Apologia Radio Episode 519 – Did Jesus Claim To Be God? Responding to Alex O'Connor

Date: April 11, 2025
Host: Jeff Durbin (Apologia Radio)
Guests/Panellists: James White, David Wood, Douglas Wilson, Zachary Conover
Context: In this episode, the panel responds to Alex O’Connor’s (Cosmic Skeptic) debate with David Wood on the question: “Did Jesus claim to be God?” The team defends the divinity of Jesus, carefully interacts with Alex’s arguments, and highlights key biblical texts relating to Christ’s nature.

Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

The episode examines whether Jesus explicitly claimed to be God, responding specifically to popular atheist Alex O’Connor’s arguments against the divinity of Christ, which recently featured in his debate with David Wood. The Apologia crew dissects O’Connor’s focus on the Gospel of John and his strategy of challenging the Christian understanding of Jesus’ identity, engaging both the theological and scriptural depth of the question.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setup: Understanding the Stakes of the Debate

• [04:24] The hosts introduce Alex O’Connor as a thoughtful, articulate, rising star among atheists, particularly adept at probing perceived inconsistencies or contradictions within the Bible.
• [06:14] O’Connor’s approach often involves scrutinizing the New Testament’s testimony about Jesus’ divinity, focusing especially on the Gospel of John and leveraging biblical scholarship that is often skeptical or secular.

2. Why Did Jesus Pray? Humanity, Divinity, and Incarnation

• [08:54] O’Connor raises the classic question: Why does Jesus, if divine, pray to the Father (e.g., before raising Lazarus), suggesting this points to subordination or distinction from God.

• [11:38] The Apologia hosts respond by emphasizing orthodox Christology:

  • Jesus is “truly God and truly man,” and his actions as the God-man reflect both his divine prerogatives and his perfect human submission.
  • “Why would you see Jesus, who has been in an eternal relationship with the Father, acting in this way in his ministry, submitting himself to the Father…? It’s in Philippians chapter two.” (David Wood, [11:40])

• [15:16] Philippians 2 and Isaiah 9 are cited to show both Christ’s divine identity (El Gibbor—“Mighty God”) and his incarnation, highlighting the nuanced relationship between equality with God and voluntary humility for the sake of salvation.

3. On Christ’s Power and Authority

• [19:10] The panel notes that Jesus’ laying aside of divine prerogatives isn’t an argument against his divinity but part of the incarnation:
  • “Paul’s whole point contextually…is that we have certain rights, but in the example of Christ, we choose to lay those things aside in the service of others.” (James White, [19:24])
  • The panel argues that difference in function doesn’t imply inequality in nature:
    • “Difference in function does not indicate inferiority in nature.” (James White, [33:06])

4. Atheist Methodology vs. Scriptural Context

• [20:13] Douglas Wilson questions the utility of demanding internal consistency from Christian scripture from an atheistic standpoint:
  • “…A true atheist is going to say, I don’t care [about Scripture].”
  • The team notes O’Connor’s approach is largely to hunt for contradictions and project a “mangled mess,” often aimed at a less biblically literate audience.

5. Jesus’ Claims in John 5 – Lord of the Sabbath and Judge

• [22:32]–[26:27]
  • O’Connor examines Jesus’ healing on the Sabbath in John 5 and his statement, “My Father is working until now, and I am working,” arguing Jesus isn’t uniquely divine but acting with delegated authority.
  • The hosts counter by showing that Jesus makes claims exclusive to Yahweh—being the judge of all (John 5:22–23), raising the dead (v. 21), and deserving the same honor as the Father.
    • “The only way you’d honor the Son the same way you honor the Father is if they have the same nature and attributes…” (Alex O’Connor, [24:03])
    • “If God has the right to work on the Sabbath, then so does Jesus. That’s Jesus’ point.” (David Wood, [31:13])

6. Mark 2, “Lord of the Sabbath,” and the Son of Man

• [36:19]–[42:14]
  • O’Connor explores whether “Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath” means something less than divinity, referencing scholarly debates over the definite article in Greek.
  • The hosts respond:
    • Jesus’ citation of David eating priestly bread (Mark 2) isn’t about justifying general Sabbath-breaking, but positions Jesus as the true and better priest/king—fulfilling Old Testament foreshadowings.
    • “He is the true and perfect king…perfect priest…foreshadowed in the Old Testament.” (David Wood, [41:44])
    • Jesus upends not the Law but traditions and offers a fuller priesthood in himself.

7. Reading John – “Proof Texting” and the Unified Story

• [45:46] The hosts critique O’Connor’s and many atheists’ tendency to “proof text” without attending to overall biblical context.
  • They stress that to properly evaluate Jesus’ claims, one must read John (and the rest of Scripture) as a coherent, unified revelation.

8. Delegation, Glory, and the Incarnation

• [54:55]–[63:33]

  • O’Connor notes that Christ is ‘granted’ authority in passages like John 5 and John 17, suggesting created or conferred status.
  • The panel points out that these texts assume the incarnation—Jesus as the God-man undertaking his human mission, voluntarily subordinating himself to the Father.
    • “What would it look like? I would say, well, it’d look like Jesus, just like that, because it’s Incarnation.” (David Wood, [58:29])

• John 17 is highlighted:

  • Jesus asks to be glorified with the Father “with the glory I had with You before the world existed.”
  • “If Yahweh doesn’t share his glory with anyone else, then why does Jesus say that he had it with the Father?” (David Wood, [65:49])

9. “I Am” (Ego Eimi): Explicit Divine Claims

• [67:54]–[79:18]
  • The panel highlights Jesus’ repeated “I am” statements in John (e.g., 8:58, 13:19, 18:4–6) as direct claims to divine identity.
    • Examples:
      • “Unless you believe ego eimi, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)
      • “Before Abraham was, I am.”
      • “When Jesus said to them, ‘I am,’ they drew back and fell to the ground.” (John 18:6)
  • John 12:41 explicitly identifies Jesus as the glory seen by Isaiah (in Isaiah 6) – a reference to Yahweh.
    • “If you ask Isaiah... he would say: Yahweh. You ask John... he would say: Jesus. He saw Jesus. So that’s the preexistence of Christ and that’s worship of the one true God, Yahweh.” (David Wood, [72:34])
  • The hosts note these repeated episodes where Jesus’ divine self-designation provokes blasphemy accusations and attempts on his life, showing that his audience understood his claims to be God.

10. Incarnation as the Interpretive Key

• [63:33], [68:16]
  • Summarizing, the hosts assert that O’Connor’s questions are resolved in light of the mystery of the incarnation.
    • “What makes all the questions dissipate is the incarnation. And that’s what Alex is not considering.” (David Wood, [68:16])

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “Difference in function does not indicate inferiority in nature.”
  —James White, [33:06]
• “If God has the right to work on the Sabbath, then so does Jesus. That’s Jesus’ point.”
  —David Wood, [31:13]
• “Unless you believe ego eimi, you will die in your sins. Then he also says, before Abraham was, I am. Now, what’s their response to him saying, before Abraham was, I am? They pick up stones to kill him. Of course.”
  —David Wood, [67:54]
• “Mind blowing, right? The God who created the wood that they nailed him to.”
  —James White, [68:16]
• “If Yahweh doesn’t share his glory with anyone else, then why does Jesus say that he had it with the Father? …He’s saying something that, guess what? You’re not supposed to say if you’re not Yahweh.”
  —David Wood, [65:49]
• “He is the monogones Theos, the unique, one of a kind God who is in the bosom of the Father.”
  —David Wood, [13:06]
• “He who has seen me has seen the Father.”
  —Referencing Jesus in John

Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Topic/Key Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:24 | Introduction to Alex O’Connor and the context of the atheist debate | | 08:54 | O’Connor’s questions on Jesus’ prayer before miracles | | 11:40 | Response: Christ’s dual nature and Philippians 2 | | 15:16 | Old Testament prophecies and divinity (Isaiah 9, Micah 5:2) | | 19:10 | Laying aside divine prerogatives and incarnation explained | | 22:32 | John 5: Jesus as judge, giver of life, honored as the Father | | 26:20 | Sabbath debate, Son of Man, and the meaning of Lord of the Sabbath | | 33:06 | Difference in function ≠ difference in nature | | 41:44 | Jesus as fulfillment of priest, king, prophet roles | | 45:46 | “Proof texting” vs. narrative context critique | | 54:55 | Delegated authority in John 17; pre-existence and shared glory| | 65:49 | John 17 and Isaiah 43: God shares glory only with Himself | | 67:54 | “I Am” statements and responses in John’s Gospel | | 72:34 | Isaiah 6, John 12:41 – identifying Jesus as Yahweh | | 73:31 | John 13 – Fulfilling prophecy as “I Am” | | 76:01 | Arrest in Gethsemane: “I Am” and soldiers falling |

Flow and Takeaways

1. Comprehensive Scriptural Defense: The Apologia panel systematically answers each of O’Connor’s skeptical arguments—from prayers to the Father, delegated authority, to supposed gospel inconsistencies—by grounding responses in the doctrine of the incarnation and Trinitarian theology.
2. Critical of Proof Texting: They emphasize the necessity to read the Bible in context, seeing the revelation about Christ as unified and intentional, rather than as a patchwork of contradictions.
3. Highlighting the Weight of Christ’s Claims: Through John’s Gospel and other scriptures, the team underscores how Jesus’ claims (e.g., "Before Abraham was, I am"; claiming prerogatives exclusive to God; being worshipped; sharing the Father’s glory) were understood as blasphemous unless true, as evidenced by attempts on his life.
4. Invitation to Deeper Study: They note that a robust study of the incarnation and the Trinity, as found in the scriptures, is vital for grasping why Christians see Jesus’ words and actions as unmistakably divine.

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode offers an in-depth, clear apologetic for the divinity of Jesus, carefully responding to leading atheist arguments and situating Jesus’ claims within the broad, connected story of the Bible. It’s both accessible for lay listeners and informative for those looking to understand the high points of Christian doctrine on Jesus’ identity.

End of Content Summary
[All non-content/commercial sections have been omitted.]