Pastor Jeff Durbin (2:21)

Take an amazing journey to a place.

Brandon Robertson (2:26)

That will blow your mind and move your mind so you will never be the same again.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (2:37)

For you formed my inward part. You knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you for I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works. My soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance. In your book were written every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet, there was none of them. That's Psalm 139, everybody. Famous passage, beautiful passage, man. A passage you can go to and just get your soul satisfied and experience peace and comfort from God. But also a very relevant section of scripture when it comes to this discussion that we're going to be having today. I'm Pastor Jeff. This is Apologia Radio, Ish, kind of a special sort of broadcast. We're going to be engaging a bit with homosexual, lgbt progressive Reverend. Yeah, right. Brandon Robertson. Some of you guys may remember Brandon Robertson. He appeared on Apologia Radio a couple of years ago. Gosh, when was this? This is maybe two years ago or so. I forget exactly when it was. If you haven't seen it, I go check it out. Just look up Brandon Robertson, Apologia, and you'll see we spent considerable amount of time speaking with him. It was Dr. James White myself, engaging with him. And so that's up. If you haven't seen yet, I hope you guys get a chance to see that. I thought it was. Well, I hope it was very helpful to engage with some of, some of his positions on homosexuality. And, you know, if you don't know much about Brandon Robertson, he's the darling of, of the LGBT community when it comes to a reverend, a pastor, a Christian who promotes his perverse views and tries to coat them in biblical language and Christian language. So just play a quick clip so you get a little taste of, of, of our interaction. This was about an hour into our conversation when he had to go, and this is the final part of the conversation where we last spoke. Any binding authority or have any binding authority upon them at all, because they can do what you do and simply go, you know, I just don't see it that way.

Brandon Robertson (4:53)

Do you think that's. I hope they do say they don't.

Michael Knowles (4:55)

See it that way.

Brandon Robertson (4:55)

We're all on this journey of trying to understand truth and live in alignment with Jesus as best as we can.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (5:01)

But you've given up truth.

Brandon Robertson (5:03)

I don't believe the John.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (5:04)

What is the truth according to Jesus? Well, we'll end with this because I know you're over time. We want to show you respect. According to Jesus, what is the truth?

Brandon Robertson (5:11)

There is. That's such an ambiguous question.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (5:13)

Well, he does actual verse that says that you're a Reverend. So John 17:17, thy word is truth. God's revelation is the truth, not your mind. Brandon, not your lusts. I will let you. We'll let you go and call you to repentance because you do need to repent, my friend.

Brandon Robertson (5:29)

Please repent of your false gospel.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (5:31)

Okay. All right. Thanks, Brandon.

Brandon Robertson (5:33)

Thank you. Peace.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (5:34)

So that's the last time we met via the Internet and love to have a discussion with Brandon Robertson on this specific issue on the issue of abortion. Brandon Robertson is pro abortion and he believes that's consistent with the Christian position. And we're going to be playing through some of his comments, his conversation with Michael Knowles. Man, you guys might be very well aware of. Michael knows Knowles. Very sharp guy, super sharp guy. And, and Michael had Brandon on to discuss this issue of abortion. So we're playing through some of that, making some comments. Encourage you guys all to go to apologiastudios.com to get more from Apologia. Also encourage you guys to go to endabortion now.com you can go there. You can partner with us in ministry, financially, help us to get to our budget goal for 2026. We have bills of abolition and equal protection that we're responsible for, that we've gotten in states across the country, including new states that haven't happened yet, including Illino. So it's happening across the country. And we are helping brothers and sisters from other churches and organizations who've gotten their own bills into states across the United States of America. We need your help. You can also go to Apologia, sorry, go to endabortionnow.com and you can get free training and free resources, everything you need to join the over a thousand churches that have been equipped and trained to go out to the abortion mills where the killing is taking place. And you can go bring the gospel, you can bring help and hope to those mothers and fathers, and you can be a part of the literally 10 of thousands of babies that have been saved through that specific work within abortion Now. And so you get free training, free resources. We want nothing from your church. We just want to give everything away and make sure you guys are out there saving lives. It is truly an incredible thing to be a part of. Very humbling. And. Yeah. So let's get right to it. So again, Michael Knowles, Brandon Robertson on Michael Knowles show discussing the issue of abortion. We're going to play through, not all of it, but a lot of it. And let me make sure I get to the right part here. And let's get started.

Michael Knowles (7:39)

Not safe to inhabit. Fine by me. What is the argument? I mean, what is the basic argument, you know, I'm a mackerel snapping papist, as I mentioned once or twice, even in this very segment. And the Catholic Church has been consistent for 2000 years that abortion is not to be permitted. Going back to the DDOC A, going back to the earliest catechism that we have.

Brandon Robertson (8:00)

Well, to that point, I actually, I mean, my position, I would say, actually leans on a lot of some of the early Catholic saints and theologians. You know, this argument there has been a large degree of diversity in Christian theology about when exactly life begins. You have Augustine and Thomas Aquinas having this belief that sometime after conception and there's varying.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (8:23)

Okay, so we need to start engaging with that. And so, well, Michael brings up, I mean, obviously I would very strongly disagree with him when he refers to it being the Catholic Church as, as though, you know, Roman Catholicism today is synonymous with, with what they meant early on in the history of the Church. They talk about Catholic. But yeah, it is true that there's consistency in the early Church throughout the church fathers, throughout the history of the Christian church on the issue of abortion, infanticide, all of that. It's, it's, it's consistent and strong. It's powerful and. But Brandon sort of flip and talks about, you know, when does life begin? But the issue of abortion and infanticide is, is clearly addressed by the church. And so what Michael mentions is one of the earliest writings that we have outside of the New Testament documents themselves in terms of something that's not, you know, inspired New Testament literature, but it's something that, that is early church. And what did the early church believe? And what Michael referred to there was what we call the didache. And this is the teaching of the early Christians. Very, very, very close to the passing of the apostles. And it's just really powerful. It's. If you haven't got a chance to read yet, encourage you to do so. Did. Okay, take a look at that and it'll, it'll surprise you some of the things that are talked about in there on baptism and abortion. And Didache does mention abortion and calls it murder. So I'll pull it up here on the screen so you can see the Didache. One of the quotes here from the Didache is the second commandment of the teaching. You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you should not seduce boys, you should not commit fornication, you should not steal, you should not practice magic, you should not use potions, you should not procure an abortion nor destroy a newborn child. And the dedicate goes on to call it murder. And so the Letter of Barnabas. This is from 8074 and quote, the way of light then is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way is the following. Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion, nor again shalt thou destroy it after it is born. That's from the Letter of Barnabas. We can keep going. The Apocalypse of Peter in interesting work. It says this though it says in 8137 approximately and quote and near that place I saw another straight place, and there sat woman, and over against them many children who were born. To them out of due time sat crying. And there came forth from them rays of fire and smoked woman in the eyes. And these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion. So you can see early on in the Christian church you have what is consistent within biblical, the biblical text and the Christian worldview all the same. AthenaGoras In AD 177, a plea for the Christians says, what man of sound mind therefore will affirm, while such is our character, that we are murderers when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder and will have to give an account to God for the abortion. On what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being and therefore an object of God's care. And, and when it is passed into life to kill it and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child murder. And on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it. And so you know that word exposure, and so many of you guys are familiar with this, I'm sure that early on in this, this time of history, you had the practice that was fairly common practice where they would take children that were just recently born and, and they didn't want them for whatever reason, whatever excuse, and they would actually just basically toss them out, let them die of exposure to the elements. They would just die. And it was the early Christians that were actually going around at night and they were picking these babies up who were tossed out to die of exposure, and they were bringing them into their own families and adopting, adopting them, and just praise the Lord for that. You know, one of the, one of the early ministries, not unlike other ministries that are going to the abortion mill to stand there and plead for the lives of these children and to rescue those who are being led away to death and stumbling to the slaughter. And it's, it's been a practice of the Christian church since the beginning to preserve and protect innocent human life. And so you can see this throughout church history. But there's, there's, there's so, so much more. There is. Basil the Great says in first canonical letter, canon two, this is 8374, uh, quote, let her that procures abortion undergo 10 years penance whether the embryo was perfectly formed or not. And you know, you're seeing consistent consistency here. It says, he that kills another with a sword or hurls an ax at his own wife and kills her is guilty of willful murder. Not he who throws a stone at a dog and unintentionally kills a man, or who corrects one with a rod or a scourge in order to reform him. Or who kills a man in his own defense when he only designed to hurt him. But the man or woman is a murderer who that gives a philtrum as the man that takes it dies upon it. So are they who take medicines to procure abortion, and so are they who kill on the highway. And so you see, the point is that the, from the earliest stages of the Christian church down to the Didache, literally like the earliest writings of the Christian church outside of the New Testament, the word for abortion for the Christian church is murder. Now, we could do this ad infinitum, ad nauseam, throughout church history, but of course, Brandon Robertson wants to say, well, you know, there's, there's church fathers that disagree on like exactly when life begins. And he pulls from Thomas Aquinas and from Augustine. And so let's, let's get into that because that's an important part of this discussion as well.

Brandon Robertson (14:43)

Degrees of dates and times when that happens, that they believe life actually begins. And I do think, to be very honest, that that is a question that's beyond all of our pay grade, including the magisterium of the Catholic Church's pay grade, to actually know the precise moment of when life begins. But it does seem to.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (15:00)

Now, where's this coming from? It's coming from a consistent theme that you'll see with Brandon Robertson. You see to Brandon Robertson, he'll, he'll say about particular texts in the Bible, I don't believe that, or that's just Paul's opinion, or Paul was wrong about that, or Jesus was wrong for that. You know, Jesus was a racist with this woman in this story, like literally calls Jesus a racist. And so for Brandon Robertson, it isn't a question of what does the text of the Bible say? Because Brandon Robertson doesn't really believe that God can communicate so effectively and clearly on his own that he can be just straightforward, understood. Brandon Robertson doesn't like the black and white statements. And so he even. And during this interview, he can, he condemns that with the, the, the radical progressives on left, the really far left is, is they like to see things in black and white. Brandon Robertson doesn't like to do that. He doesn't like to see the world as black and white, although we can't actually live that way, because when it comes to really dramatic issues of ethical failures like, say, rape and those sorts of things, he did, he does think in black and white categories. Brandon Robertson likes to be fuzzy and gray when it comes to moral issues and lust that he has. And on issues like this, he likes to stay in the gray and he likes to be muddy. Because ultimately, Brandon Robertson doesn't believe these are the very words of God. Thus saith the Lord. In certain state, in certain instances, he might say, no, I believe God said that. But generally speaking, he looks at the Bible with a lot of suspicion. And so for Brandon Robertson, this isn't the question of, well, what has God said? You know, can we say what Jesus says? Have you not read what was spoken to you by God and then quote Scripture? Jesus takes the, the reading of Scripture as God spe being. Brandon Robertson doesn't like that. He doesn't like to live in that world. That's not his worldview. That's not his perspective on Scripture. He has an epistemology that he can't really know. Doesn't really know. And yet he claims no on many of these issues. And so this is where Brandon Robertson's at. And this is why, you know, he'll bounce around from maybe text of the Bible to maybe, you know, what did Thomas Aquinas say? Or what did Augustine say? What did those fallow men say on this issue do? And it, for us, it's always a question of, all right, but what did God say? Like, how do I know that Augustine or Augustine, however you want to say it. I have to say Augustine because my son's. My son's name is pronounced. We say it Augustine. So I get, I get stuck on that. How do we know that Augustine was right or wrong? Is it just our opinion? We just, it's just subjectively interpreted. You know, I feel that way. It goes well with my worldview, my current view on ethics and how do we know Augustine was right? How do we know that John Chrysostom was right? How do we know that Athanasius was right? How do we know that the Didache is saying anything worth listening to? How do we know? And so for the Christian, the Christian says, well, here's the thing, God has spoken. It's what I actually communicated to Brandon in our discussion. John 17:17, Jesus says in his high priestly prayer to the Father, he says, thy word is truth. For Jesus, the word of God is the truth. The revelation of God is the truth. And so how do you know that what I'm saying is true? What Brandon's saying is true, Michael's saying is true. For the Christian who's grounded in the word of God and God's revelation, the Christian says, well, God's word is the standard. It's the plumb line. That's literally what it is. And the word there, Aletheia in the Greek there. John 17:17, Truth, it's the plumb line. It's how you know something is right or is true. It's the thing you very, you test and you measure. I'm learning a lot about this actually. I've built some things in my life. You know, I've built, you know, I've done dryw and when Luke and I were planting apology at church, you know, we had to do side jobs and to survive and things like that. And so I helped Luke build some things and a lot of drywall and stuff like that. But I have been helping my father in law with a family business in building luxury, mobile, portable bathrooms and, and some other things. And so I'm doing framing and all the rest. And my father in law is a master builder. He's been building for like, like 50 some odd years. And he's just, he's just a master and a perfectionist. And so I, you know, I'm just learning so much about things being right and true and squared up just right. And he is just, he, he'll see stuff that it's like, how do you even see that that's off? How did you even know that that was off? And making sure that everything is right and making sure everything is true. And when he's, when he's figuring out though if something is right or if it's actually true, he's not just eyeballing it. He'll see and he'll say this isn't right, this isn't true. But when it comes out, when we're doing the framing and getting everything together, and squared up and all that stuff. He's using tools and levelers and lines to ensure that what he has put up is right and true. And so he gauges the work and what he has done by what is the standard. And the standard tells him he's wrong. And I can't tell you how many times already that I've been helping him. And it seems like it's perfect and it's true and it's right. And he'll go, nope, this is off by an eighth of an inch or a quarter of an inch. And how does he know it's off by an eighth of an inch, of a quarter of an inch? It's not because he's simply eyeballing it. It looks fine to me, and it might even look fine to him at a point. But he'll realize that it's off by that eighth of an inch or whatever it is. He'll realize it because he has the standard by which he measures it. And what he doesn't do is get the standard out and say, no, the standard is wrong. What I've done is right and true, and ignore the standard. If you do that, your house is going to collapse, your building is going to fall apart. And that is how we use the word of God, is that we might have a system we've constructed, we might have a view that we've constructed. We've built it up, we think it's right, we think it's true. And then along comes the standard. And this is the standard and what we ought to do. And this is something that is stated by every major church Father. You can pick them. I mean, just Athanasius will talk like this. Augustine will talk like this. You see it throughout the Fathers. It doesn't ultimately matter epistemologically in terms of certainty. How do I know this is true? What some council has said and what some church father has said? I mean, they say this. It is the word of God that is the standard by which you measure whether the council got it right, or this church father, or this pastor or bishop got it right. And so the standard is the word of God, the revelation of God. That's how you know that is not Brandon Robertson's worldview, not even close. And that's why you see a lot of bouncing around and a lot of drawing from different sources to say, well, look, Thomas Aquinas, he said this. Thomas Aquinas said a lot of asinine things. Thomas Aquinas said a lot of things that were inconsistent with Scripture. Thomas AQUINAS is not an inspired apostle. Thomas Aquinas is a man who lived at a certain point in history that honestly was ignorant about a lot of things in life. And it's not to say that he didn't offer some things that might be helpful, not to say that at all. It's to say that he did say provably so with the Scriptures, a lot of things that were not biblical and true. And so where do you go for solace? Where do you go for a foundation? You go to the word of God. You test Thomas Aquinas by the Scriptures, you test Thomas Aquinas by the word of God, you test Augustine by the word of God. And so just, I mean, just think about the. Just the one text, just the one text that was brought up here at the beginning of the, of the program today for you formed my inward parts. You knitted me together in my mother's womb. Look, that's. That's the Bible. That's the word of God. That's what God says about this process of a human being, that it is God himself, uniquely as the creator and the artist who forms my inward parts. You knitted me together in my mother's womb. So the place where the potter works is in the wombs of mothers. This is where the artist, the master artist, creates human beings in the wombs of their mothers. And the wording there is formed. My inward parts knitted me together in my mother's womb. I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Not an accident, not potential life, not an accident, made. It is God who makes human beings in mother's wombs. And so Robertson is going to try to say, what's potential human life? Where do you get that in the Bible? I mean, it says knits them together in the womb. He makes them in the womb. And I love this part here. This is really, really cool. It says, my frame was not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes, this is. This is big. Your eyes saw my unformed substance. In your book were written every one of them. The days that were formed for me. There it is again. Formed by God, created by God. And the days for us are formed by God when there's not even one of them. How do you get away from that? You don't. You don't accept, you ignore, you don't accept. You create a system that is in opposition to it. And that's what Brandon Robertson could deliver master classes on.

Brandon Robertson (24:46)

From where I sit, Understanding the science and with my theological perspective that life does not begin at conception. Conception is a potential life, and that there are a number of reasons we're.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (24:58)

Not going to get very far in today's episode. Good grief.

Brandon Robertson (25:02)

Whoa.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (25:03)

His perspective that it's scientifically speaking, not human life. Not human life, not life. It's potential human life. That is. That is one of the most ignorant things for someone to say in this century. And it demonstrates that Brandon Robertson must be asleep at the wheel of his studies completely, or he hasn't engaged this issue. Nobody, biologically, nobody disagrees about the biological situation that we're in and the nature of this discussion. Nobody disagrees. If you do, you'd be laughed to scorn that at the moment of conception, you have the creation of a unique human being at the very moment of conception. Nobody disagrees with that. Who doesn't want to be laughed out of academia? Brandon Robertson is like, hundreds of years behind on this. We usually just don't know. And, you know, what happens at conception, you know, isn't. Isn't the creation of human life as you know, is potential human life what it is? Without question. Do your homework, Brandon. Seriously, this is embarrassing. Do your homework before you make comments like this publicly. It is truly embarrassing. There is no question or debate, none, on the subject of whether what happens at conception is the creation of human life at that very moment. Is it feline life? Canine life? What kind of life is it at the moment of conception? Human life. It is, by very definition, alive and life. Yes. The size is different. The level of development is different. The environment it is in is different than other environments we find ourselves in throughout life. The degree of dependency upon another life is at a certain stage, but it is without question, biologically speaking, at the very moment of conception, a unique human being in the earliest stage of development. It is not potential human life. It is human life by biological definition. And it is stunning to me that a man like this could make a comment like that in 2020. Well, when did you do this? Probably, let's say in the 2000 and twenties. It is. It is stunning to me, honestly, stunning. And honestly, Brandon, embarrassing that a woman.

Brandon Robertson (27:55)

Might need to have an abortion. And I don't think that should be outlawed or illegal. And I think most Christians in the modern era have agreed with that. In fact, you'll know, Christianity Today, back in the 1960s, published a whole entire article.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (28:08)

And of course, we can ask the question, why might a woman need to have an abortion? He hasn't answered that just yet. But we need to challenge that and say, okay, let's, let's, let's, let's flesh that out a little bit. Why might a woman need to take the life of her unborn child? Why might that need to happen? And of course, you probably hear the typical talking points of the left, you know, rape, incest, life of the mother, which account for 2% or less than all abortions annually. Those, those three. Rape, incest, life of the mother. And so, so why might she have to, we have to ask those questions because really the answer is across the board, women are killing their children in the womb because they want to, because they want to, not because, quote, they need to. And you know, it could be, it could be pressed upon people like this and say, okay, great, let's, let's, let's pretend for a moment now that life, rape, incest, life of the mother, that will allow abortion for those but criminalize every other one of them you good with. And they'll always say no, because in reality, what do we want? We want the freedom to take the lives of our children in the womb. And so quick commercial break, everybody. Thank you for staying with us. Do all the things you got to do, the likes, the shares and everything else. Let's get the word about, word out about this and see if Brandon Robertson would like to join me for another opportunity to engage on this particular subject. And so stay with us, guys. Be right back. This episode's brought to you by ion layer@ionlayer.com Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits and longevity benefits benefits of NAD treatments. NAD is nicknamed the Fountain of Youth for a reason. You have an abundance of this in your system when you're young. As you get older, it drops off. And now we found a way to get NAD into our systems. They do it through IV treatments, but they're very expensive and it's also extremely painful and difficult. However, Ion Layer found a way to get a high dose of NAD into your system through a medical path patch you wear on your arm. You wear it for about 14 hours, you get a high dose of NAD treatment into your system and no pain at all. And it is a fraction of the cost of what you would pay for an IV treatment. In the coupon code, type in Apologia in all caps. They're going to hook you up with a great discount for an already amazingly cost effective product. And they bless Apologia Studios and help us to stay on the air and do all these programs with you. Don't forget. Also, Ion Layer has added a glutathione patch as well. Glutathione, the master antioxidant. Go check out the health benefits of glutathione. I'm doing this stuff anyways. It's blessed my life in tremendous ways. And so if you want to focus on your health, wellness and longevity, nothing better in my mind than ionlayer.com for your NAD and Glutathione treatments. Ionlayer.com don't forget to put apologia in all caps in the coupon code. All right, everyone, here we go. More from gay pastor Brandon Robertson on the issue of abortion that was pro.

Brandon Robertson (31:14)

Choice and advocating for abortion. So it's a relatively recent move that we've seen conservative Christianity really hamper down and say that abortion is this mortal sin that we must all avoid.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (31:25)

That is absolute. Let me just sound like an old person right now. Hogwash. It is absolute nonsense that it's relatively new that we see conservative Christians fighting against the issue of abortion. Oh, Brandon, Brandon, you make so many comments throughout your gay pastor career that are just truly stunning that demonstrate that you will say things that you have that you've never studied and have no idea what you're talking about. None, none. To say that the conservative Christians move this direction of criminalizing and doing what we're doing now. This is relatively recent movement in history.

Michael Knowles (32:05)

History.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (32:07)

Oh, it is. It is truly stunning. I, I'd encourage, hey, let's try this. I'd encourage you, Brandon. Go and this will just be a little bit of homework for you. Go and research the creation, the, the initial stages of the New York Times and where that came from. The New York Times, I know they've come a long way, but did you know that there was a rising abortifacient industry rising up and not long after actually the Civil War and pastors and physicians got together and fought against the aborted this abortifacient industry as Christians, conservative Christians, not very long ago, I guess, and they were fighting against this issue of the abortifacient industry that was rising up and becoming very profitable. And, and so one of the things they did to promote their research and to communicate their position was to do it through a little publication known as the New York Times. And so pretty, pretty amazing. And an exam, just one fairly recent example of the fact that Brandon Robertson does not have a clue what he's talking about. Brandon, just, just go do some research on the church fathers and early Christians and what Christians did to fight against abortifacients, abortion, infanticide. Do your homework before you make public.

Michael Knowles (33:37)

Comments like this on the Protestant side. And so worth pointing out here for the. We have our own liberals in the Catholic Church too, and we call them Jesuits. But even they, even the liberals in the Catholic Church tend to be ardently pro life. I mean, some of them are. I think of one Jesuit in particular, Father James Martin, who's my good friend. Exactly. I'm not surprised to hear that. But even he is ardently pro life. Christianity Today is a Protestant magazine. And you know, I like that the evangelicals kind of came over on the pro life side to your point on Thomas Aquinas, for instance. Cause this is a great observation that St. Thomas Aquinas. It's a little unclear, especially if you're not totally immersed in his thoughts. Does Thomas Aquinas endorse abortion? Because he says that at a certain point you have the ensoulment of the baby, you know, maybe around quickening or something. The reason for that, however, is based on a faulty understanding of how gestation works. And it's no knock on St. Thomas Aquinas. He didn't have sonograms at the time. But the belief coming from Aristotle's understanding of biology, was that the only active principle in conception was the sperm, and that the, the sperm acted on the blood of the woman, so there was no conception really of an egg, that the sperm was acting on the blood and it was in a vegetative soul for some period of time until quickening, say until you could feel the baby. And now, not because of any theological developments, but because we have sonograms and things like that, and because we have modern genetics and because we, you know, we have microscopes and things, we can actually see that that's not when life begins, that the new human person with the full independent genome and the principles of life, you know, growth and metabolism and all the rest of it, they all begin at conception. Conception meaning the very beginning. So your argument beyond.

Jeff Durbin (35:35)

So.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (35:37)

Isn'T it interesting that biological science is only fairly recently catching up with what the Bible and biblical worldview was communicating all along? What Psalm 139 says, knit together in a mother's womb, fearfully and wonderfully made. And your eyes saw my unformed substance. But we don't have time today to do it on the show, but definitely go and research that particular section of Scripture, the unformed substance. In light of the life issue. It just, it is really powerful the, the language that is used there. However, one of the things that I think would be helpful to point out here is that when you have a man like Brandon Robertson appealing to the ignorance of Thomas, Thomas Aquinas, it highlights something, and that is that Thomas Aquinas, I think, and this, this gets down to apologetic methodology and epistemology and things like that. Some of you guys might not be too interested in this, but it is important, actually. It, it's very important in terms of Thomas Aquinas methodology and natural theology and those sorts of things and reason and the, the influence of Aristotle and, and Greek philosophy in his own thinking. What I would point to is that Thomas Aquinas at this point isn't operating based upon the revelation of God. And what do the Scriptures say? And so if Thomas Aquinas gets it wrong, he gets it wrong for all the right reasons in terms of. This is where you're getting that stuff from. So of course you're going to be off, off. But if you would just stick to the revelation of God, you would have consistency at this point, the same kind of consistency that you see throughout church history in a number of the fathers and bishops and heroes and giants of church history. And so this does, you know, it makes sense to me that Thomas Aquinas would, would blow it there. And that has a lot to do with his epistemology and natural theology and those sorts of things. I think you can make those mistakes quite easily there. But if you're, if you're appealing to the word of God and the revelation of God is the standard, then you're not gonna make those mistakes as easily. And more from Michael and Brandon.

Michael Knowles (37:40)

You know, when life begins, which you say it's beyond our pay grade theologically, I don't think it's really beyond the pay grade at the very least of scientists and biologists, you know, whatever you wish. This, you could say, well, the baby doesn't have a soul or isn't entitled to dignity. Cause he isn't quite a person or something, whatever, which I think is silly. But at the very least, it's a human being. It's an independent human being. He has the processes of life.

Brandon Robertson (38:02)

So.

Michael Knowles (38:02)

So let's get to brass tacks. Why does a woman supposedly need an abortion? And why and when would Christians tolerate that?

Brandon Robertson (38:15)

Yeah, I mean, I think most people are familiar with these arguments that a woman who, for instance, is facing severe health challenges perhaps might die if a pregnancy moves forward. I think there should be an opportunity for her to consult with her doctors and figure out whether or not it's safe and good for her to carry out that pregnancy.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (38:37)

So here you go. There Look, I predicted it. Commonly used argument tactic used to allow the wholesale killing of children in the womb is use the emotional argument of. Strong emotional argument of the life and health, health of the mother. Now I say it's strongly emotional and it's an important argument to face because those emotions make sense within a Christian worldview. Now they don't make sense within an atheistic worldview. Who cares what happens to a bag of protoplasm in this life? There's no ultimate standard above us. It doesn't really matter. So somebody's using the life and. And health of the mother as an argument to. To draw you in emotionally, to say, now we need to be able to kill children wholesale. We need to first point out that, okay, you're borrowing from the Christian worldview because only my worldview can make sense of the preservation of life and the protection of life and, you know, mothers dying because of pregnancy as something that's painful to think through or face down. And so we have to address this, okay, in what worldview does it make sense to be emotionally distraught over this painful situation? Only the Christian worldview. Okay? So we have to. Where do we get the Christian worldview? From the revelation of God, the word of God. That's how we know what the Christian world worldview is. And so that's the first thing. The next thing is that this argument is often used, and it was. It's been used a number of times against me, against us at the legislature and bills of abolition and equal protection, that we have the life and health of the mother. And one of the things I'd like to point to is the testimony that was given in Georgia by my friend who's an emergency room physician, and he has been for decades. And one of the things he pointed out in hearing, hearing during the hearing of our bill for a bill of equal protection in Georgia, which is coming up again very soon, by the way. So please go to end abortionnow.com and give financially to help us, because we have a bill in Georgia we're getting a hearing on as well. He points out in that hearing that we had that as an emergency room physician for again, decades. He said that there has never, ever, ever been a point where a woman's life, in the rare instances where a woman's life is in danger, where the physician's mind is kill the baby. And that's what people are forgetting when they say life and health of the mother. Doctors don't go, oh, your life is in danger. Kill the baby. No, when doctors, when real physicians Have a situation where you have a pregnant woman whose life, in the rare instances, is truly endangered by the pregnancy, then what doctors, real doctors, real physicians recognize in a hospital is that we're dealing with two patients. We have the mother a human being that we need to protect and preserve her life, and we have the baby a human being, and we need to protect his or her life. And so doctors recognize that we're dealing with two patients here. And what is the goal of any true physician is to protect and preserve human life. To protect and preserve human life. And what my friend said in the hearing is that at no point, point, in no instance, is our mind that her life is in danger. So kill the baby, he says, what we do is we take the baby out, we deliver the baby. And in many cases today, because of technology, technology that I was able to witness for two and a half months while I was going back and forth between two hospitals in Wisconsin, Milwaukee Children's and a hospital in Neenah, Wisconsin. Every day I was there, my wife and I would take turns. She'd fly to Wisconsin, and she'd go back and forth every day. Hospitals were two hours apart, apart. She'd visit Piper, she'd visit Nora, and she'd rest for the night, go back and do it all over again. We took turns for two and a half months doing that, flying out by ourselves just to visit our girls in two different NICUs for about two and a half months. And so we got to witness all of this. And oftentimes today, because of technology and the blessing of technology, when they have to take the baby out early, which they had to do with my girls that we adopted, they take the babies out, and then they work to preserve their lives. Mom is fine. She's okay. She's stable. And now we have two babies, and we're making sure that they live. They take. They don't go in and say, okay, this is a problem pregnancy, so let's kill the babies. They take the babies out, and in some stages, we can actually still preserve their lives. My girls are alive and well today. They're doing wonderfully, and it didn't look like it. Piper almost died a number of times in the nicu, and very scary and very sad to see her in that state, but they were able to preserve her life. Now, of course, at some stages of the pregnancy, in these rare instances where the woman's life is truly in danger, when you take the baby out, yes, the baby doesn't survive, but that's not the intentional killing of a human being. That's not abortion at will. That is a rescue operation where you're trying to protect and preserve human life. And sometimes if it's so early on, yes, it's true that we can't help that baby to survive. But that's not the intentional murdering of a human being in the womb. That's trying to protect and preserve human life. And it's a rescue operation. That's what's actually true. So when people dangle this emotional argument in front of you and they say, well, you know, the life and health of the mother, we gotta kill babies and have abortion because the life and health of the mother, that's not what we do. When her life is truly in danger, we deliver the baby, take the baby out, out, and we try to protect and preserve the lives of both patients.

Brandon Robertson (44:11)

The other common times that most people I think agree that abortion should be considered is in cases of incest, abuse, rape. And again, I think no one is.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (44:24)

Flat out instances of abuse, rape and incest. You are not going to find a person who is more strongly opposed to the issue of rape than someone like me. I have people close to me who have experienced that horrific evil. And, and let me just tell you, when it comes to what the word of God says about that capital punishment, by the way, the death penalty and what I believe, I mean, I think you're not going to find somebody more strongly opposed to the issue of rape. But we got to talk about it. So the issue of, of rape, we need to ask the question, when people bring this up, first and foremost say, okay, I think rape is an abomination and I believe that rapists deserve the death penalty. And so that's what, that's what justice will, will be for the rapist. Okay, but I have a question for you. What's wrong with rape? Why is rape wrong in your worldview? In my worldview, I know exactly why it's wrong in an abomination and deserves the death penalty. But why is rape wrong in your worldview? And someone will start saying, oh goodness, isn't it easy? Isn't it obvious? And yes, it is obvious, but come on, let's, let's get it out. What, why is it wrong? Well, you're, you're, you're taking advantage of another person's body. You're doing things to their body against their will. Okay, thank you for that very pro life argument. Because what's taking place in the issue of abortion is the violation of another person's body. It's doing things in somebody's body apart from their permission and their will. So if you're opposed to rape for those reasons, you should be opposed to the issue of abortion. The next thing is, in what other instance or category of justice do we give the death penalty to children because of the crimes of their father? We don't do that. That is opposed to everything we believe in our justice system, which by the way came from scripture. When do we say that it's proper for us to punish the children of criminals, that the child is an innocent victim, just like the woman. Now what we ought to do is not say that let's give the death penalty to the child. We should say let's pursue justice and the death penalty for rapists so that the. It, it actually has a culling effect in society where people are not emboldened to do that evil because they know that they'll die for it. Let's surround mother and baby who are both victims here with our love and protection and support. I know personally, personally a number of people who are the products of rape, and I don't believe they deserve to die. I know them, they are lovely, amazing people. And we should not say, well, you deserve to die. We should kill you because you're the product of rape. And what's amazing here is you have people who are generally leftist who are, you know, opposed to the death penalty. And so you ask them like, well, you believe in the death penalty for rapists and say, oh, no, no, no, I don't believe in death penalty for rapists. But you do believe in the death penalty for the baby. How did we get there? I mean, ask them when they bring it up. Do you believe in the death penalty for rapists? No, I don't believe in the death penalty. You don't? Yes you do. You believe in it for the baby, the innocent unborn child. You believe in the death penalty for them, but not for the rapist. Who's standing more for the woman now, the Christian or the liberal? It's the Christian who's saying death penalty for the rapist. It's the liberal who's saying death penalty for the baby and not the rapist. And so who's more opposed to rape here? So there you go, abortion.

Brandon Robertson (48:08)

I think most people are wanting some moderate abilities for people to make choices on this very, I think, gray ethical issue about when precisely life begins, that women have the opportunity, if confronted with one of these terrible situations, to choose to not move forward with a pregnancy without being thrown into prison, which is what many of these conservative states are actually Advocating for.

Michael Knowles (48:33)

Why would you say no one is pro abortion? Seems to me the women who go out and shout your abortion, for instance, are pro abortion. But I'm more interested in your take. Forget about those ladies for a second. Why is it the case that you would even be impelled to say, look, look, look, no one's pro abortion. Why not? Why wouldn't someone be pro abortion?

Brandon Robertson (48:50)

Well, precisely the reason I said I think this is a gray issue. I don't think we can know when precisely life begins. I think I'm pretty confident, based on my understanding of the science, that in the earliest stages of conception, what we.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (49:04)

Right. It's interesting. First of all, that's Brandon. Brandon Ro. And I don't think he's being honest with the facts and I don't think, I don't think he's truly an ignorant man. And it appears he's, he's not spent a lot of time at the abortion mill where they're killing the babies. Because I can tell you right now, when he says, like, nobody's like, pro abortion. Come with me to the abortion mill and just stand out there for 30 minutes and hopefully your mind will be changed. We have women that brag about it to us. That's right. I'm killing my child. It's not the first one. I killed those sorts of things. You have women who are, you know, shouting their abortion and standing outside the Supreme Court downing abortion pills during the Dobbs decision thing. And you have women who are loud and proud of their abortions. They're totally pro abortion completely. But Michael brings up a really great point here. He really does. Is okay, why is this such an issue? Why do you need to be so, oh, you know, against abortion? No one's like, really, really for it. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a tough situation. Is it? If it's not a human being from fertilization, if it's just potential life, you know, as some people say, it's, you know, just a cluster of cells or something like that. If that's the case, then why don't we treat it like the removal of a wart or a mole, right? Like no one, no one talks this way about wart removal. Like we want wart removal and mole removal and tumor removals to be safe, legal and rare.

Brandon Robertson (50:30)

Rare.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (50:31)

Like why rare? Don't we just need to get rid of them? Of course we want safe. Of course we want it to be legal. Or move these things from our body, tumors, moles and warts, those Sorts of things. But like, what's, you know, why, why safe, like that comes up safe, legal and rare. Or, you know, we're, you know, it's just, it's a sticky situation. We talked away about the removal of warts. No. Or like take the board off, like, throw it away, burn it with fire. We don't really care. It is interesting though, that as you talk about this, everyone goes, well, you know, it's a sticky situation. You want it to be rare, we want it to be rare. We're not really for it. I mean, like, in what other instance in healthcare do you talk like that? No, the only reason people talk like that in this situation is because they know, they know they can't avoid it. You can't get away from it. That's an image bearer of God. They know what's there, they know it ought not to be done, but they want to be given permission to do it. And that's why you have safe, legal and rare. And no one's really pro abortion. That's why we have that language the way that it is. Because everybody does know and Brandon knows. But like in other categories of Brandon's life, his lusts outweigh the truth, his lusts outweigh justice, his lusts outweigh righteousness, and in this case, his desires outweigh righteousness and godliness and truth and justice. And that, that's why he's fighting for, for this the way that he is. And so quick commercial break. Everybody, please, everyone take a look at this commercial. We are preparing right now for. So much is happening across the country. We have so many things, bills of abolition and equal protection happening in states across the country. Again, I mentioned Georgia, I mentioned Illinois. There's stuff happening in Texas, South Carolina, Tennessee. We've got some stuff going on in Alaska right now. We're preparing for and working towards as well. Well, so much is happening right now. The sessions are opening up in certain states across the country. And so we have a lot of work to do. We have so much work to do. Would you join me financially@endabortionnow.com, just give there help us to make our budget goal for 2026. We have a small team. We're lean, we're mean. We get a lot accomplished by the grace of God through his empowering to do what we're doing and we try to do it on as small a budget as we possibly can. Can help us to meet our budget goal for 2026, help us to equip other churches. To save more lives and help us to get these bills of abolition passed. And so endabortionnow.com is where you go. Just donate there. I'm thankful to all of you for any gift that you give and especially thankful to you guys who are giving generously to help us to accomplish this mission. We need you to do this with us, not, not just financially. Please do that. Please, please do that. But also your hands and feet. Join me in the States when I get there there to get these bills in. We do rallies, we speak at the legislature. Come with me, be a part of it with me. I definitely need you. We cannot do this by ourselves. So quick. Commercial break. Be right back. Hello everybody.

Jeff Durbin (53:24)

I'm Jeff Durbin with End abortion now@endabortionnow.com we're almost at 10 years.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (53:30)

10 years.

Jeff Durbin (53:31)

And your faithfulness together with us in this ministry has led to tens of thousands of lives being saved, literally saved from death. Not only United States, America, but around the world nations like Germany, Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and others. Ten years ago when we started this ministry, we had three goals. One, we wanted to raise up and equip local churches to do what we were doing at Apologia Church, to go to the abortion mills, to go to where they were actually taking the lives of these children, to go with the gospel, to go with hope, to go with peace, to save lives where they're being taken. And since that time, literally ten tens of thousands of lives have been saved and over a thousand local churches have been raised up and equipped to do exactly that. They're out this very day saving lives. Thanks to your giving and your prayers and your support, we've been able to communicate the gospel explicitly as Christians with the word of God in this area of abortion through our media platforms. And tens of millions of people have been impacted by that concept and have had their hearts and minds changed or ignited over this issue. Thank you for being with us in this. We've also been able to get bills of abolition and equal protection across the United States of America. It has truly been mind blowing how God has been working through local churches, pastors and Christians to actually establish justice at the legislature next session in 2026. We have Bill of abolition and equal protection happening once again across the United States of America. States like Tennessee, Georgia, Texas, and a new one that's never happened before in Illinois. We are so close to once and for all abolishing this and truly criminalizing it so it ends in one of the states, Georgia. We have about 25% of the house of Representatives, the Republicans there as co sponsors on our bill of abolition. That in itself is historic. This takes so much effort and so much work and we need you with us. We need your partnership, we need you to join us when we get to states with these bills, to rally there together with us to call the legislators there to demand justice. We need you to have your church sign up. You get trained for free. You get equipped for free. We want nothing from your church. We want to just simply raise your church up to go and save lives. Will you do this again with me in 2026? Will you help me to be done with this ministry, to stop doing it? That is our heart's desire. Prayerfully consider giving generously to endabortionnow.com for 2026. Every bit of your giving, all of your praying helps to actually save lives literally from death. Brothers and sisters, from the bottom of my heart, I'm going to thank you, all of you who have been with us since the very beginning in this. God has done things beyond my ability to comprehend. It's a humbling experience to be a part of this ministry and I'm going to ask you to please be with us again in 2026. Will you help us to abolish this, to end this in Jesus name? Go to endabortionnow.com to give there and don't forget to keep checking@endabortionnow.com and please keep checking in with us so you know what's happening across the country country and so you can help us not just financially but also with your very hands and your very feet. Again, I want to thank you so much for doing this ministry with me. Endabortion now.com thank you.

Brandon Robertson (57:04)

Foreign.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (57:12)

Welcome back everybody. Doing more with Michael Knowles and Brandon Robertson. Thank you guys so much for being with me today and listening to this broadcast. It's important, I know that this conversation is a heavy one and I know a lot of times we all get worn out by it. I'm oftentimes worn out by it. But it's not done yet. It's not over yet. Yet. There's no abortion free state in our nation. Abortion numbers are rising after Dobbs. That is a fact. Abortion numbers are rising after Dobbs and so we have still work to do. This isn't abolished yet. We need to make sure we're not quiet about this because I think a lot of people have fallen back into indifference and, and they've many people have been. I honestly I'm gonna be Careful which words I use. But deceived in many ways to, to believe that we have abortion free states or somehow we've accomplished our mission. We haven't. Not in any state. It is still legal to kill your children in the womb in every single state in our union. Every single state in our union. Even the abortion mills that are gone from certain states haven't stopped the, the legal nature of a woman taking the life of her child in her womb in any state in our union. And so we have a lot of work to do do. And so that's why this conversation is happening right now. Please do all the things, guys, to make sure we can get this, this conversation out. Do the like thing, the share thing. YouTube likes that and all the platforms like that so that you can get this conversation far and wide. And here we go. This is a little later in the conversation, about 29 minutes in. We'll stop, we'll finish after this clip.

Brandon Robertson (58:45)

The bigger question that we're actually debating about here is whether this, this practice should be criminalized.

Michael Knowles (58:52)

Okay, last question, last question. Because you say, look, you don't have this clear cut view of the far left. You have this murky view. You know, it's all just kind of murky. We don't know. We just don't know.

Brandon Robertson (59:00)

It is. Life is pretty murky, Michael.

Michael Knowles (59:02)

Okay, so if that's murky, then do you, when there's murkiness over the question of is it murder to perform a certain action, as you say, do you think it's better to err on the side of the caution or on the side of liberality? That is, if we don't really know at what point it becomes murder to perform an abortion, should we err on the side of doing abortions or not doing abortions?

Brandon Robertson (59:29)

I agree with you that we should err on the side of caution, which is why those who advocate for abortion and the scientists that work on pregnancies.

Michael Knowles (59:36)

But you've pointed out scientists have no, it's above their pay grade, this question.

Brandon Robertson (59:40)

Well, I said the church. It's above their pay grade. But I think, think the point here is that.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (59:44)

And there you go, right? Do you hear it? That's Brandon Robertson's worldview. You have to take that into account when you're engaging with him because it really is an epistemological question. That's the question of knowledge. How do you know? How do you know? How do you have certainty? How do you get knowledge on at all? But also on this subject, how well you know, epistemologically how do you know that? And for him, what did he say? What did Brandon say? Say it's his worldview. It's, it's how he comes to knowledge. It's above the pay grade of the church. The church can't know with certainty because according to Brandon Robertson, God can't communicate clearly enough and straightforwardly enough so that we can know with certainty. I mean, when you say things like, but Brandon, are we called by God to love our neighbors as we love ourselves? Yeah, we know that. We know that. Okay, well, the Bible has also says other things besides that in Leviticus and that from the words of Jesus quoted from Leviticus, it says a lot more, and it says a lot more about the womb and it says a lot more about the creation of life and all of that. And, and so. But Brandon Robertson says it's above the pay grade of the church, meaning don't use the word of God on this subject. And what's interesting here is that not only does Brandon Robertson reject what the word of God says about human life and the image bearer of God in the womb, he rejects that. And it's above the pay grade of the church. You guys can't talk about that. But actually the truth is when he talks about scientists and the issue of biology, he also has already rejected their testimony because there's no question at all that from the moment of fertilization you have a unique human life at that very moment. So he is saying, no, that's not true. It's just potential. Like he's just ignoring the biology, he's ignoring the scientists. So he ignores the word of God, he ignores the church and he ignores the scientist and the biology and the. And that is clear.

Brandon Robertson (61:41)

We do have some general consensus that what is happening with an egg and a sperm coming together in a womb is not a human being. It's a potential for life. And so yes, I, that, that needs.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (61:53)

To be like a meme. Somebody create that as a meme next to like, statement after statement after statement of biologists and scientists clearly, clearly explaining what takes place at the moment of fertilization. He actually said that publicly, that at the moment of fertilization it is not a human life. What kind of life is it? Like I said, feline, canine, what is it? What kind of life is it? Because it biologically is defined as life and it's a certain kind of life. And so what is, is human life from the moment of fertilization and what we know today about DNA and the human genome and what's taking place from that very moment is stunning in terms of the uniqueness of every single human being from the moment of fertilization. It's all right there. And Brandon Robertson ignores all of it.

Brandon Robertson (62:52)

There are some serious ethical questions when we get into late term abortions, although I don't think those should be criminalized.

Michael Knowles (62:59)

You don't even think the late term abortion should be criminalized. What happened to your reasonable, your view now appears to be no different than the far left. It's just they speak with moral certainty and you say it's all ambiguous.

Brandon Robertson (63:10)

Well, no, I think that if your wife is the one laying in a hospital with a potential for death, that is a really hard moral choice to have to do.

Pastor Jeff Durbin (63:19)

You see it, There it is again. There it is again. And it's even in the issue of late term abortions. What does he do? Oh, I can't win this one. This is totally ethically a failure and obvious to everybody. Late term abortion. I mean, even radical leftists would be like, ew, that's a little icky. I mean, it's a little too big and obvious and obscene. And so we don't want those late term ones. But what he's saying is, no, we can't criminalize even that. And so you press, you pressure him on that. Like, are you serious? Like a nine month gestation and not criminal. Right. And he says, well, you know, like the situation with a, with a woman and her health is in danger and those sorts of things. Yeah, what we do in those instances is they go to a hospital and they induce labor or they do a C section. They don't go, oh, you know, your life's in danger. So let's go in there and let's disembowel and let's decapitate the baby inside of you because your life's in danger. What do they do? They remove the baby. That's what we do. Induce the labor or they do a C section. My girls at 29 weeks gestation were taken via C section. It was an emergency labor. Her life was in danger. And so they took my twin Girls out at 29 weeks. They did not go, oh, her life's in danger. This is super serious, serious. Let's go ahead and kill those babies. Do you see the point? It's all just leftist talking points. It has no basis in reality. Doctors don't do that. They don't say, oh, nine months, eight months gestation, we're having problems, let's kill the baby, let's make sure we kill the baby, it doesn't happen. That's not what takes place. Brandon Robertson is undeniably ignorant. All of this is is just leftist talking points to justify the unethical, unjustified taking of human life. That's all it is. And Brandon, if you get a chance to see this, I'd love for you to come on and try to defend this with me. Please do so. Please take the time to come and sit with me to discuss this because it's very important you were courageous enough to have this conversation publicly to say these things, things I'd like to see you come and try to defend this right here. Matter of fact, let's fly you out. Let's do it face to face. And, and I think it's an important conversation to have. Thank you guys for joining me right now on this special episode of Apologia Radio. Thankful for all of you guys. Don't forget to go to apologiastudios.com Sign up for all access, partner with us in ministry, help us to accomplish all that we're accomplishing. And especially don't forget to go to endabortionnow.com and give financially to help us to get to our budget goal for 2026. Literally tens of thousands of babies have been saved as a result of the ministry of EndabortionNow.com and big thank you to all of you guys who have been doing this ministry with me since the very beginning by giving financially. Thank you to you. Also because of this ministry, we've been able to communicate the truth in this area and to refute these very bad positions that are leading to the lives of these children being taken across social media and all these platforms. I mean, just tens of millions of people have been impacted by that. But also when you give, don't forget, you're helping us to get all these bills of abolition not only in, but also, Lord willing, by his grace and according to his power, passed in states across the United States of America. We are working to give equal protection to all humans from fertilization. We are working to protect and preserve human life. We are working to save these children from death and to rescue them, those who are stumbling to the slaughter. And that's the of cause call of God in the book of Proverbs. And that's the call towards the Christian church. What we do to the fatherless children in our midst matters to God. It matters to God. So please help us go to endabortionnow.com give there. Thank you guys so much. And thank you guys for being a part of this with us for the next year. We appreciate you. We long for the day. We long for the day where we never ever ask for another penny for this. We don't want to do this anymore. You've heard me say that a lot. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't. We don't want to do it anymore, but we're not done. Justice hasn't been established yet, so we're not done. And until then, we're going to do this. But we long for the day where we close the doors and we stop talking about this issue and we're on to the next thing. And so thank you guys so much. Don't forget to share this across your platforms. Thank you for being a part of this ministry with me. I'll catch you next time. Right here.

Sponsor Representative (67:56)

This video is brought to you by Amtech Blades. We are very excited to be partnering with Amtech tech. Bill Rapier, long time Navy Seal, DevGur operator, amazing brother and friend. Looking for a battle axe to carry on your person to chop some wood. They've got you covered. Looking for a blade to carry on you every day. Also got you covered. Look at this. I gotta check my mail. What do we got going on here? Oh, look how sharp that is. What is this? Oh, 5% off. You can go to amtechblades.com, put apology in the coupon co code, get 5% off your order and he will match that and give 5% to End Abortion Now. Again, amtechblades.com we're grateful for them. Check them out.