Apologia Radio Ep. 521

EPIC MASHUP: The Problems Facing The Church
Date: May 1, 2025
Host: Jeff Durbin (Apologia Radio)
Guests/Panelists: Doug Wilson, Gabe, James White, Knox, Virgil, Joe Boot, Toby

Overview

This episode brings together leaders from Apologia Radio and CrossPolitic for an energized, deeply theological roundtable on the critical challenges facing today’s Church. The panel addresses the need for biblically-rooted engagement with culture, the pitfalls of trend-driven Christianity, and the overdue resurgence of theonomy (the authority of God’s Word over all of life). Woven with camaraderie, humor, and hard-hitting critique, the discussion is packed with practical exhortations for Christians to move from academic sanctuaries into bold, faithful action amidst rapid cultural and political shifts.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Church’s Cultural Blindness and Call to Action

00:01–01:39

• Identifying Modern Pharisees: Toby parallels the Church’s current situation with Matthew 16—skilled at interpreting academic theology, yet blind to the “signs of the times.”
• White Identity and Barriers: Gabe notes that a stronghold of "whiteness and white identity" limits cultural progress within the Church.
• From Ivory Towers to Cultural Engagement: Toby critiques how theological scholarship often fails to incarnate its truths practically:

  “The church, rich in theory… has lingered in academic sanctuaries and ivory towers, failing to translate its lofty doctrines into a tangible and practical cultural apologetic.” (00:28 - Toby)

• Worldview Youth Academy: Introduced as a bridge to train Christians for real-world apologetic and culture-shaping work.

2. Public Theology: Why the Church Can’t Stay Silent

01:39–02:59

• Gospel Mandate for Public Square Action: Doug insists:

  “If the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified Jesus.” (01:39 - Doug)

• Refuting Modern Political Lies: Doug challenges euphemisms around “reproductive freedom,” emphasizing the Gospel’s power and Jesus’ lordship over all.
• Exclusivity of the Gospel:

  “…there's only one way… Through Jesus Christ. And the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it.” (02:45 - Doug)

3. Unity, Humor, and Deep Roots Across Denominations

03:12–07:25

• Apologia & CrossPolitic Partnership: The teams recount mutual support and origins, with inside jokes on theological differences (Baptist vs. Presbyterian), and an emphasis on unity:

  “What matters to us is Christ and his kingdom and serving Christ together… loving each other, showing brotherly affection, and serving Christ together.” (06:25 - Doug)

• Modeling Fellowship Amidst Disagreement: The panel stresses the importance of brotherhood, even amid “serious” theological differences, as a witness to an increasingly fractured Reformed world.

4. The 2020 Shakeup: Theonomy, Political Action, and Real-World Application

07:25–15:12

• Rise of Theonomy: Previously sidelined ideas about applying God’s law to the public square have been vindicated, especially post-2020.

  “Watching 2020 happen for me has been a shocker because a lot of us… have been arguing… that maybe we should have something biblical to say about what the civil magistrate should be doing.” (07:35 - James)

• Shifts in Pro-Life Engagement: More Christians demand the state “not just protect life, but punish the people who are taking life” (12:01).

• MacArthur’s Public Shift: Doug tells how John MacArthur modeled a public theological change during COVID, moving to a theonomic, postmillennial stance.

  “When he turned, he got it right… praise the Lord, praise God. And he's with us now: sphere sovereignty and, you know, at the law of God.” (11:38 - Doug)

5. Conservative “Vibe Shift” vs. Deep Biblical Conviction

14:09–24:46

• Rise in “Red Wave” Conservatism: Gabe observes it’s now “cool” to say traditionally Christian things, but warns:

  “…I'm not sure yet it's actually cool to be a theonomist.” (14:57 - Gabe)

• Problem of Trendiness: Jeff/Knox warn—what happened with “Young, Restless, Reformed” now threatens conservative/theonomic circles:

  “If it's a Christless conservatism, it's accomplishing nothing, it's changing nothing… that movement dies because it's not rooted in the word of God and the truth.” (23:18 - Doug)

6. The Word of God vs. Respectable Arguments

24:46–28:37

• Supremacy of God’s Revelation: Gabe/James urge Christians to stand not on church history or natural law alone but unapologetically on Scripture:

  “…history is more respectable than God’s law… But the Word of God is our gold. The Word of God is our nuke.” (24:46–26:12 - Gabe)

• Practical Theonomic Application: The courage to say “thus says the Lord” is highlighted as the crucial differentiator for real cultural renewal.

7. Cultural Moment: Growing Hunger for Christianity Outside the Church

28:37–32:59

• “Even Joe Rogan Says Go to Church”: Panelists describe non-Christians and cultural figures (Joe Rogan, Richard Dawkins, Tucker Carlson) recognizing Christianity’s social glue.
• Opportunity in the Crisis:

  “Whatever’s going on… is 2020 shook them up and pulled out the foundation from under their feet. And now they're like, I think we need Christianity back.” (30:28 - Knox)

8. Simple Faithfulness as Culture-Shaping Strategy

32:59–36:01

• Low Bar, High Impact:

  “How do we make America Christian again? Well, worship God on Sunday, confess your sins, and love your family…” (33:25 - Knox)

• Winning by Demographics & Education: Using Moscow, Idaho as a case study, faithful community-building, large families, and Christian education breed long-term, generational impact.

9. The Book of Acts Blueprint for Societal Transformation

36:01–41:37

• Gospel-Driven Cultural Change: Doug lays out how early Christians changed the world:

  “They went into the public square with boldness, with love, with humility, with the truth. And they preached repentance and faith. They commanded people everywhere to repent and believe the gospel…” (36:01 - Doug)

• Contemporary Application: Today's church should emulate their prophetic, uncompromising public witness, not merely aim to “shave off moral problems.”

10. Critique of Pragmatic, Biology-Only Arguments

41:37–49:05

• Abortion & The Bible: Panel sharply critiques pro-life efforts that avoid explicit appeal to Scripture and the Gospel:

  “You can't use the Bible when you do this… Let's just focus on biology. And you got 50 years of over 65 million dead bodies right piled up underneath us.” (41:37–43:08 - Doug)

• Real Change from Faithful Preaching: Grassroots, biblically-centered activists have had more legislative and cultural impact than massive, pragmatic, biology-focused organizations.

11. The Distinctive Power of Prophetic, Scriptural Authority

47:26–49:05

• Natural Law vs. Divine Mandate: Joe Boot clarifies why only God’s authority can close the gap between what “is” and what “should be”:

  “…you can't close that distance between what is and what should be without an appeal to a transcendent authority… I'm simply coming in the name of someone else and commanding them to adhere to that and align their entire lives and their office with his mandate.” (47:26 - Joe Boot)

12. On-the-Ground Public Square Experiences & Racial Dynamics

49:24–52:19

• Testimony from Georgia Legislature: Virgil and Doug recount being attacked with ad hominems (including accusations based on race), highlighting the need for fortitude and grace in public witness.

13. Practical Steps: Personal Dominion and Real-World Change

52:22–56:32

• Gospel Works Outward: The panel challenges the “just preach the gospel” passivity:

  “No, the gospel bleeds its way out through your fingertips into society…” (52:42 - James)

• Debts, Wealth, and Kingdom Building: Christians are urged to get out of debt, accumulate resources, and build parallel institutions—practical financial dominion as a biblical mandate:

  “Because when you can deploy capital, you have power… When you own companies, you don’t shut them down because they’re yours.” (55:17 - James)

• Proverbs Wisdom as Strategy: Gabe links this approach to biblical wisdom—living free, generationally minded, and ready to bless others.

14. Essential Resources & Final Exhortation

56:37–59:48

• Study & Action: Jeff emphasizes leaning on “the shoulders of giants” (Bonson, Rushdoony, Dr. Joe Boot) rather than reinventing the wheel.

  “Some of the best writing has already been done. We don’t need people to write new books on this stuff, big tomes. We need people to fight and do.” (56:48 - Doug)

• Mission of God: Dr. Joe Boot’s “Mission of God” is specifically recommended as a definitive resource for Christians serious about cultural transformation.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“I’m tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar. He is a powerful savior. And the Gospel is not a suggestion. It is man.”
— Doug (01:39)

“If the authorities didn’t want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified Jesus.”
— Doug (01:39)

“History is more respectable than God’s law… But the Word of God is our gold. The Word of God is our nuke.”
— Gabe (24:46)

“If it’s a Christless conservatism, it’s accomplishing nothing, it’s changing nothing…”
— Doug (23:18)

“Worship God on Sunday, confess your sins, and love your family. You want to take America back… That’s how you do it.”
— Knox (33:25)

“No, the gospel bleeds its way out through your fingertips into society.”
— James (52:42)

“When you can deploy capital, you have power… When you own companies, you don’t shut them down because they’re yours.”
— James (55:17)

“Some of the best writing has already been done. We don’t need people to write new books on this stuff, big tomes. We need people to fight and do.”
— Doug (56:48)

“Russell Brand’s quoting Joe Boots, so… Maybe the rapture is coming now.”
— Doug (59:01)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:01–01:39 – Modern Pharisees, Church’s cultural blindness
• 01:39–02:59 – Necessity of public theology and Gospel boldness
• 03:12–07:25 – CrossPolitic, Apologia partnership and denominational unity
• 07:25–15:12 – Theonomy’s resurgence, post-2020 shifts, John MacArthur
• 14:09–24:46 – Trendiness vs. rooted conviction
• 24:46–28:37 – Supremacy of God’s revelation and courage in application
• 28:37–32:59 – Revival of Christianity among “outsiders,” opportunity in crisis
• 32:59–36:01 – Faithful families and the Moscow “math problem”
• 36:01–41:37 – Acts blueprint for societal change
• 41:37–49:05 – Critique of pro-life pragmatism; power of Scripture in public square
• 49:24–52:19 – Testimony from Georgia legislature, race and public witness
• 52:22–56:32 – Practical financial dominion, escaping debt, parallel institutions
• 56:37–59:48 – Key resources, final exhortations

Tone and Takeaways

The conversation remains upbeat, sincere, and bracingly direct—with humor and inside jokes punctuating bracing calls to repentance, unity, and public faithfulness. The overriding challenge: Reject trend-driven, surface-level engagement. Instead, let every part of life reflect the bold, prophetic, and practical vision of all-of-life allegiance to King Jesus—rooted not only in learning but in living, building, and sacrificing for the next generation.