Apologia Radio, Episode 512: Kristan Hawkins & IVF w/Bradley Pierce

Date: February 21, 2025
Host(s): Apologia Radio team (lead host: Luke), with Bradley Pierce (Heritage Defense)

Main Theme & Purpose

This hard-hitting, gospel-driven episode provides an in-depth exploration of the current state of abortion abolition bills, exposes rifts within the pro-life movement—especially regarding Kristan Hawkins and Students for Life—and scrutinizes the ethical and legal ramifications of in vitro fertilization (IVF) in light of a recent executive order from President Trump. The discussion intertwines Christian convictions, legal insights, and cultural commentary, aiming to educate and challenge listeners on issues of life, justice, and legislative activism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Legislative Updates on Abolition Bills

[03:07–09:25]

• Bradley Pierce, of Heritage Defense, provides an update on abolitionist legislative efforts nationwide.
• Texas: 17 co-authors on the most recent bill—“the most ever.” ([06:04])
• Other states: Georgia (21 co-sponsors), North Dakota, Oklahoma (“gone from zero to two” pro-abolition votes in committee), Iowa, Alabama, Ohio, Kentucky, South Carolina.
• Key insight: Persistence is yielding measurable progress—"one vote at a time, one committee at a time" ([07:57]).
• Quote: “This is what progress looks like. This is what winning looks like. And it’s happening all across the country.”—Bradley ([06:53])

2. Mainstream Pro-life Leaders Opposing Abolition Bills

[09:25–17:03]

• Kristan Hawkins (Students for Life) faces backlash for opposing equal protection/abolition bills.
• Discussion over controversial letters signed (or not signed) by pro-life organizations against equal protection (notably in Louisiana and North Dakota), with clarification of public records and her organization’s posture ([14:15–16:38]).
• Online fallout: “Blocking spree” by Hawkins and threats of legal action against critics.
• Quote: “There are people that are in leadership in the pro-life organizations…who use lots of money to not end abortion every year that have perhaps, shall we say, a different goal in mind.”—A ([11:15])

3. Cultural Conflict: Gospel-Centered Legislative Discipleship

[07:10–08:09; 10:27–11:34]

• Triumph in witnessing open proclamation of Christ’s authority within state legislative halls—a mark of true cultural discipleship.
• Memorable moment: Lawmakers openly arguing Christian doctrine and gospel principles in committee meetings.

4. President Trump’s IVF Executive Order

[17:59–20:13; 63:56–66:21]

• The order “speaks positively about IVF in a very kind of blanket way,” directing policy recommendations to facilitate “protecting IVF access and aggressively reducing out-of-pocket and health plan costs for IVF treatment” within 90 days ([18:55]).
• No immediate legal effect, but immense cultural impact.
• Critique: “It’s hideous…it needs to be spoken to truthfully and prophetically.”—B ([63:56])
• Advice: Engage President Trump respectfully but firmly, urging him to recognize the real-world impacts of IVF and related policy decisions.

5. Biblical, Ethical & Legal Analysis of IVF

[20:13–44:42]

• Sensitivity: Hosts underscore the need for pastoral care and compassion toward couples suffering infertility and children born via IVF.
• “Children created, regardless of the means, are blessings. Every child…is made in the image of God. We’re glad they’re here whatever the means of conception.” —A ([22:02])
• IVF Process Explained ([28:39]):
  • Eggs and sperm collected; fertilization yields many embryos.
  • Embryos are “graded” for viability; less viable embryos are discarded or frozen.
  • Most are lost in the process (estimates: 20–30 die per live birth).
  • “Selective reduction,” i.e., abortion of embryos during multiple implantations.
• Key ethical critique: Standard IVF is inherently destructive to many human lives—“a eugenic process” ([34:19]) mirroring “selective reduction” (abortion).
• Is ethical IVF possible? With current technology “I personally don’t know of a way to do it ethically…maybe in theory”—B ([35:58]).
• Adoption of frozen embryos (“snowflake adoption”) is praised as a redemptive, pro-life act.
• Memorable exchange: Comparison between valuing a born child and abandoned frozen embryos—both are image-bearers and equally valuable ([27:22]).

6. Abolition Bills and IVF: Legal Connections & Misconceptions

[44:42–56:10]

• Bills do not mention IVF or abortion by name; they simply require “equal protection”—i.e., all laws against homicide/wrongful death must protect unborn people as well ([47:19]).
• Effect: IVF clinics could not legally destroy embryos; would have to treat them with care.
• IVF industry uproar proves their business model assumes destruction of embryos: “All they're being required to do is handle them with care. They were like, ‘No, no, we can’t do that, that’ll completely shut down our operations.’” —B ([52:45])
• Critique: “If someone’s doing that [intentionally destroying embryos], that’s murder, and our bills would prohibit that.”—B ([48:03])

7. Addressing Common Objections: Miscarriage, Ectopic Pregnancy, and IVF

[59:02–63:42]

• Miscarriage/ectopic: Not criminal, not homicide under any abolition bill; “No one is talking about that…No crime has been committed…no one's going to be investigating every single miscarriage.” —B ([61:22])
• Doctors’ fears about liability: “That is asinine. That’s the opposite of abortion, you’re trying to do a rescue operation, not a mission to destroy.” —B ([63:04])
• Importance of stating these caveats and clarifying the law for public education.

8. Pastoral & Cultural Reflections: Technology and the Glory of God

[44:42–45:25]

• “We should view technology with grateful suspicion”—Doug Wilson (via C).
• The need for Christians to adopt technology in ways that honor God, not in ways that facilitate harm or commodification of human life.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Legislative Progress:
  • “One vote at a time, one committee at a time. And that’s what’s happening.” —B ([07:57])
• On Abolition Bill Simplicity:
  • “Here’s human life, therefore everything else has to bend to this reality that God has made the world in this way where people are protected.” —A ([50:09])
• On Christians and IVF Industry:
  • “If anyone is intentionally destroying human beings, the lives of human beings, that’s homicide. That would be prohibited…regardless of whether it’s an abortionist in a clinic, a mom ordering abortion pills, or an IVF doctor.” —B ([47:44])
• IVF Industry’s Challenge to Pro-Life:
  • “Wait a second, what are you committing homicide over there?…I mean, it tells you a lot about the IVF industry.” —B ([54:06])
• On Miscarriages:
  • “No one’s going to be investigating every single miscarriage. Sometimes people say that, and it’s just ridiculous.” —B ([61:22])

Important Timestamps

• 03:07–09:25 Legislative updates (TX, ND, GA, others)
• 11:34–17:03 Controversy: Kristan Hawkins, Students for Life, and pro-life opposition to abolition bills
• 18:55–20:13 Trump’s IVF executive order analyzed
• 28:39–38:44 Detailed IVF process; ethical and legal critique
• 47:19–51:07 How abolition bills treat IVF and related arguments
• 52:39–56:10 IVF industry’s reaction and public education via abolition bills
• 59:02–63:04 Addressing miscarriage, ectopic pregnancies, and false objections

Resources & Further Engagement

• Bradley Pierce & Foundation to Abolish Abortion: FAALife.org; @BradleyWPierce on X
• Abortion Free Docuseries: abortionfree.com
• Heritage Defense: heritagedefense.org

Tone & Takeaways

Direct, passionate, Biblically-rooted, and legalistic (in the best sense)—the discussion arms listeners with precise reasoning, compassion for the innocent, and a charge to get educated as cultural and political battle lines are drawn ever more sharply. This episode offers both strategic insight for activists and deep encouragement to maintain Christlike clarity and courage in public engagement over the sanctity of life.