Chapter 4 Ep. 16 Bet on Better

Summary

Ante Up Poker Magazine Podcast

Chapter 4 Ep. 16 – "Bet on Better"

Host: Joe Scales
Co-hosts & Guests: Elle, Elliot Schechter, Patrick Guzzy
Date: May 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This week’s episode dives into the intersection of poker, community, and integrity in both the game and how it's played outside the casino. Joe and Elle celebrate a new California poker stop, dissect WSOP’s ambiguous new rule on third-party payments, and cheer positive developments at The Lodge in Texas. The Bet on Better segment showcases how grassroots poker events and high-profile charity tournaments contribute meaningfully to local and national communities. Later, the crew addresses a listener’s ethical rules question and unpacks a hard-fought cash game hand—all with their hallmark humor and practical advice.

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Table Talk: Updates, Announcements & Housekeeping

[00:48 – 03:04]

• Camera Upgrade: Joe shares he has a new podcast camera, drawing an analogy between calibrating tech and tweaking a poker game.
• Patreon Games: Upcoming Hold'em night (14th) and mixed game (28th) announced; good karma seat spinning this weekend to incentivize Patreon signups.
• Community Building: Joe highlights the warm, fun nature of their Patreon poker group—“exactly what Ante Up is all about.”
• California Poker Stop Announcement:
  • Elle and Joe reveal their upcoming stop at Saquon Casino, San Diego—their first public mention after “wanting to partner for a while” ([04:22]).
  • Elle’s excitement about visiting the San Diego Zoo; Joe is bemused about her “zoo connoisseur” status.

Memorable Quote:
“If poker doesn’t give you patience, the business side will. We’ve been wanting to mention this for so long... There are a lot of movement pieces that you have to work out.”
— Joe Scales, [04:41]

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Poker News Roundup

[06:04 – 15:18]

WSOP’s New Rule: “Vague but Purposeful”

• Summary: New WSOP rule allows host properties to penalize anyone breaking rules, with particular focus on participants accepting “any payment or prize from a third party... based on the outcome/results” of their event ([06:34]).
  • Likely prompted by past collusion scandals related to extra prizes for wearing branded gear.
• Community Concerns: Ambiguity worries some in the staking and swaps scenes.
  • Elle likens it to teacher catch-all language: “You have to, because you cannot predict all the things that are going to happen.” ([08:14])
  • Joe: “The biggest difference I see is if I’m staking you in a tournament and you win, I’m not paying you, you’re paying me.”
• Takeaway: Both agree it’s an intentionally broad rule for legal flexibility. The main discomfort is the unspecified line—WSOP “hasn’t actually drawn that line.”
• Effectivity: Rule in force immediately; will become clearer after the upcoming WSOP season.

Notable Quote:
“We all think we know where the line is and... the WSOP hasn’t actually drawn that line.”
— Joe Scales, [10:30]

The Lodge Investigation: Vindication

• Background: The Lodge in Texas was under legal scrutiny; grand jury refused to bring charges.
• Confidence Restored: Both hosts express relief, especially for those whose livelihoods depended on The Lodge.
  • Elle trusted feedback from regular players and calls it a “witch hunt.”
  • Joe: “A lot of people were nervous... they would prosecute a ham sandwich... so that says a lot.”
• Looking Forward: Anticipate packed rooms as supporters return; acknowledge Texas’s ongoing “gray area.”

Quote:
“If I had my money, I’d go get it and happily play again. That’s my personal opinion.”
— Elle, [12:18]

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News from Ante Up Magazine

[15:18 – 21:00]

• New Issue Released: Emphasis on stories that “go beyond the cards” and strategies relevant to the everyday player.
• Highlight Articles:
  • Sherry Pliscota: Article on “buying” WSOP circuit rings via dealmaking at the final table.
    • Debate over whether the symbolism of a ring (which influences rankings) should be negotiable.
    • Elle: “I could never imagine in any physical sport a deal being made for the trophy.”
    • Joe counters players have sold their actual Super Bowl rings, blurring symbolic meaning.
  • Open Invitation: Joe and Elle invite listeners to join their appearance on Sherry’s X Spaces next Friday at 7:30 pm ET ([21:32]).

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Bet on Better: Good Poker for a Good Cause

[21:42 – 31:58]

• Fraternity Poker Night (Texas, by Vinnie):
  • $50 buy-in, no cash payout; prizes were inside jokes/personalized, focused on community after losing members ([22:54]).
  • Raised $700; intent to make it an annual tradition.
• Baller Dream Poker Tournament at Circa:
  • Celebrity-heavy, hosted by Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Nick Carter, and more.
  • 100% proceeds to pediatric cancer patients (Baller Dream Foundation), originated by cancer survivor Frank Zablazi.
  • Foundation’s direct-impact work: from education grants to experiences like meeting Guy Fieri.
  • Elle: “Turning a difficult time in your life into a positive for others is always a win and a warm fuzzy in my book.” ([27:17])
• Other Charity Events Mentioned:
  • Gaming for Green: Poker event supports environmental causes in Chicagoland, main event seat as grand prize; tickets $175 before Sunday ([30:07]).
  • Local Community Stories: Listeners encouraged to replicate charity games at smaller scales—even a home game for diaper pantries.

Quote:
“Poker can get kind of a bad rap sometimes. But weekends like the one at Circa... remind us how poker can build community and raise money for important causes. It can literally change lives for people on and off the felt.”
— Joe Scales, [30:51]

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Local Flavor & Shoutouts

[31:58 – 34:47]

• Supporting Local Business: Elle & Joe promote a neighboring barbecue spot saved by local brothers, emphasizing poker’s community value outside the casino.
• Bourbon Recommendation: Shoutout to “Poor Choices Basement Bar” on Instagram for rare bourbon finds.

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Call the Floor: Handling a Limit Game Action Dispute

[35:16 – 53:15]

Scenario (Submitted by Andrew Herbacevsky, [36:08]):

• Limit Omaha, player C tosses in $4 stacks, says “F it, I’m going all in, I want to go home,” has two racks behind. Other players claim string raise.
• Floor called, rules it as a raise.

Elliot Schechter’s Ruling ([38:00, 41:27]):

• Correct Call: Players A & B right to protest; physical chip action (stacking chips in) = action, not the statement.
• Action speaks more than words; profanity warned, but bet stands as per chips.
• Dealer should stop recurring nonsense ("all in"); floor’s concern about angle shooting valid but shouldn’t trump proper procedure.
• “The bet speaks for itself is a tried and true rule and keeps things orderly.” — Elliot, [38:52]
• Context matters (if statement before chips, effect differs).
• The real problem is inconsistent dealer/floor enforcement of proper betting etiquette over multiple sessions.
• Room should train staff to cut off confusing “all-in” nonsense in limit games.

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Hand of the Week: The Pocket Jacks Dilemma

[53:28 – 82:18]

Context ([57:27]):

Listener Chris Shepherd at a $1/$3 cash table with $500 stacks, five or six hands in. Deals with the classic poker headache: pocket jacks (J♠ J♦) in early position.

Sequence:

• Chris raises $15 UTG+1; middle position calls, Button (aggressive) 3-bets to $60 ([58:10]).
• Chris calls; middle position calls.
• Flop: 9♣ 7♥ 4♠, Chris checks, Button bets $75. Chris calls ([67:01]).
• Turn: Q♦, Chris checks, Button bets $175. Chris calls ([72:32]).
• River: 3♣, Chris checks, Button shoves, covering Chris’s $250. Chris tanks but calls ([75:45]).

Result:

• Button tables A♠ K♠ (ace-high bluff).
• Chris scoops a big pot, Button berates him for calling with jacks.

Analysis & Lessons:

• Strategy Divergence: Joe prefers a preflop 4-bet; Patrick and Chris opt for flatting.
• Both Joe and Patrick snap-call the river, identifying plenty of missed bluffs in the Button’s possible range.
• Disciplined Call: Joe: “Don’t let this guy get in your head just because he lost a pot and wants to whine about it.”
• General advice: Don’t let pot-committed thinking cloud judgment (see One Outer below).

Quotes:

• “You want to beat aggressive players? Call them down with medium strength hands when the board doesn’t crush you.” — Joe Scales, [81:12]
• “Chris, as you’re pulling in your chips and he’s whining, just say, ‘You should have told a better story.’” — Patrick Guzzy, [78:07]

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Joe’s One Outer: Sunk Cost Fallacy in Poker

[82:38 – 86:02]

Joe gives a quick lesson on avoiding the sunk cost fallacy—don’t let past investment dictate present decision-making, especially if you feel emotionally invested in a pot that turns sour. Stay disciplined:
"The past is gone and the future is still yours to control. The goal isn't to prove you were right to get involved in the first place; the goal is to make the best decision you can right now." ([85:32])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Elle on the WSOP rule: “Legalese and I don’t get along. So I would like for you to explain this.” ([06:19])
• Joe on ambiguity: “They haven’t actually drawn that line.” ([10:30])
• Elliot on enforcement: “Policing this stuff has to happen. It just can't be allowed to go on at all to the point where it affects your games and loses you players.” ([51:48])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:48] – Joe’s tech and Patreon news
• [04:22] – San Diego poker stop announcement
• [06:19] – New WSOP rule breakdown
• [11:49] – The Lodge cleared by grand jury
• [15:18] – Magazine issue highlights: circuit ring deals, grassroots events
• [22:54] – Fraternity charity poker night
• [24:49] – Baller Dream Foundation tournament
• [29:25] – Gaming for Green event preview
• [35:16] – “Call the Floor” rules debate
• [53:28] – Hand of the Week: Calling down with Jacks
• [82:38] – One Outer: Sunk cost fallacy lesson

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Tone & Style

• Lighthearted and candid: Conversational, with plenty of good-natured ribbing—especially surrounding Elle’s zoo passion and Patrick’s Boston sports woes.
• Informative, not preachy: Rules and strategies are broken down with sympathy for everyday players.
• Community-driven focus: Continual emphasis on the unifying power of poker—across the felt, through charity, at the local pub, or online.

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Final Takeaways

• Poker is at its best when it's inclusive, community-building, and honest—whether that’s fighting for clear rules, celebrating legal victories, or harnessing the game for charity.
• Don’t be bullied by ambiguous new rules, legalese, or pushy “aggressive” players at the table.
• Remember: Making good, disciplined decisions now trumps any prior investment in a losing hand.

To submit stories, hands, or rulings, email: [e-mail]
Join next week for more humor, strategy, and table-side camaraderie!

Transcript

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[Podcast Intro Announcer]

Take your seat. The cards are flying high. Shuffle up and deal at the Aces Lie Longest running show. Yeah, we seen it all. From the river to the rail, we answer the call.

[Joe Scales]

Hello, a team, and welcome back to another episode of the Ant Poker Podcast. We're where every hand is an opportunity, every player is a friend, and every episode is a winning experience. I'm your host, Joe Scales, and let me give you just a quick little behind the scenes update before we get rolling. I finally pulled the trigger on a new camera for the show. I've been going down this rabbit hole for a while, comparing and researching, probably overthinking it like I've been known to do before. But we've got it in play now. So if you're watching on YouTube, you might notice things looking a little sharper. Now it's just a matter of dialing it in a little bit, tweaking settings, adjusting the lighting, making sure everything looks just right. It's kind of like fine tuning your poker game. Speaking of poker games, our Patreon games are officially on the calendar now. The 14th is going to be our hold' em night and then the 28th will throw in the mixed game. I'm still deciding exactly what that's going to be, so if you've got a favorite, let me know. Those games have, obviously they've been an absolute blast. The community in there is exactly what Annie up is all about. Oh, and I'll be spinning the the wheel this weekend for the good karma seat. So if you've been thinking about jumping into our Patreon page, now's a pretty good time to do it. If you can't find the link, it's, it's super easy. Head over to our [e-mail] or check out the link tree. If you find everything there and the link's right there, you'll be right in business. All right, that's enough from me because we've got a lot to talk about around the table with Link, so that's all I'm gonna say for now. Let's get on with the show.

[Podcast Intro Announcer]

Welcome to the show. You're on the A team. Stack your chips and chase the dream. Joe's got the booth, his mic's on fire. Elle's got the laugh, she's taking it higher.

[Joe Scales]

Elle and I are back around the

[Elle]

poker table with a sinus infection.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, it's been a little bit of a rough week this week for you.

[Elle]

Everybody that I've had phone calls with is like, is this your Demi Moore voice? And I was like, if I could look like her and feel this bad, that would be great. Yeah. Sinus infection time of year. The pollen count in our neck of the woods has been psychotic, so. And I spent three hours outside on the deck on Friday, and I regret not the time we spent with our friends.

[Joe Scales]

Right. But being outside, I was gonna ask you if you thought that's what got you.

[Elle]

I think that was what nailed the coffin. Put the last nail in the coffin for me, I think it was already. I was already adding extra medicine on top of my normal allergy medicine for, like, a week. And then I said, I need fresh air, and that fresh air was full of other allergens. So anyhow, that's why I sound like this. But I'm on the mend. We're good. Moving on. We got part of the springtime news.

[Joe Scales]

Yes.

[Elle]

Springtime living.

[Joe Scales]

But we got good news.

[Elle]

Literally, literally just a second ago, before

[Joe Scales]

we hit record here, I'm gonna high

[Elle]

five you on the air.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

We're going to California, baby.

[Joe Scales]

San Diego, here we come.

[Elle]

We just got a signed, sealed, and delivered contract to have a poker stop in San Diego.

[Joe Scales]

California Saquon Casino.

[Elle]

And so excited. I cannot wait to go hang out with Joe Mackin and the crew.

[Joe Scales]

Same.

[Elle]

And their trophies are amazing.

[Joe Scales]

You know, if. If poker, though, if poker doesn't give you patience, then the business side of things will. Because we have been wanting to mention this for so long.

[Elle]

Mention it. Yeah, because we were excited about it, and we've been wanting to partner with him for a while. So it takes a while to get these poker stops organized.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

And we're so excited.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. There are a lot of movement pieces that you have to work out, and all of the details aren't done.

[Elle]

No.

[Joe Scales]

But we are officially going. And that's the good news.

[Elle]

Yes. So we'll be in California twice this year.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Once to go on the cruise and once for poker stop. And I'm just gonna say it. We're going to the zoo in San Diego. That is a must.

[Joe Scales]

Okay.

[Elle]

If I have to go alone. I will. I will find. I will.

[Joe Scales]

What's. What's special about the San Diego Zoo? I. Why? Don't look at me like that. I don't know. All right, everybody. Apparently I'm missing something.

[Elle]

It's one of the top zoos to ever visit.

[Joe Scales]

I didn't know that.

[Elle]

Yes. I love going to.

[Joe Scales]

I didn't know you were such a zoo connoisseur.

[Elle]

True. But we've been to a couple together.

[Joe Scales]

True, we have.

[Elle]

I just enjoy it. I've always enjoyed it since Sing Sing and Ling Ling at the Washington Zoo. Yes, we've talked about this.

[Joe Scales]

Yes, we have.

[Elle]

Anyways. Yes, we're going. Aside from that, though, I think there's some really vague poker news and some really good poker news that I'd like to discuss with you.

[Joe Scales]

Okay. I'm assuming the vague is the WSOP rule.

[Elle]

Yes. You know, legalese and I don't get along. So I would like for you to explain this. There is a new WSOP rule that is giving properties permission to pursue some action should they need to.

[Elliot Schechter]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Did I summarize that pretty well.

[Joe Scales]

That's a decent breakdown. Basically, they added a new rule that host properties can penalize anyone that breaks any of the rules. But the big rule that is in question is it says obviously can include but not limited to the participation. Right. The participant accepting any payment or prize from a third party person or entity based on the outcome or results of their WSOP event.

[Elle]

Yeah. So I'm assuming. And we discussed this a little bit because I really had to get a better grasp on. On it when we were. When we came across the story. Is this is probably in direct reference to. Was it wpt?

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, it was the gold patches.

[Elle]

And then everybody online was like, wait a minute, these two guys are working together. There's no way. Because there was an additional prize. If you were wearing a patch and you want an event, then you got an additional.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elle]

This.

[Joe Scales]

During the Millionaire Maker, there was that collusion. Yeah. And so as a result, this has come out. What has people in a little bit of a concern, I guess, is that some people feel like maybe this is a little overarching in that what exactly counts as a third party payment?

[Elle]

Yeah, I think they just do this. It's somewhat like what I used to do as a school teacher.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Yes. You have to. Because you cannot predict all the things that are going to happen. That's true. In a classroom. Right. I think they're doing the same thing. We can't say we're not directly saying if you're wearing a patch and a prize is given, they. They have to do this to give themselves some wiggle room. I think what might not be necessary is full on panic at this point. I think it's.

[Joe Scales]

I would agree.

[Elle]

Put out there. If you're doing the right thing, you don't have to worry about it. But.

[Elliot Schechter]

True.

[Joe Scales]

It's just that some people are concerned because they were thinking about. Well, you know, there's so much staking that happens that's pre. And swaps that happen, which is just. It's staking basically. But you're just swapping your action.

[Elle]

But that's happening before and. And this clearly states after the fact, correct?

[Joe Scales]

It. No, it doesn't say after the fact. It just says additional paid on your. Your status or your. Where you place there.

[Elle]

Okay, well, I still think that's like additional.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, that's not.

[Elle]

Same thing.

[Joe Scales]

I think that more than anything, the, the biggest difference I see is if I'm staking you right in. In a tournament and you win the tournament, I'm not paying you. So you're not getting additional prizes. Correct. You're paying me, actually. Yeah.

[Elle]

I don't think. I don't think people that are staking anyone have anything to consider or be concerned about. You may. You may want to tread carefully on the like, who lasts the longest.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Last long.

[Elle]

That kind of thing. You know, and then certainly guaranteeing anybody additional items for their success.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

Right. So, yeah, I don't.

[Joe Scales]

I don't think it's as big a deal as. As people are making it out to be.

[Elle]

I do find it interesting that it comes out less than three weeks before the start. That's the only thing that I have a bugaboo about. As my mom would say, if you haven't heard that word in a while, that's a Southern term for I want to. I have. I have an issue. I take issue with that.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Right. So. So again, but it's set before the games begin, right? Yeah, the big ones. But I think this also applies across the circuits.

[Joe Scales]

It does.

[Elle]

So they are. Is this like in effect as of today?

[Joe Scales]

As far as I know, yeah. Well, I think that my biggest problem is, and I think a lot of people's problem is that we all think we know where the line is and

[Elle]

you don't want to mess up.

[Joe Scales]

The WSOP hasn't actually drawn that line. They haven't said specifically, this is what I'm talking about. And this is not what I'm talking.

[Elle]

I Don't think they can, because they

[Joe Scales]

have to be more vague, is what you're saying.

[Elle]

Because that you would have, like. It would be like an amendment. This, this, this, this, this, this, this. Which they could do. But what is somebody still going to do?

[Joe Scales]

Try and find something.

[Elle]

Always.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, always. I get that.

[Elle]

So I believe that that's why they left it. They. That's my personal opinion. I could be wrong, but I think here's.

[Joe Scales]

Here's what we know. Once this year is through it. This summer is through at the World Series, then it'll be in action for a little bit, and everybody will feel more comfortable about what it is. Exactly.

[Elle]

100%. New rules. Always bring this.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, exactly.

[Elle]

Same. Same thing as this damn kickoff yard thing. I mean, that's what it reminds me of, is everybody's like, whoa, what. How are we gonna do. How are we gonna play the game when you change this rule? Let's just see. Let's just play the game and see. I want to talk about positive news. Positive. The Lodge is back.

[Joe Scales]

They are back.

[Elle]

Yes. I said. What did I say?

[Joe Scales]

You said it was a witch hunt.

[Elle]

I truly. That was my gut. And I said I might be wrong. And it could have been completely ridiculous for me to say it. Hopefully we can roll that footage, roll that beautiful bean backwards and be able to check that out. But, I mean, to confirm that I was right, but not that I was right, but that. That's why I said so. I'm thrilled to death about this. I really am. I think, just for all involved, and if I had my money, I'd go get it and happily play again. That's my personal opinion.

[Joe Scales]

So basically, to recap here, though, a grand jury heard the case from the prosecutors, and they refused to authorize charges, which means it's not. That's not reducing charges. That's not some kind of settlement. That's not a plea deal. That is nada. Nothing.

[Elle]

Nada.

[Joe Scales]

A lot of people were saying, you know, the grand jury, they would. They would prosecute a ham sandwich. And so they were nervous about it because. Yeah, because they're. They're willing to move forward with just about everything. And they didn't go forward with this one. So that says a lot.

[Elle]

I kept my confidence in the players that we talked to that played there.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

And that constantly said, I have no concept, having participated in playing there, what they could have found fault in.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

And that's where I kept my hope, and that's where I really had that gut check with myself. And I'm like going, these are credible people that we know. They. I don't think they would. I think they would be honest and say, yeah, there was a little shady stuff or there was a few things that I was unsure of or like, no, they never asked me to fill a form out or they never told me to do blah, blah, blah. Right, right. So that's why I was like just hoping and holding on to hope that this was going to be the outcome. We're super excited for everybody involved, for people who can have their jobs back for Doug Polk and the crew and the owners, for the players that are able to continue to go back and play. I know. Jasmine.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Really wanted a coin or, excuse me, a chip from there. So, Jasmine, you're going to get your chip finally, which is exciting. I know there's a gray area. I know people are going to go, Texas is still gray. Whatever. Personally, take the win. Move on. Enjoy. Play. Play safe. Play respectfully.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

And. And enjoy.

[Joe Scales]

I agree with you. I just wonder if people are going to be nervous to go back 100% at the very beginning.

[Elle]

There are going to be some. Yeah, there are going to be some that go. We, we knew from the beginning. We trust you. We're going to move on.

[Joe Scales]

Well, the room is going to be packed because there's going to be people that just want to show their support.

[Elle]

Yeah, that was exactly what I was thinking.

[Joe Scales]

So I'm, I'm super happy. Both of us. Super happy for the lodge.

[Elle]

Yes.

[Joe Scales]

That whole group. What a great feeling to. To prevail with something like that. Even though you know you're. You didn't do anything wrong, even when you know that in your heart it still is nerve wracking.

[Elle]

It's out of your control.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, exactly.

[Elle]

Out of your control. I think that encapsulates the last two stories that we've just chatted about. Kind of Encapsulate. Encapsulates what we are always on the lookout for, which is making sure the everyday poker player is informed, kept up to date and, you know, knows where to play.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

And the magazines out. It's full. It is strategy, community, awesome stories that,

[Joe Scales]

that really go beyond the cards. Right?

[Elle]

Yes.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, exactly it. To me, it feels like. And I know I always, I always love the last episode or the last issue. Yeah. It feels like this one is like the perfect blend of what Annie up is all about, which is what you were talking about with the everyday poker player being represented and what they face all the time. So I love it. One of my favorite stories in There is a guest writer that we had, Sherry Pliscota.

[Elle]

Oh, yeah, she drove us this month. Yeah, I thought she had a really interesting take on some things that are happening at tournaments.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. She wrote about. The name of her article is what's the Big Deal? She talks about buying rings and not going to the jewelry store and buying rings, but the circuit rings. She had a conversation. She had Maurice Hawkins on her show. As a result of him being on the show, people were talking about this, this process of buying rings. Buying rings for those that don't know.

[Elle]

What does that mean?

[Joe Scales]

Just paying, making deals with the players at the final table saying he wants that ring so he's willing to pay more money or whatever. Like a chop kind of. But you're definitely. We, we saw it even at our events where they're like, I want the trophy, you know, I'm not going to make a deal unless I get the trophy.

[Elle]

Yeah. And that does happen.

[Joe Scales]

He's doing the same thing with a ring, maybe, you know, and. And her point was people are, are people are all up in arms about this idea that he's buying the rings, whether he is or isn't. But she flips the argument, I think, in a really smart way, because if someone bought the ring, quote, unquote, bought the ring, right. Then someone else sold it. So who's really to be at fault there? You know, you can't be upset if you did it. You can't be upset if you agreed to the deal.

[Elle]

Yeah. I think it's an interesting concept though, because I think what. Because what I automatically go to is this new leaderboard they have and rings are different points. And so I think, I believe what I would struggle with is the ring is supposed to be symbolic of you taking a first place.

[Joe Scales]

Sure.

[Elle]

And if that isn't, then why have them? So it's, it's tricky because I get it in a sense of where the trophy at our events, it's bragging rights.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

But these rings are not only bragging rights anymore. It's part of a culmination of points, a standing that is a national or worldwide standing. And so therefore, I think that's when you get a little bit more controversy over, hey, what does this really mean then?

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I. No, I understand what you're saying. And some people are gonna be all about the rings and that's gonna be super important to them. And some people are not. Some people are like, I made X amount of dollars more than I would have made. So, yeah, this was a big thing. You Know, before rings, it was all about, oh, it still is to some degree, but bracelets.

[Elle]

Right.

[Joe Scales]

And there were some players that were like, I don't care about the bracelet. That's not what I'm playing the game for. Phil Ivey is a perfect example. He had 10, 10 bracelets, and then he just disappeared for a while because it wasn't important. That stuff's not important at that time to him. I feel like now that he's gotten older, it might be a little bit more important to him again, maybe. But, you know, in his prime, he was like, I'm. That's not, that's not why I'm playing

[Elle]

the game, I guess, where maybe the gray, if we can say gray area again, is the symbolism.

[Joe Scales]

Sure.

[Elle]

Because I could never, ever, ever imagine in any physical sport that there would be a deal made for the trophy. Like, I could never see the super bowl trophy or the Wimbledon trophy or the Stanley cup or a gold medal being like, you know what?

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

Let's make a deal.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

No, like there is absolutely no room or way that would ever happen.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

So that's what I think I'm saying. Symbolic of the win.

[Joe Scales]

I understand where you're coming from there, but players have gotten in financial trouble and sold their super bowl ring. So the trophy is still with the team, but the player, individual player has sold his. His super bowl ring. So

[Elle]

with afternoon coffee. Touche. What do you guys think? Maybe that's what I would love to do.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. Yeah. That would be important to. To hear from you guys in, in talking with Sherry about the article. Got to know her a little bit. We're actually, we're going to be joining her show next week.

[Elle]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

On X. Spaces.

[Elle]

What is Spaces?

[Joe Scales]

It's.

[Elle]

This is something new for me. So.

[Joe Scales]

So it's, It's a platform. It's. It's on X. And you can. I think you can record them as well. But you, you call in. It's like a call in. You're. You're on there. You're talking alive.

[Elle]

Yeah, but it's on X.

[Joe Scales]

And it's on X. Yeah.

[Elle]

Okay.

[Joe Scales]

Well, in her space. Yeah. I've never done one of these before, so.

[Elle]

Yeah, me either.

[Joe Scales]

Which neither one of us.

[Elle]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. And so we just wanted to invite you guys to join us and come along. It's next Friday at 7:30 Eastern PM in the evening.

[Joe Scales]

Yes.

[Elle]

So after the podcast is released, then we're going to jump on a call with Sheri. And Sheri, thank you so much. Again, for your contribution to the magazine this month. We love hearing from new voices and what's happening in the poker community. So we're excited to be really fun, have that conversation with you. Another really exciting article I think in the magazine is from our Texas ambassador, Vinnie. And he if this in Grassroots Bet on Better, I, I really don't know what is. I'm serious. I got cold chills reading this as, as we entering it into the. The format for the magazine. He highlighted a fraternity poker event in Texas that was not about profit at all. And so I started thinking like, this is an odd time of year. And then I went, no, it's not. This is when all, all colleges are having their alumni events or um, you know, fraternities and sororities get together because, because the, the class is getting ready to graduate. There's all sorts of celebrations that happen in these, in these months. But then he attended his fraternity's poker event and I, he didn't say so, but if. I kind of have a gut feeling that he kind of helped organize this because it was very well put together. $50 buy in, no cash payout. It was all about community creativity purposes. They've lost some members of the fraternity along the way. So the prizes were like directly related to inside jokes. That was my favorite part. Or you know, fun nicknames that they had for, for these guys. And so there was like all these symbolic tie ins throughout and none of the prizes were like huge that they had, but they were fun.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

And some of them were like personalized. Right. So they even, I think they, somebody created a flag that was like if the first person who got knocked out of the tournament got this flag that said, yeah, if you're not first, you're last or something. Like, I mean, they just listen in the spirit of just keeping things upbeat and fun and doing something for a purpose. They raised 700 bucks, created something actually fun that they're going to do annually now. And that's what Bet On Better is all about. So Vinnie, hopefully you'll be able to join us sometime to tell us about it on the podcast and inspire other events or maybe even just be a mentor to other fraternities that want to do the same thing or just community groups in general. Because I found it to just be focused on a purpose.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

And be together, but enjoyable.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

I get nervous when I'm starting to coordinate things that there's so many details. And it sounded to me that they were like, what are we doing? Like, what's the point? Let's be together, raise some money and. And enjoy each other's company tonight. So I thought that was really cool. And then a huge headline over last weekend was the Baller Dream Poker tournament at Circa. Speaking of bet on better, bet on better event. Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Well, first of all, Circa does a great job. One of our favorite places.

[Elle]

Yeah, we love it there.

[Joe Scales]

The Baller Dream Poker Tournament. I mean it, it's not just a tournament though. It's a full on experience.

[Elle]

Well, yeah, it's a celebrity poker. So you know, they pull in all sorts of NFL and you know, I don't know if there are sportscasters there or not, but there was just ton of, ton of celebs. Well, that were in attendance and playing.

[Joe Scales]

All of our baseball listeners will. Their ears will perk up because it was hosted by Greg Maddox.

[Elle]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Scales]

And of course Roger Clemens was there. Nick Carter was there for all the girls. But it, I mean, it was a poker tournament there. It was a. What do you say? Gala.

[Elle]

It's a full weekend.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. And then a hundred percent of the money that was raised during the event goes to the Baller Dream Foundation.

[Elle]

It does. And I think this, these funds in particular are earmarked for pediatric. Okay.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah.

[Elle]

But I did some more reading about the Baller Dream foundation because I wanted to find out who exactly started the foundation and why was it started and who are they serving? You know, with camp one step we wanted to learn where did this come from? Who are you serving? What's going on? And so just got me thinking, like, okay, we keep hearing about this. It's a very, very popular event every year. But then I just wanted to do a little digging and say, where did this start? Start? And who are they really serving? Right. So what come to find out. The Baller Dream foundation was started by Frank Zablazi and Frank actually was diagnosed with testicular cancer at age 29.

[Joe Scales]

Okay.

[Elle]

Living in northeast. And as he was going for treatments, he realized he's surrounded. I think he was in treatments for like four months. Okay. Like every day treatments for four months.

[Joe Scales]

Wow.

[Elle]

And as he's going in for treatments or staying even for treatments, he's realizing he's just surrounded by young adults and children who are alone. They didn't have people. And he's like, I am 29 years old and my mom is here every day with ginger ale and graham crackers after my treatment because she knows I'm going to be nauseous or she's just showing her support even if I don't want to Eat the crackers and drink the drink. Right. And so he just made a pact with himself that once, if I make it through this testicular cancer, then I'm going to create a way to be able to serve people who are in this situation. And so if I could just hug you, I would. Frank. Turning a difficult time in your life into a positive for others is always a win and a warm fuzzy in my book.

[Joe Scales]

The thing I loved was he didn't like being called a patient, so he came up with the baller.

[Elle]

Oh, yeah. And if you watch any of the footages, they. People will say, I'm a baller for life.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

You know, I love it. And, And. And if you're wondering, okay, where does this money go? Because, sure, it's a really fun event. They raised a million bucks. What now? Okay, there are five states participating.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

I think they're getting close to seven, if not already there. And what. Where this money goes is anything from education, G. To making sure that people have vehicles to get to, and from treatment to, like, room makeovers so that they can be safe and settled in a room and feel good about having to possibly be there for longer than they normally are. Shopping sprees, anything. It's similar to a Make a Wish foundation. It sounds like. Like he even. He even made sure a girl got to meet Guy Fiore and watch some of his recordings. And, I mean, it's just direct impact. Yeah, that's what I want to get to. It's. It's exactly what we hope for. Bet on Better is. Yes, the people who are there to raise the funds are having a great time around the poker table, but it's meaningful. It's a direct impact to battling cancer and. And to the families that are going through it. So, Frank, we applaud you, especially in this last weekend's events and look forward to seeing what you guys come up with next. Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

And of course, not everybody can go be a part of a VIP weekend.

[Elle]

Yeah, I know. We wish we could have. We couldn't make it this year.

[Joe Scales]

The same spirit for Bet on Better is happening on a different scale in

[Elle]

back in Chicago land. Yeah. Camp One Step just wrapped up and there's a new. There's another. There is another group Gaming for Green. Yes.

[Joe Scales]

They're back with their charity event supporting environmental beautification of the area. So helping, you know, cities grow so fast, and it's easy to just, you know, and before you know it, it's parking lots and buildings. Right, right. And so their initiative is to make sure. That it's not just that, the green spaces. Yeah. And it's. It's kept up. It's not trashy, you know, things like that. So they offer this poker tournament with casino games, food and drink, asylum, auction, I think.

[Elle]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Obviously their grand prize is another one of those $10,000 seats to the World Series of Poker main event.

[Elle]

Lots on the line.

[Joe Scales]

So if you want to get in, tickets right now are $175, but that price goes up after May 3, which is Sunday.

[Elle]

So you have Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

Buy that ticket if you're in the Chicagoland area and this is something that you want to do.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. And so go take. Go check that out. One of the. One of the reasons we love bet on better, the reason that it's important to us is because poker. Poker can get kind of a bad rap sometimes. But weekends like the one at Circa Gaming for green the camp, one step the. The ante up for autism at Schenectady.

[Elle]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Can't wait for that. Those remind us how poker can build community and, And. And raise money for important causes. It can literally change lives for.

[Elle]

Absolutely.

[Joe Scales]

For people on and off the felt.

[Elle]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Joe Scales]

So I would say whether you're playing in one of these $3,000 charity events or the $175 tournament, you're still betting on something bigger than poker chips.

[Elle]

And why do we mention this also is one. One thing that's near and dear to our hearts and that we hope you are hearing not only just in. In the reporting of how much was was raised or an opportunity to participate. You can do this at home. You could even do this with your home game once a quarter, once a year, and say, okay, all the money from here, we're going to go and help our neighbor who we know needs.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

I don't know, a new set of tires or whatever. I mean, this is. Yes. We're not all built to attend a 3, $500 gala. I don't have 3, $500 right now to go do that.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elle]

Would I? Sure. Because it would be something I would be excited to do. But I do have 35 bucks to say I want to help my neighbor or I want to help a specific cause. This is going to sound crazy, but there are diaper pantries around.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

What if you just tossed in X number of dollars, played, had fun with your friends, took all of that pot of money, went and bought a bunch of diapers, dropped them off at the diaper pantry. It makes an impact on people that you might not even Know or see or ever come into contact. But if you've ever been in need and somebody's helped you, pass it on, pass it forward, get involved somehow, some way. If you have a story that you'd like for us to highlight, that's another reason why we want to mention it, but please send it to [e-mail] we want to get the word out about the good stuff that's happening in our. In our communities and in our games. We're even getting ready to head out to something tonight. I can't wait. As soon as the podcast gets released, there is a local barbecue joint that's within walking distance of our house. Our neighbors, our friends, we all meet up there once a month. And the restaurant was actually going to go under. They looked for somebody to buy. Nobody was interested. And these two young guys happened to be brothers, said, we can't let this happen to our local barbecue joint. And in the past, what, six months to a year, they've done renovations, they've kept the lights on, and now they're throwing like a big bash in the parking lot. And we're going. They're going to have vans and they're going to have food and drink and we can take our chairs.

[Joe Scales]

This is hilarious. This is hilarious, too, because we were literally playing the Patreon game and fireworks.

[Elle]

Oh, I thought we were getting shot up. I was like, joe, Joe, I'm screaming, stop, Stop.

[Joe Scales]

And it turns out they were just shooting some promo. They shot off a bunch of fireworks for this promo that they're doing. Yeah, for tonight's big event. So hilarious. And then just meeting people when we get out and about.

[Elle]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Uh, we. We ran into a couple of guys here locally that. I mean, most of you that listen know bourbon and ginger is. Is one of our go to drinks.

[Elle]

Yeah. And we were just chatting and I, we. I just. Before we go, I've got to shout out Poor Choices Basement Bar, if you're on inst.

[Joe Scales]

P O U r. P O U

[Elle]

r. If you are a bourbon drinker, this is a guy that we just met. He's absolutely fantastic. But he is a collector of bourbon and a seller of bourbon. So if you're interested in some, maybe rare bottles or ones that you can't find locally or just something that you've been wanting to try, check him out. Poor Choices Basement Bar is his name. All one word on Instagram. So, Joe, so many things covered today.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elle]

As always, it's a pleasure being around this table with you.

[Joe Scales]

Likewise. Elliot Schechter joins us each week to say how he would rule on situations that come up in your games. And he's with us again this week. Elliot, how's it going?

[Elliot Schechter]

Things are going pretty nicely. Pax, how you doing today?

[Joe Scales]

I'm good, I'm good. We've, we got some much needed rain. It was, it was pretty bad here.

[Elliot Schechter]

Very nice.

[Joe Scales]

Which hopefully helps with the allergies because they've been pretty bad. To the point, to the point that when. So I sent an email out to People when the magazine is out and my email this time was like something about allergies. So I even, I even was thinking about it then. So we have a call. The floor this week is sent in by Andrew Herbacevsky and he's playing in a 48 limit Omaha game in a Las Vegas casino.

[Elliot Schechter]

Well, that narrows down the, the rooms he could be playing in.

[Joe Scales]

So a little bit about Andrew too. He gave me a little background on himself when he sent this in. He's been a listener for 20 plus years. He said Andrew and he said he had sent in one submission before and it was a hand of the week and he mentioned he may actually send in that same hand of the week to see if we would play it any different than Scott and Chris did, which would be interesting.

[Elliot Schechter]

Hand of the week revisited.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, exactly. But this time Andrew has this call the floor and he says in this case, three players remain on the turn. Player A bets 8, Player B calls and player C starts putting chips in, stacking $4 stacks and says effort. I'm going all in. I want to go home. Player C has at least two racks of chips behind while making the statement Player A and B protest saying it's a string raise and that that the statement of I'm going all in means the same thing as the sky is blue in a limit game, especially when chips are going into the pot in $4 stacks. Floor is called and rules has to be a raise, player A and B call, river is dealt, it checks around and player C wins the pot. He wants to know how you would roll on this and then he has a follow up afterwards. So we'll start with how you would rule this.

[Elliot Schechter]

Okay. Players A and B are right to protest here. He's already placing their his chips in the pot, player C and then makes well, the rather profane announcement of how he wants to go home. The chips being placed in the pot in turn are the action. Any statement in addition to that action is not to be counted because they had the chance to speak before they acted. So that statement, which should come, a warning not to use the F word, is not valid. And even if it were, again, they had already acted by placing chips in the pile.

[Elle]

So

[Elliot Schechter]

the statement is rendered null and void and. And to be disregarded. It's the only way to read it. Unless we got the order of actions incorrect. If they made the statement, then started placing chips, then I guess this can be a different kettle of fish. But as described, that's it. The bet speaks for itself, is a tried and true rule and keeps things orderly in our game. And therefore that's the way it needs to be regarded here too. Players A and B are right. Once you start placing chips in the pot and then try to make it a statement contrary to what you're currently doing or additionally to what you're doing, it can't be considered.

[Joe Scales]

So

[Elliot Schechter]

it's supposed to be a call here and not because of the statement. Let's make that clear. It's because they started putting chips in the pot and then decided to make a statement. Well, no, the first action is the bet. So therefore we're done.

[Joe Scales]

Well, let me. Before we get to the second part of the question, let me ask this question too, because it doesn't. He doesn't really say specifically on this, but I'm assuming he didn't have like a stack of chips and was counting them out in the middle. It sounds like he was sliding separate piles of chips into the middle.

[Elliot Schechter]

Right.

[Joe Scales]

But if, if he picked up just a stack of chips and was counting them out in the middle, that would be different though, right?

[Elliot Schechter]

Or no, that would be different.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elliot Schechter]

Yeah. If you're assembling chips in your bedding area, you haven't made a bet yet. If you're placing them forward into the pot, that's a lot different. Granted, most Las Vegas rooms don't use a betting line, so your betting area is, is fairly ill defined and generally means the area behind your cards. So yeah, it's possible that those ships may have been close to their stack, but forward of their cards and now a bet. So, yeah, there's a definitely many environmental considerations, but yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Okay. Well, obviously they, the floor in this case ruled it a call or they ruled it a raise. I mean, so Andrew says, after Elliot says how he would rule, he would like you to comment on this.

[Elliot Schechter]

Sure.

[Joe Scales]

Because Andrew was player B in this situation.

[Elliot Schechter]

Okay.

[Joe Scales]

And ended up leaving the room after the hand as he went bust. He said, I asked the floor on the way out why she did that. And she said that if she ruled that as a call, then it would open up for angle shooting. Andrew said, I said it wouldn't because of the way he was putting his chips in as he was speaking. I also said it's the same thing as saying pot in a fixed limit game. It doesn't mean anything. She insisted it would be a raise. I said, well. I said, well, it gives me something to write in and ask Elliot what he would rule. She looked at him like he had three heads. I guess he's not an ennep listener. He says, I forgot to mention to the floor and it was only the second hand for the dealers down that he's said at least a half dozen times in the previous hour how he's going to be going all in because he has. Because he's got to go home. So I don't know if that makes a difference in the situation either. But what do you think about detail matters?

[Elliot Schechter]

If somebody's been making unclear and ambiguous statements regarding their bet, then that player needs to be told to stop or explain why they shouldn't be doing that. So why the dealer didn't put an end to a. Sir, there, there is no going all in in this game. What are you doing? If it continues, you call the floor over and the floor explains them. You got to stop saying that. If you want to raise, say raise. If you want to call, say call. But saying you're moving all in is disruptive and, and puts us in a spot where we have to do something

[Patrick Guzzy]

that

[Elliot Schechter]

would not let you raise your call. In certain spots. We're going to make a decision based on what we see and what we hear as opposed to what you're thinking. So.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elliot Schechter]

You're gonna have to live by whatever decision we make regardless of that's your intention. So please stop.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Elliot Schechter]

So that wasn't handled correctly. And then the floor in the spot has a valid reason for making their decision. They don't want to allow. Allow people to make angles and mangle shots and, and find ways to bend the rules against the other players.

[Joe Scales]

But how, how does the ruling at a call open up for angle shooting? How explain that.

[Elliot Schechter]

Because I'm moving all in. Well, a guy who was thinking about the next three players who may have called the single bet are now obviously facing a raise and would fold. And then he's. And then either slides out of call or has been told to call only. And now these players are upset because they thought he was raising, which is not invalid in any way. It's a logical way to proceed. So I see the floor's point here. It's a non standard way of betting. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Betting the pot in a limit game is certainly not valid. You can't bet the pot, period. You can only bet the limit of the game.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elliot Schechter]

Just like betting the pot in a no limit game is not valid. Number one, nobody's counting the pot. Number two, the pot is not the limit. But in almost all cases in a no limit game, that player is going to be raising in some form. In a, in a no limit game, nobody can move all in unless it literally is their last chip. So yeah, the problem here is if you continue to allow that player to make statements, they're going to affect the action in ways that are beneficial to him by reducing the field without actually having the obligation or liability of placing extra chips in the pot. So I see the logic in what the floor is saying here and I, I, I imagine based on how they made the ruling and how they reacted and wow, obviously did not exactly give the best guest service in this spot. I see the lot and it seems like they consistently or at least most of the time make that decision. That way they need to train their dealers better to call the floor over when people are making these kinds of statements so that this doesn't happen or happens less. But the logic is there.

[Joe Scales]

So it, it sounds if they're gonna,

[Elliot Schechter]

if they're gonna move all in before they place chips and I'm moving all in or I'm betting all in, I'm, I'm inclined to, I'm inclined to stop the action. As a dealer, I never put up with it. But if I'm flooring for a dealer who obviously doesn't know how to stop the game or refuses to intervene,

[Joe Scales]

I've

[Elliot Schechter]

got to base it on the context that players acted afterwards. I'm almost always going to make them put the extra bet in. If players didn't act afterwards and stopped the game going to find out what was going on. Right. That means getting all the information. So it sounds a different call.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, it sounds to me like what you're saying is that the, the allow, what allows the angle here is not stopping them earlier from saying they're going to go all in or making these kind of statements more so probably than this being a call as opposed to a raise.

[Elliot Schechter]

Yeah, the setup was there. By consistently allowing this without saying anything, you're allowing the angle to be created and then shot. So yeah, yeah, stuff like this needs to be tamped down and put to an end and to let it consistently go on. And then you're putting the floor in a spot, or the floor is putting themselves in a spot where they have to make a ruling like this, which is not entirely illogical. Let's face it, it really isn't illogical. It doesn't mean it, it follows the nature of common rules. Again, I'm going all in as different than saying I bet the pot. So let's not equate them. But I mean, I would have taken context into account. But if that's the way that particular poker room rules it and they do it consistently like that, obviously they're, they're, they're not putting a stop to incorrect behavior and statements, which is not good, but at least they're keeping their rulings consistent, which is better than not fair. I'm going all in. If you say that before it's your turn, before you place the chip in the pot, in a lot of places they're going to make you raise. Some places won't let you race because obviously it has no meaning in that particular game. But again, let's draw this out further. One of the details placed in here was this person had a couple of racks of chips. Well, yeah, it's 48. It's an $8 betting round. That's the turn. What if this player had 18 chips and they said, I'm moving all in? Well, sir, you can only make it 16. You gotta wait for somebody else to raise. Or you have to wait for another betting round to get your last two chips in. They're almost always going to let that person bet because the guy's thinking, well, I'll have three bets, so why wouldn't they let me place all my chips in the pot? Well, you can't have two different rules just because based on somebody's stack size, that makes zero sense. It's completely unfair.

[Joe Scales]

Right.

[Elliot Schechter]

So this is not a black and white. Oh, yeah. This is automatically merely a call. His statement means nothing. He doesn't get the raise ever. That is not the situation we're talking about here. I wish life were that simple. In indeed it is not. So, yeah, you want the fairest, most logical outcome. And if a guy's going to be affecting the action by his, by their statements, you want to make those statements binding and right. You want to, you certainly don't want to let the guy shoot the angle that the floor is describing here. By having the impact of a raise and the effect of a raise without the actual liability and cost of a Raise. So that's a pretty valid point. Maybe not articulated well and certainly not articulated in a, in a, in a polite and respectful manner, but certainly a point well worth making. Again, as you stated and as I stated, policing this stuff has to happen. It just can't be allowed to go on at all to the point where it affects your games and loses you players.

[Joe Scales]

It's the allowing somebody to do it over and over and over again that causes this to be a problem. If somebody makes a joke one time, you go, ha, don't say that again. Then the game runs smooth from there. But allowing them to continue to do these things. And it sounds like in this case it was only the second hand, I think he said of this dealer's down. So he obviously didn't know that this player had been saying this over and over and over again. But then that's when it's on the players to let the dealer know that he's been saying this over and over again.

[Elliot Schechter]

So it's on the dealer first, unless dealer second handed the down. So they wouldn't know. So at that point you're correct. Now it's on the dealers to, hey, this guy keeps doing that. It has to stop. Yeah. At some point the floor had to have been involved earlier and was not. So yeah, it leads you in spots like this.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. So hopefully we can get this person listening and then maybe they get it right in the future.

[Elliot Schechter]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

But I appreciate you sending that in. And if anyone has a call to floor that they would like to know how Elliott would roll, send it to podcastdiotmagazine.com Elliot, we'll see you next week.

[Elliot Schechter]

Absolutely. Looking forward to him.

[Podcast Intro Announcer]

Patrick's a fish, but he's learning in this hand might be his last.

[Joe Scales]

Welcome to Hand of the week where Patrick, resident fish, and I dive into listener submitted hands each week. We tackle everything from questionable bluffs to hero calls and the hands that make you scratch your head. Whether you like strategy tips or you just want to see if you would have played it any better, we've got you covered. Patrick, how's it going, man?

[Patrick Guzzy]

You know, Joe, I, I'm all right. I, as, as some of our fans and listeners out there, you know, know, I do play, you know, some poker. I'm getting better at it. I also follow some sports that we talk about on a, you know, this is a poker podcast. This is not a hockey podcast or a Boston podcaster Virginia Tech podcast or anything. But, you know, I'll address a few things out there, you know, for all the the haters. Since we last recorded, our skipper, AC Alex Corda, has been fired from the Boston Red Sox along with legendary Jason Veratech and a handful of others. A handful of others. I really care less. They weren't doing great, but those two. So that being said, I highly doubt that John Henry, the owner of Fenway Sports Group, or Craig Breslow, who. Just his name just. Well, every time I say it, I just want to vomit a little bit. The general manager of the Red Sox listen to this podcast, but on the off chance that they do, you should fire yourselves. John Henry, you should take the Red Sox out of the Fenway Marketing Group, or whatever you want to call it these days, because you're not doing right by them. And, yeah, that's the official statement from the Patrick Guzzy death desk of Patrick Guzzy.

[Joe Scales]

Okay, well, there's more sports in Boston than the Red Sox, from what I understand. Look, I'm not. I'm not a hockey guy, but

[Patrick Guzzy]

how does.

[Joe Scales]

Bruins.

[Elliot Schechter]

Yeah.

[Patrick Guzzy]

So we got off to a rough start. That being said, a little peek behind the curtain as. As we're recording this early to get this out for Friday. The. The Bruins did win in overtime. Another healthy serving of pasta in overtime. So we. We forced the game six back in Boston. And I'll just, you know, so. So just listen. From back in the day, the old saying was, don't let us win tonight. That's how we ended up sweeping. Not sweeping, but winning four straight against the Yankees. Just don't let us win tonight. We'll see what happens. And while we're at it, you know, you don't even have to bring it up. I can just address the other sports team in Boston. Mike Brable is a very good family man that made some mistakes. Seems like quite a few mistakes over the last five or six years. I don't know that, you know, can

[Joe Scales]

we say family man?

[Patrick Guzzy]

You know, I. I'm still holding on to that for now because he is working with his wife and family to. To make up for his mistakes and his, um, what seems like transgressions. Um, I don't condone it whatsoever. I'm going on record for that. I. I would never. I like him as a football coach. I don't respect what he did. I hope he turns it around and. And his wife and him can make it work if that's what he and she wants to do, more importantly, I guess. But that being said, Boston sports is kind of on. Like it's on fire. Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Dumpster fire.

[Patrick Guzzy]

A dumpster fire. To say the least, the Celtics are good, but they just got shellacked the other night, too. So, you know, to answer your original question before this, what is now about a three minute rant, I'm not great as far as a Boston sports fan, but life is still good, my friend. So you know what? See me again next week.

[Elliot Schechter]

Okay?

[Joe Scales]

Okay. Well, let's play some poker and see how this works out.

[Patrick Guzzy]

That'll make you very happy because look, I. I'm.

[Joe Scales]

I just made it one line into this, this email, this submission that's sent in by Chris shepherd. And he says, love the show, especially when Patrick gets himself in trouble, which feels like often.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Appreciate it. Chris, have you ever heard the old saying of, you know, beating a man when he's down, pouring salt on a wound. Great. Bring it on.

[Joe Scales]

I love it. This hand comes from a 13 game. The table just started. We have played five or six hands, and most people bought in for $500.

[Elliot Schechter]

Okay.

[Joe Scales]

Under the gun, folds in this hand. Chris is under the gun plus one. All right, well, he's got the jack of spades, jack of diamonds, everyone's favorite pocket jacks.

[Patrick Guzzy]

That's. That's your absolute favorite hand there.

[Joe Scales]

And we're under the gun plus one. What do you think?

[Patrick Guzzy]

I. So, you know, you're just starting. Do you set the precedent that, you know, you're going to be the villain, you know, you know, you got to tell your story right out the gate. Right. I mean, it got, you know. Did he say what, how many handed this was? How many seats were at it? Is it six, eight?

[Joe Scales]

He didn't say how many players. I'm assuming there's gotta be eight players or. Yeah.

[Patrick Guzzy]

So, I mean, you're probably going to 16 to 20, right?

[Joe Scales]

16. Going big.

[Patrick Guzzy]

I'm going big. I'm going 16.

[Joe Scales]

Okay. Well, I had made up my mind that if you said you were calling, I was getting up and leaving. Like, you just finish out the hand yourself. Like,

[Patrick Guzzy]

No, as Chris said, I like to get myself in trouble, but that's later in the hand sometimes. Yeah, I. At least today, I. Yeah, I. You definitely got a bet here. I mean, you've got, you know, quite a few potential callers and, you know, every, you know, after you. So you got to make it worth.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Patrick Guzzy]

You know, tell them to pay off.

[Joe Scales]

Definitely raising.

[Patrick Guzzy]

I'm going 16.

[Joe Scales]

To your point, though, we probably get called by at least one player even if we go big like you.

[Patrick Guzzy]

So I'm gonna go especially early on.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go a Little on the smaller side. I'm gonna go 12.

[Elle]

Okay.

[Joe Scales]

Four times the big blind. And, you know, people don't like to play jacks, and so they tend to go big. Like you.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

With them. So I think it gives away a lot of information to do that as well. But it looks like Chris is in this same camp. He went 15.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Okay. Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

And it folds to the middle position player who calls and he says he's a thinking player. Not too out of line, cutoff folds and the button, who's been pretty aggressive, raises to $60. So aggressive.

[Patrick Guzzy]

I mean, my God, what are we, five handed or five hands in? Excuse me, not five handed, five hands in.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I was gonna say he's been pretty aggressive is his explanation. But we're, we're five or six hands in, so I don't know what kind of sample size we, we're basing that on. But anyway, he does. He raises to $60, the blinds fold, and it's back to us.

[Patrick Guzzy]

I, I think if this was not five hands in or six hands in, whatever he said, and we just, you know, hadn't gotten started, then I'm probably folding jacks. But this early on, I kind of want to. Yeah, I'm, I'm calling. At least let me see the flop. I. It's worth it for me to see the flop at 60.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I, you just, I mean, just saying the F word there scared me. Like folding. No, you said it. That scared me. Right, right now. Right now is when we have the streak. There are a lot of flops that can shrink our advantage.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Absolutely.

[Joe Scales]

So I'm going to 4Bet here. I'm, I, I'm thinking, I'm thinking I'm going to 180. That's three times his bet. Now, there is a problem with the 4 bet. I was thinking about this. The, the fact that you're holding jacks. We're committing a lot of our chip.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Oh, that too.

[Joe Scales]

But we do still have fold equity. If he five bets us, we can look at the possibility of folding then. But he could be raising there with ace, king or pocket tens or even worse than that right now. So, yeah, I feel comfortable with, with the 4 bet, and I feel pretty certain that's going to get that middle position player to fold as well. So that's what I'm doing. Chris says I think for a bit and decide to call. Planning to play post flop and keep worse hands in middle position tanks and calls as well.

[Patrick Guzzy]

You don't love that.

[Joe Scales]

So we go three ways to the flop. There's $185 in the pot. Is that right? 66. 80.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah, but it should be 184.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. 184 in the pot. The flop is nine of clubs, seven of hearts, four of spades. Pretty clean flop for Jax, he says, and we're first to act.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah, you're not gonna like this.

[Joe Scales]

Probably not.

[Patrick Guzzy]

You're not gonna like it at all. I am playing, all right. My gut says. My gut says check pot. A little bit of pot control. I'm gonna call whatever he bets. I'm okay with that. Let him think on whatever. I still am in a great position. You know, there's really not a whole lot of. There's not really a straight draw necessarily out there. There's definitely no. I. I'm feeling good with jacks. Then why play a little pot control

[Joe Scales]

if you're feeling good with jacks? Why are you checking?

[Patrick Guzzy]

Because I feel like Mr. Aggressive Button. I'm going to end up putting all my chips in at some point, and I don't want to yet. You don't like that thought process at all. I can see that.

[Joe Scales]

I don't. I don't. Chris is absolutely right. This is a great flop for us.

[Patrick Guzzy]

It is. He's also right that I get myself in trouble

[Joe Scales]

by checking. This is. This is where people get weird with Jax. And, you know, while I want to bet, I don't want to go astronomical, but I want to put something in there. A lot of people go one of two ways. They either go your way and check, which I don't agree with, or they go to the other extreme and put out some huge number of chips. And they. They'll say, I would rather take it down now. Right?

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

But I'm gonna go on that middle road, and I'm gonna bet $60, which is like a third pot.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Can I turn this around on you and ask. What if he3 bets you the button? That is. I'm not real worried about middle position at the moment, but. Are you calling. Are you coming over the top and shoving?

[Joe Scales]

I may put it all in. I. That is a great flop for us.

[Patrick Guzzy]

It is. The only thing that beats us right now is aces, kings, or queens.

[Joe Scales]

Right. But he didn't. He didn't come over the top on us when we. When we4bet.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Right.

[Joe Scales]

So probably not aces, probably not kings. He might have queens. That would be the. The concern. But.

[Patrick Guzzy]

But he's not. He's not in this with nine sevens or fours, so he doesn't have a set. I mean, Right. Could he have. Could he have, you know, eight, ten. No, probably not, but maybe suited. So, yeah, I, I, again, I feel great about my jacks. I guess my thought is I'm going to find out more by checking and letting him bet of that bet. Sizing about what he may or may not have.

[Joe Scales]

Let me. Let me ask you. Let me challenge you on that. Then what are you learning? And what are you learning then?

[Patrick Guzzy]

I'm learning that depending on sizing, I mean, anything less than. In my humble opinion, anything less than half a pot is, you know, ace, king, ace, queen. You know, he still feels good about it, but he didn't pair anything up. I mean, if he goes half pot or more, maybe I'm starting to worry more about queens or kings. At least it's a thought.

[Joe Scales]

Okay. All right. This. I just. I want to get called by some of those smaller pairs and any of that weak back door kind of stuff. I don't want to be afraid of an ace or a king coming out, so I want to keep building the pot. So that's why I'm putting $60 in. It looks like Chris is in your camp, though. He checks okay, and so does middle position and the button bets 75.

[Patrick Guzzy]

So again, that kind of. To me, that's a, you know, ace, king. I'm still feeling good. Ace, queen. I'm still feeling good. I. I'm definitely calling at least.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Patrick Guzzy]

But as crazy as this sounds, this might be the Alamo. My last stand right here.

[Joe Scales]

Check. Raise.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah, buddy.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I think. I mean, raising could definitely be a possibility. That was the first thing that went in my head. As soon as he said $75, the first thing that went into my head was, okay, fine, let's. Let's check. Raise then. But it is going to fold out a lot of hands that we want to stay in there. So I could be okay with a call for sure.

[Patrick Guzzy]

My only thought process. Then again, same thing with you. When he said 75, I'm like, ha ha ha ha.

[Joe Scales]

Ch.

[Patrick Guzzy]

It's like, oh, you know, I don't want to see obviously an acer king come out. I. I mean, that's kind of where in my head is like an ace, king, ace, queen, ace, ten. You know, I. I feel like he's got an ace in his hand, so force him to. To make it now and again, if we do get him to fold, I mean, we're taking out a pretty nice pot right out the gate with everyone's least favorite hand. I'm okay with that. I do love Getting.

[Joe Scales]

Okay, okay. I do love that we're getting this much action five or six hands into this.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah. I mean, if I'm sitting here on a Patreon game night and this is happening five games in, I am profusely sweating at my kitchen table. I need, like, a paper towel after this.

[Joe Scales]

I mean, we're, we're playing cash, too. It's a little bit different. You're not going to lose and be out, so.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah, that's a valid point. You can buy back in. Yeah.

[Elliot Schechter]

Okay.

[Joe Scales]

Chris says back on me, and now I'm already not loving life. I. I don't understand that.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Like, maybe he's a Boston sports fan.

[Joe Scales]

Like, you said yourself that this is. This is a great flop for Jax. So this, this is.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Joe, you should write a book, right? Write a book. Start today with the fallacies of playing jacks, because this is what happens, and it's, it's everyone. I mean, I'm sure even, you know, even you at some point, you've fallen into, you know, what, what did I just do with, you know, pocket jacks. I mean, that's. It's wild. It's wild what the phenomenon does to you.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, yeah. People freak out because it's jacks. He says. This feels like a spot where I'm either way ahead or way behind. And I, I have to tell you, Chris, I. I don't see how you can be way behind here. Yeah, he says. I decide to call. And middle position folds. So with $334 in the pot, now I feel like I have to check that 75 is 150. So there's this.

[Patrick Guzzy]

He just mistyped the first time. That's right.

[Joe Scales]

Okay, the turn is the queen of diamonds. He says, not my favorite card.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Definitely didn't want an over card there.

[Joe Scales]

Right. Playing Chris, I feel like that's only issue we have is one over card.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah. Well, middle position. The thinker Nostradamus is out.

[Joe Scales]

So we're.

[Patrick Guzzy]

We're the heads up. Playing Chris's hand. I think I'm checking back.

[Joe Scales]

You're gonna check again?

[Patrick Guzzy]

I would have raised after the flop. After. I would have checked. Raise there after the flop. But I think I'm gonna check.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I think I can check. Then if he bets anywhere up to, like, half pot, I snap.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Call. Yep.

[Joe Scales]

We start getting over half pots where I start thinking about, well, ace, queen, maybe he feels good. Something like that. Chris checks again, and the button fires 175. So, yeah, I call.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yep. I call, too. Yep.

[Joe Scales]

There's still a lot of bluffs out there. That's the only overcar door jacks. Yes they could have ace queen. Yes they could have king queen. They could even have queen jack even. But I'm not, I'm not folding just yet.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yep.

[Joe Scales]

Chris says now I'm really in the blender. Feels like this card smashes a lot of his three bet range. Ace, queen, king, queen. Maybe even pocket Queensland. But at the same time he's aggressive enough to barrel here with air after a long tank. I call. So that puts 684 in the pot and the river is the three of clubs. And Chris says brick as far as I can tell.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah. I mean not a club. Seven of hearts, four of spades, queen of diamonds, three clubs.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, I should have been reading. I should have been recapping the stream.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah, no you're good. I mean that's where we're at. I mean. You shove right. I mean we don't have a ton left. No we don't.

[Joe Scales]

Anyways I think this is, this is a little bit of a quandary I guess like on one hand I can check and get to showdown because we have showdown value. Try to get to showdown cheap and, and hope we we have the winning hand or we can be the one putting the aggression on if we're willing to call it off anyway.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

And I can make a case for both of those but I think in my, in my mind right now I'm thinking I can just check, try to see, try to see the river for free or cheap knowing that you're going to call anyway because the only thing we can do if we bet we can only shove. We can't put out some kind of small blocker bet that's not going to be believable at all. So yeah, I think I check. Call. Chris says I check for the third time and the button quickly announces all in covering my roughly 250

[Patrick Guzzy]

snap call showdown.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah, yeah, I think so too. He says so now I've got one pair and a decision for my stack. He says my thoughts would he really triple barrel air here. Do players at 13 find this bluff enough or am I just paying off Ace, queen, kings, aces all day. Says I tanked for what felt like forever. And I'll let you guys decide what I should do before I tell you what I actually did. And he has a couple of questions before we even get there. He says should I be for betting pretty? I think so. But Patrick differed on that.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

Is the flop or turn a better Decision point. I don't know what he's asking there. Like he has been shoved in there.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah. Or well, yeah, a decision point. I guess at that point is the, is it a better decision? I mean, with that flop, I mean, you're sitting in great position. Hell, he even said it.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Patrick Guzzy]

So yeah, you check, raise that bad boy right then hard.

[Joe Scales]

And then his last question is, and river, is this just a crying call or a disciplined fold? So we both agree we're calling, right?

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah, 100%, no questions asked.

[Joe Scales]

And he says after a long tank, I call. He immediately tables the ace of spades. King of spades for ace high.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Winna winna.

[Joe Scales]

So my jacks are good and I scoop a pretty big one. But the guy loses his mind and can't believe I called there with jacks. So now I'm second guessing everything. Dude, don't let me tell you, don't let this guy get in your head just because he lost a pot and wants to whine about it. Don't let that think make you think that you're a terrible poker player. Not making the right moves.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Chris, as you're pulling, as you're, as you're pulling your chips in. Chris. And he's whining and griping and moaning, just look at him and say, well, you should have told a better story.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Head down. Don't even look him in the eye. Just gather all his chips up. Yeah, you can't. We wanted. About that. You're bluffing. I mean, you literally had nothing and you were hoping that, you know, someone was going to panic and get off of it. Well, guess what? We didn't.

[Joe Scales]

He says, is this a good call or just a good result? I think it's a good call.

[Patrick Guzzy]

It's both.

[Joe Scales]

Should I have made a decision earlier in the hand? Again, I'm not, I mean, yes, you should. You made a decision. You just made a decision to check and not check raise. So I. Not sure I understand that question completely, but I think that there were some points in there where you can definitely put the pressure on them, if that's what you're asking.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

He says how often are players actually pulling the trigger like this in these games? Pulling the trigger. So he's saying like the third barrel bluff there.

[Patrick Guzzy]

I'm assuming if you're playing a cash game, I feel like there's always one guy that's good for one of those. Hell, I do it, you know, playing cash game. I mean, it's. I could see myself getting pretty deep into that one with Ace, king, you know, waiting for, you know, an ace or king, especially with that flop, you know, I not going to do it all the time, but there's definitely guys out there for it, right?

[Joe Scales]

And I'll say this, like, typically, you'll see a lot of players sit down at a 13 table and buy in for the 300, right? Because that's your hunger. 100, big blinds, 300. If you're playing two, five, it's 500, you know, and so on and so forth. One, two, they buy in for 200. The fact that most of this table bought in for 500, you can feel pretty confident that they're ones that are going to be using those chips to apply pressure. That's the reason that they have more of them is they want to use them to apply pressure. So from that standpoint, I think that, you know, that that's an. That's an indication that, that you're going to have more people pulling the trigger in these kind of spots. But to kind of give you a little bit more ammo here about why this is a good call out, you're definitely getting good pot odds. You know, there's a lot of bluffs that he can have still there. And this is exactly how you beat aggressive players. You call them down with medium strength hands when the board doesn't crush you. Right?

[Elliot Schechter]

Yep.

[Joe Scales]

I feel like if you fold there, that's probably overfolding and this guy is tilting because he expected you to fold jacks, which means hopefully he'll keep giving you those spots. So don't second guess the call. File it away as information. You played the hand well. I would say you could adjust slightly and put more aggression in early, but I think you navigated it very well.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Yeah.

[Joe Scales]

So I agree. Well done.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Very well done, Chris. I like that one.

[Joe Scales]

Yeah. So thank you, Chris, for sending that in. If anyone has a hand of the week that they would like to know how Patrick and I would play it, send it to podcastnetmagazine.com I got sidetracked there because he, he put in there that he was from North Carolina. So. Cool. It just caught my attention. But yeah, send that to podcasting magazine.com Patrick. We'll see you next week.

[Patrick Guzzy]

Sound like a plan D, Jeff,

[Elle]

Let's

[Joe Scales]

talk about the phrase sunk cost fallacy. Now, I know there are some business majors that listen to the show whose ears just perked up a little bit, but I'm talking about this in terms of poker. Let me give you an example. You're in a hand someone puts In a decent sized raise, pre flop. And you call. It's not a bad call. You've got something playable. But the flop comes down and it's an interesting flop. You hit a pair, maybe pick up a draw, something that gives you hope. Your opponent bets and you have something. So you call. Now the pot's getting bigger. The turn comes and it's a brick. Nothing improves. Your draw didn't get there. That pair that felt okay on the flop now feels pretty thin. And your opponent fires again, this time even bigger. Deep down, you know you're beat. You know that bet is telling a pretty clear story. But instead of listening to that little voice, another voice gets louder, talking about how much you've put in the pot already and how far you've come, trying to convince you that you just can't fold now. So you call because you feel like you're committed to what you've already spent. That is sunk cost fallacy in action. And we fall into this trap all the time. We convince ourselves that chips we've already invested somehow belong to us. Like folding means we're giving something up. But those chips are already gone. They don't belong to us anymore. The only thing that matters is this decision right now on the turn. And honestly, if that exact same bet came at you fresh, with no prior investment, no emotional attachment, you'd probably fold without even thinking twice. But because you've come this far, you keep going. And that's how a manageable loss turns into a stack, damaging one. The thing we have to remember is that the pot is not ours just because we contributed to it. Sometimes the most profitable play is letting go. Don't think of it in terms of what have I already put in? Think of it more of what is this decision worth? And don't be afraid to fold on the river or the turn. That's the discipline and control that we have to have to stay in the game long enough to find a better spot. The past is gone and the future is still yours to control. The goal isn't to prove you were right to get involved in the first place. The goal is to make the best decision you can right now. That's today's one outer. And that's today's show. I'll see you next week, a team. And until then, I'll see you at the tables.

[Elliot Schechter]

The Antiop podcast is a production of Antioupmagazine.com contact the show at podcastsnyupmagazine.com or call the show show at 540-339-7741. If you'd like to advertise, send an email to editoryupmagazine.com this is the story

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