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If you are an Evangelical Protestant, you likely know someone, friend, family member or co worker who professes to be a Catholic. The dialogue between Catholics and Protestants has a long and somewhat difficult history, especially since the advent of Martin Luther's 95 Theses and the Protestant Reformation they engendered over 500 years ago. On the next two episodes of apologetics Profile, we will be discussing a specific aspect of Catholic doctrine, that of Mariology, with Evangelical Protestant pastor in rome, Italy Leonardo DiCarico. For some three decades now, Pastor Leonardo has been reaching out to Catholics for substantiative and meaningful dialogue about the theological and practical differences between Catholics and Protestants. He is also the author of a number of books on the topic of Catholic and Protestant theology and engagement, including his short 2017 book, which we will be discussing this weekend next, titled A Christian's Pocket Guide to Mary, Mother of God. Pastor Leonardo's efforts are not just a superficial ecumenicalism, but a concerted theological and practical engagement with doctrines and dogmas that shape both Protestant and Catholic theology. Mariology, the dogma pertaining to Mary decreed by the Catholic Church's magisterium, the official teaching authority of the Church, is an indispensable and requisite dogma for anyone desirous of joining the Church or remaining a faithful communicant member. A devout Catholic is not free to disagree with the dogmas pronounced by the magisterium. Accepting these dogmas is absolutely essential to one's good standing in the Church and ultimately to one's salvation. To disagree willfully, knowingly, and intentionally with the magisterium's dogmas is nothing short of heresy. Such ongoing, willful rejection of official Catholic teaching ultimately will result in excommunication. In addition to jeopardizing one's salvation, There are at least four main tenets of Mariology put forth by the magisterium. Each of these are not mere opinions of popes, but are believed to be essentially necessary truths for one's admission into the Catholic faith, into eternal life. The foundational teachings on Mary include her being the Mother of God, of being a perpetual Virgin, of being immaculately conceived, and of being bodily taken up into heaven. The following summary is not meant to be exhaustive by any means, but only provides a quick overview of Mariology and some traditional Protestant responses. There is far more that can be said about these topics than could possibly be covered in the introduction here. The Greek term for Mother of God, theotokos, was first employed by the 431 AD Council of Ephesus in order to defend the biblical understanding that Jesus is both fully divine, that is, fully God, and fully human. Theotokos is not meant to convey the idea that God's divine, eternal nature ultimately originated in and through Mary, but for God, who exists eternally is without beginning or end. Theotokos is meant to convey that Jesus was, is, and will always be fully God and fully human, even when he was in Mary's womb. On this, both Catholics and Protestants agree. In that sense, Theotokos was meant to preserve, uphold, and venerate our Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, both fully God and fully human. Theotokos, however, was never intended to exalt or venerate Mary to the extent of Catholic devotion to her as practiced today. Catholic dogma insists Mary remained a virgin for her entire earthly life. Both Catholics and Protestants do affirm that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, but there has been much debate and disagreement as to whether she remained a virgin after Jesus birth. But according to the Catholic Church's magisterium, this is not a matter of interpretive opinion or debate. Rather, it is a foundational doctrinal truth that must be unequivocally accepted in order to be a communicant member of the Catholic Church. Catholic theologians will routinely cite early church fathers in defense of this doctrine, such as Jerome and Gregory of Nyssa. In addition, Mary's perpetual virginity became codified doctrine at the Fifth General Council at Constantine in 553 AD in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, widely published in English in 1994. Sections 499 through 501 outline this doctrine more succinctly. But according to Protestant theologians, a careful examination of the biblical texts does not specifically reveal that Mary remained a virgin throughout her lifetime. In fact, the Bible seems to indicate that Mary had children sometime after Jesus birth who are referred to as Jesus brothers and sisters. See Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6. 3. For example, Catholic theologians say that the plural form of the Greek word used by Matthew and Mark for brothers and sisters, adelphoi, can also mean cousins. But there is not a single New Testament use of adelphoi from Matthew to Revelation, which is utilized to mean cousin. Without the necessity of reading the dogma of Mary's perpetual virginity into the texts of Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6. Three, it seems a faithful contextual reading of these passages strongly points to Jesus having literal blood brothers and sisters by means of his earthly mother, Mary. In addition, the apostle Paul actually does use a Greek word for cousin. In Colossians 4:10, Paul describes Mark as the literal cousin Anepsios of Barnabas, which is never used by Gospel authors in identifying Jesus brothers and sisters. In addition, there is nothing in the Bible that unambiguously declares that Mary took a vow of chastity and abstained from sexual intercourse with Joseph after Jesus birth. Birth While not entirely impossible, it does seem unusual at the very least that Mary would marry Joseph but abstain from consummating her marriage. Matthew 1:25, for example, says that Joseph kept Mary as a virgin until she gave birth to Jesus. While not conclusive proof, this passage does at least suggest that Mary could have had intercourse with Joseph after Jesus was born. Thirdly, the dogma of Mariology dictates that Mary herself was immaculately conceived, that is from her own birth. By divine decree, Mary was spared from the sin that has engulfed and tainted everyone else who has ever been born. It is crucial to note that this dogma did not officially come about until the papal decree of Pope pius IX on December 8, 1854. The most blessed Virgin Mary was from the first instant of her conception by a singular privilege and grace granted by God in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, preserved, exempt from from all stain of original sin, according to Protestant theology. However, if you search the New Testament from beginning to end, you will not find any biblical support for this particular dogma save in the particular words of the angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary. Greetings highly favored 1:28 the Catholic Church traditionally interprets Gabriel's words as Hail Mary from full of grace. But one particular interpretation of a single verse does not a dogma make. We cannot examine by textual or historical evidence that Mary was perpetually sinless just from Gabriel's greeting alone. Consider that if Mary was indeed sinless from birth, why then does she later proclaim God as her Savior in the opening of the Magnificat? From what does Mary need to be saved if she is in fact sinless? If she cannot be sinless without God's declaration that she is sinless, then she stands in need of salvation from sin and death, just like the rest of us. The Bible, however, is resplendently clear that there is no one without sin, including Mary, with the exception of Jesus. Of course, to say that we have no sin is to deceive ourselves. The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, including Mary. To assume Mary has been sinless from birth is to assume egregiously far more than what the biblical texts actually tell us. Lastly is the dogma of Mary's bodily assumption into heaven, first decreed on November 1, 1950, by Pope Pius XII in the Kidron Valley just outside of Jerusalem. However, at the foot of the Mount of Olives is a church set over the traditional site of Mary's tomb. Now the tomb is empty, but this raises a question about Mary's sinlessness and her bodily assumption. Physical death is one of the chief consequences of sin. If Mary was indeed freed from the stain of original sin, why would she have physically died? Why would she even have a tomb in the first place? The Catholic answer is that Jesus was also sinless, yet suffered death on our behalf. And in Catholic theology, Mary is so closely tied to the missional experiences of her Son that she too could be sinless and yet experience death. But there is a dramatic difference between Jesus as the sinless Son of God, fully divine and fully human, dying on the cross in our place, and Mary, who was only human. There is nothing in the pages of the New Testament which attests to Mary being taken up bodily into heaven, as is the case with Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. Nor is there any kind of advocacy on our behalf associated with Mary's physical death. If Mary really was sinless, she was some kind of unique hybrid human of no relatable use for us who are sinful, as she cannot finally empathize or understand what it is like to struggle with the stain of sin, as we all do. In November of last year, the current Pope, Leo xiv, noted that the Church needs Mariology. It should be considered and promoted in academic centers, shrines and parish communities, associations and movements, institutes of consecrated life, as well as in places where contemporary cultures are forged, valuing the limitless inspiration offered by art, music and literature. As we begin Part one, I asked Leonardo about Pope Leo's commitment to Mariology and what it means for the Catholic Church today. Here is Pastor Leonardo DiCarico.