Week and things like that. So keep them coming.

[Elliot Schechter]

Please do. Thanks, Elliot.

[Joe Scales]

We'll see you next week.

[Elliot Schechter]

Looking forward to it. I'll see you then.

[Podcast Narrator]

Let's break it down with Hand of the Week.

[Joe Scales]

Welcome to Hand of the Week, where Patrick, our resident fish, and I dive into listener submitted hands each week. We tackle everything from questionable bluffs to hero calls and the hands that make you scratch your head Whether you're looking for strategy tips or you just want to see if you would have played it any better, we've got you covered. Patrick, how's it going? Hey.

[Patrick]

Pretty good, my friend. How are you? How's Thanksgiving?

[Joe Scales]

I am good. Thanksgiving was good. Lots of food, lots of leftovers, lots of football.

[Patrick]

The only way it should be a lot of good football. We'll get to that in a minute. But yeah, listen, I survived my in laws, so everyone else, I, we without a hitch. No one burned to the ground, you know, bird or human. So we're good.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Hey, I know you mentioned last week everybody was going out Black Friday shopping and you were going to be able to just hang out. Did you catch the game there on Friday?

[Patrick]

Yeah, we, we got to catch a lot of games. I, I will address the fact that my Virginia Tech cookies absolutely finished one of the worst seasons ever. All, all, all hail James Franklin and everything that's going down there. But I just wanted to address, and I don't know if you're ready to talk about it yet, but have you seen the divisional standings in the NFL?

[Joe Scales]

You mean like who's, who's the top?

[Patrick]

Yeah, there's, there's a few teams up there at the top. There's, there's a team that you rooted for that's been there for a long time, like four or five good years.

[Joe Scales]

They're not at the top right now, but, you know, do you know what

[Patrick]

team is at the top? I do.

[Joe Scales]

See, their name just slips my, my mind.

[Patrick]

It's like we never left. It's the New England Patriots.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Did you know that we have a hand of the week this week?

[Podcast Narrator]

We do.

[Patrick]

We'll talk football next week. Yeah. Who sent in our hand of the week this week?

[Joe Scales]

Actually, Will Cameron sent this in.

[Patrick]

All right.

[Joe Scales]

And he's playing a 13 cash game. He bought in for 400. And he says, he tells himself, today is the day I play disciplined, responsible adult poker.

[Patrick]

I know that pep talk. I know that pep talk very well.

[Joe Scales]

He says, naturally, that lasts about one orbit. And he picks up ace of diamonds, jack of clubs in the cutoff, the middle position. And hijack players limp and it's to us.

[Patrick]

So we're, we're back to non disciplined, non adult Will. Okay, I, I, I've got 12ish probably in my head.

[Joe Scales]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, I, I'm 12 to 15 is probably okay. I was more in the 15 range. Definitely raising though, right?

[Patrick]

Definitely raising. Definitely three times plus Ace jack in the cut off.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, we've got two limpers there, so I want to go a little bit higher.

[Patrick]

Fair enough. Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

And I feel like the limpers, they're gonna be just insanely wide with their limping ranges. Right. So any suited ace, any Broadway cards, pretty much any small to medium pair suited connectors, one gappers. I mean, a whole bunch of things there. Right, right. And we're going to have position on them, so if we can get some of those other players out. So I want to go to 15 and see if we can narrow that field a little. Will says I raised to $15. Look at that. Disciplined, responsible, adult poker.

[Patrick]

We got a few more. We. We got a few streets to see first to see how this goes.

[Joe Scales]

He says the button calls, the hijack calls, and the other limper folds were off three ways. And I already feel like I'm about to donate. He says, Unfortunately, if we donate this way, we don't get the same kind of tax write off, so hopefully donating. The pot is $52. 15. 30, 40. Yeah. $52. The flop comes the jack of hearts, nine of hearts, four of clubs. So what do we. We got top pair, top kicker. There is a flush draw there. The limper checks 30.

[Patrick]

Okay, top pair, top kicker. I don't want to even mess around with that flush draw. And if so, you're going to pay to see it, pal.

[Joe Scales]

I actually, I feel like this is a dream spot. Like our hand crushes both of the calling ranges.

[Patrick]

Yes.

[Joe Scales]

I feel like anyway, we're ahead of the flush draws. A lot of their pocket pairs were ahead of as well. We still have that position advantage against one of the players. We took control pre flop, so I was thinking 30 to 35. So we're in the same range.

[Patrick]

It's not always that you and I are in the same boat. I like this.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, it's true. Yeah, I think we can fold out a lot of hands with that. The flush draw maybe still calls. Some sets will call, but for the most part, I think we can fold out a lot of weak hands here. Will says, I tell myself, don't get cute. Just protect your hand. So I bet 25. So close. He's in that range. The button snap calls and the folder or the limper folds, leaving us heads up. The pot now is $102 and the turn is the three of spades. So the board is jack of hearts, nine of hearts, four of clubs, three of spades, 75. Okay, this is where our paths separate.

[Patrick]

Why though? I don't want to see any more cards. I wouldn't mind taking it down right now.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I get that. I'm either betting small or I'm checking. I don't want to go big. A snap call. It does feel like it's kind of a draw.

Okay.

So on one hand, I don't want to give them a free card, but if I bet my. Am I going to get them to lay down a flush draw? I don't know. And if they have. If they have a set, then we're just getting ourselves in trouble. If we can't get them to lay it down, we're just giving them money that we don't need to. So also, betting small might. I'm just talking through this right now. If we're. If we bet small, it might induce a raise. So I think I. I'm probably going check here and plan on calling most bets.

[Patrick]

I was just gonna ask that. So if you're. Are you calling or if you bet small and you catch a raise, are you calling it?

[Joe Scales]

I don't know. They. That's the thing. That's why I think I want to check and call their, their whatever bet here. Unless it's something crazy. But, you know, if, if I was going to bet probably be 45 bucks, you know, and, and so if they bet and somewhere around half pot, then I can call that for sure.

[Elliot Schechter]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Will says this card shouldn't change anything, but I don't want to hand the button the pot by checking, so I bet 45.

[Patrick]

Unreal

[Joe Scales]

enough pressure to matter. I hope he tanks. Really tanks. Then bumps it up to 120. Called that, didn't I?

[Patrick]

So he's got a set.

[Joe Scales]

Maybe it's a lot for a draw.

[Patrick]

He's not playing. Non4

[Joe Scales]

does feel like it's some kind of big hand right now. Right. I felt like the snap call was him saying he was on a. On a draw, like the flush draw. But bumping it up here is exact. This is exactly the place where they would bump it up with a set. I feel like they wouldn't have done it on the street, but this free. Yes. So what. What are you thinking?

[Patrick]

I mean, I. My gut says with that response that he's coming in with with a set, he's got nines or fours. I mean, very definitely.

[Joe Scales]

Those are definitely in his range, right?

[Patrick]

Yeah, I mean, he could be on a draw. I would imagine if he's. If he's on a heart draw, he's probably got the ace. Unless you're sitting on like, you know, 8, 10 of hearts and you're sitting on a straight end. Flush draw or straight flush draw, you get a lot of outs and you're feeling good. I mean, that's unlikely, but it's there. I want to play.

[Joe Scales]

You want to play?

[Patrick]

All right, I want to play.

[Joe Scales]

I have. I have been called a nit the last two weeks. I think.

[Patrick]

Three.

[Joe Scales]

Three weeks.

[Elliot Schechter]

Three weeks.

[Joe Scales]

Who's counting?

[Patrick]

I. I don't know. I just got radioed in by one of the listeners. So,

[Joe Scales]

yes, I know that I've been called the net the last few weeks, but I. You're not feeling afraid to lay down the best hand here either? Because I think in the long run it's the better decision for making money because we've got another streak coming up and probably facing another bet. What are we hoping for?

[Patrick]

Anything other than a. A heart or, you know, from 8. And Ace as a king, if it comes out somewhere in the middle, is not a heart. If, if a non heart comes. I, I make sure.

[Joe Scales]

You just said you thought they were on a. On a. On a set.

[Patrick]

But I know that I went. Well, you're right. Just. What, are you keeping receipts over there? All right, yeah, you're right.

[Joe Scales]

All right, but you're. You've already put the call in, man.

[Patrick]

I've already called. This is.

[Joe Scales]

This is.

[Patrick]

This is why we get in trouble, Joe.

[Joe Scales]

I don't know what this we is. I'm saving my 75, me and everything

[Patrick]

else that's going on in here. See, I think three new things afterwards. Okay, so I've already called. I'm gonna. I'm gonna have to play this out. What's our friend Will do?

[Joe Scales]

Will says my brain immediately divides into three arguing personalities.

[Patrick]

See, we. He gets it. Will gets it. I got three of us up here.

[Joe Scales]

He says paranoid me, hopeful me and math ish me.

[Patrick]

Okay, Paranoid me says that they've got a set.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

He says I'm dead hopeful. Hopeful me says that another jack's gonna come out.

[Joe Scales]

Hopeful me. He read my smallish bet is weak and just wants to push me around.

[Patrick]

Well, fair enough. And what was the other me?

[Joe Scales]

Mathish Me.

[Patrick]

Mathish. Yeah, I'm not very good at math.

[Joe Scales]

Mathish me says could be hearts, maybe Queen 10. Semi bluffing. I end up calling. Not confidently, but calling. So now there is $306 in the pot. And the river is the king of spades.

[Patrick]

Fold.

[Joe Scales]

So the board just proactively folds. Nine of hearts, four of clubs, three of spades, king of spades.

[Patrick]

He made it straight.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, that card kind of ruins Your day, doesn't it?

[Patrick]

I mean, it ruins everything about it. Check and then fold.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. The only good thing here is that the flush missed.

[Patrick]

The flush missed.

[Joe Scales]

We didn't improve. King, queen made a higher pair. Queen 10 made the straight. I feel like they could have snap called with king queen. Especially with the king Queen of hearts. That. Yeah, the. That missed flush draw is all we beat. Basically at this point.

[Patrick]

That's it. Queen 10. We lose two. Well, it could be ace queen, but they wouldn't have snap called. Yeah, I don't. There's not a lot. There's far more hands that we lose to than we win. So you check and you let them push a bunch of chips in and then you toss in your cards.

[Joe Scales]

Okay. Yeah, I'm with you. Check. Fold here.

[Patrick]

And it cost me extra 120.

[Joe Scales]

Say that again.

[Patrick]

It cost me an extra 120 to see the river.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Will checks and the button bets 180. So. Yeah, I mean, that's enough to get us to fold, right?

[Patrick]

Yep.

[Joe Scales]

Will says, I'm in the tank and my thoughts turn into a mess because

[Patrick]

you're drowning in that tank wheel. I've been there many times.

[Joe Scales]

He says, Great. Queen 10 got there. If he had hearts, he missed. But who blasts missed hearts for $180? Nobody value bets worst Jack X here. That part's easy. Is he ever bluffing when the king hits, he shouldn't be. Maybe. People do weird things. All of this is going through my head. I start to call, I start to fold. I have an internal monologue questioning every decision in this hand. He says, eventually I pick the wrong play because. And in parentheses, he says, I know you read these in real time, so I'm not telling you which wrong play until after you answer my question.

[Patrick]

Oh, that's very demanding, Will. All right, let's hear the question. Joe, be happy to answer this.

[Joe Scales]

He says, given the turn, raise and that nightmare river. Is there any version of this hand where continuing is actually the right move? And what clues should I be paying attention to in game? So I'm not just lighting a hundred dollar bills on. Just lighting hundred dollar bills on fire.

[Patrick]

Based on how the villain has played, no. The only recourse you have now is to fold. A set beats you. Either one, nines or fours. Again, I guess it could be jack, but not likely. But a set beats you. Queen 10 gets there. The betting pattern says that you are beat across the board except for a massive bluff. And it's okay to fold to a bluff.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. And I would also say that the average 13 player is not bluffing here.

[Patrick]

No. Unless you're trying to go home.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, yeah. So you say, is there any version of this hand? Yes. There's a version against some maniac that you've seen show up on the river with some bluffs. Right. Then maybe it's a positive play to call there or, you know, whatever. Which. That would be the only one, though. Like, in this particular spot. I don't feel like calling is the right play here. Which brings us to the second part of the question. You should always be asking yourself a series of questions mainly centered around how often have I seen this exact person played this type of hand this way?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

If a random live player tanks and then raises after snap calling and you only have top pair, top kicker, it's probably going to be a tough spot to make money 90% of the time.

[Patrick]

Yep.

[Joe Scales]

But in. If you're up against some maniac and you've seen him show down, whatever the. This is why it's important to pay attention. Right. Pay attention when you're not in a hand because 100%. See how they see him showing down bluffs on the river. Then, then maybe it's okay.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Well, let's see what the outcome was here. He says. So after tanking forever on that ugly king of spades river, I ended up talking myself into a call. I didn't love it. I didn't even like it. The button shows the Queen of spades, 10 of spades for the turned draw that got there on the river. So, yeah, I play. I paid off the straight and my top pair felt like it evaporated into dust.

[Patrick]

Ouch.

[Joe Scales]

I think. I think Will needs to. To write for a living. Yeah. He says looking back, the turn raise should have screamed strength or a monster draw. And the river bet after the king of spades and probably should have shut down any hope that my pair of jacks was still good. But in the moment, my brain found just enough reasons to convince myself to be curious, and it cost me a solid chunk of my stack. That's the pain of 13 poker.

[Patrick]

Yep. He's absolutely right across the board, first and foremost. Yep. That is the pain of it going back to it. I mean. Yeah, I don't see any other way around. Unless you're folding on one of the last two streets.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I folded when it was still a draw, so I saved some money, but maybe it was too nitty. I don't know. Did, did the 180. Did that leave us anything behind, we started with 400, so the 180 and 120, that's 325 and 15 is 40. So we have $60 left. Gross.

[Patrick]

Talk about a sound bite. Gross. Yeah, well, that was a tough one. I mean, listen, 1,000% have been there many, many times, especially the rationale afterwards. But I think when you. When you get raised there, I. I think that's when you take a step back and say, okay, what am I really. What am I really calling with? Cause, you know, right. Top payer, top kicker. With that race at that time, there's a lot of things that are beating you and not a lot of out.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. That goes into those questions that you need to be asking yourself, too, like, what am I beating? What beats me? And how often are these people showing up with. With any of those kinds of hands? So. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sending that in. It's. It's tough. But that's why we. That's why we go through these. If anyone has a hand of the week that they would like to know how Patrick and I would break it down, send it to podcastyupmagazine.com Patrick, thanks again for doing it another week.

[Patrick]

My pleasure, my friend.

[Joe Scales]

We'll see you next week.

[Patrick]

Sounds good. I'll be here.

[Podcast Narrator]

It's time for Joe's one hour.

[Joe Scales]

I feel like I should address this. In the last few weeks of Hand of the Week, I have been labeled, rather loudly and enthusiastically, by the way, a knit. Like, I'm showing up to the table in a cardigan and bringing my thermos of decaf, right? I make a few tight plays, a few disciplined plays, and suddenly y' all are like, is Joe even in the hand, or is he just conserving energy? I get it. But let me defend myself. And more importantly, let me defend the forgotten, underappreciated, and deeply misunderstood art of folding. Because folding does get a bad rap. People treat it like it's a punishment or this walk of shame. But folding is actually the adulting of poker. It's paying bills. It's eating a salad when you really want a cheeseburger. It's choosing not to argue with that guy on Facebook who decided the earth is flat. It's not fun, but it saves your life. Your poker life. Anyway, I get that poker players love action. We want fireworks, bluffs, hero calls, all ins. Some kind of drama for Instagram clips. We want that ESPN Jack link's all in moment. Meanwhile, folding seems like that quiet librarian shushing you in the corner. But the secret Is folding is how you stay in the game long enough to do something profitable later. You ever see a guy that refuses to fold all night? His stat goes from 300 to 50 to 250, and then before you know it, he's rebuying. And it all happens so fast that everyone at the table feels like they're in that. That tornado scene of the wizard of Oz. And it never fails that they end up looking at you like, man, I don't even know what happened, buddy. The deck didn't do that to you. You did that to you. Meanwhile, I'm over here folding like a scene from that hoarder show. Does this hand bring you joy? No. Goodbye. And the thing is, folding is actually tough sometimes because you're folding into the unknown. You're folding into a future where someone will show you a bluff, and you're gonna have to pretend you're okay. So, yeah, I've been folding more. Call me a knit, call me tight, but folding is underrated. It's survival. It's discipline. It's self preservation for people like me that like to tell themselves they play aggressively when it matters. So, yeah, I fold sometimes, but it's really because somebody at the table has to act like an adult. That's today's one outer. And that's today's show. I'll see you next week, a team. And until then, I'll see you at the tables.

[Podcast Narrator]

The Ante up podcast is a production of Antioupmagazine.com. contact the show at podcastsnyupmagazine.com or call the show at 540-339-7741. If you'd like to advertise, send an email to editoryupmagazine.com sa.

[Sal]

Hey, Sal. Hank. What's going on? We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana, and it was so easy. Too easy. Think something's up? You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day. It sounds like Carvana. Just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right. Case closed.

[Joe Scales]

Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.