546. Is Trump Going to Heaven?

Summary

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Apologia Radio Ep. 546 Summary

"Is Trump Going to Heaven?"

Release Date: October 17, 2025
Host: Jeff Durbin ("Jeff the Ninja")
Co-Hosts: Luke the Bear, Bradley Pierce

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Overview

In this culturally relevant, gospel-centered episode, the Apologia Radio crew tackles viral comments from Donald Trump regarding his prospects of going to heaven. Using Trump's statements as a springboard, the discussion explores what the gospel truly says about salvation, the insufficiency of good works, and the unearned, imputed righteousness found only in Jesus Christ. The hosts also share stories from recent outreach events and engage with challenging questions about biblical law and justice at a university event.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Viral Trump Comments: "Is Trump Going to Heaven?"

[10:43-11:16 | Trump’s Air Force One Interview Quote]

• Trump was asked about ending the Ukraine war and whether that would "help him get into heaven." He responded:

  “I don't think there's anything going to get me in heaven. I really don't. I think I'm not maybe heaven bound... but I've made life a lot better for a lot of people.”
  (Donald Trump, 10:43-11:16)

• Initial host reaction: Jeff hoped Trump might have been told the true gospel by his Christian associates, but says Trump’s comments reflect a common works-based view.

  “I was hoping that some Christian would have been able to communicate to him that you don’t get to heaven through your good deeds.”
  (Jeff, 09:33)

• Luke draws a parallel between Trump and Nebuchadnezzar, noting Trump seems resigned to relying on his good works, but not expecting heaven:

  “He's just kind of resigned himself—‘I probably not going to heaven, but I've done a lot of good things.’... Reminds me a lot of Nebuchadnezzar.”
  (Luke, 12:17)

• They clarify they can’t know anyone’s eternal state, but Trump's comments bring up crucial gospel issues.

2. Gospel Clarity: What Does It Take to Be Saved?

[13:00-17:00 | [Main Scriptural Exegesis]

• Jeff anchors his response in John 14:6 ("I am the way... no man comes to the Father but by me"), noting the exclusivity and offense of the gospel.

• The hosts highlight dangers of "faith in Jesus" language that is popular but not always biblically accurate.

  • Example: Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Roman Catholics may say "faith in Jesus" but add works, rituals, or trust a different Christ.

  “Someone could say, ‘I have faith in Jesus.’ But, okay, what kind of faith? What are you having faith in? What's the substance of that faith?”
  (Jeff, 17:24)

3. Paul’s Argument in Romans: All Are Under Sin

[22:20-34:06 | Explaining Justification by Faith Alone]

• Detailed review of Romans 1-4:

  • Everyone knows God but suppresses the truth.
  • All humanity—Jew and Gentile—are under sin.
  • “There is none righteous, no, not one... all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
  • Key: The law shuts every mouth; nobody will be justified by the law (Romans 3:19-20).

  “There is none righteous. No, not one. No one. And so Trump needs to hear that. President Trump, sir, there's some good news, but it starts with the very bad news.”
  (Jeff, 27:13)

• Justification is a gift, not a wage:

  • Either salvation is by works (“wages”) or entirely a gift received by faith.
  • Trump, along with most of the world, thinks in terms of a “scales” system which is not biblical.

  "If you think it's through your works in some way, then it's no longer a gift. And that's not the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'm talking about a whole different category—grace.”
  (Jeff, 29:40)

• Substitution and propitiation:

  • Jesus is the substitute, satisfying God’s justice so God can be just and the justifier.

  “He does it by substitution. He's already made that point—propitiation—because Jesus did it. He's your substitute. He's the righteous one, you're not.”
  (Jeff, 38:36)

• Faith like Abraham:

  • Abraham was justified by faith "apart from works," before any rituals or even offering Isaac on the altar.
  • Paul's point: This is the paradigm for all salvation.

  "He just believed and was credited righteousness. And Paul's point there couldn't be clearer."
  (Jeff, 38:06)

4. Faith-In-Works vs. Faith-Alone: Too Good to Be True?

[38:07-41:28]

• Paul anticipates the objection: “If it’s all faith and grace, can we just sin?” Paul answers: No, faith gives birth to a desire to uphold God’s law.

• Imputation: Righteousness is credited by faith, not by works; and sins are not counted against those in Christ (Romans 4 & Psalm 32 quoted).

  “If you're thinking about this right now, like, man, that sounds too free, too powerful, too gift, too gracious, too amazing—I say welcome to the gospel.”
  (Jeff, 41:12)

5. Direct Plea to Trump

[41:28]

• The hosts reiterate their respect and prayers for President Trump, and urge for those with his ear to share the biblical gospel with him.
• Emphasis: Trump’s “so close” — but peace with God is found only in trusting Christ, not works.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We would say that would depend... Whether or not Trump goes to heaven depends on his relationship to Jesus Christ.”
  (Jeff, 12:57)

• “He thinks they get to heaven through their good deeds, through their works, through the level of righteousness that they have.”
  (Jeff, 17:24)

• “When you look at the various different man made religious systems… all those systems, their gods are just capricious... But here, there’s no ignoring of justice in Scripture.”
  (Jeff, 31:34)

• “He declares you righteous on the basis of another. That's Paul's whole entire argument there.”
  (Jeff, 38:36)

• “If you’re thinking about this right now, like, man, that sounds too free, too powerful, too gift, too gracious, too amazing—I say welcome to the gospel.”
  (Jeff, 41:12)

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Audience Q&A and University Outreach

6. University of Alabama Event Reflection

[43:11-44:43]

• Jeff recounts the privilege of speaking at the University of Alabama, filling in for Charlie after his assassination.
• Security concerns were addressed; Jeff shares a story of an Amazon delivery driver who was saved from Jehovah’s Witnesses through Apologia’s content ([04:38]).

7. Challenging Pro-Life Apologetics & Mosaic Law

[45:15-67:21] | Key timestamps:

• [45:15-51:12] Audience "First-century disciple" presses Jeff and Bradley on Genesis 2:7 (‘breath of life’) and Exodus 21:22 (miscarriage) as arguments against the pro-life position.

  • Bradley debunks the misuse of "breath"—explains unique creation of Adam.
  • Respiration (life) continuous from conception, not at “first breath.”
  • Exodus 21 supports personhood and justice for the unborn—life for life if harm is done.

  “Scripture clearly has image bearers of God from the beginning... if the baby dies, life for life.”
  (Jeff, 55:14)

• [56:49-57:03] Questioner: “I believe throughout the Gospels there's example of when faced with a choice between moral law and showing mercy, [Jesus] shows mercy... he denied the death sentence to the adulterous woman.”

  • Bradley explains that the John 8 text is likely not original to John’s gospel but probably true.
  • He uses it to demonstrate Jesus did not nullify justice; rather, he exposed the mob’s failure to follow the law: where were the required witnesses? Where was the man?
  • Jesus' "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" refers to those without guilt in this specific matter, not absolute sinlessness.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Trump’s Heaven Comments: [10:43-11:16]
• Hosts’ Theological Framework – Faith vs. Works: [13:00-34:06]
• Key Gospel Exhortation/Plea to Trump: [38:07-41:28]
• Alabama TPUSA Event Reflection: [43:11-44:43]
• Genesis/Exodus & Pro-Life Apologetics: [45:15-56:09]
• John 8 and Mosaic Justice: [56:49-67:21]

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Tone, Language & Style

• The hosts speak with a mix of seriousness (“we love and respect you... want you to know Jesus”) and fraternal banter (jokes about Star Wars cosplay and Amazon packages).
• Their tone is pastoral but uncompromising, especially concerning gospel clarity and justice.

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Conclusion

This episode of Apologia Radio deftly uses a headline-making Trump soundbite to unpack the bedrock Christian doctrine of justification by faith alone. The dialogue—rooted in Scripture—emphasizes that salvation rests wholly on Christ’s finished work and not the supposed merit of good deeds, church affiliation, or political service. Stories from their ministry and real-time engagement with biblical objections reinforce that this message is not only doctrinal but urgently relevant for all, from presidents to pew-sitters.

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For Further Engagement

• Alabama University TPUSA event recording: See Apologia Studios channel
• Romans 1-4 in-depth study recommended
• EndAbortionNow.com: Equip your church, engage in life-saving activism

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If you want concise clarity on whether Trump's good works “get him into heaven”—or anyone's do—this episode is essential listening (or summarizing).

Transcript

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[Jeff the Ninja]

Non Rockabotus must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite? Delusional. Yeah, delusional is okay. In your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being so. You calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

[Bradley Pierce]

It doesn't really hurt.

[Jeff the Ninja]

She hung up on me. What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.

[Luke the Bear]

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Buddies, not to make corrosives. Right.

[Luke the Bear]

Don't go into the world and make ponies disciples.

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

I got.

[Jeff the Ninja]

I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, Pastor.

[Bradley Pierce]

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Take an amazing journey to a place that will blow your mind and move.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

Your heart so you will never be the same again.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ. So we also have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law. Because by works of the law no one will be justified. And in verse 21, of Galatians, chapter two says, I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of apology or radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. That's Luke the bear. What up? I'm Jeff the common and ninja. You can get more at apologiastudios.com that's a P O L O G I A apologia studios dot com. Go get more over there. You get all the episodes. Delicious morsels, theological morsels for your head game here. Up here, all the thoughts. It's an amazing array of theological conversation from cultish to apologia radio to provoked to sheologians. Hundreds and hundreds of episodes. And more than that, more than that, you can also also get all access and all access is all our ministry partners that make all of this content available for everybody. So when you see Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, actually, you know the good story. Let's go and bring it a. We had an Amazon package delivered to the door today, this morning. And I. I feel like my life is filled with Amazon packages. How about you, Luke?

[Luke the Bear]

Uh, yep, 100.

[Jeff the Ninja]

It is just ridiculous how many Amazon packages. We don't even want to leave the house anymore. Just, you know, just get that on Amazon. It's, it's just, it's.

[Luke the Bear]

And if you don't have it within 24 hours, you're like, what?

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yeah. Or I like. I like now before it was like, you know, before it was like two or three days. Two or three days. And then it was like, that's pretty good. And then it was like 24 hours overnight. And then now you go on there and it's like, it could be to you in two hours, which is pretty amazing.

[Luke the Bear]

It's kind of ridiculous.

[Jeff the Ninja]

So anyway, Amazon shows up at the door today and Christine answered the door. And the Amazon delivery guy told Christine, hey, I just wanted to let you guys know how thankful I am. I was a Jehovah's Witness and I came to Christ through watching your content. Somehow he knew that it was. It was us because we don't ne. We don't advertise on the door, we. Where we're at or who we are. And so he figured it out somehow. So all of that, people like that coming to what you say, you probably saw your name on the package. He's like, Isaac, Isaac Bonegas. His apology of studios right there. Gotta be Isaac's just weaving in front of the cameras. What's up, Isaac? He was getting super bold and brave anyway, so All Access Partners, that's a good story to bless you. And that's what's happening with your support of Apologia Studios through All Access. When you partner with All Access, you make all the content possible. All the gospel stuff that's going around the world and all these different categories and all the debates and on the street evangelism, everything going on is because of you partnering with us. So sign up for All Access. You get the additional content of the after shows, the Ask Me Anythings, the extended episodes of Collision, the Academy, The Academy, which has some awesome stuff there. And so all of that, all those extra nifty gifties for everybody who's a part of this ministry with us. And when you sign up for All Access, you're also part of a ministry that is truly, truly impacting the world. Sunday, a guy came up to me from Spain and he said that his church and others in Spain are. Are. Have been dramatically impacted by the content of Apologia Studios has been transformative. And he. He actually came and brought us gifts. Did you get those gifts?

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah, he's. He's been here for a month, actually. Yeah, he's. That's a sad story. He has to move back. He was trying to move here, but.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Oh, really? Well, but it was just a blessing to know that, you know, that God is using this ministry globally to lead people to Christ and to bless believers and equip them and so praise the Lord for all of. Thankful for all of you and. And. Yeah. Let's get started with today. So busy last week I was in Alabama at the University of Alabama and got to do a TPUSA event. It was originally scheduled the week after Charlie's death and assassination, but they had to move it around, obviously, for obvious reasons, and so they moved it. We did it last week, and it went really, really well. I will say that wearing the bulletproof vest, I wasn't prepared for how hot that was going to be. I was, like, soaked.

[Luke the Bear]

You had the concealed one. Yeah, yeah.

[Jeff the Ninja]

So when you watch that, if you guys watch the. The full video, it's available here on Apologia Studios for the TPUSA event. Just know that while I'm sitting there, I. It's like I'm taking a shower. My back is.

[Luke the Bear]

And you're in Alabama, so it's.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yeah.

[Luke the Bear]

Slightly humid.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yeah, yeah. And so. But it went really well. And we didn't have a lot of antagonists. We had one interesting guy came dressed like first century disciple wearing kind of a robe. We're gonna go through some of that, some of that today.

[Luke the Bear]

I still haven't seen that.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yeah, we're just, we're gonna do some of that today. Hopefully it's a blessing, you guys. I'm supposed to be doing more with t different campuses, hopefully also in the states that we have bills of abolition coming. And so. Oh, by the way, by the way, by the way. November 4th, Tuesday, November 4th, Praise Mill Church in Georgia, not far from Atlanta. Praise Mill Church in Georgia. We are going to do a gathering for pastors and leaders and Christians, churches in the state of Georgia. It's, it's, it's really easy meeting. I'm going to feed you. So come 5:30 a start time, 5:30pm not a.m. 5:30pm start time, you're gonna have dinner. And right after that, Pastor Wes and myself are going to talk to the group about what's coming in Georgia for the bill of abolition going to hearing. We need all of you there. And so please come. Uh, I will put, uh, in the description of this episode, the link with all the information for everybody. So I, that will. After the show today, I'll put it in the link. I'll put the link in the description so you guys can get that. And so just be on the lookout for that. If you're in Georgia, please come. If you're a pastor in Georgia, please come. If you're a leader in Georgia, please come. If you're a Christian in Georgia, please come. We need you there because this bill is coming very, very soon. We got to work together. And so that's what's up in Georgia. Coming up. Nabortionnow.com is where you guys go for more information on that. And so let's talk. So one of the things I wanted to talk about, I thought this, this is super valuable. I mean, it's what we're all about. It's right up our alley. This is, this is one of the main reasons we, we do this show. Uh, President Donald Trump had a conversation on Air Force One. Many of you maybe have heard about it by now. And it was a quick conversation, is maybe 40 seconds long. And it had everything to do with whether or not Donald Trump was going to make it to heaven. And interesting how that was the question was posed him. And I will say I was hoping, I was really hoping with Trump having some very solid Christians around him like Pete Hegseth. Yeah, you know, he's a CRC guy, so he runs in our circles.

[Luke the Bear]

He does.

[Jeff the Ninja]

And you know, Pete's around him. There's other believers around President Trump that have been for many years. I was hoping that some Christian would have been able to communicate to him that you don't get to heaven through your good deeds. It is through faith in Christ, apart from works of law. It is through the work of Christ alone. But it could be he has heard it. It could be someone has told him and God just hasn't opened his eyes yet.

[Luke the Bear]

We also know who his spiritual advisor is.

[Jeff the Ninja]

So, yeah, not good. Not good.

[Luke the Bear]

I don't know how much hope I have in that.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yeah, not good at all. But so this is trending right now, and it is an important conversation. So we're going to do a little bit here on President Donald Trump and whether or not he'll make it to heaven. And then we're going to review some of the content from last week's TPUSA event at the University of Alabama. And so this is the raw video. You'll see it everywhere. Again, this is trending everywhere. You've probably already heard this, but here we go. You had talked a couple weeks ago, you were doing an interview and you talked about how you hope to end the war in Ukraine because it might help you get into heaven.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

How does. How does this help?

[Jeff the Ninja]

Does this help?

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

I mean, you know, I'm being a little cute. I don't think there's anything going to get me in heaven.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Okay.

[Donald Trump (quoted)]

I really don't. I think. I think I'm not maybe heaven bound. I may be in heaven right now as we fly an Air Force One. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to make heaven, but I've made life a lot better for a lot of people. And, you know, as an example, had the election of 2020 not been rigged, you would have millions of people living just in Russia, Ukraine alone. That would have never happened. And it didn't happen for four years.

[Jeff the Ninja]

So, short clip. Obviously, there's not a lot to interact with. But, you know, when he started off saying, I'm not sure there's anything that's going to get me to heaven, that's cute. It was like, all right, all right. Like, do you mean, like, there are no good deeds or acts of righteousness that you can do that would earn you heaven? So you're like, all right, that sounds pretty good. But then he says that ultimately he doesn't know if he's actually heaven bound. And it's like, oh, that's okay. That's not what he meant. And he starts Talking about all the good things that he's done or would have done, potentially. I do agree with that, by the way. I agree that if he had won the election in 20, 20, 20, that the Ukrainian and Russian war wouldn't have happened. I think. I think he's right about that for sure. But we need to talk about that. So, Luke, do you want to add anything?

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah. Which, by the way, I saw he. I literally just saw this. He just released the transcript, I think, of his call with Putin. I haven't seen it yet, but.

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

Really?

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah, I just. I literally just came across my phone before we started.

[Gabe (Sponsor Announcer)]

Yeah.

[Luke the Bear]

I mean, what it seems to me, what I take from that is that he's just kind of, like, resigned himself and be like, yeah, I am who I am. I probably not going to heaven, but I've done a lot of good things. And he's proud of himself for the good things he's done and reminds me a lot of Nebuchadnezzar. And that's been my prayer for him for a while, especially since he got shot in the ear. You know, like, I was hoping that would be his. Would be a Nebuchadnezzar moment for him in a good way and not in a bad way. But that's what I took out of. And again, that's assuming why he said what he said. But that's like me reading between the lines.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yeah. And so we're hopeful. So, I mean, the title here of the. Of the video is Trump Going to Heaven. Let me just go ahead and say at the outset, none of us can answer that. For ultimately, you know, we can't answer that with certainty. So we're not coming on the show today saying, yes, no, we're saying that's the question that he was being asked, and he gave his answer. And so there's the title. Is Trump Going to Heaven? And that would. We would say that would depend. Whether or not Trump goes to heaven depends on his relationship to Jesus Christ, because Scripture is clear. John 14:6. Jesus says, I am the way and the truth and the life, and no man comes to the Father but by me. And we recognize without question, that is offensive to other religious movements and prophets and their versions of God. And we'll just say very clearly, as humbly as we can, we don't care. That's what Jesus says. Jesus is the God, man. Jesus is God incarnate. And Jesus made it very, very clear that the only way to the Father is through the Son. And so whether or not someone goes to heaven is dependent upon whether or not they're united to Jesus Christ and whether or not Christ is their mediator, whether or not they have faith in Jesus. But then there's another step there in terms of, okay, because you know, you have Mormons that will say, I have faith in Jesus. Which we would say, which Jesus, because your Jesus ain't the Jesus of Scripture.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Right?

[Jeff the Ninja]

It's a, it's a false God, it's a fiction, it doesn't exist. Or the Jesus of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. They'll say they have faith in Jesus as well. But again, that's a different Jesus. It's a Jesus who doesn't exist. It's the kind of thing that Paul is referring to to the church in Corinth where he says that he's amazed that they're so quickly deserting him and called him by the grace of Christ to another gospel, which is really not an, oh, actually, sorry, that's Galatians, my bad. So in, in Corinthians where he talks about how he's worried about the current church in Corinth because somebody might come with another Jesus, another spirit, another gospel, and you might put up with them. Paul is saying, and so first century problem of false Jesuses, Jesus that can't save is a problem there. And so, you know, somebody could say, I have faith in Jesus. Roman Catholics, Roman Catholics believe in the Trinity. They, they say the scripture is authoritative and they would say that Jesus is God and man. Jesus loved the perfect and righteous and obed. Jesus died on the cross for sinners. Jesus rose again from the dead. Jesus is ascended and seated. Jesus is going to come back to judge the living and the dead. And there's. So there's going to be a final resurrection. So everything looks good in Titan right there. Except the Council of Trent repudiated the gospel preached by Paul and of course of by Jesus. And so while a Roman Catholic will say, I have faith in Jesus, I think you would see that Paul addresses the problem of people who are saying they have faith in Jesus, Jesus is the Messiah. They're orthodox in every way, and yet they add something to the gospel. In order to be declared righteous before God, in order to be right before God, to have righteousness, to be declared righteous by God, to be justified. You got to do this one thing right. You got to at least, at least keep the circumcision, like pull that part over from the law and you got to get circumcised, guys. That's how you get righteous. That's how you're in. You got to become Jewish too, you know, covenantally, like, you got to do this thing. And Paul repudiates that in this very short letter of Galatians. And he says in Galatians 5, to those people who are doing that, he says, you've become estranged from Christ. Whosoever of you attempts to be justified by law, you've fallen from grace. And he said that to people who said, yeah, it's faith in Jesus. Yeah, no problem. He's the Messiah. He's the God man. He died and rose again. We all affirm those things, but they were saying, it's not just faith in Jesus. You got to add this other element. In order to be justified before God, you've got to keep the circumcision thing. And Paul says to those people, you have nullified the grace of God. Righteousness does not come through the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ. And he uses Father Abraham as the premier example. If you are truly a descendant of Abraham, a child of Abraham, then you need to have the same faith of Abraham. He does that in Galatians. He does that in Romans, chapter four. And so it matters what you say about faith in Jesus, because I think. I think that if you. I bet on this. I would definitely bet on this. If you were to ask Donald Trump, do you believe in Jesus? He would say, yes. He would say, yes, he does. I bet on that for sure.

[Luke the Bear]

Right.

[Jeff the Ninja]

I agree. He said enough in terms of Christ as Lord and Christ is king and all those. All those things. And he's been a great blessing to the church in terms of supporting the Christian church and things like that. So I think he would say, I believe in Jesus. I have faith in Jesus. But then he says here, when he's asked the question about heaven, well, are you going to get to heaven? And it was a revelation of what President Trump believes about how a person gets to heaven. He thinks they get to heaven through their good deeds, through their works, through the level of righteousness that they have. That's what President Trump believes. But what is the. It's the. It's the scriptural question. What do the scriptures say? That's the question. How is a person reconciled to God? How does a person have peace with God? And that's what we want. By the way, for President Trump, this isn't in any way to diminish. Diminish his. Or bring down his dignity in a way, take down the position of president and just sort of talk down to him. It's really a plea. I mean, get this to President Trump. We love and respect you and want you to know Jesus. We want you to know that you have eternal life. And that's what, by the way, the Apostle John says to the Christian church and Roman Catholics would call this the sin of presumption. Well, apparently the Apostle John's guilty of it, and he wants you to be guilty of it, too. And this is where John says, and it's beautiful. One of my favorite things. These things have I written unto you that believe in the name of the Son of God, that you might know that you have everlasting life. So those who believe have eternal life, and God wants you to know that you do. And so that's what we want for President Trump. We want him to know. We want him to know that he has eternal life through Jesus and the perfect work of Jesus Christ for sinners like Trump and us. And so we need to be able to address that and just get into the particulars of the gospel, because, again, someone could say, oh, I have faith in Jesus, but, okay, what kind of faith? What are you having faith in? What's the substance of that faith? And what are you believing about Jesus? What, that he was an historical figure, that he was real and walked among us? And it's like, is that enough content for faith? Or is there something about Jesus that you're supposed to believe in and trust in? And we can, of course, bring up what James says in James, Chapter two, when he's talking to people who are merely professing faith, and there's no real living faith there. It's not a real faith. He says, you know, you say you believe, even the demons believe, and they tremble. They're not saved. Like, they know all this is true. They have an intellectual ascent, like. Or aqua. I. I see that that's true. Absolutely. I think. I think every demon could. Could defeat even the greatest theologian on earth when it comes to, like, a theological exam, because they've been there and done that, and so they know they've got the content down, but they have no faith in Jesus. And so here we go. So how do we explain the gospel to somebody who says, well, I think I've done enough good things. Maybe not enough good things. You know, this. I could have saved the people from the war. And, you know, I'm not sure if I'm going to heaven, but I believe in Jesus. We would say, okay, let's talk about that, because that's. That's a question that's repeatedly asked in Scripture. And that's something that Jesus explicitly speaks to constantly in his ministry, how a person has peace with God and they're not condemned, and what does it mean to be saved in Jesus? And so the Apostle Paul spends the first couple of chapters in the book of Romans unpacking the gospel to this point, explaining the plight, the human condition of all of us. And he explains it first by going after the fact that everybody knows God. Romans chapter one. It's not a problem that they don't know him, that they're not sure that he's there or there's not enough light to understand. We're just sort of clamoring around in the darkness. We just don't really know. No. Paul actually explains in Romans chapter one that everybody does know God, but they don't want to know Him. They don't want him in their head. They didn't want him in their knowledge. They would rather have something else in his place. And so we're going to go to a quick break and unpack some more of the gospel for President Donald Trump and everybody else listening to understand the great glory of this magnificent, marvelous gospel that God has given to us in Jesus Christ. So quick commercial break and then we're going to come right back. This episode is brought to you by ion [e-mail] Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits and longevity benefits of NAD treatments. NAD is nicknamed the fountain of youth for a reason. You have an abundance of this in your system when you're young. As you get older it drops off. And now we found a way to get NAD into our systems. They do it through IV treatments, but they're very expensive and it's also extremely painful and difficult. However, Ion Layer found a way to get a high dose of NAD into your system through a medical patch you wear on your arm. You wear it for about 14 hours, you get a high dose of NAD treatment into your system and no pain at all. And it is a fraction of the cost of what you would pay through for an IV treatment. In the coupon code, type in Apologia in all caps. They're going to hook you up with a great discount for an already amazingly cost effective product. And they bless Apologia Studios and help us to stay on the air and do all these programs with you. Don't forget. Also, Ion Layer has added a glutathione patch as well. Glutathione, the master antioxidant. Go check out the health benefits of glutathione. I'm doing this stuff anyways. It's blessed my life in tremendous ways. And so if you want to focus on your health, wellness and longevity, nothing better in my mind than ionlayer.com for your NAD and Glutathione treatments. Ionlayer.com don't forget to put apologia in all caps in the coupon code. Welcome back, everybody. So speaking on the Gospel According to St. Paul, Paul in Romans chapter one again says that everyone knows God, they just switch God for idols and they do all kinds of evil things and they don't, they don't just do them, they applaud everybody else who does them. And so then the Jew comes into the conversation for the Apostle Paul where Paul begins to deal with them and they think that they're right and good as far as it goes because they've got the law, right? And so Paul indicts them and he says, you've got it, you've got the scriptures, but that's, that's, that's not getting you right with God because you teach people not to do these things and you do them yourself. And so you, you hold the scriptures, but you don't even do the things that are in the scriptures. And so you're not, you're not good before God or any better off ultimately in terms of your condition. And then In Romans chapter 3, the apostle Paul just brings it down to say, everybody, all right, you're all under sin, every single one of you, Jew and gentile, you're in the same spot. And so we, what is that position? And this is what President Trump and every person who is a part of any man made religion needs to hear or any counterfeit version of Christianity. Romans, chapter 3. The apostle Paul starts grabbing all these verses from the Old Testament, in other words, showing this isn't, this isn't a theological or soteriological novum for Paul, like, this is a new story now there's a new way to heaven, a new way to God. He makes the point, this has always been God's testimony about the condition of mankind mind. And so he says what Trump needs to hear in terms of if Trump is thinking that, okay, I'm not sure if I've done enough good things or maybe I've done too many bad things. And so, like, I'm not sure how the scales are working out for me. I don't know if I'm gonna make it to heaven. And by the way, that's probably what, what, you know, in terms of man made religion, what 99 would say, 100 would say, is, I'm not sure I've done good enough things. Even counterfeit versions of Christianity, religions that ape Christianity and distort the message, same problem. They're like, I'm not sure, you know, Jesus did his thing, but I'm still not sure if I have enough righteousness, if I'm righteous enough. And so Paul says, here it is, you're all under sin. And this is the true story. There is none righteous. No, not one. No one. And so Trump needs to hear that. President Trump, sir, there's some good news, but it starts with the very bad news, and that is that this, you're not righteous. Even the good things that you've done as president that have blessed people's lives and the stands that you've taken and the great things that you've done before God, it doesn't make you righteous or sort of righteous or kind of righteous. There's the. The scale is. Is dropped towards the other direction. It is all bad. There's none righteous. No, not one. None who seeks for God. None who does good. None who does good. And so we have to grab hold of that and understand that. That we can't really understand the good news until we understand our condition, that we are absolutely, undeniably, broken, separated from God, each and every single one of us. No matter how many good deeds you think that you've done, all of our right, it has been said in Scripture, are as filthy rags before God. Even the good things that those covenant people thought that they were doing before God, all their righteousnesses before God because of their sin, were as filthy rags before God. And that word, filthy rag, go look it up. It is not a pretty portrayal of our sin. And so then Paul goes on to make the point in Romans, chapter three. And this is key right here. This is what everyone needs to hear. If the condition is totally lost, if the condition is not righteous, if the condition is not good, this is the key. Now, 319 Romans. Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law, no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes the knowledge of sin. In other words, the law is going to be used to shut everybody up on the last day. Everybody, you're all shut up. And the law is going to condemn everybody. And by the way, it's really important. People have tried to get around the strength and the weight of that witness from Scripture there in terms of the law. And they're like, well, no, but Paul is referring to. There are like ceremonial aspects of the law that's not going to get you to heaven. And like things like circumcision and various sundry other laws like that. It's, it's that kind of stuff that Paul's referring to won't justify you before God. God, you're gonna have a hard time proving that point because Paul says there that the whole world is going to have their mouth shut because of God's law. And it will not justify anybody because they're not righteous, they're not good, and the whole world will be. In other words, all the pagans are going to be shut up by God's law. And that ain't circumcision. All right? It's like, is God on the last day going to shut the pagan's mouth because of circumcision? No. It's clear that Paul's context for works of the law is much broader than. But then Paul goes on to explain in Romans, chapter 3 that the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law through the law and the Though the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who what believe for there's no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That's everybody. That's trump, that's me, that's Luke, that's everybody listening to this. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are are justified, that is declared righteous by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. So that's how God does it. It is a gift. It is by grace. So, and Paul's going to make this point a number of times throughout his letters. Salvation is either a gift or it is a wage. It is a gift or it is something else. And Paul makes the whole point that if you're trying to work for this, then that's a wage and that's not a gift. And that's not the gospel I'm talking about. So his gospel, he makes a distinction between a grace gift gospel and a works gospel. And he's making the point that if you think it's through your works in some way, then it's no longer a gift. And that's not the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'm talking about a whole different category, grace. And so if you're adding to this through works of the law and your Obedience and all the rest. He says that's a wage and that ain't a gift. So it's not even in the category of gospel. That's Paul's point. It's by the way, one of the most significant points he can make about the gospel is that right there, like the measure of whether or not you are talking about the thing that I'm talking about, the biblical gospel, God's gospel, the measure is whether or not it's a gift or it's a wage. And if you're, if you say in any way that you're working for it, then that's a wage, congratulations, you're working for heaven. And that ain't the gospel. That's not, not gift and grace. So then Paul goes on to say that God put forward Jesus Christ as a propitiation by his blood to be received by faith. A, a full diversion of God's wrath, a full satisfaction of God's wrath over sin. And that's why God placed Jesus there, was to do what he says. This, this was to show God's righteous or divine forbearance because he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Here's the key issue with the death of the Son of Man on that tree. Here is the key issue. Paul's making the point that we're all under sin, we've all fallen short. This is a gift. Redemption's in Christ Jesus. And this is why God did it this way. Because God must remain just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. In other words, this is key. I've always tried to make a point when I'm teaching on this, to make this point as clear as possible. When you look at the various different man made religious systems and whatever kind of God or gods or goddesses and the system of works and ritual and all the rest, best they have, you know, an understanding. Every one of us do as image bearers of God, that we're sinners, we've fallen short in some way and we're not good. Like I'm not the best, I'm not perfect. You know, I'm not, I'm not at this point ready for nirvana, right, to enter into the vast sea of oneness, which is nirvana. I might come back as an aardvark because I really, you know, I really blew it a lot. And so I'll just, I'll reset and try this again. And so, you know, even Islam, you know, they know their sin because they borrow capital from the Bible. So they know, like, okay, God is holy and we're sinners and all the rest. And Islam comes later and says, okay, well, it's this way. This is how you get to heaven and fix this. But all those systems, their gods are just capricious and their gods are sort of. It's arbitrary. I mean, whether or not the God likes you. I mean, just. All right, oh, yeah, I know you've sinned and you've fallen short and you've harmed people and you've. You've perpetrated injustices. But you know what I really like, you're a choice meat or you're, you know, a good pick or something. And so though you have harmed and perpetrate injustices and vile sins, Allah can just determine, I'm going to let you go. I'm going to let you go and just abandon justice while I do it on behalf of all your victims and also your sins against me. It just becomes this arbitrary thing, not justice. Whereas what we have here, testimony in Scripture, here, just get this in terms of the glory of the Christian worldview, isn't the indication that it is in fact divine, that this revelation is divine. Because there's no ignoring of justice in Scripture. No ignoring, no lying about your condition, no softening the edges. It's telling the truth. And it says, and the only way that God can do this, save you, forgive you, declare you righteous, is if there's a substitute that actually receives the justice that was due to you in himself. And that's so that God can remain just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. In other words, God doesn't in the gospel ignore the fact that you, you are a wretch, that you're awful. He doesn't ignore the fact that you really are guilty. It's just that there's a substitute who comes in and says, I love you so very much. I will represent you. I will live the life you failed. I will die the death that you actually do deserve. And then I'm going to conquer that death and I'm going to intercede for you forever. And you will be in me. You will be given my righteousness as a gift. And I took your sin on that cross. So God is just, because he's not ignoring your sin, it's paid in full, and he declares you righteous as a gift through faith, not earned. And so that's, that's the beauty of the Gospel right there. Luke, you want to jump in on any of this?

[Luke the Bear]

I think you pretty well thoroughly made a point there.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Okay, good. So let me just. Let me finish it with this because there's so much more that we could say. But. Okay, now here's what's important.

[Luke the Bear]

I'm excited to get to that video.

[Jeff the Ninja]

I know. Yeah, you're seeing it hanging up there right now. So here's. Here's what's. What's key, I think, where the wheels fall off for the person you're talking to who, who thinks they can earn their salvation when they hear grace. Grace, gift, gift, redemption, Christ, Jesus, propitiation. It's not through law. No one will be justified by law. So then it's the automatic. And listen, by the way, if you're preaching the gospel correctly, then you better hope that you hear this objection, because Paul anticipates it. Like, obviously, he knows. He's got the interlocular. The person in the background who's he's engaging with, sort of like pretending to engage with. He knows instinctively and through experience what the person is saying in the background to his gospel. And that's this question, oh, well, it's all of grace. It's all God. It's got nothing to do with you. Not your good deeds, not your righteousness. So what, what, we could just go on sinning? We can just. We don't need to obey the. The law of God anymore. And Paul makes it a point in Romans 3. 28. He says, and this is one of those faith alone statements. He says, for we hold that no one that. Sorry, we hold that one is justified by. Yeah, one careful now. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. That's faith alone, by the way. Faith and works. Faith by itself is faith alone apart from works. And then he says this. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? First question to ask, which law is he talking about? What's the law he's talking about in the context? The same law that will condemn you, the same law that cannot justify you. The same law that will shut everybody's mouth on the last day. That law. The law. The Torah. Torah. And he says this. He says, do we overthrow the Torah? Do we overthrow the law by this faith? Because we have faith in Jesus, we're just like, done with the law now. And Paul's response to that is, by no means, on the contrary, we establish the law. We uphold the law as Christians now because we're saved as a gift, because it's all of grace, because it's all through faith in Jesus. And we can't save ourselves. The law doesn't justify us. But now that we are having faith in Jesus, we are saved in Jesus, we are justified. Now actually look, look at us. We're upholding the law now. We obey the law. We want to obey the law. But here it is. And this is the final word. I hope Trump someone just finds a way to get this to our president and just share this and you know, let him hopefully watch this. I hope he hears this. What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather, according to the flesh. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about. But not before God. For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Quick point. When did that happen? What's he quoting from Genesis 15? And what is he referring to? Abraham believes God in his credited righteousness, he's justified. And when did that take place in his life and in the story of Abraham, it was before circumcision. So he has faith, he's justified, he's right with God. Before circumcision, any ritual, it's before the law was given. Hundreds of years, like 400 years before the law was given. And here's a key point too, that comes about later in the conversation with James. It was also like 20 years before Isaac was altar offered on the, on the altar. So what did Abraham offer? You're like, well, he was, you know, he was a righteous, devout man. He did circumcision. He, you know, he proved that he had faith in God because he offered his son Isaac on the altar. Right, but he was actually justified long before that. And it was empty hands. It was nothing. He did nothing. He had faith in God and God justified him. And Paul's argument is this. All of the Christian faith can be summarized in Father Abraham and it's his experience. That must be my experience like that.

[Luke the Bear]

Now.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Okay, let me think about it. What did he do? Well, no ritual, no law and no offering Isaac, no demonstrating his faith. He just believed and was credited righteousness. And Paul's point there couldn't be clearer. He says now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due. That was the point I'm making a minute ago. If you're working for it, that's a wage. You earn that as a paycheck and that's not gift. And to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies Here it is, the ungodly. His faith is counted as righteousness. Now, key issue here, man made religion, unlike that, Joseph Smith didn't like that in Mormonism, in the JST translation, which isn't a translation at all. It's a corruption of scripture. Joseph Smith came to that passage there and he's like that. That doesn't make any stinking sense. God justifies the wicked. No, that. That must be a mistranslation. It couldn't be that free. And so the jst, the Joseph Smith translation, he gets that text and he says, God does not justify the ungodly because man made religion can't see that. How does God look at a wicked person and say, you're declared righteous? How does he do that without perverting his own justice and lying about you? Well, he does it by substitution. He's already made that point propitiation, because Jesus did it. He's your substitute. He's the righteous one. You're not. God was just in condemning Jesus for your sins, and he is the justifier, the declaring righteous one of you because of Jesus. So God here is not looking at you as the wicked person saying, you know what? Nah, you're not so bad. Not so bad. So we're fine. That's not what actually happens. God's saying, no, you really are, and I declare you righteous on the basis of another. That's Paul's whole entire argument there. But here it is. Watch this. This is the final, beautiful ending to this. Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts or credits righteousness apart from works, so what President Trump hopefully will hear is that the way that God saves people and brings them to peace with himself is not through their good deeds, not anything will ever do. He counts you righteous apart from any of your works. And it says, blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. Now, two things, and we're done with this because it's beautiful and powerful, and I hope it blesses you today. Two things that happen here in the gospel. One, God counts you righteous, positively righteous. You're righteous apart from any of your work. And then he does something else too. He does not count or credit your sin against you. There's a positive imputation of righteousness and a not counting your sins against you. And as I always say, when I get to this point, if you're thinking about this right now, like man, that sounds too free, too powerful, too gift Too gracious, too amazing. I say welcome to the gospel. That's Paul's explanation of how justification takes place. And I pray that our president comes to know this gospel. This gospel. He's so close. So close.

[Luke the Bear]

It seems like just from that video that he's hoping his good works will outweigh the bad stuff he's done. Seems to be where he's at.

[Jeff the Ninja]

So, yeah, yeah. And so if you. I know that we have people in the White House who listen to us. I know that you do. I've spoken to some of you on the phone. And so if you would be so kind, would you pass this along or even just you can skip all the beginning stuff and just sort of get it marked it right. When we're speaking directly to President Trump, let them know we're praying for him, we love him, we want him to know God, and we want him to have the gift of eternal life. And so get this in front of the president because we want him to know the truth about the good news of Christ. And so we're going to go on in a minute here. I was able, I had the honor and the privilege to. To kind of sit in Charlie's seat at the University of Alabama for tpusa. Like I said, more is coming, Lord willing, more opportunities like that. They want me to do some more universities. So we're going to review just, you know, one of the more interesting characters from that evening. And we do hope it's a blessing to you, but we're going to do a quick commercial break here. We're going to go over there, come back here, spend some time on this. Hopefully, it's a blessing to you all. And Gabe, take it away.

[Gabe (Sponsor Announcer)]

The sponsor for this week's episode is Heritage Defense. Heritage Defense is a nonprofit legal advocacy organization dedicated to advancing the Kingdom of Christ by protecting and empowering the biblical family. If any three letter agencies show up at your door, have peace of mind knowing that an attorney who shares your values is available round the clock to advise and advocate for your family, protect your household today. Use the discount code apologia and get your first month's membership free. Visit heritagedefense.org for more.

[Jeff the Ninja]

What's up, everybody? Welcome back. So, TPUSA, Alabama, you know, it was interesting because when everything happened with Charlie, it was obviously put on hold immediately. And they messaged me the same day, actually. And they say, hey, Jeff, you know, we still want to do this, but obviously we need to put everything on hold right now, which I totally understood. And so we weren't sure if it was going to happen this year at all or November. And then it was like, yeah, then it was end of October. And then like, no, it's October 7th.

[Luke the Bear]

7Th.

[Jeff the Ninja]

And so, you know, one of the things initially was that it was going to be outside. And I was like, huh, why are you guys thinking that? You know, outside doesn't seem like the greatest idea right now. And then you've got, of course, you know, the incidents of people putting flyers around, you know, university campuses that have, like, TP usa calling it Target Practice usa. And so, you know, we took the measures that we needed to take. They put it indoors, which was good. And then they also. We had a security team. I had four guys, wonderful men from Apologia Church who dedicated themselves to come and watch my back and care for me. Just really an amazing security team. And I also was wearing a vest and all that stuff. And so we did everything could. And, you know, honestly, it was. We had way more supporters there that night. And so I was kind of. I felt like in many ways, I was just preaching to the, to the choir. We did have one interesting guy who was trying. I don't even. I don't know if he was just trying to be ironic or if he was trolling. I. I don't really know, except that if you watch this portion, we're not going to watch all of it today, but if you watch this portion, he. He clearly thought he was going to come and refute the abolitionist position with the Bible. And. And so I wanted to play that for you because that was one of the more interesting parts of the evening. By the way, everyone else who was there, thank you for being there. I love you guys. You guys were a huge blessing. And not that you weren't interesting, but this was, I think, for the show today, one of the more peculiar moments. So here we go.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Now, you said multiple times that you believe life begins at conception. Correct. Fertilizer, fertilization, conception. How would you reconcile that with verses like Genesis 2:7 and Exodus 21:22?

[Jeff the Ninja]

All right.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

The time came when Lord God formed a man's body from the dust of the ground and breathed into it the breath of life, and man became a living person.

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

All right, can. I'll handle this one and feel free to fill in. So this verse is talking about the beginning of all human life, where God breathes life into the very, very first human. And so that's where God then transmits. The Bible says that we're made in the image of God. Well, what does that Mean, how are we different from the animals? Well, God is a spirit, doesn't have a body like man, right? We have spirits as well that will live forever. And that way we're made in God's image. We also have the power of reason, word communication, like God. So this where God's breathing life into the man, he's breathing his spirit into the man in a way unique from all the animals. And so what's interesting, if we take it to mean literal breath, what's interesting is that what is breath? It's just respiration, right? Oxygen coming in, carbon dioxide going out. What's interesting is that from that moment, respiration never actually ceases. We see that and I'm going to get like biological here, but we see that actually sperm actually respirates, okay? And actually that baby, even from the moment of fertilization, when you have the sperm and the egg come together, that baby, even before the baby is actually attached to the mother, that baby is actually. Oxygen's coming in and carbon dioxide is going out from the very beginning. So if we're taking that passage to mean biological, well, we had God breathed in. Respiration began with the first man and it's continued ever since, unstopped. There's been respiration forever. And so if we're saying, wow, you've got to have respiration, you gotta have breath, well, you got that from the moment of fertilization that's going on.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Quick point. You said that Genesis 2:7 is the song.

[Jeff the Ninja]

This is an interesting and strange argument even amongst some professing believers. I don't know why they go here, but they do. And it seems so obviously a category error. They'll say, well, you know, it's when you take your first breath because Adam is formed from the dust of the earth and he takes his first breath. It's like, well, Adam was the first human being created like that. Every other human being is formed and knitted together in their mothers wombs. And so it just seems like such an obvious category error. Why are you trying to compare the human experience post Adam and Eve to Adam's experience where God creates first out of nothing, ex and hilo. And then he creates all these glorious things and creatures and sea creatures and all that stuff. And then he forms man from the dust of the earth and he, you know, breathes life into him and he's the first, he's the first living being, you know, human being, image of God. God. So there's something unique there taking place with God and God's spirit, where he's breathing the breath of life into Adam. But after that post, Adam and Eve, all of us are formed a different way. Not on the dust of the earth, in our mother's wombs.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff the Ninja]

And I, I do love how Bradley just takes the legs off of that one by demonstrating actually respiration hasn't actually ever ceased since that point. There's always.

[Luke the Bear]

He's a smart guy.

[Jeff the Ninja]

He's a brilliant, brilliant guy. And Hannah, handsome.

[Luke the Bear]

Is that why they gave him the taller stool?

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yeah. What was with that just now making me notice that? Was that for a purpose?

[Luke the Bear]

It's. Something's not right there.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Bradley, did you plan that? Did you plan that? So, yeah, but that, that comes up and, and I, I just, I've never even. I've never understood why some people bring that argument up. I think it's just such a fallacious argument in such a category error. It doesn't deserve, you know, extended response. But there you go. Yeah. So I kind of got a fix on where the guy was going at this point. All right, so he's got his Bible, he's dressed like first century disciple or something. I don't know why he did that. I don't know if he was serious at this point. I really don't know. But I got sort of the picture of where he was trying to go. Here's more.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Now, just prior to that, in Genesis 1:27, also for the creation of man, do you consider Genesis 2:7 to be the creation of Adam specifically, or is mankind as whole?

[Bradley Pierce]

No, it's a, it's a common form of writing in, in Near Eastern context where you have the same account, different details. It's not, it's not two different creation accounts. It's the same account with different details in each, in each side.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

And my second point, and you actually mentioned this, which surprised me a little bit, Exodus 21:22, if two men are fighting and in the process hurt a pregnant woman so that she has a miscarriage, but she lives, the man who injures her shall be fined whatever amount the woman's husband shall be demand, and as the judges approve. But if any harm comes to the woman and she dies, he shall be executed. Some would say that that equates the fetus to having property value as opposed to a person's value, since the offender does not need to be executed.

[Jeff the Ninja]

No, it feels fine.

[Bradley Pierce]

There's no harm. The point there in a text is clearly you can do the exegesis of the language itself if there's no harm related to the woman and the unborn child inside of her, there's a fine, essentially. Essentially, for the harm that was caused. But if harm that leads to death, then it's eye for eye, life for life, tooth for tooth. And so that's actually a good case there where God demonstrates that the value of the human life in the womb is the same value of the life that's outside of the womb. It has the same standard of justice.

[Jeff the Ninja]

So the text is Exodus 21, verse 22, case law. Now, here's what's important. Some people will look at the case law examples in the Torah, in the books of Moses, and it'll seem strange to them, like, well, that's weird. Like, what's. It seems like a really specific case. And what they don't understand maybe, is that what you have being employed in the Mosaic legislation is you have case law examples. So essentially, you're getting a story, a portrait that you can draw principles and examples out into other incidents. And so, by the way, the case law examples in the Mosaic legislation form the basis for the case law system that we have in the United States of America. So, you know, as an example, you know, they'll quote, you know, such and such versus such and such, and they'll give the case law example in this. In this situation. It was ruled this way on these principles. And so then people will take that case law that's settled, and then they'll draw that into other cases that are going on across the country. And that's why lawyers will be quoting from law libraries. Oh, in this case, Smith vs. Johnson, under the federal appeals court, such and such, it was ruled. And so we have precedent. We have an idea of what to do because of these principles of justice in this current case. And so that's what you have here. And that's why it's, you know, seems odd, like, well, two guys are fighting, and there's a pregnant woman, and then, like, they accidentally, because of that, like, she. Her children come out. Out. Okay? So the. The issue is, this is case law. Okay? So if this happens and the woman's children come out, then. And there's no harm. Well, harm. What do you mean, no harm? Well, her children came out, right? Like, harm to her, harm to the babies. Scripture clearly has image bearers of God from the beginning. And you've got numerous examples in Scripture of. Of the value of the life in the womb, and God speaking to the value of the life in the womb. Psalm 139, God says, He knit you together in your mother's womb. Who's in his. Together you. You. He knits me together, Mother's womb. It's God's handiwork. My life, everything about me is God's handiwork. He does that work in the womb, not outside the womb, inside the womb. And so you have here the example of men are striving together. They hit a pregnant woman and the children come out, but there is no harm. All right, but no harm. What's that mean? Well, the answer is there. The one who hit the. The hitter shall surely be fined as the woman's husband shall impose on him him and he shall pay as the judges determine. So the judges have to sort at that point go, okay, well, how much harm was done? You know, how, how much time does she have to take off of work? How many days was she bedridden? How long does she take to heal? You know, are there any long term damage? Is there any long term damage to her? You know, did she break a bone or something like that? How about the baby? All right, so what condition are the babies in? So the judges have to determine what's the right amount of money to pay as a fine in this case. Because is, because when the harm's being, by the way, the harm is being defined here. All right, that's what, that's what's key. Listen to what it says. But if there is harm, then you should pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe, and that's equal justice. So scripture has that equal justice. And by the way, people have said, you know, Jesus does away with that. No, no, Matthew, chapter five, the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus is not repudiating equal justice there. If he did, by the way, he would not be the Messiah. If Jesus voids equal justice in God's law and says that's not important any longer, then you have every reason to believe that Jesus is a false messiah. If he's going to subvert the law of God and, and accuse God of injustice in some way, then he's not the Messiah. And he's certainly not God in who influence flesh speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Jesus was there in the Sermon on the Mount, was speaking against their abuse of this text for personal retaliation. This is justice in the courts. The judges are even mentioned here. All right, this is a court context. Judges are determining and it's eye for eye, tooth for tooth, burn for burn, foot for foot, all of that, equal justice. And so the text is clear. It's A case law example of what do you do when striving woman gets hurt? She's pregnant, babies come out. All right, what happened? Is she okay or the baby's okay? Okay. All right, so what's the fine that's going to be imposed here for what you did? But if there's harm, right, Then it has to be equal justice, like if the baby dies, life or life. If the mom dies, life or life, it's capital punishment at that point. And so that's pretty amazing example of God actually showing that he values the preborn life in the same way he values all other life, because the standard is the same across the board. It's equal justice, life for life. Powerful point.

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah. I mean, that's kind of a silly argument we've seen and demolished quite often, but maybe that guy really likes Star Wars.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yeah. I'm wondering. It does kind of look like Obi Wan, doesn't he?

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yeah.

[Luke the Bear]

Just missing his lightsaber.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Yeah, that's true. All right. And it goes on. Maybe we will get through most of this. I forget, can I ask you what.

[Bradley Pierce]

From what position are you coming from? You've got a. I gotta get you a new Bible, brother. Yeah.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

It survived Katrina, actually, so it's kind of precious to me.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Okay.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

It's new international version. I don't know if that's your preferred.

[Bradley Pierce]

No, no, yeah, it's. I like the older new international version. Yeah. But what perspective are you coming from? Are you a Christian?

[Audience Member / Questioner]

I am, yes.

[Bradley Pierce]

Okay.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

I am a believer of Christ's divinity and his teachings.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Okay, good.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

And I believe throughout the Gospels there's example of when faced with a choice between moral law and showing mercy, he shows mercy. In the case of the woman accused of adultery, she was accused by law she should be put to death. But he came in and denied the death sentence and showed her mercy.

[Bradley Pierce]

No, he didn't. That's actually not what took place there. So the first thing I would point to in the account of the adulterous woman is that's an interesting example of the transmission of the text of the Bible. It's amazing how God has preserved His Word. Even the greatest critics of the Bible, you know, have said that. We know what the original Bible said. We have differences in manuscripts and things like that, but God's preserved His Word throughout time. We can know what the. The original text was based upon the manuscript tradition that we have. But what's interesting is that we have a limited number of things that are meaningful and viable differences between the text and tradition. So for example, the account of the adulterous woman. Unfortunately, I don't want to burst any bubbles here. The account of the adulterous woman, I believe, is something that actually did happen in Jesus ministry. Like the apostle John says that there were so many things that Jesus did in his ministry. If we were to write them all down, the whole world couldn't contain the book books. I think that the account of the adulterous woman actually happened. It was a tradition of Christians. They passed down one of the stories of the amazing things that Jesus did. But you find it actually.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Sort of.

[Bradley Pierce]

Not finding a home in the text as the manuscripts are coming up. In one place it's in this gospel, next place, it's in another. It's possible that it was written down as a Christian tradition in one of the scrolls as a side thing, and it found its way into the text. So most of your modern Bibles today will bracket around that text of the account of the adulterous woman. In terms of this is probably not inspired revelation, but I believe it's something that actually took place. Now let's get to the story itself.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Jesus was so important conversation. If you're new to the Christian faith, you're like, what's that all about? We have such powerful testimony of God preserving his word. And so what you have, if you don't understand this conversation is happening, we're here now is you have the autographer. That's the original. That's what Paul wrote down. That's what Peter wrote down. That's what Matthew wrote down. So you're talking about the original. This is what they penned with their own hand kind of thing. Then there was no controlling authority in the Christian church. None. No one, like, overseeing the transmission of the text. It happened sovereignly, providentially, and it happened organically. All right, Nobody was controlling this process. So, you know, Matthew writes his gospel and then he gives. He shares that with other Christians and then they make their own copy. And then, you know, copies are made and they're passing. It's happening organically. There's no one in charge of the process, standing above it, making sure, you know, we keep control of this. And all those things didn't happen. I mean, Islam has something like that for sure, in burning, you know, all contrary evidence and things like that. However, the text of the Bible is something that God sovereignly brings through history. And so we have this amazing manuscript tradition of the New Testament text. So from the Gospels to the letters, all that stuff, Book of Revelation, and so that just goes through history. Just in God's providence. It's just passed through history. And we have over 5,800 Greek manuscript pieces and copies of the New Testament texts. And that's a lot. That is a lot in, in terms of antiquity and works coming up through antiquity. Nothing even comes close. Nothing even comes close hundreds of. Of times over. Over. And it's, it's, it's an amazing, glorious story of the textual, the transition of the text of the Bible. But now what you're dealing with, though, is fallible human beings, scribes, people who are copying. You have scriptoriums where people are, you know, literally, you know, their job is to just copy the text, copy the text. And so what you have is the text being transmitted through history. You've got people that have their own personal copies, and you do have scribal errors. And so you have misspellings of words. You have maybe a moment where in one text the scribe is, you know, been doing this all day long. Maybe it's dark in the room he's in, and his eyes are tired, and so he skips a line or something like that. You know, he's. His eye jumps a line as he's, as he's copying, or he misspells a word or something like that. So you do have those kind of errors in the text, you know, not the autographer, in the copies that are coming through history. And you have some instances where you have something like the account of the adulterous woman where suddenly that. That's in one gospel and then it finds its way in another text, like in another gospel, and it's like it can't seem to find a home. So how that happened? Well, there's not a lot of this at all. It's like, you know, you have, you know, very limited. That's why you see in, like, the, the modern translations, you'll see brackets around, like, the longer ending of Mark and the account of the adulterous woman. It's basically it. And that, that's, that's okay. Just so you know, this is not in the earliest manuscripts. And that's the key issue. Like, do we know what the original Bible said?

[Bradley Pierce]

Yes.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Why? Because of the manuscript tradition. Because you, you have this, this great, beautiful consistency through all the text, through all the time. And then you get something like the long running of Mark, and you're like, oh, here's the problem. Like, that sort of like, isn't part. That's not in the original, that's not in the earliest manuscripts. And then the account of the adulterers won't woman. You're like, yeah, that's sort of like making its way in rounds around the Gospels. Like, no one knows where to put it. It's because it appeared somewhere. And it may have been speculation here. It may have been someone, you know, they have their copy, and then they have this tradition that's come up from Christians all the way through hundreds of years about Jesus and the adulterous woman. And they. Maybe they write it in somewhere on this scroll, and then someone else down the line gets that scroll, and they're like, hmm, I've heard that story too. And here it is over here on the side or something like that. And they go, you know, let's. Let's make a copy of this again and let's put it right here. So people hear that story. It's possible. How to happen? But how do you ascertain that that was original or not? You look at the earliest manuscripts and you go, it's not in the earliest manuscripts. So what I was getting out there is that, you know what the original text says because of the manuscript tradition. But stories like the print, the account of the adulterous woman, you have to just say, you know, know what? Probably a tradition passed down by Christians that everyone knew this story, but not something that John wrote. You know, it wasn't. It wasn't something that was in that original gospel that was penned. And so that's all I was saying there. However, I do believe that it happened. I do believe that. And it's not saying what he thinks it's saying here.

[Bradley Pierce]

It is not in that place actually now, nullifying capital punishment. Actually, Jesus was demonstrating there that he actually upholds the law of God in a way that they were not. So, for example, they bring a woman to the crowd, and they say, we found her in the very act of adultery.

[Jeff the Ninja]

So the first thing that a good.

[Bradley Pierce]

Judge has to do there, and Jesus is the perfect judge, he knows the law of God. He can ask the first question that's, oh, you found her in the act.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Where's the dude?

[Bradley Pierce]

Where's the guy?

[Jeff the Ninja]

Right?

[Bradley Pierce]

And also, the law of God is completely against. It forbids mob justice. And what was taking place there on the street, there was mob justice. We have a crowd saying, we found her in the act of adultery. Where's the guy? Where's the cross examination? Where are the witnesses? In God's law, when there are witnesses, the witnesses. This is in Deuteronomy, chapter 19. You can't have a single witness against a person from an Accusation or penalty. There must be two to three independent lines of testimony. Right. It's a very powerful part of God's law. It's something that was actually part of the American experiment as well. John Jay, our first Supreme Court justice.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Would refer to that law.

[Bradley Pierce]

In God's case law system, you have to have independent lines of testimony and evidence. And God's law says that you are not allowed to have a single witness against somebody. But when there's a witness against somebody, the witness has to be brought to be cross examined. So everything that took place right there in that street at that moment according to God's law was forbidden by God's law. A mob forms and says, here's a woman we caught in the very act. Okay, this isn't proper. Where's the cross examination? Where's the witness, where's the evidence? And where's the dude that you caught? And so that Jesus comes in the.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Story, and I do believe it really happened.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Absolutely.

[Bradley Pierce]

Jesus starts writing stuff down in the sand. Now the question of the ages is what was Jesus writing in the sand? Well, I think you can do some holy speculation here, and that's that Jesus was writing in the sand as the perfect judge. And one of the things that you couldn't do under God's law is you couldn't accuse somebody and be charging somebody for something that you yourself were guilty of. And so whatever Jesus was writing in the sand there caused all those dudes with rocks to start dropping their stones and walking away. And so Jesus says, where are your accusers? She says, nowhere, Lord. He says, neither do I accuse you. Go and sin no more. That is not Jesus nullifying the death penalty. That is Jesus actually upholding God's standards of justice for the accused.

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

And he actually affirms the death penalty because he says, okay, whoever without sin, let him cast the first stone.

[Bradley Pierce]

Yeah, that's an affirmation.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

But no man is without sin. So who would be eligible as executioner in that case?

[Bradley Pierce]

In that category, they were saying, she's guilty of this sin that deserves death. So now he's bringing the law of God to bear and saying, if you're without sin, in other words, what you're accusing her of here, then cast the stone.

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

Right. Actually, in the law we have this concept called the doctrine of clean hands, which means you cannot come like accusing someone of something if your hands are dirty, if you had something to do with entrapment or somehow creating the situation, or if you're guilty of this thing yourself. And so that's what Commentators believe not everybody, but most people agree that that's what was going on there. Jesus was saying, not whoever here is without sin, that is sinless, but whoever is without sin in this matter.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Right.

[Bradley Pierce]

It's one of the amazing things, right, about Jesus teaching where he talks about removing the speck from somebody's eye. When you have a log on your own, that's meant to be cartoonish, right.

[Jeff the Ninja]

You're supposed to feel the weight of.

[Bradley Pierce]

That like a cartoon. You're going to try to grab this while out of your eyeball is a log swinging. The person's like ducking out of the way. And that's similar in principle to what we're talking about here. The law of God would not allow you to bring charges against somebody that you yourself were guilty of.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Something we can learn about really well.

[Bradley Pierce]

In the Christian church today in terms of accusations and charges against others. Dollars.

[Jeff the Ninja]

So that goes on. If you haven't seen it, it is up on our channel right now. So after the show today, go and take a look at that. We're take a quick break. Commercial break.

[Luke the Bear]

That's we're it.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Oh, that's it.

[Luke the Bear]

That's three.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Oh that. We're done. Oh yeah, you gotta go too, right? Yeah, right on anything else we need to talk about, everyone go to apologiesstudios.com get yourself some tracks. We have all the tracks. There's swag there, there's t shirts there. Apologiestudios.com go to the store, get all the stuff. So grateful to hear how people purchase these tracks and they're using them all over the world. The Gospel for Mormons track tract. This the basic gospel tract of what is the good news of God. And Pastor Luke's track Hope for tomorrow for people struggling with depression or thoughts of suicide. Those kinds of things. Just a. A blessing. All those are available there. Luke, you want to point anything else out?

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah, I was gonna say too. We're just, just two months away from Christmas. I'm actually hoping to get up some stuff here quickly the next couple weeks for the Christmas rush. You'll be looking for that. And we will have a Black Friday sale again this year and some stuff. So be looking for that. And of course I want to thank amtech Blades, Bill Rapier, amazing brother and legendary dev group operator, Navy Seal. He makes some amazing blades. You go to amtacblades.com put apology in the coupon code and get 5% off your order. He will match 5% to help us save babies and we're grateful for him and that's all I got.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Also forgot to announce next week. Next week? Oh, you're gonna have to do a show next week by yourself.

[Luke the Bear]

No, I'm not gonna be here.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Oh, really?

[Luke the Bear]

Yeah, really. Where are you going? Remember, I'm gonna be out of town for a few days.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right. I was like, wait, are you coming to Moscow?

[Bradley Pierce]

Like, it's all over.

[Luke the Bear]

No, no, no.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So okay, that's what I was thinking. I was like, are you gonna come? I was, I was getting all excited. I was like, wait, are you coming?

[Luke the Bear]

Oh, sorry.

[Jeff the Ninja]

No, I was, I was super excited about that. Okay.

[Luke the Bear]

I wish I could.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Bummer. All right. So anyway, so next week I'm going to be in Moscow, Idaho with Bradley Pierce and we're going to be debating our good friends Douglas Wilson and Toby Sumter on Smash Mouth. Incrementalism versus abolition. Abolitionism. And so that's coming. It's going to be the 24th next. Not this Friday, next Friday, the 24th. The event is being held at Moscow Church of the Nazarene. And that is 1400 East 7th Street, Moscow, Idaho, 83843. Doors open at 5:15pm Debate starts at 6:00pm so you do have to get tickets for it. And so to get tickets go to faa.life/debate. Faa.life/debate. You do need tickets. And so you got to go to that site, that link and get your tickets again next Friday. Love to see you there. Important conversation. Honored to be doing this with Bradley and also with our good friends Douglas Wilson and Toby Sumter. And so that's happening very, very soon. Please pray for us. Please pray for them. Please pray that God would be glorified and that the truth would, would come in in laser sharp focus. And so that's happening next week. Don't forget to go everyone to endabortionnow.com sign your church up to get out on the street to save babies. Tens of thousands of babies have been saved as a result of this war work. We have bills coming into states across the country next year, next session. Don't forget to meet me in Georgia on November 4th at Praise Mill Church at 5:30. And Lots is happening. If you can also give, please do [e-mail] we do need your, your giving and your prayers to help us to execute this mission faithfully. That's Luke the Bear and there's a.

[Luke the Bear]

Couple super chats I want to mention too.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Oh, go ahead.

[Luke the Bear]

Bribery. Bribery. Cruise. God bless you all. Thank you so much. Appreciate that. And. And Bubba Olivera and Joseph Carlson, thank you for your work. He says, thank you, guys. Appreciate your support.

[Jeff the Ninja]

Thank you so much. God bless you guys. Look, the bear. I'm Jeff. They call me the Ninja.

[Bradley Pierce]

Peace out.

[Jeff the Ninja]

We'll see you next week on Apology Radio.