Apologia Radio, Episode 551: "Debating Calvinism With A Mormon"

Host: Jeff Durbin (A)
Guests: Luke the Bear (C), Timothy “Tim” Berman (B; Ex-Calvinist, Latter-Day Saint, recovery ministry leader)
Date: December 5, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Jeff Durbin joins with Luke and guest Timothy Berman—a former Calvinist turned Latter-Day Saint—to engage in a robust and candid discussion centering on the nature of God, Mormon theology, monotheism, polytheism, and foundational Calvinist doctrines. The conversation delves into Tim’s spiritual journey, LDS apologetics, classic passages on God’s nature, the challenges of “street evangelism” approaches, and a nuanced debate over the doctrines of grace (TULIP). Moments of tension give way to mutual respect and apology, culminating in a thought-provoking dialogue aimed at fostering understanding between Christians and Latter-Day Saints.

Major Themes & Structure

• Introductions and Tim’s Testimony (Supporting timestamp: 06:25–09:00)
• Evangelism Encounters and LDS Response (10:55–13:44)
• The Nature of God: LDS vs. Historic Christianity (14:11–42:03+)
• Debate over Michael Heiser’s Scholarship (24:06–41:47)
• Calvinism, Total Depravity, and Doctrines of Grace (69:23–91:09)
• Apology and Reconciliation over Motives and Methods (64:17–67:20)
• Concluding Remarks and Future Discussions (91:09–end)

Detailed Breakdown

1. Introductions and Background ([06:08]–[09:03])

Key Points:

• Tim shares his background: grew up LDS, left for 15 years, explored Calvinism and attended various Protestant churches before returning to LDS faith.
• Active in Celebrate Recovery and addiction ministry; runs YouTube channel Sacred Sobriety Path for the Soul.
• Jeff reveals Apologia Church grew out of rehab ministry: “Apologia church came out of a drug and alcohol rehab facility, a hospital where I was a chaplain for many years.” ([08:08])

Notable Quotes:

• Jeff: “We could have some, some great conversations on that.” ([08:34])
• Tim: “21 years over alcohol ... 11 years thriving from overcoming codependency and toxic relationships.” ([08:42])

2. Street Evangelism Encounter Discussion ([10:55]–[13:44])

Subject: LDS perceptions of street evangelism methods

• Jeff plays a clip from Apologia's street engagement with a Mormon woman.
• Tim critiques "rapid-fire" apologetics as “railroading”—overwhelming people without space for genuine dialogue.

Notable Quote:

• Tim: “A lot of times they're railroaded ... with a bunch of rapid fire things where they don't have time to answer ... to have a healthy conversation ... be open and receptive.” ([12:29])

3. The Nature of God: Mormonism vs. Christianity ([14:11]–[55:12])

Key Points

• Monotheism vs. Polytheism:

  • Jeff presses: “Would you say that you believe there is only one true God?” ([14:11])
  • Tim offers nuanced answers: speaks of “one true God in the reality we know,” but concedes LDS theology includes three separate “personages,” agrees with Joseph Smith’s “three gods” statement ([18:30]).
  • Discusses “eternal now” and Jewish traditions about preexistence.

• King Follett Discourse & Evolution of LDS Theology:

  • Jeff cites Joseph Smith: “We’ve imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea...” ([19:35],[42:09])

  • Tim: Considers Smith’s teachings; admits speculativeness about God having a God before Him.

• Scripture Showdown:

  • Jeff appeals to Isaiah 44:6—“I am the first and I am the last. Besides me, there is no God.” ([29:24])
  • Tim attempts to contextualize via Heiser, Ancient Near East, and biblical idiom.
  • Jeff insists: “God says ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. That’s just not about...incomparability.” ([37:11])

Notable Exchanges & Timestamps

• Modalism Accusation

  • Tim: "I've actually met people who ... hold to a modelistic viewpoint of Trinity" ([30:03])
  • Pushback from Jeff and Luke: “You’ve never met a Calvinist who knows Calvinist theology … who believes in modalism. That’s heresy.” ([31:17])

• Multiple Gods Issue

  • Jeff: “So you do believe that God had a God before him...and that you'll become one one day.” ([42:24])
  • Tim: “Yes.” ([42:30])

• Contradiction in Mormon Claims

  • Jeff: “How is Jesus the eternal God when Joseph Smith says that God came to be God and he refutes the idea that there’s an eternal God?” ([45:01])

• Resolution of Tone

  • Tensions over Heiser and context, some raised voices, Tim admits: “If I made statements towards that, then I apologize for that.” ([65:37])

4. The Michael Heiser Debate ([24:06]–[41:47])

Summary:

• Tim leans on Dr. Michael Heiser to support LDS conceptions of a heavenly "divine council."
• Jeff stresses Heiser’s monotheism and trinitarianism, refuting Tim’s application: “Heiser did not believe...that those were by nature God. He says there is only one of those..." ([25:15])
• Prolonged attempt by Tim to read/quote Heiser; hosts emphasize scriptural authority over any scholar.

Standout Moment:

• “If you’re trying to say Michael Heiser ... was saying that there are other heavenly beings that are by nature God ... you are outright lying about the man. That is not what he taught." – Jeff ([36:30])

5. Apology and Motives ([64:17]–[67:20])

Subject: Addressing charge that Apologia targets Mormons “for money”

Key Point:

• Jeff asks for evidence of motives: “What evidence...to make those public claims?” ([64:17])
• Tim concedes “I have no idea” about their salaries/funding, owns to slander, and apologizes: “I apologize for that ... I'm willing to own up to it.” ([65:37])

Quote:

• Jeff: “My motivation ... is I love the Mormon people.” ([66:25])

6. Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace ([69:09]–[91:09])

Key Segments:

• Tim’s Spiritual Journey: From LDS → Calvinism (Calvary Chapel, Reformed authors, drinking buddy debates) → LDS return.

• Total Depravity:

  • Tim critiques it as “a rebranding of the Gnostic idea ... material world is utterly and completely corrupted.” ([72:39])
  • Jeff pushes back: “That has nothing to do with what the Gnostics were saying ... Reformed folks would do is ... this depravity, this inability, this fallenness is spiritual in nature.” ([75:55])

• Debate Over John 6:44:

  • Jeff presents: “No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him...”
  • Tim: “He's speaking to a specific audience ... it's kind of a rhetorical statement.” ([84:15])

• Points of Agreement:

  • Both acknowledge the reality of spiritual enslavement/addiction as metaphor for inability.
  • Some LDS frameworks on “perseverance” seen as compatible with Reformed ideas.

Notable Quote:

• Jeff: “It seems like you haven't shaken some of your Calvinism loose yet.” ([90:00])
• Tim: “No, actually I did a video on Perseverance of the Saints ... I can actually see within the LDS framework …” ([90:00])

7. Conclusion & Potential Future Dialogue ([91:09]–end)

• Jeff commends Tim: “You are an honorable man, Tim. You're an honorable man.”
• Talk of resuming discussion (“Maybe we'll talk again in the future...where your whole team comes on...”) ([93:00])
• Mutual encouragement and commitment to respectful engagement.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On LDS Polytheism:

  • “We have three gods over this earth. But you also believe that Elohim had a God before him, correct?” – Jeff ([18:52])
  • “We don't know ... There's not enough revelation to understand or know what that all entailed.” – Tim ([18:54])

• On Total Depravity:

  • “I see it as a rebranding of the Gnostic idea ... That was prominent towards the end of the first century...” – Tim ([72:39])
  • “We would ... make sure they clearly communicate this depravity ... is spiritual in nature...” – Jeff ([75:55])

• On Method and Motive:

  • “When you make public claims that we're doing this for money but you don't actually have any evidence of that, isn't that just slander?” – Jeff ([65:31])
  • “If I made statements towards that, then I apologize for that ... I'm willing to own up to it.” – Tim ([65:37])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Tim’s Testimony & Recovery Ministry: [06:08]–[09:02]
• Evangelism Encounter & Railroading Accusation: [10:55]–[13:44]
• Unpacking LDS Polytheism/Heavenly Council: [14:11]–[19:14]
• King Follett Discourse—God Was Once a Man: [19:35]–[24:06], [42:03]–[46:08]
• Michael Heiser/Divine Council Debate: [24:06]–[41:47]
• Isaiah 44:6 & The One God Texts: [29:24], [32:10], [37:11]
• Modalism Misunderstanding: [30:03]–[31:22]
• Charges of Slander/Financial Motive: [64:17]–[67:20]
• Calvinism/Journey and Doctrines of Grace: [69:09]–[91:09]
• Addiction, Depravity, and John 6:44: [75:32], [80:40]
• Mutual Respect & Planning Future Dialogue: [91:09]–end

Tone & Language

• Tone: Direct, occasionally tense but largely respectful, earnest, sometimes playful (Christmas references, mutual congratulation), ultimately conciliatory.
• Language: Theological, at times technical, but frequently explained in personal terms (testimony, addiction, practical ministry).
• Notable: Tim is forthright about past mistakes and open to correction, and Jeff repeatedly clarifies and provides context for key doctrinal differences.

Memorable Moments

• Unexpected Agreement on Recovery Ministry: Both men’s extensive experience with addiction and recovery shapes their empathetic approach. ([06:08]–[09:03])
• Heated “Heiser” Debate: Both sides cite Michael Heiser but diverge sharply on what his scholarship means in the LDS/Christian context. ([24:06]–[41:47])
• Honest Apology: Tim sincerely apologizes for previously assigning financial motives to Apologia. ([65:37])
• Friendly Conclusion: Plans for future dialogue; mutual affirmation and blessings for Christmas.

For Listeners:

If you missed the episode, this wide-ranging discussion provides deep insight into the real—often difficult—differences between Christianity and Mormonism on the nature of God, highlights the importance of careful theological dialogue, and demonstrates that gracious conversation is possible even amid sharp disagreement.

Best Quote for the Episode:

“My motivation here ... is I love the Mormon people. ... I fell in love with your people in your community. So I love the Mormon people.”
— Jeff Durbin ([66:25])