519. Did Jesus Claim To Be God? Responding to Alex O'Connor

Summary

Apologia Radio Episode 519 – Did Jesus Claim To Be God? Responding to Alex O'Connor

Date: April 11, 2025
Host: Jeff Durbin (Apologia Radio)
Guests/Panellists: James White, David Wood, Douglas Wilson, Zachary Conover
Context: In this episode, the panel responds to Alex O’Connor’s (Cosmic Skeptic) debate with David Wood on the question: “Did Jesus claim to be God?” The team defends the divinity of Jesus, carefully interacts with Alex’s arguments, and highlights key biblical texts relating to Christ’s nature.

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Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

The episode examines whether Jesus explicitly claimed to be God, responding specifically to popular atheist Alex O’Connor’s arguments against the divinity of Christ, which recently featured in his debate with David Wood. The Apologia crew dissects O’Connor’s focus on the Gospel of John and his strategy of challenging the Christian understanding of Jesus’ identity, engaging both the theological and scriptural depth of the question.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setup: Understanding the Stakes of the Debate

• [04:24] The hosts introduce Alex O’Connor as a thoughtful, articulate, rising star among atheists, particularly adept at probing perceived inconsistencies or contradictions within the Bible.
• [06:14] O’Connor’s approach often involves scrutinizing the New Testament’s testimony about Jesus’ divinity, focusing especially on the Gospel of John and leveraging biblical scholarship that is often skeptical or secular.

2. Why Did Jesus Pray? Humanity, Divinity, and Incarnation

• [08:54] O’Connor raises the classic question: Why does Jesus, if divine, pray to the Father (e.g., before raising Lazarus), suggesting this points to subordination or distinction from God.

• [11:38] The Apologia hosts respond by emphasizing orthodox Christology:

  • Jesus is “truly God and truly man,” and his actions as the God-man reflect both his divine prerogatives and his perfect human submission.
  • “Why would you see Jesus, who has been in an eternal relationship with the Father, acting in this way in his ministry, submitting himself to the Father…? It’s in Philippians chapter two.” (David Wood, [11:40])

• [15:16] Philippians 2 and Isaiah 9 are cited to show both Christ’s divine identity (El Gibbor—“Mighty God”) and his incarnation, highlighting the nuanced relationship between equality with God and voluntary humility for the sake of salvation.

3. On Christ’s Power and Authority

• [19:10] The panel notes that Jesus’ laying aside of divine prerogatives isn’t an argument against his divinity but part of the incarnation:
  • “Paul’s whole point contextually…is that we have certain rights, but in the example of Christ, we choose to lay those things aside in the service of others.” (James White, [19:24])
  • The panel argues that difference in function doesn’t imply inequality in nature:
    • “Difference in function does not indicate inferiority in nature.” (James White, [33:06])

4. Atheist Methodology vs. Scriptural Context

• [20:13] Douglas Wilson questions the utility of demanding internal consistency from Christian scripture from an atheistic standpoint:
  • “…A true atheist is going to say, I don’t care [about Scripture].”
  • The team notes O’Connor’s approach is largely to hunt for contradictions and project a “mangled mess,” often aimed at a less biblically literate audience.

5. Jesus’ Claims in John 5 – Lord of the Sabbath and Judge

• [22:32]–[26:27]
  • O’Connor examines Jesus’ healing on the Sabbath in John 5 and his statement, “My Father is working until now, and I am working,” arguing Jesus isn’t uniquely divine but acting with delegated authority.
  • The hosts counter by showing that Jesus makes claims exclusive to Yahweh—being the judge of all (John 5:22–23), raising the dead (v. 21), and deserving the same honor as the Father.
    • “The only way you’d honor the Son the same way you honor the Father is if they have the same nature and attributes…” (Alex O’Connor, [24:03])
    • “If God has the right to work on the Sabbath, then so does Jesus. That’s Jesus’ point.” (David Wood, [31:13])

6. Mark 2, “Lord of the Sabbath,” and the Son of Man

• [36:19]–[42:14]
  • O’Connor explores whether “Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath” means something less than divinity, referencing scholarly debates over the definite article in Greek.
  • The hosts respond:
    • Jesus’ citation of David eating priestly bread (Mark 2) isn’t about justifying general Sabbath-breaking, but positions Jesus as the true and better priest/king—fulfilling Old Testament foreshadowings.
    • “He is the true and perfect king…perfect priest…foreshadowed in the Old Testament.” (David Wood, [41:44])
    • Jesus upends not the Law but traditions and offers a fuller priesthood in himself.

7. Reading John – “Proof Texting” and the Unified Story

• [45:46] The hosts critique O’Connor’s and many atheists’ tendency to “proof text” without attending to overall biblical context.
  • They stress that to properly evaluate Jesus’ claims, one must read John (and the rest of Scripture) as a coherent, unified revelation.

8. Delegation, Glory, and the Incarnation

• [54:55]–[63:33]

  • O’Connor notes that Christ is ‘granted’ authority in passages like John 5 and John 17, suggesting created or conferred status.
  • The panel points out that these texts assume the incarnation—Jesus as the God-man undertaking his human mission, voluntarily subordinating himself to the Father.
    • “What would it look like? I would say, well, it’d look like Jesus, just like that, because it’s Incarnation.” (David Wood, [58:29])

• John 17 is highlighted:

  • Jesus asks to be glorified with the Father “with the glory I had with You before the world existed.”
  • “If Yahweh doesn’t share his glory with anyone else, then why does Jesus say that he had it with the Father?” (David Wood, [65:49])

9. “I Am” (Ego Eimi): Explicit Divine Claims

• [67:54]–[79:18]
  • The panel highlights Jesus’ repeated “I am” statements in John (e.g., 8:58, 13:19, 18:4–6) as direct claims to divine identity.
    • Examples:
      • “Unless you believe ego eimi, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)
      • “Before Abraham was, I am.”
      • “When Jesus said to them, ‘I am,’ they drew back and fell to the ground.” (John 18:6)
  • John 12:41 explicitly identifies Jesus as the glory seen by Isaiah (in Isaiah 6) – a reference to Yahweh.
    • “If you ask Isaiah... he would say: Yahweh. You ask John... he would say: Jesus. He saw Jesus. So that’s the preexistence of Christ and that’s worship of the one true God, Yahweh.” (David Wood, [72:34])
  • The hosts note these repeated episodes where Jesus’ divine self-designation provokes blasphemy accusations and attempts on his life, showing that his audience understood his claims to be God.

10. Incarnation as the Interpretive Key

• [63:33], [68:16]
  • Summarizing, the hosts assert that O’Connor’s questions are resolved in light of the mystery of the incarnation.
    • “What makes all the questions dissipate is the incarnation. And that’s what Alex is not considering.” (David Wood, [68:16])

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Difference in function does not indicate inferiority in nature.”
  —James White, [33:06]
• “If God has the right to work on the Sabbath, then so does Jesus. That’s Jesus’ point.”
  —David Wood, [31:13]
• “Unless you believe ego eimi, you will die in your sins. Then he also says, before Abraham was, I am. Now, what’s their response to him saying, before Abraham was, I am? They pick up stones to kill him. Of course.”
  —David Wood, [67:54]
• “Mind blowing, right? The God who created the wood that they nailed him to.”
  —James White, [68:16]
• “If Yahweh doesn’t share his glory with anyone else, then why does Jesus say that he had it with the Father? …He’s saying something that, guess what? You’re not supposed to say if you’re not Yahweh.”
  —David Wood, [65:49]
• “He is the monogones Theos, the unique, one of a kind God who is in the bosom of the Father.”
  —David Wood, [13:06]
• “He who has seen me has seen the Father.”
  —Referencing Jesus in John

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic/Key Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:24 | Introduction to Alex O’Connor and the context of the atheist debate | | 08:54 | O’Connor’s questions on Jesus’ prayer before miracles | | 11:40 | Response: Christ’s dual nature and Philippians 2 | | 15:16 | Old Testament prophecies and divinity (Isaiah 9, Micah 5:2) | | 19:10 | Laying aside divine prerogatives and incarnation explained | | 22:32 | John 5: Jesus as judge, giver of life, honored as the Father | | 26:20 | Sabbath debate, Son of Man, and the meaning of Lord of the Sabbath | | 33:06 | Difference in function ≠ difference in nature | | 41:44 | Jesus as fulfillment of priest, king, prophet roles | | 45:46 | “Proof texting” vs. narrative context critique | | 54:55 | Delegated authority in John 17; pre-existence and shared glory| | 65:49 | John 17 and Isaiah 43: God shares glory only with Himself | | 67:54 | “I Am” statements and responses in John’s Gospel | | 72:34 | Isaiah 6, John 12:41 – identifying Jesus as Yahweh | | 73:31 | John 13 – Fulfilling prophecy as “I Am” | | 76:01 | Arrest in Gethsemane: “I Am” and soldiers falling |

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Flow and Takeaways

1. Comprehensive Scriptural Defense: The Apologia panel systematically answers each of O’Connor’s skeptical arguments—from prayers to the Father, delegated authority, to supposed gospel inconsistencies—by grounding responses in the doctrine of the incarnation and Trinitarian theology.
2. Critical of Proof Texting: They emphasize the necessity to read the Bible in context, seeing the revelation about Christ as unified and intentional, rather than as a patchwork of contradictions.
3. Highlighting the Weight of Christ’s Claims: Through John’s Gospel and other scriptures, the team underscores how Jesus’ claims (e.g., "Before Abraham was, I am"; claiming prerogatives exclusive to God; being worshipped; sharing the Father’s glory) were understood as blasphemous unless true, as evidenced by attempts on his life.
4. Invitation to Deeper Study: They note that a robust study of the incarnation and the Trinity, as found in the scriptures, is vital for grasping why Christians see Jesus’ words and actions as unmistakably divine.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode offers an in-depth, clear apologetic for the divinity of Jesus, carefully responding to leading atheist arguments and situating Jesus’ claims within the broad, connected story of the Bible. It’s both accessible for lay listeners and informative for those looking to understand the high points of Christian doctrine on Jesus’ identity.

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End of Content Summary
[All non-content/commercial sections have been omitted.]

Transcript

[James White]

Non rockabotists must stop.

[David Wood]

I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. Are you going to bark all day, little doggy, or are you going to bite?

[Alex O'Connor]

Delusional, Jeff. Delusional? Yeah.

[David Wood]

Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me. Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

[Douglas Wilson]

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies, not to make brosephs.

[David Wood]

Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

Don't go into the world and make homies disciples.

[David Wood]

I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, Pastor.

[James White]

When we have the real message of.

[David Wood]

Truth, we cannot let somebody say they're.

[Zachary Conover]

Speaking truth when they're not.

[David Wood]

Take an amazing journey to a place.

[Douglas Wilson]

That will blow your mind and move.

[David Wood]

Your heart so you will never be the same again. Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, whom do you seek? They answered him, jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said to them, echo I me. Judas who betrayed him was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, ego ami. They drew back and fell to the ground. That's in John chapter 18, y'. All. What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologio radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. That's the bear.

[Douglas Wilson]

What up?

[David Wood]

They call me the ninja. And that over there is Zachary Conover.

[James White]

Yo, everyone.

[David Wood]

Director communications with end abortion now go and ch out apologiastudios.com a p o l o g I a studios.com get tons of additional content there. Hundreds of radio shows, podcast episodes, all kinds of programs from Shiologens provoked cultish apology radio. You can also sign up for all [e-mail] you partner with us in this ministry gospel going out all over the world, beyond the street, evangelism interactions, public debates, the online teaching there, everything that's happening hundreds of millions of views globally is all happening at Apologia Studios, on YouTube and across platforms. And everybody who is all access is a part of this ministry with us. And so sign up for all access. Tons of additional content, including some brand new academies, great academies on the book of revelation, apologetics, the Trinity Prayer, all kinds of stuff is there. Full episodes of Collision, the the monthly ask me anythings, the after show for Apologia Radio. All there for your listening pleasure. And don't forget, as I always announce, please take advantage of this. Go to apologiastudios.com get your free free free Bonson U account the Life's work of Dr. Greg Bonson, one of the greatest Christian apologists and philosophers in the history of the Christian church is all available as a gift to you through Apologia Studios from the Bonson family. His life's work, all of his seminary stuff, classes, top tier theological education, his stuff from his church, expositional Bible preaching, just tons of great stuff through the Bible preaching, the debates, all of that is there at Bonson U. Go sign up completely for free. Take advantage of that to get some of the best education you can get from one of the greats in church history. So what's up everybody? Hey, we are really close right now to Reform Con 2025.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yes we are.

[David Wood]

Reform Con 2025 here in Arizona. I think the weather's great right now. It's getting a little warmer right now, but not too bad. And we're going to be in Tucson in just about two weeks. Well, two weeks to today. Yeah. Two weeks in in Tucson, Arizona to reformcon.org get your tickets last minute. Come and join us in Tucson for what's going to be an epic time together with Dr. Andrew Sandlin, Dr. Joe Boot, Dr. James White, David Bonson, myself, Douglas Wilson, Toby Sumpter, Virgil Walker's coming to join us. We also even have something super, super special and that is Nancy Wilson is going to be at Reform Con doing a breakout session for the ladies. And so my wife's super excited about that.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah.

[David Wood]

And so reformcon.org is coming. Get your tickets and get them soon. We'll catch you guys in Tucson. And okay, so let's get started. So we got word that, that the debate dropped and it was a discussion between Alex o', Connor, the well known popular new atheist. So like James was saying the other day on his podcast, you've got the old atheists like the horse, four horsemen in the apocalypse, Daniel Dennett and Dawkins and Hitchens and that whole crew. Well, those guys are either dead or, or, or getting dead. Who's left?

[Douglas Wilson]

Talk. Dawkins.

[James White]

Yeah, Dawkins is.

[David Wood]

Yeah, Dawkins. Dawkins. The last. No, you also have. Why is my, my mind going blank right now? Sam? Oh yeah, my. Okay, I lost it. Sorry.

[Douglas Wilson]

That guy.

[David Wood]

Yeah, those Guys. Yeah. So anyway, so those guys are going away now and so you have the new atheists coming up and Alex o' Connor for sure is Harris. Harris. Sam Harris. Why did I lose Sam Harris? Of course I know Sam Harris is. So Alex o' Connor is a young super, super respected, respectable and, and dignified and articulate and I really like him. He's, he's, he's a, he's a sharp guy, intelligent guy and he's not bombastic or anything like that at all. He's just, he's, he seems like a great guy to interact with. I'd love to do a public debate with Alex o', Connor, but uh, so I really like him and he popular all over Tick Tock and other platforms right now. He just recently, fairly recently did the thing with Jubilee where he's in the middle and everyone surrounds him and you know, everyone sort of runs in real fast to have a challenge with him. But he debated David Wood on the question officially did Jesus claim to be God? And if I'm not mistaken, this is.

[James White]

The area of his primary interest as well. He likes to focus on the New Testament in particular the claims of Christ and the question of whether or not Jesus is divine.

[David Wood]

Yeah, and, and what's interesting about Alex is that Alex is, like I said, he's a very intelligent, bright, well spoken guy. And so he will go, and you've seen this like in the Jubilee thing and other things he will go the direction of like you know, trying to decry the God of the Bible as a moral monster. And you know, the issue of pain and suffering. The whole theodicy question is, is a big thing with Alex o'. Connor. And, but, and, and he has, he has made it clear that he, he really does read through the Bible and he, oh yeah, thinks there's contradictions. He likes to go that route. And I think in some ways he probably would surprise a lot of Christians because he's read maybe more of the Bible than they have. And, and when they're, when they're discussion, discussing these things with them. So anyway, so he took the challenge of did Jesus claim to be God? With David Wood and public debate, moderated public debate. The, the Q A section is not really, it's not like a moderated public debate, cross examination kind of thing. It's more of like an open discussion, which is nice. I think it's good. So they had their regular opening statements and rebuttals and closing. But the, this section is opening discussion. We're probably not going to be able to play through all of this, I'm confident we're not going to be able to because we're making commentary along the way. So just consider this a start of the discussion, getting into what some of Alex o' Connor says about the divinity of the Lord Jesus. And there's much more that I need to understand about Alex o' Connor and the route that he takes. You can't get it all from one debate on the question of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, and, you know, the divinity of Christ. So I, I have questions I'd love to ask him, but on this one, he tries to really hone in on the Gospel according to John. That's where he likes to camp out here. And so that's where much of the discussion takes place with Alex, between Alex and David here. And so we're just going to get started right away. We're going to jump right into it. And you guys tell me when you want to stop. And here we go.

[Douglas Wilson]

Let's do it.

[David Wood]

Shall we spark it off, gentlemen?

[Zachary Conover]

Whatever you like.

[David Wood]

Let's do it. Open dialogue. Who would like to take the lead?

[Zachary Conover]

Well, I have some questions perhaps to ask David about his position on Jesus's relationship to the Father with particular regards to the authority that he derives from the Father. So one question, for example, why do you think that Jesus prays before raising Lazarus from the dead?

[Alex O'Connor]

The Old Testament says that God is the God of all flesh. If a divine being were to become incarnate, as is claimed of Jesus, and that divine being really became a flesh and blood human being like Jesus, then if he is, if he's also had an eternal relationship with the Father, then I don't know if I'd expect him to be an atheist when he entered into creation. So in other words, in other words, if, if the Christian picture is correct, you've got Father and Son for all eternity, Son enters into creation, what's he going to be an atheist? If he is going to as part of it, if he's going to be the ideal human or something like that.

[Zachary Conover]

The Son of Man, one might say.

[Alex O'Connor]

As far as what Jesus is going to do, you would continue the eternal relationship that you've had with the Father and you would do that through prayer.

[Zachary Conover]

What I mean to say is, could Jesus have risen Lazarus from the dead of his own accord, on his own authority?

[Alex O'Connor]

I suppose, yeah, I suppose because all authority has been given to him.

[Zachary Conover]

It's been given to him by God. Right. Which, the way that I read that is that the Father has delegated the authority that is rightfully his to Jesus. And it's often said to me that Jesus raising people from the dead of his own authority is actually an indication of his divinity. Because we have Old Testament passages of people raising people from the dead, like Elijah and Elisha. And the point is always made that, well, they pray before they rise from the dead. Jesus doesn't pray, but before he raises Lazarus. In John chapter 11, he looks upward and says, father, I thank you for having heard me. I know that you always hear me, but I've said this for the sake of the crowd standing here so they may believe that you have sent me. And when he says this, he cries out with a loud voice, lazarus, come out. So Jesus is not only praying before raising Lazarus, but also saying that I always do this. It's just I'm doing it right now publicly. So there's no confusion that you're the one who sent me to do this. And so even in instances where Jesus appears to perform miracles of his own accord, such as calming the storm or indeed raising other people from the dead, like the, the widow's child, he tells us here in John's Gospel that he always is in communication with God beforehand. But right now he's saying so publicly so that people will know that he sent him. Why does Jesus need to pray before he raises Lazarus from the dead?

[Alex O'Connor]

I mean, this is the exact same chapter.

[David Wood]

So good, good, important points to, to, to talk about. Now, one of the things that Alex seems to be be neglecting is what the Gospel according to John and the rest of the New Testament really the whole Bible would testify to about Christ and his person, his nature. And that is that Jesus is the God man. And so he is truly God and truly man. Now you start to see the foreshadowing of, of the ministry of Christ and the prophecies of the Messiah from the Old Testament leading into the New. And some of that includes, of course, Isaiah, chapter nine, where specifically this one who is coming, who is a child and a son, is coming, he is El Gabor. He is the, the Father of eternity and all of that. So, you know, you clearly in, in Isaiah itself, in Isaiah 9, you have the son who is coming. The child who's coming is El Gabor. That's an exclusive title of Yahweh. As a matter of fact, they're all titles of Yahweh. Wonderful, counselor, El Gabor, the Mighty God, all of that. But if you just look a chapter over in Isaiah, you'll see that Yahweh is called El Gabor, the mighty God. And so all that is there in terms of the divinity of Christ, pointing to Jesus, the one, Micah 52, who's coming to Bethlehem is from everlasting, from eternity. Yahweh is from everlasting to everlasting. So that's there. But as you get into the New Testament, of course, in the Gospel of John, John chapter one, it starts off with the clear claim that Jesus Christ has always existed in arcane halagos. He has in the beginning was the Word. He was always there in existence, and he was prostone theon toward the Father, face to face with the Father, an intimate relationship with the Father. And it says, kaitheos ain't halagas. And and the Word was God. And all things were created because of Jesus through him was without him not anything made has has been made. He made everything. And the Word became flesh. And he is of course the monogones Theos, the unique, one of a kind God who is in the bosom of the Father. He has made the Father known. And so you have to take into account, Alex, the incarnation, that he is truly God by nature and truly man. He was the prophesied servant who was to come, the true and perfect Israel, the true and perfect Adam. And so why would you see Jesus, who has been an eternal relationship with the Father, acting in this way in his ministry, submitting himself to the Father, being obedient to the Father, obeying the law of God, conversing with the Father in humility towards the Father? Well, it's in Philippians chapter two. I mean, it's one of the indications. I mean, it's in John. It's in John as well. But In Philippians chapter 2, in verse 4, let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves which is yours in Messiah. Jesus, who though he was in the form of God, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form, the form of a servant. Being born in the likeness of men, and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth, and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. Now that by the way, right there, all that is about Yahweh every knee bowing, all that is Yahweh.

[James White]

Isaiah 45, if I'm not mistaken.

[David Wood]

It's all, it's, it's clear now. Now look, Alex may say. No, I get that the followers of Jesus, the disciples of Jesus clearly thought he was Yahweh. And that's all throughout he, he may be there. And forgive me, Alex, if you see this, I'm just exact. I'm not exactly sure where you're at on this issue in terms of the New Testament itself and the ancient witness of the Church in the inspired documents here, if you, if you would admit. Yeah, it clearly, I mean, it calls Jesus our great God and Savior. I mean, there's no question that the New Testament documents outside the Gospels clearly call Jesus God, the eternal God. But all that to say what you're missing here, what I would emphasize. And of course David believes this. Of course David believes this is the incarnation itself. And so when you say, well, like, why is Jesus praying to the Father and asking the Father to do things? Because Jesus is the perfect humanity. Jesus is what we are supposed to be, what we were called to be. He is fulfilling our vocation. This is the vocation of every image bearer of God, including you, Alex. And so Jesus is the true and perfect Israel. Jesus is the true and perfect Adam. And so when you see Jesus in his ministry, submitting himself to the Father, laying aside certain divine, divine prerogatives, like not knowing the timing of his coming, that is, that is the incarnation itself, the submission to the Father, being humbled to the obedience of death, all that. But I think one of the things that can be pointed to is something very important that seems to be missed. And it's in the, it's in the Gospel of John. That's where, like Alex likes to camp. So let's talk about it for a second. In John's Gospel, you have Jesus going to the temple near the beginning of his ministry for the first cleansing of the temple. And then in the other Synoptic gospels, you have Jesus going near the end of the ministry for the second cleansing of the temple. Now, by the way, that's exactly what had to happen if Jesus is the perfect priest, the perfect high priest, because the priest according to Leviticus had to go to the house that was diseased and do the inspection twice. And if he found disease, then it need to be laid waste and desolate, which is precisely what Jesus pronounces upon the temple. But all that to say in the scene in John chapter two, where Jesus goes, he says about the temple, destroy this temple. And in three days, I will raise it up. And it says in John that he was referring to the temple of his body. Now, what's interesting about that is that if you look, if you scan the New Testament itself, you will see that it says that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. You will see that it says Jesus raised himself from the dead, like John, Chapter two destroyed this temple. And in three days I will raise it up. You will see that the Bible says in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit raised Jesus Christ from the dead. And it says, just generally, God raised Jesus from the dead. However, if you're looking for an indication that Jesus Christ has power over life and death, he says in the very same Gospel that he's hanging out in, that he raises himself from the dead. And he says during his crucifixion that no one takes my life from me. I lay it down of my own accord. He has power to lay it down again and to raise it up again. And of course, you can't miss the fact that it's clear in John's Gospel, in and throughout the Gospels and through the New Testament itself, leading all the way to the end of the New Testament document and record that we have that Jesus Christ is the judge who is going to raise the dead. He will be the judge, and he will be the one who raises the dead. And so when someone says, well, like, why is Jesus praying to the Father to, like, you know, you know, ask for the Father's help or authority to do this is because it's the incarnation. It's the incarnation. This is what it looks like when there's a God man, truly God and truly man.

[James White]

I think he even brings up Philippians 2 at one point in the debate. I don't know if you recall, but he questions that phrase, that verse about Jesus having certain divine prerogatives, but didn't consider equality with God a thing to seize.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[James White]

Or to grasp.

[David Wood]

To grasp or hold on to. Yeah.

[James White]

And his question is something along the lines of, well, if these were already Jesus, why would he not, you know, try to seize them? Or something to that effect?

[David Wood]

Like, because the Incarnation.

[James White]

Well, yeah, but I mean, Paul's whole point contextually there in calling believers to have humility towards one another is that we have certain rights, but in the example of Christ, we choose to lay those things aside in the service of others.

[David Wood]

Yes.

[James White]

As our Savior did.

[David Wood]

Right, Right.

[James White]

And so Jesus didn't use those things to his advantage.

[David Wood]

Right.

[James White]

He willingly condescended and laid those things Aside temporarily in the service of his people. And so that's the example that his people are to follow.

[Douglas Wilson]

So I was just gonna say quickly. I mean, I didn't, I haven't watched this. I wanted to get a live reaction to this.

[David Wood]

But.

[Douglas Wilson]

So they may have addressed this somewhere in the debate. But I'm thankful that to be able to demonstrate the answers to his questions in scripture. But it just seems like an odd topic with an atheist to begin with.

[David Wood]

It is interesting, right?

[Douglas Wilson]

Like, because you're doing a fantastic job of saying, well, here it is in scripture. Here's an Old Testament. Like a true atheist is going to say, I don't care.

[David Wood]

Yeah. And that's what's strange. That's why he's, you know, Alex, Alex is a weird cat. Yeah.

[James White]

It's almost like he's. Well, why would Jesus pray before this instance of raising but not others? You know, it's just kind of a curiosity.

[David Wood]

Alex takes the approach that many atheists do, and it's to try to find contradictions in the Bible. And, you know, it's all a mess. And, you know, this text says this, this text says that all stuff that Christians have, have dealt with over the centuries, there's good, solid answers, refutations of Alex's arguments. But a lot of times he, he pulls these arguments on the unsuspecting or uneducated or untrained. And so they, you know, they may not know the difference in two passages. Like, well, why is the construction this way versus that way? They haven't examined that. And so Alex kind of throws it out and like, look, here's a contra. All these things have been answered. And I'm pretty sure that Alex probably is aware of that. But Alex does spend a lot of time reading biblical scholarship. And when he talks about biblical scholarship, it's not, it's not necessarily believing biblical scholarship. He's reading unbelieving biblical scholarship.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah.

[David Wood]

And so Alex takes that route to try to go with sort of the unbelieving biblical scholarship to try to talk about the Bible. It's a mess of things and themes. And so I think his route is to. Is to make the Bible look like a mangled mess. And, you know, Jesus didn't really claim to be God sort of thing, which is, you know, I think is amusing to hear somebody say that. But of course you could, you know, I think the important route at the end, because all these can be answered and they have been answered ad infinitum, ad nauseam. But I, I, of course would want to sit With Alex and say, Alex, are we kind of spinning our wheels here as descendants of, you know, the slime as bacteria? You know, there's no moral obligation not to lie to you in debate. Or there's no, you know, there's no reason to look for coherence or consistency. I mean, you're an atheist, for goodness sake.

[James White]

That's what I still haven't seen from anyone that's really interacted with him substantively is challenging his foundation.

[David Wood]

Challenging his foundation.

[Douglas Wilson]

You think we evolved from pond scum? So what if Jesus prayed to God?

[David Wood]

Yeah, it's three. Three bags of biological stuff on a stage. You know, what's the. What's the point here? Just, you know, spewing brain gas? What's the.

[Alex O'Connor]

Jesus declares himself the resurrection and the life.

[Zachary Conover]

That's right.

[Alex O'Connor]

And it's in the same book where Jesus says that he's the one who raises the dead at the resurrection, everyone who's in their graves will hear the voice of the Son of God. And so if you're thinking that when we talk about Jesus, we're thinking of him as some rogue deity who does things on his own, I mean, that's basically the. The entire meaning of John, chapter five. John chapter five is basically one response to this. Jesus. Jesus heals on the Sabbath. And this freaks him out because they say, hey, what are you doing? He says, well, the Father's working. Until now I'm working too.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[Alex O'Connor]

And so since the Father's working, I get to work. You all don't get to work. I get to work. And then they accuse him of claiming to be equal to God. And then he explains it that it's a verse that Muslims use. He says, by my own self, I can do nothing. But if you look at what he's saying, it's. I can do nothing separately from the Father. But that's the same chapter where he claims that he's the final judge, where he claims that he's the one who raises the dead at the resurrection. And he explains it and says, for the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The only way you'd honor the Son the same way you honor the Father is if they have the same nature and attributes, you wouldn't honor anyone else like you honor God.

[Zachary Conover]

Interesting.

[Alex O'Connor]

Do you believe Jesus is saying that the reason he's the one who judges everything is because. Is so that we honor him the same way we honor the Father. That doesn't. That sounds do you believe.

[Zachary Conover]

Do you believe that the Father has a distinct loving relationship to the son compared to the loving relationship he has to all of us say, yep, only because I've heard you make this point before, that he says that that word as is quite important, what you just said, so that he will honor. So that they will honor me just as they honor the Father. That word, just as is kathos, which I mentioned earlier. That's also used when Jesus says, so they will know that you have loved me just as you have loved them. So if we're going to be consistent in our usage of the term here, if Jesus saying that they will honor you, just that they'll honor me just as you honor the Father, then the loving relationship has to be treated in the same way. Right?

[Alex O'Connor]

Well, I think you can say, if you say that I can say, I love this person just as I love my wife. And yeah, you'd be right. I could say, well, I just mean I love both of them, but not in the, you know, that wouldn't necessarily be saying, I love that person exactly as I.

[Zachary Conover]

But that's why there are two words in the Greek. That's why there's, like the word for.

[Alex O'Connor]

No, I'm fine. I'm talking about you have to interpret words in context.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Alex O'Connor]

And what's, what's the context of this? It's Jesus. Jesus claims. Jesus claims that since the Father is working, he's working also. And it's interesting because the discussion among the rabbis was, does God work? Does God work on the Sabbath?

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Alex O'Connor]

And so Jesus is working. So God works on the Sabbath because he's upholding and sustaining the universe. Therefore, I get to work on the Sabbath as well. And then, hey, you're claiming to be like, they think he's claiming to be another God. And he clarifies, no, no, by myself, I can do nothing. He points us.

[Zachary Conover]

He.

[Alex O'Connor]

He points us out. And in this context, he's the final judge. And so it's, you will honor the Son just as you honor the Father. There in context, it would be very strange to say, well, I just mean honor me in some sense, like you honor the Father, but not, not in that way. It's. I mean, the Old Testament, Yahweh is the one who sets up his throne to judge. Jesus is the one who says, all judgment is given to him.

[Zachary Conover]

Given. Yeah.

[Alex O'Connor]

Yeah. And so if it's.

[David Wood]

It's interesting because I, I don't think Alex is making an overly interesting point. Right. Not when you consider what the New Testament itself And the Old Testament obviously says about the Son of Man, the Messiah himself, Jesus is the incarnate one. And so if you consider the incarnation, Alex, the questions don't really have a lot of oomph to them. They don't really make a lot of sense. As a matter of fact, it's interesting because if you go to John chapter five, obviously John chapter five is after John chapter one. And in, in John chapter one you have this amazing setup about the identity of Jesus that John clearly wants you to read his entire gospel in light of what he starts with. And so he starts off at the beginning of his gospel explaining the idea identity of Jesus. And so you have to read the rest of John's gospel in light of what he says about Jesus. In John chapter one, he starts off with the story of Jesus and then he expands in the public ministry of Jesus to the private ministry of Jesus throughout the Gospels. And all of these different points throughout John's Gospel clearly are identifying Jesus as Yahweh, as one with the Father and as a woman. Divine prerogatives. Who is divine himself, the creator of all things. Of course, the I am statements that are littered throughout the Gospel according to John, the seven I am statements, and then to the explicit ego a me statements that are given by Jesus, that are clearly without question showing the pre existence of Christ and that Jesus is in fact taking the divine name. But even in that one right there in John chapter five, it's, it's, it's powerful because it's almost like Alex and Alex would try to extend the argument on this. But, but Alex is, is pointing to John chapter five, clearly an important section in John that identifies once again Jesus is saying that he is God, has the prerogatives of God, because what's the question going on here? So Jesus clearly has just said to a guy in verse 11 of chapter 5, he said this. He says, take up your bed and walk. They asked him, who is the man who said to you, take up your bed and walk? Why? Because this is on the Sabbath. It's on the Sabbath now. The man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn as there was a crowd in the place. Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, see you are well. Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you. The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. Now here's Jesus response to their complaint about him healing a guy on the Sabbath. Healing a guy, okay. But Jesus answered them. My Father is working until now, and I am working. This is why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him. Because not only was he breaking the Sabbath. All right, so he violated the Sabbath. According to them, he's violating the Sabbath, but he was even calling God, his own Father, making himself equal with God. So what in this little section from John here. Now there's more expanded elsewhere. But in this little section here, what is Jesus in John? In what is John emphasizing here? What is his argument against the Jews who are making the claim that he violated the Sabbath law? He is saying the same thing that they knew was going on with the Father.

[James White]

They got it.

[David Wood]

While the Father, the Creator of all things, God himself, our heavenly Father has said, Sabbath, you and you, six days you work and you enter into rest. You don't, you don't labor. But then the Jews, of course, are going, well, wait a minute, you know, we're not working. But God certainly is, right? God is still feeding the birds. God is still causing all this system to work. And God is upholding the universe. And God's clearly working. And of course, Jesus expands on that later with like, the Sabbath is not made for man. Wait, I got the wrong way.

[James White]

Okay, Sabbath was made for man.

[David Wood]

That's right. Sabbath is made for man, not man. For the Sabbath, Jesus makes that point. But here in John's Gospel, what is John emphasizing that Jesus main argument against the Jews there, His main point against them is that, you know, that thing you guys are disputing about the Father works on the Sabbath. My Father is working and so am I, right? And I'm allowed to. And who has the divine prerogative and right to work on the Sabbath? Well, clearly it's only God. And so I'm allowed to work on the Sabbath because my Father's always working and I'm working. And so this is clearly what John is doing here. He's identifying Jesus as divine. If God has the right to work on the Sabbath, then so does Jesus. That's Jesus point.

[James White]

I mean, it's right there in verse 18, he was calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God, take.

[David Wood]

The prerogatives of God to work on the Sabbath. And so then Jesus said to them in verse 19, truly, truly, I say to you, the Son of God can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does that the Son does likewise, for the Father loves the Son and has shown him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him so that you may marvel. Now watch this. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will just. There's the equality there between the Father and the Son. The Son gives life to whom he will. For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, all judgment to the Son. And that's a good point. David brings up there is that it's clear over and over and over again in the Old Testament that. That Yahweh is the judge of all the earth. He will always do. Right. They understood that. Look, this is like a core thing in. In. In. In Christian revelation and the revelation of God. Core thing is that God is the ultimate judge, and everybody will ultimately face the ultimate judge, including you, Alex. And what Jesus is saying here is that the Father has delegated that judgment to the Son, but yet it is Yahweh who is ultimately the judge. God is the judge and Jesus is the judge. And so there's no question here about. Is Jesus God? Did Jesus claim to be God? Not only do you have the explicit statements of Jesus and him taking the divine prerogatives that only belong to God, but you have just these. These moments littered throughout John's Gospel, but all the Gospels where Jesus is clearly identifying himself. Clearly. Because they understood God's working. Jesus like, yeah, right, my father's working. So am I allowed to do that because I'm God? There's no question.

[James White]

James says this in his book the Forgotten Trinity. I believe he says, difference in function does not indicate inferiority in nature.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[James White]

And I think that's what you see on display right there in John, chapter five. There is perfect unity and harmony of thought and mission and execution of that mission between Jesus and the Father. Right. This attempt to somehow drive a wedge in the identity among the persons of the Godhead is also an attempt to drive a wedge in their corresponding roles in mission with one another. I think it's subtle, it's suggestive, but it's still an attack on the being and the nature of God as well. Upon the mission of Christ himself.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[James White]

So even though it's being brought across in a very polite manner.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[James White]

It's still an assault on the nature of God's being and then the mission of Christ in the world and the complete unity and cohesion between the persons of the Trinity.

[David Wood]

Yeah. And I think that one of the things that might help Alex, if Alex Was. And I'm not going to say he's not. But if he's truly trying to be a man of integrity and disciplined and say, I want to engage my opponent and really deal with their argumentation. Two points that I think would really help Alex here in, in terms of answering these questions for himself is, number one, a robust study of the Trinity from the Scriptures, a robust study of the Trinity, and a deep study of the Incarnation itself. Those two points of doctrinal contact would genuinely help with a lot of the questions that Alex has as he tries to attack the Christian faith and dismantle.

[Alex O'Connor]

It, if all judgment is given to him. And keep in mind the Old Testament, Yahweh is the one who's going to judge. And you're saying, yeah, but it's given to Jesus.

[Zachary Conover]

Yeah.

[Alex O'Connor]

And he says it's so that we honor him the same way we honor the Father.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[Zachary Conover]

Okay, so I want to talk about the Sabbath moment, because this is quite important. This is in John chapter 5 as well. This whole episode sort of hinges on the idea that Jesus is working on the Sabbath, says, my Father is working, so am I. So your interpretation of this is to say that, well, my Father in heaven, that is God, is working on the Sabbath, so so am I, therefore I'm God. This story of Jesus working on the Sabbaths is reported in multiple Gospels. In Mark's Gospel, when he's found working on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees say to him, this is Mark, chapter two. Look, why are they doing that? That which is not lawful on the Sabbath? What does Jesus say in response? Have you not heard what David did? Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need of food, and they enter the house of God and take the food which is not lawful on the Sabbath. So Jesus justifies his breaking of the Sabbath by referring to another human being who also broke the Sabbath. He then tells us that the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath. A very famous quote. The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. Bearing in mind that although the Son.

[Alex O'Connor]

Of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

[Zachary Conover]

Yes. Bear in mind that although in the Greek, the definite article is given to Jesus when he uses the term Son of Man, it's complicated by the fact that Son of Man without the definite article is just a way of saying human beings. So there are some scholars, such as Morris Casey, who believe that these Son of Man sayings have been corrupted, at least some of them, from originally saying a Son of man or the Son of man in the sense of just meaning a human being. Now, why would that interpretation be correct here? Because Jesus says, firstly when he's accused of breaking the Sabbath, he says, well, David did the same thing. Was David sinning? The implication is no, which means it can't just be God who breaks the Sabbath. He then says that the Sabbath was made for man. Humans, not humans or man for the Sabbath. Therefore, he says the word is therefore. The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. If the Son of Man in some context just means a human being, that's how early church fathers interpreted it. For example. In fact, some of the early church fathers translated the Son of Man as the Son of Mary because they thought it was Jesus, indicating that he was the son of a human being and he was only born of Mary. Given that undertone for this phrase, the Son of man, how else can I read this passage except Jesus saying, yeah, I'm working on the Sabbath, so did David. And that wasn't wrong. The Sabbath was made for mankind.

[James White]

Oh, this is intriguing to me.

[David Wood]

Yeah, yeah. So I like this. It's. It's really interesting what Alex seems to be missing. And there's a lot, by the way, we can deal with in the definite article. Alex, I don't know if he reads Koine Greek or he's taking classes. It seems like he might have taken some preliminary stuff. I'm not exactly sure about that. But he needs to spend some time with a Greek scholar with a lot of the questions that he has regarding a definite article, because he's. He's making mistakes. And James points that out in his last broadcast. He's making mistakes that, that. That, you know, typically people can make who don't know a lot about the Greek. Now, in. In Mark, chapter two, this is what it says in verse 23. One Sabbath, he was going through the grain fields. And as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. And the Pharisees were saying to him, look, why are you they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath? And he said to them, have you never read what David did when he was in need and was hungry? He and those who were with him, how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him. And he said to them, the Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The Son of Man is Lord, even O of the Sabbath. And now here's the point. There's a lot that can be said here, but just because it's, you know, one show. Let's not spend a ton of time on this one. Go back to the debate. But in John's gospel, John 5, John's point, clearly without question, and Alex didn't really deal with it. He didn't because it's, it's clear on the face of it is that Jesus is clearly saying, the Father works in the Sabbath, I work in the Sabbath because God works on the Sabbath. And that's not a problem. That's what John's point is. And when you switch now to Mark, chapter two, and it's a different discussion regarding David and we're talking about priests here and what it's not lawful except anybody but the priest. And David does it with his companions. I'm doing it with my companions. I think Jesus clearly numerous times, not think I know Jesus clearly numerous times in his ministry. And I don't think Alex could dispute this is confronting their misinterpretation of the law of God and how they're, how they're actually beating people over the head with their violations of it. So you can look in the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus is clearly addressing their abuse of the law of God there. Jesus in, in Mark, in Matthew chapter 15 clearly brings up and identifies a teaching that they have a tradition that they have that's in conflict with the word of God. What, what they said about what you could do with your money and your parents, and this is for the temple. What does Jesus say? He says, you say, and then he quotes their tradition. And he says, but Moses says, and he says, thus you invalidate the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You draw near to me with your lips, but your heart is far from me. He quotes that Jesus deals with the Jews. Misinterpretation, misapplication of the law of God in his ministry. He does it numerous times. He confronts them over it. And in this case they're accusing him of violating the Sabbath. But he's pointing out, actually you guys are wrong about how you're interpreting and applying the Sabbath laws. Because don't you remember that David did this very thing and he fed his companions of the bread that only the priests could eat. And what is Jesus doing there, by the way? He's clearly identifying himself with David and the priests and the priest's ability to messianic undertones to feed himself and his companions. What does the New Testament do It says that Jesus is the true and perfect Israel. Jesus is true Adam and perfect Adam, David's descendant. He is the true and perfect king. He is a true and perfect prophet. He is a true perfect priest. That is throughout the New Testament. And so Jesus clearly here, Mark's emphasizing Jesus, confrontation of their misinterpretation, misapplication of the law of God. He brings up an instance of David and the priest bread and David feeding his companions. And he's like, what do you think David did? What I'm doing, so who do you think I am? It's not that Jesus is saying what Alex is trying to make him say, that any human being can break the Sabbath. That's not the point that Jesus is making in any either instance.

[James White]

Right.

[David Wood]

One is clearly identification of Jesus as God. And God works on the Sabbath, so Jesus can work on the Sabbath. And one is Jesus clearly identifying himself with David and the right and role of Jesus to be able to do the same thing that David did, that David did, where David feeds his companions, just like I'm doing on the Sabbath. You're wrong about your application of the Sabbath laws. That's Jesus confronting them, not saying any old person can violate the the Sabbath that happened.

[James White]

Part of this too is the beauty of understanding the whole narrative of Scripture. I mean, the passage from 1st Samuel that's being pulled on here really is fulfilled in Christ in so many beautiful and wonderful layers, like he is. And he came to redefine what it means to be a priest in the house of God.

[David Wood]

Right.

[James White]

So in their abuse of it, he's showing what it truly meant. Right. So you have all of these unbiblical traditions, and then he confronts them by saying, you know, I desire mercy, not sacrifice. Knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. There's someone in need, there's human need that requires mercy on the Sabbath. And you can't be bothered to lift a finger to help for the sake of your traditions.

[David Wood]

Because I can't work.

[James White]

Yes, you're violating what the law was always pointing to in the first place.

[David Wood]

Yes.

[James White]

And then pointing to himself saying, no, I'm actually the priest. I've come to my temple. I have a right because I gave the law. Hello. Like, it's my law. I can, I can do with it as I please. And I'm telling you that I am redefining what it means to be a priest. I'm going to fill my house, which is this new creation, with new priests, faithful priests, better priests, and I'm going to give them the living Word for all eternity that is not only going to preserve their lives, but is going to preserve the lives of all those who hear them. Yeah, as well. So there's so much more going on than just this little narrative here. Like, this is Jesus talking about, okay, here's what it means to be a priest. Here's what that was pointing to all along. And I am totally upending your understanding of what it means to have rest in God. Right. This Sabbath, this ordinance that you've set aside to serve yourself, it's actually taken up by me. And I'm showing you what it truly means. And I'm showing you the meaning of it in terms of dispensing it for the use of my people.

[David Wood]

Right.

[James White]

It's a new creation and I'm the Lord of it and the priest of it. And these are my priests in my home that serve me.

[David Wood]

Powerful stuff happening. And again, we could do a discussion on this for days of how the New Testament writers are clearly over and over again trying to emphasize that Jesus is the fulfillment of the foreshadowing of the Old Testament, roles, responsibilities and the prophecies that are direct right to him. The the who, the what, the where, the why, the when, the how, all of that is, is foretold ahead of time. And Jesus, the fulfillment. They're clearly saying this was to fulfill this, this was to fulfill that. And they even do things that aren't so obvious. Like Matthew does something unique where he'll do the obvious. Like this was to fulfill what was spoken to the prophet Isaiah quotation. But then he does something that's not so obvious to a newcomer to the Bible. Like the average gentile, never read the Bible, no connection to the Bible opens up Gospel, the Gospel according to Matthew. He's not going to realize, or she's not going to realize as they're reading the first four chapters of Matthew's gospel, what is going on with Matthew? A Jewish person who knows the history and story of Israel will know that. Matthew isn't being explicit. He's not saying, hey, you know, when, you know, I called my son from Egypt and that was to fulfill that. And you know, there's this wilderness wandering thing Jesus does, you know, 40 and everything. Like the gentile who just never read the Bible doesn't know what's going on there. But clearly Matthew knows and he's explaining to you. Yeah, the whole history of Israel here is being summarized at the beginning of Jesus ministry and Jesus, hey, where Israel fails, Jesus succeeds.

[James White]

And understand the Jewish story.

[David Wood]

Exactly. It's there's so much going on beneath the layers there. It's not just text. But here's the thing. What atheists will typically do is, is first of all, they'll look for contradictions. Now, why contradictions matter in an atheistic worldview is anybody's guess. Is anybody's guess. But the second thing they'll do is going to. They'll do it by way of proof texting. Now, obviously, as I've said many times before, in order to demonstrate points from the Bible, you have to have a text that is a proof. That's no question about that. But it ha. It ought to be in context. Right. It ought to be meaningful within the text itself. You ought to be pulling from the text what it actually says. But proof texting can be dangerous, especially if you are a new atheist, because you will just say, well, let me find a verse over here that seems to say one thing and let me find another verse over here that seems to say another thing. And if you just kind of make them collide together, maybe we can impress people to deconstruct or something. Not impressive. And in the points being made here in the cross examination or open question period are not impressive. They're not. They're not impressive at all. Not at all. And I hope we can get more. Go ahead.

[Douglas Wilson]

I was just gonna say this is a fascinating conversation. I don't know I've ever heard a debate on these questions he's asking. I think this is probably why this is gaining so much traction. Yeah, there's all these atheists, like, yeah, that's got him, you know.

[David Wood]

Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

And there hasn't been a lot of Christian interaction with these questions. I will say respectfully to Alex, I really struggling to understand the points he's trying to make.

[David Wood]

And I, it's not overly impressive. Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

And kudos to David because I can tell you can kind of sense with David. He's kind of frustrated, but trying to, like, answer, you know, his questions. But like, I'm just, it's like I'm just really struggling. Like, where you, where are you going with this? What's the point?

[James White]

You're trying to make a point.

[David Wood]

You're making a good point too, in, in terms of. This is unusual for an atheist debate against a Christian on this subject. And atheists may be looking at this going, oh, man, that's a, that's an interesting gotcha. But if you know the whole history of Christianity and the Christian church's debates with Unitarians. Yeah, this is just threadbare. This is just as old as the hills. I mean, if you. You can like it again, just bring.

[James White]

It up because two phrases I'm unfamiliar with.

[David Wood]

Apologia. Apologia Church. One of our elders is Dr. James White Bear. We'll make sure he sees this.

[James White]

Just clip that part.

[David Wood]

Dr. James White. Almost 200 moderated public debates around the world with the best of different worldviews. John Dominique Cross. And actually, when unbelieving Bible scholar John Shelby spun. Those are cool names. Yeah, they are cool names. Speaking of liberal Bible scholars and, you know, famous atheists, he was actually scheduled to debate Christopher Hitchens. And then a couple weeks before the debate, Christopher Hitchens got esophageal cancer. And when it wasn't able to do the debate with James, which I'm so sad about that because I would have loved to have seen that debate. And. And what my. And Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, atheists, Dan Barker, you name it, Silverman, all that. But. But James has also debated, I don't even know how many times, Unitarians. And so when we hear these questions, while atheists may be impressed by them, if you've been within the context of the Christian church debating heresy, then you've heard this stuff. It's as old as the hills, and it's over and over and over again. So while an atheist might go, hey, that's a good gotcha. It's like the Christian church looks and goes, do you know that we've refuted that, you know, 10 days, 10 times till Sunday? Like, it's just been over and over again. And so it's, you know, maybe for us it's not overly impressive, or mankind.

[Zachary Conover]

Is Lord of the Sabbath. If it's only God who can work on the Sabbath, then why does Jesus appeal to David?

[Alex O'Connor]

You're talking about two completely different passages. You're talking about this situation and Jesus. I was talking to a Jewish guy in Israel, and he's not a Christian, but he said, hey, Jesus way won. Jesus way actually won. Jesus, Jesus. The way of Jesus won.

[Zachary Conover]

Oh, sure.

[Alex O'Connor]

He viewed Jesus as like a religious reformer sent against religious extremism and so on. There Jesus talking about, like, preserving life and so on. The accusation in John. In John 5 is different. But I mean, I'm pointing to John because you're going with John. In John 5, he says the Father's working and so he gets to work too.

[Zachary Conover]

That's right.

[Alex O'Connor]

And again, if you read this, there's no way to interpret this as Jesus claiming to be some, you know, just another Human being or something like that.

[Zachary Conover]

Well, I don't think Jesus is claiming to be just another human being. But although we are talking about two different passages here, if the reason that Jesus gives. Because bear in mind there are multiple ways to interpret this. When he says, well, God's working, so why not I. There are multiple ways to interpret this. Either Jesus is again, quite explicitly claiming to be God, which again, is quite mystifying, given that this doesn't seem to provoke the same kind of reaction. If it's well recognized that God is the Lord of the Sabbath and Jesus is claiming himself as a title, the Son of Man, to be Lord of the Sabbath, or in this instance, just claiming the authority, because God is working, so. So am I. It's strange that it doesn't cause the same kind of fuss.

[David Wood]

But wait, wait. Sorry, Alex. What? This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him.

[James White]

Just a mild fuss.

[David Wood]

Mild fuss. They were seeking all the more to kill him because not only was he breaking the Sabbath and calling God his own father, making himself what, Equal with God. This is not a mild fuss. They wanted to kill him because he was calling himself God. Equal with God. Calling himself God.

[James White]

And I know this comes up.

[Douglas Wilson]

Blasphemy.

[James White]

I know this comes up. Exactly. It comes up like Psalm 82, John 10.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[James White]

Like it comes up.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[James White]

And that's the same point is being made there. They picked up stones to kill him.

[David Wood]

Stone him in John 8 as well.

[James White]

Because they found him guilty of blasphemy, just like at his trial. What was the accusation? You've heard what he said.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[James White]

It's blasphemy.

[David Wood]

Right.

[James White]

It's a death penalty.

[David Wood]

Yeah. Or when they freak out when Jesus says he's. He's going to come on the clouds. They knew what that was about. They knew the Son of Man passage from Daniel 7, 13, 14. They know about this divine being in Daniel 7, 13, the one who has right to rule. They knew. They knew exactly what Jesus was doing, and that's why they freaked out. And that's ultimately what led to his death. But come on. I'm sorry, I. I don't understand. What, what. What's with the minimizing? What else can you do in terms of a level of freaking out that is extreme than want somebody to die? Yeah.

[James White]

It excited murder.

[David Wood]

So it's. I don't see that as a mild fuss at all.

[Zachary Conover]

The other interpretation is that Jesus is saying, well, if God can work on the Sabbath, why not anybody else? If God can work, why not me? And that, that just doesn't, your interpretation just doesn't square with me, with Mark's gospel. I mean, the question I asked was, why does he refer to David in justifying his gospel?

[Alex O'Connor]

We're talking about what. Yes, you can have, have you noticed.

[James White]

That he does that too? Just real quick, just one remark, like when he says, that doesn't square with my interpretation of Jesus as it relates to the Gospel of Mark, when, like Mark is intentionally emphasizing the humanity or the human elements of Christ's incarnation.

[David Wood]

Right.

[James White]

You see a lot more of that in that. So he's kind of using the different gospels to his advantage too, in his.

[David Wood]

Presentation and interrogation and not allowing them to ultimately speak and to do it exegetically and to do it in the light of all of Scripture. Because, you know, one of the things I think Alex should at least grant if he wants to steel man his opponents and not straw man them, is that if this is the revelation of the one true and living God, if it's his revelation, God gave this revelation through prophets and apostles, then it's ultimately one master storyteller.

[James White]

Right?

[David Wood]

Right. And that has to be granted. Look, again, even if you say I don't believe it, fine. Don't for now say you don't believe it. That's fine. But as a, as a, as a presupposition from the revelation itself is it's one master storyteller. So that means from the beginning of the revelation to the end of the revelation, it's the same true and living God giving the revelation. Meaning that when you're reading this, you have to at least say, okay, I'm going to grant the presupposition that this is the one true God giving one story. It's his story of redemption. So I have to read it all in context. So again, when you're reading John 5 and then Mark chapter two, you have to read it in its immediate context and in its overarching revelation or context that it's one master storyteller giving the story and it's a unified revelation. Again, we're not saying that you accept it as of yet. Yeah. We're saying if you're going to steel man your opponent and not straw man them, then you must say, okay, it's one storyteller. What's the whole revelation saying here? If I want to interpret it correctly? So here's some more.

[Alex O'Connor]

So Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. In his defense, Jesus said to them, my Father is always at his Work to this very day. And I too am working for this reason. They tried all the more to kill him, not only because he was breaking the Sabbath, but was even calling God his own Father, making himself with God.

[Zachary Conover]

Yes.

[Alex O'Connor]

And so that's when Jesus goes. And if he's trying to say that. If he's trying to say something about it's okay to break the Sabbath, or you don't have to work on the Sabbath anymore, or something like that, it's a strange direction to go in that he makes all these claims. He can do only what the Father sees. Because whatever the Father does, the Son also does. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. The Father judges no one, but is entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father. That's when he goes on to say that he's the one who raised the dead. Time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he's granted the Son also to have life in Himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. And then he goes on to say that the dead are going to be raised. My point is zeroing in on one little point and saying, ah, well, you know, maybe this is just. You're missing kind of the big picture.

[David Wood]

This is.

[Zachary Conover]

But I'm noticing the words granted and David, great job.

[David Wood]

Good point, by the way. For real. I just love listening to all that. It's just awesome. Some of the. My favorite Gospel is the Gospel according to John. And it's because of things like that. It's just. It's just so powerful for someone who loves Jesus and doesn't deserve Jesus to hear that is just. It's just epic. I just. My favorite thing to do is to hear all that. And David's exactly right. Alex, you're missing the point. Keep reading. You want to find a contradiction and want to find some way to cause these passages to collide with each other to show this big gotcha point when you're not even reading it in its immediate context, its overall context. But you're not reading the rest of John, chapter five, which clearly is Jesus saying things about himself and his role and his responsibility that he is not supposed to have if he's not God. Because don't forget that Jesus lands in history as the fulfillment of all of that revelation from the Jews. And so the Jews have an idea in their mind, based upon revelation, as to who their God is, what he's like, and what he does. And now Jesus steps into history in the context of all of that revelation and their understanding and is saying, yeah, everything that we believe about Yahweh, that's me. That's what I do and my responsibility. And then Alex, of course here, in a moment here is gonna go, yeah, but, but granted to Jesus. But. But. But given to Jesus. And it's like, Alex, did you read John chapter one, where it says the word became flesh? This is the incarnation we're talking about. So what would you expect the perfect humanity, who was also fully, truly divine, to do in his ministry? What would he look like? What would he say? What would he act like? How would he respond to the Father? How would the Father respond to him in the incarnation, in this beautiful story of redemption, of the perfect humanity, the true and perfect Israel coming to bring redemption? What would it look like? I would say, well, it'd look like Jesus, just like that, because it's an incarnation.

[James White]

So he's also coming at the idea, I think he says this and in other places that, you know, God gave him the name that is above all names. In the same way that you're pointing out, like, this wasn't his. It was bestowed upon him. Whereas it just has to do with Jesus finishing the course of his work and rising from the dead and ascending as the Lord.

[David Wood]

Right.

[James White]

That's the title that's given to him in a way that wasn't his prior to the fulfillment and completion of his mission.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[James White]

And the Messianic mission brought to its fullness and completion.

[David Wood]

Talk so much about this. It's so beautiful. It truly, truly is beautiful. When you talk about Jesus and him being given the name that is above every name, highly exalted. We can't forget that when Jesus comes into his ministry, he came to do what? Seek and save that which is lost. And Jesus came to lay his life down for his sheep. Jesus came so that we, according to all New Testament theology and soteriology, so that we'd be united to him. We'd be united to him, credited his perfect obedience and righteousness, having our sin not counted against us because he actually takes the penalty that is due to us. Jesus came to represent his people, which means in his ministry. You see, again, which gospel do you want to pick? Let's say pick Matthew, especially because it's identifying so much of the fulfillment of Jesus as from the Old Testament. But Jesus is clearly living his life in place of his people, coming as a sacrifice for them, and he's coming to obey what they didn't obey. So the whole story of humanity, according to the Bible in Genesis is God creates all things. Then he creates the pinnacle of his creation, his image in the garden. And it's the imago dei, the image of God. It's the peak of his creation. The humanity is the peak. It's over all creatures. It's over all of creation, as a matter of fact, clearly, because man is the pinnacle of God's creation, the crown of his creation, of his creative activity, that creation week. When man falls, all of creation falls with him. Because man represents all of creation, because he's the climax, he's the peak of it all. He is the image of God. But what did Adam do? Adam is created innocent. He's not. He's not now fulfilled in his righteousness yet. He hasn't. He hasn't yet fully obeyed God, covenantally obeyed God. And so what does he do? God says, you did you disobey? You die, right? And so he does disobey. And then of course, spiritual death enters humanity that day. Then ultimately physical death, all of creation falls with Adam. Jesus comes in as the true and perfect Adam, and he fulfills and obeys where what Adam didn't. And so this is beautiful. So Adam dies in the garden because of his sin, and, and Jesus, because he obeys, he is raised because he was covenantally obedient and faithful, right? Resurrection isn't guaranteed, get that? Death is guaranteed for covenantal unfaithfulness. But Jesus being raised, that's not guaranteed. He's raised because he's covenantally faithful. The Father looks at the life of Jesus, looks at the sacrifice, looks at his obedience in the place of his people, and he is vindicated to be the Son of man, the Messiah himself, God in human flesh. And he is raised from the dead because he is covenantally faithful and obedient where Adam was not. And so what do you have to see in the life of Jesus according to the biblical revelation that the perfect humanity has to be covenantally faithful. He has to be submissive to God, he has to obey God, he has to honor God, he has to fulfill the law of God. And so when you see in the life and ministry of Jesus where Jesus is as the humble humanity, obeying the Father, laying aside prerogatives as God himself, obedient to the Father in every way, Submitting himself to the Father, being given authority by the Father, all of that, you go, that's what the perfect humanity is supposed to be like. That's what it has to look like. If it's going to be the same story of redemption, it has to be exactly like this. So all the questions are like, why did the Father have to grant it to him? Because he's the perfect humanity, because he's coming to represent his people, because he's coming to do it perfectly. What Alex is missing the whole way through this is the incarnation. That's what he's missing.

[Zachary Conover]

Given authority there. This idea that Jesus raises the dead is not exactly clear in John chapter five. Like if we, if we look at the words that actually dealing with here, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son. Presumably the Father could judge if he wanted to. He's made a decision to entrust this to the Son, meaning that the Son doesn't have this power necessarily. If the Son has this power necessarily, it's not something that needs to be.

[David Wood]

Entrusted to him in the way because of the incarnation. Jesus, look. And Alex quotes from John 17. I've heard him a few times quote from a number of different broadcasts that he's done. Listen, listen to this from John 17, because Alex is familiar with this John chapter 17. When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, father, and the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. Now watch this verse 4. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. This is a powerful intimate moment between Jesus and the Father that matches, by the way, John chapter one. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He is the monogones, Theos, the unique and one of a kind God, who is in the bosom of the Father, who has revealed the Father to us. He has exegeted the Father, explained the Father to us. Now what do you have here in this text, Jesus is saying something that if he's not Yahweh, he's not supposed to be saying, and that is this. Father, glorify me with the glory that I shared with you. So Jesus is clearly speaking, he's speaking of his pre existence here and he's speaking of the relationship that he had to the Father. And he's saying something that, guess what? You're not supposed to say if you're not yahweh. Because Isaiah 43:11 says, I, even I am the Lord, besides me, there is no Savior before me, There was no God form, neither shall it be after me. And he says that he is Yahweh. And he says, I don't share my glory with anyone else. So if Yahweh doesn't share his glory with anyone else, then why does Jesus say that he had it with the Father? And he's saying, father, now glorify me with yourself in your presence, with the glory I shared with you before the.

[James White]

World was to throw another log on that fire. Why does he also say that eternal life is dependent upon joint knowledge of both the Father and himself?

[David Wood]

Exactly. Exactly. And that's all right there in the first five.

[James White]

That's first three.

[David Wood]

First. Yeah, first five verses. All of that's there that we just spoke about. But here's my point. I brought all that up for a reason. Alex is having a real hard time with, well, if he's the Son of God and he's divine, shouldn't he just be able to do all these things anyways? Again, Alex, you're forgetting things like this that you are familiar with, that he had this glory. He shared the glory. He is the eternal God. He is Yahweh. But now you're in the Incarnation portion, right? So you're like, well, if he is God himself, then what's all the stuff he's asking from the Father because of the Incarnation, because he is fulfilling his messianic and role for humanity. He's clearly submitting himself to the Father. And of course, he has all power and all authority and life in Himself, and He is the light of the world. But don't forget, you're talking about the Incarnation. It is truly God and truly man. That's what you're missing. So all these questions just dissipate when you consider the true humanity and true divinity of Jesus happening in this incredibly amazing moment in human history where you have the God, man. And yeah, and I grant this. Look, I'm not even gonna pretend to fully comprehend the Incarnation because it is something that, though you can apprehend in terms of the details and the facts, you cannot and will not completely comprehend the glories of the Incarnation. And so, yeah, you'll go, this is strange. Like, God is getting whipped and dying on a cross, and Muslims look at that. And Go. Well, if Jesus is God, how does God die? It's like the incarnation.

[James White]

Once again.

[David Wood]

The incarnation. Yeah. That sounds crazy. How does God just get manhandled by his own creatures? The Incarnation. And yes, that's mysterious and it is incomprehensible and it doesn't make any sense.

[James White]

Yeah. The God who created the wood that they nailed him to.

[David Wood]

Right.

[James White]

Mind blowing, right?

[David Wood]

It's mind blowing. And so what makes all the questions dissipate is the incarnation. And. And that's what Alex is not considering. Okay. But I want to just. We're over time now, but I. I wanted to point to. To two points of contact. Two points of contact. Yeah. I'd love to do more than this. I'd love to do more than this, but I'm gonna try to resist. Alex loves to hang out in John. He misses so so much in. In John. But, you know, he'll look at something like John 8:58, and it. You know where Jesus says, by the way, Jesus doesn't just say I am in one place in John 8. He says it twice. Unless you believe ego ami, you will die in your sins. Unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins. Then he also says, before Abraham was I am. Now, what's their response to him saying, before Abraham was I am? They pick up stones to kill him. Of course. I've heard Alex do the same old Unitarian stuff Jehovah's Witnesses do, and everyone else. And they go, if you go to Exodus, where the burning bush is there, God says, ego. So where's the haon part? It's like you're missing the point. Keep reading. In John, by the way, they apparently knew what Jesus was saying. They weren't like, hey, now, Jesus, you said, ego ami, but where's the haon? Right? They picked up stones. Yeah. To kill him. Apparently they weren't looking for that. Where's the haon? But if you keep reading, In John, chapter 10, of course it happens again. He says. He says, I and the Father are one. They pick up stones to kill him. And they got what he was saying. So he says, many good works have I shown you from the Father, for which of these do you stone me? And they said, for your good works we stone you not. But for blasphemy and that you, being a man, make yourself God. Now, we're not going to get into the psalm right now and explain all that just to make the point. This keeps happening in John. It keeps happening. He's clearly identifying himself as God. John is calling him God. Calling him the creator of all things. And then in John 8, you're doing it. John 10, you're doing it. But then you get to John chapter 12 and, and note, note this. In John chapter 12, two chapters after John chapter 10, it says, in verse 36, it says, while you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light. When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him. So that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled. Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed. Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, he has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their heart and turn. And I would heal them now. So stop. Anytime you get a New Testament author gospel quoting the Old Testament, you should go back to see, what was that about? Where's that from? And if you do your homework in John, not only is John calling Jesus God, the creator of all things, not only is John showing all the moments where Jesus is clearly identifying himself as Yahweh, not only do you have the I am statements that are happening throughout the Gospel of John, but you have this moment here that's explicit. It's explicit, and this is a beautiful moment. What is John quoting from here? What's John quoting from? The famous scene where Isaiah catches a glimpse of the glory of Yahweh and the worship before Yahweh. This is a very famous scene in the Jewish Scriptures in the revelation of God, John quotes from it. And here's what you want to say. If you were to ask Isaiah from that text, Isaiah, whose glory did you see when you wrote that and you had that experience? Whose glory did you see? What was that? He would say? Yahweh. I saw the glory of Yahweh. That's clearly what's happening in Isaiah, chapter six. You see that? Now watch what John does with it. He quotes from that famous scene that Isaiah would have said, that's the glory of Yahweh. And what does he say? Verse 41 of chapter 12. Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. And there's no other way in the context that you're going to get any other person being identified there than Jesus. So if you ask Isaiah, whose glory did you see? Isaiah, Yahweh. You asked John, whose glory did he see? He'd say, Jesus. He saw Jesus. So that's the pre existence of Christ and that's worship of the one true God, Yahweh. So you have, you're like, well, does. Does John say that Jesus is God? Is Jesus calling himself God? I think it's apparent. It's obvious. We're 12 chapters in, and it's over and over and over again. And it's explicit here where John is telling you remember that scene? Yeah, that was Jesus. Isaiah saw Jesus, no question. But then there's more. You go one chapter over, that's John 12. We've already done John 8, John chapter 10. We're 12 now we're 13 in John chapter 13.

[James White]

Are you going to the one where he says, I'm telling you beforehand?

[David Wood]

Yes.

[James White]

Yeah, yeah, I was, I was thinking about that one.

[David Wood]

It's stacks on stacks on stacks, yeah. Verse, chapter 13, verse 18. He says, I'm not speaking of all of you. I know whom I have chosen, but the Scripture will be fulfilled. He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me. I am telling you this now before it takes place, that when it does take place, here it is. You may believe that ego eimi. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me. This is powerful, powerful. We could do this for days and days and days. Here Jesus is using the same verbal formulation that Isaiah uses in Isaiah 43:10. Go check it out later, everybody. It is the same construction where you have Yahweh in Isaiah. And this, by the way, here's what's important about Isaiah. This section, if you read Isaiah, that section, say chapters 40 through 46, it's the throwdown between Yahweh and the false gods.

[James White]

He's able to tell the future.

[David Wood]

And what is the main point? One of the main points, I should say that I. That Yahweh says about the false gods of humanity is that they can't tell you the future because they're not in control of it. I am. I can tell you what's going to happen because I control it. And your false gods can't tell you the past or why it happened that way because they don't control the past. They don't know the purpose of it. So Isaiah, Isaiah is showing you that God's the only God. None before him, none after him, the first, the last. He doesn't even know of any other gods. And he can tell you the future before it happens because he and he alone is the true and living God. And Jesus says Here, I'm telling you this now before it takes place, that when it does take place, you may believe that ego a me, he's literally pulling from Isaiah Yahweh, and he's identifying himself as Yahweh because he can tell you the future before it happens. And he literally uses the same construction from Isaiah. And of course, we'll put a cherry on top of all of this in the I am statement portion alone, where, of course, you have in John, chapter 18. John 18 is.

[James White]

It's the one you read at the beginning.

[David Wood]

Yeah, yeah. JOHN Chapter 18. Yes, John. I just what I had at the beginning, John, chapter 18 in verse 4. Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, whom do you seek? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said to them, I am Eo me. Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, ego me, they drew back and fell to the ground. Now, one of the things that I've seen Alex do is like, well, you know, in the New Testament, the Gospels, like, there's other instances of people saying ego ami. I know, I know. But when they said ego ami, people didn't fall down in response to it. Like, I mean, so it's. It's just one thing. It's like, do you. Do you care about reading in context? Did you read John chapter one, where it said that he's God and the creator of all things? Did you read the first 12 chapters, 13 chapters? Did you read John 17 where it says that he shares the glory of Yahweh and before the world began? And did you read all of that? Did you read where when he says echo ami, they fell down because he said it. And, and you know, it's what I know. What was it? What was it like? Like in that moment where this huge, huge group of soldiers shows up, we're talking about potentially in the hundreds, shows up to come and capture Jesus, this little nothing, little preacher to them, right? Who. Who cares? And he says, I am. And they all fall down. These are like soldiers. Like, what were their conversations that night afterwards? Like, what happened? What happened to us? We're there to catch this guy. He says, I am. Then all of us just fell down. Like when they all dusted themselves off, like, what was the conversation like? Right? Like, who is this man?

[James White]

Questions I will one day ask.

[David Wood]

Yes.

[James White]

Filed out questions about.

[Douglas Wilson]

They were like, let's never speak.

[David Wood]

We gotta find one of the soldiers.

[James White]

Don't say anything.

[David Wood]

We gotta find one of the soldiers. Soldiers that came to Christ that was there and just like when we're in heaven, be like, bro, tell me, like, what was that? Like, you don't even know, man. Like, it just, it had to be an epic.

[James White]

It's a great point. I love, I love the section in John 13 that you read. I think sometimes we just get what you call mellow headed sometimes and jaded to the fact that it's not just a question of this is talking about Yahweh, who can tell the future. It's Jesus positing to his followers. Okay. Who has the ability to explain the meaning of all history to you? Like that's really. Who else can define that? Who else can explain the meaning of all the events of history, of the world over which he presides and then place himself at the center of history in the cross, which is what he's pointing to in that moment is his mission. I'm going to the cross. This is the center point, the centerpiece of history.

[David Wood]

Yeah.

[James White]

So the question is much bigger than just that. It's who can explain the meaning of everything? Who can, who can tell you what, why this happened and what it happened for? What was all that about? And then who can tell you what's to come?

[David Wood]

Yeah, right.

[James White]

If it's not me.

[David Wood]

Right? Yeah. Powerful. All right everybody, thank you guys for joining us today. Want to point everyone to one of my favorite things. Ionlayer.com I O N ionlayer.com and I've said this to you a bunch of times, but I really encourage you to do it. Go check out Google search Health Benefits of NAD Health Benefits of NAD it is nicknamed the Fountain of Youth. You have an abundance of this stuff when you're young. As you're older, it starts to drop off. I there's really no end to the benefits of it for different areas of your body. It is involved in so many biochemical processes in your system. If you went without it for more than 30 seconds, you'd be dead. And again, as you're older, you start to lose levels of this. But people have been doing IV treatments for a long time. Super beneficial, but it is also very painful. Not just the needle itself, but the process of getting NAD into your bloodstream is a difficult process and it's also very expensive. But the results are just tremendous. But ion layer figured out a way to do it through a medical patch. You put on your arm a high dose of NAD. You get into your system over 14 hours throughout the day. No pain. And you have all the benefits of NAD with a high dose and the cost is, is significantly lower than doing it through IV treatment. So go check out ionlayer.com, type in apologia all caps and the coupon code. They give you a discount. I think it's like 100 bucks. And then they also hook Apologia Radio up to help us continue to do ministry that we're doing. And so don't forget, also go to apologiastudios.com get yourself some track, get yourself some, some, some swag, some shirts, all that stuff. Apologia studios store@ apologiastudios.com oh, one more thing. Also, I always forget to say this now because it's brand new. Actually, Ion Layer has a new patch. Well, the patch isn't new, but what you can put into the patch is their glutathione patches. And do this as well. Look up health benefits of glutathione. So people do do this through IV treatment. It's one of the better ways to get glutathione into your system. It's a master antioxidant. Your body has this, produces this, but you need an abundance of it. It is just fantastic for your system. But people are getting maybe a little too much through the iv. It's like, it's like blasting your system with glutathione. So not necessarily the greatest thing for you, but you can get it through the patch. Glutathione patches with ion layer. Go check out health benefits of glutathione. Do your own research and you'll see it hugely beneficial as well.

[Douglas Wilson]

I thought you were going to grab your yellow mustard there.

[James White]

Yeah, inside joke.

[Douglas Wilson]

Sorry. Bill Rapier actually was just calling me, so I said I'll give you a shout out right now. Amtech Blades. Love Bill. He's amazing and he makes amazing blades and you can see some great battle axes. So Father's Day is coming up. So, wives, if you want to get your husbands some cool gifts for Father's Day, head on over to amtech Blades. You can put apology in the Coupon code, get 5% off your order. And Bill will also get 5% to end abortion now to help save babies. So we're grateful for him. Are you gonna, you're gonna get that?

[David Wood]

Yeah, Quickly, I'll do this. Super chat. Kic, thank you so much for the super chat. Appreciate you very much for that blessing. Kic said, love your efforts over the years and support your work to abolish abortion. Praise the Lord. Thank you. Can we schedule a discussion with you on this topic? Not a Unitarian. But I have questions on the hypostatic union and consubstantiation. Bless you three. Hey. Thank you, kic. Truly blessed. The challenge I have right now is I cannot make really any new commitments. You can ask these guys. Life is a little crazy right now with my ministry obligations and responsibilities as a pastor and then to my family. And then all the stuff with EAN right now is just way, way too overwhelming to add new stuff like this at the moment. I would say get back to me maybe in six to eight months and see how life looks. Maybe check in again because right now I can't make any new commitments to really anything like this.

[Douglas Wilson]

Well, yeah, I'll say. K. I see I've been interacting with. I don't know if it's him or her, but in the thread, they've been all up and all up in the thread today. Some kind of weird view on the Trinity and Merlin. There's a lot of confusion on what your beliefs are, Kic. That's what everyone's asking.

[David Wood]

Well, I'm sorry, I haven't seen any of that. All I can say is I can't make any new commitments right now for something like this.

[Douglas Wilson]

So anyways, of course I want to mention Heritage Defense. Bradley Pierce. Are you going to see him soon? Right?

[James White]

Bama?

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah. Is he going to Bama? Bradley Pierce said Heritage events. You can go to heritage events.org if you homeschool your children. Please sign up with them again, put apology in the coupon code to get your first month free. Super important. And then lastly, I want to mention still Stuart from page 50. He's going to be at Reform Con again. We're two weeks away from that. He's going to be there as a page 50 is a full service marketing and media production company. They want to help Christians recapture the economic and civil spheres. You can go to page 50, that's P A G E50.com and check them out. And if you're going to be at Reform Con, come say hi.

[David Wood]

Hey, guys, we are gonna head over to apologiastudios.com right now. We're gonna go to do the after show. So everybody who is all access partners with us, give us a few minutes, take a break, and then we're gonna hop on over there and actually show you something really important from Georgia and sort of walk through that with you. I think you need to hear this stuff, especially if you've been praying for this ministry and you're part of this ministry. We're gonna walk through some important stuff from Georgia. There was a pro life organization in Georgia that sent a letter to our legislators opposing equal protection for children in the womb. So as I've always said, the the greatest enemy to the end of abortion or the abolition of abortion is the pro life industry. Without question. Without question, they are the greatest enemy to the the abolition of abortion. And a number of reasons why I believe that and why I say that. You're going to see it in just a minute here. We're going to go to a private stream over there@ apologiastudios.com if you haven't signed up yet for all access, sign up. You're part of this ministry with us. You get all kinds of additional content. You help this ministry to get the gospel around the world and, and just tons of additional content. But also we have our app coming soon, which is going to be great. So sign up for all access. Join us over there. Check it out. We'll be there. That's the bear.

[Douglas Wilson]

Peace out, everyone.

[David Wood]

I'm the ninja. That's Zachary Conover. See ya. We'll catch you next week right here on Apology Radio.