Apologetics Profile: Episode 298

The State of the Atheist & Christian Debate

Guests: Justin Brierley (author, speaker, podcast host)
Hosts: James Walker & Daniel Ray
Date: July 21, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Apologetics Profile explores the current landscape of public debate and conversations between atheists and Christians. Host Daniel Ray engages with Justin Brierley—a longtime facilitator of interfaith dialogue and the former host of “Unbelievable?”—to discuss the recent resurgence of interest in Christianity among some nonbelievers, common misconceptions around faith, and why the central questions of meaning, purpose, and beauty remain enduringly relevant. The episode features reflections on recent testimonies, prominent voices, and the shifting intellectual climate on both sides of the debate.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. New Interest in Christianity Among Atheists and Agnostics

• Testimonies from Popular Figures

  • The episode opens with the example of Adam Curry (former MTV VJ), who recently became a Christian after exploring the faith for the first time:

    “God is real. Jesus existed and has changed my outlook on life.” – Adam Curry (00:55)

  • Curry describes being drawn in by the wealth of writings on Jesus and the welcoming responses of Christians around him.

• Prominent Intellectual Agnostics

  • The hosts discuss Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad), a former “new atheist” who now leans agnostic, attends church, and recently had his children baptized—highlighting the irony and complexity of cultural Christianity in the UK:

    “I view myself as living in a paradigm where I've had something taken away from me... and I don't want to take away from my children.” – Carl Benjamin (04:40)

  • Benjamin’s story illustrates a search for “wonder” and tradition, even as he hesitates to personally commit.

2. C.S. Lewis, Moral Relativism, and Cultural Critique

• Lewis’s Abolition of Man
  • The episode delves into C.S. Lewis's critique of moral relativism—the idea that all values are subjective, as taught through a grammar book called “The Control of Language,” critiqued in Abolition of Man.
  • Lewis argues this reduces virtue to mere emotion, creating “men without chests”—a metaphor for generations trained to ignore objective morality (06:18).

    “Lewis says this impulse to relegate morality and virtue to mere feelings creates men without chests, where the chest is considered to be the seat of virtue.” – Daniel Ray (06:18)

  • The hosts warn that sneaking such relativism into education engenders a philosophically shallow culture.

3. Richard Dawkins and the Contradictions of Atheist Critique

• Dawkins on Religion and Culture

  • Justin recounts Richard Dawkins’ unwavering opposition to religion:

    “I would like it never to have existed.” – Richard Dawkins (09:00)

  • Brierley notes this position conflicts with Dawkins’ nostalgic love for Christian cultural trappings—cathedrals, carols—demonstrating the difficulty in separating religious experience from cultural meaning.

    “If religion goes extinct, it will go away. You won’t have these nice trappings of cultural Christianity that you like, Richard.” – Justin Brierley (10:10)

• Dawkins’ Shifting Arguments

  • Dawkins has at times acknowledged the value of living in a Christian country (09:41, 26:25).
  • In debates, he grants that Jesus existed, but dismisses all supernatural claims as “anti-scientific” (12:32).

• Flawed Arguments Among New Atheists

  • Carl Benjamin criticizes new atheists for leveraging already secular culture rather than engaging real arguments:

    “They didn’t kill belief in Christianity, they buried it. By the late 90s... the civilization had long become secular...” – Carl Benjamin (14:11)

  • “Even now, I look back and think their arguments were terrible... I'm kind of embarrassed by it.” (15:37)

4. Two Parallel Social Media Trends: Rebirth and Deconstruction

• Rebirth:

  • Atheists/agnostics, with little prior exposure to Christianity, are engaging seriously with the faith, seeking “a better story” amidst cultural shallowness (16:18).
  • Many are drawn to historic traditions (Anglo-Catholic, Orthodox, Catholic) rather than contemporary evangelicalism.

    “A lot of the return [to church] are young men... Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy represent something that feels serious and grounding to them.” – Justin Brierley (19:06)

• Deconstruction:

  • Ex-evangelicals publicly dissect and critique evangelical subculture, particularly its politicization, often migrating to older traditions rather than abandoning faith completely.

5. The Power of Beauty, Wonder, and the Design Argument

• Nature as Witness to the Sacred

  • The conversation touches on how experiences of awe—like entering a slot canyon—prompt a search for transcendent meaning, echoing cathedral-like awe (21:53).
  • Brierley observes many atheists-turned-believers cite these moments as pivotal:

    “I think those are probably the moments when the average atheist feels the greatest tug on their sense that this is all here by chance.” – Justin Brierley (22:26)

• Subjective vs. Objective Meaning

  • Dawkins is quoted as both insisting all beauty is “illusory”—a chemical trick—and admitting he loves the truth and beauty of cathedral worship (26:25).

    “It’s very difficult to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and sort of simply anchor [meaning] in physical processes.” – Justin Brierley (26:25)

• Conversion Stories Exemplifying These Points

  • Jennifer Fulweiler’s transition from atheism to Christianity began with the birth of her child and the conviction that love cannot be just “brain chemistry” (24:35).

6. Faith, Evidence, and the Leap to Belief

• The Misconception of 'Faith Without Evidence'

  • Larry Sanger (Wikipedia cofounder, recent Christian) realized Biblical faith is not blind belief but “an act of trust”—a rational commitment:

    “Faith is an act of trust in God... You place your faith in God, an active reliance upon, an active trust.” – Host referring to Larry Sanger (31:09)

• Evidence and the Will to Believe

  • Some skeptics set ever-shifting evidentiary standards, revealing that resistance may not be intellectual (32:05).
  • Others, like historian Molly Worthen, convert after reassessing the historical evidence for Jesus, particularly through personal challenges to examine it deeply (32:48).

• Shifts in the Intellectual Atmosphere

  • The dominance of “new atheist” rhetoric has waned; many young people, raised without religious antagonism, are now open to investigating Christianity with fresh eyes (36:40).

7. Purpose (“Telos”), Meaning, and the Limits of Scientific Explanations

• The Telos Debate

  • Using a helium balloon analogy, the discussion illustrates the natural human demand for purpose—if we see balloons on the ceiling, we look for intent; why not with the universe? (38:47)
  • John Lennox’s and Lawrence Krauss’s debate on “why” questions:

    “Why did it come to be? The answer... is in terms of a personal agent.” – John Lennox (41:57) “The why question is an invention. It presumes there must be purpose. But if there isn't, the question is irrelevant.” – Lawrence Krauss (42:44)

  • Brierley counters that the impulse to ask “why” is deeply human and not silly—materialists assume “matter is all there is” without justification (45:11).

• Growing Openness in Secular Circles

  • Increasing numbers of secular thinkers (e.g., Paul Davies) admit that the cosmos hints at purpose—even if they do not use the word “God.”

    “...the natural laws of the universe may not be the end point of this quest.” – Justin Brierley (48:18)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 00:55 | “God is real. Jesus existed and has changed my outlook on life.” | Adam Curry | | 04:40 | “I view myself as living in a paradigm where I've had something taken away from me... and I don't want to take away from my children.” | Carl Benjamin (Sargon of Akkad) | | 06:18 | “Lewis says this impulse to relegate morality and virtue to mere feelings creates men without chests...” | Daniel Ray | | 09:00 | “I certainly would like [religion] to cease to exist from now on... I would like it never to have existed.” | Richard Dawkins | | 10:10 | “If religion goes extinct, it will go away. You won’t have these nice trappings of cultural Christianity that you like, Richard.” | Justin Brierley | | 14:11 | “They didn’t kill belief in Christianity, they buried it. By the late 90s... the civilization had long become secular...” | Carl Benjamin | | 15:37 | “Even now, I look back and think their arguments were terrible... I'm kind of embarrassed by it.” | Carl Benjamin | | 16:18 | “There’s a search for authenticity in Christianity and faith...” | Justin Brierley | | 22:26 | “...the average atheist maybe feels the greatest tug on their sense that this is all here by chance.” | Justin Brierley | | 24:35 | “That’s not truth.” | Jennifer Fulweiler (quoted by Brierley, on experiencing love for her newborn) | | 26:25 | “It’s very difficult to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and sort of simply anchor [meaning] in physical processes.” | Justin Brierley | | 31:09 | “Faith is an act of trust in God... You place your faith in God, an active reliance upon, an active trust.” | Larry Sanger (paraphrased by host) | | 41:57 | “Why did it come to be? The answer... is in terms of a personal agent.” | John Lennox | | 42:44 | “The why question is an invention. It presumes there must be purpose. But if there isn't, the question is irrelevant.” | Lawrence Krauss | | 48:18 | “...the natural laws of the universe may not be the end point of this quest.” | Justin Brierley |

Important Timestamps

• 00:55: Adam Curry’s testimony on finding faith
• 03:52: Carl Benjamin on cultural Christianity and his children’s baptism
• 06:18: Explanation of Abolition of Man and the roots of moral relativism
• 09:00: Richard Dawkins expresses wish for religion’s extinction
• 12:32: Dawkins concedes Jesus’ existence, rejects miracles
• 14:11: Carl Benjamin critiques the effectiveness of new atheist reasoning
• 16:18: Justin Brierley discusses the double trend of deconstruction and rebirth in faith communities
• 22:26: The role of awe and beauty in conversions from atheism
• 31:09: Larry Sanger on the rational basis of biblical faith
• 41:57: John Lennox and Lawrence Krauss debate purpose and the “why” question of the universe
• 48:18: Justin Brierley highlights a rise in secular openness to transcendent purpose

Conclusion

This episode underscores a shifting landscape: While some deconstruct their upbringing in evangelical subcultures, others—having never explored faith—are now drawn to Christianity’s narrative, meaning, and tradition. The engagement of prominent agnostics and skeptical thinkers signals a move beyond 2000s-style new atheism toward a more nuanced, authentic, and open conversation. Notions of beauty, purpose, and the adequacy of purely materialistic explanations remain at the heart of the most vital debates.