Joe Scales (3:16)

Containers. They're your favorite. Yeah. You know, I'm pretty Sure. Everybody listening knows who I'm pulling for in the Super Bowl.

Elle (3:25)

Not the Patriots.

Joe Scales (3:26)

Correct. Is that the same for you? I would never even ask.

Elle (3:30)

Listen, I was at PT earlier today, and one of the girls there was like, are you watching? I'm like, yeah, I'm always going to watch. But she was like, well, who are you rooting for? And I said, against the Patriots. And she was like,

Joe Scales (3:48)

oh, proud moment for me.

Elle (3:50)

Right. The guys were like, I don't even think we're gonna engage with that conversation. So, anyhow, yeah, I mean, it's no surprise. We're sad.

Joe Scales (4:03)

Right.

Elle (4:03)

But we didn't know Josh Allen had a broken foot the last two games. We also didn't anticipate the calls that we were going to get. Yada, yada, yada. We digress. But I mean, so the game itself, I'm not super excited about. I just would against them.

Joe Scales (4:24)

Yeah.

Elle (4:24)

And sorry. What's up, Doc? I know it's your team.

Joe Scales (4:27)

Right. And not. Sorry, Patrick. Appreciate you both, but that's what you get Patrick, for not showing up for the Patreon game last night.

Elle (4:40)

That's also. That's what makes the world go around. That's why we have so many different teams and we have fans from all different backgrounds and I don't know. Anyhow, I'm excited. I'm looking forward to Sunday. We're hanging out with kids and grandkids and we're gonna have a blast.

Joe Scales (4:55)

Yeah.

Elle (4:56)

So we've also just had crap weather, so I'm excited to look forward to something else.

Joe Scales (5:01)

100%.

Elle (5:01)

I'm not in our house. Yeah.

Joe Scales (5:05)

This trip to Arizona could not come fast enough. It cannot come fast enough.

Elle (5:09)

March, we're ready for you already. I don't want to skip February, but, like, I can't wait to get to Gila River.

Joe Scales (5:15)

I hear people are out there in shorts. They're golfing.

Elle (5:18)

Oh, yeah. This is like the best time of the year.

Joe Scales (5:22)

I am ready to trade snow and ice for some good weather and some good poker at Gila River.

Elle (5:33)

Yeah. And they've added some new tournaments to the last time we released information, which is really exciting because they're going to play some mixed games. So the 16th, there's the last and final satellite into the main event, the 17th of March, which I am so excited we're going to be there on St. Patrick's Day. How fun.

Joe Scales (5:52)

I didn't even think about it.

Elle (5:53)

I know. Yeah. So that's going to be. I'm curious to see what kind of promotions they have. Going on 17th, they've added mixed games. It's deuce to seven, triple draw, ace to five, triple draw, and badoogie, badoogie, badoogie.

Joe Scales (6:08)

All in the same tournament. Not, not individual tournaments. It's a, it's a triple draw tournament. And then they, they added a mega stack tournament as well.

Elle (6:17)

Right. So it was, it's not going to be the only, the main event. Oh, and there's also a high roller plo.

Joe Scales (6:24)

Yeah.

Elle (6:24)

So check it out on the website. We're going to get those, the schedule updated. Thank you so much to Gila river for throwing in some more fun and some mixed games and some high roller games as well. So we're really looking forward to that. I know the competition is going to be stiff. I'm really just looking forward to getting out to Arizona and seeing the culture 100%.

Joe Scales (6:43)

Yeah. And just to reiterate, they do have that last satellite on the 16th, but satellites are running now. Now, like they're going to keep running them all the way up until things start. So I just, you know, I know it's the middle of March, St. Patrick's Day. I didn't even think about. That's cool. That's really cool. But we've got about a month, I mean, a little over a month before we're going to be there, so.

Elle (7:13)

Yeah, you've got four weeks. I will tell you, it doesn't seem. I was nervous about flights out there. Super easy.

Joe Scales (7:20)

Yeah.

Elle (7:21)

Easy peasy. Not expensive. Unlike going. I mean, I think it's cheaper to go there than Vegas, right?

Joe Scales (7:27)

Oh, 100%.

Elle (7:28)

I don't know that we could even get to New York or Florida for the price that we paid to get to Arizona. So anyhow, come join us if you're looking for something fun to do in March. Right before spring kicks off.

Joe Scales (7:39)

Yeah. And also spring training is going to be down there for baseball in Arizona.

Elliot Sher (7:45)

What?

Joe Scales (7:46)

Yeah.

Elle (7:47)

Oh, we could catch a game.

Joe Scales (7:49)

Yeah, yeah. Friends already said that they're looking for some tickets for me. So what I am excited about that.

Elle (7:57)

I might get a tattoo over there.

Joe Scales (7:59)

There you go. See, everybody's got something to look forward to.

Elle (8:02)

There's a really cool micro tattoo parlor there. What does that mean, a micro Small thin lines. Not the big bold that everybody's used to seeing. It's not like the sailor tattoos, the army tattoo. It's like delicate.

Joe Scales (8:14)

Okay.

Elle (8:15)

So there's a lot of exciting things that could happen in March.

Joe Scales (8:19)

There you go. Are you going to get an ante up tattoo?

Elle (8:22)

Absolutely not. I'm not joining that team. There is already several, several individuals out there that have ante up tattoos in places that I don't even want to know.

Joe Scales (8:32)

Right.

Elle (8:33)

Actually, really and truly, this happened on a cruise many, many years ago. We have met several of these people. I asked not to see them.

Joe Scales (8:41)

Right.

Elle (8:42)

Because I was shocked. But I also am just. Yes, there is an ante up tattoo out there. I'm not. Not there yet. I don't. It would be my first tattoo.

Joe Scales (8:50)

Right, Right.

Elle (8:51)

So I'm starting out very small, but we'll see. Anyhow, can we please talk about last night?

Elliot Sher (8:57)

Sure.

Joe Scales (8:59)

There's not a lot to talk about from my standpoint.

Elle (9:01)

Yeah. You were out in the second hand.

Joe Scales (9:02)

Third. I meant it. Three hands. I folded one.

Elle (9:08)

Okay. So tell me, tell me about that because that is not a norm.

Joe Scales (9:10)

Right.

Elle (9:11)

As a matter of fact, just cards. Love that you asked him and said you don't. You're not used to just watching.

Joe Scales (9:19)

No, he's not in the tournament. Some maniac me ends up getting all their chips in. And I remember high full house. I had jacks full of kings and Te Titan had aces full of jacks. Yes. And he took my chips and never looked back. Like he rolled through the field.

Elle (9:45)

Yeah. He's still the bounty. As a matter of fact, he took the whole thing down last night.

Joe Scales (9:48)

Yeah.

Elle (9:49)

I got a little sloppy half the way through, but I kept getting lots of two pairs. And that always messes me up because I always feel strong with them and then they're not or I don't know. I got a little shovey in some cases, too. People were even chatting. Yeah. Because I was talking to my college roommate while I was playing.

Joe Scales (10:08)

Yeah.

Elle (10:08)

But everybody was still chatting like, you really want this pot? And I'm like, yes. I told you already how much I bet.

Joe Scales (10:13)

I'm telling you the truth.

Elle (10:14)

I would like this. Yes, I would. But even when the game was over, those of us that were in discord.

Joe Scales (10:20)

Yeah. Chatted. I told. I told people in the discord that my one outer just ended up being written last. Last night during the game. Because I'm like, I mean, you have to play it the way you play. I don't think I would do anything any different. I might have been able to. To push a little bit more early, but even if I did, I think he would play the same because he has aces.

Elle (10:48)

Yeah.

Joe Scales (10:49)

Yeah.

Elle (10:49)

Who left that hockey rockets in that moment?

Joe Scales (10:52)

Yeah. So that, that, that stunned. Check that out later. My one adder will be from last night's game.

Elle (10:59)

Yeah. That Stung a little.

Patrick (11:00)

It did sting a little.

Elle (11:02)

There was some crazy stuff, though. I mean, I. I knocked some people out with just pure river rat luck.

Joe Scales (11:09)

Yeah, you did.

Elle (11:11)

I was also reminded of it multiple times. But I appreciate that because it's true, because it happened to me. That's how I got knocked out. And I was like, gosh. And then somebody said, yeah, but you knocked me out that wing.

Joe Scales (11:20)

Yeah. And I mean, there was quads last night.

Elle (11:23)

Quad threes.

Joe Scales (11:24)

Yeah. So lots of. Lots of things.

Elle (11:29)

We jokingly say this, but I do kind of see it a little bit. We got poker starred.

Joe Scales (11:34)

Yeah. Yeah.

Elle (11:35)

It's still a little wonky when you're playing computer.

Joe Scales (11:38)

Yeah. I know that people say, and I've said it myself, like, when you're playing online, you see more hands faster, right?

Elle (11:45)

Yes.

Joe Scales (11:46)

And so you're gonna see more crazy hands.

Elle (11:49)

Okay, that makes sense.

Joe Scales (11:50)

But I mean, still, quads, boat over boat. All these things happen in such a short span of time. I. It's always hard. I think that. And I've talked about this on the podcast before, like. Right. It's not so much I don't believe that. That things are rigged.

Elle (12:11)

Right.

Joe Scales (12:11)

But they do encourage the hands, do encourage action.

Elle (12:16)

That's fair. So I could see that.

Joe Scales (12:18)

Yeah, Yeah, I can see that. So, yeah.

Elle (12:23)

I do want to say one thing.

Joe Scales (12:24)

Yeah.

Elle (12:24)

And I am patting myself on the back. I did fold a lot when I. You're eating the last one.

Elliot Sher (12:34)

Wow.

Elle (12:35)

Noted. I will remember that on Sunday. And I will eat the last wing. So. Did notice there were points last night where I just tried not to let my emotion or desire to play. Because you're right, it is set up for action. But then there are lulls where you're like, could I just. I mean, sure, Pops even said card dead would be better than what I'm getting. You know, I mean.

Joe Scales (13:01)

Yeah,

Elle (13:03)

I just. I. What I'm trying to say is online games make me half force me to think faster, make decisions faster. And so it challenges me and that's why I really enjoy it. And I really enjoy playing in the environment that we have that we're learning each other. It does truly feel like a home game that I look forward to. The mixed games still push me out of my comfort zone. I still play, I attempt. But I do really look forward to. To playing hold Em every month.

Joe Scales (13:34)

Yeah. It's a good community to learn with.

Elle (13:37)

Yes.

Joe Scales (13:38)

I feel like.

Elle (13:38)

Yes. And there's some competition. Leaderboard. Just saying. Ben Minch and I are only separated by 0.13 or 1,2. There's a side bet going that you don't even know about. Oh, yeah, there is a side bet going because we are actually going to be able to see him in person in June in Milwaukee. And whoever is top of the leaderboard has to buy first round of drinks.

Joe Scales (14:00)

Okay.

Elle (14:00)

It's been said. It's on the podcast. It's now on the Internet. So it's happening and cool.

Joe Scales (14:06)

I. You would be proud or I think maybe proud, disappointed. I'm not even sure, but I haven't even looked at the leaderboard.

Elle (14:15)

What is wrong with you?

Joe Scales (14:15)

No, not even one time have I looked at the leaderboard.

Elle (14:18)

I'm shocked.

Joe Scales (14:18)

I know.

Elle (14:20)

What do you mean you haven't looked at the leaderboard?

Joe Scales (14:22)

They were talking about it last night and I was like, oh, yeah.

Elle (14:27)

Is it just too early in the season?

Joe Scales (14:28)

I think so. It's just so not likely.

Elle (14:31)

When have you not checked the leaderboard?

Joe Scales (14:34)

Just, I don't know.

Elle (14:35)

Well, FYI, Ben mentioned are very neck and neck.

Joe Scales (14:38)

Am I above you guys?

Elle (14:39)

I didn't look for you. I look for me.

Joe Scales (14:43)

Well, you made another final table.

Elle (14:44)

You're usually ahead of me.

Joe Scales (14:45)

Anyway, you made another final table last night, so congratulations on that.

Elle (14:49)

Well, thank you very much. And just FYI, if this is something that you would like to participate in, we do have the karma. Good seat wheel. We spun the wheel last week. No one wrote us back. So be on the lookout. If you've entered your name in the free Patreon section of our page, we're spinning it again. Then we're spinning it again this weekend. We're going to get in contact. Is it three more people to let you join games this month for free to see if this is something you want to participate in also, we're going to do a better job. I think the holidays just knocked us on our feet a little bit. As far as notifications, we're going to do a better job of sending out emails, putting things on Discord and out on Patreon on the days that we're playing. If you want to join, it is going to be not next week, but the week after that. We're playing. We left Valentine's week alone because people celebrate before, after, during the week, whatever. So the third Thursday of the month,

Joe Scales (15:44)

we're playing deuce to seven triple draw.

Elle (15:47)

Seven triple draw. We're getting ready for.

Joe Scales (15:49)

Get you ready for Arizona.

Elle (15:50)

Yeah.

Joe Scales (15:50)

Yep. Yeah, that was. But to your point, that was one of the discussions that came up last night in the Discord is we need to do A better job of announcing. Announcing when these are a week ahead of time.

Elle (16:03)

Yeah.

Joe Scales (16:03)

A few days ahead of time, the day of.

Elle (16:06)

So, yeah. So thanks for pointing that out, guys. We really appreciate it. Octopi Poker has had a promotion the last couple of days. They've also got some really cool videos out, and I think you mentioned that you wanted to talk about this.

Joe Scales (16:18)

I watched the GTO Duel is what they call it.

Elle (16:22)

I haven't watched it yet. You're the only one who's seen it

Joe Scales (16:25)

in this, basically, you take the. There's these two amateur players.

Elle (16:29)

Okay.

Joe Scales (16:30)

And they sit down with Steven Chidwick. And they go through situations, though. So they'll create a situation.

Elle (16:38)

Okay.

Joe Scales (16:38)

They're not playing hands at the table or anything like that. They are just. These situations happen. Here's the cards. What do you do? And then they compare that to gto.

Elle (16:49)

Oh, I need this.

Joe Scales (16:51)

And then they see who makes mistakes. The person that makes the least amount of mistakes wins.

Elle (16:58)

Wins what?

Joe Scales (16:59)

There's no prize bragging rights. Oh, but. But it's still really cool. It's cool from their standpoint, I'm sure that they learn a lot because they're discussing. Yeah, but just by watching it, you learn so much because you hear the amateurs go through their thought process, but you hear Steven Chidwick go through his thought process with it as well. And it. If I'll put a link to this video in the show description. Yeah. There's two of them out there. I'll just put one out there.

Elle (17:29)

Can we watch that? Can you cast it on the TV later?

Joe Scales (17:31)

Yeah, yeah.

Elle (17:33)

I also think we need snacks every week. Okay. All right. I would really be interested in watching that. And I know that they have so many simulations and things that you can do to play against hands that have already been played. To see and to learn, I really need to do it.

Joe Scales (17:50)

Yeah. It really is a good tool. And I felt like I walked away feeling like, oh, that's an interesting thought. That's an interesting thought. And I never thought about it that way. There were numerous points in there where I was like, huh?

Elle (18:04)

Well, and also, I think it's a perfect opportunity just to point out the fact that if you're interested in joining anything in Octopi Poker, we do have a code.

Joe Scales (18:11)

Yeah.

Elle (18:12)

It's front and center on our website. So if you just go to annie@magazine.com, click on the link there. There's also information that tells you before you click on the link, Right?

Joe Scales (18:22)

Yeah. And it's in our. Our show description as well. Our octopi.

Elle (18:25)

So if that's something you're interested, please utilize that code to get a discount. Something we would like to share with you.

Joe Scales (18:32)

Yeah. Now comes the fun part. Super bowl prop bets. We've done this every year.

Elle (18:38)

We have, we have, and it's been interesting because I never knew that these existed.

Joe Scales (18:44)

So our super bowl prop bets, we will start with the. The one we do every time.

Elle (18:52)

Well, let's. First of all, if no one knows who's playing the.

Joe Scales (18:55)

The Seahawks and the team not to be named, the Patriots and the. The Seahawks.

Elle (19:03)

So prop bets.

Joe Scales (19:04)

Prop bets. Are these bets on things outside of. I mean, there are some that are within poker, like, I mean, within poker. Within football.

Elle (19:13)

Right.

Joe Scales (19:14)

Where it's like, who's going to score the first touchdown, who's going to get more yardage, who's going to be the mvp? You know, those kinds of things. We're going to focus on the fun ones. We're going to the things that. I decided any of these.

Elle (19:28)

So you're surprising me.

Joe Scales (19:30)

We've done the. The Gatorade color. We've done that every year.

Elle (19:33)

Yeah.

Joe Scales (19:34)

So we'll do this again. Super bowl winners, Gatorade color. So whatever they pour onto the coach, you've got orange, yellow, green, lime, blue, purple, red or pink.

Elle (19:49)

This is predicting the winner.

Joe Scales (19:52)

Kinda.

Elle (19:53)

I mean, I'm gonna go yellow, yellow, green, lime.

Joe Scales (19:57)

You know what? Going old school with the orange, are you really?

Elle (20:01)

Yeah, that was my dad's favorite. Is my dad's favorite.

Joe Scales (20:04)

Is it. Oh, now you.

Elle (20:06)

There was no red Gatorade in our house.

Joe Scales (20:08)

Oh, red Gatorade's the way to go.

Elle (20:10)

But only orange.

Joe Scales (20:12)

This one's a fun one too. National anthem over under is actually set at 119.5. So just under two minutes over. Yeah, I go over as well.

Elle (20:25)

For sure.

Joe Scales (20:26)

Do you know who's doing it?

Elle (20:27)

Nope.

Joe Scales (20:28)

Charlie Puth is singing.

Elle (20:29)

Oh my gosh, I totally forgot that.

Joe Scales (20:32)

Yeah. So do you think. Does that change your vote over Under?

Elle (20:36)

It. It does.

Joe Scales (20:37)

You're going under now.

Elle (20:39)

Yeah. Charlie. Charlie doesn't waste time. He. I don't think. I think he's gonna do under, but it's gonna be a cool variation.

Joe Scales (20:46)

Okay.

Elle (20:47)

He's really reinventing himself right now. Like, he just put out a record for the first time in three years, I think.

Joe Scales (20:52)

Okay. Yeah, I didn't know that either. See the. And we'll get into the music part of it in a minute, but I. I don't know most of the music stuff. So you're gonna go Under. I'm gonna go over. Okay. Heads or tails? For the heads. Tails. Never fails. We're going tails.

Patrick (21:10)

Heads.

Elle (21:11)

Heads.

Joe Scales (21:15)

I put in the one that they asked because I think it's funny.

Elle (21:19)

Okay.

Joe Scales (21:19)

But I don't think there's any way to know because they don't show them. It says, will there be a streaker? Yes or no. But. But they have made this agreement on TV that they won't show them.

Elle (21:31)

Yeah, but you'll hear somebody or they'll go to commercial or something.

Joe Scales (21:34)

Yeah. So we won't really be able to. You would. We would have to go online and somehow confirm that there was a streaker.

Elle (21:42)

Oh. But no, I don't think so.

Joe Scales (21:45)

You don't think. I don't think so either.

Elle (21:46)

No. I think there could be somebody that, like, protests halftime show because there's so much controversy over Bad Bunny being the headliner and now Green Day joining. And this is nothing new, and I'm not going to talk it to death, but I could see somebody, like, protesting that.

Joe Scales (22:02)

Yeah.

Elle (22:02)

Just because there's a lot of. A lot of heated debate around that whole situation.

Joe Scales (22:08)

I think that could count as a streaker, though.

Elle (22:10)

But no streakers. Nakedness. A streaker is a.

Joe Scales (22:14)

By definition. No, I think there's. There's two types of streaking. There's naked streaking and there's.

Elle (22:20)

I have never heard of non naked streaking. Somebody prove me wrong.

Joe Scales (22:26)

Yeah, I. I don't know the answer to that, but I feel like.

Elle (22:29)

Have you ever been streaking?

Joe Scales (22:30)

I have never done such a thing. Have you?

Elle (22:33)

So fun.

Joe Scales (22:36)

Why am I not surprised that.

Elle (22:41)

But I would never do it in a stadium on the national stage, like an international stage, where, you know our personalities right there.

Joe Scales (22:49)

Have you ever been? No. Yeah.

Elle (22:55)

Well, anyhow, I do the protest. Maybe. What's the next one? I'm moving on.

Joe Scales (23:00)

Aren't you? So, halftime, you mentioned Bad Bunny. Will he have a special guest?

Elle (23:07)

I do. I do think so.

Joe Scales (23:09)

Okay. I think so, too. Which leads us to the next one.

Elle (23:13)

There's tons of people that would love to be in. In that spotlight with him or join him on that stage. And I think he is a generous person and that he's willing to share that spotlight to bring people together. So I definitely think that there will be a special guest.

Joe Scales (23:32)

Okay, then the next question is Cardi B.

Elle (23:35)

Did you answer it?

Joe Scales (23:36)

I said yes.

Elle (23:37)

Okay.

Joe Scales (23:38)

If I didn't say it out loud, I said it in my brain. So now I said it out loud. Will it be Cardi B, the special guest?

Elle (23:47)

No.

Joe Scales (23:48)

I think it will.

Elle (23:49)

I don't think so.

Joe Scales (23:51)

I'm going Cardi B. Yes. Because of Diggs.

Elle (23:55)

Yep.

Joe Scales (23:57)

That is who he's with.

Elle (23:58)

Right. Taylor Swift didn't perform just because she was there last year.

Joe Scales (24:01)

Yeah.

Elle (24:02)

No, not happening.

Joe Scales (24:04)

Okay. And a theme for this year has been missed kicks.

Elle (24:09)

Oh, my. So many, so many, so many that I'm just been, like, unsure. Now when they go to kids, I'm

Joe Scales (24:17)

like, okay, will there be any missed kicks in the Super Bowl?

Elle (24:21)

Yeah, we're on a roll.

Joe Scales (24:22)

I'm going to say no. You made it. They made it to the super bowl with reliable kickers. I'm going to say no. No missed kicks.

Elle (24:29)

Okay.

Joe Scales (24:30)

Bay Area landmark.

Elle (24:32)

Is it. What is your choices?

Joe Scales (24:34)

Yeah. Which. Which Bay Area landmark will be shown first?

Elle (24:38)

Okay.

Joe Scales (24:39)

The Golden Gate Bridge or Alcatraz?

Elle (24:43)

Those are the only two options.

Joe Scales (24:44)

That's your only two options. One of. They're both going to be shown. Which one's going to be the Golden

Elle (24:48)

Gate Bridge will be correct.

Joe Scales (24:51)

I agree with you. Yeah.

Elle (24:53)

That's another question I have for you. Have you ever been to Alcatraz?

Joe Scales (24:56)

No. No. I. It's well documented on here. I don't. I really have not traveled a lot.

Elle (25:02)

I thought you had been to California, though.

Joe Scales (25:05)

Northern California.

Elle (25:06)

Okay, so there's my disconnect. So when I was a high school senior, one of the big trips or big things to do was to go to beach week after you graduate.

Joe Scales (25:20)

Okay.

Elle (25:21)

The whole thing, like, people had to have their parents make the hotel reservations. Some. Somebody had to check you in, like, because you're under. I don't know that you could get a hotel on the east coast if you were under 25. It's like when you try to rent a car or something. But anyways, so it was a whole thing. My dad was not keen on the idea of me going to the beach for a week because of all the stories, of course, come home with beach week.

Joe Scales (25:50)

Right.

Elle (25:51)

And so he, Some wise person said to him, if you are going to take something away, ensure that it is replaced with something better. But he came to me because I had mentioned beach week. And I think he did a lot of. I know he did a lot of thinking and he said, I. I have a proposal. I don't want you to go to beach week. If you don't go to beach week, I will take you to California for two weeks immediate on the spot. Said, sold. He was like, okay, I'll book it. And so that was. That is the reason that I ended up in California.

Joe Scales (26:28)

Okay.

Elle (26:29)

And One of the tours. Cause we did San Fran and all that. But one of the tours that we did do was Alcatraz, and it is eye opening. And we did. We did the headset, which is such a nerdy thing to do, but it was really cool because the prisoners in Alcatraz could hear San Francisco across the water.

Joe Scales (26:50)

Oh.

Elle (26:51)

And so that's one little tidbit that they may talk about, but if they don't, there's my. There's the trivia.

Patrick (26:58)

The more.

Joe Scales (26:59)

You know.

Elle (26:59)

Yeah. Those commercials are back.

Joe Scales (27:02)

I know. So, yeah, we're so all over the place.

Elle (27:07)

But there's. There's your tidbit about Alcatraz, and there's your parenting advice for the week. If you are going to take something away, ensure that you replace it with something better.

Joe Scales (27:15)

It depends on the reason that you're taking away.

Elle (27:17)

I mean, yes, but.

Joe Scales (27:19)

Yes. You don't punish. You don't punish them. And then you say, but I'll give you this.

Elle (27:23)

Right.

Joe Scales (27:23)

Yeah. But all in all, we'll have to see how those prop bets work out.

Elle (27:29)

Stand. Stand up. I think we should do this with everybody. We're watching with.

Joe Scales (27:33)

Oh, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Elle (27:37)

All right, I'm closing the lid on the snacks, and I'm ready.

Joe Scales (27:41)

You're ready?

Elle (27:42)

I'm ready for the weekend.

Joe Scales (27:43)

All right. And bring some warm weather this way after the Super Bowl's done.

Elle (27:47)

So it's gonna be 60 degrees next Wednesday.

Joe Scales (27:49)

Is it really supposed to be? I'm so excited.

Elle (27:52)

So supposed to be. All right.

Joe Scales (27:53)

Because baseball's getting ready to start. But until then, did you really have

Elle (27:58)

to say that fast and get it in?

Joe Scales (27:59)

I did. I had to get it in.

Elle (28:00)

Okay. Well, as always, Joe, it's a pleasure being around the table with you.

Joe Scales (28:05)

Likewise.

Podcast Narrator (28:08)

Elliot's wisdom cuts like a blade. Big blinds, big sts. Raise it up. Let's make no mistake.

Joe Scales (28:23)

Elliot Sher joins us each week to say how he would run situations that come up in your games.

Podcast Narrator (28:27)

And.

Joe Scales (28:28)

And he's with us again this week. Elliot, how's it going?

Elliot Sher (28:31)

Going pretty well, Joe. How you doing? How's the winter weather treating you?

Joe Scales (28:36)

Well, you know, the problem is when you dig out your driveway and then they send these trucks down the road and they throw all of the snow back into your driveway.

Elliot Sher (28:52)

Wow. Big help.

Joe Scales (28:55)

Yeah. Which, I mean, great. The road's clear and whatnot. But it's happened now two times, and that's only because I didn't get out there and shovel as early as some of the other people Others have had this happen three times where they shovel and then have to reshovel all. But that has been thrown into their driveway.

Elliot Sher (29:19)

Right.

Joe Scales (29:20)

But we didn't lose power, so we were able to stay warm. So that's good. All good?

Elliot Sher (29:25)

Absolutely.

Joe Scales (29:27)

Hey, Zach Brennan sent in a call the floor this week, and it's pretty interesting to me, so let's jump into that. He says, we're playing a cash game. One player gets up out of his seat and walks over to another table to talk to someone. While he's away, the dealer completes the deal. Action starts. The first player to act folds. The second player is thinking. And while that player is thinking, the dealer asks me, meaning Zach. And apparently Zach is seated next to the empty chair because he's out the absent players talking, right? So the dealer asks him to slide those cards to him. And Zach says, I. I hesitate, but I do it. The player talking at the other table keeps glancing over, trying to time when the action will be on him when the action reaches me. So Zach, the player right before him, he comes back and asks where his cards are. The dealer tells him his hand is dead because he was not in his seat when the cards were fully dealt. This player argues that that's more of a tournament rule, but this is a cash game, so that rule shouldn't apply. The floor is called. When the floor arrives, both sides explain what happened. The floor rules that the dealer acted within their discretion and that the hand is dead. Explaining that dealers are allowed to kill a hand to keep the game moving. So Zach says, my question is this. I didn't really want to slide the cards in because I thought if he returned before action reached him, everything would be fine. I can see this ruling going either way, but I don't think the dealer should be able to decide this arbitrarily. So what is the correct ruling here and how should I handle this spot in the future?

Elliot Sher (31:39)

Well, before we answer the questions, I. I certainly dispute that the dealer was acting arbitrarily. Apparently the dealer was acting with a well defined boundary and the player who was up from the table did not appreciate it. That doesn't sound arbitrary. He didn't decide, well, this player gets to be up from the table and get a hand, and this player does not. He very, very definitively stated that if you're not ready to play when the cards are out, then you're done. So that's not arbitrary. It seems drastic. It may be draconian, it may not be the house policy, but it's certainly not arbitrary. Now let's actually try to unpack this issue, which is pretty interesting because

Elle (32:24)

at.

Elliot Sher (32:25)

At its absolute best, the offending player is merely being a nuisance to the rest of the players at the table, and it can go downhill pretty quickly from there. The villain is not incorrect when they state that this is a cash game and not a tournament. And maybe the rule doesn't apply. Certainly, depending upon the. The casino or card room, it may not apply. But at some point, you can't disrupt or slow the game down on a continual basis. You got to be able to protect your hand, which we're not doing, and you've got to maintain the pace of the game so the other players can have a good time and keep the game going, which it's hard to do when you're not at your seat and when you're constantly trying to shuffle back to the table to play your hand when it's your turn. Maybe the floor should have been called over the first time this happened so that they can explain to the player what's expected of them, because it does seem like the player thinks something was. Was sprung on them that maybe was unfair. It doesn't sound entirely unfair. Shoot. If you're going to play the game, sit your. Sit your ass in the seat. See how that works?

Joe Scales (33:44)

Yeah, well, I mean, I talk about all the time how it's important from a standpoint of trying to do well in poker to be there to gather the information. If you're not going to do that, that's on you. But at the same time, it doesn't sound like this is, like you said, an arbitrary rule. I guess my question, I would hope that all of the dealers are trained in the same way to do this so that it's not this dealer doing it this way and another dealer doing it another way, because then it does become confusing.

Elliot Sher (34:25)

Inconsistency will be perceived as arbitrary. So, yeah, you certainly don't want that. I agree. And that's certainly. That's absolutely. One of the largest challenges we operators face is making sure that dealers, floors, supervisors, managers are all doing things consistently and identically. And yeah, that's a challenge. Everybody's human, everybody's different. Getting them on the same page is what gets football coaches fired or bringing teams to the Super Bowl.

Joe Scales (35:02)

Right.

Elliot Sher (35:03)

So on a smaller scale, yeah, it's how poker rooms become successful or not.

Joe Scales (35:12)

But again, yeah, I think maybe the floor could have refrained from saying that it was at the dealer's discretion. Maybe just say, you know, this is the way the rule is, or Isn't right.

Elliot Sher (35:27)

Yes. Yeah, could have, could have explained it in a much more player forward fashion. Meaning that yes, you're responsible for maintaining the pace of the game for the other players. You are responsible for being at your seat when the cards are out. And again, there's other points in play. I mean, if you're continually up from the table while the cards are being dealt and then walking to your seat while players are acting again, you may get a chance to see other players cards. Why is that allowed? We don't. If you're in the hand, we don't allow you to stand up in almost every place I've been. But why is it okay for the player who hasn't seen his cards yet to be standing up? A pretty fine point, certainly to the players who actually, you know, helping maintain the pace of the game for the rest of the table. So again, right. Why is this player special and more special than anybody else? Why, why is he being catered to over and above anybody else? The floor could have explained it in that mash in that matter and would have changed the tone of the conversation and probably the outcome as well. I appreciate the fact that the guy wanted to speak to his friend. It's okay to be dealt out a couple hands to socialize. That's allowed. There's nothing against the rules. You're not obligated to play every hand because you paid your blinds and now you have to get your exact money's worth. And I empathize with those people too. If you want your money's worth, keep your ass in the chair.

Joe Scales (36:56)

Yeah, he does. Zach doesn't say at what point he got up and left the table to go speak to his friend.

Elliot Sher (37:05)

Probably after he folded a hand or

Joe Scales (37:09)

a previous hand maybe.

Elliot Sher (37:10)

Yeah, after a showdown. And okay, oh, hey, there's, there's Billy Mac or Buddy. I mean, yeah, let's go talk to him. Yeah, and I don't know if that's entirely relevant, but he certainly decided to make the dealer work harder.

Joe Scales (37:27)

Yeah, I guess my thought on that is, if he was away from the table when the deal started, should the dealer have maybe not even dealt him in to begin with?

Elliot Sher (37:38)

And that's an excellent point. Back in the prehistoric days when I was dealing poker where I had to go to work uphill in the snow in both directions, we were instructed very simply, in tournaments you deal to chips because everybody must be dealt in. So if there's chips on the table, you deal to them. In cash games, you deal to bodies. If there's no body in the seat, they don't get cards, they have chosen to be away. So that principle generally still holds some rooms as a courtesy. If a player's going to throw something away or has to speak with the floor or the, or the board real quickly, deal me in, I'll be right back. And usually they make it a point to be right back. We'll deal them in and if they're not back, they lose their hand. So getting dealt in when you're not at the table is absolutely a courtesy, it is not an expectation. And anybody who feels that way needs to rethink this. Now this doesn't apply to all games. There are very, very high stake games and time raked games as opposed to hand raked. So when they're paying for the seat for the half hour and a lot of places will deal them in continually because they're paying for the seat they paid the rake for the entire time the dealer is there. This doesn't sound like that was this right?

Podcast Narrator (39:12)

And

Elliot Sher (39:15)

again, even then, that's not always a hundred percent. But being away from the table and expecting to be fully accommodated every single time is just not reasonable. Once as a courtesy, and even then you still have to be pretty timely about it. If it's so important to the player to squeeze every single second of socialization time away from the table before they have to touch and act on their cards, then playing the game is obviously not the priority for this player. And putting the cards in the muck is probably better for everybody.

Joe Scales (39:51)

One of the great things about cash games is that you can walk away at any point and leave your chips there. You're not going to miss anything that way.

Elliot Sher (39:59)

Yeah. When the blinds come through, instead of extracting the blinds from your stack, we will very graciously put a missed blind button in front of you and leave your chips alone.

Joe Scales (40:08)

Right, right. So, you know, in that case, I think that the dealer was probably being pretty generous, allowing one player to have already acted and then another player was thinking about their action before he even asked to have the cards. So you know, if the rule is typically for them to, to not let them play their hand, if their hand is dead at that point already, then, then you know, the dealer gave him some leeway. Allowing a couple of people to already act. Yeah, it sounds like this was, was done pretty fairly. Like I said, the only, the only caveat that I would put in there is making sure that that is consistent throughout the room from, with every dealer. But.

Elliot Sher (40:59)

Well, and let's really make this absurd, let's Bring this to the far edge of reality. What if you've got a nine handed game and all nine players see their friends at other tables and they have to go talk to them. Oh, deal me in. I'll be right back. And now the dealer's dealing to nine empty spots and one by one they come back to the table to play their hand as it's their turn. This game would slow to a crawl. It would be a calamity. It would not be a good experience. It would be amazingly unfair to everybody. Or the one player who decided to actually not get up from the table, he's the one completely being disregarded and taken for granted. Well, as you add players to their seats and remove players from being up, it still doesn't become any less fair for the players who were seated. Any more fair. I mean, pardon me. So if you're not going to do it for all nine players, why would you do it for anyone?

Joe Scales (42:06)

Yeah.

Elliot Sher (42:06)

Rooms claim to be player friendly or strive to be player friendly. Player hyphen friendly, meaning that they look out for the player's interests. They look to make sure that the player is being treated well and fairly. That does not mean treating one player really well at the expense of anyone else. It means train.

Joe Scales (42:25)

Right.

Elliot Sher (42:25)

It means treating the group of players well and fairly so that everybody gets a fair shake, a fair gambler and consistent ruling. So letting one player take everybody else for granted is not player friendly. It's not fair. It shouldn't be done. If you want to play poker, get your butt in the seat. If you, if you want to socialize, socialize. A casino's full of people and a poker room is going to be full of people. Several whom you know, it's okay to socialize. Go to the casino, have a good time, but don't disrupt the game so that you can do everything while everybody else does not.

Joe Scales (43:02)

That's the perfect spot to end right there. Just. Zach, I think it couldn't be any more clearer than that, but I appreciate you sending that. That's.

Elliot Sher (43:13)

This is a good one.

Joe Scales (43:14)

I feel like I say this every week, but. Another good topic. Another good topic to, to bring up and appreciate you.

Elliot Sher (43:21)

Now I don't have to tell people to get off my lawn because I was able to express myself through this.

Joe Scales (43:31)

Well, if anybody has a call to floor that they would like to know how Elliot would rule, send it to podcasty magazine.com and Elliot, I'm glad we saved you from having to yell at kids to get off your lawn.

Elliot Sher (43:44)

So thank you. I appreciate that very much.

Joe Scales (43:49)

And we'll see what we can do about that for next week as well. Okay.

Podcast Narrator (43:55)

Patrick's a fish, but he's learning fast. He's all in. This hand might be his last.

Joe Scales (44:03)

Welcome to Hand of the Week, where Patrick, our resident fish, and I dive into listener submitted hands each week. We tackle everything from questionable bluffs to hero calls and the hands that make you scratch your head. Whether you're looking for strategy tips or you just want to see if you would have played it any better, we've got you covered, Patrick. It's cold, man.

Patrick (44:23)

Hell yeah, it's cold. I mean, the whole country's been cold for two weeks. I mean, we had round of snow and ice, then we had another round of snow, bomb, cyclone, all that good stuff last time. I mean, it just, and it's not falling out anytime soon. I, you know, I hope everyone survived in Florida because there were frozen iguanas falling from trees last week. So

Joe Scales (44:45)

I, I, I even put this shirt on because this is from one of the cruises. So I'm like, I'm just dreaming of warm weather and paradise and whatever. I'm, I'm tired of the cold. I need warmth, you know, where it's not cold?

Patrick (45:11)

Santa Clara, California, where the Super Bowl's getting ready to be played with.

Joe Scales (45:14)

Where?

Patrick (45:14)

New England Patriots.

Joe Scales (45:16)

Yeah, I knew you were gonna say it, too. I, I knew where you were going. But look, but look.

Patrick (45:23)

One, you cannot think that the Patriot on the other side, Devil's advocate, it's the Seahawks defense is very, very good. Very good. However, so is our defense and we haven't been talking about it. And listen, I, you get 11 guys on the field. Would you agree with me on that? You get 11 side, 11 guys on each side of the field. That's accurate. We should take. If Mike Rabel is listening. And I know it's only, you know, a couple days before game time, but we should take two defenders out of the 11 and put him on that crazy wide receiver, J and J whatever his name is, and then let the other nine guys cover everybody else. That's what we should do. And then Sam Darnold's not going to have anyone to throw to it.

Joe Scales (46:09)

I'm sure that Vrabel is listening to our poker podcast to learn about his strategy for the Super Bowl.

Patrick (46:16)

Listen, he needs escape from all the nonsense media, so, you know, he plays a little poker on the side. So if he's listening. Well, I, you know, I don't know. It's every, Everybody and everything on paper says that we're going to get shellacked. And you know what? I'm the first one to stand up here, hat in hand, next week, and if we did, then I'll own it. But I just don't know.

Joe Scales (46:41)

Yeah, well, I mean, that's why we play the game, right?

Patrick (46:44)

You gotta play the game. That's right.

Joe Scales (46:46)

I.

Patrick (46:47)

And there's 30 other teams not playing a game this week.

Joe Scales (46:51)

That is true. Including. Anyway, I might throw up if I watch the Patriots raise another freaking trophy.

Patrick (47:02)

You, along with about 40 million other people that are just tired of it. I will say it has been, I think it's like 620 days since we've had a championship in Boston. So it's been a little bit of a drought.

Joe Scales (47:16)

Poor things.

Patrick (47:18)

I mean, you know, let's listen. The Celtics in 24. Yeah. I mean, there are newborns that have, you know, that are almost two years old that have not had a championship yet in Boston in title town.

Joe Scales (47:30)

So that's.

Patrick (47:30)

We might as well get

Joe Scales (47:34)

for you, really.

Patrick (47:38)

I could continue on and on, but I don't mind stopping and playing poker if you want to.

Joe Scales (47:44)

Yeah, let's. Let's see what our hand of the week is this week. Uh, it's sent in by Dimitri Lambros, and. Oh, cool. He's playing in a weekly bar poker free roll tournament. They have a top cash prize of a hundred dollars, and you get a thousand chips for every $1 you spend. So stacks are very deep at the beginning of the game. Well, that's cool.

Elliot Sher (48:13)

All the.

Joe Scales (48:13)

All the bar leagues that I've ever seen have. Have made it very clear that you cannot tie sales at the bar into the poker game at all. So. So that's. That's an interesting little tidbit there. I. I would love to pick Dimitri's brain on that at some point and see how they do that. But anyway, this hand happened in the first hour of play, and he says he's the effective stack with 54,000 in chips. So Dimitri spent $54? Is that what I'm understanding?

Patrick (49:00)

That's a lot of nachos and beer, Demetri.

Joe Scales (49:02)

Well done.

Podcast Narrator (49:03)

Stack.

Joe Scales (49:03)

I was gonna say. Demetri, are you drunk in this hand?

Patrick (49:06)

I was gonna say round for the house and let me get around for the house. And then, by the way, bring my chips over while you're at it.

Joe Scales (49:12)

Yeah. Let's see. Blinds are 100, 200, and we're nine handed. Under the gun. A loose, aggressive player raises to 600 under the gun plus one calls under the gun plus two calls. Hijack and LoJack both call. And we're in the cutoff with the jack of spades, four of diamonds. I. This.

Patrick (49:49)

Let me see if I can count this. Right under the gun. Under the gun plus one. Under the gun plus two. Hijack, low jack. So it sounds like we're six handed at a minimum.

Joe Scales (50:01)

Under the gun. Under the gun plus one. Under the gun plus two. Hijack and LoJack's five. If we call it, we got five, right?

Patrick (50:08)

Maybe six. Okay. And Jack is spades, four of diamonds.

Joe Scales (50:14)

Yeah, I fold. Yeah, I, I mean, I feel like this is a pretty clear fold and for a lot of reasons, but the fact that this week, yeah, it's hand

Patrick (50:30)

of the week, but you know what we can do is we can get back to talking about the Patriots because this hand's over. Okay. In the spirit of hand of the week, I want to play.

Joe Scales (50:43)

Well, let's talk about all the reasons that you should fold.

Patrick (50:48)

Well, Jack 4 on suit is a good start.

Joe Scales (50:51)

That's, that is a good start. He mentioned that under the Gun is a loose, aggressive player, but he's still under the gun. So that's a, that's second on the list. So it's probably not absolute trash. We have four callers already, which makes the pot bloated. I mean, I understand that we are super deep with a bajillion big blinds at this point, but that actually means that we don't have to gamble right now. So there's another reason. It also jack4offsuit does one thing really well. It makes top pair with a weak kicker which only going to get you in trouble. If we hit a jack, then someone can have a better one or an overpair. I just, I know it feels cheap and there's a ton out there to win. It's a fun tournament. But I think you have to ask yourself like at how do I win a big pot with this hand? And I think then you struggle to find an answer, Right?

Patrick (52:13)

Yeah, absolutely. I was just kind of sitting back, you know, lawn chair, kickback, feet up, waiting for, you know, the long list of things. Demetri, we're not getting on you by any means. This is just, you know, just a outside looking in sometimes it's fun tournament, you're feeling froggy. I, I, I get it. Hell, I do it. I love seeing flops. If you're gonna see this, if you really are gonna play this and you want to see a flop, I think you have to. Unless you get two jacks or two fours. Then you guarantee yourself the fold. It's the only way that you make this call. And you sure as hell don't go above and beyond on this one. I mean, don't. We don't need another bloated I. You're gonna get a lot of callers, so. No.

Joe Scales (52:55)

Yeah. Dimitri says, I contemplate a raise, considering all the dead money out there. But stacks are so deep that any reasonable 3 bet will be called, which I agree. So I'm glad you decided not to do that. I decided to play loose and flat. The bet button and small blind fold. But the big blind completes. So there is 3,700 in the pot. The flop is the king of diamonds, nine of diamonds, seven of diamonds. Big blind checks. Under the gun bets 3,000 under the gun, plus one folds. Under the gun plus two calls. The lowjack folds, the hijack calls, and it's back to us.

Patrick (54:05)

Joe, you know that emoji where the brain is exploding?

Joe Scales (54:10)

Yeah.

Patrick (54:12)

Fold.

Joe Scales (54:14)

Yeah. I mean, what do we have?

Patrick (54:15)

And let me tell you. Let me tell you why. You. You have a baby, baby diamond. Every single diamond out there, except for two and three, takes you down. And here's the thing. You're not playing heads up to where the percentages may even be a little bit better. You got about. I even lost track when my head was exploding. I think we've got, what, three or four?

Joe Scales (54:36)

There's a total of five other players. Seven of us.

Patrick (54:40)

There's seven of us that saw the flop. You said under the gun bet 3,000. And then how many callers? Everybody. I want to play this. I do want to go to this bar and play this, because this would be like the wild, wild west.

Podcast Narrator (54:53)

Yeah.

Joe Scales (54:57)

We don't have a pair. We don't have straight draws. Well, I mean, there's a back door maybe, but I'm not going there yet. I think we have six players in this pot. A lot of better diamonds out there against us. So someone may even already have the flush. So folk.

Patrick (55:22)

Boom.

Joe Scales (55:24)

Yeah. Do you. Do you. Do you. Do you ever feel good about making the flush with a 4? I don't like it. We.

Patrick (55:33)

If I'm sitting on, like, four or five right now, I'm feeling a little bit better. And I'm gonna press real hard and real big to make someone pay if they've. You know, if they're gonna chase it down. But I haven't even made my flush, and I've only got a four. No. I never feel good about it. Even heads up.

Joe Scales (55:51)

Yeah. I mean, if. If our diamond was the jack. Maybe it's different, but even then it's kind of scary, right?

Patrick (55:59)

Definitely. It's scary, but it's definitely different. I'm feeling a little bit more froggy

Elliot Sher (56:03)

than a four, so just fold.

Joe Scales (56:06)

Demitri says under the Gun's C bet tells me that he was planning to bet any flop, and I'm not sure if he has a diamond in his hand. The two other callers could have a diamond, but if they hit the flush here, they're going to raise the initial bet, especially if they don't have a high flush. I put them both on a draw of either diamonds or backdoor straights. I have jack high right now and need a queen and 10 to complete a backdoor straight. And the ace of diamonds would give me the chance to represent the nut flush, considering I only need to call 3K to win. Almost 16K and I get to keep my position. And we can still add on to our stack by buying food or drinks from the bar. I call the bet.

Patrick (57:00)

We gotta find Dimitri. We gotta go hang out with Dimitri because he sounds so much fun.

Joe Scales (57:06)

Dimitri is a very optimistic person.

Patrick (57:08)

I gotta tell you. When there's a glass half full, Demetri seen it.

Joe Scales (57:14)

Wow.

Patrick (57:15)

He said and this and this and this. He's not wrong in saying all that. But the percentages of all that, let alone you've got five guys playing before you, is just a recipe for disaster. The, in my humble opinion, the only win is that last part where he could just go spend more money at the bar and re up chips. Yeah, that's the best part of everything that he just said.

Joe Scales (57:43)

Right? I, I, I will say this. The, the one advantage that we have right now is position, but we still have jack4offsuit. So, yeah, he said we could represent the nut flush, but that's assuming nobody else has the ace. I guess the big blindfolded, because the pot is 15,700 and the turn is the three of clubs making the board king of diamonds, nine of diamonds, seven of diamonds, three of clubs. Under the gun checks. Under the gun plus two checks and the hijack check.

Patrick (58:34)

Check and save your money if we're still playing here, proactively. Fold. If you're about to say something nutty, I'm gonna lose my mind on you, Joe. If you're, you're right.

Joe Scales (58:54)

We have jack high.

Patrick (58:55)

We only have jack high and the third lowest flush. Draw out there. Draw, mind you. Let me just say that out loud one more time.

Elle (59:05)

Draw.

Joe Scales (59:08)

Right.

Patrick (59:09)

If you're about to tell me that you're going to go on the offensive? Because everyone just checked. That is a but. Okay.

Joe Scales (59:17)

Why did Dimitri get to this point? Why did Dimitri get to this point? We got to this exact point for this exact opportunity. Nobody is seems to be anyway thrilled with their hand. So Demetri's assumption, I mean, it seems to be true. We don't have much in the hand, but we do have position and we also have a story we can tell. The only question is if anyone will actually believe the story we're telling.

Patrick (59:47)

So I think you gotta go big, right?

Elliot Sher (59:52)

Yeah.

Joe Scales (59:52)

Bet sizing matters here.

Patrick (59:54)

Bed sizing absolutely matters. You can't go through the roof big, but you got to go big.

Joe Scales (60:00)

Yeah. Because we don't want to blow anybody. Well, we're not going to blow anybody off of monsters, so that's not our goal.

Patrick (60:07)

Right.

Joe Scales (60:07)

We're really targeting, like, medium and low diamond hands and medium to small pairs.

Patrick (60:15)

Right.

Joe Scales (60:16)

So if I'm going to bet here, I'm going to bet like 6,500.

Patrick (60:20)

If.

Joe Scales (60:20)

Okay, then if one person calls, I still have the position and the ability to reassess on the river. But if more than one person calls, then I can abort. And of course, if someone check, raises me, I snap hold.

Patrick (60:36)

Yeah, I had eight in my head. I was going closer to half.

Elliot Sher (60:40)

Okay, so you're a little bit.

Patrick (60:42)

Yeah, yeah, I think just, just with, you know, the type of game that they're at, the amount of players I, I. Yeah, but then let me ask you this, too. I mean, let's just say no one's really confident. And you catch one guy, you know, that wants to. One guy or girl that wants to sit, you know, play, you know, chase something. Is it really that bad to go closer to, like, 10?

Joe Scales (61:05)

I just saw his number.

Patrick (61:08)

Well, share it with us then.

Joe Scales (61:13)

Well, let me, let me, let me start back here. He says this is the perfect car. Every hand that called the flop has missed, including mine. It's times like these that you see exactly why position matters. I get to see how everyone acts with a brick turn. If I'm in position and people check to me, I'm meek at making people pay to see a river card. There's too much dead money in the pot to let people hit their flushes. It's time to find out exactly who is on a draw. After all, betting is a way to get information. I bet 11,000.

Patrick (61:57)

All right. Demetri and I are on the same page finally. Even though I would have folded three

Joe Scales (62:01)

times under the gun hims and haws then looks at his cards and says, I misread my cards on the flop as he tosses them into the muck under the gun plus two calls and hijack tanks for about 30 seconds before making the call. So now the pot is 48,700 and Dimitri says, I have 39,400 behind. Nearly a pot sized bet. Time for the last card, which is the five of spades. So the board is king of diamonds, nine of diamonds, seven of diamonds, three of clubs, five of spades. And it checks to us.

Patrick (62:46)

Well, don't reach for your wallet to go buy more drinks at the bar to get chips, but go ahead and shove them all in. It's the only way you're going to get any money out of this. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you check here, you lose. Someone has a medium pair of some sorts or they're holding on to something or they got nines or sevens. Some. If you check, you lose. You're guaranteed to lose.

Joe Scales (63:11)

But if we bet, I still think we get called. They call. I don't think anybody's calling the, the turn with those pairs to fold on the river.

Patrick (63:22)

Ace of diamonds, four of clubs calls.

Joe Scales (63:28)

Sure.

Patrick (63:28)

The nut flush draw.

Joe Scales (63:30)

I'm talking about those pairs. There's pairs that you were talking about. Oh, the, the pairs that you're talking about that you're saying you want to target, they're not fold. They didn't call the turn to fold on the river.

Patrick (63:43)

If they had a diamond, they did. Maybe, yeah, maybe not a, not a.

Joe Scales (63:52)

Two players. We have two players in this hand. If we're heads up, different story. But we, we, we've got two players in this hand, not one. And the, what are the chances both of them fold? I don't, I don't think both of, we're getting both of them to fold. The, the turn bet was our point to get them to fold and we got two callers. So it, it, it worked in that it got a couple of people to fold, but it did not work to get everybody out of the hand. So now we have two players and I just don't think we're getting both of them to fold. I, I think we saved the, what do you say, 39,000 that we have left and that's still a good, I mean, the blinds are 100, 200.

Patrick (64:46)

Yeah, it's a lot of blinds.

Joe Scales (64:47)

We're still good. We can still build this.

Patrick (64:53)

Listen, I'm not against it, but if we're going to go the offensive route, shove and see, you know, and see where the dust falls, there's a. I. I think you shoving guarantees one of them folds, and then maybe the other. Maybe not, though.

Joe Scales (65:08)

I guarantee. Yeah, I would say shoving gets one to fold, and we get called by another one. That's where I think this ends up.

Patrick (65:15)

I gotta tell you.

Joe Scales (65:16)

And if.

Patrick (65:16)

If I shove and I get called by a pair of nines after all that, that's a monster pod to lose to.

Joe Scales (65:29)

Yeah, it. It. At. I just feel like when you bet that on the turn, you're betting to get the information that you need on this river and on the river, it's either a bet for value or fold equity. And I don't know that we have enough fold equity here. I don't think we get both of them to fold. So I agree with you. We're certainly not beating what they have. If, you know, if we bet and get called, then. Then we're. We're definitely losing. And if we go check, check, check.

Patrick (66:09)

Then check, check, check, check.

Joe Scales (66:11)

Yes, we're losing, but I'm saving my 39k.

Elliot Sher (66:16)

Okay.

Joe Scales (66:16)

Dimitri says, I know they missed, and I represented the flush on the turn. We're not going to showdown for free. I bet 30k. Saving himself 9k behind. Under the gun plus 2. Snap folds. Hijack, thinks, looks at his cards, thinks some more, says, you gotta have the flush. He shows the king of spades and folds. I smile, flip over the four of diamonds, toss the cards into the muck while collecting the chips. Table talk after the hand was over. Confirmed the bluff worked. They thought my other card was the ace of diamonds. He says, love listening to the show.

Patrick (67:08)

We got to be Dimitri.

Joe Scales (67:09)

Yep.

Patrick (67:10)

I gotta meet him.

Joe Scales (67:10)

Dimitri didn't specifically ask a question here, so.

Patrick (67:14)

You know why? Because he's sitting on a throne of chips and he can't figure out what question to ask.

Joe Scales (67:24)

I think you want to start.

Patrick (67:25)

You want me to dangerous. Can I go for it?

Joe Scales (67:30)

Because I really think that this is a dangerous hand, and I think it's dangerous because it worked. I mean, I'll give credit where credit is due. Dimitri recognized the fear on a monotone board, and he used his position very well. The turn bet told a good story, and it applied the pressure we wanted. I just. I think it's important to realize that this worked because of the specific table dynamics there, which is fine, but it's not repeatable against better or less scared opponents. I'll say.

Patrick (68:13)

Yeah.

Joe Scales (68:15)

Typically, a player that made it to the river with top pair, they're not folding to the river. On the river, I Feel like the turn bet successfully extracted the information that he was looking for. Then the riverbed ignored it all. Yeah, I just. It's a high variance gamble for sure.

Patrick (68:38)

Absolutely.

Joe Scales (68:39)

So I think the guy wins occasionally.

Patrick (68:41)

Yeah.

Joe Scales (68:43)

Loses catastrophically.

Patrick (68:46)

That's a great way to put it. Yeah. I think you. You're gonna catch the guy. You know, the. That hijacked player that's sitting on kings is not folding. If he makes it. If he makes the call on the turn and then, you know, the dud of five of spades comes out, maybe it's eight out of ten. At least seven out of ten guys call again, reluctantly, begrudgingly, whatever, you know, think they're drawing dead, but they're making that call again. You're going to catch a couple that are going to fold. And then they did, and that's fine. And that's those scared players. And you know what? He didn't so much say it, but, you know, if this is sitting at a bar game, I mean, Dimitri sees these guys, he knows them. So I give him a little, you know, some. Some kudos on knowing who you're playing with. I mean, just flat out. So.

Joe Scales (69:34)

Yeah.

Patrick (69:35)

Wow.

Joe Scales (69:37)

I feel like. And to come back to what I was saying earlier about this being dangerous, because it worked. I feel like hands like this are what create leaks in somebody's game because you just kind of go into it with, well, it worked last time, so let's do it again, you know, and. And most of the time it's. It's not going to work.

Patrick (70:01)

You know what? You're absolutely right, though, on. On creating this, because I did, you know, just me specifically. I told you this months ago. You know, when you start playing those free games on, like, poker stars or whatever. And when I say it's free, I mean, you have to spend, you know, five bucks to get, you know, a million chips or whatever stupid it is. You play like it doesn't matter. And then for me, you know, specifically, I go to, you know, go play with some buddies that know how to play or the Patreon game. And the Patreon game, and you get up against in specific scenarios like this where you can't, you know, whether it's trying to bully somebody off, you're representing something that you absolutely don't have, and you. And you catch a good caller or just any other. Any other sound betting strategy that you run into, you're going to get waxed. So.

Joe Scales (70:53)

Right.

Patrick (70:53)

Just be cautious of that.

Joe Scales (70:56)

Yeah. Demetri. All the credit in the world because you thought this through and that that's an important piece that a lot of poker players don't do. So you're ahead of the game right there. But. But I do feel like this was a good bluff on the turn that became a bad bluff on the river and then got lucky. So just take that win with a grain of salt, be glad that it went, Made it through, and. And learn from it still, too. And, yeah, I think that's. That's what we do. Good, bad, or ugly, whether we win, lose, or draw, you know, learn from the hand. And. And so I hope you can learn from this. And if anyone else would like to learn from a hand, or at least like to know how Patrick and I would play it, send it in to podcastyupmagazine.com Patrick, good luck in the Super Bowl.

Patrick (71:57)

Thank you very much.

Joe Scales (71:58)

Say that word.

Patrick (71:59)

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that any Bills fans are gonna want to say that, but you're a good friend for saying it. I. Yeah. Here we go.

Joe Scales (72:26)

I told everyone in the Discord last night during the Patreon game that this was going to be my one outer. But there's a phrase in poker that gets thrown around a lot. Sometimes it's an excuse, sometimes it's actually a warning. But the phrase is, don't play scared. Sometimes busting early in a tournament is just gonna happen because the hand really kind of plays itself. There are spots in a tournament where you don't get to negotiate the outcome. You're deep, you're comfortable, you finally pick up the hand, the stack sizes line up, the action makes sense, and in that moment, the worst decision you can make is letting the fear of being the first one out talk you into a bad fold. Because then you're not playing poker. You're playing for survival. You know those spots early in a tournament, the first level or two, maybe the third hand of the tournament, and this little voice creeps in. Do I really want to risk my whole tournament right now? Do I want to be that guy? And sometimes, yeah, you don't. Sometimes discretion really is the better part of valor. But sometimes folding in that spot is how you guarantee a long, miserable day of second guessing. But there's a huge difference between punting chips and accepting risk. A lot of bust outs don't come from one wild decision, right? They come from a chain of small ones. Playing too many marginal hands, chasing spots that don't exist, forcing action because you're bored. And then eventually, you end up in that hand, the one that keeps you up at night. The One you replay in the shower or the one you really wish you could get back. But sometimes that hand isn't a mistake. It's kings versus aces. It's a set versus a turned straight, boat over boat. It's the right shove that runs into the top of someone's range. Those hands don't mean you played bad poker. They mean you played honest poker. Really? And that's where I think a lot of players get tripped up. We're so afraid of being labeled reckless that we forget the cost of being afraid. Playing scared doesn't protect your stack. It just quietly limits your upside. Tournaments aren't won by avoiding every risk. They're won by taking the right risks at the right time, even when the timing feels uncomfortable. Right? If the hand dictates the action, you owe it to yourself to play it that way. Not because you want to be a hero, not because you're chasing a story, but because folding a hand you know you should play is how fear sneaks into your decision making. And yeah, sometimes that means you're the first one out of the tournament. Sometimes it's a quick walk to the parking lot or a long drive home with too much time to think. Sometimes you're watching everyone else play for many more hours, and none of those things feel good. But I'd rather live with the outcome of a hand that played itself than the regret of folding just to survive. Just don't confuse courage with carelessness. Play the hand the way it should be played. Accept the result. And don't let the fear of being first out keep you from playing real poker. That's today's one outer. And that's today's show. I'll see you next week. A team. And until then, I'll see you at the tables.

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