Chapter 4 Ep. 11b It’s Finally Back

Summary

Ante Up Poker Magazine – Chapter 4, Ep. 11b "It’s Finally Back"

Date: March 29, 2026
Host: Joe Scales
Co-hosts: Elle, Elliot Schecter, Patrick

Episode Overview

In this episode of Ante Up Poker Magazine, Joe Scales returns from the Arizona tour stop to bring listeners a blend of humor, heartfelt updates, commentary, and deep poker strategy. The show revisits classic listener scenarios, features a "Call the Floor" rules debate, celebrates community achievements, and presents a compelling Hand of the Week breakdown—while also sharing personal stories about life on the poker road and what the return of the WSOP to ESPN means for the game.

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Key Discussion Points

Arizona Poker Tour Recap & Personal Updates

[03:01–05:32]

• Joe and Elle share stories from a whirlwind 10-day Arizona tour stop, including their exhaustion from travel and an unexpected family medical emergency.
  • Elle: “We are human, just like you all listening. And sometimes your life doesn’t always… it’s full of surprises.” (03:45)
• They mention caring for a family dog, dealing with hospital visits, and being late with the episode.

Table Talk: WSOP Returns to ESPN

[05:45–08:57]

• Heartfelt celebration and nostalgia as the World Series of Poker (WSOP) returns to ESPN.
  • Elle: "Poker is going home." (05:49)
  • Joe recalls watching the WSOP late nights in the ‘80s–2000s and how pivotal that coverage was:
    • “We grew up watching ESPN air the World Series… that’s what gave us the itch to go, hey, let's play some cards…” (06:17)
  • Elle expresses hope for broader exposure and new faces in commentary.
• ESPN's plans include 100+ hours of coverage, three simultaneous feature tables, and live broadcasting of the Main Event’s final table (July 2 – Aug 5).

The Lodge Poker Room Raid and Texas Uncertainty

[08:57–13:50]

• The Lodge, a prominent Texas poker room, remains indefinitely closed after a high-profile raid.
  • Elle: “Closed, indefinite indefinitely. Which is like devastating to the 200 plus employees…” (09:06)
• Joe and Elle discuss speculation: money laundering, illegal gambling, and paperwork issues related to large cash transactions.
  • Joe: “According to the search warrant, they were investigating allegations of money laundering, illegal gambling…” (09:30)
  • Emphasis on community support: listeners are encouraged to help affected employees.
• They reflect on the impact across the Texas poker scene, the messiness for players with chips at the Lodge, and the possibility it may be part of a wider story for Texas poker.

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Table Talk: Arizona Poker Action & Community

[13:51–18:58]

• High praise for Lone Butte poker room and tournament director Tia, including cleanliness, efficiency, structure, and player experience.
  • Elle: "I was just very impressed with how everybody works together. The whole ecosystem of the room, the acoustics… tables, the way things are cleaned up. It was just fantastic." (14:55)
• Celebration of Deepa Shah, a female player who satellited into the main event and won—all while being short-stacked against tough competition.
  • Elle: "Massive shout out to Deepa Shah… you played your game and you stayed strong and you stayed confident." (15:58)
• Mention of runner-ups and notable players: Dominic Brazier, Sammy Matt, Stephen Jones (who also made a Netflix appearance).
• Arizona’s player community is described as charming and deeply committed, especially to the annual Arizona Poker Championship.

Swag, Social Side, and the Patreon Game

[18:58–24:32]

• Elle talks about hands-on engagement at tour stops, making custom Ante Up hats and shirts for players.
  • “I pressed, I think, close to 90 custom shirts and hats while we were there… expect more of that because it was super fun.” (20:11)
• Humor over being a spectacle in the poker room with her hat press.
• Both report on the “8-game mix” Patreon game:
  • What's Up Doc wins (again), with Joe in third and Bob (Chopper) in second. Goddard takes the bounty.
  • "The Discord chat... so much quiet. We all have to concentrate way more than we normally would when we just play no limit." - Elle (22:25)

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Community Reflections & Poker Culture

[24:45–27:33]

• Joe and Elle reflect on the uniqueness of Arizona’s poker culture, the ambition to visit different global poker scenes, and the foundational work of TDA founders (Jan Fisher, Linda Johnson, Matt Savage, David Lamb) in establishing poker standards worldwide.
  • Elle: "The effort that those four that laid the foundation for now is just phenomenal." (25:43)
• Shared appreciation for internationalization of poker rules and the education provided by organizations like the TDA and the World Poker Federation.

Casino News: Player Appreciation Month

[27:40–28:21]

• Rivers Casino Schenectady, NY, is offering free drinks for poker player appreciation month.

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Poker Rulings Deep Dive: "Call the Floor"

[28:51–50:52]

The Controversial Hand

[29:42–35:22]

• Listener David Musclewhite submits a complex "Call the Floor" scenario:
  • A 1/3 NLHE hand where, after unclear verbal action due to earbuds, a player believed to have called is ruled as folded by the dealer and loses the pot (despite tabling the nut flush).
  • Confusion leads to multiple floor staff being called. Surveillance is checked; eventually, they rule to split/chop the pot—leaving both players upset.
  • Notable moment: “Blaine, it's not 100% his fault, right? Not even close.” – Elliot (35:22)

Elliot Schecter’s Ruling and Insights

[35:27–50:52]

• Key takeaways from Elliot’s analysis:
  • "Protect your hand and pay attention and don't do stupid stuff while you're in the hand. So seat 8 is guilty of a number of these things." (35:59)
  • Floors should make a definitive ruling, not just chop by default:
    • "We have to make a definitive decision. We can't just punt all the time." (36:29)
  • Even if technicalities (e.g., ambiguous verbal action, dealer error) arise, award the pot to the best hand at showdown unless overwhelming evidence justifies otherwise:
    • "I like the best hand at the showdown to get the money." (38:11)
  • Critique of management: three different floor managers, indecision, and chopped pot as a "cop out."
    • "By trying to appease everyone, you appeased no one... You lost 25% of your seated players because of this decision." (48:51–49:00)
  • Player error (wearing earbuds, unclear actions) and dealer/floor error both contributed; all parties share the blame ("Oprah-level distribution of blame"). (50:29)
  • Quote: "We did have an Oprah level distribution of blame. You get some blame and you get some blame and you get some blame." – Elliot (50:29)

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Hand of the Week: Ace-Queen Button Dilemma

[51:05–72:48]

Setup

[54:07]

• Listener Jerry Taylor sends in a 1/3 NLHE hand:
  • Effective stack: $465
  • Button with A♦Q♦
  • UTG (a tight, aggressive reg) opens to $15.
  • Jerry flats on the button.

Pre-flop & Flop

[57:03–61:16]

• Debate: 3-bet vs flat call on the button; Patrick prefers calling, Joe likes raising.
• Flop: Q♠ 9♣ 4♣
  • UTG $25 c-bet; Jerry raises to $80 (aggressive approach to protect against clubs).
  • Joe analyzes risk: “If they have the club draw, they're not folding... we're not chasing them away from the flush.”

Turn & River

[62:08–67:00]

• Turn: 2♦; Jerry bets $125 after a check, keeping up pressure.
  • Both hosts see the pros and cons—bet for value/protection versus the danger of running into a set or monsters.
• River: Q♥; giving Jerry trips.
  • Discussion: Is this a river to value-shove or check back with such a strong but potentially risky board?
  • Patrick advocates checking: “If he's been just sitting on his monster off the flop and then just paired the board. Yeah, then I'm okay. I lose. And I'm okay.”

Showdown

[69:03–71:19]

• Jerry shoves, villain snap-calls with K♣Q♣ (also trips, missed flush), Jerry’s A♦Q♦ holds to win a huge pot.
  • "For a moment I thought I was cooked… but my ace queen was good and I scooped a big one." – Jerry (69:10)
• Both hosts discuss the eternal struggle between missing value and overextending for thin value:
  • Joe: "Sometimes even when you get it right, there's that voice in your head, did I push too hard? And that's why hands like this stick with you long after the cards are gone." (71:04)

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Joe’s One Outer: Poker, Slumps, and Resilience

[73:24–78:04]

• Joe draws parallels between baseball and poker, reflecting on slumps, bad sessions, and the importance of discipline and mindset:
  • “Anyone can play well when they’re in that first part. That’s easy. That’s fun. But the players who last… are the ones who don’t let a bad session turn into a meltdown. They stay disciplined even when it doesn’t feel like it matters.” (76:13)
  • “Accept where you are, control your attitude, control your effort, and compete with whatever the cards have in store for you.” (77:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Elle (on WSOP to ESPN): "Poker is going home." (05:49)
• Joe (on TV poker’s impact): “You would go out to the bar and it would be on the TV… that’s where poker became poker for a lot of us.” (06:36)
• Elliot Schecter (on ruling): “We did have an Oprah level distribution of blame. You get some blame and you get some blame and you get some blame.” (50:29)
• Elle (on Arizona): "Arizona poker is a... charming community." (25:10)
• Patrick (on river action): "We have a lot of thoughts at night." (63:49)
• Joe (on poker & baseball): “That is how you break out of a slump. And more importantly, that's how you win in poker over the long term.” (77:21)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:01] – Arizona trip recap and family/life update
• [05:45] – WSOP returns to ESPN, mainstream poker nostalgia
• [08:57] – The Lodge raid and Texas poker room trouble
• [13:51] – Table Talk: Arizona poker room experiences
• [18:58] – Swag, Patreon mixed game, fun at the tables
• [24:45] – Reflections on poker culture and community worldwide
• [28:51] – Call the Floor: controversial ruling debate begins
• [35:27] – Elliot’s in-depth ruling and player/floor analysis
• [51:05] – Hand of the Week: Button with AQ, deep dive
• [69:03] – Hand showdown and analysis reflection
• [73:24] – One Outer: Mindset and overcoming poker slumps

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Episode Tone & Closing Thoughts

Classic Ante Up: a blend of light-hearted banter, warmth, and community. The hosts balance deep-dive analysis with empathy for the real-life ups and downs of poker, travel, and personal life. The episode delivers laughs, sharp strategic insight, and heartfelt advice—encapsulating why Ante Up remains beloved among everyday players.

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Contact & Community

• Send your Hands of the Week or Call the Floor scenarios to [e-mail]
• Want some custom Ante Up gear? Visit the shop at anteupmagazine.com

Next Episode: Dustin joins to discuss upcoming changes/news.

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Transcript

[Josh Spiegel]

Hey, I'm Josh Spiegel, host of the podcast Lunatic in the Newsroom. If you enjoy journalism that drifts into mild panic, wild overthinking, and a guaranteed nervous breakdown, Lunatic in the Newsroom is for you. It's news like you've never heard before. The only newsroom with a panic button. You'll laugh, you'll cry and gasp in horror as the show spirals completely out of control. It's not just news, it's emotionally unstable. Lunatic in the Newsroom. Listen today, take

[Podcast Promo Voice]

your seat. The cards are flying high. Shuffle up and deal at the Aces Lie longest running show. Yeah, we've seen it all. From the river to the rail, we answer the call.

[Joe Scales]

Hello, a team, and welcome back to another episode of the Ante Up Poker podcast where every hand is an opportunity, every every player is a friend, and every episode is a winning experience. I'm your host, Joe Scales, and as you know, we were out in Arizona for the last 10 days covering the Antioch Poker Tour stop. And while we were there, we made a very conscious decision to really focus on the players and everything happening in the room. Then when we got back, we ran into a little bit of a bump in the road, so we're a little late getting this episode out. This week we're going to revisit a past hand of the week and call the floor situation. And honestly, with the uptick in listeners we've had recently, these are some great ones to bring back. Perfect if you're new to the show and still worth another listen even if you've heard them before. And don't worry, we still got a brand new table talk and a fresh one outer coming your way. One last thing. You've heard us talk about Camp One Step Before. Their poker tournament is April 16, and there are still spaces to play if you're in the Chicagoland area. The grand Prize is a $10,000 seat to the main event, but they're also looking for some dealers. So if you're interested in doing that, contact Hannah. Her email is hsmithcamp1step.org it's one of our favorite charities and the charity tournament. This sends kids with cancer and their families to camp. So check this out. It's another great episode for you guys. And that's all I've got for now. So let's get on with the show. Welcome to the show.

[Podcast Promo Voice]

You're on the A team. Stack your chips and chase the drift. Joe's got the booth, his mic's on fire. Elle's got the laugh. She's Taking it higher.

[Joe Scales]

Elle and I are back around the poker table on Saturday with another dog.

[Elle]

Yeah. We have an extra set of four paws in our house. It's been quite the 72 hours. We have had an incredible. Well, we've had it. We've had an awesome 10 days in Arizona.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

And have found out we've aged to the point where red eye flight might not be our jam anymore. I felt like I'd pulled an all nighter like I was in college. I'm just. If I don't have a lot of pep in my step, I'm gonna ask for a little grace. And also, it's a hat day. Thank you, Lone Butte, for the new gear. Yeah. I think we just got hit with life.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Is all. Is all I'm going to say. We are human, just like you all listening. And sometimes your life doesn't always. It's full of surprises. There's some twists and turns that you just don't anticipate happening. So we came home, had zombie Thursday.

[Joe Scales]

Friday, we did still play the Patreon game.

[Elle]

We did. And we're going to chat about that. That was really fun, actually.

[Joe Scales]

It was.

[Elle]

And then Friday afternoon got an unexpected phone call. My stepmother fell in her front yard. My father was out on a motorcycle ride. And thank God for neighbors who stop when they think something might be wrong. Right? Yeah. So my stepmom has double knee replacements and has been working a little bit on her balance lately. And she fell and broke her femur. That's attached to her. One of her knee replacements. So we've spent quite the amount of time in the emergency room, in the ambulance, all sorts of things in the last 24 hours.

[Joe Scales]

She had surgery this morning.

[Elliot Schecter]

She did.

[Elle]

Phenomenal surgeon, amazing trauma team. And I mean, it just makes you pause. So the good news is surgery's great. She's just going to have a long recovery. The surgeon kind of set expectations that it's going to be a little while.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

So we have four new paws in the house for a little bit from my parents and an aunt visiting and just all sorts of things happening.

[Joe Scales]

So because of that, we're a little late. The podcast is coming out on a Saturday, so, you know, we still have a lot of things happening, a lot of things to talk about, and we want to get that news out as well.

[Elle]

Espn, let's go.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Elle]

I mean, that's just right out the gate. Everybody's excited and I. Poker is going home.

[Joe Scales]

Exactly. That's exactly what I feel like. It's. It's it's backed back home. It's like when your, your kids move away and come home to visit.

[Elle]

That's how you feel.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. I mean, if you think about ESPN used to air. We, we grew up watching ESPN air the World Series.

[Elle]

That's fair.

[Joe Scales]

For decades. Yeah, decades. You know, the 80s, 90s, 2000s, 20, 21, it switched. And so, you know, we grew up watching it at 2am you would go out to the bar and it would be on the tv.

[Elle]

That's true.

[Joe Scales]

So, you know, it wasn't just coverage. It was where poker became poker for a lot of us. You know, that's where what gave us the itch to go, hey, let's play some cards with our friends and let's, you know, buy that $20 set of chips from Walmart or whatever. And so I feel like this is kind of a full circle moment for us longtime players.

[Elle]

Yeah. But also what an, what an awesome opportunity for the game to be seen by so many more now.

[Joe Scales]

Exactly.

[Elle]

And I think that is going to be the figure appeal or the is. That's, that's where I am feeling and seeing and hearing the big excitement.

[Joe Scales]

Yes.

[Elle]

It is. Back on a major network where all eyeballs are able to access.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Which is super exciting.

[Joe Scales]

There's going to be like over a hundred hours of coverage of the WSOP of the main event. Yeah. And they're going to have three. Three simultaneous feature tables. They're gonna have the coverage start on July 2nd, which is day one A.

[Elle]

Okay.

[Joe Scales]

And then they'll run up until we get to the final table, take a little bit of a pause, come back on August 3rd, and then August 3rd through the 5th, it'll be the live final table.

[Elle]

So mainstream exposure.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, it's all coming down. Is it going to create like the big poker boom like we had after Moneymaker one? I don't. I wouldn't say that. But it is going to give some exposure that. That's been missing for a while.

[Elle]

Yeah. So I'll be curious to see what the commercials are. I'll also be curious to see if there'll be new sponsorships. That always just brings more things to the table when you're on a network that is, as widely known, well respected. And I'm also curious to see if there's going to be new commentary, if there's going to be any new faces or old voices or people that we, that you're used to seeing and hearing. It'd be really cool to have some folks from sports come over that would be Fun.

[Joe Scales]

That would be a lot of fun. Then in less exciting news than that, the lodge is not going to be opening anytime soon.

[Elle]

Yeah. Closed, indefinite indefinitely. Which is like devastating to the 200 plus employees that were there.

[Joe Scales]

You know, I mean, the raid happened on March 10th and so this has been going on for a while and I know we've talked about it every week since, but it's on everybody's mind

[Elle]

and everybody's radar and people are trying to fill in the blanks.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. What they've been doing, according to the search warrant, they were investigating allegations of money, money laundering, illegal gambling. So.

[Elle]

Right. They could potentially reopen. It's just not ideal. And it has not been recommended because they could still make further arrests or further seizures. So it's best for everyone really involved for them to remain closed for the time being and for this foreseeable future. I know this is rattling. It's like an earthquake through Texas. Like, what's going to happen? Does this mean other things for other poker rooms? Sometimes. You know, you probably heard me say this once or twice. Like it feels like somebody's out to get the lodge. We don't know. Everybody's speculating because we're not the ones directly involved. We can't have conversation with.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

Law enforcement.

[Joe Scales]

There's a lot of speculation out there. Right. No charges have actually been filed, which makes this even more interesting.

[Elle]

Right.

[Joe Scales]

Chad Holloway had a big post on X and he actually did his segment on the On Poker News podcast about his theory of it, which is really interesting. So, you know, his thought is this is more of not having them fill out the proper forms because if someone withdraws or deposits over $10,000, $10,000 or more dollars, then there has to be forms that are filled out.

[Elle]

And so could it just be as simple as that?

[Joe Scales]

It could be, you know, but if that is the case, that's still a serious crime to some degree.

[Elle]

Wow.

[Joe Scales]

So it would be enough to probably shut them down permanently. I don't know. All of that is speculation. All of that is, you know, up in the air. Nobody knows what is going to happen. But the bottom line is these 200 plus workers that were, that worked there, dependent on this for their livelihood. You know, they're out of a, they're out of a job right now. And so that's unfortunate. I know that someone started to go fund me for them. I'm sure that they will find work somewhere else as well.

[Elle]

And if you hear of other ways that, that people can get involved in supporting these folks until they get back on their feet. I think we've all been in a position where either we've been in a moment of transition or a moment of questioning or leaving one job, starting another. I mean, we're going through a family health event that causes more needs than were yesterday. So, you know, if you're listening and you know of a way that we can support those folks or there's always grassroots something, but it's gotta be shared. So we'd love to know what that is, and if there's any way we can share that information with others, we'd love to do that as well.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

I think the whole poker community, there's those out there that just want the gossip. There's those out there that just want to get it resolved. And I think the majority of us are like, we just feel for them. Right. And I also am like, gosh, it's like another hit to reputation. Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

You know, and. And there are so many great card rooms in Texas, and there are people that we know that play in them, and there are people that have played at the Lodge and gone. Like, I have never experienced anything like that there, and I don't even know how they could possibly even remotely have found fault. So it's a difficult situation all around, and really our hearts just go out to them and we hope they get some resolution, too.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. And it's not just the. The people that work there, like all. There's a lot of players that have ships that they right now are wondering how they can get those cashed in. So it's. It's a mess. But I. I feel confident it's going to get sorted out at some point.

[Elle]

It's going to be stuck in a holding pattern for a little while.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, they've already had to cancel a main event, major event there. So this is. This may not be a story about the Lodge. It may be a story about Texas poker. You know, we'll see and. And see how this shakes out for all of those other places. For sure.

[Elle]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

While things are uncertain in Texas.

[Elle]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Over at Gila river in Lone Butte, Poker is a lie.

[Elle]

Yeah. You can say that again. We may not have the most enthusiasm in our voice or pep on our step is meek. But let just tell you, the last two weeks has been amazing. And Tia runs a tight. Tia runs a awesome ship. I don't have the right even descriptor. I cannot even begin to tell you, finding out, you know, what Brownie shared with us last week and how she's really changed Poker in the valley, there in Phoenix. And then also just experiencing a well run room from the top down. Everybody's working together.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

Service the floor, the dealers, the check in desk, like you name it, security. I don't know how many times they came and changed those boxes.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

I was just in awe of that system because I'm not seeing that and it's not.

[Joe Scales]

I have not seen that done the way they do it. Yeah, yeah.

[Elle]

I was just very impressed with how everybody works together. The whole ecosystem of the room, the acoustics.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

The tables, the way everything's run, the way things are cleaned up. I mean it was just fantastic. I can't, I really can't even say enough about what we experienced.

[Joe Scales]

Well, let's talk about this picture that's behind us.

[Elle]

Oh, Deepa, Deepa, Deepa, Deepa. Let me just say I am super proud to announce that we had a female take down the entire main event. Whose satellite? Satellite.

[Joe Scales]

Satellite, yeah.

[Elle]

And was short stack actually the last three, the top three were short stacked for quite some time and came back. So it was a very exciting tournament, very well run tournament. And that's all we heard from players too is that they really appreciated the structure. They appreciated the time of starts and they appreciated how it was run. So could not be happier with that overall finish. She, I think this is the biggest

[Joe Scales]

score for her career according to him to mob. Yeah, this is their biggest one.

[Elle]

Yeah. And I'm feeling it ain't stopping here. Oh no, she's on a roll. She's on vacation right now. Good for her. She had already had planned a vacation and was heading out of town shortly after. You'll see her on the COVID of April's magazine. But massive shout out to Deepa Shah and how you conducted your play and you played your game and you stayed strong and you stayed confident and you played your game right. Really and truly. I just was most, most impressed with her.

[Joe Scales]

And then Dominic Brazier. Yes, he finished second. He was holding on, man.

[Elle]

Four bigs. He had four bigs left. And his facial expressions, I have so many pictures of him. Yeah, his facial expressions were hilarious. He does. I don't even think he knows. Like I don't even know either when I'm so animated. But his thoughtfulness in some moments I just enjoyed watching him play too. I think he and Deepa play pretty, pretty frequently together.

[Joe Scales]

They do.

[Elle]

So they were friendly. They were still competitive, right? Let me just tell you, still competitive.

[Joe Scales]

And then Sammy, Matt finished in third. He had a bigger stack than, than Dominic did. But ended up getting in a big hand with Deepa.

[Elle]

Right.

[Joe Scales]

And made a big, big call there. Yeah.

[Elle]

Cost him second place, but really also enjoyed watching him play. And then Stephen Jones made it to final table. He came in fourth runner. He's the runner up of 2023 main event. We were actually there.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

So it was really neat to see him. And, you know, he's always a riot to watch as well.

[Joe Scales]

And then he was also made a big run on the Netflix Squid game. Steven.

[Elle]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That's really cool to watch all of that go down too. So I think we're going to need to check that out. We haven't watched it, but it's also. I thought it was neat to watch it unfold at least on socials, like, and see all that.

[Joe Scales]

And it was also good to catch up with Jordan Griffin.

[Elle]

Oh, I loved him. Just walking in, playing with everybody else, catching up, checking in to see how his son was.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, yeah, he was. He was super. Just chill as. Just the same as he was when he was on the magazine in 25. 2025.

[Elle]

Same as he was when he, when he was runner up.

[Joe Scales]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Elle]

He just kind of same guy all

[Joe Scales]

the time level, you know. Yeah, it's. It's just, it's good seeing people that we've had on the COVID and seeing players that we meet in these tour stops in other places and being able to catch up with them, too. So that was fun. The whole room was filled with characters. Yeah. Genuinely good people, but, yeah, fun characters

[Elle]

who, let me tell you, are committed to the Arizona Championship because I don't know how many people we invited to join us on the cruise. You know me, can't stop, won't stop talking about that cruise and. But nobody from Arizona is coming on that cruise because they all are going to be at the Arizona.

[Joe Scales]

Arizona Poker Championship. Yes.

[Elle]

And I just love how committed they are to that event.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

I mean, like, it didn't matter who I asked a 1, 2 player or somebody in the main event, they were like, oh, no plans. We have. We have that week planned. And I was like, oh, it's true.

[Joe Scales]

It is true. So the big question on everybody's mind, I'm sure, are your hands sore from all those patches that you were pressing on hats and shirts?

[Elle]

No. No. But it was very funny to be on, like, display. Like, I felt like I was a little spectacled in the poker room, which I'm fine with having conversations with anybody. However, I just want to apologize to any dealers that or players where your. Your. Your play slowed down. Because every time I brought out that hat press, people just would stop and stare, and I'd be like, I'm just making hats over here. Like, I'm just. I'm just pressing patches on hats.

[Joe Scales]

It's also kind of funny, and it was so fun because you watch them, watch the whole process, and then they'll kind of mosey over and be like, so, what's going on here?

[Elle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Scales]

What can I get? What. What are you giving away?

[Elle]

Yeah. And if you're not sure what we're talking about, if you haven't seen it on socials yet, we ordered some new patches, and then I ordered a hat press and blank hat. So we had bucket hats, we had baseball hats. We now have learned that we need trucker hats. I'm trying to get into this flat bill thing. I don't know. We'll see if it's. If it's my Persona or not. But people were bringing hats in, so I pressed, I think, close to 90 custom shirts and hats while we were there. And if you are at a Tour stop in 2026, expect more of that because it was super fun. If you have something of your own that you want me to put a patch on, I'm happy to do that. But we just. I just had fun that was. That I felt like I was in my element of creating, but also being in the poker room. And so it was really more to come. More to come.

[Joe Scales]

It was really fun. And it was fun to see a room full of our logo.

[Elle]

Yeah. Yeah. So custom hat, bar shirt, bar jackets. Yes. There's one on. On Depa, for sure. So more to come on that.

[Joe Scales]

And then we mentioned. We. We took that overnight trip back home and then later that evening had to play the 8 game mix patreon game, which I had no thoughts about going deep on that because I was like, I'm tired. It's probably going to be bad decision after bad decision. We actually, both of us played pretty well. Yeah.

[Elle]

I didn't get on the leaderboard, which I was really. That was my goal. And I. I really shoved too hard in a spot in a position that I should not have. But I thought I. I thought I played all eight. Okay.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Yeah. You really. Your game has really improved to where you're not as intimidated by a lot of these mixed games. So kudos for that.

[Elle]

Wish that had happened at the cash table in Arizona.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. But we had a great time. I always. I told him, I always say this in the Discord. Like when we play those mix games, the Discord Chat.

[Elle]

So quiet.

[Joe Scales]

It's so much quiet.

[Elle]

We all have to concentrate way more than we normally would when we just play no limit.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. So. But we do have to say congrats to what's up Doc? For taking it down.

[Elle]

Who always takes it down when it's like 2am Yeah, I bowed out. I was so tired. I was so I was like, I am going to bed. So.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Congratulations to all you all who stayed up late until 2 Eastern a.m. yeah,

[Joe Scales]

by the time I, by the time I made it to bed, it was, it was two o'. Clock.

[Elle]

So it was. What's up, Doc? Chopper.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, Bob Chopper. Who didn't chop so well.

[Elle]

Just kudos to him for that as well. And then was it you?

[Joe Scales]

And then I was third. Yeah. Who took the bounty And Goddard took the bounty. So congrats to him.

[Elle]

The bullseye's on. What's up, Doc?

[Joe Scales]

For the next game. Next game. He, he had the record for the longest and then he breaks his record by this one. So what's up, Doc? Is. Is committed. Committed. Yeah, committed to the long wins.

[Elle]

To the long game. Not the short game, the long game.

[Joe Scales]

Exactly. Goddard, by the way, you mentioned him getting the bounty. He, he was doing a really good job of isolating the bounty. So whenever, whenever the bounty was in there, USC 1991. Whenever he was in there, Goddard would, would raise and try and get him alone. But you know, I tried not to let it happen too much, but sometimes you don't have the guards to. You can't do it with Seven Deuce or whatever. Right. But. But he ended up getting the, the bounty. So that was awesome. We've still got to get next month's schedule.

[Elle]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

So we've got to look at the calendar and get that done. But yeah, other than that, I, you know, I'm, I'm glad to be home, but I, I'm already looking forward to August and getting on that cruise ship.

[Elle]

Yes. And hopefully possibly some others in between. We'll see. We still have some, some conversations to. To be had, but Arizona's got my heart right now, let me tell you.

[Joe Scales]

Oh, 100%.

[Elle]

My ankle didn't hurt. My allergies didn't bother me. My skin wasn't cracking.

[Joe Scales]

The sunsets were amazing.

[Elle]

The heat, the food.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Heart for some Arizona, let me just tell you. So we would love to be back.

[Joe Scales]

Yes, yes. I want to make that a stop every year if we can.

[Elle]

Well, in Arizona, poker is a, is a, is A charming community.

[Joe Scales]

Yes.

[Elle]

I think we both commented just being able to see how the game is played even just in the US worldwide. And that's like opening the door now for me to be like, okay, Europe, I would like to see. Europe, I would like to see. How it's played in Asia, I would like to see. I am so curious because the game is still the game. The TDA rules are still following the game most anywhere you play.

[Joe Scales]

Sure.

[Elle]

Thank you, microphone man, for doing the hard work. So quite honestly, like the hard work that was put in by those four founders. Jan Fisher, Linda Johnson, Matt Savage, David Lamb, let me just tell you, the hard work and effort, it is not glamorous, it is minutia, detail, paying attention, advocating education, working hard, hard, hard, hard. The effort that those four that laid the foundation for now is just phenomenal. But I'm, I am really intrigued and I'm loving seeing how people compose themselves, but also the communities they build right around the game.

[Joe Scales]

And just to your point, you know, it's not just in the US like the TDA has been going out because as part of the World Poker Federation has been going out to these other countries and you know, educating, getting things set up for the TDA there as well. So.

[Elle]

Right.

[Joe Scales]

The work continues.

[Elle]

Absolutely. It's not done yet. And I think, I think they have their sights set high and, and the determination and the foundation is there. And so all I can say is the little bit that's what I'm trying to get across is the little bit that we've been able to see and that we've been fortunate to see as our tour has come back, has been, has just blown me away. It's knocked my socks off and, and the amount that people study and are aware, I learned something new everywhere we go. And so I, I just, I have come home, we've come home to not what we anticipated, life wise, but like a full heart and still excitement for the next place.

[Joe Scales]

Right. And I know we're gonna have Dustin on next week to talk about, you know, some stuff.

[Elle]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Joe Scales]

That they have coming up and whatever. But I also saw, and I just want to shout out, this April is a poker player appreciation month there in Schenectady, N.Y. and the rivers Casino. If you are playing in Rivers in Schenectady, you have free drinks.

[Elle]

What drinks are you talking?

[Joe Scales]

Beer, mixed drinks, cocktails. Yeah.

[Elle]

So the cat's out of the bag. I'm gonna, I need to go call Junior, Senior, whatever his name is. What's, what's that? Guy's name. Oh, man.

[Joe Scales]

Yes.

[Elle]

So I gotta give them a shout and say have some for me. Cool. Nice.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. So that is a high note to end on. We'll talk more about that to to with Dustin next week. But other than that, as always, it's a pleasure being around this table with you.

[Elle]

Likewise.

[Podcast Promo Voice]

Elliot's wisdom cuts like a blade. Dropping true bombs with a poker parade. Big blinds, big stakes, raise it up. Let's make no mistakes.

[Joe Scales]

Elliot Schecter joins us each week to say how he would rule in situations that come up in your games. And he's with us again this week. Elliot, how are you?

[Elliot Schecter]

I'm doing pretty well, thanks. Things are good. How you doing today, Joe?

[Joe Scales]

I'm good. I notice you're, you're sporting the, the ante up wear there. Absolutely. I like it.

[Elliot Schecter]

Thank you. Me too.

[Joe Scales]

And if anyone wants some ante up gear, then go to our shop on antiopmagazine.com so there you go. There's the plug.

[Elliot Schecter]

Glad to hear.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, we've got to call the floor this week. That's sent in by David Musclewhite and the setup is pretty long. So if you have some points in here that you want to throw in along the way, just interrupt and we'll throw them in there as we go. But, but David is playing one, three, no limit hold'.

[Patrick]

Em.

[Joe Scales]

He's eight handed, made it to the river. Heads up. The players in seat one and seat eight are heads up in the hand now. The player in seat 8 is wearing earbuds in both of his ears. The river brought in the flush draw and it paired the board. Seat one bets. Seat eight raises, seat one tanks, then tells the dealer 100 on top. He doesn't say whether he put more in there, more chips in there if he just said it. But I'm assuming he put something, something in there. And now it's back on seat eight. Who takes out his earbuds, asks the dealer what's going on. The dealer tells him that seat one has raised it another hundred. Seat eight then puts his earbuds back in and tanks for a bit. Eventually he mumbles something. I'm in seat three and didn't hear what he said. The dealer announces fold. But seat eight just kind of sits there holding his cards and the dealer motions for him to muck his hand. Seat 8 finally flips his hand over and tables it, showing the ace high flush. The dealer then picks up seat eight's hand, mucks it, and then begins pushing the pot to seat one.

[Elliot Schecter]

All Right. Before you say another word, the dealer motioning to the player in Seat 8 could be signifying to the player in Seat 8 that the action is over. It's your turn to show. What do you want to do? It's up to you. I can see that happening. So the pot getting pushed here doesn't make a whole lot of sense just yet, especially after Seat 8 tabled his hand.

[Joe Scales]

Right. And it makes sense from here why there's the confusion, because he says, here's where the drama starts. Seat one and seat two both look surprised.

[Elliot Schecter]

And this is where the floor needs to be called, as the pot hasn't been fully pushed yet.

[Joe Scales]

Yes. Yes. C1 says to seat two, I can't believe that he folded the nut flush. Meanwhile, seat 8 asks the dealer what seat 1 had. The dealer says, he didn't show. And of course, Seat 8 asks, then why are you giving him the pot? The dealer says, you folded. You don't. He doesn't have to show. To which seat eight yells, I didn't fold. I called, and you took my hand and mucked it. The dealer says, I heard you say fold. Seat 8 argues, no, I said call. And that's when the dealer calls the floor.

[Elliot Schecter]

Better late than never.

[Joe Scales]

The floor comes over. Well, yeah. The floor comes over and the dealer explains the situation, tries to get one of the players at the table to say they also heard seat eight say fold. The player in seat four says he heard seat eight call, of course, me in seat three. So seat three and the player in seat five both say, we didn't hear him. Seat two said he thought seat eight folded because he never made a calling motion.

[Elliot Schecter]

I don't know what a calling.

[Joe Scales]

I'm not sure what that is. The floor decides that this was above his. Above his pay grade and went to get a senior, more senior floor.

[Elliot Schecter]

Sounds like a good idea.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. The second floor goes to the camera and comes back a couple of minutes later. He says seat eight was the aggressor, and since he tabled his hand, it's clear he was wanting to call, so he wins the pot. Now, seat one is upset.

[Elliot Schecter]

Sure.

[Joe Scales]

He says his face has turned red and he's shouting, but the dealer said he folded. Okay, now what?

[Elliot Schecter]

The dealer's not allowed to make mistakes, ever. The dealer's infallible. What the dealer says goes. That doesn't make sense to me at all either.

[Joe Scales]

Right. And seat one apparently admitted at some point to having a flush, so he

[Elliot Schecter]

would have lost the losing hand.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, so he says. At this point, there's a crowd starting to gather, including seat one's girlfriend, who is putting in her two cents, even though she is not even. She wasn't even near the table distance from the rail. C2 suggests that they just chop the pot.

[Elliot Schecter]

To be fair, this is not C2's business

[Joe Scales]

right now. A third floor comes over, unless the second floor leaves because, you know, he. Apparently he's getting pretty heated.

[Elliot Schecter]

Sounds like a really big one with seat one.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, they've got numerous floors for sure. Working this, the third floor decides to chop the pot. Okay, I love that reaction. Both seat one and seat eight rack up their chips and leave in a huff. Seat 8 tells the dealer, I blame you. This is your fault. Which the dealer graciously accepts.

[Elliot Schecter]

Blaine, it's not 100% his fault, right? Not even close.

[Joe Scales]

So David says, my personal thoughts are that clearly seat one had the losing hand, since his whole argument was that the dealer said seat eight folds. That is correct action. Not let him win a pot he had no right to.

[Elliot Schecter]

Well, I think by action, he means other people's actions or mistakes.

[Joe Scales]

Right, right. I also feel that seat 8 putting his headphones back in while on the river in a big spot was unwise. Ah, I would think you would want to hear everything.

[Elliot Schecter]

Yes. Now we're getting to one of the running themes on Call the floor is protect your hand and pay attention and don't do stupid stuff while you're in the hand. So seated eight is guilty of a number of these things.

[Joe Scales]

Exactly. He said. He does say chopping the pot felt wrong, but I understand just wanting to calm everything down. But at the same time, that rewards seat one for making a scene.

[Elliot Schecter]

Well, not just that.

[Joe Scales]

Can't wait to hear. Yeah, that's true. He says, can't wait to hear your thoughts on the matter.

[Elliot Schecter]

So this is a long post, so I'll have a few thoughts. I'll work my way backwards. Chopping the pot can only be a suggestion on the part of the operator, the floor, the person making the decision that money doesn't belong to the casino in any way, that money belongs to the players. We can suggest chopping to the pot, but when we make a decision, we have to make a definitive decision. We have to actually decide. We can't just punt all the time. This is not a court of law. This is a hand of poker. And we have to do something. We have to actually decide. Yeah, chopping the pot here is maybe not the worst suggestion, but we can't just dictate and demand that the pot be Chopped. We're not in the game. We merely collect payment for the providing of the game. Big difference. So while we're relied upon for expertise and fairness, we can't make a decision that literally divides up people's money. That's the opposite of what we should do. So then we have to go back a little bit further and to the result. Let's go to the end of the hand when Seat 8 didn't know what was happening and very correctly removed their headphones and asked. Well done. It then occurs to this player to immediately replace their their earbuds and go on as if everything's hunky dory when that's not a great assumption.

[Joe Scales]

Apparently not.

[Elliot Schecter]

I'm not a big fan of rewarding people for not paying attention and not protecting themselves, but apparently C1 didn't really have much of a claim on this pot. Seat 8 obviously thought they were intelligible when they were not. Obviously thought that they're stopping and asking what was going on was enough to protect themselves. When they really only made it halfway across the road, they pressed the button to activate the crosswalk. They got into the crosswalk and then when it started blinking red instead of hurrying up to the other side, they decided to just wait. So not particularly effective there. And I don't like rewarding players for not paying attention. But more than that, I like the best hand at the showdown to get the money right. There's no definitive proof that this player decided to fold to that raise, even though with the board pairing it's not out of the realm of possibility. Although in a 13 game, it's certainly incredibly uncommon at best. I'm not awarding seat one the pot based on the technicality of the dealer announcing fold and taking Seat 8's cards while seated was obviously incredulous and rather shocked. The dealers, unable to discern what was happening, should have been the time to stop the game and say, what are you doing? If they thought they were folding and then they started pushing pots, TD8 immediately spoke up and said, what are you doing? That's the time to call the floor right there. Not to wait a few seconds or a few minutes or however moments it took to actually get to that point. Yeah, these are some of the worst judgment calls we've got to make. As floors, as operators, as poker room managers, they're never easy. And again, it's what we're paid to do. We got to make a judgment call. The judgment is just not to have no action. If we let every dealer error decide the outcome of a pot, well, then, number one, players would obviously not be thrilled knowing that they were not in control of their destiny, when that's exactly what you play poker for. But number two, and I had this discussion with one of my colleagues just recently about a similar but not identical situation in which a dealer error would lead to either no action or splitting of a pot. And I made the point, which he didn't refute, that if we allow ourselves to base our outcomes on a dealer mistake, so say we actually miss dealing, given the money back, which is virtually identical to splitting the pot, then it occurs to me that a lot of dealers and, and I'm not trying to disparage my colleagues and, and dealers in the industry, but as dealers keep their own tips and they're definitely motivated by generating income in every possible moment they're dealing, it would occur to me that dealers would make mistakes in pots where the only players who are going to win are players that do not tip them, therefore negating the outcome, putting the money back and starting a new ham where they have a much better probability of getting a tip. That opportunity should not be allowed, it should not be possible, and should not be affected by and made real by our decisions.

[Joe Scales]

I guess the thing that bothers me with seat 8 is, and this is probably what the person was saying about calling action, throw a chip in, like, call throw a chip in. And then you obviously were making your intention clear. Well, and, I mean, you might have wanted to raise, but you definitely are putting money in.

[Elliot Schecter]

And Seat eight is under the impression that they said call clearly enough that they didn't need to move a chip, which is not 100% correct in any spot. You should always move some or all chips forward. When calling a bet, verbal action in turn is binding, but when it's unverifiable, you're in a whole mess of things. And many things like this can happen. So, yes, CD8 did not fully protect their hand, did not fully protect their place in the betting order, was not paying attention, and obviously did not make their intentions clear. So, yeah, CD 8 shoulders some blame here. That doesn't mean that they lose their claim on the pot.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Elliot Schecter]

We don't have to allow technicalities. Once again, this is not a court of law. This is poker. And when all is said and done, when the action is over, the best hand still supposed to get the money. Now, if there's a bet and no call, which a. Which Seat one is trying to prove, then, yeah, well, all is said and done, and we're not entirely clear on that here. And if this continues to happen every single time seat 8 is in the pot, the seat 8 is going to lose both the benefit of the doubt and likely the ability to play in the game. But in this instance, I'm not moving the pot away from C8. It's still, while not an outcome that thoroughly agrees with my views on player behavior and player comportment is still the best possible outcome in these circumstances.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, we've talked about that numerous times where we want the. We want the person that actually had the best hand to get the. The pot. It sounds like seat one admitted at some point that he had a flush, which means if you had the flush, you had a lesser flush because he had the nut flush. A seat eight did. So, you know, if he wouldn't have admitted that he had a flush there, then we don't know because.

[Elliot Schecter]

And I'm not so sure about that. I'll leave that to the other contributors who actually delve into the playing and contents of hands to weigh in on that. But even without knowing the contents of that particular hand, it still seems fairly obvious from the narrative that they were trying to use the rules of the game to win the pot, as opposed to, you know, the betting and showing of hands to win the pot, which is not the way the game is supposed to come to the players. Yeah, unless there's no other way to make a ruling, I'm not going to use the technical rules to award chips.

[Joe Scales]

I don't think that's ever going to be a good argument to get the pot. But at the same time, you know, if there's a situation where you just don't know what seat one has. Because before, because you handed your cards off as the dealer was pushing the pot to you. Well, now it's like, well, my cards are somewhere in that deck. And now you can't just say, well, dig my cards out, because obviously that's not going to be acceptable either, so shouldn't be. It's a mess. The whole thing is a mess. And everybody Contributed. Everybody contributed. Seat 8 contributed in the dealer.

[Elliot Schecter]

Yes, right. It was shared, that's for sure.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. And then to make matters worse, the floor, they had three people come over and none of them seemed to take control for. For sure.

[Elliot Schecter]

Well, second floor guy tried to make a decision, but once they appealed, then he granted the appeal. We were in trouble. Seat one punted. I mean, floor one punted. Floor one said, hmm, I got no way to solve this. I'm getting somebody else seat. The second floor guy made A decision, and at some point they didn't accept it, and he brought a third guy. It's like most rule sets expressly state that the floor person's decision is final and binding. This is not a court of law where there are one or more appeals available if the result is not liked or desired. They made a decision. They absolutely made a decision. And they didn't just pull it out of a. Out of a hat. They went to surveillance and watched the footage of the hand. They relied on not only player, player statements and the dealer statement and whatever the first floor observed, but they went through surveillance for confirmation and mulled this over. It should have ended there. I appreciate the fact that if an egregious error is made, you want to appeal, and. And sometimes you have to. You have to jump up and down. You have to make sure that nothing happens until somebody makes a fair ruling. How do you prove that the second guy, the second floor, who absolutely made a ruling after checking surveillance, how do you know that was unfair? They weighed as much evidence as possible and made a final ruling. It should have been final right there.

[Patrick]

Right.

[Elliot Schecter]

I mean, if it's egregiously incorrect and the whole. The whole table is just about unanimous in disliking the decision and disagreeing with it, that's one thing. But here we had players next to each other, seats three and four, who couldn't even agree on what the hell was going on. The floor stepped in to make the decision, as is their job. At some point, you got to accept it. And at some point, as the floor. Now I'm speaking to my colleagues, you got to put your foot down and say, this decision has been made. If you need to discuss this further, let's get off the table and have a discussion. But we're done.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. And. And I like what to kind of bring it full circle. I like what you were saying at the very. Your very first point. You, as the floor, cannot actually chop the pot. You can suggest that that is what we do, but in this kind of a situation, you have to make a definitive decision. So that I feel like chopping the pot thing was kind of a cop out to some degree. It's exactly why appease everyone.

[Elliot Schecter]

And you can't.

[Joe Scales]

And by appeasing and by trying to appease everyone, you appeased no one. You made everyone angry.

[Elliot Schecter]

You lost.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elliot Schecter]

You lost one fourth of the game. You literally lost 25% of your seated players because of this decision. Not to mention the amount of hands you lost not kneeling because you were waiting to make this decision. So, yeah, chopping the pot here didn't help you. Again, if you, if you, if you move the pot in one direction or the other, you're losing very likely one player or the other, which is one entire player less than the amount of players you lost. It is 50% less players you lost and 50% less players dissatisfied and hopefully coming back. So, yeah, again, you got to make a decision, you got to stick to it, you got to explain it, you got to be fair about it. That doesn't mean you can't offer, number one, a chance for them to be heard and number two, other forms of remuneration. I mean, whether you come to a dinner or a hotel room or something, some way to show appreciation. But yeah, you gotta make a decision and you gotta sometimes hang out for dear life.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Well, David, when you sent this in, you said here was a big one. And you're right. This. This was a big one. There was, there was a lot of blame to be handed out in this one. And yeah, doesn't sound like we ended up with the right answer either.

[Elliot Schecter]

So we did have an Oprah level distribution of blame. You get some blame and you get some blame and you get some blame. Yeah, it was pretty impressive.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. But I appreciate you sending that in. And if anyone has a call the floor that they would like to know how Elliot would rule, send it to Podcast magazine dot com. Elliot, thanks again for the insight.

[Elliot Schecter]

You're welcome. This is a good one.

[Joe Scales]

Thanks. Yeah. And we'll see you next week.

[Elliot Schecter]

Look forward to it.

[Joe Scales]

Welcome to Hand of the Week where Patrick, our resident fish and I dive into listener submitted hands each week. We tackle everything from questionable bluffs to hero calls and the hands that make you scratch your head. Whether you, whether you're looking for strategy tips or you just want to see if you would have played it any better, we've got you covered. Patrick, how's it going?

[Patrick]

We're back, my friend. I'm good. How are you?

[Joe Scales]

I'm good. You're still wearing that Boston stuff there.

[Patrick]

Listen, you know, we. It's the off season now. I'm ready for free agency to be signed. You know, we've got. We've got a lot of things going for, for the young Red Sox team. So, yeah, it's, there's. There. It's an off season, but there's no off season for Red Sox fans.

[Joe Scales]

And it. Isn't it like time to be wearing something green for the Celtics or something?

[Patrick]

Oh, that'll come. I got Bruins. Don't you worry. The, the, the Boston apparel is a year round thing in our household. So don't you worry.

[Joe Scales]

I promise you the minute you put on a Patriots jersey though, done.

[Patrick]

What's funny, you bring that up because I was, you know, I was on our, I was on our friend's DraftKings site the other day and you know, there's lots of, lots of good prop bets like you and I've talked about, obviously plenty, you know, with the casino rooms. But you know, my forte is a little bit more on the, the, the, the spreads and the lines here and you know, the Patriots. Again, this is not advice, it's just what I've done over on DraftKings. I mean they're, they're pretty, their record against the spread's pretty good. And Drake May, my friend, is the real deal. You've not heard it here first because everyone's jumped on the train, but I was there long before it last year.

[Joe Scales]

It was a struggle on the bandwagon

[Patrick]

here and Mike Vrabel was sitting there not coaching, just, you know, buying his time, ready to go. And it's, it's back. So look, we gave you guys a few years and by you guys, I mean the rest of the NFL and Tom Brady, you know, rode off in the sunset and Gronk wrote off in the sunset and you know, the rest of that core group. But it's back.

[Joe Scales]

Okay, we're all right.

[Patrick]

Kansas City's going off into the way, the, the, the way out, you know, too much. You know, maybe, I don't know, you know, I, I don't know what, you know, I won't name names, but pop singers getting involved and, you know, not focusing enough on the football field. So, you know, no, we, we love, we love T. Swift in this, in this household. But yes, Patriots are back. Drake, me is the real deal. And it's.

[Joe Scales]

Speaking of household, you've got a different background there because we're, we're recording this, trying to get it out as we are also getting ready for the trip out to Vegas. So I was going to say it's go time for you guys because, yeah, so we're, we're recording much, much later than we normally would. But yeah, we're recording nonetheless. So we do have a hand.

[Patrick]

We're here for you guys.

[Joe Scales]

That's right. We do have a hand of the week. It is sent in by Jerry Taylor and Jerry is playing 1, 3 no limit hold'. Em. He says, I have the effective stack with $465 and we are on the button right under the gun opens to $15 and it folds to us. We have, oh, yeah, this is a good hand to start with. Ace of diamonds, queen of diamonds. And he says the under the gun player is a tight, aggressive regular to the casino. And they don't typically get too out

[Patrick]

of line for the novices. Not too out of line, meaning that they're, they're not bluffing a whole lot. They're not playing a lot of, you know, lower connectors, things like that. Correct.

[Joe Scales]

Right. Not from under the gun, for sure.

[Patrick]

Yeah, for sure. Yes, from that position, for sure, yeah.

[Joe Scales]

So do we fire a three bet, take the initiative, or are you flatting and playing it safe? In position?

[Patrick]

See, I, I, it's funny. You literally were just in my head, you know, that I, I, I'm in that scary. I'm in the, yeah. Let me tell you, if we, that's a whole another episode, I think, with the position. I think I'm just going to play it safe. I'll, you know, I'll call it, you know, pretend it's reluctantly, and then we'll just, you know, let the flop come on. That being said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with ace, queen of diamonds sitting on the button to 3. Bet the man right out the gate, and if you take it down and he doesn't want to play, then so be it.

[Joe Scales]

Do you think that if we flat, if we just call that we're inviting because we, we have the blinds still left to act. That is true.

[Patrick]

Inviting them in, probably. Oh, well, I mean, I mean, it's definitely asking for it, you know, and, you know, maybe you're okay with it, maybe you're not, but you're definitely, you're definitely allowing that to happen. For sure.

[Joe Scales]

And I feel like I'm putting already, I'm trying to put a range here on our under the gun player. Somewhere in that pocket. Sevens are better range. Ace, jack or better maybe king, queen. We're ahead of a lot of that, right?

[Patrick]

Yeah, ahead of quite a bit of it, you know, especially with the flop still to come. But, yeah, right now we're ahead of a lot of it. I mean, you're right. King, queen's there. I mean, even from under the gun. I mean, queen, jack suited, you know, possibly. Obviously we have a queen, so it's a little less likely, but I mean, it's there, definitely. I had 10, you know, nine or 10. I didn't go as low as seven from under the gun, but, you know, nines, tens, you know, and above. So, yeah, you and I are right there. It's not going to. It would not hurt my feelings one bit to. To come over the top here.

[Joe Scales]

My question, I guess, would be if they have a hand like ace, king, something like that, are they gonna four bet us? Are they gonna forbet us with those medium pocket pairs, nines?

[Patrick]

Jerry's telling us that he's tight, aggressive. Probably not right if we've got a read on him, but maybe.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. I think with tight aggression, they might.

[Patrick]

They might.

[Joe Scales]

But.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. So I'm, I'm. The balance is. Do we want to do. Do we somehow not bloat the pot too much and still be able to get away if we think they have aces, kings, queens, something like that? So, yeah, I am gonna raise.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Joe Scales]

I'm gonna raise it $50.

[Patrick]

Okay. What's our friend Jerry do?

[Joe Scales]

Jerry just makes the call. So he's in your camp.

[Patrick]

He's in my camp. All right.

[Joe Scales]

And the blinds fold well. So there you go.

[Patrick]

That works. Give us a heads up either way.

[Joe Scales]

Either way. We were getting heads up.

[Patrick]

Yep.

[Joe Scales]

There is $34 in the pot. And the flop is the queen of spades, nine of clubs, four of clubs. And our under the gun continues for $25.

[Patrick]

Okay. Ace, King's a little less likely because I continuing with. Oh, well, yeah, in my head. In my. In my head, you know, getting going back into that scary place, you know, to me, me with queen of spades, nine of clubs, four clubs, definitely clubs, possibly that, you know, the. The flush draw there. I'm putting it closer to like jack's tens. They've already got their pair, maybe even kings, to be honest with you. Yeah. So I think we're still right there. I mean, we've got. We flopped top pair. I think we're still well within the. Yeah. With top kicker, we're definitely well within the range of, you know, percentage wise, probably still being ahead, you know, potentially. So playing Jerry's hands, I might push back now and see where we're at.

[Joe Scales]

Okay, here's my thought. If we just call.

[Patrick]

Yep.

[Joe Scales]

We can keep worse hands in and still control the size of the pot, right?

[Patrick]

True. Yep.

[Joe Scales]

It also disguises our hand a little bit, allowing them to continue to bluff later. The flip side of that is that this board could get pretty messy. There's two clubs out there. You know, there's a lot of. A lot of cards that can come and kill our action as well. You know, if they have Jack, 10, they're open ended. I just feel like raising here might chase away all the hands that. That we beat, and we only end up getting action from hands that crush us. And the flush draw, which, if that hits, we only built the pot up for them.

[Patrick]

Yeah, that is true.

[Joe Scales]

So funny.

[Patrick]

You and I'm good with just. You and I had the raise on the. You and I had a call raise opposite here.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

Yeah, that's true.

[Joe Scales]

And looks like Jerry continues to be in your camp.

[Patrick]

All right, what did you.

[Joe Scales]

What did you raise it to?

[Patrick]

I didn't say. I was probably in that. What it. So they bet 25. Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

I mean, we gotta be probably in, you know, what, 70 range.

[Joe Scales]

Jerry goes 80.

[Patrick]

Okay. We're pretty close.

[Joe Scales]

And he says, top pair, top kicker, and I don't want to see a club, so I need to take control here.

[Patrick]

It's literally like Jerry was in my mind.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. My problem with that is if they have the club draw, they're not folding. I don't feel like if you raise here, they're not going to throw away their club draw after making the 25 bet. So we aren't really protecting against that. We're charging for it.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Which is good, but we're not. We're not chasing them away from the flush.

[Patrick]

Can you go big enough if he's. If they're sitting on, you know, king, jack of clubs.

[Joe Scales]

Are you.

[Patrick]

Are you. Is there a size and bet on big enough to get him to go away? Probably not.

[Joe Scales]

Not. Not. That makes sense. I don't think.

[Patrick]

No, I don't think so either.

[Joe Scales]

I mean, if somebody shoved there, then I'm probably not calling. But I may call just because I'm like, you gotta be trying to get me out of this hand. Right.

[Elliot Schecter]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

But $80 is the bet. The end of the gun makes the call.

[Patrick]

Oh.

[Joe Scales]

So there is 194 in the pot. And the turn is the two of diamonds.

[Patrick]

Okay. Well, not a club.

[Joe Scales]

So the board is the queen of spades, nine of clubs, four of clubs, two of diamonds.

[Patrick]

And now our villains say we get checked. Yep,

[Joe Scales]

yep. I said it for. I got it in there right before you did.

[Patrick]

But.

[Joe Scales]

But you were right on it.

[Patrick]

Did Jerry say what our effective stack was?

[Joe Scales]

4 something. Hold on. Let me see. 465 is what we started the hand with.

[Patrick]

So we're in for well over 100.

[Joe Scales]

We put. We made it 80 and we. And 15.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

So 95 on the one hand.

[Patrick]

You could check back and keep the pot size.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

However, if he is chasing a flush, I want to make him pay for it. And if a Club comes and so be it. Because you could. You're gonna catch a fold from some people here. I really. If, If. If it's a flush, you still have top pair, you still have top kicker. There's not a straight on the board necessary. Well, no, I mean, they could. I was gonna say straight possibility, not straight on the board. All you critics, don't come out with me with language. However. I'm not checking.

[Joe Scales]

Okay. What are you betting?

[Patrick]

125.

[Joe Scales]

Okay. I had. I had a number in my head, too. A little bit close to the same. Here's. Here's my thought.

[Patrick]

We're thinking a lot tonight. Maybe we should record later in the evening. We have a lot of thoughts at night.

[Joe Scales]

A lot of thoughts. If this were a looser player. Yeah, I fire here after he checks without much of a thought. But this is a tighter player who's capable of, I don't know, check calling with a monster. So taking the free card, it's a consideration.

[Patrick]

Yeah, it's definitely a consideration. It's one that I consider against, but I think.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I'm with you, though. I don't like the idea of giving a club draw a free card. Yeah. If we just check. I feel like we're missing some value too. If they have hands, like, I don't know. Queen, Jack, Queen, 10, Jack 10, even.

[Patrick]

We're forgetting one that it didn't really dawn on me. I mean, it kind of popped in my head to start with, but then when you said check calling with a monster. Nines. Are there

[Joe Scales]

pocket nines?

[Patrick]

Yeah, it's in the. It's in the realm.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. So here's what I'm gonna do. I'm. I. I'm gonna. I'm going back and forth here. I'm either gonna check or I'm gonna bet big. There's no small bet here to me,

[Patrick]

like, pot size big, three quarter. Okay, so, like, in that 150, 160

[Joe Scales]

range, that's where my number was.

[Patrick]

Okay.

[Joe Scales]

Originally. But I also. 125. 135. I can see that too. So. But I'm thinking 150. We'll go there. Let's see. Jerry. Jerry calls yours. Exactly. Jerry bets 125. You and Jerry are on the same page.

[Patrick]

He's a good guy, real smart, real big thinker.

[Joe Scales]

Villain tanks for a bit, then holds.

[Patrick]

Oh, okay.

[Joe Scales]

Now, the pot is $444. And the river is the queen of hearts. So the board is queen of spades, nine of clubs, four of clubs, two of diamonds, queen of hearts.

[Patrick]

And the only hand that I put in his realm that beats us is nines.

[Joe Scales]

The villain checks again.

[Patrick]

See, this is where I check. I think I check. I, I will, I will have one enough for this hand with my, with my queens. And if he's been just sitting on his monster off the flop and then just paired the board. Yeah, then I'm okay. I, I, I lose. And I'm okay. I mean, I'm pissed, but I'm okay. And I check right back and make his skin crawl.

[Joe Scales]

And then he's mad too, because he missed value.

[Patrick]

Yep.

[Joe Scales]

What do we have? We only have something like what, 200 or 250. Something like that.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Maybe a little less than 250.

[Patrick]

Yeah, less than 250. A little over 200, I think, you know, which is still plenty, plenty to get back into the effective stack if you lose his hand. I'm checking.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I, I feel like it's one of those rivers that come out and feels like a gift. Like you just, you love, you see that queen hit and you're so excited, and then you go, wait, yeah, this, maybe I've been playing online too long. Yeah. How many worse hands are going to call if we bet?

[Patrick]

I mean, pocket kings, pocket jacks, pocket tens, probably, maybe. I mean, you gotta think he's probably making. And he's making us on having a queen and, or a top pocket pair of some sort.

[Joe Scales]

You've got me thinking about those pocket nines.

[Patrick]

Yeah, for sure. You know why? Because you said the word monster and I'm like, what monster? And I'm like, oh, yeah, that monster. We'd have been better off with an ace.

[Joe Scales]

We might be missing some value here, but I'm with you. I think the pot's big enough. 444. I'm happy to check and take this down.

[Patrick]

Yeah, there's so many pros to checking this.

[Joe Scales]

Jerry says everything about the hand screams strength, but also indecision. He led the flop, then checked two streets. I knew checking behind might be the safe play, but I also hated leaving chips on the table with trips. So I shoved my opponent. Snap called nines, says my heart sank. He rolled over the king of clubs, queen of clubs, trips. Also with the flush draw. That never got there.

[Patrick]

Jerry. Hugh sandbagging. Well done, sir.

[Joe Scales]

For a moment I thought I was cooked, thinking maybe he slow played a set. But my ace queen was good and I scooped a big one. He says, I have an app on my phone that I record hands that I want to review later. There's a lot of them out there, but I'll ask him. I'll get back to him and ask what app he uses. But he says, when I came back to this one and remember how my heart sank when he snap called, I wondered if I was actually getting a little too greedy by putting it all in there, or would a check just have been missed value?

[Patrick]

The answer is yes on both accounts. All of the above. Right. Listen, when you were in school and you were doing a multiple choice test, you didn't know, you either choose chose C or all the above. Yeah, I think, I think you're definitely losing a little bit of value there. But I think the pros, you know, outweigh the cons of just checking because of everything we just said. If you check and he's got, you know, pocket nines and he takes you down, then you know what? You're making him second guess himself for not betting on either one of this, the last two streets, and you're getting out of there by saving yourself, you know, a buyback in.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Patrick]

If you check and he flop, you know, pulls out, you know, turns over ace, king of club like he did, then you know what? Yes. You look at miss value, but at the same time, you still took down a pretty good pot.

[Joe Scales]

So, yeah, I think you have to be okay with the pot size no matter what. Whether win or lose, you have to be okay with that. But this is what makes poker so fun. Right. It's this constant balancing act where it's like, protect our chips, but don't misvalue, you know?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Sometimes even when you get it right, there's that voice in your head, did I push too hard? And that's why hands like this stick with you long after the cards are gone. Right?

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

I would say my bottom line is I played it conservatively and you played it aggressively. Like, that's just. If they had something like pocket nines, I would have saved a few hundred bucks. Then if they don't, like, they didn't, then you look like a genius.

[Patrick]

Yeah. So look like an absolute genius.

[Joe Scales]

I, I, I don't think it was greedy. I was thinking that if they, if they had, like, busted draws, they wouldn't pay, pay us off. I just didn't want to risk losing a hand to, like, nines or even Queen 9.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Queen 9 would have sucked too. So all things considered, I would call it aggressive but not greedy.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I completely agree. And you're probably catching a, when you shove there if it doesn't, if it doesn't happen to be King, Queen, and him making his set, then you're probably catching a fold. So.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Which is. Which is why I thought the check would be better, because it's only getting called by. By. By hands that beat you.

[Patrick]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

I didn't feel like we were getting called by hands that were worse. But King, Queen just barely had one pip less than us.

[Patrick]

One, one. I like that, Jerry. Great hand, bud.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Yeah. I love this. Thanks for sending that in. If anyone has a hand of the week that they would like to know how Patrick and I would break it down, send it to podcastneupmagazine.com Patrick let's do this again next week.

[Patrick]

Count me in.

[Podcast Promo Voice]

The 18th.

[Joe Scales]

With baseball season officially underway, I tend to think about some of the lessons I learned out on the field. Because baseball, kind of like poker, has a funny way of humbling you one day. That's always stuck with me. I remember I was struggling at the plate. It was just one of those games where nothing felt right. I was late on everything, guessing instead of reacting, and was getting more frustrated with every at bat. I was being pretty hard on myself. And I remember my coach pulling me to a side, and he said something I've never forgotten. He said, baseball is a tough game to figure out. Some days you're going to feel great. You're going to be locked in. The ball looks like a beach ball and everything clicks. Then sometimes you're going to feel average. You're going to grind. You're going to rely on your fundamentals and battle through at bats. Then there are those other times where you're going to feel terrible. You're going to be lost. Like nothing works. You can't buy a hit. He said the greatest players separate themselves in that last park when they feel terrible. They don't give away at bats. They. They don't pout, they don't spiral. They find a way to help the team. Maybe it's drawing a walk, maybe it's fouling off pitches. Maybe it's just staying in the box long enough to make the pitcher work. But they still compete. Now, fast forward to poker, right? And tell me that doesn't sound exactly like what we go through at the table. We just call it something different. We call it a downswing. We sit at the table wondering why nothing is working, why our reeds feel off, why our hands don't hold, why every decision feels just a little harder than it should. And the mistake we make is that we expect to live in that top part of the realm all the time. We expect to always feel sharp and confident. But that's not poker. There are days when everything flows. You're seeing the game clearly, making great decisions, picking people apart, getting paid when you should. And it feels easy. Then there are days when you've got to grind, fold a lot, stay patient, trust your fundamentals. Nothing flashy, just solid poker. And then there are those other days when nothing feels right. Cards are cold, spots are uncomfortable. Your confidence starts to slip a little. And just like baseball, that's where you separate yourself. Not by forcing action, not by trying to win it back, not by doing something outside of your own game, but by not giving anything away. You protect your stack. You stick to your process. You don't tilt off chips because you're frustrated. You don't abandon discipline because you're uncomfortable. Anyone can play well when they're in that first part. That's easy. That's fun. But the players who last, the players who actually win over time, are the ones who don't let a bad session turn into a bad week or a bad month. They don't let a downswing turn into a meltdown. They show up. They stay disciplined even when it doesn't feel like it matters. So stop expecting to sit at the table and have everything clicking. Accept where you are, control your attitude, control your effort, and compete with whatever the cards have in store for you that day. That is how you break out of a slump. And more importantly, that's how you win in poker over the long term. That's today's one outer. And that's today's show. I'll see you next week, a team. And until then, I'll see you at the tables.

[Josh Spiegel]

The Ante up podcast is a production

[Elliot Schecter]

of anyupmagazine.com contact the show at podcastsnyupmagazine.com

[Josh Spiegel]

or call the show at 540-339-7741. If you'd like to advertise, send an email to editorneupmagazine.com and Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Joe Scales]

Hey, everyone, Check out this guy in his bird. What is this, your first date?

[Josh Spiegel]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on

[Joe Scales]

car insurance with Liberty Mutual.

[Josh Spiegel]

Together. We're married.

[Joe Scales]

Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Josh Spiegel]

Anyways, only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[Joe Scales]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.