Apologetics Profile
Episode 328: Examining Catholic Mariology with Pastor Leonardo De Chirico – Part 2
Airdate: February 9, 2026
Hosts: James Walker & Daniel Ray
Guest: Pastor Leonardo De Chirico
Episode Overview
In this episode, hosts James Walker and Daniel Ray continue their thoughtful discussion with Pastor Leonardo De Chirico, an evangelical theologian based in Rome, about Catholic Mariology—the doctrines and devotional practices concerning Mary, the mother of Jesus. The episode explores how Mariology is woven into the fabric of Catholic belief, addresses common evangelical concerns (especially about Mary's intercessory role and Marian apparitions), and concludes with practical advice for fostering gracious dialogue between Protestants and Catholics.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Mariology at the Core of Catholic Teaching
- Catholic Doctrine Outlined: The discussion builds on Part 1 and highlights four core Catholic Marian doctrines: Mary's perpetual virginity, her title as "Mother of God," the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption ([00:27]).
- Integration into Catholic Identity: Pastor De Chirico emphasizes that these beliefs are not peripheral but central:
“You cannot be a Catholic without subscribing to the full Mariological picture… It's integral to the package, the Roman Catholic package with regards to the Gospel. You cannot pick and choose… Mary belongs to the core.”
(De Chirico, 03:48) - Biblical Authority: De Chirico insists the Protestant response must always come under Scripture’s authority, not a Protestant-vs.-Catholic word battle:
“It is not us versus them, me versus you… it is us wanting to listen to God’s Word and to respond faithfully to it.”
(De Chirico, 01:43 & reiterated at 20:07)
2. Mary’s Role as Intercessor
- Intercession and Nearness: Catholic devotion often portrays Mary as "nearer" to believers than Christ himself, facilitating a motherly intercession.
“Pope Benedict… emphasized this being nearer to us than Jesus himself and that Mary can intercede for us. In other words, we can pray to her and she can intercede for us to Jesus on our behalf.”
(Ray, 06:20) - Evangelical Objection:
“As Christians will rightly point out, there’s only one mediator… [and] prayers to the dead are troubling.”
(Walker/Ray, 06:31) - Pastor De Chirico’s Response:
“It undermines the mediatorship of Christ. If she’s nearer, it means that our Mediator, Christ, is not that effective, is remote, is far away… It also undermines the work of the Spirit… We have one mediator, we have one comforter... If we say that Mary is nearer, we’re actually saying that Christ is remote or removed, and the Holy Spirit is passive.”
(De Chirico, 07:42–09:06) - Scriptural Basis: The hosts quote 1 Timothy 2:5, Romans 8:26, Hebrews 4:14–16, and Deuteronomy 18:10–12 to underscore evangelical objections to prayers addressed to Mary or other deceased figures (necromancy) ([09:12]).
3. Marian Apparitions
- Context & Prevalence: Marian apparitions are widespread within global Catholicism (e.g., Fatima, Zaytun)—some hundreds have official Church approval ([12:43], 14:12).
- Evangelical Assessment:
“From an evangelical perspective, I would distinguish between… made up imaginations and real supernatural events… Biblically speaking, when a supernatural event leads people to Christ… we can say it has a divine origin… [But] when these supernatural events lead people to Marian devotions… that is an indication that their origin is not divine… It may be supernatural, but not necessarily divine.”
(De Chirico, 14:12–17:40) - Pastoral Wisdom: De Chirico cautions against total skepticism—some apparitions may be supernatural but are not necessarily from God, especially if they point people away from the Gospel or toward excessive Marian devotion ([14:12–18:23]).
4. Charity in Protestant–Catholic Dialogue
- Engaging with Gentleness and Respect: The hosts and De Chirico stress that discussions shouldn't be antagonistic. Pastor De Chirico shares his approach after 30 years in Rome:
“I always want to point people to Scripture… at least takes away from my own position the responsibility to say that they’re wrong… but it’s the Word of God that will eventually speak to them… [Also] sharing a living testimony, how the Gospel impacts my life, is important.”
(De Chirico, 20:07–23:10) - Key Principles for Engagement:
- Center the conversation on Scripture.
- Share personal, transformational faith rather than institutional critique.
- Recognize and gently address the “exclusive edges” of the Gospel (Christ alone, Scripture alone, faith alone).
- Invite Catholics to observe authentic Christian community.
5. Limits of Unity Between Evangelicals and Catholics
- Ecumenism and Its Boundaries:
“They can be united in co-belligerence acts in society… but the accounts of the Gospel are so different… there is no real fellowship in the Gospel that is possible… There can be friendship, cooperation… but not unity in the Gospel, because the accounts are so different—Mary is one example.”
(De Chirico, 26:45–28:28) - Same Words, Different Worlds:
“We use the same words, but we’re actually operating within different worlds… out of honesty and respect for one another, we have to realize that we don’t have the same basic accounts of the Gospel.”
(De Chirico, 28:28)
6. Can Catholics Be Christians?
- Pastor De Chirico’s View:
“It is possible. God is at work in different places, even strange places. But I would say not because of their Catholicism but in spite of it... If there are inconsistencies, if one person trusts Christ as his or her only Savior, Christ alone, on the basis of the Word of God alone, then—of course—God is at work in that person. But if one follows 100% what the church teaches, she will be confused, to say the least.”
(De Chirico, 30:03)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Mariology’s Centrality:
“Mary belongs to the core. And… the Roman Catholic account of the Gospel has been going in a different direction than the biblical boundaries we are to follow.”
(De Chirico, 04:43) -
On Pastoral Approach:
“It is us coming under the authority of Scripture… not us versus them, me versus you.”
(De Chirico, repeated at 01:43 and 20:07) -
On Apparitions’ Origins:
“It may be supernatural, but not necessarily divine because the divine origin translates into a divine intention leading to a divinely appointed response.”
(De Chirico, 16:05) -
On Unity:
“We use the same words, but we’re actually operating within different worlds.”
(De Chirico, 28:28) -
Pope Francis Anecdote:
“If you don’t accept Mary, she becomes your mother-in-law.”
(Ray recounting Pope Francis, 29:22)
“An angry mother-in-law!”
(De Chirico, 29:26)
Important Timestamps
- 01:43 – De Chirico's core method: inviting all sides under the authority of Scripture
- 03:48 – Mary as integral to the Catholic “package”
- 07:42 – Mary’s intercessory role and its theological implications
- 09:12 – Scriptural prohibitions against necromancy and prayers to Mary
- 14:12–18:23 – Evaluating Marian apparitions and their spiritual origins
- 20:07 – De Chirico’s practical counsel for Protestant-Catholic dialogue
- 26:45 – The boundaries of unity between evangelicals and Catholics
- 30:03 – Can Catholics be Christians? De Chirico’s nuanced response
Conclusion: Bridging the Divide
Pastor De Chirico’s thoughtful, Scripture-centered advice underscores that the conversation about Mary is really a conversation about the heart of the gospel. Differences between Protestant and Catholic worldviews run deep, especially on subjects like mediation, authority, and salvation. However, respectful dialogue—anchored in Scripture and genuine Christian charity—can foster clarity and mutual understanding, both for evangelicals and their Catholic neighbors.