515. Reacting to 1 Pro-lifer Vs. 25 Pro-Choicers

Summary

Apologia Radio Episode 515 Summary
Reacting to 1 Pro-lifer Vs. 25 Pro-Choicers
Date: March 14, 2025
Host: Jeff Durbin, with Zachary Conover

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Episode Overview

This episode of Apologia Radio centers on a reaction and discussion to the Jubilee show episode featuring pro-life advocate Lila Rose debating the abortion issue with 25 pro-choice activists. Hosts Jeff Durbin and Zachary Conover use selected clips to comment on the logical, theological, and moral dimensions of the abortion debate, offering their perspective on pro-life consistency, gospel engagement, and the necessity of equal protection for the unborn under the law. The hosts also touch on recent pro-life legislative efforts and the role of the Christian worldview in public justice.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Update on Legislative Efforts (03:18–07:17)

• Zachary updates listeners on recent End Abortion Now efforts, particularly in Georgia.
• Calls for Christians to fill the Georgia Capitol on March 26th to support HB 441, an abolition bill with significant legislative backing.
  • "Your presence means everything. ... March 26th, at the Georgia Capitol stand with us. We want to fill all those floors and all those halls with believers with signs to say pass HB441." (05:54)

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2. Jubilee’s Format and Reflections on Lila Rose (07:17–09:57)

• The Jubilee channel format involves a "hot seat" for one advocate (Lila Rose) making claims, fielding responses from 25 pro-choice opponents.
• Hosts praise Lila Rose's intelligence, clarity, and courage for taking the "lion’s den" seat, even as they note points of substantive disagreement with her consistency and the pro-life establishment.
  • "You have to just double your amount of respect, too, for anyone that would go into the lion's den like this and ... in the center seat." (08:42 — Jeff)

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3. Claim 1: Abortion Leaves Women Scarred for Life (09:57–17:09)

Key Exchange:

• A pro-choice woman claims that, due to her circumstances (domestic violence, drug addiction), regretting her abortion is not logical, challenging Lila’s assertion.
• Jeff & Zachary note the language of “my baby” as evidence of truth suppressed by conscience and opportunity for gospel outreach.
  • "There's the suppression pointed out. There's the image of God in you. There's what you know to be true." (13:09 — Zachary)
• Lila Rose's compassionate but direct approach:
  • “It does break my heart that if you’re sharing you had an abortion, that there could be a child ... who would be cheering you on, saying, go get 'em mom. You got.” (15:10 — Lila Rose)
• The hosts argue for directly addressing the guilt and shame that often follows abortion, emphasizing the need for gospel hope.

Memorable Quotes:

• Zachary: "I'm always looking for moments like that to turn it into an opportunity to remove their hands from trying to hide what they know." (13:12)
• Jeff: “The appropriate response that anyone should feel when they take another human life in an unjustified manner, they should feel a sense of guilt.” (20:27)

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4. Authority and Bodily Autonomy Arguments (27:07–34:01)

• Pro-choice debater: Argues bodily autonomy supersedes life-preserving actions by the state.
  • "The right to someone's bodily autonomy supersedes the preservation of life." (27:27 — Paraphrased)
• Hosts’ Response: Expose the inconsistency—bodily autonomy is only granted selectively, not to the unborn.
  • "Either all humans have it or you’re deciding who gets it ... based on your own preference." (31:07 — Jeff)
  • "If bodily autonomy works for us, then it’s bodily autonomy for her and bodily autonomy for the baby inside the womb." (30:25 — Zachary)
• The hosts urge for an unqualified, non-partial approach to rights grounded in the Christian worldview.

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5. Claim 2: Abortion Cannot Be Justified Under Any Circumstance (37:06–41:45)

• Pro-choice argument: Distinction based on dependency—embryos are not “independent” in the way newborns are.
• Hosts rebut: Point out the arbitrary nature of “dependency” as a standard for protection, and note that infants (and even adults at various points) are deeply dependent on others.
  • "We go in and out of the dependency our entire lives." (39:21 — Zachary)
  • "The dependency argument is bootleg. It's completely bankrupt." (40:18 — Zachary)

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6. Claim 3: Every Unborn Child Has the Right to Life (43:06–53:24)

• Pro-choicer (Adam): Personhood begins at 22 weeks with "subjective experience," not at conception.
  • "A child implies a person. And I don't believe personhood begins until around 22 weeks..." (43:12 — Adam)
• Hosts critique:
  • Exposes the arbitrary and subjective standard (“Why 22 weeks?”) and points out this leads to inconsistency regarding other vulnerable humans (e.g. those in comas).
  • "If you don’t have this capacity ... we can therefore kill you? Nobody believes that because the line is arbitrary and he doesn’t believe it in the first place." (47:05 — Zachary)
• Christian position: All human beings are valuable from conception, grounded in being made in God’s image.
  • "If you’re a human, you’re a person." (50:31 — Jeff)

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7. Ban & Criminalization Debate: Legal Status and Equal Protection (53:39–69:56)

• Lila Rose: Highlights banning abortion in "pro-life" states and importance of resources for mothers.
• Hosts correct: No state has truly banned abortion—“DIY” (self-administered) abortion is not criminalized; laws often shield mothers from prosecution, due in part to pro-life lobby’s influence.
  • "Abortion is not banned in any state in this union. ... They actually have written into their laws, their pro-life laws that abortion, these, these law, this shall not apply to the mother." (54:44 — Zachary)
• On Criminalization: Hosts push for equal legal treatment for all forms of murder, including self-induced abortion.
  • "If the woman is acting as her own abortionist, then by logical necessity, she would be an actor in this conduct and she would need to face the same legal proceedings..." (62:30 — Jeff)

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8. Justice and Partiality in Law (65:15–69:56)

• Pro-choicer: If abortion is murder, why not punish the mother who “hires the hitman”?
  • "If you're calling it murder... then I'm hiring the assassin, so what should happen to me?" (67:06 — Pro-choice participant)
• Hosts: Agree, pointing to the logical consistency needed in law—equal protection and equal weights and measures.
  • "Let’s start with equal weights and measures. Let’s start with a just step towards what is righteous, good and true." (68:57 — Jeff)
  • "When it comes to crime in society, all of us recognize that we have to vilify certain actions..." (69:56 — Zachary)

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Notable Quotes & Segment Timestamps

• "There's the image of God in you. There's what you know to be true." — Zachary (13:09)
• "If you're a human, you're a person." — Jeff (50:31)
• "Either all humans have it (autonomy) or you're deciding who gets it..." — Jeff (31:07)
• "We go in and out of dependency our entire lives." — Zachary (39:21)
• "If you're calling it murder... then I'm hiring the assassin, so what should happen to me?" — Pro-choice participant (67:06)
• "Let’s start with equal weights and measures." — Jeff (68:57)
• "When it comes to crime in society, all of us recognize that we have to vilify certain actions..." — Zachary (69:56)

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Tone and Approach

The hosts balance theological rigor, apologetics, and social commentary with moments of personal reflection and storytelling. There is a clear emphasis on gospel application and seeking conversions, not just debate victories. They are consistently critical of inconsistency—both within the pro-life movement (especially the refusal to advocate equal legal protections for the unborn) and pro-choice participants (for arbitrary lines regarding personhood and rights).

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Conclusion

This episode offers a robust defense of the pro-life position from a biblical perspective while emphasizing the need for equal protection in law, gospel compassion, and intellectual consistency. The hosts praise Lila Rose’s courage and clarity, while also challenging her and the wider pro-life movement to more fully align their strategies with biblical justice. Throughout, listeners are encouraged to engage legislatively, evangelistically, and relationally on abortion—grounding all discussion in the authority of God's Word.

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For the full experience, refer to:

• 04:00–07:17: Legislative update and activism call in Georgia
• 09:57–17:09: "Abortion leaves women scarred for life" — pastoral observations
• 27:07–34:01: Bodily autonomy and Christian consistency
• 43:00–53:24: Personhood, value, and arbitrary lines
• 65:15–69:56: Legal ramifications, justice, and the call for consistency in law

(Non-content sections—advertisements, app promos, etc.—have been omitted for clarity.)

Transcript

[Jeff Coleman]

Non rockabotists must stop.

[Zachary Conover]

I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite? Delusional. Delusional? Yeah. Delusional is okay in your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me. Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage. Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make.

[Jeff Coleman]

Buddies, not to make brosephs.

[Zachary Conover]

Right. Don't go into the world and make homies disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, Pastor.

[Jeff Coleman]

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

[Zachary Conover]

Take an amazing journey to a place that will blow your mind and move.

[Jeff Coleman]

Your heart so you will never be the same again.

[Zachary Conover]

What is man's primary purpose? Man's primary purpose is to glorify God forever and to enjoy him forever. Psalm 16:11 says, in your presence is fullness of joy. In your right hand there are pleasures forever. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. You can get more@apologia studios.com that's a P O L O G I A apologia studios.com. if you haven't done so yet, go and check it out. You can get all the past episodes of cultish Shiologians provoked Apologia Radio. Hundreds and hundreds of episodes going back over a decade. Such an honor and a privilege to be doing this ministry for you and with you also. Don't Forget, go to apologiastudios.com and sign up for all access. We are about to get our app completed and very excited about that. You're going to get access. All Access partners with us in ministry. Get access to a bunch of additional content. All of our stuff on Apologetics with Eli Ayala. With Revealed Apologetics, you get the Apology Academy, you get the full episodes of Collision, you get the apology after show, you get the Ask me anything private stream once a month with me to sit together, ask questions, hang out and chat a bit. And so sign up for Apologia studios. All [e-mail] don't forget also to get your free completely free Bonson U account@ apologiastudios.com Greg Bonson, one of the giants of the Christian faith in Christian history, my favorite Christian philosopher and apologist in Christian history. And we have all of his life's work, the seminary lectures and class work, his sermons from church, his debates, all of that has been entrusted to us by the Bonson family and we're making it available for everybody. And so if you want top tier theological education, you can get it at Bonds and you apologia studios.com totally for free. Sign up. Don't delay. I'm Jeff the Coleman and Ninja. That's Zachary Conover.

[Jeff Coleman]

Hey everyone.

[Zachary Conover]

Director communications for End Abortion Now. Delighted to be with everybody today and just want to do a quick update before we get into today's show. Lila Rose in the center surrounded by 25 pro abortion activists. We're going to be doing that today, responding and reacting to some of the things that happened. It actually had some intense moments. I think this would be very interesting, entertaining and edifying to you. But I wanted to give everybody an important update as everyone's getting into the stream today. Everybody knows we announced that we have bills of abolition happening across the country right now, many states across the country. And everybody knows also that we had something going on in Georgia. The la. Was it last week we were in Georgia? I think it was last week we were in Georgia. Hard to keep up with it. Yeah, so much traveling. But in Georgia. And everybody knows we did a rally in Georgia in front of the Capitol. That was amazing. If you want to see that, it's right here in Apologia Studios. Just scroll through the last couple of feeds. It was live too. Yeah, live feed. And we were able to at the Capitol engage with a bunch of the legislators Monday and Tuesday. And good news for everybody. We do have a hearing date for finally that is going to be March 26th. March 26th, it's a Wednesday. I don't know exactly what time yet, although I will notify you right here on Apologia Radio and on my X profile and RX profiles and on Facebook as well. Let you know ex exactly the time. But here's the deal. If you are in Georgia or in the surrounding states, come and meet us on March 26th at the Capitol. We want to fill the Georgia Capitol up with believers from all over Georgia and again even from other states. Your presence means everything. Come and stand with me, with us I'm testifying at the. At the hearing itself with Bradley Pierce and our representative, Emory Donahue. But we need hundreds, thousands of Christians from all over Georgia and surrounding states to show up to the Capitol on March 26th. Be there, be present. We're going to have signs, little signs for everyone to say to pass HB 441 out of committee. And I cannot tell you what kind of. I cannot emphasize enough what kind of an impact it has on the legislators. If you are there that day standing, it has a tremendous impact. So you might be thinking, like, what's the big deal? Like, I'm just, you know, what's the matter? If I show up there, it means everything. As a matter of fact, just a little history to hear. When we got our bill in Louisiana to go to a hearing and it wasn't stopped by the pro life organizations, but made it to the hearing, that place was filled with Christians that day. Christians filling the halls, Christians filling the committee room. And that gave the legislators a lot of boldness to do what was right there. A matter of fact, it was an overwhelming yes vote, 7 to 3. And one of the legislators even said absolutely. He felt so confident to be able to say absolutely because that room was filled with people that were in support of the passage of that bill. And so to ask you from the bottom of my heart, if. If you're invested in this ministry and want to see God end this, Georgia has. Is. Is very, very close. Close to 25% of the house of Representatives in Georgia is already on our bill as. As co sponsors. That is huge. That itself is historic. That hasn't happened with an abolitionist bill yet. It's happening in Georgia. And so I got to tell you, your presence in Georgia on the 26th would mean so much to me, to us, to this ministry and to this cause. And so please make plans to be with me March 26th at the Georgia Capitol stand with us. We want to fill all those floors and all those halls with believers with signs to say pass HB441. Let's get thousands. Let's get thousands of people to show. Let's make it so overwhelming that they cannot miss it. And let's do that together. March 26th. So there's the update. Welcome to the show, everybody. So I love these things. I really love these things a lot. The.

[Jeff Coleman]

They're definitely entertaining.

[Zachary Conover]

They're very entertaining. They're a lot of fun to watch. They're really, really well done. I like just the cinematography is great. The setting is great. So if you haven't seen these. This is done by Jubilee. Jubilee. Jubilee does. Jubilee's channel does this. And you got just a bunch of them. You got the one we recently reviewed and responded to with Alex the atheist. That was really, really. Connor. Yeah, Alex Connor. That was a lot of fun. And just there's a number of really cool Hot Topic stuff. Charlie Kirk has done this and a number of Michael Knowles.

[Jeff Coleman]

Then they do ones where they have atheists in the center. Like, I saw one with cedar or whatever it was.

[Zachary Conover]

Right, right. So they're a lot of fun and they get a lot of views. And so we're gonna be reviewing this today. Lila Rose was in the hot spot for this one, surrounded by 25 pro abortion activists. Lila Rose is a blessing in many ways. We would have some disagreements with. With her, some important disagreements with her, or at least some ways we would want to say, like, let's be consistent together on this issue. I really like Lila Rose. I think she is just extraordinarily intelligent, and she's able to articulate her position very, very well. I just think she's a lovely person. And I am. I'm grateful for her. I truly, really am impressed by Lila a great deal. Impressed by her.

[Jeff Coleman]

And you have to just double your amount of respect, too, for anyone that would go into the lion's den like this and. Oh, for sure. In the center seat.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

With 25 angry people.

[Zachary Conover]

Aggressive.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, very aggressive. I mean, perhaps not angry, but hostile.

[Zachary Conover]

Yes.

[Jeff Coleman]

By and large.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. And you're all going to see that in a moment here. Lila. Lila takes it very early on from both barrels, from this first woman we're going to review here.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah. And essentially how it works is whoever's in the hot seat has a list of claims that they make about the topic they're dialoguing about. And then from my understanding, that's when the timer goes down. Whoever enters the seat first is the one who gets a few minutes to interact.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

And the people that are surrounding that are holding flags, if they feel that the conversation is becoming stale or it's not going anywhere, or if they just don't like it, it's pretty subjective, they just raise their flag. And if the majority of people out of 20 or 24 raise their flags, they. A new person comes in to talk about that topic until they move on to the next claim.

[Zachary Conover]

Right, right. So I. It's. It's. It's fun to watch. It's really fun to watch. And so the first claim. So the LLA makes a claim and she has to defend it essentially against one of these opponents.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Zachary Conover]

And the first claim she makes at about 37 seconds into the video is abortion leaves women scarred for life. Abortion leaves women scarred for life. Now I want to say the start of that my experience as a pastor is that goes without question.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, confirms that that goes without question.

[Zachary Conover]

I, I cannot tell you how many women I've had in front of me in all my years of ministry, all my years of being a shepherd, how many women I've had in front of me that have had multiple abortions even. And it weighs heavy and it's very, very difficult to overcome and to be able to trust the promises of God which will never change and are where our certainty is. I gotta tell you, I've known women who just deeply in love with Jesus lives just completely transformed. Some of the sweetest women ever. You'd have never known that they had this in their past. But when they get behind closed doors with a pastor, the tears start falling and you start to see that there's still a deep struggle and definitely a scar and a wound. And so I've been administered in that context many, many times. And so abortion leaves women's guard for life is the first claim. And then the first challenger comes up and here's how it goes down.

[Lila Rose]

You look awesome. Thank you. You look amazing. By your logic, I should be in that age range of people who abort, let's say, you know, who, who should be feeling the regret and everything. If I had carried a term, I would be labeled a drug addicted black mother. And if I had kept the baby, I would have been labeled a incompetent single mother.

[Zachary Conover]

So, so a couple things just, I. And I'm gonna have to forgive me everybody, just the way that YouTube works now with these videos, when it used to be you could do long form media and long reviews and not get in a lot of trouble. But like the way that YouTube does it now, you play too much of, of a clip at once and they're going to like freeze, they're going to freeze the stream and all kinds of crazy stuff. So I'm going to try to stop this as much as I can so we don't get you guys interrupted as we're watching this. It's, this is commentary to everyone watching this on YouTube staff. This is obviously fair, fair use. We're responding to content. But anyway, so I want just to make note of something and I think we all need to be, be ready to do this in this conversation. There's so much of an attempt always to suppress what is true and to self evidently true. Self evidently true. And to avoid the, the conclusions. Right. That every image bearer of God will come to in terms of something that is ethically as, as, as wrong as this. So you'll see a woman who comes up like this, and you'll see many women that come up like this and they'll try to defend their actions and they'll try their very best to use euphemisms and different language, you know, things like fetus, zygote and all that stuff. And just try to, try to do their best to soften their. Or let's just say harden their conscience. Harden their conscience.

[Jeff Coleman]

Massage it.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. And, but, but you note that you can't do it consistently. You're in God's world. You're an image bearer of God. You're a mother. You know what you did. What did she just call, what did she just call it? A baby. My baby. I think she used those terms. My baby. And so you just got to look for those opportunities because that's a suppression of truth. Right?

[Jeff Coleman]

It rears its head, it comes up for a little bit and it goes back down.

[Zachary Conover]

Right, right, right. This is nothing. This is just a clump of sales. My baby. And, and that will happen. And so what I want to say is, look, I'm not the ultimate authority in this. I'm just a fellow believer like you. I'm just trying to serve Christ and glorify God and, and do well with this. But my, my own position in moments like this is I know what God says about her. I know what God says about what she did. And I know that there's a suppression going on. And I know that she knows in her heart of hearts what she's done. So I'm always looking for moments like that to turn it into an opportunity to remove their hands from trying to hide what they know. And I also want to turn it into an opportunity to bring the gospel to her as a mother. Because she knows what she did. And I believe with all my heart this is no escaping from, from this. In her deepest and darkest moments at night that she is thinking about this, and she maybe often does. And I know that there's guilt there, I know there's shame there. And she may be trying to wave it all away or wave her hand at it, but she's not going to escape the judgment of God. And she can't escape what is so clearly evident. And so what I want to do, and I think what's Important for us to do is to try to touch that is to say something like, oh, there it is, there it is. There's the suppression pointed out. There's the image of God and you. There's what you know to be true. And I want to talk about that because I think in the end it's not about winning the debate. I want to win this woman to cr. Christ. And so I'm just looking for that moment where like it comes out so I can touch it.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right. Amen to that.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

You're looking for it for the connection point. And then also it is the best way to get to the gospel.

[Zachary Conover]

That's exactly right.

[Lila Rose]

Question for you is what is your perception of how I should feel about my abortion? So a couple things. First of all, sometimes the regret happens later in life. It's not within even five or 10 years. The trauma they feel might come out later when they have their own other children or grandchildren. So every woman, it's going to be different. Sometimes it's immediate, sometimes it takes years. I mean, I think, I think you're amazing. I think if that's what you've overcome in your life, I think that's incredible and you should be proud of overcoming so many tough things in your life. It does break my heart that if you're sharing you had an abortion, that there could be a child. I don't know how old they'd be 10 years old today who would be cheering you on, saying, go get a mom. You got.

[Zachary Conover]

So you're going to see in a moment that this, this really impacted her. Yeah. And that's, that's a powerful tool that Lila is using there to try to bring back to her remembrance what she's trying to hide. And that this was a baby, this was your child.

[Jeff Coleman]

Put it in front of her.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. You took the life of your child. Let's make sure that your child has a face. Let's make that your child, make sure your child is, is, is given some dignity. And this is what could have been the case because one of the things we say often outside the abortion mill, we, we get to say very little. And so we, we try to say, we try to even together have things memorized that are the hardest hitting.

[Jeff Coleman]

Go to the heart, maximize that window of time.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. Yeah. And so you'll hear us oftentimes saying a lot of the same things because it's the same message, same thing that's wrong out there. But we will often say to mothers, we say, you're not going to go in there. And no longer be a mother. You're going to be the mother of a dead child. Yeah, your child. And so we say that often to try to again, touch the image of God in the mom and say, you know who you are, you know what that is inside your womb. You know what you're doing. And we want to make sure that we're not letting you hide from it. And we want to try to bring that to your remembrance. So hopefully you turn from this place.

[Jeff Coleman]

It's also a way of saying, don't deceive yourself.

[Zachary Conover]

Right.

[Jeff Coleman]

You know, you're not going to leave this place. No longer how God defines you. You're no longer going to be without this child in a way that absconds you from the action that you've taken, which is a violation of his law.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lila Rose]

I can promise you that would not be the case because I can almost promise you that would not be the case because I say again, I'm in a domestic violence shelter. I've got a dog I can barely take care of. Excuse me. You're expecting me to sit here and let you tell me how I'm supposed to feel? You're trying to scare me. I'm not telling you.

[Zachary Conover]

So nothing there. No logical person would say that she's trying to scare her. Lila said nothing of the sort. Of, I. I'm sorry to hear that this woman is in a domestic violence situation. I hope that she does get all the help that she needs. But I want to say it's interesting. You look at moments like this, and she's going to talk about in a moment how she's like a proud hoe or a proud sex worker, something like that. You look at her and you say, you know, a hairstyle like that is pretty impressive. It's beautiful. And that's not cheap. You know, when you talk about things like, I can barely provide for myself, my dog, it's like, well, okay, there's a certain element of that that I fully understand, that there's financial struggles and those sorts of things, but we don't get to kill other human beings because of our plight in life. Like, take, for example, the person that is doing really well in life. They own a business, it's flourishing, it's doing fantastic. And they get maybe five years into having a child, and all of a sudden the business hits hard times and they really struggle and they get into a place where they're living, you know, fundamentally in poverty for a period of time. Do we say because you're living in poverty, that that gives you the right to take the life of your child because it's difficult or because you're having a hard time. We, we don't allow that as an excuse in the courts for a reason. And we don't allow it any of us. We would never accept that from somebody that kills her 8 year old child or her 5 year old child. We don't accept these excuses, but somehow our culture has been duped into accepting these exc. When the baby is the most vulnerable inside the safety of the mother's womb. And so these, these aren't good excuses for taking the life of your child. They're emotional reasons. But emotional arguments are only effective if they're rooted in principle. And you can appeal to emotional argumentation when it's right to do so, when it's, when it's directly attached to an ethical responsibility or an ethical principle. Like for example, you could say the Holocaust was a moral atrocity and evil and start displaying all the photos of the Holocaust victims. And you could start talking about all the evil monstrosities that occurred at Auschwitz and all the other concentration camps. And you could, you could do your best to try to impact people with the emotional weight of that. If you go to the Holocaust museum in Washington D.C. you can't, you can't help but feel the emotional weight of it. It's, it's overwhelming. So it is, it is right to appeal to the emotions in that case because you're dealing with what is in principle a moral atrocity and an evil. So dealing with the emotional argumentation when it's connected directly to an ethical principle that is unavoidable is, is a right thing to do. Dealing with emotional argumentation like this, or doing it when, when you're trying to defend the indefensible is not an attractive form of argumentation and it shouldn't be compelling to anybody. What we need to do is say, okay. What she's saying is that financially I'm not doing well and my life is hard and I can't pay for things, okay? So we go, oh, I guess maybe you should have killed your child. And it's like, no, no. You're talking about the unjustified taking of human life. You cannot use that argumentation to say I, and, and therefore I ought to have been able to kill my child. Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

The only thing I would add to that is the question that she did ask her. The way it was worded, what is your perception of how I should feel after doing this? Action is a way, interesting way to word It, I think, honestly, if I was talking to this woman, like the appropriate response that anyone should feel when they take another human life in an unjustified manner, they should feel a sense of guilt. It is very real thing to try to avert your eyes or what you're describing, to try to defend the indefensible or to euphemize it out of existence when confronting the reality of this, in fact, was a shameful thing that you did. So the emotional response should be the conviction of your conscience. And again, that gives me an opportunity to get this woman to the gospel because now we've acknowledged that this is a violation of God's law and there's accountability for that because God is a righteous judge and he's not going to overlook that offense. So the proper. So in a sense, yes, the, the fear that you should feel is coming face to face with your maker.

[Zachary Conover]

Very good.

[Jeff Coleman]

That should be the appropriate response tied to the condition of your heart.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. Very good.

[Lila Rose]

You are. Yes. You're not telling how to vote with your statistics, but I am telling you that your baby, your statistics and more information. With your statistics, autistic and your information, maybe she had a right to live. You are completely wrong because. Yes. And I wish someone had been helping you. Listen, that's the other thing. Listen. But you weren't the best. Everybody always likes to say, oh, keep the baby, give it up for adoption. I know what our foster care system is like. But. But when you. But you can't tell me. I would have a child cheering me on. When you place a child for adoption. Hold on, you're not going to foster. You don't get to speak for my child. You don't get to speak for my child. Let's start right there. You don't get to speak for my child saying, oh, mommy would be cheering you on. Everything like that. You don't know that. You don't know that at all. You don't.

[Jeff Coleman]

It's important part.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

I just say one thing and then kick it over to you.

[Zachary Conover]

No, it's fine.

[Jeff Coleman]

It's the question of authority that's really what's behind this. Who do you. Who are you to get to tell me what I can do or that this was the right thing that I ought to have done? This was the appropriate moral response to this situation of being pregnant, faced with life or death decision. I'm deciding either my child lives or my child dies. Who are you to get to tell me what to do with my body?

[Zachary Conover]

And.

[Jeff Coleman]

And I think we have to be Honest with that as Christians and say, I have no right outside of that which God gives me in his word. It's tied to his authority. God gets to be the one to tell you what to do because he created you. He made you in his image. You're accountable to him. You're not accountable to me. I'm just telling you what he says.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah, very good. There's the authority. Not my authority. Yours also. Note again, who are you to speak for. What did she say?

[Jeff Coleman]

My child.

[Zachary Conover]

My child. So you already have an acknowledgment. She knows her baby. My child. She knows what she did. She knows what is inescapable for all of us. Also note, Lila was having a hard time there getting a word in edgewise because she was so fired up. And I think that, of course, that is revealing to probably what's going on in our own conscience. But when she talks about, you know, putting the child up for adoption, and she says, I know what the foster care system is like. When you put a child up for adoption privately, the child doesn't go into foster care. Lila makes a good point. She tries to say it, and the woman doesn't really allow her to say it. When. When a woman decides to give up her child via private adoption, you don't dump the child off into foster care. That's. That's not why that exists. And I've adopted three children, and they never were in foster care. How'd that work out? Because it was a. It was two women who decided, I can't care for my child. I do not want to murder my child, and so I want to place my child. And that's how it took place. And everyone to foster care. They went directly into my care. I had a possession of my girls while they were in the NICU for two, over two months in Wisconsin, and they never once went into foster care. And that's an important note to make. So when someone says that, you know, I know the foster care system's like. It's. It's like, okay, a, that's not where they go. And. And B, you're showing a lot of concern for children in foster care. How come those kids. How come those kids get so much concern or attention from you? Like, foster care system is terrible. These kids are really suffering there. So we care about children suffering when they're in foster care, but not when they're in the safety of your own womb. And so we'll do a couple more seconds of this. Here we go. What?

[Lila Rose]

My child. I may not even have my child because I was so unfit at the time. Drug addiction, sex work, everything like that. Yes, I'm a proud pro.

[Zachary Conover]

Ho.

[Lila Rose]

That is exactly what I do. But you're telling me how my child would feel. And what gives you the right? I would give you the right. What gives you the right? I would love to respond to you. I would love to respond to you. I think, yes, your. Your child had a right to life. And I would say that there are. I wish there were more people helping you at the time. It sounds like you were at a really rough time in your life, and I think that you mattered, that baby mattered, and you both deserved more help. That's what I would say.

[Zachary Conover]

Very good, Lila. That was excellent. Yeah, because like we were talking about earlier, one of the things that people are often tempted to do and situations like this is to engage in flattery. I think everyone feels that. And. But at the same time, there's a lot in the proverbs about. About the right words and. And speaking sweet words, a word fitly spoken. Exactly.

[Jeff Coleman]

Apples of gold.

[Zachary Conover]

We're actually about to get to that in proverbs right now.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right on. I can't wait.

[Zachary Conover]

In communication and. And how do we communicate in such a way that the Proverbs tells you, like, and there's a number of ways it gets at the point, but you. You need to be used the right words and. And to be able to say things that bless people and lift people up while you're trying to convince them. Right. It's. It's right to do that. But we also don't want to lie to people.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Zachary Conover]

So here Lila is not flattering. Lila is telling the truth about her child and herself and saying that. I would have hoped that you got more help. That's a beautiful thing, Lila. You did a wonderful job. If you see this. Super blessed by this, this. This moment. And you held yourself together, Lila, very well here in this moment. Yeah, tough moment. She was obviously, obviously very upset. And. And that's. That's not something that everyone can do. There's a lot. You can't do it in that way, Lila. So great job communicating that way. So next one is, abortion cannot be justified. Abortion cannot be justified under any circumstances.

[Jeff Coleman]

The second claim.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah, that's the second claim that Lila has to defend now against an opponent. Abortion cannot be justified under any circumstance. And if you guys want to go look at this later, this clip is about 23 minutes in. And here we go.

[Lila Rose]

So what is an abortion, in your view?

[Zachary Conover]

One sec, I gotta finish my Point.

[Lila Rose]

Okay.

[Zachary Conover]

What I will say is the rights.

[Jeff Coleman]

Of people's bodily autonomy is something that supersedes the preservation of life, especially when it comes to the government enforcement of that.

[Lila Rose]

Do I have a right as a.

[Jeff Coleman]

Can't just jump over that. This guy is very sharp, and by that I mean quick to respond. However, think about what he just said. The right to someone's bodily autonomy supersedes the right of the government to preserve human life. Or maybe he didn't use government, but I'm going to use it because it expands out from there to the duties contained within the different spheres of authority. Right. The different governments that God has indicated. But think about that for a second. I would just simply ask him, is that a standard that he believes should apply to him? That the right of someone else's autonomy to do what they want with their body in terms of bringing him physical harm supersedes the right for someone to intervene to protect him on his behalf?

[Zachary Conover]

It's self contradictory.

[Jeff Coleman]

He would never adopt that standard for himself. Why? Because he wants his life protected.

[Zachary Conover]

Right.

[Jeff Coleman]

But he won't extend that same right and that same protection that he enjoys to the child in the womb.

[Zachary Conover]

And that's just the point. We often say that in the abortion debate, these people draw, are drawing. They're totally inconsistent. They're wholly inconsistent. But they draw a circle around themselves in their group and they have standards that work for them. Yeah, but they just will not apply the same standards. It's partiality and it's unequal weights, but they won't apply the same standards to this particular group.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Zachary Conover]

Now that problem is germane in human history, period. Sure, it's often ethnicity versus ethnicity, nation versus nation, some subjective factor. Yeah, you could again, we oftentimes bring up what is so close to the hearts of most Americans is you can bring up the issue of slavery in America or the Holocaust, where we all recognize instantly. Oh, I get it, yeah. So you have one class drew a circle, said, we will dominate the Jews, we will throw them away, we will abuse them, we will cause harm to them and we throw them away. So what? What works for us in terms of human rights doesn't work for these other humans over here. Same thing was done in with the issue of slavery here in America or anywhere in the west that it took place or even still takes place to this day is you have a class of people that draw a circle around themselves and they say, but you technically are human, but we can oppress you, we can harm you. And one note to make is that when somebody in this debate brings up bodily autonomy, it's an. It's an amazing opportunity to seize because you cannot make bodily autonomy arguments consistently if you're going to say but not them. Right. So the moment the person brings up bodily autonomy, you've won. Okay. In terms of, in terms of the ground you stand on, they have now fallen off the cliff and you are standing on a solid rock. Because if you argue that human beings have bodily autonomy, then you have to recognize, and it's a biblical fact, obviously, but also biological fact, that what's in the womb. Womb is human from fertilization. So that's a human. And. And she's a human. Human, human. And if bodily autonomy works for us, then it's bodily autonomy for her and bodily autonomy for the baby inside the womb. If human beings have bodily autonomy, then stick to it, stay consistent. And that's one of the things that you need to seize on immediately is when someone says bodily autonomy, go. Great. So you. So you do believe. You could say like this. So you do believe that human beings ought to have bodily autonomy. They're immediately going to say, absolutely. Great. Does it count for the human being in the womb? No. Okay, so you don't believe in bodily autonomy. Yeah, not for everybody.

[Jeff Coleman]

Either all humans have it or you're deciding who gets it and who does it based on your own preference.

[Zachary Conover]

There you go. And there's the unequal weights and measures. There's the partiality to kill my child. So I think there are two ways that we determine what rights are in a society.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right. It's either we all have rights and then we decide as a society that.

[Zachary Conover]

There are some actions that we need to restrict just because we live in a social world, or we have no rights and we just have the grace of the government that grants us some rights.

[Lila Rose]

I have a question.

[Zachary Conover]

What I would start is I think that we do have all rights. I think that we restrict things that would be so.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right. It's where these come from.

[Zachary Conover]

Right, right. Where this come from. Now when he makes the point that, you know, essentially we have these. We have these rights and we have these, these things. But because we live in a social community, then we have to penalize certain things. Yeah, the restrict certain things because we're social animals of social community. When you have a worldview that is bankrupt and you are not standing on the rock of God's word, you're building your life on sand, your philosophy on sand, your ethical system on sands, then all you really have is that to some degree now there's different ways that you can, you can flesh it out. Philosophers and ethicists have fleshed out in different ways whether, whether it's like Bentham's utilitarianism, you know, what works out for the greatest happiness of the most people.

[Jeff Coleman]

Exactly. Whatever the case, utopian vis. Vision of harmony.

[Zachary Conover]

There's some, there's some way that people try to create an ethical standard that ends up being arbitrary and completely subjective in the first place. But it, it does, it all leads to this, this core issue of. Because we're a social community, social animals, and we need to be able to, to reflect that and live together in harmony. But you might want to say to that, who says we should live together in harmony?

[Jeff Coleman]

Right. That's the question.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. Who says like that, that's, that is a presuppositional commitment that just can't be granted. Don't just give it away because the unbeliever, the right to that capital, they're not supposed to be using that capital in the conversation because honestly. But. Well, just because we're a social community, so we have to punish certain things. We can't allow certain things. Really. What things?

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah.

[Zachary Conover]

And who cares that we're a social community and social animals? Who says we're supposed to actually abide by that or even care, as I often say, because I think it's the best way to say it. Like my friend says, why don't we just kerosene the whole ant hill. Yeah. Burn the whole dang thing to the ground. Who says that I ought not to do that? And that's really all they've got. Well, we really ought to do this because otherwise things are going to go to hell in a hand basket. Right. And so what? Well, you know, people don't like to, to harm other people and they don't like to done to them. There's a lot of people in prisons right now all across this country that really enjoyed inflicting harm on other people. There's a lot of guys that like to do it.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah.

[Zachary Conover]

And, and what's your argument against them? And so I just wanted to point that out in terms of an ethical system. When someone says, well, you know, certain things you have to restrict because we're a social community and we have to work together. It's like, no, we have to work together and which things we ought we to restrict.

[Jeff Coleman]

That's the, that's the distinction. Pointing out what we are does not give you a justification for how we ought to treat each other.

[Zachary Conover]

Another way to say that too, in terms of utilitarianism, someone says, you know, people don't like pain, and so we ought not to inflict pain. Well, what you're talking about is a nervous system. There. Like, it. It happens to be the case that human beings don't like harm inflicted on them. But because. Just because it is the case that human beings don't like it doesn't mean that I ought not to do it.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, they don't like a different neurological response. It's not wrong.

[Zachary Conover]

They don't like it. Okay, you're stating the case. Human beings don't like pain. It doesn't mean that I ought not inflict it. Right. You see, you can't. You can't get something like, this is the case. So now it ought to be the case. It's like, no, no, hold on. I know that human beings don't like pain. You know, animals don't like pain as well. One thing, I don't know why. I clicked on one video recently, and now I'm getting bombarded with them, and I can't stop watching. The algorithm's just feeding it. So it's. It's like people. It's like animals in the wilderness. And I just keep. Every day, these videos keep coming up of, like, lions attacking, like, I didn't.

[Jeff Coleman]

Know I needed these.

[Zachary Conover]

Or, you know, lions attacking, you know, huge water buffaloes and eating them. And it's just, wow. But some of them are, like, super sad. Like the other day I was watching one and it was. Oh, man, a Komodo dragon. A huge one. Komodo dragon eating a baby goat. Eating a baby goat. And the baby goat was crying. Sounded like a human crying while it's, like, swallowing this. This goat. And August is five years old, and he hears this thing crying on my phone. So he comes over and he looks, and I'm trying to, like, you know, sort of break it to him, like, the cycle of life and, you know, all those things, but it was horrifying. And this thing's in a lot of pain. The goat, the baby goat didn't like what was happening to it.

[Jeff Coleman]

Okay, that's what we call the riot and not the dance.

[Zachary Conover]

There you go. Okay, so people don't like pain. All right? That is the case. It doesn't give you a moral ought. But he wants the moral art. Yeah. But his system cannot account for it. And that's just. That's just, I think, an important philosophical thing to point out. If you want to get deeper in discussion with a guy like this, that's very sharp. He's on his toes. He's able to respond quickly. He's just dumping a lot of stuff out. Watch for the borrowed capital. Watch for the borrowed capital. And make sure that you point out, now, you're not really supposed to have that in your system. Like that sounds very Christian, that there are things that we ought not to do, moral responsibilities and obligations that are objective and are the standard. That's a Christian thing. I think you're arguing in the Christian world view right now, and you're borrowing capital that doesn't belong to you. So you should, you should stop stealing because that's also a sin in God's eyes.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right? Necessary and bad.

[Zachary Conover]

I wouldn't count somebody's rights to their own bodily autonomy as something that we need to respect.

[Lila Rose]

So it sounds like you're making the argument that dependency means that a mother should have the child to end the life. Should have the right to end the life of her child.

[Jeff Coleman]

I would say dependency because I'm sure.

[Lila Rose]

The child's dependent on her body. Right, that's what I'm saying.

[Zachary Conover]

I'm assuming you're going to go into.

[Jeff Coleman]

Like a toddler's dependent in order to be fed by their parents.

[Lila Rose]

A newborn is totally dependent on their parents.

[Zachary Conover]

But it doesn't rely.

[Lila Rose]

We can never end the life of a newborn.

[Zachary Conover]

I know, but it doesn't rely on.

[Jeff Coleman]

The specific bodily functions of the.

[Lila Rose]

It only relies on the functions.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah.

[Zachary Conover]

Yes, it absolutely does.

[Jeff Coleman]

That was just a sloppy statement.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. I was up this morning at 6:00am and I got. I got. I got a five year old in bed. He's asleep. And I got two little girls. When are they now? Sixteen, seventeen months now? They're seventeen, eighteen months now at this point. And I hear them every morning just squawking for daddy. By the way, Piper's now saying dada.

[Jeff Coleman]

Nice.

[Zachary Conover]

Which is awesome. Piper's got cerebral palsy and she's developmentally delayed, but she's doing really, really well. Nora is just a spicy, hilarious little firecracker. But every morning when it's time, they're laying there in their cribs in their bedroom, and all I hear is Dada, Dada. And like. And then I hear just squawking and squealing and Nora cackling, laughing. And I have to go in there and I pick them up, both of them, and. Which is not easy to do, by.

[Jeff Coleman]

The way, twin girls and because they're dependent upon your.

[Zachary Conover]

What would happen to escape. What would happen if like my wife, something happened to Candy or myself in the house, and we. We died. We're inaccessible to them.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Zachary Conover]

And it's six or seven in the morning. Piper and Nora are gonna be laying there in their crib completely incapable of taking care of themselves. And so when he says, like, there, at that age, whether it's newborns, infants, toddlers, whatever the case may be, at that age, they're not dependent upon your bodily functions, I assure you, all my bodily functions were active this morning at 6am when I went to go pick them up out of their cribs to make their bottles, to feed them their bottles, to change them and to feed them their meal in the morning. All my bodily functions were being used at that point. And someone says, well, but it wasn't in your womb. It's like, where's the standard here? My body's being used to care for these, These infants now? Or is it. What are they, toddlers now? When do you say toddler? I forget which.

[Jeff Coleman]

Which part you say toddler when they're toddling behind you.

[Zachary Conover]

O toddlers. And so you see this. They draw these ar. They are drawing these arbitrary lines constantly arbitrary lines, because they can.

[Jeff Coleman]

You see that several times throughout the discussion, like, 22 weeks, you know, it's, you know.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah, it's indefensible position. It's always an arbitrary line being drawn.

[Jeff Coleman]

It's like, well, someone has a different beginning point for when life's valuable and.

[Zachary Conover]

We have to point out, don't miss it, when someone uses the dependence dependency arguments for advocating for the unjust taking of human life in the womb. We go in and out of the dependency our entire lives. I mean, there have been moments in my life in the last. When did it happen? Let's say the last 10 years where something weird happened in my life. No, nothing in my family, nothing genetically, none of that stuff. All of a sudden had a seizure, and I think I had two more seizures after that. And I can tell you, I assure you, I'm. I'm. I'm in my 40s when this happened. I believe I was 40. And. And I can tell you that when it happened, and for like a day or two later, I was completely dependent on other human beings. And. And I gotta tell you, I don't know what happened to me. Apparently I was in a really bad way when the first one hit me. There's blood all over the floor. I fell out in my kitchen and just blood all over the floor. No one knew what was going on with me because it's never happened me before. It's not even my family history. And so everyone thought I was joking until they saw the blood pouring out of my head. And I can tell you that I was told by the doctors that, you know, it's a good thing that people were there with me and that they were able to get to me in time. Now, thankfully, they figured out what it was. It was. It was some toxicity thing, and it, you know, not gonna happen again. But I was dependent even then on other human beings there. And then guess what? We're gonna get older, all of us, Lord willing, and we get to the end of the life. What happens at that point? Totally dependent upon other human beings for survival. So the dependency argument is bootleg. It's completely bankrupt. It doesn't work. Dependency, you know, I can kill this human being because it's dependent upon me. Okay, well, then don't. Don't prosecute the woman who turned around and shot her two kids in the chest because she said they were becoming a burden to her. She didn't want them to be dependent upon her anymore. She didn't want to care for them anymore. So these dependency arguments are just terrible. Yeah. Well, no, because you can opt out, you can give that to the newborn baby.

[Lila Rose]

Relies on the functions of other adults for sure, but it doesn't have to.

[Jeff Coleman]

Do with that biological mother. The mother can't put it up for adoption if they don't have the means in order to change.

[Lila Rose]

So what you're saying. Let me make sure I say it back to you. You're saying the biological mother has the right to end the life of her biological child, but somebody else who's not biologically connected could end the life of a young child that's totally dependent on them physically?

[Zachary Conover]

No, I wouldn't say that.

[Lila Rose]

Then what are you saying?

[Zachary Conover]

Well, you like to go into a lot of biology. Do you know what an FMT is?

[Lila Rose]

Tell me.

[Jeff Coleman]

So it's a fecal microbacterial transfusion.

[Zachary Conover]

It's necessary for people who don't have.

[Jeff Coleman]

Proper intestinal responses for immune disorders.

[Zachary Conover]

And what it is is basically a.

[Jeff Coleman]

Transfusion of someone else's feces into that person.

[Zachary Conover]

What's funny to me.

[Lila Rose]

Interesting.

[Zachary Conover]

What's funny to me is we don't enforce people in order to, like, collect their own poop in order to preserve life. So it's funny that we protect the sanctity of. Of people's poop over people's wombs and uterus. Like, you know what non sequitur is, right? Something that doesn't logically follow. Well, that could be written in a book of logical fallacies and something does that does not logically follow whatsoever.

[Jeff Coleman]

I think looking at the, the next, we want to look at the, the next claim there at the 43 minute mark.

[Zachary Conover]

The which one? When does personhood begin? We just did that one.

[Jeff Coleman]

Every unborn child has the right to Life. So the third claim, and then at the 43 minute mark.

[Zachary Conover]

There you go. Okay, so this is the claim is every unborn child has the right to life at 43 minutes. Great.

[Jeff Coleman]

No one wanted to touch that one. Nice to meet you.

[Lila Rose]

What's your name?

[Jeff Coleman]

Adam.

[Lila Rose]

Adam, nice to meet you.

[Jeff Coleman]

Likewise. So when you say a child, I feel like you're kind of like preemptively loading the prompt with a lot of emotions. A child implies a person. And I don't believe personhood begins until around 22 weeks of gestation, when, if you want to get into neuroscience, the thalamus connects to the cortex and the brain finally has a capacity to support a subjective experience. So why do you think that a fetus at 10 weeks, eight weeks, for example, that has no capacity to be self aware, to experience pain or anything else should be valued equal to the bodily autonomy of a woman?

[Lila Rose]

Okay, so a few questions.

[Jeff Coleman]

Is it objectively true that what constitutes personhood is a subjective experience? That would be my question. Because these people appear to value the scientific biological reality. You know, they're making claims like, you know, this is the science, this is the biology. This side of the argument claims to be the side of science. And then you give them the scientific reality that from fertilization, this is a unique human being. That is the beginning point for human life. That's what we're tying it to. We're tying it to the biological reality. Yes, we observe that. But God's word also states that there's conception when he makes us all. He knits us all together in our mother's womb, the Bible says, and then there's the moment in which we're born.

[Zachary Conover]

Right?

[Jeff Coleman]

But he presides over our life at every stage of our development. He's there at the very beginning, from the moment of conception. But it's just interesting to me, you hear this kind of argumentation from the pro abortion advocacy groups that there's a distinction between a human and a person. So yes, it's human, we'll grant that. But it's not valuable enough for us to protect yet. It will be now, once it reaches 22 weeks and it earns the right of Personhood, then we will give it protection. Once it has hit this arbitrary line, then we will bring the weight of law around it to guard its life. Well, why, why this? Oh, well, because that's when it has a subjective experience. Well, that's a subjective answer. Why, why this measure? Why are you bringing it here? Or why is it that some abortion advocates say, no, it's not valuable till birth, till it actually exits the birth canal? Again, this is not scientific argumentation. Here's the point. It's religious argumentation.

[Zachary Conover]

Talk about that.

[Jeff Coleman]

They have a religious foundation for why they're saying this. Because they don't value the child in the womb. And religion is based on what you value. Your value system will be based on your ultimate religious commitment. Yeah, that's the point that I just want to point out with this. Like, they have a view of the human body that devalues the human body, that really splits who we are materially from our immaterial aspect of ourselves, right? They see that as the ultimate right, your immaterial, your spiritual nature, whatever, that's what's truly valuable. And you don't get that till this, until you cross this threshold. And that could be any arbitrary point that they designate. And he even uses the analogy the person driving the car, right? If there's no one in the car, then you don't protect it because it's just the car. So what he's saying implicitly is that your body has zero value. Who you are as worthy of protection only is tied to your immaterial essence. Right? It's the ghost in the machine, right? Whereas the biblical worldview says, no, who you are materially and immaterial together is the image of God and worthy of protecting from conception.

[Zachary Conover]

There you go, one more point, then on to the next one. Here, very important. When somebody makes these arguments and draws lines in the developmental line of a human being and says, well, when. And when they're capable of feeling pain, or when they have a heartbeat, or when the neurons correct in just the appropriate way to where they, They're. They have the ability to have certain cognitive function, those sorts of things. That's. That's the line I draw. Well, it's interesting because at each point you can demonstrate you don't really believe that about a human being. You don't believe that that's what makes them valuable, are worthy of protection. And just use his example as, as a point of contact when he says, well, at 22 weeks, this is where you have things connected in an appropriate way. So they have the capacity for a subjective experience or thought processes, blah, blah. Okay, great. Okay. So that's what makes us human beings worthy of protection. When you have just the right functioning of the human brain and the right capacities or abilities. Great. Okay, let's see if you really believe that. So later on in life, let's say somebody gets to say, 47 years old, my age, and let's say they develop some sort of a disease or they get into some sort of accident, something happens to them physically. So now they have lost, let's say they're in a coma and they've lost the actual capacity to have that subjective experience or to be able to have certain cognitive functions. Question. Can we then say, well, we already drew the line. We already said, like, if you don't have this capacity or these capabilities that you're not worthy of protection as a human being. Can we then say to all the people who are in hospitals right now across this country, well, you have now lost the capacity for this subjective experience we think is important as a human being. So we should just go ahead and have someone running through the hospital rooms and just stabbing human beings to death or mutilating them or cutting their bodies into pieces. And someone says, well, that's crazy. Well, that's what's happening in abortion. There's a lot of cutting going on, a lot of breaking, a lot of tearing and those sorts of things. We are doing that to human beings. And if we say, well, it's only because we haven't got to the capacity or the ability to think in a proper cognitive fashion that we think is important so we can do that to them, it's like, great, well, let's move that down the line. It happens to people at 10 years old, 12 years old, 25 years old, 45 years old, 55 years old. It's a fallen world. Accidents happen and disease and sickness happens and people oftentimes slip out of the ability to have these capacities. All kinds of things take place in the brain. And so do we then say, well, you've lost your ability to have the subjective experience and to have these cognitive functions. And so because you don't have the capacity any longer, we can therefore kill you. Nobody believes that because the line is arbitrary and he doesn't believe it in the first place. The truth is he believes it for the human beings in the womb. He doesn't really believe that standard for human beings outside of the womb, including, I would imagine, himself. And that's the point.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah, there's so many questions you could ask like, okay, prior to 22 weeks, what is the objective basis that you can measure a subjective experience? How would you even know that the baby in the womb is having one or not?

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

How do you define this if they are dreaming? Well, how do you measure that if they are moving? Okay, well, how much movement constitutes a subjective experience? Like, you could go so many layers with this and point out how arbitrary it is.

[Zachary Conover]

And that's why the consistent position that shows no partiality and it is unassailable is you simply put it where God puts it.

[Jeff Coleman]

Exactly.

[Zachary Conover]

Is image of God, human being. That's it. Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

There's no such thing as a human non person.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

If you're a human, you're a person.

[Zachary Conover]

And that's why the Christian worldview is the foundation and grounding for justice, equal justice in society. Because the. The Christian worldview says we are not just animals, we are uniquely created by God. We are in the image of God. And every single, single human being is from the same parents. We're all part of the one human family. We are all imago dei. No matter where you're at on that spectrum of humanity and where you've grown up or which culture you're from, there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek. We're all one in Christ. Jesus is one of the glories of the gospel. But the Christian worldview has this, this root of justice for human beings because it just simply equal, equal in the eyes of God. And why? Well, not because of a particular capacity, not because of a particular ability. I mean, human beings, some human beings are spectacular in their abilities and some not so spectacular. Some people have learning disabilities and some people have special needs and those sorts of things. And so, but, but like, okay, great, great example here. Great, great example here. Just with my daughters, because I'm sitting in the midst of it every single day. I've never had to experience in this my life. It's like a first, it's like a learning experience for my entire family. For my wife and I in particular. I got twin girls, both two. Two girls born at 29 weeks in an EQ in Wisconsin. And the two of them, Nora is running around like crazy, climbing over things. She's got just this pretty expansive vocabulary. She is really interactive. She's super strong. Jumps, plays, spins. It just. She's nut nuts. She's hilarious. She's seriously got the most amazing sense of humor at such a small age. But Piper has a lot of deficiencies physically. She is really developmentally behind and she had. She can't walk or crawl yet. So, like, while Nora's running and jumping and climbing up on couches, Piper's rolling like a barrel to get where she wants to go. Like, she has learned to basically work around her disability and just if she wants something on the side of the room, she just literally rolls like a barrel to get to it. And we're working a lot for her, pray for her. But. But what's amazing is that Nora is way advanced in terms of capabilities and Piper is way behind. But they're both, even in the eyes of the law, equally valuable, equally worthy of protection. But you're like one is deficient in many, many ways, even cognitively right now. A very, very, very far, far behind. But what makes them both equal is who they are as human beings in the eyes of God. These are image bearers of God. So I think that's important for us to point out. The Christian worldview has a grounding for meaning, value, dignity, worth, protection. And that's very simply image of God. Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

And it's the same for everybody.

[Zachary Conover]

Same for everybody. All right, let's do.

[Jeff Coleman]

When I move to the next. Yeah, so this topic there, I really want to get to the abortion is unconstitutional and should be.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. That's where we're at right now. So we'll do. We've banned abortion in pro life states. Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

And then we can jump ahead a minute or two.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. We've banned abortion in pro life states.

[Lila Rose]

Hello. What's your name? Sariah. Sariah, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. Okay, so I'm. I'm not really massively into debating. I'd honestly just rather hear your opinion. Thanks for being here 100%. Yeah. Because it is a complex issue and I. I absolutely see the value of your side. I do. I'm just curious then, if we ban it, how does that play out? Like, how does that look then? Let's say we ban it today. What does the next year, five years look like? It's a really good question. It's one we think and talk about all the time. And in pro life states, it's ones that they're wrestling with. Right. Because they banned abortion in many states in this country already. And it looks like a few things. First of all.

[Zachary Conover]

Unfortunately, that's not true. That's one of the things we'd love to have a sit down with Lila about because she is such a benefit in many ways to this discussion. But.

[Jeff Coleman]

And you can tell, I mean, she's incredibly kind, very gracious, accommodating. Unassuming.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah, but abortion.

[Jeff Coleman]

Incorrect.

[Zachary Conover]

It's, it's incorrect. Abortion is not banned in any state in this union. Not in one. Not one. And I recognize of course, that there is a, an aspect of abortion that has been criminalized in, in a number of states in America in terms of abortion mills not operating and those sorts of things. But unfortunately, Lila, and I'm sure you're aware of the, the issues here, the pro life establishment, the pro life industry, has actually helped to make sure that abortion is not banned in any state in our union. And that is to say that even in the laws where they've written to criminalize abortion to a certain degree with abortion mills and abortion doctors and those sorts of things, they actually have written into their laws, their pro life laws that abortion, these, these law, this shall not apply to the mother. And so right now in this nation, abortion is not banned anywhere in terms of. Women can still in any state in this union do a DIY abortion. And they do it with the full approval of the pro life establishment because the pro life establishment believes that, that mothers who willingly take the life of their children in the womb are themselves victims and that they should be able to do it with impunity, that is to say, no punishment under, under the law, and immunity, the legal protection of the law. And so that is a major failing of the pro life establishment and a, a doctrinal problem in the establishment itself. And so unfortunately, it's not true. There's not a single state in the union that has an actual abortion ban. It's not abolished in anywhere in this nation, not in any state. And so that's why we're working for equal protection in every single state because it would make it a criminal act across the board and make sure that there's equal protection.

[Lila Rose]

So you gotta double down on resources for women. There are a lot of resources that exist, but sometimes women don't know that they exist and that there's people that want to help them. A lot of women don't know, for example, that with adoption that there are literally over a million couples who would want to adopt a newborn baby and you can actually pick and choose the couple that would adopt. You can pick and choose how much involved you want to be in that child's life if you choose adoption or if you choose parenting, that there are a lot of organizations that want to help. In California, there are hundreds of pregnancy resource centers that provide free confidential care to women before and after birth. People need to know that this stuff exists so that they can get the help that they deserve. I don't. I don't actually disagree with that. I'm more. And then also educated on the trauma of abortion, the harm abortion. I think that's also part of what's important. Kind of like to balance it out.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Lila Rose]

Because right now it's very much like a, I guess, abortion centric narrative where it's like, that's the way to go. So you kind of want to balance it off by saying, hey, actually there's an alternate way of doing things. Exactly. What I'm more curious about is abortions will continue to happen. You probably agree with that, even if there's a ban. Yes, there will be. And that's the thing with any ban of anything. Anything. There will be still some illegal activity or things that happen.

[Zachary Conover]

Do you want.

[Jeff Coleman]

That's good. They're getting to the legal discussion.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

Because as soon as you say ban, we understand what that means. We understand that there's a law tied to this activity, restricting it. In our case, what's been the case in the United States for the past 50 years is regulating it.

[Zachary Conover]

Right.

[Jeff Coleman]

So regulating this activity. But we're talking about the criminalization aspect. We're talking about outlawing the practice. That's what we're moving towards in the discussion where Lila was coming at it from, okay, here's the support for the woman, here's the resources she needs, the knowledge and all this. But what she's getting at. Okay, this is an activity that will still happen. So legally, how do you treat it?

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. Moving forward. And this is one of the common arguments used against the bills of equal protection and abolishing and criminalizing abortion in this nation. And states across the nation. People will often say, you know, you can criminalize us all you want. People are still going to do it. To which we would say that's the case with everything that's on the books as a crime. Murder is against the law, and it's a criminal act. But are people still murdering other human beings today? Yes, they still do. And that we recognize that. That that law acts as a calling force in society. It calls out the temptation and. And even sometimes the opportunity because people are too fearful of the law and punishment to do it. And so, of course, you know, for example, kidnapping and enslaving people is against the law in this nation. It's a crime in this nation. But every single day in this nation, there is the. There's this problem of sex trafficking and sex slavery, kidnapping and enslaving people to do. To. To do Sex acts. And so that's something that's still taking place today. But so do we. Do we then say because it's still going to happen, that we should just go ahead and not criminalize it or ban it? Of course, we all recognize. No, we actually maybe need to get a little harder on this. We all recognize that like, okay, we're definitely not the solution to say let's, let's decriminalize this because people are doing it anyways.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah.

[Zachary Conover]

We say, you know, maybe ought to do is actually make work on the penology. The penalties. Maybe the penalties aren't strong enough to actually work as, as a stronger force against the temptation to do this thing. Like for example, you guys have heard me, I think, I think. Did I say it last week on last week's show? I said, you know, if we would actually increase the penalties to adjust penalty for the issue of like pedophilia and child molestation, if we would increase the penalties for that into a just standard. It would have a dramatic effect, I believe, on the issue. On that issue in particular. Or rape. Or rape. Is it going to stop it all together? No. We live in a fallen world. People are going to be sinful and do horrible evil atrocities. But we recognize that God gives us this law and gives us the government as a sort of justice to protect and preserve the righteous and to actually. To prohibit people from the temptation to actually go and do these evil things.

[Jeff Coleman]

Yeah.

[Zachary Conover]

So.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Zachary Conover]

And how much more should I play from here? Should I just jump to the next clip or so?

[Jeff Coleman]

It's an hour 15 and 20 seconds, which is the discussion on criminalization. 115 and 20 seconds.

[Zachary Conover]

And that's okay. Here we go. That was the next part. Here we go.

[Lila Rose]

Yes, there will be. And that's the thing with any ban of anything. Anything. Yeah. There will be still some illegal activity or things that. How do you want to address that? Well, I think that we need to work on helping women. Never choose that, you know, as much as we can, we'll still choose it. For those, for those that do, I would definitely say make sure that they get good medical care. Because at the end of the day, abortion is dangerous. Whether it's legal or illegal. Abortion hurts women. The ones that choose to get abortions, there needs to be, I think, good medical care for women. And especially I'm more curious about like, because if it's a ban, then it's illegal. So are you asking who should be criminalized? I guess, yeah. Do you think that it should be criminalized? I think the abortionists should absolutely be criminalized 100%. The doctor. The doctor or the person that, that's selling abortions. Yes.

[Jeff Coleman]

Maybe we could just ask one question of Lila. I'm sure that she's considered this. I'm positive. What about when the woman is acting as her own abortionist?

[Zachary Conover]

Right.

[Jeff Coleman]

Self managed abortion.

[Zachary Conover]

Right.

[Jeff Coleman]

And I know that she is a tremendous advocate for trying to criminalize the abortion pill and make that inaccessible, which, again, you have to respect the intent and her heart's desire behind wanting to help and protect women. It's admirable. But we're talking about the conduct and the issue itself. Right. Not the instrument by which the act is carried out. We're talking about the conduct that leads to the crime.

[Zachary Conover]

Right.

[Jeff Coleman]

That is what needs to get dealt with. And if the woman is acting as her own abortionist, then by logical necessity, she would be an actor in this conduct and she would need to face the same legal proceedings as anyone else who participates with her in that conduct.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. And Lila does believe this is a unique human being. She does believe that it's worthy of protection in the womb from fertilization. She does affirm that and believe that. But I think we need to recognize that there are no abortion doctors running around neighborhoods in the, this nation looking for children to kill. No. No abortionist is walking around with their tools in neighborhoods looking to kill babies. Babies are brought to abortionists by women who solicit them. And they are, they are actively looking for the person to assassinate their child. And, and Lila has enough experience in this, and I think even in this, this encounter right here with women making it very clear they know exactly what's in their womb. Oh, you're about to see that they know exactly what they're doing. Lila knows that. And so we're talking about women who do this willingly with malice aforethought. They know what they're doing. And yes, the courts, when you talk about murder cases, different degrees of, of, of manslaughter and those sorts of things. Homicide, there are varying degrees in terms of like, was it, was it an accident? Did you have full intent? Those sort of things are all answered in the court. But regardless, these women know that I'm doing this and doing with malice aforethoughts. And so in that case, if we're going to be consistent and we're going to not show partiality and have equal weights and measures, if we're going to do that, then we'd have to say, of course, if we criminalize abortion and abolish it and we give equal protection to all humans in the womb. Then anybody involved, whether the woman, whether it's the man, whether it's the abortionist, the. The nursing assistants, all that stuff. Stuff. Anybody involved in the unjustified taking of human life is worthy of punishment. Now, to which degree kind of depends on where they're at in the chain and what their involvement was. And that's what the courts deal with. That's why you have a system of justice. And so it would just be so great. And I've heard Lila say some things. I'm like, good. Yeah, Lila, great. Like, talking about there must be some. Some sort of punishment. But in this case, I think it's important to say to women, yes, we want to give equal protection to all humans in the womb. This is the unjustified taking of human life. We want every human being, whether in the womb or out the womb, to have the same protection under the law. And that means that if you as a mother, kill your child in the womb or when they're three years old, you of course need to face the law. That's justice. We want justice in our society.

[Lila Rose]

Hi, Cecy.

[Zachary Conover]

Hi.

[Lila Rose]

So we were just talking about. You brought up the fact that you think doctors should. Should be. What was it? Liable if they commit abortion now because it's murder, in your opinion? Yes. Just like there are on already statutes for illegal abortion. My question to that is what? Just to be clear, there's already statutes for illegal abortion. Yeah. But there's statutes against infanticide, etc. Okay. Anyway, but with the doctors. So do you think the doctors should be sent to prison? Like, if this is murder, why don't we treat it like murder? It should be treated like murder. Because it's not. Well, then if I hired a hitman to kill my husband, I'd still go to prison even if I didn't pull the trigger.

[Zachary Conover]

Boom.

[Jeff Coleman]

This is the question.

[Zachary Conover]

Boom.

[Jeff Coleman]

Pro life movement has to deal with.

[Zachary Conover]

She sees it. The pro abort sees it. See, they see it. And it is an incredible position to be in, in my mind, for the pro life establishment to raise millions and millions of dollars to, to advocate for life, to. To fight for life, they. They say, and to say all the things that they say about the human being in the womb. And then to, in this particular case, when it comes to punishment, crime and punishment, to completely leap off their own position, abandon it totally, and to live in such inconsistency, to simply say to. To simply ignore what this pro abort clearly sees. Now, wait a minute. If you're calling it murder, which Lila does, by the way. Thank you, Lila, for actually saying what many in the pro life establishment will not say. They will not use the bold word that you use, the true word you use, which is murder. And so, so I, I think I thank God for that very much. Appreciate that, Lila. So thankful for that. Truly, truly mean that. But Lila's saying it's murder. And this woman's going, great, if it's murder, then I'm hiring the assassin, so what should happen to me?

[Jeff Coleman]

And she's just reasoning from our stated beliefs.

[Zachary Conover]

That's what's happening. She's answering according to our position.

[Jeff Coleman]

Okay, this is what you believe? This is the conclusion of that line of reasoning? Yes.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. Excellent.

[Lila Rose]

Anyone involved? Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing? Well, I don't think abortion is a bad thing, so I don't think that would ever be on the table. I understand that. But I think, yes, there should be penalties for people to kill anybody. What do you think should happen to me? I had an abortion. I was 19. So what in your mind, in your perfect world, what would happen to me? So if abortion were banned now, I wouldn't want it to be retroactive for people that had abortions in the past. No, no, no. I'm talking about.

[Zachary Conover]

Let's say I have one child.

[Lila Rose]

Well, I think that's an important point. Like, no, no, no. Well, if you had an abortion and attract. I'm talking about now, because this is who affects people now. So what do you think? If you think it's murder and you want to call it murder, why aren't you treating it like murder? So you're saying it is because what you do is actually villainize and shame women and that has ripple effects throughout society.

[Jeff Coleman]

That's the question. Again, if you say it's murder, why aren't you treating it that way for everybody? And again, it's not that Lila is doing that like her responsibility, her role. She's not a legislator. Right. So it's not directly to her. But again, this, the perspective that is keeping this around in terms of not doing what we say we believe.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Jeff Coleman]

That is the dividing line of what this comes down to. And I think she even said, I missed this the first time. But Lila said there should be penalties for people that kill other people.

[Zachary Conover]

Good job.

[Jeff Coleman]

I believe that she's being consistent with that.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah, that's right.

[Jeff Coleman]

I think by extension now, like, go further because the question will always be what should those Penalties be. To which the answer is, well, as a good start, let's try this. What's the penalty for killing a person unjustly? That's already born.

[Zachary Conover]

Right?

[Jeff Coleman]

Let's start there. Yeah, let's start with equal weights and measures. Let's start with a just step towards what is righteous, good and true. And then we can improve upon that in terms of penology, because, hey, two to five years for a mother to kill her child, as some state statutes like ours said. Arizona, up until a couple years ago, when that was booted off the books by the pro life establishment here, it was a two to five year sanction for a mother to do it. Right. That was on the books.

[Zachary Conover]

Right.

[Jeff Coleman]

So we recognize, right, that it's a sanction, but however, that is not the sanction that we demand for killing someone outside the womb. It was less inconsistent by a long shot. It was less. So what are we saying with our laws? We're saying that this human being outside the womb is more valuable and worth more protection than human beings inside the womb. Do you see the inequity going on there? We're saying one thing and we're doing something differently with our laws.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah. And I'll say one last thing here, everybody to that point, when she says you're villainizing women, I would try to, as graciously as I possibly could, communicate to her. Well, when it comes to crime in society, all of us recognize that we have to vilify certain actions that occur in our communities. Like for example, I know this woman doesn't have any problem with us villainizing men who beat their wives. We should villainize them.

[Jeff Coleman]

Right.

[Zachary Conover]

You are acting like a villain.

[Jeff Coleman]

We have no problem heaping shame upon that activity.

[Zachary Conover]

Right. And we have no problem villainizing rapists in our society. And we ought to villainize them and their behavior, call it wicked. We have no problem villainizing thieves in our society. We ought to villainize them. And so you just go down the line, you can recognize that, that when we talk about crimes in society, it's fully appropriate for us to say this is immoral, this is unethical, this is wrong, this is an atrocity. And if you engage in it, then you are a villain. Nobody has a problem calling the mother who kills her child by drowning him in the bathtub at five years old. Nobody has a problem referring to her as a villain. And it feels totally appropriate to us to make sure that she's seeing the hard end of the law. And so there's no problem with us villainizing that particular activity in our society. We want people to know the gospel. We want people to know Christ and experience forgiveness and peace with God. But we also ought to be able to say, yeah, if you rape somebody, you're a villain, you're evil, you're wicked. We should be able to say that because we have a definition in scripture. All right, so everybody, we're going to jump over to the after show@ apologiastudios.com so if you guys are all access my, come on over there. We're gonna hang out with you a few minutes over there at the after show. If you're not all access yet, make sure you guys partner with us with all [e-mail] don't forget everyone to go to apologiesstudios.com go to the store. You can get all these great tracks. Gospel for Mormons. What is the good news of God? Hope for tomorrow. We have tracks even in espanol and we've got T shirts there. All kinds of great stuff. I wanted to point everyone also coffee. Don't forget precept coffee. Hey everyone, don't forget yet. Do it. I mean, I really encourage you to do it. Go to ionlayer.com ionlayer.com look up. I say this to you guys a lot. I, I just encourage you to take a peek at it. It's, it's a huge blessing in my life. Go look up on Google NAD benefits. It is just incredible. The benefits of NAD treatments. NAD benefits. Well, you can get high dose NAD through a medical patch on your arm. No pain like the IV treatment will give you at a substantially lower cost. I mean you get six treatments of like 500 milligrams I believe it is. And that's a lot. If you were to do that, a 500 milligram treatment through IV, it'd be a painful B expensive. And so nad through ionlayer.com type apologia, all caps and the coupon code. They're going to give you a discount and hookup and they're also going to bless us as a ministry, help us to keep doing the ministry that we're doing. Uh, don't forget, also go to reformcon.org ReformCon is coming up end of April, Tucson, Arizona. If you don't have tickets, guys, come hang out with us in Tucson. Reformcon.org David Bonson, Douglas Wilson, Joe Boot, Dr. James White, myself and a number of others. We're doing some eschatology discussions. A lot of great stuff planned. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Tucson, Arizona end of April. Reformcon.org don't forget to get your tickets as soon as you can. Oh, one more thing. Also don't forget also ionlayer.com has their the glutathione glutathione patch. Glutathione, the master antioxidant. Huge need in the body. The master antioxidants glutathione patches have been shown to increase the levels of glutathione in your system. It's, it's, it's just an incredible, I love ion layer. They're seriously one of my very favorite health and wellness uh, companies, biohacking companies. And uh, it's a, it's a, it's a great blessing. Who am I missing here? What are we missing here?

[Jeff Coleman]

We're missing amtac Blades.

[Zachary Conover]

Amtac Blades. Everybody go to amtac Blades. Our good friend X Dev grew Navy Seal Bill Rapier. An amazing man of God and one of our deadliest warriors of the last generation. And he is, he knows how to make a good blade. If you're into having a good solid blade on your, on yourself, but also one for self defense, you could tell the man has had to use these things in self defense because he pulled a blade that is just right for defending yourself with a blade. They are amazing. And when you guys get a blade from Bill Rapier at AMTAC Blades, he also participates in the ministry of end abortion now. So everyone go also To End Abortion Now.com Sign your church up to go save lives at the abortion mill. Please give their financially. You've heard about all the states that we're in trying to abolish abortion with bills across the country. You are participating directly in this ministry. When you [e-mail] Please don't fail to do so. We need your prayers. We need your financial giving.

[Jeff Coleman]

One more thing to never want to forget about our good friend Bradley Pierce and Heritage Defense. If you need advocacy for your family, particularly if you're a homeschooling family and any three letter agencies come knocking at your door with accusations, you have legal representation on hand that can defend the rights of your family in the face of anyone that would seek to take those things away or infringe upon those things. So make sure that you go to heritagedefense.org where you can learn more about that.

[Zachary Conover]

All right guys, we're gonna head over to apologiastudios.com to do the after show. If you're all access, meet us over there. If you're not all access. Get on the all access. Be a part of this ministry with us. Thank you, guys. God bless you. We'll see you next week right here in Apologia Radio.