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512. Kristan Hawkins & IVF W/Bradley Pierce - Apologia Radio | Wave AI Podcast Notes

512. Kristan Hawkins & IVF W/Bradley Pierce

Fri Feb 21 2025

We are grateful to have our dear brother and constitutional lawyer Bradley Pierce back on to discuss all of the recent hullabaloo surrounding Kristan Hawkins, as well as the recent IVF executive order signed by President Trump. Join us for the Aftershow! https://apologiastudios.com/shows/apologia-aftershow/

Summary

Apologia Radio, Episode 512: Kristan Hawkins & IVF w/Bradley Pierce

Date: February 21, 2025
Host(s): Apologia Radio team (lead host: Luke), with Bradley Pierce (Heritage Defense)

Main Theme & Purpose

This hard-hitting, gospel-driven episode provides an in-depth exploration of the current state of abortion abolition bills, exposes rifts within the pro-life movement—especially regarding Kristan Hawkins and Students for Life—and scrutinizes the ethical and legal ramifications of in vitro fertilization (IVF) in light of a recent executive order from President Trump. The discussion intertwines Christian convictions, legal insights, and cultural commentary, aiming to educate and challenge listeners on issues of life, justice, and legislative activism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Legislative Updates on Abolition Bills

[03:07–09:25]

Bradley Pierce, of Heritage Defense, provides an update on abolitionist legislative efforts nationwide.
Texas: 17 co-authors on the most recent bill—“the most ever.” ([06:04])
Other states: Georgia (21 co-sponsors), North Dakota, Oklahoma (“gone from zero to two” pro-abolition votes in committee), Iowa, Alabama, Ohio, Kentucky, South Carolina.
Key insight: Persistence is yielding measurable progress—"one vote at a time, one committee at a time" ([07:57]).
Quote: “This is what progress looks like. This is what winning looks like. And it’s happening all across the country.”—Bradley ([06:53])

2. Mainstream Pro-life Leaders Opposing Abolition Bills

[09:25–17:03]

Kristan Hawkins (Students for Life) faces backlash for opposing equal protection/abolition bills.
Discussion over controversial letters signed (or not signed) by pro-life organizations against equal protection (notably in Louisiana and North Dakota), with clarification of public records and her organization’s posture ([14:15–16:38]).
Online fallout: “Blocking spree” by Hawkins and threats of legal action against critics.
Quote: “There are people that are in leadership in the pro-life organizations…who use lots of money to not end abortion every year that have perhaps, shall we say, a different goal in mind.”—A ([11:15])

3. Cultural Conflict: Gospel-Centered Legislative Discipleship

[07:10–08:09; 10:27–11:34]

Triumph in witnessing open proclamation of Christ’s authority within state legislative halls—a mark of true cultural discipleship.
Memorable moment: Lawmakers openly arguing Christian doctrine and gospel principles in committee meetings.

4. President Trump’s IVF Executive Order

[17:59–20:13; 63:56–66:21]

The order “speaks positively about IVF in a very kind of blanket way,” directing policy recommendations to facilitate “protecting IVF access and aggressively reducing out-of-pocket and health plan costs for IVF treatment” within 90 days ([18:55]).
No immediate legal effect, but immense cultural impact.
Critique: “It’s hideous…it needs to be spoken to truthfully and prophetically.”—B ([63:56])
Advice: Engage President Trump respectfully but firmly, urging him to recognize the real-world impacts of IVF and related policy decisions.

5. Biblical, Ethical & Legal Analysis of IVF

[20:13–44:42]

Sensitivity: Hosts underscore the need for pastoral care and compassion toward couples suffering infertility and children born via IVF.
“Children created, regardless of the means, are blessings. Every child…is made in the image of God. We’re glad they’re here whatever the means of conception.” —A ([22:02])
IVF Process Explained ([28:39]):
- Eggs and sperm collected; fertilization yields many embryos.
- Embryos are “graded” for viability; less viable embryos are discarded or frozen.
- Most are lost in the process (estimates: 20–30 die per live birth).
- “Selective reduction,” i.e., abortion of embryos during multiple implantations.
Key ethical critique: Standard IVF is inherently destructive to many human lives—“a eugenic process” ([34:19]) mirroring “selective reduction” (abortion).
Is ethical IVF possible? With current technology “I personally don’t know of a way to do it ethically…maybe in theory”—B ([35:58]).
Adoption of frozen embryos (“snowflake adoption”) is praised as a redemptive, pro-life act.
Memorable exchange: Comparison between valuing a born child and abandoned frozen embryos—both are image-bearers and equally valuable ([27:22]).

6. Abolition Bills and IVF: Legal Connections & Misconceptions

[44:42–56:10]

Bills do not mention IVF or abortion by name; they simply require “equal protection”—i.e., all laws against homicide/wrongful death must protect unborn people as well ([47:19]).
Effect: IVF clinics could not legally destroy embryos; would have to treat them with care.
IVF industry uproar proves their business model assumes destruction of embryos: “All they're being required to do is handle them with care. They were like, ‘No, no, we can’t do that, that’ll completely shut down our operations.’” —B ([52:45])
Critique: “If someone’s doing that [intentionally destroying embryos], that’s murder, and our bills would prohibit that.”—B ([48:03])

7. Addressing Common Objections: Miscarriage, Ectopic Pregnancy, and IVF

[59:02–63:42]

Miscarriage/ectopic: Not criminal, not homicide under any abolition bill; “No one is talking about that…No crime has been committed…no one's going to be investigating every single miscarriage.” —B ([61:22])
Doctors’ fears about liability: “That is asinine. That’s the opposite of abortion, you’re trying to do a rescue operation, not a mission to destroy.” —B ([63:04])
Importance of stating these caveats and clarifying the law for public education.

8. Pastoral & Cultural Reflections: Technology and the Glory of God

[44:42–45:25]

“We should view technology with grateful suspicion”—Doug Wilson (via C).
The need for Christians to adopt technology in ways that honor God, not in ways that facilitate harm or commodification of human life.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Legislative Progress:
- “One vote at a time, one committee at a time. And that’s what’s happening.” —B ([07:57])
On Abolition Bill Simplicity:
- “Here’s human life, therefore everything else has to bend to this reality that God has made the world in this way where people are protected.” —A ([50:09])
On Christians and IVF Industry:
- “If anyone is intentionally destroying human beings, the lives of human beings, that’s homicide. That would be prohibited…regardless of whether it’s an abortionist in a clinic, a mom ordering abortion pills, or an IVF doctor.” —B ([47:44])
IVF Industry’s Challenge to Pro-Life:
- “Wait a second, what are you committing homicide over there?…I mean, it tells you a lot about the IVF industry.” —B ([54:06])
On Miscarriages:
- “No one’s going to be investigating every single miscarriage. Sometimes people say that, and it’s just ridiculous.” —B ([61:22])

Important Timestamps

03:07–09:25 Legislative updates (TX, ND, GA, others)
11:34–17:03 Controversy: Kristan Hawkins, Students for Life, and pro-life opposition to abolition bills
18:55–20:13 Trump’s IVF executive order analyzed
28:39–38:44 Detailed IVF process; ethical and legal critique
47:19–51:07 How abolition bills treat IVF and related arguments
52:39–56:10 IVF industry’s reaction and public education via abolition bills
59:02–63:04 Addressing miscarriage, ectopic pregnancies, and false objections

Resources & Further Engagement

Bradley Pierce & Foundation to Abolish Abortion: FAALife.org; @BradleyWPierce on X
Abortion Free Docuseries: abortionfree.com
Heritage Defense: heritagedefense.org

Tone & Takeaways

Direct, passionate, Biblically-rooted, and legalistic (in the best sense)—the discussion arms listeners with precise reasoning, compassion for the innocent, and a charge to get educated as cultural and political battle lines are drawn ever more sharply. This episode offers both strategic insight for activists and deep encouragement to maintain Christlike clarity and courage in public engagement over the sanctity of life.

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Transcript

A (0:00)

Non Rockabotus must stop.

B (0:02)

I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite?

A (0:13)

Delusional. Yeah, delusional is okay in your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional, using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt.

B (0:25)

She hung up on me. Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

C (0:44)

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies, not to make brosephs.

B (0:49)

Right.

C (0:50)

Don't go into the world and make homies disciples.

B (0:53)

I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke. Pastor. When we have the real message of.

A (1:01)

Truth, we cannot let somebody say they're.

B (1:03)

Speaking truth when they're not. Take an amazing journey to a place that will blow your mind and move your heart so you will never be the same again.

C (1:22)

When justice is done, it is a joy to the righteous, but terror to the evildoers. One who wanders from the way of good sense will restore and the assembly of the dead. And that is Proverbs 21:15 through 16. What's up, everyone? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. Luke the Bear here hosting today, trying to do all the things at once. Pastor Jeff got back late last night from Texas with our guests. We'll talk about that in a minute. So he's not here today? He's tending to some family things. What's up, Little Caesars?

A (2:03)

Not much, man. Glad to be here.

C (2:05)

We have a lot going on. I'm gonna get into this quickly here because some important stuff we want to discuss and I want to make sure we're spending lots of time on that. So first, let me just think. Well, we're gonna do an update on end abortion. Everything going on. We got bills all over the place, which is awesome. It's a good problem to have for sure. Stretches us a little thin, but it's a good problem to have. So first I want to thank Iron Layer. They're a great sponsor, great partner with us in ministry. You got your patch on today? No. You pulled the Luke. I actually put my hand remembered. And we're grateful them you go to iron layer.com to get your NAD patch. Put apology in the coupon Code and get sweet discount there. And then of course, we also got the new glutathione patches. The master antioxidant. Excited for that product as well. Oh, they got a coupon code for that as well. What was that? I'm just killing it today. Apologia again. You get 100, 100 off your first kit. So grateful, grateful for them. There's another sponsor, partner, ministry partner that we have. That's one of my favorites and that's Heritage Defense. And we happen to have one of the main guys from Heritage Defense on today, El Capitan. Yes. With a sweet library and claymore behind him. Bradley Pierce. What's up, brother?

C (69:35)

Almost all. Yeah. That's a lot. A lot of work. So. All right, man, we're grateful for you. And just at that, at that point, I just want to again thank some of our sponsors here. So we got amtech Blades. Bill Rapier just was texted with him today. Love that, brother. You can go to amtech blades.com and put apology in the coupon code, get 5% off your order. And he matches 5% to help us save babies. So grateful for him. And then of course, you can go to shop apologiestudios.com oh, I almost forgot. Our new sponsor, Page 50. We mentioned them last week. Super cool what they're doing. Page 50 is a full service marketing, media production company that wants to help Christians recapture the economic and civil spheres. I mentioned last week is a good friend of Brian Gunter, who's a good friend of ours. And so Brian's another, another dude wearing a lot of hats, doing some good work. So we're grateful for page 50 and go check them out. They're going to be at Reform Con, so if you come, we'd love to have you. You can come meet Stuart there at Reform Con. Which reminds me, I mentioned Elastic. We haven't quite got the promo up yet. Hopefully still this week. But we did announce two specials last week. Two promos. One is for pastors. We want you to bring your wife, get you in free. You can just put passwords in the coupon code when you go to register at Reform Con. And we're going to throw in an after party VIP after party ticket for you and your wife to have a date. So that was the first one. The second one is of course, then for our border agents, first responders, active military, legislators. You can put border in the coupon code, get you in there for free as well. And on Saturday, we're going to actually have some, at least one workshop on borders and biblical borders and what does God say about immigration? We're going to be very close to the border. Very, very appropriate. So we're like, you know what, this is a good conversation to have. And I talked to, we have a man in our church that works for ice and he loved the idea and like, yes, I want that. I need those, those questions answered. And I think there's a lot of guys like that. So anyways, that's coming up very quickly. So you can go to reformcon.org to get your tickets and I will stick around for an after show. Zach's got a bounce, so all you all accessors, please hop on over there and I'll join you in a few minutes. Bradley, thanks again, Brother Zach, any closing thoughts?