Luke Bear (2:07)

Disciples.

Jeff Durbin (2:08)

I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not. Take an amazing journey to a place.

Luke Bear (2:25)

That will blow your mind and move.

Jeff Durbin (2:30)

Your heart so you will never be the same again. Then Pilate said to him, so you are a king. Jesus answered, you say that I'm a king. For this purpose I was born. And for this purpose I have come into the world to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who's of the truth listens to my voice. Pilate said to him, what is truth? What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. I'm back. And this is the gospel heard around the world. You guys can get more at apologiastudios.com that's a P O L O G I a apologiastudios.comthat's Luke the Bear.

Luke Bear (3:08)

What up?

Jeff Durbin (3:08)

I'm Jeff, the Coleman of ninja. And just quickly, when this is all done, go to apologiastudios.com, go there, see all the past episodes of Apologia Radio provoked. Geologians, cultists, they're all there. And you can sign up for all Access. When you sign up for all Access, you make all the ministry possible. Everything that's happening in Apologia Rest studios on all the platforms, all is through partners in ministry with us. Just like you. Cool story. Just briefly, I don't even know if I told you this. So Sunday, during church, church is going, worship's going, and someone came in on crutches, actually. And so I walked up to him and he was, you know, super excited to see me. And so I introduced myself, and he was, I believe he said, born and raised LDs. And three months ago, he stumbled upon our videos engaging with Mormonism, and he turned to Christ.

Luke Bear (3:56)

Wow.

Jeff Durbin (3:56)

And so now he's coming to Apologia.

Luke Bear (3:58)

Praise the Lord.

Jeff Durbin (3:58)

So praise God.

Luke Bear (3:59)

I saw that guy. Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (3:59)

And so. So there you go, guys. So everything, like, you don't get to hear the stories all the time, and we don't even hear half of them, but we do get to hear some, and they're awesome. And so people are coming to Christmas through this ministry and platform. And it's just a humbling honor to be able to be a part of something like this where God's spirit is using all of this content. It's just going 24 hours a day. People are seeing the videos, the on the street evangelism, everything going on. And Christians are being inspired and encouraged to go share their faith and to reach people for Christ. And then people who are lost are coming to Christ. So it's just a blessing. It's awesome. And I want to say thank you to everyone who's All Access who's partnered with us. But when you are all Access, you also get a bunch of additional content. You get the academy, you get the after shows, you get the Ask me anything. You get the full episodes of Collision. Just lots of stuff is there. And all of our stuff with Eli Ayala from On Presuppositional Apologetics. It's just Fantastic. So go there, get all that stuff and let's start the show.

Luke Bear (4:52)

I'll say a shout out to Darren. He's texting me. A guy named Darren texted me right now. He said he was Jehovah's witness the first 30 years of his life, so. Oh, he's watching right now.

Jeff Durbin (5:00)

Right on. What's up, Darren?

Luke Bear (5:01)

Darren.

Jeff Durbin (5:02)

All right. Okay. So lots of stuff's been happening. Look, it's been a crazy, crazy, crazy last couple of weeks.

Luke Bear (5:10)

Only weeks.

Jeff Durbin (5:11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it feels like our whole life is crazy right now. God is still faithful. God is still on his throne and the mission of the church has not changed. And though we live in a world that feels like darkness and chaos, Christ is the light and he is the king. And so he's still on his throne. And so I want to take advantage of the opportunity that we're in to preach the gospel to bring impress the crown rights of Jesus Christ into every area of life. And the Charlie Kirk thing, of course, is heartbreaking. I was surprised, Luke, as to the impact that it had on my kids.

Luke Bear (5:44)

Yeah, me too.

Jeff Durbin (5:45)

I was really surprised by that, you know, because it hit me hard and you hard that day. And you know, we're reeling over it. I go home and my daughters are just in tears. They're like weeping over it. And. And my son and.

Luke Bear (5:55)

Yeah, I'm. Yeah, I mentioned it last week. Ellie, my 10 year old, I didn't even know. She's like, who? What are you guys talking about? And we're like, charlie, Kurt.

Jeff Durbin (6:02)

Well.

Luke Bear (6:02)

And she's like, I watch his stuff all the time. And I was like, you do?

Jeff Durbin (6:05)

Yeah, right.

Luke Bear (6:06)

I didn't even know, like. Yeah, so, yeah, same thing happened with.

Jeff Durbin (6:08)

Stellar, like a while back. I was like, he's like, I love him. I watch him like every day, all day. I was like, wow, no kidding. So something to pray about is that we are going to do something this Sunday, Lord willing, if it works out. We're going to be at the Charlie Kirk Memorial and so we're filming some stuff there, so be on the lookout for that on Sunday. And there is also something in the works right now for me to sit in the chair for one of the events for Turning Point. I won't say where just yet. And to sit in that chair for the prove me wrong on the issue of it's going to be abortion is murder and it must be abolished. That's what you have to prove me wrong on. And so I'll be sitting down for one of those events for Turning a point. Hopefully for turning point. Hopefully very soon. Please be in prayer for that. And so let's get right to it. Unless you got something.

Luke Bear (6:56)

Nope.

Jeff Durbin (6:57)

Okay. Take a big breath. I thought you were about to say something. Something awesome.

Luke Bear (7:00)

No, I just. My sinuses are all stuffed up, so I'm like that. That was just me trying to breathe.

Jeff Durbin (7:06)

Yeah, I think it was the rain last night that got me.

Luke Bear (7:08)

Yeah, there's been a lot of barometric pressure going on.

Jeff Durbin (7:10)

Hey, Jimmy Kimmel. Wow. Jimmy Kimmel got in some trouble and so he's lost his position now. Apparently. He said some stupid stuff and. Well, this is, this is going to get us actually into stupid stuff when.

Luke Bear (7:24)

Stupid prizes.

Jeff Durbin (7:25)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's going to get us into the discussion about Pam Bondi in a minute. You know, actually, let's, let's start with Bondi. That would be the wise thing to do. We'll start with Bondi. So the Attorney General Bondi talking about hate speech this week. And it was surprising to see somebody willing to say something like this who's an attorney and is supposed to know the law, the law of our land. And, you know, I can't. Every time I'm on this, okay, I'm figuring out Apple computers just drive me bananas. Right. Carmen, aren't Apple stupid?

Luke Bear (7:59)

Worse.

Jeff Durbin (8:00)

They're the worst now. The best. Okay. I grew up on, you know, the other platform. And so this is just always.

Luke Bear (8:07)

I don't have patience.

Jeff Durbin (8:08)

All right, so Pam Bondi said some, some foolish things this week, and apparently she's walked back the comments. But here we go. Good discussion about free speech and the Christian worldview. This is Pam Bondi on hate speech. There's free speech and then there's hate speech. And there is no place a, especially now, especially after what happened to Charlie. In our society, do you see more law enforcement going after these groups who are using hate speech and putting cuffs on people? So we show them that some action is better than no action. We will absolutely target you, go after you if you are targeting anyone with hate speech, anything. And that's across the aisle.

Luke Bear (8:49)

Ah.

Jeff Durbin (8:52)

That'S so scary. That's so scary. It doesn't matter if a conservative is saying. It's. It's always the thing, like if, if even with some of the stuff that Trump was doing this last year, you know, you're like, you know, I like that stuff. I like banning, you know, this thing or that thing. And I like, you know, being able to say from the top like, this is evil. This is wicked. But you Know, you can't do it like a king. Our country doesn't work that way. There's a legislative process to put law, legislation into, into, into place. And so it's always when it's your team writing the, just the multiple executive orders, you're like, yeah, rah, rah, go, go. We get to do it and just put, impose everything. But when it's the other team, like when it's Obama or Biden doing the executive orders and just, you know, spinning them out there like flowers out of a hat, then you're like, you can't do that. That's against the law. And you're like, well, right. That's not how we're supposed to work. And this is the same situation when you have some works for this administration saying, we're going to ban hate speech, we're going to put you in cuffs, we're going to pursue you and go after you for hate speech. You're like, on your sides going, all right, so we're safe and we're going to stop all this crazy madness with the leftists saying dumb things. But when the next guy gets in and then it's reversed and they're saying, well, actually, those Christian beliefs, that's hate speech. Telling somebody that sin, you can't do that, that's against God's law. That's hate speech.

Luke Bear (10:15)

Well, we were experiencing that with Sleepy Joe. They were starting to do that. And you've seen it all in Canada and the U.K. now they're, they're doing all that. So what is her official position?

Jeff Durbin (10:23)

Attorney General?

Luke Bear (10:25)

Please stop saying that.

Jeff Durbin (10:28)

When you're supposed to know the law, the person, the person who's in charge of, like, you know, really enforcing the law shouldn't be saying dumb things like this.

Luke Bear (10:35)

No, I mean, we talked about this last week.

Jeff Durbin (10:36)

We.

Luke Bear (10:37)

I think part of the reason we are where we are at is because conservatives have for far too long been too tolerant of people saying stupid stuff. Now there's a way to be intolerant of people saying stupid stuff without being a tyrant. Right, Right. And so where's, where's the, where's the middle ground there where we can, we can do that? And I think a lot of people are doing that since Charlie got shot. A lot people saying, enough is enough. And I've, I think it's been great when, you know, you got idiots celebrating Charlie's assassination and then they're like, nope, you no longer have a job. Like, good on you.

Jeff Durbin (11:12)

Yeah, that's a whole, that's a, that's a, that's a realm where that makes sense. Because if you're a business owner, you own the business, it belongs to you, it's under your control. You have the right to, to serve or not serve, to sell what you like, to do what you like, to produce what you want, all that stuff. And you have a staff, you have employees, people who are servants of the business, who work for the business that you own. And it's okay for you in that context to say, no, I expect a certain level of decorum, I expect a certain honorability, I expect a certain character. I mean, that's what interview process is about, right? I mean, you're interviewing the person to say, how good are you at articulating the position? How good are you at selling this product? How good are you at showing up on time? How good are you at building this thing? What's the quality of your work? Or whatever. In the interview process, you're also looking at the person, you're saying, do I want to work with this guy next to me every single day? And sometimes you might have, you know, two really qualified people. And one guy is just weird. You know, he's got a weird personality, acts weird, you know, just says strange things. The other guy, maybe he's not as good as this guy who says the weird things, but he's, you know, he's a great character, super nice guy, you know, funny guy, sweet guy. And you're like, I'll go with the guy who's a little less qualified that I actually want to hang around with all day long, and I'm going to go with this guy. That's your choice to make because you're the owner. And as the owner, if you have employees that work for you and ultimately daily represent your business and they go on social media and they say something absolutely asinine, then you have a right as a business owner to say, I don't want that representation coming out of my business. And so you have a right to say, you're out of here. And someone says, well, that's against free speech. It's a different domain. It's a private domain. My business here is my business. I can make that choice. However. However, people should have the right to say very stupid things. I mean, that's, you know, that's such a Christian virtue.

Luke Bear (13:06)

Legally. Legally speaking.

Jeff Durbin (13:08)

Yeah, exactly. You're not able to walk up somebody and say, I'm gonna kill you at three o' clock today. That's, you know, that's a threat. That's where you're getting into like violence and things like that. But people in America have to have the right to express their opinions and even opinions you don't agree with, and even things that might be seen by you as obstacles seen and wrong, but you need to be able to do that. Now, why do I say, like it's a virtuous thing for society to have that, like this commitment to this principle of freedom of speech. You want that because you need that for the spread and preservation of the gospel and Christian truth. Because when tyranny comes in or evil overwhelms and the evil crowd and mob comes in, you need the right to the freedom to be able to say what Christ commands and what Christ's call is. And so every Christian nation wants to have freedom of speech within that nation, at the heart of the nation, because you need to be able to have that for the propagation of the gospel. You need that. We have to have that. And where there isn't freedom of speech and where there are things like hate speech and those kinds of things, the way that they would define them, then you actually have something that can prohibit the gospel. For example, like Luke just mentioned, in the uk, was it Scotland or. I haven't slept for days here, I feel like. So I forget if it was Scotland or the uk may actually be.

Luke Bear (14:32)

I think it was both.

Jeff Durbin (14:33)

Where you were told on that street where the abortion mill is, you're not allowed to say anything.

Luke Bear (14:37)

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Jeff Durbin (14:38)

And then you also couldn't pray in your head.

Luke Bear (14:41)

Yeah. Well, that happened in Ireland.

Jeff Durbin (14:43)

Was it Ireland?

Luke Bear (14:44)

Yeah. That one of our friends and one of our pastor friends in Northern Ireland just this last year got arrested for praying silently into himself.

Jeff Durbin (14:52)

I mean, seriously, how do you even enforce something like that? Thought crimes like that, you know, police walk up to you and ask you, are you praying? Well, yes. It's so stupid about what?

Luke Bear (15:05)

Right.

Jeff Durbin (15:05)

You.

Luke Bear (15:06)

Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Durbin (15:08)

You wouldn't be such a thug and a tyrant. And, you know, how do you enforce that? So it's crazy. We can't get to this place. And ultimately I want to say that for sure, for sure. Without question, Charlie Kirk would be opposed to what Pam Bondi was saying. Charlie Kirk's main emphasis.

Luke Bear (15:26)

Oh, yeah, 100%.

Jeff Durbin (15:27)

If he wasn't talking about Jesus and you know, the other. All the many things he was talking about, he was talking about freedom of speech and he wanted to protect that. And so. So this response to all the insane, gross things that were being said about Charlie Kirk and after his death, this response is an overstep.

Luke Bear (15:48)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (15:48)

And you don't want it in a Christian nation to have an overstep like that. What we should be able to do is have free freedom of thought and speech and the ability to communicate and to cast down bad ideas and refute bad ideas. You need that. It's a good society when you have that kind of freedom of speech. So Jimmy Kimmel got a little taste of this. Jimmy Kimmel lost it because of this comment he made on his show.

Luke Bear (16:15)

We hit some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying.

Jeff Durbin (16:19)

To characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk is anything other than one of.

Luke Bear (16:23)

Them and doing everything they can to score political points from it. In between the finger pointing, there was grieving. On Friday, the White House flew the.

Jeff Durbin (16:31)

Flags at half staff, which got some criticism. But on a human level, you can see how hard the President is taking this. My condolences on the loss of your friend Charlie Kirk. May I ask, sir, personally, how are you holding up over the last day and a half, sir? I think very good. And by the way, right there, you see all the trucks? They've just started construction of the new ballroom for the White House, which is something they've been trying to get, as you know, for about 150 years. And it's going to be a beauty. Yes, he's at the fourth stage of grief.

Luke Bear (17:03)

Construction, demolition, construction.

Jeff Durbin (17:10)

This is not how an adult grieves.

Luke Bear (17:11)

The murder of someone he called a friend.

Jeff Durbin (17:13)

This is how a 4 year old more into goldfish. Okay, yeah, that was a little weird. Yeah, that was a little weird.

Luke Bear (17:23)

Yeah. Just I don't know how anybody can be trying to use Charlie's assassination as an attempt to be funny.

Jeff Durbin (17:31)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was a little weird from Trump, but that was weird. Yeah, but give the man the benefit of the doubt. I mean, sometimes grief does look like that. Sometimes you are just trying to get out of your head in the situation. Sometimes grief can do that. So give the guy a break. Give him some grace. Give them benefit of the doubt is what I say. And I'd say that about anybody else who did something weird like that right after the loss of a friend or a loved one. It's just if you've ever done it, you've ever experienced it, you know, you're all over the place in your mind. And so benefit of the doubt. But the weird, the part that got Jimmy canned ultimately canceled over is the comment about the shooter.

Luke Bear (18:09)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (18:10)

That he was one of their own, maga's own. So the argument is that he was some Sort of a conservative or part of the MAGA movement. No, he hated the MAGA movement. As a matter of fact, if you see the text messages that the FBI released, he. He gets. He's upset because his father was hardcore maga.

Luke Bear (18:27)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (18:27)

And obviously he wasn't. And so this is a little clip from the. The governor and of Utah talking about that very thing. Some outlets are reporting that the suspect lived with a transgender partner. Is that accurate? And are investigators looking at this part of his life as a possible motivation? Yes, definitely. And yes, I can confirm that. I know that has been reported and that the FBI has confirmed that as well, that the roommate was a romantic partner, a male transitioning to female. I can say that he has been very cooperative. This partner has been incredibly cooperative. Had no idea that this was happening, and is working with investigators right now. And how is that relevant to the investigation when it comes to the motive? Are you learning that? Sure. Well, yeah, that's what we're trying to figure out right now. Again. I mean, it's easy to draw conclusions from that. And so we've got the shell casings, other forensic evidence that is coming in, trying to piece all of those things together. So if the witness and the evidence is true that this guy was in a relationship with a man pretending to be a woman, then of course, it makes perfect sense. The motivation for why he wanted to kill or murder Charlie Kirk. It's pieces fit perfectly together. And it's not, I think, by accident that, or that's just. Just simply how it turned out. That. That moment that he shot Charlie to murder him, it was at that moment because there was two questions there. The first question was about trans shooters, people that were mass shooting who were transgender. And then right on the heels of that was the question of guns. And that's when he. He. He. Charlie responded back with, you know, gang violence or not. And so it was right there. And so it's not an accident. I think that that's the moment that he chose to kill, because, I mean, he's. The guy is. Is. Is a homosexual and he's living with another man in a sexual relationship with another man. So it makes perfect sense, motivation wise.

Luke Bear (20:40)

Oh, so it wasn't Frank Turk telling them when to shoot?

Jeff Durbin (20:43)

Oh, my gosh. I just told Luke that before the show. So the day that this all happened, it's wild. The Internet is crazy, right? I mean, you guys all experienced that. Internet is crazy. And everyone's, you know, trying to figure it out. And I understand that, you know, what. What happened? Who Was there. So everyone's dissecting the videos and each different angle. And in one of them, I was. I saw this a ton. A ton. I say, like, for hours, I saw this on social media. People were zero. Zeroing in on the guy that was standing behind Charlie Kirk in the hat. And at a certain point, he, like, touched his hat and then scratched his face. And I looked at that. I was like, oh, that's a little weird. He didn't, like, move his hat, but he touched his hat. It was like, huh, I don't know. And that went around for, I guess, a couple of days. This guy had something to do with it. He was giving signals. Now, I also saw videos that were saying that Charlie's security was giving signals.

Luke Bear (21:34)

So stupid.

Jeff Durbin (21:35)

And I was. I was like, all right, Now, I saw that guy in California when I saw Charlie and shook his hand, and that guy is dedicated, I came back. I think I told you.

Luke Bear (21:45)

I don't know if you did.

Jeff Durbin (21:46)

Okay. So when we were in California and I went back to bring Stellar and Jude to go shake Charlie's hand. So I'm standing there on the sidewalk. The event is on the. On the sand, and Charlie's doing his thing at the fundraiser. And then someone from TPUSA went over to tell him, hey, Jeff's over there. He wants to say hi to you and have you shake his son's hand. So. But while all that was going on, there was, like, a line around Charlie and his security dude. They were. I was like, these guys are not schlugs. They are good.

Luke Bear (22:12)

I think they're former seals.

Jeff Durbin (22:13)

Ye. Yeah, I. I mean, they were just on. I'm. I'm standing on the sidewalk, and I'm trying not to, like, alert them or. Or, like, scare them in any way, but I. But just me standing there with the boys, they were on me for, like, 10 minutes, just dead stare. And they were, like, walking sideways. And I look at that guy, and he's staring at me. They were, like, getting in position, watching me because I wasn't moving. And then Charlie came over with. With that guy. The guy that was with Charlie is the guy that was with Charlie the day that I met him. And so when I saw those videos of the guy, like, doing signals and everything, I was like, no, that guy loves Charlie for sure.

Luke Bear (22:46)

And John Root, I mean, he verified that last week. He knows that guy well. And, yeah, he said he's a great dude. And they had to carry Charlie's body.

Jeff Durbin (22:52)

Yeah, I did see that video where he was in that Carrying the body. Yeah. That must have been really, really hard.

Luke Bear (22:56)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (22:57)

Anyway, so found out Frank Turek. I gotta show you the video later. Frank Turek came out and had to do a video on. That's me. So Frank Turek apparently has been coaching Charlie Kirk on apologetics and things like that. So he's at the event. So for that whole. I didn't even recognize him at all. And so I'd seen that video a bunch of times, but for like, two days, he was, like, nationally, internationally, being seen as, you know, complicit. He had to come out and say, no, Charlie's my friend. I was coaching him, and I was adjusting my hat. Oh, my gosh. People get wild. Which, by the way, by the way, by the way, great lesson to learn here. Super great lesson to learn here in terms of biblical wisdom, is that you can't go off of assumptions and make accusations. Biblical law, Deuteronomy 19:15 and on biblical law says that if one witness says something, you cannot charge somebody with a crime. You can't punish them, because on the basis of one witness, there needs to be multiple lines of independent testimony. Witness. That doesn't even mean it's true. You can have three people saying something is true. It just means, okay, I need that to even be able to investigate. I need that. I need that many levels of evidence to be able to investigate a charge. But if one person's saying something, I have to toss it out. I mean, further investigation may happen from that point, but you can't receive the accusation, say that it's true, punish a person on the basis of it. We need to up our standards. And so what happened even in that event is all these assumptions. People have an assumption in their mind. The assumption turns into an accusation, and then they make the accusation. This guy's in on it. Why? Well, because my assumption is he's up to something. He touched his hat. He's up to something for real. That doesn't mean you can't investigate. It means that you can't start accusing. And for about two days or three days, maybe, Frank Turek, Christian apologist, preaches the gospel. Frank Turek was seen as a part of Charlie Kirk's murder. Probably, yeah. And all based off of assumptions. So the story gets spread across the world for days on someone's assumption that he's in it, and it turns into an accusation, and now he's guilty. We can't live like that, brothers and sisters. We just cannot live like that. We can't charge people with things and accuse people of things based upon our own internal dialogue and assumptions. Has to be facts, has to be truth, has to be evidence, has to be witness, and it can never be based off of a single witness. That's forbidden in God's law. And. And that's what happened on the Internet with Charlie Kirk. You know, one person saying something and then it just goes out, and then people get vilified. Oh. Oh, I just remembered this. I just remembered this. So the day following Charlie's murder, there was the. The FBI had released those photos, those pictures. Right. And so I'd seen them, and I'm, you know, I'm seeing a bunch of them, and some of them were actually not accurate because the. It was AI. Yeah. And so I was like, oh, that's not good. So what's. What's the real picture look like? And one of the pictures. This went on for a while, actually. One of the pictures was being placed next to a guy, a famous clip of a guy. Yeah, I know that Charlie had debated. The guy was, like, with his backpack on his chest.

Luke Bear (26:14)

I thought that was legit. Yeah, I thought that was the guy. Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (26:17)

And so for, like, 24 hours, I was like, maybe that's him. I don't know. Like, somebody. I was. I thought in my head, someone's gotta look into that. I hope somebody looks into that. It's funny, it's crazy. Here's what I'm saying about it. But people just went to, that's the guy. It wasn't like, maybe we should investigate that. That's where I was thinking, someone should probably go check that guy out and ask some questions. People were all over the Internet saying, this is the guy. They were doing videos of that picture and that guy, and they were just dissecting it and going into the lips and the nose and everything. And so for. For about probably 24 hours or so, that guy was vilified internationally as Charlie Kirk's assassin. And. Yeah, that's wrong and sinful. We should stop doing that. We should stop doing that. Nope. Can you imagine for 24 hours your friends are calling you dude. Do you see what everyone's saying about you? Well, like. Like who? Like where at? The whole world. The whole. The whole world is saying, you did it. And so what a terrible day for that guy.

Luke Bear (27:23)

Thankfully, he didn't, like, get arrested or anything.

Jeff Durbin (27:25)

Seriously. And, yeah, it's just. It's a sad day when. When we don't have strong standards and willing to receive accusations that just aren't. Don't have any basis in truth. And then spread those stories and they become stories that are slanderous and they harm people. And that guy, that guy, I'm sure he had a very bad 24 hours. He's probably just begging people, please understand. I was asleep. I was at home sleeping. So it's just a terrible thing.

Luke Bear (27:52)

Oh, my gosh.

Jeff Durbin (27:53)

So that. Let me see. Do I have any more here? Gabe, did you give me more on this? That was the. The governor sitch. Okay. Yeah. So. Oh, that's. Sorry. Okay, good. I'm just getting back and we have a new time thing here, so we're gonna go into a commercial break right now. We'll see in a minute. This episode's brought to you by ion layer@ionlayer.com Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits and longevity benefits of nad. NAD is nicknamed the fountain of Youth for a reason. You have an abundance of this in your system when you're young. As you get older, it drops off. And now we found a way to get NAD into our systems. They do it through IV treatments, but they're very expensive and it's also extremely painful and difficult. However, Ion Layer found a way to get a high dose of NAD into your system through a medical patch you wear on your arm. You wear it for about 14 hours, you get a high dose of NAD treatment into your system and no pain at all. And it is a fraction of the cost of what you would pay for an IV treatment. In the coupon code, type in Apologia in all caps. They're going to hook you up with a great discount for an already amazingly cost effective product. And they bless Apologia Studios and help us to stay on the air and do all these programs with you. Don't forget. Also, Ion Layer has added a glutathione patch as well. Glutathione, the master antioxidant. Go check out the health benefits of glutathione. I'm doing this stuff anyways. It's blessed my life in tremendous ways. And so if you want to focus on your health, wellness and longevity, nothing better in my mind than ionlayer.com for your NAD and Glutathione treatments. Ionlayer.com, don't forget to put Apologia in all caps in the coupon code. Yo. All right, we're back. So really cool comment. I want to read here, everyone, if you missed it here in the chat, Dallas Howard said. Pastor Jeff, thank you so much. You, through God, led me out of Mormon theology. I am now a strong Christian husband. And Father, thank you for everything. Soli Deo Gloria Dallas. Praise God. Praise the Lord that he uses this to draw his people to himself. I'm just grateful to see that. That is such an encouragement to see today for both Pastor Luke and myself. We're gonna actually do something kind of fun for you guys right now, and let's. Let's do a little bit of story time. A little bit of story time. So Pastor Luke and I were serving together at a church in it, basically Ahwatukee, technically South Phoenix, but it's Ahwatukee. Right. And we were. We were doing pastoral ministry there and youth ministry. We had a killer. Killer youth ministry. Without question, some of the best times of our lives were youth ministries.

Luke Bear (30:43)

Killer is probably not the best word.

Jeff Durbin (30:44)

To use in this discussion today.

Luke Bear (30:47)

It was a fantastic.

Jeff Durbin (30:48)

It was a. It was a great time. We had a wonderful, wonderful time. We really did. Yeah, we did. It was awesome, awesome time. We. We. We got to lead people to Christ and we got to feed these kids, and we got to. That was just great. We had just great time on. On trips. We had a great time. And every Sunday night, we just destroyed that church building every Sunday night. I don't know if I ever mentioned it on. On the show, but we used to do what we do, Capture the flag. And we did zombies. Right? Those are the two main games. And Capture the flag was a lot of fun. And I got actually my hand slapped for this a couple times by the other elders.

Luke Bear (31:29)

Yeah, they weren't happy.

Jeff Durbin (31:30)

They weren't truly happy about it. But we. We. We still did it. We did. We're like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. We only had just a little bit of blood spilled this last Sunday. It's going to be all right. It's true, actually. And some of the blood was from Luke and. And other children. And so it was at night, and we had this long, like. It felt like youth group was long. What time did it start? What time did it end? I don't know. It was long. But we used to turn. It was a huge location, a massive location. We used to turn all the lights off in the entire building, and we used to fill the halls. We. We had some youth ministry budget, and we're. We were. Okay, so can we buy some fog machines and some strobe lights and. Well, okay. Why?

Luke Bear (32:14)

It wasn't for worship.

Jeff Durbin (32:15)

Yeah, don't ask. Why do you need that? Just don't ask. It's just very spiritual, important things we're doing here and really what it was is that we were doing capture the flag with a lot of teenagers, turn all the lights off in the entire church. Massive location. And we fill the hallways up and some rooms up with fog machines, strobe lights. So you're, like, blinded. You can't see anything. You don't know where anybody's at. And it's captured the flag. And the sanctuary was pitch black. I mean, pitch black. You could not see your hand in front of your face like this, it was so dark.

Luke Bear (32:46)

Or the butt end of a cross.

Jeff Durbin (32:48)

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. Luke came in on the stage, trying to run in, and he hit the cross. And what did it cut you?

Luke Bear (32:56)

My eyebrow. I got a little scar.

Jeff Durbin (32:57)

Yeah, that's right. And so anyway, so we did that. We did youth ministry, but Luke and I also were committed to Apologia Christian Ministries, and that's where ultimately all of this came from. And so one of our very first videos, I think, if I'm correct, the first video that we did was on Mormonism. And it was more of an explanation of Mormonism and the gospel itself. And I believe it was the next video that we dropped. It was the first. It was like the launch, really, of Apologia Studios, Engagement with the Cult and other religions. It was the Jehovah's Witnesses. Now, here's. Here's how low budget it was. We went to Radio Shack and we bought a little handheld digital recorder for like 25 or 30 bucks. That was our budget, and that was our budget. I was like, well, we're really splurging here. We're doing it. And. And so we got this handheld recorder, and we had gotten a meeting with some Jehovah's Witnesses, which. I don't remember how that turned out, how it happened that way.

Luke Bear (33:57)

I was at my sister in law's and they came to the door. I just. Literally just. Now remember that. The Galador. And then we set up a meeting. Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (34:05)

And why was the meeting at the park?

Luke Bear (34:07)

Because it was in Casa Grande. And so I think none of us live down there, so I think we just set up a neutral location.

Jeff Durbin (34:14)

Ah, okay.

Luke Bear (34:15)

Instead of going to my sister in law's.

Jeff Durbin (34:16)

So where we live, Casa Grande is not, like, close by any means. And so we had to drive to Casa Grande. We have this digital recorder. We meet these Jehovah's Witnesses in the park. Like we're coming to do a drug deal or something. Sitting down. Sitting down at a picnic table. And you had the digital recorder there. I think I Had it sort of like sitting by my Bible. So I think they would have seen it. But we just recorded this, you know, low budget technology. The conversation, put that up. And it was really like the first thing that launched Apologia and this ministry of producing content that inspires and encourage, encourages Christians to do this kind of ministry and really reaches people lost in that cult. I know people that were Jehovah's Witnesses that listened to this very conversation that we're going to hear next, that listened to it and then ultimately came to Christ off of this low budget. There's nothing to it. In a minute I'm going to play it. You're not going to even see any of the scene. It's just the audio. And it had a huge impact. And so we were doing that anyways. Luke and I were going out doing evangelism, reaching Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, whatever. Anyways, we were like, let's start recording it it and let's put it up. And so that's where all this came from. We were just doing the ministry anyways. And now we wanted you to be able to sit in on the ministry and be encouraged and inspired by it. And we wanted other people who were lost in those groups to come to Christ by listening to it. So here's, here's what you're going to hear right now. 10 year anniversary, right? That's our 10 year anniversary of Apologia Studios.

Luke Bear (35:49)

Just so the studios, not the radio show's longer.

Jeff Durbin (35:52)

The radio show goes back to like 2011 or 12, something like that maybe. And then the ministry itself on YouTube started back in like 08 or. Or something is when we dropped this.

Luke Bear (36:03)

Yeah, I think so.

Jeff Durbin (36:04)

And so. Okay, so this is a cool story. All right. So that the video I'm gonna play for you right now, like I said, is one of the first videos that we launched. I'm gonna let you hear it all right now. I had some Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door weeks ago and knocked on my door and I couldn't be with him that day, so he set an appointment. The guy came back with his wife. I sat with him for like an hour. He came back again and sat with him for like an hour and a half. And then he came back again. But I realized after the second time that I was talking to him, I realized something. I know this guy. I know his face. I recognize his voice. It's older now. He's older now, but I know this guy.

Luke Bear (36:46)

He was old in that, in the.

Jeff Durbin (36:48)

First one in the first one. And so after the second one, my wife's. You know, she's listening the whole time. The guy leaves, and I jump up, and I run to grab my phone, and I go to find this clip, and I play it, and I go, babe, babe, listen. Because she'd been listening to the conversation the whole time. I said, listen to this video real fast. And so I play it, and she goes, oh, my gosh, that's him. I go, yeah, that's him. That's the guy. And she goes, how? I said. And I explained to her. I said, that's Luke. And I sat down for the first time with these Jehovah's Witnesses. When we first started this. This is the first video that we launched that was like this. And she said, then that's the guy. I said, yeah. God brought him back to my door. Like, what? What is it, 17 years later? That's about 17 years. About 17 years later, God brought this Jehovah's Witness back to my door. Had several meetings with him. So I'm gonna play the original one for everybody. I hope it's a blessing to you. And then I'm gonna play for you guys the clip that I just got last Saturday where I finally revealed to him, hey, do you recognize me? So. And it's interesting, too, because we're talking about the same things. And so this is. Oh, I hope this works. This. This computer's been acting so wonky. Let's see if it goes right to it. All right, here we go. This is the first time that I talked to the guy 17 years ago. Oh, it's not gonna do it. Sorry, guys. My Apple. Of course it's Apple. My Apple computer is acting super weird today. I like to always make sure our team knows that. So it was the team. Just so everyone knows. All right. It was the team that we have here specifically. I'm pretty sure it was Gabe. I think Gabe was involved in that conversation. Definitely Isaac and Carmen. When I needed a new computer, they said, you got to get an Apple. Don't get the other one. Just get the apple. You have to have the apple. Gabe, were you in on that conversation? Were you telling me to get Apple? Oh, give me a break.

Luke Bear (38:37)

I mean, I don't have any issues with mine, but look how much.

Jeff Durbin (38:39)

Look how much. Just breaking down constantly.

Luke Bear (38:42)

Maybe it's just those killer graphics we had on the. That are.

Jeff Durbin (38:46)

It's, like, just constantly getting jammed up, and I don't even barely use this thing except on the show, pretty much. So. All right. So this is number two. All right, I'm sorry about this delay, everyone. Okay, that was loud.

Luke Bear (38:58)

And that is Jeff, not his teenage son.

Jeff Durbin (39:02)

Yes, that's one thing. I was playing this just to get it all lined up, which didn't matter because it's an apple and it fails. And he heard it. He was like, is that you? You sound like an elf. That's what my wife said. That's true. I played it. She goes, listen to your voice. You sound like a child. I don't even think I have it. I don't even think I had a beard. No, I didn't.

Luke Bear (39:21)

You definitely didn't.

Jeff Durbin (39:21)

I didn't have a beard. All right, here we go. Except you do have a problem. You have two major problems. And if I just tell you two. Okay, okay. And you have to find some way to reconcile this in the fact. Let's just go to two statements here just by the Lord Jesus. Okay? Number one, Jesus says to the Jews, you destroy this body or this temple, referring to the temple of his body. You agree, and I will what? Raise it up. Okay, so why did Jesus come to earth in the first place? Well, you got to answer that question. Now you're asking another question. You can't answer a question with a question. Did. Did Jesus tell the truth when he said to the Jews, referring to the temple of his body, that you destroy it, and in three days I will raise it up? Jesus can't raise himself. Well, again. Once again, you're saying that that's your claim. Jesus claim is that he and Jesus. No, it didn't say about it. But let's broaden it, okay? Did Jesus say, you destroy this body, referring to this body as a temple, and I will raise it up? Did he say that? Yes, he said, thank you. That's the answer. The answer is right there. He did. You're not. You're not. You're not. Did Jesus say, I will raise it up, yes or no? Yes. Then did he do it or not? No, he did. Okay, so he lied. Once again, two times. You have to say Jesus lied. Jesus was raised up. And just. And just for context on that point, if you're like, what is the point of that conversation? Jehovah's Witnesses believe that when Jesus was raised, he was raised spirit. And so what we're trying to impress upon our Jehovah's Witness friends is that scripture is really clear that Jesus was bodily raised from the dead flesh and bone. And so that's why I'm pressing this. Is that Jesus. Well, there's two reasons why I'm trying to. I'm trying to make the point that Jesus was raised bodily. And I'm trying to make the point also that Jesus raised himself. And this is important in terms of the Trinity. The discussion of the Trinity scripture will say plainly that God raised Jesus from the dead. Just generally God. And then it also says in other places the Father raised Jesus from the dead. But then in a place like this, Jesus says that he raises himself from the dead. You destroy this temple, speaking of the temple of his body, and I will raise it up. And it also says that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. So there's where you have the triune God of Holy Scripture. God, Father, Son, Spirit, all a part of raising Jesus from the dead. And they can't, they can't tolerate that with their theological position. They can't have Jesus raising himself from the dead. It's Jehovah who raised Jesus from the dead, the Father that raised Jesus from the dead, not Jesus. That's why he's. He just can't come to terms with what the text says. That's why it's. He's just struggling because Jesus says I. Jesus says, I will raise it up his body. And there's no way out of that. And so the conversation continues. Once again, I showed you that. It says that Jesus said he raised himself up as well. That's the same logic you use with the Holy Spirit. The difficulty is here is that you keep using the word logic and you're using your, your logic. I'm using it, except I'm using. I'm using the statement, if he's God, he certainly can, but Jesus isn't God. Well, I'll show you what then how do you, how do you reconcile Thomas falling down before Jesus and saying halkyros mo hatheos mu and worships Jesus? What is, what does Jesus say to the. I got that a little wrong there. I was speaking so fast. I was young and spry, and so I went a little faster. It's halkiros mo kai ha theos mu, which literally translated it's awesome, is the Lord of me and the God of me. And so like some people are like, oh, he's just. It's an exclamatory remark. My Lord, my God, you know, when Jesus is there and handle me and see appears before doubting Thomas. No, Thomas says something very direct, the Lord of me and the God of me to Jesus. And so it's hakurios mu kai ha theos mu is what it is. I Was going too fast. By the way, I was also wrong there. I said something wrong. I was trying to say that you can't ask a question about something else when I'm asking a question. I said you can't answer a question with a question. Actually, Jeff, yes, you can. Jesus would do that. So I just thought, I want to correct my youth here. And you could tell I'm very young. To Satan in the temptation. You should worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve. And here you have Thomas falling down before Jesus, calling him my Lord and my God and worships him. And what does Jesus say to him, Blessed are you so that made Jesus God. I'm just giving you one example. I'll give you John 8. 58. John 8:58. Jesus says, Before Abraham was ego ami I am. He calls himself Jehovah God. Before Abraham, Abraham was. Where was Jesus when Abraham was a man on the earth? Fully God, eternally God. Right there. Yeah. No, where was Jesus at when. When Abraham was a man on the earth? Jesus is the eternal God. So I'd say he's everywhere at all times. So. And yet, just real fast, how do you reconcile that?

Luke Bear (44:34)

Well, when the scripture.

Jeff Durbin (44:35)

What you talking about? When it says Abraham before you was. Before Abraham was I am I. He was in heaven. No, no, we're not talking about where he was. Jesus took the name of Jehovah God and applied it to himself. No, he did not. Well, why do you think the Jews tried to kill him? The Jews tried to kill him because he said he was the son of God. No, it says John 8. 58. If you know the passage. John 8:58, it says, before Abraham was ego ami, I am. And it says they picked up stones to kill him. And just a little bit later, Jesus says, I may call Jesus again. Jesus says to the Jews who are going to kill him again. He says, many good works have I shown you from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? And they said, for thy good works we stone thee not, but for blasphemy. And that thou being a man, makest thyself God. He called himself Yahweh, the Septuagint translation of Jehovah saying, I am was ego eimi. Jesus says to the Jews, before Abraham was ego ami, I am. And they pick up stones to kill him. So you know what? This is pointless because all you're doing is going around. I'm giving you verses. Oh, Michael. And tell him to come get us because we ain't getting no place here. So called Michael. Because we ain't getting no place here. I love. I love his voice. He's from Chicago. Chicago. That's where he's from. And he's still got a lot of that in him, even to this very day. He does.

Luke Bear (46:04)

I get it.

Jeff Durbin (46:04)

He does get it. He does. He's sausage. But. But the. The. I can't play. We're gonna put together a cool video. Carmen and I were talking about a cool video of putting these two things together. Just to share a little bit more. I had a long conversation with him on Saturday with his buddy. It went really well. But when he realized we had met before, talked about the same things, he finally asked me what I did. It was the first time. We had three meetings. It was the first time he asked me. It's the first time he asked me, what do you do?

Luke Bear (46:34)

And you. You figured it out the second time or the third time you.

Jeff Durbin (46:37)

The second time. Okay, the second time, I. I realized because he started. I was looking at his face, I was like, this is so familiar. And then he said some words that sounded exactly like that.

Luke Bear (46:45)

You call Michael.

Jeff Durbin (46:46)

Yeah, he just said it. And I was like, whoa, this is totally him. It has to be. And then I listened to it. I was like, yup, that's him. Anyway, so let's get. Let's get to it. Let's see here. All right, so long conversation. But basically, I revealed that I'm a pastor. And as soon as I said I'm a pastor, like, everything changed in his face. And then by the end of this conversation, he does basically the same thing. We ain't getting no place here. And so have a nice day. Shook my hand. I shook his friend's hand, and that was the end of that. But it was awesome that God providentially, sovereignly brings this Jehovah's Witness that we started the ministry with back to my door. I'm telling you, it's weird because we are not, like, next to Casa Grande. I mean, that's.

Luke Bear (47:29)

Yeah, you're nowhere near there.

Jeff Durbin (47:30)

Yeah, it's a ways away. And I live in Phoenix and to my door all these years later. And he sat in my house for three total meetings. And it was just fantastic. All right, so. And this is really cool, because Candy was like, you got to tell him today. You got to tell him today. And I said, I will. I. I think I'm gonna. Maybe I won't, because I want to see if we can get another meeting out of him. And she's like, you just have to tell him. And so this part of the conversation was like the same conversation we had. That's two parts, by the way. That video is. It was the same thing. It still never stuck. And so this is where I reveal it to him. A little bit of the conversation before, though. Two natures. Now his nature is gone. His nature has humanity. Unless you guys. Do you guys believe. I don't think you do. Do you guys believe that when Jesus was walking on earth, he was a spirit? You believe he had flesh and bone. Then you got it.

Luke Bear (48:27)

Flesh and blood can land here.

Jeff Durbin (48:31)

Well, that's referring to someone in their fallen nature. So I will say just quickly that I'm sorry about the bad audio here. And you hear my family in the background, you're going to hear kids in the background. This is just, you know, at my dinner table. I didn't have cameras or anything like that. And this actually sounds more low budget than the one for 17 years ago. You can hear. It's just a mess. I'm sorry. It's a mess. I just wanted to, you know, I wanted to have a record of, of what actually took place so you guys could benefit from it. So here you go.

Luke Bear (49:03)

The only person that ascended to heaven was Jesus. Noel ascended to heaven. You might hear about somebody else going somewhere, but that took him, put him somewhere else. But Jesus is the only one, first one that went to heaven, Joe resurrected him In.

Jeff Durbin (49:20)

In. In, in, in. Bodily raised.

Luke Bear (49:23)

No, he.

Jeff Durbin (49:24)

No, no. There you go. So we're going to go into a commercial here in just a minute here. I'm going to give Gabe a little more of a heads up this time.

Luke Bear (49:30)

15 seconds.

Jeff Durbin (49:31)

We got 15 seconds here, Gabe. So you do your thing, you're good at your job. And so now you have a little bit more space. Going to a commercial. We come back from the commercial. Everyone are going to play a little bit more where you see or you're gonna get to hear where I actually reveal. Hey, do you remember me? So let's go to that commercial, Gabe. The sponsor for this week's episode is Heritage Defense. Heritage Defense is a nonprofit legal advocacy organization dedicated to advancing the Kingdom of Christ by protecting and empowering the biblical family. If any three letter agencies show up at your door, have peace of mind knowing that an attorney who shares your values is available round the clock to advise and advocate for your family, protect your household today, use the discount code apologia and get your first month's membership free. Visit heritagedefense.org for more. All right, we're back. So more with a jehovah's Witness, round two.

Luke Bear (50:19)

No, listen, what I'm saying. He went. He appeared to his disciples.

Jeff Durbin (50:25)

Sure.

Luke Bear (50:29)

Just as a spirit.

Jeff Durbin (50:30)

He did. How is he eating fish.

Luke Bear (50:32)

But don't look at it. Just as those angels were eating food when Abraham made it.

Jeff Durbin (50:37)

Oh, this is really powerful.

Luke Bear (50:38)

Hold on.

Jeff Durbin (50:40)

There's one. One verse you need to see. Well, you brought. You brought it up. I think it'd be important to talk about it.

Luke Bear (50:44)

I want to do this. Well, when we asked you to.

Jeff Durbin (50:47)

Well, just real fast, because you brought it up. I just. Oh, one more thing. This is really interesting. So Jehovah's Witnesses have always been the people of the text. And I don't.

Luke Bear (50:59)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (50:59)

Necessarily mean the Bible. They do. More than Mormons, for sure. More than Mormons say, let's go to the Bible. And they will read and go through. But they read that all through the lens of the Watchtower, for sure.

Luke Bear (51:11)

And it's a new world translation.

Jeff Durbin (51:13)

There you go. Yes. And so. But they've always been people of the text. And so they have their, you know, their. Their lesson plan, and they want to go through the lesson plan with you. They'll, like, turn it over and they'll say, hey, read that. And now they add some technology now where like. Like you're reading it, and then they'll, you know, hand you a device and they'll play a video for you that's connected to the thing. And so they're very much people of the text. Either like, let's read the Bible or let's read the Watchtowers chapter here on who Jesus is. Very much been like that. But now, dude, I'm not sure when last time he sat down with some J Dubs.

Luke Bear (51:44)

No, not in a couple years.

Jeff Durbin (51:45)

It is. Is a whole different level. And especially him, he was. He was frustrated because we'd be going through the chapter and then he'd say, read that verse. And then I'd say, that's interesting verse. Can I make a comment about that? And I would go to the Bible, that verse. And he was so frustrated. He actually complains in this one. He complains. He's like, we've been here three times. And he said, and we've. We haven't gotten into two chapters because you keep talking and asking questions. And I was like, well, I'm just, you know, I'm trying to respond to what you're saying. But now they're just. You have to stay with them. We're just going to read this together. And so he was really frustrated here because he would bring something up, but he didn't want me to make any comments. And so that happens a lot in this conversation. I just need you to see it since we're sharing verses. Here we go. So at the. At the appearance to Thomas, I think you're going to want to see this. Okay. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is my eye, myself handle me and see. For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me have.

Luke Bear (52:48)

Yeah. Why did Jesus see that?

Jeff Durbin (52:50)

Because he had flesh and bones, you know.

Luke Bear (52:53)

Did you know that Jesus, when he appeared to disciples, walked through a wall?

Jeff Durbin (52:59)

Yeah. His glorified body was flesh and blood.

Luke Bear (53:02)

Cannot do that.

Jeff Durbin (53:02)

Well, his glorified spirit can. Well, his glorified body was a glorified body. There's all kinds of amazing things that. About a glorified body. But you said he was a spirit and he didn't have flesh and bones. But he says explicitly there.

Luke Bear (53:14)

But he said that to Philip, so Philip would believe.

Jeff Durbin (53:17)

Well, he describes a spirit as something that does not have flesh and bones. But he says, as you see me have. So he wasn't a spirit.

Luke Bear (53:25)

Do you remember the angels? The wicked angels came down from heaven.

Jeff Durbin (53:29)

They appeared in bodily form.

Luke Bear (53:30)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (53:31)

Materialized. Yeah. Bodily form.

Luke Bear (53:33)

So who had. Who also had that power?

Jeff Durbin (53:35)

What's that?

Luke Bear (53:36)

Who also had the power to do that?

Jeff Durbin (53:39)

Well, Jesus. Yeah, you got it. Because he did it in the Old Testament. Jesus appeared in the Old Testament in bodily form.

Luke Bear (53:45)

He did it here with Philip.

Jeff Durbin (53:49)

Well, the New Testament says that Jesus appeared in the Old Testament, but here that.

Luke Bear (53:56)

Paul, they don't die.

Jeff Durbin (53:57)

Well, I'm saying the definition. You're missing the definition. Jesus says a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see me have.

Luke Bear (54:06)

But he materialized.

Jeff Durbin (54:07)

Well, he had flesh and bone. No.

Luke Bear (54:09)

Well, he put that there. He materialized so he can see him as a flesh and bone.

Jeff Durbin (54:14)

Well, there's a difference between materializing and then having flesh and bone. Jesus says a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see me have. You said he's a spirit, but he says he has splen.

Luke Bear (54:24)

Okay, but anyway, Jesus. Did he show anybody else that besides Philip?

Jeff Durbin (54:30)

No. Thomas.

Luke Bear (54:31)

They had faith, though. Fast Thomas.

Jeff Durbin (54:33)

Yeah, but they had faith.

Luke Bear (54:35)

Well, he did not have faith.

Jeff Durbin (54:37)

Well, remember that the Apostle Paul's argument in First Corinthians 15 is that he appeared to James, to Peter, to Paul, and he says he also appeared to more than 500 eyewitnesses at one time. So he appeared to many people who believed in him.

Luke Bear (54:54)

But did he say. Did he appear to them? With flesh and bones.

Jeff Durbin (54:58)

Nope. We know he had flesh and bone because he says I have flesh and bone.

Luke Bear (55:02)

Yeah, but just. The only person he did that to was Thomas.

Jeff Durbin (55:06)

You're saying, where does that say that in the text?

Luke Bear (55:07)

No, no, you. He was talking to Thomas. You're saying 500 disciples. He was a spirit.

Jeff Durbin (55:13)

You're adding that to the text. Where does it say that in the text of the Bible?

Luke Bear (55:16)

You know one thing, tell you what the Bible says.

Jeff Durbin (55:19)

Where does it say that in the book of Acts? What you just said, you said when he appeared to the 500 eyewitnesses, it was as a spirit.

Luke Bear (55:25)

I'm saying he was a spirit.

Jeff Durbin (55:27)

Show me that.

Luke Bear (55:27)

But then he left.

Jeff Durbin (55:28)

Remember? He moved.

Luke Bear (55:29)

He went to heaven.

Jeff Durbin (55:30)

Yeah, he went to heaven. Right. He ascended. He ascended. You're quoting John 3. Yeah. John 3 is a reference to the fallen nature. Flesh and blood versus somebody who's regenerated and born again. So the words there for flesh and blood are very particular words referring to somebody who was fallen outside of Christ. It's not referring to physical flesh and blood. That's the text. That's what it says. You can go there and read that text later.

Luke Bear (56:02)

I want you to be here right now.

Jeff Durbin (56:05)

What do you want to do? But real fast. And you can go to your next part. But, but don't you think that that's something important to investigate further as a Jehovah's Witness, that you're being told by the Watchtower that Jesus was a spirit after his resurrection. But he says that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see me. Happy explicitly denies being a spirit.

Luke Bear (56:27)

The Watchtower is the steady age. I was told by the Bible.

Jeff Durbin (56:31)

Okay, can you show me in the Bible which scripture is that? This is Luke. Luke 24:39. How long have you lived here? How long have you lived here? 31 years. 31 years. That's interesting. How long have you been doing your door to door and all your work?

Luke Bear (56:54)

About 40.

Jeff Durbin (56:55)

40 years. And the whole time you've been here, you've been doing it?

Luke Bear (56:58)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (56:58)

Yeah. I think you and I have had this conversation. Conversation before. Really? Yeah, I. I remember. I think it was about 17 years ago maybe.

Luke Bear (57:12)

I don't think so.

Jeff Durbin (57:12)

You and I were. We met at a park bench, I think in Casa Grande. You were with a guy. You had Michael come pick you up, and I forget the name of the guy that you were with, but we had this exact conversation 17 years ago on Jesus being.

Luke Bear (57:28)

If it was Catherine, I wasn't there.

Jeff Durbin (57:31)

I'm Quite confident that it was you. I think you're maybe traveling around.

Luke Bear (57:36)

Was I with my wife?

Jeff Durbin (57:38)

I believe that you possibly were. I. I can't quite remember.

Luke Bear (57:43)

Were you at the assembly hall?

Jeff Durbin (57:44)

What's that?

Luke Bear (57:45)

Were you at the assembly hall in Castle Gray?

Jeff Durbin (57:48)

What's it called?

Luke Bear (57:49)

It's assembly hall.

Jeff Durbin (57:50)

Assembly hall.

Luke Bear (57:51)

Assembly hall of Jehovah's Wife.

Jeff Durbin (57:52)

Oh, no, no, I'm not sure. I just remember being at a park bench in Casa Grande. There was another guy you were with and you had Michael, someone named Michael come pick you up. But actually we had this, this exact conversation. You have a very distinct, powerful voice, and I remember your voice. And we talked about this exact exact thing. And 17 years ago, you didn't have an answer either. There you go. That was nice to reveal that his face definitely distorted a little after that and he just kind of changed positions for the rest of it.

Luke Bear (58:24)

So did he remember you at all or.

Jeff Durbin (58:26)

No, you could tell he was, he was figuring it out for sure. As, as the conversation went on, he started to get more and more like, okay, I want to go. Let's. Let's get out of here. But it was cool though, because his partner that was with him actually wanted to engage in some of this stuff. And he was a super sweet guy. I mean, he was really, honestly a sweetheart. But he, after that, decided to check out and he just was antsy and trying to get up the whole time. And I just kept, I kept him sitting down by just engaging his friend and making his friend keep talking. So that was a blessing.

Luke Bear (58:55)

Yeah, that's crazy cool.

Jeff Durbin (58:57)

I just, just a, just a personal, A personal moment means a lot to Luke and I because it brings us back.

Luke Bear (59:02)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (59:02)

Full circle to our youth and childhood. Baby face me and speaking like a. When I was a child, I spoke like a child.

Luke Bear (59:10)

Sound like a child.

Jeff Durbin (59:11)

Sound like a child. For real.

Luke Bear (59:14)

I just had that conversation with my 4 year old the other day about Jesus appearing to the disciples. He's like, how did he walk through the walls? Well, because he's God can do what he wants.

Jeff Durbin (59:22)

It's as simple as that.

Luke Bear (59:23)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (59:23)

Sometimes the simplest answer is the best one because he's God and he can do all kinds of really great things. So that was just a blessing. Luke and I used to do missionary hunting where we just get in the car and just drive around looking for more missionaries.

Luke Bear (59:40)

Talk to.

Jeff Durbin (59:41)

Just to talk to us.

Luke Bear (59:41)

Talk to. Let's be.

Jeff Durbin (59:42)

In today's day and age, you got to be very careful with your words, especially with Pam Bondi and The hate speech. But yeah, missionary hunting. We just look around for Mormons to go preach the gospel to and J Dubs and try to set up appointments and houses and things like that. Yeah, it's been a blessing. It's awesome.

Luke Bear (60:00)

It's not hard to find the Mormon missionaries. Although for a little while it was. But I've been. I think because of COVID they weren't around as much.

Jeff Durbin (60:07)

Well, the J Dubs weren't doing anything.

Luke Bear (60:09)

Oh, that's right. Yeah. But they've been getting more active.

Jeff Durbin (60:11)

Yeah. They're back at the doors again. They were during COVID they would not go out door to door. Now they're in full. They're in full effect. In effect, they're. They're at my door a lot. It's weird too, because I had a couple JWs come to my house, have a conversation on my front porch, and then sort of mark me off. Like. Like, don't go back there.

Luke Bear (60:31)

And then they blacklist you.

Jeff Durbin (60:32)

Then. Yeah. And then this. He came back. That's why I was surprised to see him, is like, I didn't think you guys are allowed to talk to me anymore. But they're back, so praise the Lord. I'd say witnessing to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and atheists, just evangelism in general is my very favorite thing to do in the world. And it's because. And Luke's experience is a lot. We've experienced a lot together. We've. The experience that you have and I hope you get to do this sometime. Guys, I would encourage you to pursue this. The experience you have of. Of loving a person and sacrificing the time for them to hear the truth and to defend the faith and just to work to try to answer questions and overcome objections. Things like that. If you haven't experienced this, please do it and do it soon. The spirit of God moving through you in that moment and speaking like the experiences, you know, where it's. Where, like it's an out of body experience almost. Where it feels like it's not even you.

Luke Bear (61:33)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (61:33)

In the driver's seat. You're saying things you didn't even know that you knew.

Luke Bear (61:37)

That wasn't for me.

Jeff Durbin (61:37)

That wasn't. Certainly not for me. Are you saying things that you didn't prepare for? It just kind of happens in the moment and it feels like you're on autopilot in a sense. And you know that. Wow, that was the spirit of God touching that person and saying that thing. I mean, there was. There's so many cool stories I have where, you know, I didn't even know that I knew something or even have, like, a verse memorized. And then I'm doing evangelism with, say, a Mormon, and. And then something comes up, and then that entire verse comes up. There was one time I was. We'll end the show, essentially. Do you have another commercial thing to do here?

Luke Bear (62:16)

We just got a couple reads, and that's it.

Jeff Durbin (62:18)

So. So I was at the Mormon Temple doing evangelism, and this is when it was, like, really, really heavy activity at the Mormon Temple where they were coming to you, they were trying to talk to you, they were surrounding you. It's not like that anymore out there. Rarely. Rarely is. And they mostly want to avoid you now. But I was having a conversation with this guy, and he was this older Mormon guy. He was super sharp. He knew his stuff. I'm a young guy. I probably was 19 years old at the time. I'm out there, I think, by myself. I'm surrounded. This guy's just super aggressive with me, and he's just. He won't even let me get a word. And I'm trying to answer his questions, and he's just, like, stopping me every time. And I remember I was frustrated because I'm trying to answer the guy, but he's just, like a powerhouse. He's all over me. And so he goes, what do you want to say? Well, what does God say about this? And I said, well. He says, well, let me look it up. So I grabbed my Bible and I go to find a verse that answers him. And he's like, no. When he grabs the Bible, he shuts it. He goes, you're the Christian here. You're here to save us. He said, so go ahead. Go ahead, say what God says. You know what he does. You don't need to open that. Just say the verse. And I was like. And everyone's staring and smiling. The Mormon missionaries and teens are like, yeah, yeah, say the verse. Say the verse. And I'm. Seriously, I'll hold. Let me read. He's like, no, no, no, no, no. You don't need that. Just give me the verse. You're. You know, you're the. You're the hot shot. Say it. And all of a sudden, I just. This feeling comes over me of just. Just boldness. And then the verse just starts coming out of my mouth, word for word, verbatim, just comes out of my mouth. And it was a big one. And he just deflates and shuts down and just stares at Me and just is dumbfounded because the verse directly addressed. I forget exactly what it was, but it was funny because the conversation ended. The dude walks away. Everyone walks away, and I'm sort of like, for a second, like. Like. Like, all right. I wait for everyone to leave, and I go, like, flipping through the Bible to find that verse, and I find it, and it was verbatim. It all came out of me verbatim, and I didn't even know I had it memorized word for word.

Luke Bear (64:13)

It's like some obscure verse.

Jeff Durbin (64:15)

Yeah. So wild. So moments like that, it just. If I could do evangelism all day, every day, that would be such an amazing experience just to. Just to do evangelism and to reach lost people, see people come to Christ. It is. It is so worth your life. And so. So ending with that, I want you to hear in these conversations, not something like, wow, I wish I could do that, or I wish I knew those Bible verses or how they believe what they believe. I could never do that. No. All of us, as God's people, are filled with God's spirit, and we have the gospel. You just have to go and preach it. Just be faithful and preach it. Go experience it. Go. Go experience. Go talk to more missionary. When you see them driving by, they come to your door. Don't turn them away. Talk to them. You know, I even had to be challenged by Candy. I mean, I had to be challenged by her. So when they came back on Saturday, I didn't know they were actually coming back on Saturday at that time, and I had some stuff to do, and we've been super busy. And so they showed up, and I go, oh, I think I'm gonna have to reschedule with these guys. And Candy goes, babe, no. And she said, this is from the Lord. And she said, you know what God's calling you to do? No, you can do the other stuff later. She said, go and give them the gospel. I was like, okay, thank you. Help me. And so it's not like I'm saying that to say, like, it's not like, you know, there's some special magical powers or something between. Luke and I are like, you know, some. We know we're standing, hovering or something. It. Sometimes it's like. Like, I don't really feel like, in my flash, like, I want to do that right now. I just. I want to do something else. And she's like, no, this is from God. You know how important this is for these men's souls. Like, you go and you make sure you spend Time with these men, I was like, all right, got it. Yeah. All right.

Luke Bear (66:01)

You know what I've noticed with the. With the J Dubs is they literally come to. When they have come to my door, it's been the worst possible time every single time. And I'm like, man, I really want to have a conversation, but, like, I'll be getting ready to leave or something. I just. I can't right now. And I don't know if you've experienced this. I'm like, can. Can you give me your number, whatever? And we'll just. Can we schedule this? And they're like, we'll just come back a different time, and they will never let you schedule.

Jeff Durbin (66:24)

I have experienced that.

Luke Bear (66:25)

And so then they. But every time they come back, I'm like, guys, yeah, I got a busy schedule. Let's get it on the schedule. And then they just. They don't do that, though. And it's super frustrating.

Jeff Durbin (66:33)

Yeah. And they. The reason I was messed up on Saturday was they were usually coming at 9, and then they showed up at, like, 10, and I was like, well, I kind of thought you might come at 9, so I'm busy now. And she was like, nope, nope. You sit in that seat. You sit in that seat, and you preach the gospel to these guys. It's good to have a wife that cares about that.

Luke Bear (66:47)

For reals.

Jeff Durbin (66:48)

All right, so, Luke, what's. What's the agenda?

Luke Bear (66:50)

Yeah, so I did see someone asked earlier about the Future of Christendom conference coming up here in three weeks in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, that Jeff will be the. The speaker at. And someone said in here that in the chat that it's maxed out. So I don't know that I hadn't heard that, but you can go to future ofchristendom.org I would just reach out to them and ask if that's accurate or what you can do. If you can still get in. They are offering 10% off the registration with the coupon code apologia. So, yeah, just check that out. I'm not really sure.

Jeff Durbin (67:24)

I hadn't heard that future of Christendom.org conference is coming up soon. Go to the website, check it out, get the tickets. Love those guys. Really cool stuff there@future christendom.org and it'll bless you. Yeah, I'm very excited to go to this conference in Pennsylvania. For one thing, it's going to be cooler weather, so praise the Lord for that. But I'm also encouraged and excited because of the caliber of men that are there who are Speaking and the topics that we get to address. I'm doing something on Roman Catholicism on presuppositional apologetics. I'm excited. I'm very excited to do this conference. So I hope you do get to show up. If you're in the east coast or you can get there. Show up. I'm excited. And come shake my hand. I'll shake yours. Let's. Let's have a good time.

Luke Bear (68:06)

Yeah. And then of course we want to thank Gamtac Blades. We got the battle axes there. I got my little Northman X serrated right here with me. X that'll X you up. That's for sure. That is sharp. Let me tell you youu can go to amtech blades.com put apology in the coupon code and get 5% off your order. They will also give 5% to an abortion out help us save babies which are super grateful for them. And Bill Rapier, just such an awesome brother and yes he is. Of course. I want to not forget to mention Dominion. You saw the ad at the beginning actually Josiah. Would you see Josiah Stowe? He was at church on Sunday.

Jeff Durbin (68:40)

No, no, no.

Luke Bear (68:42)

So they were. They were visiting. They were here for a gun show actually. But Josiah Gun show. Yeah, yeah, yes. Selling body armor. He does a lot of stuff. Anyways, super grateful for them. We actually been talking about doing a little piece like financial peace type class with them, so. And then our swag tracks. Coffee. Actually I finally got the Flex Lex shirt in so.

Jeff Durbin (69:09)

I like that.

Luke Bear (69:09)

Apologies.

Jeff Durbin (69:10)

I didn't even realize. Yeah, that's good.

Luke Bear (69:11)

Yeah, it's cool.

Jeff Durbin (69:12)

Oh that's very good. Flex Rex. I like that.

Luke Bear (69:15)

Yeah.

Jeff Durbin (69:16)

So that's one of your best.

Luke Bear (69:17)

Thanks dude.

Jeff Durbin (69:18)

That's really good.

Luke Bear (69:19)

I appreciate that.

Jeff Durbin (69:20)

Seriously. Flex Rex. Flex. Flex. Flex. Flex Rex.

Luke Bear (69:25)

It's a mouthful.

Jeff Durbin (69:26)

Flex. It's hard to say. And can we get those in different colors?

Luke Bear (69:30)

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I think there's five different colors.

Jeff Durbin (69:34)

I like that. Yeah, that's very cool. That's all right on everyone. So if you guys would also go to endabortionnow.com give their support there. We are working on the next sessions bills and everything coming up. So be in prayer for that. Abolition is the goal. Be in prayer for coming up soon Turning Point having me sit in in the seat of for they prove me wrong. Just please soak that in prayer for us for obvious reasons and just be. Be in prayer because we have the opportunity with Turning Point to address that main thing. Abortion is murder and must be abolished. That's what we're gonna. That's what I'm gonna be saying. Brother Pierce is gonna be with me there. And so be in prayer for that and be in prayer for end abortion now. If you have not signed up with an abortion now yet to get the free training, free resources to go save babies, then go do it. You need to experience. Your local church needs to experience what we've experienced, where you go out there to preach the gospel, to love those mothers and fathers, and then months later, you're holding that baby in your hands that was saved because of your presence there. We'll teach you how to do it, we'll train you. We don't want anything from you. It's totally for free. But go do it. Tens of thousands of babies have been saved through the thousand churches that have been raised up and trained through this ministry. There's no way even to calculate now the impact of this ministry. Just Apologia Church are the members of our body that go out there faithfully, God bless them, saved a baby last week, and so we see saves on a regular basis at Apologia Church. It is such a blessing to see and it's worth your whole life. So if you haven't done it yet, go to endabortionnow.com get the training, get the resources, go save some babies. And if you can, please go to endabortionnow.com and give financially for our mission, especially for next session and next year, we need your support. And I am just grateful to God for the effectiveness of a ministry like this with. With a fairly small budget in comparison to these other major pro life organizations. And the damage that God is doing through the simple proclamation of his truth is astonishing. It is astonishing. So that's Luke the Bear.

Luke Bear (71:32)

Peace out, everybody.

Jeff Durbin (71:33)

I'm Jeff the Common Ninja. We'll catch you next week right here on Apologia Radio.