Episode 325: Apologetics From a Pastoral Point of View with Pastor Chris Legg - Part One

Summary

Apologetics Profile – Episode 325: Apologetics From a Pastoral Point of View with Pastor Chris Legg – Part One

Hosts: James Walker and Daniel Ray
Guest: Pastor Chris Legg
Release Date: January 19, 2026

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Overview: Purpose and Main Theme

In this episode, Daniel Ray (co-hosting with James Walker) features Pastor Chris Legg of South Spring Baptist Church in Tyler, Texas, for a deep dive into what apologetics looks like at the pastoral and congregational level. Rather than focusing on formal debates or academic methods, Legg and the hosts explore apologetics as a seamlessly integrated aspect of Christian life, ministry, and community—arguing that it should not be reserved for intellectuals or seen as distinct from other church practices, but woven into the very fabric of discipleship, relationships, and everyday conversation. Their discussion is rich in personal anecdotes, biblical references, and humor, offering a realistic and humble picture of what “defending the faith” looks like on the ground.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Apologetics as “Clear Vision”—The Optometry Analogy

[00:47–04:01]

• David Smalley draws an analogy between optometry and apologetics: Like a pair of well-made glasses, the best apologetics are “invisible”—not drawing attention to themselves but allowing others to “see Jesus more clearly.”
  • Quote: “If we as apologists do our jobs well, you won’t see us so much as you will be able to see through what we do... Apologetics should be seamlessly integrated into your daily life, just like a comfortable pair of glasses or contacts.” (David Smalley, 01:37)
• Apologetics is not only about formal techniques or philosophical arguments; it’s also the lived day-to-day experience of defending one’s faith to oneself and others.
• Emphasis on humility and making Christ central: “He must increase, I must decrease.” (cf. John the Baptist, 01:55)

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2. Distinguishing Definitions and Approaches to Apologetics

[04:01–05:13]

• Apologetics is not “just arguing” (Monty Python skit humorously used to illustrate this—see notable moments below).
• Christians—formally trained or not—practice apologetics whenever they answer questions about their faith.
• The biblical mandate is to respond “with gentleness and respect.”
  • Quote: “Providing intelligent arguments for the Christian faith should not be confused with merely arguing with people about Christianity.” (David Smalley, 04:57)

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3. Common Pitfalls: Argumentativeness and The ‘Ship of Fools’

[07:03–08:40]

• The danger in apologetics is slipping into mere argument or prideful debate, as opposed to gracious and respectful conversation.
• Self-awareness: even apologists can be “the fool” in debates, treating non-Christians like objects to “win” rather than people to love.
  • Quote: “At times, early on in my apologetic endeavors... I have been guilty of reinforcing the unfortunate impression that apologists tend to be more argumentative and confrontational.” (David Smalley, 08:40)
• Apologetics should prioritize relationship and witness, not “gotcha” moments.

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4. Doing Life Together: Apologetics as Community Practice

[09:29–12:42]

• Apologetics at South Spring is part of the DNA of the church, not an academic add-on.
• The value of humility: “Our greatest strength is that none of us have any idea what we’re doing… It helps you stay humble, and it also helps you live absolutely dependent on grace.” (Chris Legg, 12:10)
• Living the Christian life together amid “the madness and folly” of the world forms the context in which apologetics naturally happens.
• Community support and shared journey are central.

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5. Integrative Apologetics—Rejecting False Dichotomies

[13:11–15:19, 14:20–15:19]

• Chris Legg rejects the idea that faith and science, or faith and reason, are at odds.
  • Quote: “Let’s leave those [false dichotomies] to the nonbelievers and let them have those views... This is a seamless concept called truth... Understand [apologetics] integrates perfectly into the way we live our lives.” (Chris Legg, 14:20)
• Apologetics is not a “specialty discipline” but essential for every believer.

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6. Chris Legg's Background and Perspective

[15:54–18:45]

• Shares personal testimony: marriage, adoption, career in counseling, pastoral work.
• Owns a counseling center focused on faith-based, well-trained practitioners.
• Emphasizes living “absolutely dependent on grace” and integrating faith into all areas of life—including critical thinking.

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7. Apologetics as an Identity-Level Change

[22:35–26:38]

• Becoming a Christian involves an “identity change” not just behavior modification: a new foundation, a new kingdom, and a rational, reasonable faith.
• Apologetics helps answer whether faith is reasonable: “Is what I’m being asked to believe reasonable? Can I defend it?”
• Apologetics begins internally—answering one’s own doubts and questions prepares believers to offer a reasoned defense to others.

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8. Translating Arguments into the Vernacular

[28:11–29:37]

• The art of apologetics is not to oversimplify, but to “translate sophisticated arguments into a vernacular everyone can understand.”
• C.S. Lewis championed this approach—making deep truths accessible.

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9. Interpretation, Integration, and The Bible as Apologetics

[29:37–33:44]

• Every pastor practices apologetics, whether they acknowledge it or not.
  • Quote: “You can’t teach the Bible without engaging in apologetics... so much of the Bible is unapologetic.” (Chris Legg, 29:37)
• Books like Hebrews, John, and Romans are apologetics-oriented.
• There are multiple, converging sources of knowledge about truth—empirical, historical, intuitive, revelatory—which, if done right, should all agree.

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10. Reconciling Science and Faith, Wonder and Purpose

[33:44–37:45]

• Both creation and revelation communicate aspects of God—nature as “general revelation.”
• The Comet Three Eye Atlas example: the world assigns meaning via science or mysticism, but neglects to see such events as declarations of God’s glory (cf. Psalm 19).
• Culture craves meaning and purpose but fails to connect it back to the Creator.

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11. Integrated Revelation, False Dichotomies, and Wholeness

[37:45–42:08]

• Christians often create unnecessary categories—“direct revelation,” “general grace,” etc.—when in reality, revelation is “a continuum, not blocks.”
  • Quote: “I think divine revelation extends all the way... It’s a continuum, not a blocks.” (Chris Legg, 38:00)
• God’s truth is not compartmentalized—he reveals himself through all five senses of knowledge, dreams, nature, and scripture.
• Believers are called to see “parables in everything”—God revealing Himself through daily life and cosmic wonders.

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12. The Sky, Human Creativity, and The Creator

[42:22–47:51]

• The wonder of the heavens points to God’s might; humans (“his poema”—artwork) point to his artistry.
  • Quote: “When you want to look at my art, look in the mirror.” (Chris Legg, 44:22)
• Jesus as “tecton”—not just a carpenter, but an artisan, craftsman, or foreman, working with his hands—demonstrates the blend of divinity and humanity, power and humility.

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13. Apologetics as Every Conversation

[47:53–48:09]

• Everyday pastoral work, counseling, and even discussing the value God places on individuals become apologetics—“Teaching them the truth of the hope that I have based on how God apparently sees me... I am defending the faith in that moment.” (Chris Legg, 48:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You don't invent a religion and make yourself look like buffoons.” (Chris Legg, 00:00)
• “Apologetics should be seamlessly integrated into your daily life, just like a comfortable pair of glasses or contacts.” (David Smalley, 01:37)
• “If done properly, the apologist should decrease, become invisible, so that Jesus becomes clearer and more visible.” (David Smalley, 01:54)
• “Providing intelligent arguments for the Christian faith should not be confused with merely arguing with people about Christianity.” (David Smalley, 04:57)
• Monty Python “Argument Clinic” Skit—(05:13–06:49) used humorously to highlight the difference between meaningful apologetics and mere contradiction.
• “Our greatest strength is that none of us have any idea what we’re doing... It helps you stay humble, and it also helps you live absolutely dependent on grace.” (Chris Legg, 12:10)
• “Let’s leave these false dichotomies… faith and science, or faith and reason, are not in opposition to each other... This is a seamless concept called truth.” (Chris Legg, 14:20)
• “You can’t teach the Bible without engaging in apologetics... so much of the Bible is unapologetic.” (Chris Legg, 29:37)
• “I think divine revelation extends all the way... It’s a continuum, not a blocks.” (Chris Legg, 38:00)
• “When you want to look at my art, look in the mirror.” (Chris Legg, 44:22)
• “I am defending the faith in that moment... It’s just all integrated.” (Chris Legg, 48:09)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:37 – Optometry/Apologetics analogy
• 04:01 – Day-to-day apologetics
• 05:13 – Monty Python skit: “Argument Clinic” (humor, not mere contradiction)
• 08:40 – Risks of argumentativeness in apologetics
• 12:10 – Chris Legg’s philosophy: humility and grace in community
• 14:20 – Rejecting faith/reason dichotomies
• 22:35 – Identity change in Christian conversion and rational faith
• 29:37 – Interpretation vs. translation, apologetics in teaching
• 33:44 – Nature, science, and dual revelation
• 37:45 – Integrated revelation, false dichotomies
• 44:22 – Ephesians 2:10, humanity as God’s art
• 48:09 – Apologetics in every conversation, pastoral counseling

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Tone & Style

The conversation is informal yet earnest, weaving together biblical insights, personal stories, and humor. Both hosts and Pastor Legg model humility—frequently admitting “we don’t know what we’re doing,” deflecting credit to God, and emphasizing grace and dependence on Christ. Apologetics emerges not as combative or academic, but relational, accessible, and deeply embodied.

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Conclusion

This episode reframes apologetics not as confrontational argument or technical specialty, but as an integrated, lived reality of the Christian faith—with a strong emphasis on humility, community, and the seamless union of reason and revelation. Through stories, analogies, and rich biblical engagement, Legg and the hosts invite listeners to see apologetics as essential for every believer, every day.

Transcript

[Chris Legg]

You don't invent a religion and make yourself look like buffoons.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

This is Apologetics Profile, a weekly podcast equipping you to engage the world of non Christian ideas, beliefs and spiritual practices.

[Ophthalmologist Explainer]

What's the difference between an ophthalmologist, an optometrist and an optician? So an ophthalmologist goes to medical school, they perform any medical procedures, and they do surgery on eyes as well, such as lasik, cataract surgery, glaucoma surgery. Optometrists go to optometry school, so they do general eye care, glasses prescriptions and contact lenses prescriptions.

[David Smalley]

That is a professional ophthalmologist. Briefly explaining the differences between an ophthalmologist, an optometrist and an optician. All of these specialists are focused on caring for our eyesight, but if they do their jobs well, their work will be more or less invisible to us. We will quite literally see through what they have done for us. Whether it is corrective eye surgery, general eye care, or the prescribing and crafting of custom contact lenses or eyeglasses. The end result of these experts endeavors will hopefully be clearer vision for their patients. Most of us who depend on glasses or contacts probably don't much think about the mechanics and the technical details behind the ophthalmology or optometry. We simply enjoy the benefits of the skills and wisdom of the experts. Analogously, it is my personal opinion, as one who is in the profession of Christian apologetics, that apologetics, the formal or informal reasoned defense for the hope and faith we have in Christ, should be just like the art and science of ophthalmologists, optometrists and opticians. If we as apologists do our jobs well, you won't see us so much as you will be able to see through what we do. Akin to what John the Baptist said of Jesus, he must increase, I must decrease. So if done properly, the apologist should decrease, become invisible, so to say, so that Jesus becomes clearer and more visible. Apologetics should be seamlessly integrated into your daily life, just like a comfortable pair of glasses or contacts. Through the lenses of apologetics, hopefully you are able to see the centrality of Jesus and the Christian faith in your own life and in the wider culture. More clearly, We might say that there are at least two facets to apologetics. One is the formal technical apparatus of apologetics, the formal education, the training, the the various philosophical approaches and methods of apologetics. For example, you may have heard about the various formal methods of apologetics, including the classical, the presuppositional the evidential, the reformed and the fetish apologetic approaches. Each approach has its strengths and weaknesses. An excellent, even handed assessment of the different kinds of apologetics can be found in Kenneth Deboah's and Robert M. Bauman Jr. S 2005 second edition. Faith has its integrative approaches to defending the Christian faith. We'll have a link to that book.

[Dan]

In the notes of this episode.

[David Smalley]

The other facet of apologetics is the day to day lived out experience of defending our faith both to ourselves. How do I know what I know? Why do I believe what I believe? And to others who ask us questions. Whether we are formally trained in apologetics or not, whether we recognize it or not, apologetics is a part of our everyday lives as Christians. Even if you have had no formal educational training in apologetics, if you have ever attempted to give a defense to someone who asks you about your faith and hope in Christ, or why you believe the Bible to be true, or what God is like, you have in some sense practiced the discipline of apologetics. Scripture mandates and exhorts us to give a defense to anyone who asks of us, but with gentleness and respect. Apologetics is not about overwhelming non believers with our favorite philosophical arguments or a myriad of facts about Bible history or textual criticism. Providing intelligent arguments for the Christian faith should not be confused with merely arguing with people about Christianity.

[Monty Python Character 1]

You just contradicted me.

[Chris Legg]

No, I didn't.

[Monty Python Character 1]

Oh, you did.

[Dan]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[Monty Python Character 1]

You did just then.

[David Smalley]

No, no. Nonsense.

[Monty Python Character 1]

Oh, look, this is futile.

[Monty Python Character 2]

No, it isn't.

[Monty Python Character 1]

I came here for a good argument.

[Monty Python Character 2]

No, you didn't. You came here for an argument.

[Monty Python Character 1]

Well, an argument's not the same as contradiction can be. No, it can't. An argument's a collective series of statements to establish a definite proposition.

[David Smalley]

No, it isn't.

[Monty Python Character 1]

Yes, it is. It isn't just contradiction.

[Monty Python Character 2]

Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

[Monty Python Character 1]

But it isn't just saying no, it isn't.

[David Smalley]

Yes, it is.

[Monty Python Character 1]

No, it isn't. Argument's an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic game saying of anything the other person says.

[Chris Legg]

No, it isn't. Yes, it is.

[David Smalley]

Not at all.

[Chris Legg]

No.

[David Smalley]

Look.

[Chris Legg]

Thank you. Good morning. What? That's it. Morning.

[Monty Python Character 1]

I was just getting interested.

[Monty Python Character 2]

Sorry, the five minutes is up.

[Monty Python Character 1]

That was never five minutes.

[Chris Legg]

Just now.

[Monty Python Character 2]

Afraid it was.

[Monty Python Character 1]

No, it wasn't.

[Monty Python Character 2]

Sorry, I'm not allowed to argue anymore.

[Chris Legg]

What?

[Monty Python Character 2]

If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

[Monty Python Character 1]

But that was never five minutes.

[Dan]

Just now.

[Monty Python Character 1]

Oh, come on, this is ridiculous.

[Monty Python Character 2]

I'm very sorry, but I told you I'm not allowed to argue unless you faith. Oh, all right.

[Monty Python Character 1]

There you are.

[Chris Legg]

Thank you.

[David Smalley]

Well?

[Chris Legg]

Well what?

[Monty Python Character 1]

That was never five minutes just now.

[Monty Python Character 2]

Told you I'm not allowed to argue. I guess you paid.

[Chris Legg]

I just paid.

[David Smalley]

No, you didn't.

[Monty Python Character 1]

I did. I did.

[Chris Legg]

I did.

[Monty Python Character 1]

Look, I don't want to argue about that.

[Monty Python Character 2]

Well, I'm very sorry, but you didn't pay.

[Dan]

Aha.

[Monty Python Character 1]

Well, if I didn't pay, why are you arguing? Gotcha.

[Chris Legg]

There you have.

[Monty Python Character 1]

Is that if you're arguing, I'll ask the pay.

[Monty Python Character 2]

Not necessarily. I couldn't be arguing in my spare time.

[Monty Python Character 1]

I've had enough of this.

[Dan]

Maybe that is what you think of.

[David Smalley]

When it comes to apologetics. Just a ship of haughty fools who like to argue, momentarily strutting about on.

[Dan]

The YouTube stage in a sound and fury that signifies mostly nothing.

[David Smalley]

As the late 15th century poem the Ship of Fools begins, all lands in holy writ abound, and works to save the soul are found the Bible, Holy Father's lore, and other such in goodly store so many that I feel surprised to find men growing not more wise, but holding writ and lore in spite. The whole world lives in darksome night in in blinded sinfulness persisting, While every street sees fools existing who know but folly to their shame, yet will not own to folly's name. One vessel would be far too small to carry all the fools I know. Though written over 500 years ago, it sounds like it could have been written yesterday. As the fate of the fool it will also befall me. Why then have I been extremely wise? Wonders the preacher in the second chapter of Ecclesiastes. Perhaps you have seen Christian apologetics videos and debates that sound more foolish than wise. Something like the Monty Python skit we heard.

[Dan]

More than a defense of Christianity given in gentleness and reverence.

[David Smalley]

And perhaps sadly, like me, maybe you have at times been the fool yourself in arguments with non believing friends or family members. I know I have. At times, early on in my apologetic endeavors on YouTube and social media, I have been guilty of reinforcing the unfortunate impression that apologists tend to be more argumentative and confrontational, trying to prove points that cannot finally be proven, or just trying to trap non believers in gotcha moments, all of which end up treating the non Christian like an object instead of a person. Christmas created in the image of God. Life, of course, is not always as neat and tidy as an apologetic argument for God's existence.

[Dan]

It can be very frustrating at times.

[David Smalley]

Trying to give a defense for our.

[Dan]

Faith in a world that does not.

[David Smalley]

Take it seriously or maligns us as fools for believing any of it. This is not, of course, an excuse to berate unbelievers, but it is an acknowledgment that we have within us a very real propensity to act foolishly ourselves, even as Christians indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the madness and folly of life experiences, our own sinful and accusatory hearts, our flesh, the hatred, the lust, the violence, tragedy and vainglory of the world, our pride and covetousness, the innumerable conspiracy theories and deluge of nonsensical chaos in social media, the natural disasters and evil of the world all seem to conspire against biblical wisdom and can leave us frustrated, exhausted, and easily disillusioned. What then, is the point of being wise in such a foolish and sinful age as ours? It can all seem overwhelmingly futile at times. But as the preacher in Ecclesiastes also reminds us, there is finally nothing new under the sun. The words recorded in Ecclesiastes are as relevant today as they were many centuries ago. What, then, should apologetics done well look like in real life beyond heated YouTube debates and response videos? About 10 years ago I met Pastor Chris Legg of South Spring Baptist Church in Tyler, Texas. Chris and I struck up a friendship and in the interim decade I have been invited to South Spring many times. Their love for Jesus and their love and fellowship extended to me has made South Spring my second church home and have always been blessed by their company and through interaction with Chris and the body at South Spring, through their prayerful support of what I do at Watchman, God has slowly, over time, transformed my own views and practices of apologetics. The joy and delight of living the Christian faith is evident in Chris approach to ministry and in the fellowship at South Spring. Apologetics is a seamlessly integrated facet of Chris teaching, counseling and pastoral ministry. The body of believers at South Spring certainly don't claim to have God all figured out. They do leave plenty of room for God to be God in what they teach and how they live. But they are doing the Christian life together in community, trying to sort through the foolishness of the world, striving to answer challenging and difficult questions, and helping.

[Dan]

One another to see Jesus more clearly.

[Chris Legg]

It is a crazy adventure. I have said many times. I think our greatest strength is that none of us have any idea what we're doing. And I mean as I think it saved us from so much pain that we just like, okay, we'll do that then. And so it's been, it's been great and we have. It helps you, it helps you stay humble, and it also helps you live absolutely dependent on grace.

[David Smalley]

Their church even has a podcast called Reconstructed Faith, which helps struggling believers and those who know struggling believers grapple with and better understand the hallmarks of an authentic, lived out Christian faith. A link to their podcast can be.

[Dan]

Found in the notes of this episode.

[David Smalley]

So if you or someone you know is struggling with their faith in Christ or have questions about the Bible or Christianity in general, I highly recommend going.

[Dan]

Through the episode Archives of Reconstructed Faith.

[David Smalley]

Apologetics for Chris and South Spring Baptist Church is an integral part of everything they do on the next two episodes of Apologetics Profile, Chris and I will be talking not so much about the formal, technical and philosophical aspects of apologetics, but more about what apologetics done well looks like for a church family. On an everyday basis, our conversation touches on our personal experiences with apologetics and sometimes might sound like we get a little tangential, but for the most part, that is because both Chris and I know from experience how exciting it can be to see how seemingly disparate and unrelated topics actually do fit together within the larger, all encompassing reality of the greatest story ever told. Out of the madness and folly of everyday life, we can, if we persevere and study to show ourselves approved, see the light of God's Word illumining our path. As Chris told me during our conversation, he does not view apologetics as a separate niche specialty discipline within Christianity. Rather, he sees it as an essential, integral part of our everyday lives in Christ.

[Chris Legg]

Leave these false dichotomies, leave this, this idea that faith and that faith and science, or faith and reason are in opposition to each other. Let's leave those to the non believers and let them have those views and let them try to defend those views. And let's let us be the ones going, no, no, this, this all integrates this, this all works together. This is, this is a seamless concept called truth. Don't, don't see apologetics as somehow this distinct thing over here that's independent from don't think of this of apologetics. Is this distinct area of study independent from the other study that you're doing. Instead, understand it integrates perfectly into the way we live our lives, into the way we defend our faith with our actions, defend our faith with our words, defend our faith, defend the reason for the hope that we have.

[David Smalley]

So why be wise? In an age of ever increasing Foolishness because we are called to be wise by Jesus himself, who gives us wisdom just for the asking. His wisdom is the only means by which we may negotiate our way through the foolishness and madness of the sin that so easily ensnares us. As we begin Part one I had Chris introduce himself and then I share the story of how we met. Here is lead pastor of South Spring Baptist Church in Tyler, Texas, Chris Lake.

[Chris Legg]

I have been married 33ish years. 32. 33 years. And, and to the end to the same woman, which is miraculous on her part. It's really. She has shown herself to be a very faithful and endearing woman. And, and I have five great kids. Three the old fashioned way and then two adopted. And the oldest one you have gotten to meet, he is still in Scotland. He's finished his master's and is doing writing. In fact, he and I wrote a book together. I'm sure I'll figure a way to work that into the conversation later.

[Dan]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Chris Legg]

And, and then so, gosh, a long time ago I started doing counseling. My master's degree was focused towards big a career in therapy. And so I am the owner, operator and clinical director of Althia Family Counseling center which is hubbed in Tyler, Texas. Here I am. And, and we now have five or six centers throughout Texas that are all getting started and growing and super exciting. It's, it's a counseling center that is based in all of our, all of our practitioners are faith, faith based and grace understanding believers, followers of Christ who are also extremely well trained, fully licensed, all the stuff. So they know the material, they know the theory, they know the pre, the ethics. And all of it is founded on eternal truth. So we have a ton of fun with that. And then now 15ish years ago, First Baptist Church of Tyler also hired me to do some campus pastor work. And then about eight years ago they planted us as an independent church, South Spring Baptist Church. And, and I am the lead pastor now for that and have been there for now 7ish, 8ish years. And man, it is, it is, it is a crazy adventure. I've said many times, I think our greatest strength is that none of us have any idea what we're doing. And I mean as I think it saved us from so much pain that we just like okay, we'll do that then. And so it's been, it's been great. And we have. It helps you, it helps you stay humble and it also helps you live absolutely dependent on grace.

[Dan]

Yes.

[Chris Legg]

In that way. And so that, that's actually. Then, you know, we'll talk about other aspects of this, I'm sure. But living in grace and walking by faith isn't the same thing as checking your brain at the door. And. And that'll be a fun part of our conversation, I'm sure. But anyway, I think that kind of covers it. Just the basic. The snapshot of who I am right at this moment.

[Dan]

Yes. And I will divulge how we know each other every time I talk about this. It's hard to believe, but it's been at least, Chris. I mean, we're coming up on 2026, and I think I contacted you at the tail end of 2016 while I was finishing up my degree at Houston Baptist in apologetics. And you and I, as you know, were on the same atheist podcast. I was on one episode, and then you were on a couple episodes after me. It was David Smalley's dogma debate, and David no longer does that. He's doing comedy work in Southern California. But I heard you and I heard you were in Tyler at South Spring, and I was like, I gotta get ahold of Chris. And so we had a wonderful phone conference conversation, and it's been a mutually encouraging relationship over the years. And your church has been phenomenal in supporting me spiritually, financially, and having me out to speak, having me on the podcasts. It's my second home church, home away from home. It is truly what you said a minute ago about it being like nobody knows what they're doing, but you have such a love of God and Jesus and the body, the people there. Everybody treats me like I'm family there. There's truly a spirit of the Lord that pervades the church. I remember one Wednesday night I was there, you had me speaking, and somebody says, ask me afterwards, what do we do now that we have this information that you've given us? And I forgot what I was talking about, but I said, well, just keep doing what you're doing because it's a wonderful environment. Whatever you're doing. Look at the kids run. Look at the children running around listening. Look at the families. Look at the dinners you have on Wednesday nights. Look at all the people that come out. It truly is. You guys are living the adventure in the Christian life, completely dependent on Jesus. And I love the church out there. But one facet of what you guys do as a ministry out there is apologetics in a way that is like optometry. In other words, I, as a professional apologist, talk about apologetics, which is what we're going to talk about today, but you guys do exactly what I think apologetics should be. It's like good optometry. If an optometrist has done his job well, you don't even see his work.

[David Smalley]

You see through it. He helps you to see through.

[Dan]

If he's done major glasses well, you don't even notice them. And that's what I think is so remarkable about what you guys do at South Spring, is that you make apologetics seamless as part of the gospel message. I mean, there's nothing wrong with focusing on and learning about optometry. Of course you have to go to school to do that. But in the end, the end result is that apologetics should be a seamless part of the overall ministry of talking about the gospel. And so I thought it would be great to have you on to talk about how you guys do apologetics at South Spring, because I think a lot of times I encounter pastors and other Christians who are a little bit suspicious of apologetics. Like we're some cadre of intellectuals who thinks pastors in the church are inferior to us because we have all the knowledge and all the answers. But I want to dispel that and have you testify of how you integrate apologetics into your church. Not just top down, but you have everybody in the body. Every time I show up and talk, people show up. It's amazing. And it's a seamless, integrated way of doing apologetics that I think if other churches caught onto, would be phenomenal as well. So why don't you talk a little bit about how you guys do this?

[Chris Legg]

Yeah, this is the foundation for us, you know, about following Christ, is, is that there is an identity change. And so a conversion, really. And part of what makes conversion so hard for adults and easier for children is that you're kind of wiping away not only everything built on the foundation, but the foundation too. And then you're beginning to rebuild on a whole new foundation and a whole new kingdom, a whole new set of rules, a whole new God, either not yourself or something else. And you're replacing all of that. And that's super tough. But it's identity level change. It's not just behavior modifications, identity level. And I think a very fair question for anyone to ask if you're asking them to make a change is, well, is this reasonable? Is this a rational thing to do? Does this? Or is this stupid? Is this ridiculous? Is this absurd? And I think one of the issues, I was kind of raised in a church that I don't think Intentionally but presented this idea that Christianity was something you believed in opposition to science and opposition to reason and opposition to even what you knew it was really the religious concept of gaslighting. I mean it was, I know you know this isn't true, but you need to believe it anyway or you know this can't be true and you need to believe it anyway. And so I was kind of raised on this. I mean again, I think well motivated but ignorant understanding of that blind faith meant in defiance of the evidence or in defiance of your questions or whatever. And so it ends up being that Mark Twain faith is believing what you know ain't so version of Christianity. And I think that absolutely flies in the face of Jesus teaching. It flies in the face of the Apostle Paul's teaching. And so for us, I think it's great, a great question. Is what I'm being asked to believe reasonable? Can I can. Is it defendable? Well, by definition, if you learn how to answer your own questions and how to wrestle with your own concerns and how to ask hard questions and that kind of stuff and answer your own hard questions with reasonable answers, well, you're now prepared to be kind of an apologist. Is if you, if you can make a defense internally then the, the that, that Greek word apolog, I guess but is you know, pertaining to the word apart from the word. And so like apo apart or away as I understand it. And then I'm not a Greek scholar, but Logos, the same thing is used for Christ in John chapter one. But logic is this is a, is this because also a root there. But, and so that you're like yeah, makes sense to me that of course a God of truth, you would be able to talk about him in terms of rational truth or, or any, any search for truth would potentially lead you to Him. But I, I, so what we do is it just integrates like I may offer a simple defense of something on a Sunday morning. Like we're going through the book of Isaiah now. And it, I did three weeks of preparation in order to pre begin preaching through the book of Isaiah, which no one does apparently. Again, I don't know what I'm doing. So I'm like, well we just studied Luke and Luke references Isaiah a ton. So what if we then do an exegetical study of the book of Isaiah? I announce it, pray about it, think about it, talk to my team about it, announce it. None of them know what they're doing in here. And, and so then we reach out to, I reach out to my mentors and, you know, my accountability partners and elders and all of my mentors are like, yeah, I, I've never talked to Isaiah. That, that seems like a really bad idea. And all these pastors are former pastors. And I'm like, well, because. And so one of them is like, I'm fascinated to see what you do with that. That's going to be fun. I was like, yeah, training hard to look away from.

[Dan]

You'll be pleased to know, Chris, that this episode we've slated to air in between two episodes, talking to a commentary scholar on the book of Isaiah. How about that?

[Chris Legg]

That's pretty amazing.

[Dan]

Yes. John Oswalt, he has a two volume commentary on Isaiah. I totally recommend it. He's fantastically conservative. In a world swimming in higher criticism and liberal biblical scholarship, John is a gem. So you, you're kind of like, I think you've encompassed what you've voiced, what we all think. And I remember when I was in the military, I was a young army private at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, a premier military installation in the United States, one of the premier army divisions, helicopters and paratroopers In World War II, a lot of great history. And I'm standing in the men's room at the sink, washing my hands with a retired lieutenant colonel who's since passed away, George Heath. And George, with his gigantic Southern drawl, notices my little private stripe on my collar and says, now, Dan, I'm gonna tell you something. He said, this is only room in the building. People know exactly what they're doing. And.

[Chris Legg]

I'm totally stealing that.

[Dan]

That guided my entire army career. I was like, George Heath, you know, hey, Dan, I need you to go out and do this. I don't know what I'm doing. Just go do it, okay? And I hear George Heath's voice in the back. I'm like, okay, I'll just go do it. I'll pretend like I know what I'm doing.

[Chris Legg]

No one else knows either.

[David Smalley]

That's right.

[Dan]

That's right. Well, you know, but it's not to say that we're just blindly going along with our eyes closed. As you said a minute ago, God has given us plenty of defensible facets of the created world, by which are all pointers to Him. As Romans says, even the physical creation attests to God's invisible attributes. His divine majesty, his power, his strength, his wisdom. Everything can be discerned about God from nature itself. And if we just got a sermon from nature, that would be sufficient to convict us that there is a God. We're not going to get the gospel out of staring at trees, but we are going to get something about God's nature by examining nature, which is science. Science wants to know what nature is all about. But the scientific materialism is something that I think apologetics helps to address. People come to church with questions about what do I do with the Bible and science. And it's not that you have to be a scientist to understand things, to understand these arguments, but to understand them in a way. I feel like what you do, what I've seen you guys do, is what C.S. lewis argued about, argued for, is translating sophisticated arguments into a vernacular that everybody can understand. And that's what I think the art of apologetics is, is to. Not to oversimplify, but to translate.

[Chris Legg]

Right. My dad, the forestry professor, the correct term for that is called interpretation. And so if you're taking someone on a nature walk, what you're doing is you're interpreting nature to them. If you take someone on a museum, you're an interpreter. You're. You are. You're telling them what it means, not just what it says. That's a translator. You're an interpreter. A therapist is an interpreter. I'm sitting down with a husband and a wife or a person who's had a traumatic event, and I'm helping them understand not what happened, they know what happened, but what it means. And so that's interpretation. And this is what's wild to me is any pastor, I think you might. I may have talked about this at some point, but any pastor who's like, I'm opposed to apologetics, I'm like, I'll bet I could watch your sermons for a month, and then I could circle all the times when you engage in apologetics because you, you can't teach the Bible without engaging in apologetics. Like, it's not, it's not pot. I don't know that it's possible to teach the Bible because so much of the Bible is unapologetic. So the entire book of Hebrews, almost the entire book of John, much of the book of Romans, I mean, these are apologetics. These are. I mean, Hebrews is nothing but an apologetic from the Hebrew perspective. This is why this makes sense. This is why this is reasonable. I'm making a defense of the claims of Christ in your terms as a Jewish audience. Like, and it's, it's brilliantly done. And even with the Apostle Paul, you know, on Mars Hill, starting by quoting Plato, my opinion. But Men of Athens, I think is, he's quoting Plato, he's at the infamous beginning to start of any speech in there. But, but then he actually cites, we actually get his citation of a couple of, of Greek philosophers and poets. And I just, I, I think it's a little, honestly, I've always thought the first time I heard someone say like something about that, like, well, but that's not apologetic stuff or, you know, like we need to be focused on more practical. And I'm like, I don't, I don't understand what, what is unpractical about knowing whether what I'm supposed to believe is true. That doesn't feel unpractical to me. That feels fundamentally practical. Is it true? Is it defendable? And you, you may remember, I know it's been like you said, a decade, but one of the things I had the hardest time because any, any long thought was always hard with David Smalley. You know, he would interrupt and, but so the long, the long thought of, you know, epistemology, the study of what is knowable, of what is true. What I was trying to show him was the, you know, the five main reason, empirical evidence, history, intuition and revelation. The five sources of what is knowable. If, if they're being done right should lead to the same conclusions because they're all studies of what is true. And if something is true, then it's objectively true. And so, and so they should never. If they're, if you, if, if your scientific endeavors and your understanding of revelation are in conflict, that means you're doing at least one of them wrong, maybe both, but certainly at least one of them. And, and I've never understood the idea that something is more likely to be true based on the opposite of what's reason or science or that's, that was never the Church. The Church's stance early on, science would not exist without the Church. The Enlightenment was dependent upon the Church, the root tenants. I'm sure you've talked to Turek before, but I mean a lot of these, I mean, and Lewis were talking about these, I mean Augustine was talking about these things. These are, these, these are in fact. And Paul was talking about these things in the beginning of Romans. So I don't know, and I don't know if you would correct this language, but I don't know that everything about God can be studied through, can be learned through natural study. But enough about God, based on Romans one can be learned through natural study.

[Dan]

God designed the revelation to be twofold, I think revelation and creation. I think absolutely you aren't going to get a sufficient gospel Message from a hike through the Grand Canyon. You will get something of the majesty of God, but you're not going to get the gospel in Calvary. Just recently, you probably know in the news, this comet called Three Eye Atlas was.

[Chris Legg]

Yeah, Three Eye.

[Dan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. People have been abuzz about speaking of interpretation.

[Chris Legg]

Right.

[Dan]

Everybody's trying to give it meaning. Exactly, Chris. And the thing that is, and this is, I think, a perfect example of where apologetics comes in, because if you're on social media or you're on the Internet, there's a ton of information coming from all different directions, Christians and non Christians alike, about what this is. I saw a Facebook video from a Christian who thought that Three Eye Atlas were demons toying with us. And then Ave Loeb, who is the Harvard astronomer, thinks that it's potentially an alien being or an alien or a UFO craft or something, because it's interstellar from out of the solar system. And so where's the sane interpretation of what's going on in the heavens? And the thing that nobody is saying is I haven't heard one person talking about the glory of God because as David says in Psalm 8, the heavens or Psalm 19, the heavens are telling of the glory of God. I haven't heard anything in all the viral stuff about the comet being one of the manifest declarations of God's glory. So the characteristic problem, I think the greatest illogical cognitive dissonance of our age, the incompatibility where our culture wants to make meaning out of this event.

[David Smalley]

I mean, this comet passed along the.

[Dan]

Plane of the orbit of the planets almost perfectly.

[Chris Legg]

Yeah.

[Dan]

And all naturalistic science can say is that this was a coincidence or this was an accident and they are desperate to assign some kind of purpose for it, but are bereft of the language of purpose and intentionality. The universe screams purpose and intentionality. And it seems to be like a foot in the trash can that people are suppressing that purpose and intentionality. So when they look up at the universe, the best they can come up with is aliens or, you know, but.

[David Smalley]

But people are.

[Dan]

People want to know, you know, what this means. You can take the astrological approach, like astrology. What does this mean? You can take a scientific materialism. Well, it's made up of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide and it's spinning into the solar system. Or you can take some kind of metaphysical or supernatural approach and say it's demons or something, but nobody's talking about the ultimate purpose of it being a declaration of the glory of God. And so That's, I think, by and large, Chris, what we're struggling with in culture. A detached observational purpose and declaration of what God is doing in history. Because he's not an innocent. He's not a bystander. He's not a deistic bystander up in heaven with his arms closed. God is operating in and through agents right now. I mean, Hebrews, you mentioned Hebrews. He upholds all things and sustains all things. Paul says in acts, as you said, in him.

[David Smalley]

In him we live and move and have our being, but our brains are detached from.

[Dan]

We have this wall of separation between church and everything else. I do during the week and I can't, I'm struggling to make connections so that conspiracy theories take hold of our minds because we don't know how to bring Jesus into the workaday world and have a defense for our faith in everything that we do.

[Chris Legg]

I, I really feel like, so what you're, what you're noting here, I, I really blame us as Christians for it. I don't, I'm not of course surprised that worldly perspectives or secular perspectives on things try to draw this, you know, neat dichotomy like Dr. Tyson does about, well, that's subjective thought versus objective thought. And only, only empirical evidence. I, yeah, like only empirical evidence can lead to knowledge. And every time he says some version of that, I want to ask him like, really, what empirical evidence do you have to support that statement? Because you just made a self refuting statement for a brilliant man. You just made maybe the most classic blunder of all time. But anyway, but I blame us because we even divide out revelation, for example, into, well, you have direct revelation and indirect revelation. You have, you know, specific grace and general grace. And like, I don't, I don't see those divided out. We. So I don't know if that's part of our evolved brain that we so want to taxonomize everything. But I mean, I don't think we're body, soul and spirit in like these three orbiting things around each other. We're body, soul, spirit, mind, heart, strength, like 10 different colors of play. D'oh. That have been squished together by a 3 year old until they're just this one purpley brown color and you're never getting them back apart. And I think divine revelation extends all the way. It's a continuum, not a blocks. And, and so I feel like, because you know, when we hear stories of people having dreams in a country that has no access to the Bible or, or that God reveals himself through A dream versus something that is, you know, or someone else who is, you know, in a drunken stupor on their coattail floor when God saves them, speaks to them like or, or this, you know, a random King James Bible they can barely understand sitting in a hotel room. And that's what gets there under, like. I think God's revelation extends through all five of those sources of knowledge. I think it's not one or the other. I think he, he reveals through those. Now obviously the most trustworthy form of his truth is found in his direct revelation, in His Word, but we still have to interpret that too. It's not like we still have to understand it in its correct context and form of speech and, and type of literature. And I, I think we create these, Christianity is, if we're not infamous for it, we should be infamous for it for these unnecessary and often false dichotomies. It's this or this and we, we break it down into two. You know, it's God's subjective will or his divine will or his permissive will or his direct will. Like, like, do you do that with yourself? Like, I think we're, I think sometimes we create an unnecessary die cut. And again, I love the debate and I love the conversation and I get it, I even understand it. But I think sometimes that's us. As I had a friend once say, that's, that's us as three year olds talking about sex like we have no idea we're talking about. And so we just start assigning meaning when we don't know. And how do we do that? And I think what you described is the, the Christ follower begins to see parables in, in everything. Like God revealing himself through a comet or an asteroid. Like he's revealing. Like for me, here's what's always struck me, Dan, is that he, when he tells us, listen, you want to see, you want to see my power? You want to see my might? Look to the skies. That's what he tells Job, right? Look, look to the skies. Like, see those constellations? And, and by the way, you, we, I don't know, we've talked about this like we ought to. If not, we probably have time for it today. But to nerd out on which two constellations God is talking about because it's the ancient Hebrew and we don't know for sure. But it could be that in that passage that God references the largest star that we can see with the naked eye and the oldest star that we can see with the naked eye or one of the, like Arcturus And Betelgeuse, maybe the two he's referencing. And of course, Joe would have no idea that this was either the oldest or one of the oldest stars that he could see and one of the largest or largest star that he could see with his naked eye. But God would know that.

[Dan]

Absolutely.

[Chris Legg]

That would be just so cool. If that's true. I don't. I will never know outside of the new Jerusalem, but we can take a class together. That'd be so cool to take God's astronomy class someday. Yeah. Have you, by the way, have you ever thought about this side note? Sorry, this is my mom. Bohemian Brain works is. Have you ever wondered like. Because I think we still work in heaven, but what, what do people like you and me do in heaven? Like, no one's going to come hear me teach about John because they'll go to John's class on John or, or they're not going to hear me teach about Hebrews with whoever is the author of Hebrews, they're going to go to his or her class on the book of Hebrews. Like I. Yes, we have to be students for the rest of our lives because we'll never. No one's ever going to care my opinion about any of it. That I can imagine.

[Dan]

Anyway, I think you have a valid point and I've often thought about that and I've often mused about. Okay, the Bible is kind of quiet on the details of our. If you call it day to day, time will be different. But our day to day lives in eternity. And to some degree I think we have. Like you just said, you were talking about divisions and we think about. We are so ingrained to think about the work that God has called us to do. Chris.

[David Smalley]

Right.

[Chris Legg]

Right.

[Dan]

You know that the eternity is a laying aside of our labor. That's our rest.

[Chris Legg]

You're exactly right.

[Dan]

What is that? Like we don't have a lot of details about.

[Chris Legg]

No, we don't.

[Dan]

We just don't. But, you know, if we take what Paul said, he was caught up into the third heaven and he heard words that he was unable to express. I just think it's going to be beyond. You know, no eye has seen nor ear has heard or has heard what has entered into the heart of man, what God has prepared for those who love him. So the rest will be something phenomenal. And I think.

[Chris Legg]

Excellent point.

[David Smalley]

I don't know.

[Dan]

But you know, I think it's beyond our capacity to fully comprehend what is life going to be like on an eternal retirement, an eternal rest, which is what Hebrews talks about don't fail to enter into that rest anyway.

[Chris Legg]

That's right. Hebrews what Four. I think that's four. But the. So here's what strikes me about the wonder of the sky is that he says hey, when you. When you want to see my might, look to the sky. But what's crazy is I think he teaches us in Ephesians 2. 10 that he's saying when you want to look at my art, look in the mirror. Ephesians 2. 10, which describes his. His people as his poema. It doesn't just mean poetry, it means any form of art. We use the. We use it to mean poetry written art. But it is a. And so every time I look to the sky and I teach people about the night sky, I am in awe. And I go and. But I always feel like I need to say now you just. We just need to know. I have a doctor friend who said the human body is proof that God is a. Is an engineer and an artist. And so. But when he says my poema is my people and my art is my people. And especially coming through the idea of Jesus being a tecton, meaning someone who works with his hands with natural resources, may or may not have been a carpenter. We actually don't know that that was a medieval translation decision. Stone worker is certainly more likely. Although there were carpenters. They made boats and yolks and a few other things. Most things are made out of stone in Israel. But is the idea of man, he this is a guy. Jesus is a guy who knows how to work with his hands to make beautiful and functional things. And he. Even on Earth he experienced that in a very dirty hands on way. I love the idea of the creator of heaven and Earth then getting to come to Earth and have to use a chisel to. Or a hammer to craft something. How unique of experience that must have been for someone who throughout eternity has spoken things into existence.

[Dan]

Yeah, the Greek word tecton is the same root from which we get tectonics.

[Chris Legg]

Right.

[Dan]

So plate tectonics. So the one who moves the continents became a man. And maybe he made furniture or built houses or we don't. We don't know what he did. But talk about humbling. Hey, I make planets now I'm going to come down here and make furniture for you guys. I mean talk about even.

[Chris Legg]

Yeah, he can. Even. Even the idea of. By the way, tecton can even mean a foreman. Yes, like his dad was a foreman. Because these are all about Joseph obviously doesn't Jesus is the tecton son not the tecton, but which, again, the irony and beauty and the poetry of that. But it could. It also could mean a sculptor. So I don't know if you've ever let your. I've never let my brain really wrap around the idea of Joseph being a sculptor. How that if we learn that someday that will be like, okay, dang, that. I wish I had known that all along. But that's a beautiful picture. But I love the idea that a God who considers his might revealed through stars more massive than we could possibly imagine, that he spoke into existence and spun them like a giant ball of flame at his whim, naming them and sending them into this, into the void. And yet when he goes like, but. But you want to see my artwork, it's not these massive balls of blue fire in space. It's. It's you and how humbling and touching that is about us.

[Dan]

So anyway, that is.

[Chris Legg]

But wild. That's all. Well, you know, just that conversation you and I had, it is an interpretation. It is a revelation. But I guarantee you, when you have that conversation, as a therapist, I will tell you, you have that conversation with a non believer. It is an apologetic.

[David Smalley]

Absolutely.

[Chris Legg]

Teaching them the truth of the hope that I have based on how. Because a lot of my hope that I have is based on how God apparently sees me. The fact that he sees me as treasure, the fact that he's willing to see me as art. I am defending the faith in that moment. And it's just all integrated.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Apologetics Profile is a production of Watchmen Fellowship Incorporated, Arlington, Texas. For more information on apologetics, cults, world religions, and other non Christian ideologies and practices, visit watchman.org today. That's what watchman.org.