551. Debating Calvinism With A Mormon

Summary

Apologia Radio, Episode 551: "Debating Calvinism With A Mormon"

Host: Jeff Durbin (A)
Guests: Luke the Bear (C), Timothy “Tim” Berman (B; Ex-Calvinist, Latter-Day Saint, recovery ministry leader)
Date: December 5, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Jeff Durbin joins with Luke and guest Timothy Berman—a former Calvinist turned Latter-Day Saint—to engage in a robust and candid discussion centering on the nature of God, Mormon theology, monotheism, polytheism, and foundational Calvinist doctrines. The conversation delves into Tim’s spiritual journey, LDS apologetics, classic passages on God’s nature, the challenges of “street evangelism” approaches, and a nuanced debate over the doctrines of grace (TULIP). Moments of tension give way to mutual respect and apology, culminating in a thought-provoking dialogue aimed at fostering understanding between Christians and Latter-Day Saints.

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Major Themes & Structure

• Introductions and Tim’s Testimony (Supporting timestamp: 06:25–09:00)
• Evangelism Encounters and LDS Response (10:55–13:44)
• The Nature of God: LDS vs. Historic Christianity (14:11–42:03+)
• Debate over Michael Heiser’s Scholarship (24:06–41:47)
• Calvinism, Total Depravity, and Doctrines of Grace (69:23–91:09)
• Apology and Reconciliation over Motives and Methods (64:17–67:20)
• Concluding Remarks and Future Discussions (91:09–end)

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Detailed Breakdown

1. Introductions and Background ([06:08]–[09:03])

Key Points:

• Tim shares his background: grew up LDS, left for 15 years, explored Calvinism and attended various Protestant churches before returning to LDS faith.
• Active in Celebrate Recovery and addiction ministry; runs YouTube channel Sacred Sobriety Path for the Soul.
• Jeff reveals Apologia Church grew out of rehab ministry: “Apologia church came out of a drug and alcohol rehab facility, a hospital where I was a chaplain for many years.” ([08:08])

Notable Quotes:

• Jeff: “We could have some, some great conversations on that.” ([08:34])
• Tim: “21 years over alcohol ... 11 years thriving from overcoming codependency and toxic relationships.” ([08:42])

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2. Street Evangelism Encounter Discussion ([10:55]–[13:44])

Subject: LDS perceptions of street evangelism methods

• Jeff plays a clip from Apologia's street engagement with a Mormon woman.
• Tim critiques "rapid-fire" apologetics as “railroading”—overwhelming people without space for genuine dialogue.

Notable Quote:

• Tim: “A lot of times they're railroaded ... with a bunch of rapid fire things where they don't have time to answer ... to have a healthy conversation ... be open and receptive.” ([12:29])

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3. The Nature of God: Mormonism vs. Christianity ([14:11]–[55:12])

Key Points

• Monotheism vs. Polytheism:

  • Jeff presses: “Would you say that you believe there is only one true God?” ([14:11])
  • Tim offers nuanced answers: speaks of “one true God in the reality we know,” but concedes LDS theology includes three separate “personages,” agrees with Joseph Smith’s “three gods” statement ([18:30]).
  • Discusses “eternal now” and Jewish traditions about preexistence.

• King Follett Discourse & Evolution of LDS Theology:

  • Jeff cites Joseph Smith: “We’ve imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea...” ([19:35],[42:09])

  • Tim: Considers Smith’s teachings; admits speculativeness about God having a God before Him.

• Scripture Showdown:

  • Jeff appeals to Isaiah 44:6—“I am the first and I am the last. Besides me, there is no God.” ([29:24])
  • Tim attempts to contextualize via Heiser, Ancient Near East, and biblical idiom.
  • Jeff insists: “God says ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. That’s just not about...incomparability.” ([37:11])

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Notable Exchanges & Timestamps

• Modalism Accusation

  • Tim: "I've actually met people who ... hold to a modelistic viewpoint of Trinity" ([30:03])
  • Pushback from Jeff and Luke: “You’ve never met a Calvinist who knows Calvinist theology … who believes in modalism. That’s heresy.” ([31:17])

• Multiple Gods Issue

  • Jeff: “So you do believe that God had a God before him...and that you'll become one one day.” ([42:24])
  • Tim: “Yes.” ([42:30])

• Contradiction in Mormon Claims

  • Jeff: “How is Jesus the eternal God when Joseph Smith says that God came to be God and he refutes the idea that there’s an eternal God?” ([45:01])

• Resolution of Tone

  • Tensions over Heiser and context, some raised voices, Tim admits: “If I made statements towards that, then I apologize for that.” ([65:37])

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4. The Michael Heiser Debate ([24:06]–[41:47])

Summary:

• Tim leans on Dr. Michael Heiser to support LDS conceptions of a heavenly "divine council."
• Jeff stresses Heiser’s monotheism and trinitarianism, refuting Tim’s application: “Heiser did not believe...that those were by nature God. He says there is only one of those..." ([25:15])
• Prolonged attempt by Tim to read/quote Heiser; hosts emphasize scriptural authority over any scholar.

Standout Moment:

• “If you’re trying to say Michael Heiser ... was saying that there are other heavenly beings that are by nature God ... you are outright lying about the man. That is not what he taught." – Jeff ([36:30])

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5. Apology and Motives ([64:17]–[67:20])

Subject: Addressing charge that Apologia targets Mormons “for money”

Key Point:

• Jeff asks for evidence of motives: “What evidence...to make those public claims?” ([64:17])
• Tim concedes “I have no idea” about their salaries/funding, owns to slander, and apologizes: “I apologize for that ... I'm willing to own up to it.” ([65:37])

Quote:

• Jeff: “My motivation ... is I love the Mormon people.” ([66:25])

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6. Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace ([69:09]–[91:09])

Key Segments:

• Tim’s Spiritual Journey: From LDS → Calvinism (Calvary Chapel, Reformed authors, drinking buddy debates) → LDS return.

• Total Depravity:

  • Tim critiques it as “a rebranding of the Gnostic idea ... material world is utterly and completely corrupted.” ([72:39])
  • Jeff pushes back: “That has nothing to do with what the Gnostics were saying ... Reformed folks would do is ... this depravity, this inability, this fallenness is spiritual in nature.” ([75:55])

• Debate Over John 6:44:

  • Jeff presents: “No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him...”
  • Tim: “He's speaking to a specific audience ... it's kind of a rhetorical statement.” ([84:15])

• Points of Agreement:

  • Both acknowledge the reality of spiritual enslavement/addiction as metaphor for inability.
  • Some LDS frameworks on “perseverance” seen as compatible with Reformed ideas.

Notable Quote:

• Jeff: “It seems like you haven't shaken some of your Calvinism loose yet.” ([90:00])
• Tim: “No, actually I did a video on Perseverance of the Saints ... I can actually see within the LDS framework …” ([90:00])

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7. Conclusion & Potential Future Dialogue ([91:09]–end)

• Jeff commends Tim: “You are an honorable man, Tim. You're an honorable man.”
• Talk of resuming discussion (“Maybe we'll talk again in the future...where your whole team comes on...”) ([93:00])
• Mutual encouragement and commitment to respectful engagement.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On LDS Polytheism:

  • “We have three gods over this earth. But you also believe that Elohim had a God before him, correct?” – Jeff ([18:52])
  • “We don't know ... There's not enough revelation to understand or know what that all entailed.” – Tim ([18:54])

• On Total Depravity:

  • “I see it as a rebranding of the Gnostic idea ... That was prominent towards the end of the first century...” – Tim ([72:39])
  • “We would ... make sure they clearly communicate this depravity ... is spiritual in nature...” – Jeff ([75:55])

• On Method and Motive:

  • “When you make public claims that we're doing this for money but you don't actually have any evidence of that, isn't that just slander?” – Jeff ([65:31])
  • “If I made statements towards that, then I apologize for that ... I'm willing to own up to it.” – Tim ([65:37])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Tim’s Testimony & Recovery Ministry: [06:08]–[09:02]
• Evangelism Encounter & Railroading Accusation: [10:55]–[13:44]
• Unpacking LDS Polytheism/Heavenly Council: [14:11]–[19:14]
• King Follett Discourse—God Was Once a Man: [19:35]–[24:06], [42:03]–[46:08]
• Michael Heiser/Divine Council Debate: [24:06]–[41:47]
• Isaiah 44:6 & The One God Texts: [29:24], [32:10], [37:11]
• Modalism Misunderstanding: [30:03]–[31:22]
• Charges of Slander/Financial Motive: [64:17]–[67:20]
• Calvinism/Journey and Doctrines of Grace: [69:09]–[91:09]
• Addiction, Depravity, and John 6:44: [75:32], [80:40]
• Mutual Respect & Planning Future Dialogue: [91:09]–end

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Tone & Language

• Tone: Direct, occasionally tense but largely respectful, earnest, sometimes playful (Christmas references, mutual congratulation), ultimately conciliatory.
• Language: Theological, at times technical, but frequently explained in personal terms (testimony, addiction, practical ministry).
• Notable: Tim is forthright about past mistakes and open to correction, and Jeff repeatedly clarifies and provides context for key doctrinal differences.

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Memorable Moments

• Unexpected Agreement on Recovery Ministry: Both men’s extensive experience with addiction and recovery shapes their empathetic approach. ([06:08]–[09:03])
• Heated “Heiser” Debate: Both sides cite Michael Heiser but diverge sharply on what his scholarship means in the LDS/Christian context. ([24:06]–[41:47])
• Honest Apology: Tim sincerely apologizes for previously assigning financial motives to Apologia. ([65:37])
• Friendly Conclusion: Plans for future dialogue; mutual affirmation and blessings for Christmas.

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For Listeners:

If you missed the episode, this wide-ranging discussion provides deep insight into the real—often difficult—differences between Christianity and Mormonism on the nature of God, highlights the importance of careful theological dialogue, and demonstrates that gracious conversation is possible even amid sharp disagreement.

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Best Quote for the Episode:

“My motivation here ... is I love the Mormon people. ... I fell in love with your people in your community. So I love the Mormon people.”
— Jeff Durbin ([66:25])

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Non Rockabotus Must stop.

[A]

I don't want to rock the boat.

[B]

I want to sink it.

Are you gonna bark all day, little.

[A]

Doggy, or are you gonna bite?

Delusional. Yeah, delusional is okay in your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me Del using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt.

[B]

What? Desperate times call for faithful men and.

[A]

Not for careful men.

[B]

The careful men come later and write.

[A]

The biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.

[C]

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make corrosives.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Don't go in the world. Make homies.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Disciples.

[A]

I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

That's a joke, Pastor. When we have the real message of.

[B]

Truth, we cannot let somebody say they're.

[A]

Speaking truth when they're not.

Take an amazing journey to a place.

[B]

That will blow your mind and move your mind so you will never be the same again.

[A]

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts. I am the first and I am the last. Besides me, there is no God. That's Isaiah 44, 6. Everybody. Welcome everybody, to Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world. I'm Jeff, the common ninja. That's Luke, the Bear over there.

[B]

What up?

[C]

Merry Christmas.

[A]

Merry Christmas, Bedford Falls.

We're back. Aren't we having some sort of anniversary right now?

[C]

Oh, I guess. Oh, that is this week, isn't it?

[A]

What's, what's the anniversary?

[C]

Is it 12 years?

[A]

I don't know. It's something. So we're having some, some annual anniversary. Apology radio. I think it's maybe 12, 13. No, it's maybe more than that. I don't know. It's like we should know this, but definitely more. It's definitely more than 12, for sure.

[C]

Isaac chime in.

[A]

Happy, happy anniversary. Apology radio.

[C]

Whatever, whatever this is tomorrow, I remember was December 1st.

[A]

That's right. So Merry Christmas, everybody. All right, so welcome, everybody. You can see we even have the set design and everything right now for Christmas time. We' big Christmas fanatics here at Apologia Radio. So we're glad you guys joined us. Very important show today. Hopefully a very fruitful conversation we have for you guys today. Before we start, we're going to go and point everyone to Apologia Studios dot com. If you go to Apologia studios dot com you get all the past episodes of Apologia Radio. Shans cultish and provoked all of them there. Also, you can sign up for all Access when you partner with us in this ministry and make all the ministry that we do possible. And you're part of this ministry with us. And so whether it's to the Jehovah's Witnesses, to our Latter Day Saints friends, atheists, agnostics, Roman Catholics, the whole thing, we want to bring the gospel to all those communities. And so all of that is there. And so I want to thank everybody who's a part of this ministry with us making all that possible. And so I guess let's just dive right in today, right?

[C]

I think so. There's 13, by the way.

[A]

Is it? I thought it was. It's 13 felt better to me. So 13 years. Happy birthday. Apology or radio and Jesus. That's right. That's right. And. And Christmas time and Jesus. Thank you very much. All right, so last night. Well, actually, I think it was yesterday. Yesterday or the day we dropped a video of some of our evangelism outreach at the Mormon temple here in Mesa. Been doing that since I was 18 years old out there with a backpack full of tracks and a Bible and a Johnny Mac. I actually didn't have a Johnny Mac back then. And so everybody knows, we, we started being able to film some of those conversations to hopefully benefit. Benefit the Latter Day Saints community and of Course Christians. And so we put the video up just the other day. One of them is a clip of a lady that walked up and started to engage with me. And we had a quick conversation. I think it was about six or seven minutes long. So there was a Latter Day Saints podcast that last night did a program, and the title of it was Is this Evangelism or Interrogation? A response to Apologia Studios. It was on Christ Pearls. And there were four hosts of the program last night, and one of those hosts was gracious enough to join us today on the show to discuss the program last night and even Calvinism. And so his name is Timothy Berman. Timothy, welcome to the show.

[B]

Oh, hello.

[A]

Welcome.

[B]

Yeah, there we go.

[A]

There you go. I can hear you now.

[B]

Hello. Thanks for having me.

[A]

So we're grateful to have you, man. It's short notice, too. So we do appreciate you making time in your schedule and accommodating that. Now, do you like Tim or Timothy? What should I want to show respect to you?

[B]

Tim's fine.

[A]

Tim. Okay, Tim. And I love your look, my friend. That beard is. That beard is fantastic. I do love the look. Well, it just real. I want to make sure everyone that I get a chance to know you and also our listeners. Tim, tell us a bit about yourself before we start the conversation.

[B]

Well, I grew up in the church. I did leave the church for about 15 years, did.

Study and looked into and adopted and aligned with Reformed theology and Calvinism, and attended Calvary Chapel Seminaries of God, and then slowly made my way back to the church.

Through various means and mechanisms. And I've been. Been here. I'm part of the Celebrate Recovery community. So I'm actively involved in the Celebrate Recovery here in my local area at a couple different churches that we attend. I also am in ministry with a hospitality house where we provide recovery and housing for men who are in need of that. My area is actually addiction and recovery. And so that's my biggest area. I do a separate YouTube channel, Sacred Sobriety Path for the Soul, where it's just basically going through scripture, going through the. The understanding of what recovery is from a Christian worldview and how to basically empower and. And strengthen and encourage people to thrive in recovery. Not to cope with life on life's terms, but to thrive and know that you can overcome through Christ and the Atonement. And so. And on top of that, I do creative writing. So I have. I have my creative writing aspect there. So why interesting.

[A]

You and I. You and I would have some great conversations. I'm not sure. If you're aware. But apology at church came out of a drug and alcohol rehab facility, a hospital where I was a chaplain for many years and so I did not know that.

[B]

That's good to know.

[A]

Yeah, I was a chaplain over. It's the oldest drug rehab and hospital in. In Phoenix and they have a Christian track. And I was the chaplain there for four and a half years, something like that. And so that's where our church came from was all the people coming to Christ out of the. Out of drug and alcohol addiction needed. Needed a shepherd to care for them full time. And so that's where the church came from. So we can have some, some great conversations.

Yeah. So we ever. Everybody was an apology initially was in AA groups and recovery and halfway houses and all that stuff. And so.

[B]

Oh yeah, I've done a n A My, my 21 years. Over 21 years from alcohol. Well, congratulations over cigarette smoking and yeah. 11 years thriving from overcoming codependency and toxic relationships and.

[A]

Interesting. Interesting. Well, we could have some good conversations on that.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

Well, I'm. I'm super grateful that you joined us again, especially on such short notice. And so there was so much in this show I didn't even get a chance to listen to. Obviously it was last night. I listened to just some significant portions of it, but I figured we could jump right in. I mean, the audience knows you. You're a Latter Day Saint, so you were born and raised, but then you left the Latter Day Saints and you said you adopted Reformed theology and you were in a Calvary Chapel.

[B]

Calvary Chapel, symbols of God, non denominational, various churches, apostolic churches over the years.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And then at one point I basically.

Just decided to live life on. On my own terms. And I call it my roaring 30s karaoke star for eight years and, and chasing the girlies in my younger days. So. Yeah, and then why stop?

[A]

I understand that. All right, and so let's get into it. So there is. We'll just play at least a portion of some of your engagement here. You guys interacted a bit with the video and so this is about 25 minutes in. I guess we'll just start to play through it and we'll just kind of have a conversation together and then. And then hopefully we'll get a chance to get into the Calvinism discussion because at the. I think it was at the end. And you have to forgive me, Tim, I couldn't find the portion. Mike somewhere said the one thing that they won't discuss or defend is Tulip. And you are an ex Calvinist. And so I've actually taught a number of series on Tulip. So I thought, well, that might be a healthy conversation. A Latter Day Saint, ex Calvinist talking about Tulip. That'd be kind of fun. I don't think I've ever heard of something like that. This would be like the first in history, maybe, Tim. Well, I mean, I've never even seen a podcast or program talk like that. I mean, in terms of like, you know, ex Calvinist, now Latter Day Saint talking about this, that would be interesting. All right, so this is from about.

25 minutes in. And if, if you feel like you want me to stop at any point, Tim, just tell me. Stop and I'll, I'll stop the video. All right, here, here we go. Jesus, there's only one true and living God. Only one God. And then you don't believe that though.

[B]

Heavenly Father, our God is one.

[A]

But don't you believe that you're going to become a God one day?

[B]

She.

[A]

Okay, now mind you, I hate pausing. She answered his question.

[B]

Yeah, she did.

[A]

So. So now he's going to force a.

[B]

Different belief upon her because she answered his question. This is the technical gifting and railroading.

[A]

Yeah, we're going to become similar. So I guess start there. I think my point, and you've seen the video, obviously this is a short one, right? My point there, Tim, was to talk about what the Mormon Church officially believes about God, the nature of God, God becoming God, God not having been God for all eternity. And that was the point. And so you called it railroading. Maybe you can describe what you mean by that.

[B]

Well, I mean, you know, doing apologetics for over 30 years.

And I've done it too myself, and I know a lot of people do it too. And I've been kind of being a bit more mindful about how I approach things and, and approach discussions. And a lot of times what I, what I see happening is Latter Day Saints, when they get into conversations, a lot of times they're railroaded into the conversations with a bunch of rapid fire.

Things where they don't have time to answer because they're being overwhelmed and kind of like they're being cornered. I know I've been cornered even on social media where, where you get the pack mentality of people jumping in and, and.

The best thing you could do is just say, okay, you know, fine, I'll just go ahead and leave the conversation or I'll just go ahead and walk away. Because to have a healthy conversation for me is to basically Be open and receptive, that you don't have to come into agreement. You have to just be open and receptive and hear each other out and, and how they arrive to, to that point of conclusion, to their, to their point and perspective. And, and that's where we learn, that's where we grow. And so when, when I was mentioning the railroad that's watching the whole six minutes and.

Few seconds of that, that, that's what I was perceiving was what was happening to her, that she, she was. That there was this observable behavior of, of kind of trying to catch her and not giving her time to respond and then just overwhelming her. And we see that when she walked away.

Which we addressed at the end, towards the end of it.

[A]

Sure. Well, I definitely would encourage everybody to go and watch the video. It's an apology of studios somewhere underneath this video. After the show, the program today, you can watch the six minutes for yourself. So I think the main point, Tim, was I was obviously, we're on the street, she's going to look at the lights. And she approached me and started the conversation. And so when I said to her, you don't believe that there's ultimately only one God now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Would you dis. Would you disagree with that statement? As, as a latter day Saint, would you say that you believe there is only one true God?

[B]

Well, I would say that there is one true God in the reality that we know and understand who God is. He is our heavenly Father.

[A]

No, no, but what does that, what does that mean though, Tim? I mean, the question is, is whether there's more than one God. You do believe that there's not only one God.

[B]

Okay, well, let me ask you a question. Sure. Because if you're going to go down that route, do you believe that Satan is God of this world?

[A]

As, as a, as a false God? For sure.

[B]

Whether he's true or false, you believe that he is a God. He is the God of this world.

[A]

No, that's a statement. That's a statement scripture makes about identifying Satan and what he's doing in this world right now. But we don't believe that Satan's an actual God. Scripture's not calling him an actual God.

[B]

Yeah, but it says that he is the God of this world. So they are calling him God because.

[A]

The world, the world and fallenness. The world worships Satan, the world follows Satan, but he's not actually a God.

[B]

Well, I agree with that, but my point is, is that you can either take scripture literally or understand the nuance of Scripture. So I do agree that he's not God, but scripture does refer to him as God of this world. So we have to be careful in how we define that because we get tripped up with that. So is there one true God? Yes, there is God the Father. We also know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We know that he is God as far as being participating in the relational aspect of the Godhead.

[A]

Is he God?

[B]

Is Jesus God? In a sense, yes. He has all attributes and authority and glory as the Father has.

[A]

So that's two gods. Is the Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit God?

[B]

That's not two gods.

[A]

Well, you said that the Father is. Is God and he's a separate and distinct being in person than Jesus. You're saying that Jesus.

[B]

No, you're putting words in my mouth because I haven't said that.

[A]

You believe that Jesus and the Father are the same being or different beings.

[B]

No, they're, they're. They are the. They are two separate individuals. Two separate beings.

[A]

That's what I just said. Okay, so you agree with that. Okay, so I agree with that. They're two separate beings and you believe they're two separate gods.

By nature?

[B]

By. Well, no, they are not two separate gods. They are one.

[A]

I thought last night your contention on the program last night was you thought that I didn't understand that Joseph Smith early on in Mormon history, in the Book of Mormon, called Jesus the eternal God. I realized that he is.

[B]

He is the eternal God in the sense that he is over all of cree. He, through the Father, by the authority of the Father, he created all things.

[A]

So he is the eternal God.

[B]

Still subordinate. He is still subordinate to the Father. He is still subordinate to the Father.

[A]

No, I understand you believe that, Tim, for sure.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But it seems like right now you're going in a different direction. You guys were going last night where you talked about. I don't seem to understand that Joseph Smith early on was calling Jesus the eternal God. I do understand that, but I would make the argument that Joseph Smith went through an evolution in his theology before his murder in Carthage. And so I understand early on he was calling Jesus the eternal God and making statements like that. You were chastising me last night in the program for not seeming to understand that Mormonism teaches that Jesus is the eternal God. I think there's problems comes with that. But I guess will you say it as strongly as you said it last night, that Jesus is the eternal God?

[B]

In a sense, he is the eternal God. He is. However, he is still under the Subordinational will of the Father.

[A]

Now, I understand that, but you have now the Father. Elohim is God. Jesus is God. And do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?

[B]

In a capacity, yes. The Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son.

[A]

But you do believe he's God?

[B]

In a sense, yes. He's part of the Godhead.

[A]

Okay, so would you agree with Joseph Smith's statement where he says that these three constitute three distinct personages and three gods?

[B]

In that sense, yes.

[A]

Okay, so we have. Now we were talking about whether there's one God, but Joseph said, and you said you agree with them that these three constitute three distinct personages and three gods. So we have three gods over this earth. But you also believe that Elohim had a God before him. Correct?

[B]

We don't know.

[A]

You don't know that.

[B]

That's speculation. There have been some. Some early leaders of the church who have speculated that. We just don't know. All we know is what Scripture teaches, what has come down through the annals of human history with regard to understanding who God is and his nature and his being.

[A]

May I read you a quote, Tim, just to have you interact with it and just hear your perspective on this. This is from the King Follet discourse. Obviously aware of that. He's Joseph Smith, your prophet. Modern revelation says God himself was once as we are now, and it is exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. He says.

We'Ve imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and will take away and do away the veil so that you may see. He says he was once a man like us. Yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did. So if he was a man like us, how did he get there? Did he have parents?

[B]

Again, that's speculation. We don't really know. There's not enough revelation to understand or know what that all entailed. Because when Joseph Smith gave that there's different from what I understand and researched. There are. There's not just one single King fallen discourse. They have different variants from people who have written down some of the things that Joseph Smith did say. However, from what I have studied and researched, and I go to John chapter 5, beginning at verse 19, there is what is known as the Eternal Now. I don't know if you're familiar with the Eternal now principle.

[A]

I've heard the discussions on it, yes.

[B]

Okay. So that's Where I come from I have this idea that.

God our Heavenly Father is not bound by time, space or you know, everything is not as linear as we would would think. You know, we, we know that there's a past, there's a present and there's a future. But everything exists, past, present, future exists in one continuum. It's called the eternal now principle. That, and that's why we know that God can be omniscient and know all things. And that, that because he knows from when he created it what's going to happen towards the end and the coming of Christ and in the second coming. And so the eternal now principle, where In John chapter 5 Jesus says that he does nothing except what he sees the Father do. And that's present tense. So what is it that Jesus is seeing the Father do, that he is doing? And the context, when you look at that, the context is about having the power and authority to raise the dead. The two resurrections, resurrection of the righteous, the resurrection of the unrighteous and the unjust. With that and that he will declare victory over the grave. And so couple that with the understanding that the gospel itself.

Existed long before the creation of the world. And that's put in into that perspective. And so if you go to pishikum54a it talks about this, the phenomenon that was created or thought to have been created, one of those being the throne of glory, the other one being toward the law, the temple, the tabernacle repends, Yahenna and the name of the Messiah all came into existence prior to the creation of heaven and earth. That's also in the bear sheet Rabba.

With, with that. And so you have the Jewish Talmudic studies that talk about everything having a pre existence and coming into that. So there is an eternal plan that exists.

[A]

Yeah, the plan though is one thing. We're talking about God his nature, his existence. And Joseph said it's not the only place he said it, I'm sure you're aware of that Tim, where he talks about the plurality of gods, God himself as one. So as we are now. And he says you've got to learn to do as as all gods have done before you and, and becoming like becoming a God yourself. And you have statements from Joseph Smith saying in the beginning the head of the gods called a council of the gods and they came together and concocted and repaired a plan to create the world and the people. It Joseph Smith says in History of the Church, Volume 6, page 474 he says I will preach on the plurality of gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the deity, it has been on the plurality of gods. And so Joseph Smith denies the concept that there is only one true and living God. There is a plurality of gods in Joseph Smith's theology, which is what I was addressing with the young lady.

[B]

Okay, well, well, I definitely appreciate the clarification there because sometimes you don't get the full context of that, even if it's a six minute.

One thing I want to point out though too is that prior to Second Temple Israel, the Israelite religious belief system, from biblical scholarship, you have the late Dr. Michael Heiser, you have Mark Smith, you have Margaret Barker and other people who have done a lot of study with the Ugaritic text and that do hold to the reality that there is a divine council. In fact, you look at the Dead Sea Scrolls, you look at the Septuagint, and there is a mention of the sons of God being part of a pantheon, part of a divine council.

[A]

Well, let's start there. Let's make sure we engage with that. So I know Heiser, obviously he's, he's with the Lord now, but when you just, when you just try to, to take Heiser's view and to compare it to what Joseph was saying in terms of a plurality of gods, a council of gods. Did Heiser believe when he talked about Elohim, the heavenly council, that those were actually God by nature?

Yeah, Noiser. I'm absolutely, absolutely confident. I know, I know Heiser, I know his work. I can, we've done programs on this. Heiser did not believe. He would, he would, he would slap you on the wrist for claiming that he was saying that there's anything comparable to what he was saying about the heavenly council. He's talking about heavenly beings in terms of angelic creatures. And so when he says Elohim, Yes, Heiser made it very, very clear. Here's what I encourage you to do. Go look up Heiser's videos on the Trinity. I can send you some resources yourself. I will tell you this, that if you're trying to compare Heiser's perspective on Elohim and heavenly beings with what Joseph says, you are, are misrepresenting him. So, okay, it might come back from the dead.

[B]

Let me, let me, let me, let me, let me make a clarification point here. The gods of the Bible part one and the gods of the Bible part two. Heiser clearly states that There is a divine council of Ben Elohim.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Or a divine council.

[A]

Yep. Yeah, he does.

[B]

There's also. There's also a video that.

[A]

Does he mean by that? Real fast, let's move. Stay up, make sure we're staying on track.

[B]

Hang on, hang on. On. Don't interrupt me.

[A]

Okay. All right, I'll let you finish that, but let's not forget that point.

[B]

Right. However, there's also another video where he talks about Jesus being the destroyer of gods. And he uses John, chapter, I can't remember off the top of my head, John chapter 10, which correlates with Psalm 82.

In there, he mentions the passage of. Of Isaiah 23 or Isaiah.

24, verse 23, where he talks about it. Not the. Not yet. The. Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, for the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and his glory will be before his elders. So who are the elders to Christ? And that's plural. That's not singular, but it's plural. And you also have the 24 elders who are sitting.

[A]

Let's. We're going to many different points here. Make sure we stay on so we can.

[B]

I'm addressing your point. I'm addressing your. Your point. I'm addressing your point.

[A]

I'm making the point. And you haven't redressed it yet. Heiser did not believe, and he would outright enraged, deny that he was in any way discussing the heavenly beings and the Elohim and the divine council, that those were by nature God. He says there is only one of those, and that is the true God, the Elohim, the divine beings, the heavenly council. We're talking about angelic creatures and things like that.

[B]

Not refer to them as angelic creatures. He refers to them as the sons of God.

[A]

Right. That's how. That's how angels are described in Scripture, as the sons of God.

[B]

And what are angels? What. What is the heavenly word for angels?

[A]

Heavenly beings.

[B]

They're messengers, right?

[A]

Messengers. That's right. Not gods. And so what we were talking about, which we've gotten off now, is that Mormonism does teach that there are. There is more than one God by nature, which is what I was addressing with the women, the woman in which you guys were ultimately in some way denying. But you. You, if you accept Joseph's revelation, Joseph believed that there were three true gods of this earth and many more gods before that. And you can become one one day, correct?

[B]

Well, that's what the Bible teaches. That's what Christ himself teaches. That's A whole other conversation we can get into.

[A]

Well that's. Well, let's get into it. Joseph Smith taught that.

[B]

Right. So do you want to get into the nature of theosis, exaltation or.

[A]

No, we're talking about God, the nature of God. Whether there's only one true and living God. And so at the beginning of the program today, I quoted one of just many biblical passages and statements from God where he says in Isaiah 44. Six, I am the first and I am the last. Besides me, there is no God.

As a Mormon, you don't agree with any of that statement, do you?

[B]

I agree with what statement?

[A]

That God says he's the first and the last and besides him there is no God.

[B]

Well, Christ referred that to himself, that he's the Alpha and the Omega.

[A]

Amen. That's where you get the Trinity from. But.

[B]

Well that's not. You don't get the Trinity from that.

[A]

Well sure, if Jesus calling himself the first and the last, and Yahweh calls himself the first and the last, there's only one first and last.

[B]

That's because Jesus is Yehovah. Yahushua.

[A]

Yes, Jesus is Yahweh. Exactly right. But, but here's.

[B]

He's not. He's not God the Father.

[A]

Amen. Amen. You don't think Christians believe Jesus is God the Father, do you?

[B]

You.

Well, I've actually met people who actually do secretly hold to a modelistic viewpoint of Trinity. A what I call it a trinitarian monolistic viewpoint.

[A]

Monolistic modal. Modal modalist. Yeah, those are. Yeah, the modalist heretics were around in the second century and, and Sam.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Overcome and defeated by the church as early as the second century.

[C]

I gotta say for some someone that Tim that claims to have been a Calvinist, you know that we would completely and vehemently deny modalism. So it's kind of shocking to be honest to hear in your video accused Jeff of preaching modalism.

[B]

Well, that's what it sound like it was coming across the words that was being used. That's what I hear. That's what I heard because I've heard other people use the same type of language and that.

With that has that modalism viewpoint and perspective.

[A]

Well, yeah.

[B]

And he, he, he exists as the Father, then manifests himself as a son because he divested himself of all glory.

[A]

And everything, which we've never taught anything of the like. So.

[B]

And, and I've met Calvinists who actually hold to that view.

[A]

You've never met a Calvinist That's a modalist. It's impossible. They don't exist.

[B]

So.

[A]

You'Ve never met a Calvinist who knows Calvinist theology, who's reformed in Orthodox that believes in modalism. That's heresy. It's one of the oldest heresies in the Christian church. But back to the point. Isaiah 44:6, God says he's the first and the last. You don't believe he's the first or the last.

[B]

I believe that Jehovah is the incomparable God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Is he the first God of Israel?

[A]

Is he the first God?

[B]

Well, you have the Father. You have the Father who's in existence.

[A]

Right? But is this the. Okay, let's just say, let's do it. Either Elohim or Jesus, whether you're talking about Elohim as in your perspective as the first and the last, or Jesus as the first and the last. Are either of them the first or the last in your perspective?

[B]

To be honest, I haven't really studied about what that whole meaning means. You know, first and last. I just know that, that Christ himself distinguishes that he's the first and last in relationship to the reality of salvation, reality of the redemption and the reality of all things that pertain to us and pertain to the creation of this world. Ultimately, He's.

[A]

I'll read that, I'll read the full text for context for you, Tim. It says this. It says I am the first and I am the last. Besides me, there is no God.

[B]

Right. And that's what Michael Heiser would say, that that's referring to the incomparability of, of Yahweh in comparison to the gods of the ancient Near Eastern world view at that time.

[A]

But he says that this won't work here, Tim. He says there is no God.

It's not just comparability. He says there is no God.

[B]

Okay, so you're disagreeing with what?

[A]

Michael Heiser would not disagree with me. I, I. Heiser. Heiser was a Trinitarian Christian who would if, if he could come back and slap your hands for you.

[B]

If you don't think that, that you disagree with Dr. Michael Heiser, let's go ahead and pull up the gods of the Bible point one and, and let's listen to what Michael Heiser actually has to say for himself with regards to the incomparability of.

God in relationship to Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44. 6. Prove me wrong by pulling up his video Gods of the Bible Part one and let's watch it and let's see if, if I am wrong, even if.

[C]

Heiser did believe what you're saying, what you're claiming, that's completely irrelevant to this conversation. You're using him as kind of like a scapegoat to.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[C]

Hold on, hold on, Tim. Michael Heiser is not an authority over us.

[B]

You're saying that we're talking about security.

[C]

What does God's word say?

[B]

No, don't talk over me. Me. You. You're challenging me, saying that I don't know Michael Heiser. So you don't. I'm putting you on the, on the, on the hot seat. Let's pull up.

[A]

Here's. Here's what make it easier here. We've done an entire program, hour and a half, longer. So I'll send you the link to it. Going through Mormon attempts to take Heiser into their pocket to use his statements. Let me finish. Let me, Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. Okay, I'm not deflecting. You've refused to respond to one text so far. So I'm not using Hyzer. You're okay, so let me just try this. Let me just try this. I will send you a link. I will send you a link to the hour and a half probably program we did where another Mormon apologist like yourself tried to use Hyzer out of context, and we actually played clips from Heiser that outright, flatly contradict what you're attempting to. To say. Heiser was actually saying.

[B]

That's why I'm asking you.

[A]

Hold on.

[B]

That's why I'm asking you.

[A]

So what, what we can't do, Tim, right, is take a video from Heiser, we don't know how long it is, and just start playing in the middle of the program right now and just watching it together, that this is a program, it's a show. We can't just start playing a random video from Heiser and just watching the entire thing. If you'd like to send me clips after the program which you think buttress the point you're making from Heiser, you can do so. But we're in the middle of a live program right now. But I'm just telling you for sure that Heizer is a trinitarian Christian. He believed that there's only one true God by nature. And when he talks about a divine council and heavenly beings, he's not talking about things that are by nature God. He outright denies that and he would contradict you. And so back to the point, though, here's the Text.

[B]

What I'm pointing out, which you seem to be missing, is that when it comes to Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6, Dr. Michael Heiser specifically and explicitly said, says that those passages refer to the incomparability of God of Israel compared to the gods of the ancient Near Easterns. And I keep referencing. You can look this up, the gods of the Bible parts one and part two. It's in part one where he makes that distinction very clear. So it's disingenuous of you.

[A]

No.

[B]

To say that I'm not that basically coming. You are.

[A]

You are misrepresenting. You are misrepresenting Heiser. You are misrepresenting Heiser. If you, if you are trying to say Michael Heiser, who was a trinitarian, biblical, orthodox Christian, was saying that there are other heavenly beings that are by nature God, like the true God, you are outright lying about the man. That is not what he taught. And when he talks about many times in scripture about the incomparability of the true and living God. God true. There are plenty of texts that completely describe that. They don't even know the future. They don't know the past and why it happened the way it did. And God has the throwdown between the true God and the idols of men so fast. Let me finish the thought.

Tim. I'll finish the thought, Tim. And the text, like Isaiah 43:10 does not work in the way that you're trying to say because it says clearly before me there was no God formed, formed, neither shall there be after me. That's just not about. That's not simply about incomparability. God is saying there were no gods formed before him and no God formed after him. You don't believe either of those things.

[B]

So you're presuming what you think I know and understand and believe.

[A]

Do you believe you're going to become a God one day?

[B]

That's what Christ himself taught.

[A]

Well, we'll address that. But Joseph Smith taught you that you've got to learn to become God yourselves, the same way all gods have done before you. So Joseph's theology was that there were gods before the God of this earth and that you can become one one day. Isaiah 43:10, God clearly says before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. What's your response to God?

[B]

What is my response to God when.

[A]

He says that there were no gods formed before him, him and no gods formed after him? You disagree with both those statements.

[B]

Yeah, because they are talking about when you look at the context of the passage, they're talking about the incomparability of who Yahweh is compared to the gods of the.

[A]

Amen. Amen. And when God says there's no comparison, he says, because there were no gods formed before me and none after me.

And you disagree with both those statements as a Latter Day Saint.

[B]

So.

Here is what I have from my notes.

He talks about the existence of other gods in part one, where he does.

[A]

Reference back to Heiser. I thought we're in the text here. Let's stay. We've dealt with Heiser. We're going to send you some resources on that. We're in Isaiah 4310. God says, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. You disagree with both those statements from the mouth of God.

[B]

It's a Hebrew idiom that is being pointed out there.

[A]

So. And what. How do you know that's. How do you know it's. How do you know it's an idiom? That's just a claim when God is.

[B]

That's what. Okay, so that's the claim Dr. Michael Heiser makes.

That is his very claim that he makes.

[A]

Do you think that Michael Heiser, the trinitarian Christian who believes there is only one true and living eternal God, is simply dismissing the statement of God here, where Heiser gets his trinitarianism from. He's dismissing it, saying it's just an idiom, it's meaningless. Heiser believed there's only one eternal God, none before him and none after him. And Heiser would go to a passage just like this to demonstrate that.

[B]

That.

[A]

So what is your. And if Heiser were alive today, he'd sit here in the chair next to me, look you in the eye from across the Internet, and he would challenge you. You respond to God where he's the only true and living God, the eternal God. He says, there's none before him, none after him.

Let's do this. Let's.

[B]

Let. Let me. Let me actually quote from the very transcript, if you don't mind.

[A]

Are we doing Heiser again?

[C]

Heiser is not an authority over us. We're.

[B]

We're.

[C]

Our authority here is God's word we're dealing with.

[A]

You're making a claim, right, that you're misrepresenting.

[B]

Challenging that claim.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You're saying I'm misrepresenting.

[C]

I don't care what Heiser said. It doesn't. It's irrelevant to the conversation.

[B]

Well, then I don't care what you have to say about what I believe.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's irreverent what you say. You want to get into a pissing match, we'll get into a pissing match.

[A]

Okay, Tim, bring it down. Bring it down, my friend. All right, so the point is here is we're dealing with the text. I. I can demonstrate to you that you're misrepresenting Heiser. Heiser is a. Was a staunch.

[B]

That's what I'm asking you to do by going to.

[A]

Are you denying. Here's. Here's what'll settle it. Okay. Are you denying that Heiser was a staunch Trinitarian Christian? Are you denying.

[B]

I'm not denying that.

[A]

Thank you. And he would refute everything you're saying right now.

[B]

All right?

[A]

Because Trinity. What does trinitarianism start with? With the belief in monotheism, that there's only one true and living God.

[B]

Here's the issue that I'm having with this. Sure you don't want me to quote Heiser? Because it's going to prove that you're.

[A]

No, I don't want you to quote Heiser out of context, for sure.

[B]

I'm not quoting him out of context.

[A]

If you're trying to say that Heiser believed that there are other true gods by nature, then you are lying.

Well, then that's what I was talking about. So we can move on to the video now. Let's go back to the video.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Well, Joseph Smith, he said, have you ever heard of the King Fallett discourse? It's his most famous sermon. Have you ever heard of that?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. So he said, I'm going to tell you how God came to be God. We've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. He says, I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see. He says, you've got to learn to become gods yourselves, the same way all gods have done before you?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you do believe that God had a God before him, who had a God before him, who had a God before him, and that you'll become one Witness day.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so Scripture says about that. Isaiah 43:10. Go read that later. It's in here, too, by the way.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It says, God says, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. So here's God saying, no gods formed before me, no gods formed after me. Now, God said that long before Joseph Smith came along and said that God spoke to him. And scripture says that you have to test the words of the prophets by God's own word.

[B]

Word.

[A]

And so when Joseph came along in the 19th century and said, nope, you're wrong about that. God hasn't been God from all eternity, but God says in his Word before, from all eternity into all eternity, he's God.

Yeah, let's pause it because.

[B]

Jeff. Jeff, you sure about that? Because he tried to answer. Or she tried answering it already. You sure about that? Okay, here's the title page of the.

[A]

Book of Mormon twin, which is to.

[B]

Show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things Lord hath done for their fathers and that they may know the covenants of the Lord.

[A]

That they are not cast off forever.

[B]

And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile, wait for it.

That Jesus is the Christ, the eternal.

[A]

God, manifesting himself unto all nations.

[B]

Amen. Amen.

[A]

He knows that. He knows that, which is the problem.

[B]

He's had that read to him I don't know how many times.

[A]

I'm sure.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yes, Durbin does know that. And Durbin also knows the evolution that Joseph Smith's theology went through from the beginning and where it ended up. In 1844, Joseph said this. We've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and will take away and do away the veil so that you may see. And so, Tim, I'm fully aware what the Book of Mormon says. There are statements of monotheism in the Book of Mormon. There's contradictions within the Book of Mormon on the Godhead head. And then Joseph Smith's evolving theology where he later says that I'll refute the idea that God has been God for all eternity. So the question is, Tim, how is Jesus the eternal God when God says that God came to be God?

[B]

So let me make sure I understand it. So if you can ask the question again.

[A]

Sure. So Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon originally says that Jesus is the eternal God, but then later he says in 1844, we've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and will take away and do away the veil so that you may see.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So how is Jesus the eternal God? When Joseph Smith says that God came to be God and he refutes the idea that there's an eternal God.

[B]

So if I understand what you're asking, the position is that how can we as Latter Day Saints, or how can I as Latter Day Saints, because I can only speak to my own own understanding and not what everybody else may or may not believe. How can God be From everlasting to everlasting and yet not have a time period where he is not God and attained God. Is that what you're asking? Is that the point you're attempting to make?

[A]

The point I'm making is I understand that the Book of Mormon makes statement that contradict other statements from Joseph Smith and other prophets and apostles, like calling Jesus the eternal God. When Joseph Smith says we've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea. So how is Jesus the eternal God when Joseph Smith is refuting the idea?

[B]

Well, I don't think Joseph Smith is refuting the idea that Jesus is the eternal God.

[A]

Okay, I'll read it again. It is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God and how. How he came to be. So for I'm going to tell you how God came to be God we've imagined.

[B]

Speaking about who the Father is.

[A]

Right. And Jesus comes after the Father as the next God. I'm going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and I will take away and do away the veil so that you may see. He says, you got to learn to become God yourselves, the same way all gods have done before you. So you have Joseph Smith early on in Mormon history saying that Jesus is the eternal God and it makes sense. Sense, Tim, why he would do that. He's in New England. He's surrounded by monotheistic Christianity. He can't come up with a revelation that denies monotheism. Early on you see statements of monotheism and Mormonism, but then it evolves into polytheism. And so you have clearly Joseph Smith later on denying the idea that God has been God for all eternity. So how do we have Jesus as God from all eternity when Joseph Smith's denying it?

[B]

Well, here's something that I want to point out that sure is probably going to give you some perspective of where I'm coming from. Okay, so this is the Pisacom 54A. And it says the Gamera answers, this is not difficult. This Barerada is referring to our fire, and that Barretta is referring to the fire of Gihenna. The Gemera explains, our fire was created at the conclusion of Shabbat. Shabbat, but the fire of Gehenna was created on Shabbat Eve. The Gemera proceeds to ask, was the fire of Gehenna created on Shabbat Eve? Wasn't it taught in a Beretta? Seven phenomena were created before the world was created. And they are Torah, repentance and the Garden of Eden and Gehenna and the throne of glory and the Temple and the name of the Messiah. The Gemera provides sources for the notion that each of these phenomena was created before the world was. Torah was created before the world was. Was created as it is written. The Lord made me as the beginning of his way. The first of his works of Old Proverbs 8, 22, which, based on subsequent verses, is referring to the Torah. Repentance was created before the world was created, as it is written, before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world. Even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God, and in and it is written, immediately afterward you return man to contrition. You say, repent, children of man. Psalms 90, verse 22 through 3. The garden of Eden was created before the world was created as it is written. And God planted the garden of Eden in the East. Makedom. Genesis 2. 8. The term in the east me is interpreted in the sense of before Mekotem, I. E. Before the world was created. Gehenna was created before the world was created as it is written. For its hearth is ordained of old. Isaiah 30, 33. The hearth that is Gehenna was created before the world was created. The throne of glory and the temple were created before the world was created, as it is written written your throne of glory on high from the beginning in the place of our sanctuary. Jeremiah 17:12. The name of the Messiah was created before the world was created as it is written. In the chapter discussing the Messiah. May his name endure forever. His name existed before the sun. Psalm 72:17. The name of the Messiah already existed before the creation of the sun.

[A]

Okay, Tim, I get the point, but make. What's the point you're making off.

[B]

So the point. Yeah, that I'm making is based off of this. The throne of glory.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

That what is the throne of glory? No, no, what you just read from the Peshikam 54a. It's the Jewish Talmudic authoritative commentary on the same.

[A]

The same Talmud that says that Jesus is burning an excrement in hell right now.

[B]

I don't know if that's what is in there, but.

[A]

Okay, okay, but go ahead. So, Talmud.

[B]

All right, so the throne of glory was created. Created. So what does it mean for the throne of glory to be created? Whose throne of glory was created?

[A]

I. I'm not familiar with the quotation from the Talmud that you're. You're Quoting from. So I couldn't speak to it in an intelligent kind of way. So, I mean, I want to hear your point, Tim, on these, on these quotations.

[B]

Well, okay, so in Matthew 20.

When you look at Matthew 20, you have the mother of Zebed, the two sons of Zebedee come to him, and she asked him to grant permission for either. For both of her sons, one to sit on his left, one to sit on his right. Correct. And he then turns to them and speaks to him. King James Version only has this. All the other translations don't have this. But he. But in the King James Version, he. And I'm paraphrasing here because he. He then questions them. Are you willing to drink from the cup that I'm to drawn, Drink that I'll be drinking from? And are you willing to be baptized in the manner that I'm. I'm being baptized? And then his. And then he answers that question. And then he goes on and says, it's not for me to give unto those, but my Father who is in heaven, prepares a place for those who will inherit those. Now, prior to that, if you jump back over to Matthew 19, after he gets done with the conversation with the rich young ruler, he then turns to the disciples and Peter, I love Peter. Peter. You know, I, I think sometimes I identify with Peter because he asked questions. And he then says.

What is there for us since we've given up everything? Because he's talking about, you have to give up everything to follow after Christ. And Christ responds and answers and says, says that in the times of refreshing, you will sit with me on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel. And so this is the not yet. This is the something that will happen after this life, after everything is said and done, that they will sit in judgment with the Savior on thrones.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And glory to judge Israel.

[A]

Tim, let me just remind you, what we were talking about was that the Book of Mormon refers to Jesus as the eternal God, right? And Joseph Smith says, I'm going to tell you how God came to be God. We've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea. What idea? That God has been God eternally. And so what I'm showing you, there is a contradiction between early Mormon theology and what evolved later in Joseph's theology where he denies the idea that God has been God from all eternity, whether the Father or the Son.

[B]

Where did he deny that?

Where did he deny what he said earlier?

[A]

I'll read it to you again. The King fallout Discourse. It is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God and how, how he came to be. So he says, I'm going to tell you how God came to be God. We've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away and do away the veil so that you may see he's denying the idea that God has been God from all eternity. And you guys were mocking last night the idea of what I was saying because you said he obviously knows that the Book of Mormon says that Jesus is the eternal God. I do know the Book of Mormon says that, but I also know what else Mormonism says and what Joseph taught and all the other Mormon prophets and apostles, they deny so much.

[B]

Again, that goes back to what I said.

What he taught in the funerary context of the King Fallout discourse. Depending on which version of that that is being read through, I think most people tend to read through the most common one. That's predominantly of that. And having studied that portion of the King Fallet discourse, the idea of everlasting to everlasting means that there is that. If you look at the term everlasting and everlasting in the Hebrew, and if I remember correctly, that doesn't mean without beginning and without end. It just means an ongoing existence that is.

Of ancient origin and continues forever ago.

[A]

Yeah.

It means eternal or everlasting, never ending either. Directions. So Psalm 92, that says from eternity into eternity you are God is another of many statements in scripture that would deny outright what Joseph Smith taught here. And it's not the only place that Joseph Smith taught this or Mormon prophets and apostles have taught this. My point was, as you guys were chastising at that point, I'm clearly familiar with what the Book of Mormon says about Jesus and the statements in the Book of Mormon that are clearly monotheistic. But then Joseph Smith's theology evolves. And I think most Mormon scholars would even acknowledge that, that Joseph Smith's theology, it. It did.

[B]

Well, I'm not going to say it didn't evolve, because I think most people, you know, I mean, most people, when they come into faith, their understanding does evolve as they engage and read and study the Scriptures.

[A]

But he's a prophet.

[B]

Well, yeah, he, he is a prophet, but also he speaks for God. You have to also understand this is why I love the principle of learning line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a lot little. Because, you know, I mean, not everything was given to him in one moment, one Sitting. He had to learn, he had to understand, he had to wrestle with it. And he went to the Lord with questions. And, Tim, I don't have a problem.

[A]

With that line upon line, precept upon precept. I don't even have a problem with doctrinal development like, for example, the Christian church over 2000 years sharpening up doctrines that are in Scripture in terms of the Bible teaches this. How do we articulate this better? The difference there, the distinction, though, between that and what Joseph Smith experienced is that Joseph Smith said early on that God spoke to him, that he was speaking for God. And you have statements about God from Joseph early on that are clearly monotheistic. And again, he was in a monotheistic area. Christianity was in the atmosphere, specifically trinitarianism. And so to produce a work, and this is just obviously, Tim, what I'm saying, my claim to you, to produce a work that was not monotheistic and expect people to think that the God of the Bible talked to him would have been impossible in New England. But as time evolves, you see, Joseph Smith's theology evolved into what is clearly polytheism. But here's the point. Let's do this. We'll take a quick break here. I'll give you a chance to get a drink or do whatever. Okay, Tim, we'll take a quick break because I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to overwhelm your time here. You've been so gracious to us. We'll take a quick break, come back, and I just want to just address two more points with you that I think will actually be an enjoyable conversation with us. So here we go. Gabe, real fast. How long is this break? So, Tim, no nose.

A minute and forty seconds, Tim. So if you need to make a run for a drink or something, just let me know. Minute. 40 seconds. Guys, stay with us. We'll be right back. This episode's brought to you by Ion layer@ion layer.com Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits, and longevity benefits of NAD treatments. NAD is nicknamed the Fountain of Youth for a reason. You have an abundance of this in your system when you're young.

[B]

Young.

[A]

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[B]

I, I am, I, I know that you do a lot of.

[C]

A lot.

[B]

Of content with regards because I've seen some of the things that you with regards to abortion.

And.

However it does seem that we are the target of many of your messages and many of your content, but I have seen some of your other contents with regards to abortion. And, and that, that's just preaching to the choir, so to speak, where we are in agreement that that's. I, I personally believe that it's just a form of genocide. And to be honest, I'm glad we're on there.

[A]

We're on the same page there, Tim. And if we. Where do you live in Washington, right? You live Washington.

[B]

I'm up in Snohomish County. I'm north of Seattle.

[A]

Okay. So if we get a bill about, if we get a bill of the abolition of abortion in Washington, I hope you, you back it up and you give a thumbs up and support it in Washington because that's what we're.

[B]

Oh, I get a lot of flack from people when I, when I get into that arena of conversation.

[A]

Yeah, well, good. Keep getting the flack and keep, keep arguing against it. Well, I guess I just wanted to address it because, because actually there was, you know, some theological engagement, but a lot of it, Tim, was just so much in terms of motives and you're in it for the money. And I guess my question is, is in terms of, of making an argument, providing evidence. What evidence do you or Jessica have on my motives or our motives that were in this for the money? What, what evidence, what witness do you have in terms of our motives to make those public claims? Because you made them repeatedly.

[B]

Well, from. And I can only speak for myself. I, I can't speak for Jessica, but I'll speak for myself. You know, when, when I look at and, and studied, because I grew up old school.

When apologetics was kind of a new field for both Christians and Latter Day Saints. Mainly for Latter Day Saints, prior to the Internet, you had the counter cult ministries that started rising up within the late 70s, gaining a foothold and progressing and increasing within the 80s.

And well into the 90s. And then it just seemed to kind of taper off. And then right about.

When the Internet, it started kind of getting a, another increase in there. A lot of times when I see this, and I know I've talked to a lot of other people who see this, is that.

People use it as a way to unfortunately make money, preach the gospel and make money. And, and I know that a lot of pastors, a lot of ministers, they're not in it for the money. I've talked with many of them over the years and I know a lot of people who are in ministry.

Do have tithing. They believe in the principle of tithing. They believe in the principle of giving. In fact, one of the people that I've come across this last year and love his teachings is Kelly K. And his ministries. I don't know if you've guys checked him out. He does a lot of live streams.

[A]

I haven't heard of him. No.

[B]

You haven't heard of him?

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Oh, wow. Okay. You should check him out sometime. He does a lot of really good, good teachings. He does live streams every morning. He's more of the charismatic flair.

[A]

We love charismatics.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I've got a couple of his books, you know, on my bookshelf, so.

But yeah, he, you know, so a lot of them do talk about how important it is to give to ministries and things like that. And I think when it comes to specifically targeting Latter Day Saints, I think there is the notion that people are doing it for the money. I've seen people who have left the church.

[A]

Right, Tim? But here's the thing.

[B]

Built up their own ministries.

[A]

I'm hearing, I'm hearing you on that. But. But you and Jessica made the claim specifically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That Jeff, Dirk Urban and crew are doing this to get wealthy. We're doing this for money. That we engage with Mormons and we do this for money. So I guess my question is, what evidence do you have to make those kind of public claims that we are doing this to get rich and for the money?

[B]

Well, past behavior is indicative of present behavior.

[A]

So what past behavior? Do you have evidence that we've done this for the money? Money? Well, let me just do it this way for you, Tim. How much money do Luke and I make a week from the studio? What's our salary?

[B]

I have no idea.

[A]

Okay, well, I'll go ahead and tell you. I'll go ahead and tell you. Are you ready for it? A hundred dollars. Does that sound like we're trying to get rich? Do you know how many years, Let me ask you this, how many years did we serve in this ministry before we ever got a single paycheck?

[B]

Probably a lot of years.

[A]

I started this when I was 18 years old. Old, hundreds of hours on the street. So when we started officially Apologia Radio in the studios, we're talking about a decade. A decade before a payment. Do you know that Pastor Luke and I are the lowest paid staff at Apologia Studios? And we have been since the beginning. Either we receive no money or we're the lowest paid. So my point is, is that you don't know that. I don't even own a house. Do you own a house?

[B]

No.

[A]

No. Well, good. We're on the same page. I don't own a house. And so if I would just say this to you. When you make public claims that we' this for money but you don't actually have any evidence of that, isn't that just slander?

[B]

I would have to agree with that. And if I made statements towards that, then I apologize for that.

I'm willing to own up to I forgive you, Tim.

[A]

It's all good.

[B]

Then I'm willing to all run.

[A]

It's all good. So I just want to get down out of the way because one of the things that's important for me to share with you as just a fellow human being, is that whether we don't agree on this, obviously. But my motivation here, just so you know, and I think I could say this before God with clean hands, is I love the Mormon people. I got into this because a close friend of mine when I was in high school was a Latter Day Saint. I spent months with his family at dinner with missionaries. They took me to temple for the lights and everything else when I was like 16 years old. I fell in love with your people in your community. So I love the Mormon people. And to be honest with you, I think maybe you've heard me say this before him. If I could choose a community to live in.

Like I would love to live in Mormon communities. I mean, like we basically do. I, I love like Salt Lake and South Jordan and everything else. Like I enjoy being in Mormon communities. You guys are some of the most zealous, sweet, organized, disciplined people and those communities tend to be also the safest. And so I just love your people. I know we disagree, but I, I will say that in espe, especially to Jessica because she, she made most of the really damaging comments. It was just slander and I would, I would encourage this conversation to be less ad hominem and more to the point of like where do we disagree and why? I think that's healthier, but I, I.

[B]

Agree it's healthier even if we walk away disagreeing as long as it's about, you know, I've had to change my tune on my approach and sometimes I fell fall short of that to myself because I get caught up.

[A]

Me too. Me too.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Me too. Me too. I confess to that myself.

[C]

And just for record, we have videos that with our most view, some of our most viewed videos are Jehovah's Witnesses and atheists. So we're not just targeting, targeting the LDs.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you guys are.

[B]

I, I, I've seen, I've seen some of the ones where you get into conversations with.

With, with atheists.

[A]

So Latter Day Saints are honestly though, my favorite, because you guys, I agree, the reason why is because.

I don't know, there's a million reasons why, but generally the sweetness, the love, the care, the gentleness of the Mormon community and the passion and zeal that you have your commitments. And so oftentimes, you know, you talk to atheists, you can get a passionate atheist, but also just an indifferent one. I like to talk to Mormons, generally speaking, because, I mean, there's nominal and there's nominal, you know, Christians, nominal Mormons as well as Latter Day Saints. But generally speaking, if you're talking to Latter Day Saints, it's a significant commitment. It's their identity, you know, and so I love that because it's a passion and a zeal and it's a. It's a commitment to that that you may not find elsewhere. And so I just, I love it. So just. And we may not get a lot of time, Tim, to talk about this, but you said that you were a Calvinist, and one of the things that your partner said yesterday, it was, and I'm so sorry again, forgive me, I, I didn't. I don't have it in here to pull it up. It was Mike that said, one of the things they won't talk about is Tulip. They won't defend that. Which I thought was strange though, Tim. I mean, maybe you've seen I've taught on Calvinism for decades, and publicly I've defended it, argued it. I've taught series on the doctrines of grace a number of times. So I thought that was a strange claim to make, but I guess, let's talk about it. If you were an ex Calvinist.

[B]

What.

[A]

What does that mean? You were an ex Calvinist? What did you. Is it something that you really were committed to and you eventually abandoned, or was it a community you were a part of and they were connected? Calvin. Tell us more about that.

[B]

So when I had left the church.

I started attending a Calvary chapel in my local area. And.

And part of that was just trying to figure out where I fit in, where I belong to. And.

When.

When I was doing that, I was. I had a friend and we ended up becoming drinking buddies for eight years.

And he. He was a Calvinist and he was apologist. In fact, I actually met him. Funny story, I. I met him in a library when the Internet was just getting on, and I sat down at the, at the, at the library. At the computer and he was sitting right next to me and somehow the subject of the LDS faith came up and I was just.

Agreeing back with apologetics and things like that, and then we started talking and, and then we parted ways. And then when I came back to him, I said, oh, hey, this is what happened, and shared my story with him. And then we just started hanging out and we palled around. We started doing online debates together and everything else like that. And so he kind of introduced me into Reformed theology and Calvinism. I started reading. I've read Erasmus Bondage of the Will. I've. Was it Erasmus Bondage of the Will or was it Martin Luther?

[A]

Luther.

[B]

Luther. Okay, yeah. Bondage of the Will by Luther. I read Erasmus's book. I can't remember the title off the top of my head now. Right. That's awp. Aw Pink. Arthur W. Pink. So I, I just gobbled up Reformed theology, Calvinism, and looked at all the different scriptures.

I still hold to the idea of the federal headship that Paul talks about in Romans with that. I do still find that that's scripturally sound. And then.

And then.

And then I studied infra lapse, inariness and superlapsenariness and intralaps and arinis and sadly, sadly talking to Calvinists today and I mentioned those are like, huh. I'm like, okay, you're not a true Calvinist if you don't know what I'm talking about.

[A]

But you disagree. Okay, that's helpful though. That's very good. Thank you, thank you for sharing that. And you, and you're right. Aw. Pink's the sovereignty of God. Right? That's right.

[B]

The sovereignty of God.

[A]

That's a powerful, that's a powerful small work. So, but you, you no longer agree with the doctrines of grace, and maybe we could just.

[B]

Well, no, I, I do agree with it. I, I, I do see that there is the idea of God's grace. I, I think unique view on God's grace.

[A]

I mean the, the specifically. I'm sorry, Tim, forgive me, I probably said that wrong. The, the doctrines of grace. So Tulip.

[B]

Oh, okay. That's what you're referring.

[A]

Right, Right. Because that's what, that's what your, your partner was saying that we would not discuss. And so you're an ex Calvinist and so you don't agree with the doctors of grace any longer, and so maybe we just have a, a friendly good conversation. You disagree with total depravity. Why?

[B]

The reason I disagree with total depravity is because I see it as a rebranding of the Gnostic idea that.

The material world is utterly and completely corrupted. And to overcome that, you have to reach that sense of gnosis, that sense of hidden knowledge.

That was prominent towards the end of the first century and specifically within the second century that you, you see a lot of this.

And you show up Augustine. I've studied a lot of Augustine and prior to him coming into faith within the Christian faith, he actually was Manichean.

And.

And they held to that same idea, that same philosophy. And, and I think Augustine, you know, he was a great teacher. I think he also blended a lot of his Gnostic understanding and borrowed from Gnostic. Gnosticism to incorporate into the idea of original sin. Because original sin starts with all Augustine. He's the father of original sin.

[A]

Well, we can definitely. We have a long conversation about. About that. I would, I would deny Pretty much 99% of what you just said there. But it would be strange to think that Augustine would be appealing to the mortal enemies of the Christian church since the very beginning and appealing to their theology and believing it. So that would be. I think that's a stretch, Tim, that any Christian would be using.

[B]

I don't think it's a stretch.

[A]

Gnosticism or Gnostic sources, they were, I mean, in the New Testament they're addressed by Paul and Jesus, John. They're the enemies of the Christian church all the way back to the New Testament, especially in the second century. But so I guess, okay, maybe address that. So Gnosis and the idea of secret knowledge. Reformed exegetes or believers or teachers would reject the idea that this knowledge of God is hidden and you need some secret knowledge or understanding. So that would not be something that Reformed people believe.

[B]

Believe. Well, I'm not saying that the Reformed people believe. I don't. I'm not saying that Calvinists believe that. What I'm pointing out to, and maybe I need to clarify this if I misspoke, that part of Gnostic understanding and tradition is that the material world is.

Mortally corrupted. It is utterly corrupted beyond. Right, beyond that. Yeah.

[A]

Gnostics believe that. That's right. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. And. And that's what I see total depravity as a rebranding or a repackaging of that idea, that same thought pattern, that same philosophy, that we are completely and utterly depraved, that there's nothing we can do outside of ourselves.

[A]

But is the depravity is there. And thank you for that, Tim. Is the depravity that the Reform folks are referring to. With total inability or total depravity? Is it material or is it spiritual?

[B]

I would say from my perspective and understanding, it was both. Both. When I was brought up into it, it was actually both.

[A]

Okay, so I, I would just say I'd encourage you to study that more because the one thing that reformed folks and orthodox people would do is, is make sure they clearly communicate this depravity, this inability, this fallenness is spiritual in nature and that the fall itself doesn't change the goodness of God's creation. When God created, he created it good. And so of course, you know, obviously the Gnostics believe that all the material world was evil and God would never sully himself with entering into it. It. That sort of a thing is true. You're right about that. But I would say in total depravity, that has nothing to do with what the Gnostics were saying in terms of the physical world being evil. They were talking about man's spiritual disposition and fallenness before God. Just.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's maybe just something to consider on, on that point. But in terms of total inability, what, what we were. We've been saying is that Jesus taught that whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. Sin.

[B]

And Paul taught the same thing.

[A]

Right, right. And so Jesus says whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. So what we would say is that all of us are sinners, you and me and everybody. And all of us have from the, from, from the beginning been sinners. And so if Jesus says you're a slave to sin, if you, if you sin, then all of us are slaves, not free. And that's what's being addressed in total inability, is that we're actually enslaved to our sin. We're not actually free. We're enslaved, a slave to it.

[B]

Well, I, I do agree with that. I mean, and the only thing I could fall back on to how I see that as being a, A valid understanding is, you know, you look at people who are caught up in the throes of addiction. Good point.

[A]

That's a good point.

[B]

You know, and so. And you can thank.

Carl Jung for, for that. I don't know if anybody's familiar with Carl Junior Young. You're probably familiar with Carl Young A little bit. Yeah. Because there he had a patient who was struggling with alcoholism, and this is prior to AA and the founding of AA and the Oxford group and all of that stuff.

And, and this patient of his came to him and says, is there no hope for me? And Carl Jung actually said to him, and I'm paraphrasing this again, that you know, there is, you know, really that there is nothing for you. There's no hope for you unless you have a true and genuine spiritual awakening to the reality of your own situation.

And, and until then, that's true. You are not going to change.

[A]

That's true. I fully agree with that.

[B]

So that concept for sure, in that sense, yes, I can see how a person can get so far into the throes of their sin and the, and the nature of the, their sin with the fact that they can become depraved. Paul even talks about that in, in Romans chapter one, where they're literally given up to the desires, to their own mindset because they're so closed off. They're and, and past feeling. They're. They're so stiff, naked, that it will take lack of a better phraseology, the. An act of God to turn them around.

[A]

That's, that's a good phraseology. That's, that's excellent. That's exactly right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I guess the point there is what we would be saying in terms of defining man's condition before the fall is that. Well, let me just ask, ask you this way, right? Can you define for us as an ex Calvinist, what, total inability? What that, what that doctrine is. What is it saying? Total inability.

[B]

Total inability.

[A]

Total depravity. Total inability. What does that mean?

[B]

Well, total depravity means utterly corrupt beyond hope, beyond.

Redemption. There's nothing you can do outside of yourself to bring yourself the peace and, and the, the redemption you need. Because that can only come by way through Jesus Christ.

[A]

Right? Through God opening your eyes and regenerating you. Right. So you're fallen, enslaved to sin, dead in your sins and trespasses.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so you're spiritually dead. Yes, spiritually dead. Perfect. Okay, so Jesus says in John 6:44, no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. So Jesus says there that the man has no ability in himself to even come to God apart from God drawing him. But Jesus says no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up. So Jesus teaches that he raises up the one the Father draws.

But nobody can unless the Father draws. So I guess as somebody who says, you don't believe that anymore, the total depravity does. Doctrine. What would your, your answer be to something like John 6:44?

[B]

That the father draws them to Christ.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm sorry, make so John 6:44. Simple, just one statement. It says, no man can come to me. No man is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And then he says, and I will raise him up, the one the Father draws. So no man can. Can. No man has the ability. No man has the will. No man can come to God unless the Father draws.

So as somebody who rejects Calvinism now, what would you say in response to say, like one passage like that?

[B]

Well, I have to. We have to go back and look at the context of what he's making that claim, that statement in. Yeah, because he's responding to something. Something.

Because prior to that, the Jews were grumbling, right. And because he was talking about being the bread coming down from heaven. So there's a lot of biblical symbolism there with him equating himself to being the bread of heaven that's come down. Right, the bread of life. And then they're murmuring, they're questioning, you know, isn't this the son of Joseph whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, I have come down out of his heaven? And then Jesus answer said to them, do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, and they shall all be taught of God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God. He has seen the Father. Truly? Truly. I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. So he goes back to talking about being the bread of life. Right, the bread coming down from heaven.

[A]

Yeah. And before I. Just real fast, Right, right before that, to frame this correctly so we can have a good conversation about it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Before that, though, he says all that the Father, verse 37. All that the Father gives me will come to me. And whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. For I have come. He says this, I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life and I will raise up on the last day. So the context there is Jesus saying that the Father has given people to Jesus, right? And he's come from heaven to come get them and never lose them. And then he says that no man can come unless the Father has sent me draws, and I will raise him up. My point there, Tim, and you're familiar with this, is Jesus says that, that he raises up the one the Father draws, the one that couldn't come. And so total depravity is saying that no man has the ability to come to God. There is no God seeker, All have sinned and falls short of glory of God, redemptors, sins and trespasses. No man can come to the Father or to me unless the Father sent me draws. So the point there is total depravity is just simply saying that we're so spiritually dead we wouldn't even move a muscle towards God. It has to be God and only God who saves. And if the Father draws somebody, Jesus guarantees that he will raise, raise them up.

[B]

Well, in that sense, yeah, that I, I can't come into agreement with that. Where I would go and expound upon that is that he's speaking to a specific audience. And so it's kind of a rhetorical.

Statement he's making because he's countering their murmuring because the context is they're questioning his authority, they're questioning his identity, they're questioning.

Who he's claiming to be. And, and they're so closed off. And in that sense, in that context, it would make sense that he says that the, those who. The Father draws to me, you know, he's speaking in the here now, in the present. He's not speaking 2,000 years later or, or centuries later, but he's speaking in the here and now, in the moment with them, that those who will come to him in his mortal ministry and believe on him they will inherit eternal life, that he will raise up in, in the last days. Right.

[A]

He says here, he says in verse 43, where he says the grumbling part, he says, jesus answered them, do not grumble among yourselves, yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. So don't grumble yourselves. No one can come to me now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Latter Day Saint theology, or I'd say anthropology, doesn't agree with that. Correct.

[B]

Though.

[A]

I mean, you do believe that people have the ability to seek God, respond to God. Um, everybody has that natural ability that, I mean, we're saying as, as, as Calvinists, as Reformed folks looking at a passage like this and many others, that it's clear in Scripture that no one has the ability spiritually to come to God or believe in God apart from God himself doing the work. But my point I guess here Tim is this is that Jesus says here that no one can but the Father draws and the one the Father draws, Jesus raises up.

So everyone the Father draws, Jesus will raise up on the last day.

[B]

Well, my question is how does the Father draw people to Christ?

[A]

By his grace, by his Spirit, through the proclamation of the Gospel. That's clear in scripture.

[B]

That's one aspect. Yes. But there are probably other means that God uses people and situations to bring somebody into the relationship with who Christians is.

[A]

I guess what I'm pointing to is say like you, you quoted Romans, I think appropriately in terms of the fallenness and what people do to switch God for idols and you know, God gives them over to their sin. In Romans 1:18 it says the gospel is the power of God for salvation. It's what God uses to bring people to life. And I guess maybe the point, maybe it just is, maybe hone in on it is it's about total inability is about the condition of mankind in the.

[B]

Form fall before condition of a person's heart.

[A]

Exactly. Their spiritual condition, their deadness of sin. And, and I, I guess engaging on that, you know Reformed folks would point to all these passages were dead in our sins and trespasses, slaves to sin, not able to come to God, non God seekers, alienated from God. And that's what total inability teaches.

[B]

So I, so here's a question that I have for, for you.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because for me the term total inability seems to be a more newer evolved understanding because like I said back in, when I was, when I had left the church and I had embraced Calvinism and Reformed theology, nobody threw around the term of inability. It was total depravity. It was, you're completely depraved. You, you can't even choose to decide whether you want to come to Christ or not.

[A]

Well that's, that's true.

[B]

To even pray to him and, or even have a desire to even think about because you are so utterly condemned and only God chooses whether you're going to be. He's going to draw you or not. Right.

[A]

And, and that's a total, when we say total nobility is to express what the framers of the doctrines of grace when they were arguing with the followers of our Jacob Arminius, what they, that's old terminology, depravity, what were they getting at? It was, it was the issue of whether their will was it free or enslaved. That was the key issue. So when I say total depravity, total Inability. I just use them interchangeably. But I think you are on the mark, though. You are on the mark when you talk about man's condition. Unable to seek God, come to God apart from God himself doing the work. And that's a total depravity or total inability. Teaching speeches.

I guess, I guess what I would say. Do you have this. It doesn't seem like you have really a disagreement with some of these passages.

[B]

I don't. I, I just, I again, I look at the nuance, I look at the context, I look at what is, who is he speaking to? What is the subject matter? So I guess importantly is how do I apply it into my own life so I can live it out the best I can and, and follow. Follow the teachings.

[A]

Yeah. Well, maybe if we had more time to talk, we could maybe get into some points of real disagreement there with. But I don't want to overwhelm your time. We've been on, I think, for an hour and a half now, I think. Am I right about that? So maybe, maybe. Tim, if you're, if you're willing, we'll have another conversation. We'll just stick to this part of the conversation to see, like, are there disagreements? What are they? And I just thought it may be healthy because your partner said that's something we would want to discuss. But I think we're having a good discussion about it. It right now. And I think maybe, maybe Tim and I could be wrong about this. It seems like you haven't shaken some of your Calvinism loose yet.

[B]

No, actually I did a video on Perseverance of the saints that we, for me, as a lot of they say, I can actually see, you know, within the LDS framework with the universality of everybody being resurrected, whether you're going to participate in the, the first resurrection or participate in the second resurrection, depending on how you live your life, whether you live it righteously and following the teachings or you live it unrighteously and don't follow the teachings. In that sense, there is the.

The, the, the idea of.

Because of the atonement, the nature of the atonement.

You can't lose out on that aspect of being redeemed from the dead.

And I'm talking about the physical resurrection here.

Because everybody's guaranteed to be resurrected. The question is, like I said, are you going to be part of the first resurrection? Are you going to be part of the second resurrection? Because Scripture is quite clear that there is going to be two specific resurrections for two specific groups of people.

[A]

Yeah, this would probably be a good conversation to have in the future. We're communicating now, at least through text and so maybe if you're up for it, Tim, we can just have a healthy discussion. Discussion. Maybe at a point in the future on this particular point, it might actually be. I think it's interesting to me. It's, it is very interesting because I'm not sure, like I said, I've ever seen an ex Calvinist, latter day saint engage on this discussion. I don't think I've ever seen a conversation like that. It might actually be healthy. And some of what you're saying here, it seems like, you know, you do still accept some of these things. I'm just wondering how it all comes together. But I'm grateful for you, Tim. Thank you for. Seriously. I'm just like last minute. It was like midnight last night. I think your time when you were doing all this stuff. No, no, no, it was at least of them. It was midnight.

[B]

Yeah, it, it was, it was late.

[A]

And you, you agreed. And so I want to say I honor you. I honor you. I want to thank you so much for the time and the commitment. It means a lot to me to see somebody willing to, to, to. To have a conversation after they talk about somebody as to why and that.

[B]

Yeah. And I apologize if, if I misspoke and said so. I do want to apologize and. Oh, it's, you know, because I believe that if, if, you know, I believe that, you know, if you are properly corrected, you need to be humble enough and, and, and say, yeah, I made a mistake and own up to it. And if I misspoke, then I apologize.

[A]

Well, you are. You are an honorable man, Tim. You're an honorable man.

[B]

I try to be. I, I do my best.

[A]

Yeah, all of us, all of us are trying. No, you're an honorable man. I respect you. I appreciate. I truly, truly do. From the heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so maybe we'll talk again in the future. I was blessed to. And I hope you have a Merry Christmas.

[B]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. And.

So, yeah, hopefully we can have better conversations in the future and, and.

[A]

Maybe we'll have another conversation where your whole team comes on. We have a, A fruitful conversation. It might get a little wild at first, but it'll probably, hopefully, hopefully end like this.

[B]

I think sometimes our egos and attitudes get in the way and we forget.

[A]

Well, we're all sinners. And that can tend to happen in all contexts. So I appreciate you. So, Tim, I'll communicate with you some more. Feel free to Communicate with me and maybe, Lord willing, we'll be on again together. Okay.

[B]

All right. All right.

[A]

Thank you, Tim.

[B]

Thank you for having me on.

[A]

God bless you, man. Thank you so much.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Bye. Bye. All right, so Gabe, we got another break here.

Are you. Gabe, are you alive? All right, yeah, let's do it. Let's do another break real fast and then everyone stay with us. We have more to share with you, more to talk about. Thank you guys. In the thread right now, if you would everyone share this conversation. The goal is ultimately to. To create more and more contact and more and more conversation with Latterday saints and Christians. It's important that our communities are talking to each other. Sometimes it becomes challenging, sometimes it's difficult, sometimes it can become a fight. But hopefully it will usually end like that just did with, with Tim. He's a. He's a solid, solid guy to talk to. So quick break and we'll be right back.

[C]

This video is brought to you by amtech Blades. We are very excited to be partnering with amtech. Bill Rapier, long time Navy Seal, dev, career operator, amazing brother and friend. Looking for a battle ax to carry on your person to chop some wood. They've got you covered. Looking for a blade to carry on you every day. Also got you covered. Look at this. I gotta check my mail. What do we got covered going on here? Oh, look how sharp that is. What is this? Oh, 5% off. You can go to amtagblades.com, put apology in the coupon code, get 5% off your order and he will match that and give 5% to End Abortion Now. Again, amtech blades.com we're grateful for them. Check them out.

[A]

All right, everybody, welcome back. Hope you guys enjoy the program today. So glad we got a chance to have Tim on. Truly, truly appreciate him very, very, very much. And yeah, it's a big deal to have somebody up late like that in like the very last minute, hey, come on, a couple hours later and have a conversation about it. So you really need to show respect to the man, honor the man for that kind of commitment and I don't know. Luke, you got anything you want to say about it?

[C]

I'm just going to say I've been called a lot of things.

But gnostic's not one of them.

[A]

Yeah, that was, it was a weird connection to make. I was trying to. I was really trying to figure out where he was going with that. But so we're thankful for all of you guys. Listen, we have really. Listen, you're on right now, you guys Are, are benefiting from the ministry, blessed by the ministry. We want to point you guys to something really, really important. We are getting more and more advanced and closer to abolition and equal protection for all humans for fertilization by the day. I just got word that, Lord willing, we got the commitment, we're actually going to have the first bill of abolition and equal protection in the state of Illinois. Yeah, that is another. It's a very big deal. So next year. Right now we've got Georgia, there's South Carolina, there's Texas. North Dakota. South Dakota, right?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Idaho, Iowa. Missouri.

[C]

Yep. Their bills in.

[A]

Yeah, Missouri. And guys, Tennessee, potentially Georgia. Yeah, that's right. Georgia. It's. I mean, South Carolina. There's so many happening, guys, bills of abolition and churches that are still, still signing up to go out and save lives regularly at the abortion mills. Guys, if you haven't signed up yet to do that yourselves with your church, go do it. End abortionnow.com. get the free training, get the free resources. We want nothing from your church. We want to just train you, equip you, get you your stuff. Go save lives. Tens of thousands have been saved over all these years of ministry. They continue to be saved lives literally saved. So go sign up. But also if you would, go to endabortionnow.com help us to meet our goal for this ministry, to save these lives and to ultimately abolish this thing. It's a, it's a lot of work we have. If you only knew the size of our team. It is a small team. You're looking at is a very small team of dedicated and just solid, passionate people. Very, very, very small. We we operate effectively and with a minimal budget in, in terms of the damage that is being done. And so we need to get to our budget for 2026. Help us to, to get there. Pray for us. Yes. Partner with us. Come and meet with us when we do these rallies and bills in your state and these meetings in your state. But also give, if you would, to end abortion now. End abortion now dot com. Go there. Help us to meet our goal. Guys. We need to get to that goal so we can accomplish and pull all of this off. It takes quite a lot to go to these states and to pull this off and to get bills of abolition into these states and, and we need your help. So endabortion now.com Luke?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, I'm excited this year. We got a lot of good stuff going up. We're also working on Alaska. It won't be this year, but maybe the next year. So if you're in Alaska, hit us up where we're. We're literally building a ground root. I can't talk right now, but at.

[A]

The ground level, root ground Team Abolition is happening and Luke's not afraid to go to Alaska in winter time.

[C]

I've immediately volunteered for it. When he said, Alaska, Yeah.

[A]

I said, alas, Alaska. He's like, you're going to want me to go do this, right? I was like, if it's in the wintertime, please, Luke will be there in his sandals and his shorts.

[C]

Yep. I did the same with don't worry, I got the cold stage. That's. That's my natural habitat.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Anyways, so if you're in Alaska, hit us up. We're working on building that team, so. Looking forward to that. But I just. It's Christmas time, right? So there's a couple opportunities. We just saw our amtech ad. Wives, Your husbands would love an amtac blade for Christmas. Trust me. You go to amtech Blades. You just saw the ad, so I don't need to say it, but we also have our swag. You miss if you didn't get stuff yet from shop apologiestudios.com you still can. You did miss our Black Friday sale. We just put a whole bunch of new stuff up. But I've been told by Kyle that if you order by December 15, you should have in time for Christmas.

[A]

So sweet.

[C]

So you can check that out. And then Heritage Defense, Bradley Pierce, who writes all of our abolition bills, is also heading up Heritage Defense. If you homeschool your children, please go to heritage defense.org, sign up, put apology in the coupon code, get your first month free. And then of course, I want to mention our guys at Reform Money, Dominion wealth, they're always in the chat. I just saw Josiah, I saw your comment and I may have laughed out loud in my brain. Grateful for those guys.

[A]

Laughed out loud in my brain.

[C]

Yeah, I had a lull in my brain. So.

Merry Christmas.

[A]

Dominion Wealth. Hey, guys. So it just also for all the people that we have that support this ministry so that we can keep the lights on and do the work that we're doing. Like things like Heritage Defense guys, these are things that we truly believe in. They will bless your lives. They'll protect your family. Even with Heritage Defense, we love those guys. We believe in all these things and we believe they'll be bless you. And they help us to continue to do the ministry that we're doing with Apologia Studio. So if this ministry is a blessing to you, go help them. Go support them as well. They support us, and we're thankful for all of them. Hey, so obviously it's Christmas time. Things slow down a little bit for us. If it's a weird month, it's like they slow down, kind of is, but also not because we're preparing for, like, a very busy year next year. We've got stuff happening next session in states across the country. We've got a hearing coming up in Georgia for our bill of abolition. And so it's just a weird feeling. It's like we're trying to rest, we're trying to relax. But also at the same time, we've got a lot of work to do to prepare for the next year. So please pray for us. Pray for the ministry, all the work of the gospel that's coming out of Apologia Studios, and we're just thankful for all of you guys. Make sure you guys share this particular video. We think it'll be a blessing to Latter Day Saints and to Christians alike. We're thankful for all of you guys. I'm Jeff the Com ninja. That's Luke the Bear.

[C]

Merry Christmas.

[A]

We'll catch you next week right here on Apology Radio.